Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Money Management
[email protected]
-=-... for about 9 months now. I was hoping that giving them their own money would help them learn . . . -=-
"I was hoping" sounds like you've already given up.
Nine months is a very short time.
They WILL learn, if you don't give up. And I think they'll learn more quickly if you stop the running commentary, and let them feel their own feelings and have their own thoughts about it.
-=- I also was getting really tired of constant begging for things. I understand that when we go into a store, we want things - and I certainly bought many treats and things (actually my husband felt I did this too much - and that was the reason for the continual begging).-=-
Maybe only take one to the store at a time?
Maybe when they say "I want this," say "Let's put it on a list when we get home," and the desire might pass or it might grow stronger. That's a way to say "yes" or "maybe" instead of "NO, stop whining."
I've never dealt with "continual begging," and without knowing the family dynamics I can't guess what would cause it, but if kids are happy and distracted and feeling talked to and seen when they're in the store, they might have less need and opportunity to "beg."
-=-I don't know - but they all seem to have a disregard for their stuff no matter how much they like it, or how expensive it is.-=-
That's a separate issue.
Are you helping make it easier for them to take care of things? Good storage, privacy, assistance picking things up and putting them in safe places? Most little kids can't begin to do that on their own, and until they CAN do it on their own, especially as it's bothering you, I think you should do it for them and with them.
We still have game pieces to games my kids had when they were VERY small, because when we finished playing a game, I always helped them put the game away. If we found a piece of a game or puzzle, we put it in the lost parts drawer, and would eventually put it with the right game. Because I made an effort to take care of things and to help them keep their parts and pieces safe and together, they did it for my things and each others' things (and still do).
"Was hoping" again. You consider it a failed "experiment" after less than a year, it seems.
-=-I explain this. . . -=-
You're trying to teach instead of letting them learn.
-=-I explain this, and they seem to agree and then on the way out they will buy candy - or put money in those machines with the plastic bubbles. -=-
My guess is they're agreeing with you so you'll stop talking, or they acknowledge that they KNOW they could save their money, and then they make a choice and you don't like it.
-=- I suppose I could look at this . . . but I am of the mindset that generally you get what you pay for with things.. . .I have such a hard time . . . I would think that they would figure this out. . .'
A lot of "I" in one paragraph, and too much thinking about money you've already freely given to your kids. Let it be free and good and happy!
-=-So, I know they are not deprived ;-) -=-
Yet you mentioned constant begging.
Sandra
"I was hoping" sounds like you've already given up.
Nine months is a very short time.
They WILL learn, if you don't give up. And I think they'll learn more quickly if you stop the running commentary, and let them feel their own feelings and have their own thoughts about it.
-=- I also was getting really tired of constant begging for things. I understand that when we go into a store, we want things - and I certainly bought many treats and things (actually my husband felt I did this too much - and that was the reason for the continual begging).-=-
Maybe only take one to the store at a time?
Maybe when they say "I want this," say "Let's put it on a list when we get home," and the desire might pass or it might grow stronger. That's a way to say "yes" or "maybe" instead of "NO, stop whining."
I've never dealt with "continual begging," and without knowing the family dynamics I can't guess what would cause it, but if kids are happy and distracted and feeling talked to and seen when they're in the store, they might have less need and opportunity to "beg."
-=-I don't know - but they all seem to have a disregard for their stuff no matter how much they like it, or how expensive it is.-=-
That's a separate issue.
Are you helping make it easier for them to take care of things? Good storage, privacy, assistance picking things up and putting them in safe places? Most little kids can't begin to do that on their own, and until they CAN do it on their own, especially as it's bothering you, I think you should do it for them and with them.
We still have game pieces to games my kids had when they were VERY small, because when we finished playing a game, I always helped them put the game away. If we found a piece of a game or puzzle, we put it in the lost parts drawer, and would eventually put it with the right game. Because I made an effort to take care of things and to help them keep their parts and pieces safe and together, they did it for my things and each others' things (and still do).
>-=- I was hoping that this would wear off, and they would start to see that when they see something that is like $10 it is attainable in a couple weeks if they save.-=-
"Was hoping" again. You consider it a failed "experiment" after less than a year, it seems.
-=-I explain this. . . -=-
You're trying to teach instead of letting them learn.
-=-I explain this, and they seem to agree and then on the way out they will buy candy - or put money in those machines with the plastic bubbles. -=-
My guess is they're agreeing with you so you'll stop talking, or they acknowledge that they KNOW they could save their money, and then they make a choice and you don't like it.
-=- I suppose I could look at this . . . but I am of the mindset that generally you get what you pay for with things.. . .I have such a hard time . . . I would think that they would figure this out. . .'
A lot of "I" in one paragraph, and too much thinking about money you've already freely given to your kids. Let it be free and good and happy!
-=-So, I know they are not deprived ;-) -=-
Yet you mentioned constant begging.
Sandra
Angela S
Nine months isn't very long for learning a life long lesson. It seems like
the short term value of the low quality toys is worth it to them right now.
How old are they anyway? Kids don't always enjoy playing with junky toys.
They'll outgrow that with time, I would think.
When I was growing up, my parents never told me how to spend my money. I
earned it baby sitting, working in a pizza parlor, and sometimes when I was
younger, I got an allowance. Until I was on my own, I was always pretty
generous with my money. I would take my friends to fairs and I'd buy them
things and take them on rides, if I could afford it. It was worth it to me
to have my friends with me.
That didn't stop me from becoming a pretty frugal adult who thinks carefully
about every purchase made. In fact, I am one of the most careful people
with money that I know. I think it's very possible that a big part of the
reason that I don't have issues with money is because I always made my own
choices and I learned from my mistakes. I am glad my parents allowed me the
freedom to do that when I was still under their roof. I know way too many
adults who are who are just now learning from their mistakes when there are
harsher consequences for the mistakes than just a house full of low quality
toys.
I think kids are better off with the freedom to spend their money however
they wish without any judgmental looks or remarks from their parents. You
can't learn their lesson for them. If they ask your opinion on the quality
of something then give it. Otherwise I'd save my breath. When the value of
the toys is less than the value of the money <to them> then they'll stop
buying them.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the short term value of the low quality toys is worth it to them right now.
How old are they anyway? Kids don't always enjoy playing with junky toys.
They'll outgrow that with time, I would think.
When I was growing up, my parents never told me how to spend my money. I
earned it baby sitting, working in a pizza parlor, and sometimes when I was
younger, I got an allowance. Until I was on my own, I was always pretty
generous with my money. I would take my friends to fairs and I'd buy them
things and take them on rides, if I could afford it. It was worth it to me
to have my friends with me.
That didn't stop me from becoming a pretty frugal adult who thinks carefully
about every purchase made. In fact, I am one of the most careful people
with money that I know. I think it's very possible that a big part of the
reason that I don't have issues with money is because I always made my own
choices and I learned from my mistakes. I am glad my parents allowed me the
freedom to do that when I was still under their roof. I know way too many
adults who are who are just now learning from their mistakes when there are
harsher consequences for the mistakes than just a house full of low quality
toys.
I think kids are better off with the freedom to spend their money however
they wish without any judgmental looks or remarks from their parents. You
can't learn their lesson for them. If they ask your opinion on the quality
of something then give it. Otherwise I'd save my breath. When the value of
the toys is less than the value of the money <to them> then they'll stop
buying them.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Feb 9, 2005, at 5:50 PM, Heather Woodward wrote:
doing that. Stop thinking about it, much less talking about it. It is
kind of meanspirited, Heather, to give them money and then be
judgmental about how they spend it. Heck, if you did that to me, I'd
spend it on what I knew you disapproved of, just because it would feel
kind of like a dirty trick to me.
They WILL learn - but you're corrupting their learning process by
making YOUR judgment part of it.
ENJOY their purchases with gusto. "Wow, look how much stuff you got!!"
"How was the candy? Good? Oh good!!" "That's a cute little toy - what
does it do?"
Commiserate with them when a cheaply made little toy breaks. "I'm so
sorry, how disappointing." "I know that little toy didn't last long,
but I bet you had fun with it while it lasted, right?"
Talking and spreading your angst is not going to teach them anything
except that you're somebody who sucks the joy out of spending a few
dollars.
You can share your own thoughts when it is about YOUR own spending.
Maybe a little letting your inner voice out <G> such as, "Hmmmm, I
could get 10 plastic cups for $5 or just 5 of these for $5. I think
I'll get the more expensive ones even though I get fewer of them - they
seem like they'll last longer."
If you're worried about the environment - then, again, use your own
purchases to show that. They'll learn from what you do.
But - really - don't give the kids their own money and then talk at
them about what they spend it on. That's just not very nice.
-pam
> and others may think "Oh, that's wasteful!" so I probably need toStop it - you gave THEM the money to make their own choices and they're
> lighten up. I am just so worried that they will never figure this out.
> An I have environmental "angst" at the amount of stuff that comes in
> our house and goes out the trash.
doing that. Stop thinking about it, much less talking about it. It is
kind of meanspirited, Heather, to give them money and then be
judgmental about how they spend it. Heck, if you did that to me, I'd
spend it on what I knew you disapproved of, just because it would feel
kind of like a dirty trick to me.
They WILL learn - but you're corrupting their learning process by
making YOUR judgment part of it.
ENJOY their purchases with gusto. "Wow, look how much stuff you got!!"
"How was the candy? Good? Oh good!!" "That's a cute little toy - what
does it do?"
Commiserate with them when a cheaply made little toy breaks. "I'm so
sorry, how disappointing." "I know that little toy didn't last long,
but I bet you had fun with it while it lasted, right?"
Talking and spreading your angst is not going to teach them anything
except that you're somebody who sucks the joy out of spending a few
dollars.
You can share your own thoughts when it is about YOUR own spending.
Maybe a little letting your inner voice out <G> such as, "Hmmmm, I
could get 10 plastic cups for $5 or just 5 of these for $5. I think
I'll get the more expensive ones even though I get fewer of them - they
seem like they'll last longer."
If you're worried about the environment - then, again, use your own
purchases to show that. They'll learn from what you do.
But - really - don't give the kids their own money and then talk at
them about what they spend it on. That's just not very nice.
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
On Feb 9, 2005, at 8:43 PM, Heather Woodward wrote:
I'm glad you took what I said in the spirit I intended it, Heather.
-pam
> --ENJOY their purchases with gusto. "Wow, look how much stuff youLook into their eyes, not at the cheap little plastic junk.
> got!!"
> "How was the candy? Good? Oh good!!" "That's a cute little toy - what
> does it do?"--
>
> To really feel this though is the part I am struggling with. I am
> having a really hard time doing this,
I'm glad you took what I said in the spirit I intended it, Heather.
-pam
virgil leggett
I can remember buying the little trinkets that fell apart when I was young. I'm glad I learned from that, but I feel bad that my mother let me waste all that money on junk. I wish I could have had the guidance to see the wisdom in saving for something nicer.
I think part of the problem was that the only place we usually shopped was the grocery store, and all they had for toys was cheap junk. My mother liked to get us something (I'm sure we begged) everytime we went to the store, but it was always cheap.
I think the reason kids beg is because they want to feel like their parents care enough about them to spend money on them.
I always kicked myself for not being able to save money because I always wanted so many little cheap things. I still have trouble saving money. It's like, maybe the habit stuck.
This is just to present a different view. There is merit to helping your children understand the value of quality merchandise.
Sometimes we still have to make mistakes to learn. I'm bad about having to learn everything the hard way--by experience--instead of listening to sound advice. I think it's because I'm a puzzle-worker. I love mysteries, being able to solve things myself. I'm addicted to the euphoria of conquering a problem myself instead of someone else squashing my achievement by explaining how to do it.
________________________________________________________________
Sent via the WebMail system at 1st.net
I think part of the problem was that the only place we usually shopped was the grocery store, and all they had for toys was cheap junk. My mother liked to get us something (I'm sure we begged) everytime we went to the store, but it was always cheap.
I think the reason kids beg is because they want to feel like their parents care enough about them to spend money on them.
I always kicked myself for not being able to save money because I always wanted so many little cheap things. I still have trouble saving money. It's like, maybe the habit stuck.
This is just to present a different view. There is merit to helping your children understand the value of quality merchandise.
Sometimes we still have to make mistakes to learn. I'm bad about having to learn everything the hard way--by experience--instead of listening to sound advice. I think it's because I'm a puzzle-worker. I love mysteries, being able to solve things myself. I'm addicted to the euphoria of conquering a problem myself instead of someone else squashing my achievement by explaining how to do it.
________________________________________________________________
Sent via the WebMail system at 1st.net
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/8/05 7:50:06 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
<< Commiserate with them when a cheaply made little toy breaks. "I'm so
sorry, how disappointing." "I know that little toy didn't last long,
but I bet you had fun with it while it lasted, right?" >>
Right.
Without a sermon on "I told you so" and without any tales of savings and
interest.
I recommend you watch Mary Poppins, yourself (kids might want to too!) and
pay very close attention to the song about putting tuppence in the bank, and to
"Feed the Birds."
It will be therapeutic, philosophically.
-=-Talking and spreading your angst is not going to teach them anything
except that you're somebody who sucks the joy out of spending a few
dollars.-=-
Cheap toys cost $1.
If they last an hour, that's not bad.
Psychotherapy or counselling costs around $100 an hour.
Don't invest your motherly input now on future need for therapy.
Sandra
<< Commiserate with them when a cheaply made little toy breaks. "I'm so
sorry, how disappointing." "I know that little toy didn't last long,
but I bet you had fun with it while it lasted, right?" >>
Right.
Without a sermon on "I told you so" and without any tales of savings and
interest.
I recommend you watch Mary Poppins, yourself (kids might want to too!) and
pay very close attention to the song about putting tuppence in the bank, and to
"Feed the Birds."
It will be therapeutic, philosophically.
-=-Talking and spreading your angst is not going to teach them anything
except that you're somebody who sucks the joy out of spending a few
dollars.-=-
Cheap toys cost $1.
If they last an hour, that's not bad.
Psychotherapy or counselling costs around $100 an hour.
Don't invest your motherly input now on future need for therapy.
Sandra
nellebelle
Could you take the children to thrift stores or garage sales so they could buy used quality items at prices they can afford?
Do you give allowance in big enough chunks so they don't have to save very long for something that costs more?
Just a couple more ideas.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Do you give allowance in big enough chunks so they don't have to save very long for something that costs more?
Just a couple more ideas.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Feb 9, 2005, at 4:54 AM, virgil leggett wrote:
of helping them understand the value of quality merchandise.
But we may not agree about what IS a good way to help them understand
that.
Giving them money and then harping on them about what they're buying
with it is not going to help them learn it. I think letting them
experiment will. I don't think mommy being a spoilsport is useful at
all - and just makes HER the negative, rather than the cheap toys
themselves.
But talking about purchases and quality and why I'm making the buying
decisions I'm making is useful, over time, in helping them.
If my kids were with me in the grocery store and they wanted those
little plastic bubble toys from a machine, we'd do it sometimes - there
is something fun about getting them that way. But if they wanted it
EVERY week, then we'd perhaps talk about maybe putting that money in an
envelope instead and saving it up for something specific that they
wanted. I mean - if I was concerned and seeing a problem, I can see
trying to find some way of doing something different.
But not with THEIR money. I wouldn't give them money and then try to
control how they spend it - directly or indirectly.
-pam
>You didn't present a different view, though. We all agree in the merit
> This is just to present a different view. There is merit to helping
> your children understand the value of quality merchandise.
of helping them understand the value of quality merchandise.
But we may not agree about what IS a good way to help them understand
that.
Giving them money and then harping on them about what they're buying
with it is not going to help them learn it. I think letting them
experiment will. I don't think mommy being a spoilsport is useful at
all - and just makes HER the negative, rather than the cheap toys
themselves.
But talking about purchases and quality and why I'm making the buying
decisions I'm making is useful, over time, in helping them.
If my kids were with me in the grocery store and they wanted those
little plastic bubble toys from a machine, we'd do it sometimes - there
is something fun about getting them that way. But if they wanted it
EVERY week, then we'd perhaps talk about maybe putting that money in an
envelope instead and saving it up for something specific that they
wanted. I mean - if I was concerned and seeing a problem, I can see
trying to find some way of doing something different.
But not with THEIR money. I wouldn't give them money and then try to
control how they spend it - directly or indirectly.
-pam
cslkll
Heather, it is really hard for me to watch my kids
spend their money too! Dh and I have had many talks
about this, and we always come back to the fact that
it is their money. Sometimes we do talk to them about
saving up for something big. They hear us talk about
saving up for something, so I feel this is not out of
the norm for them to hear. It doesn't really change
how they spend though :) One question that keeps
coming up lately from my kids is, they want to know how
much money we have. I wouldn't be uncomfortable sharing
this, but dh is. How have others handled that? I think
it might be great for them to see what our monthly intake
is, and a breakdown of how it is spent. krista
portions of this message have been removed]
spend their money too! Dh and I have had many talks
about this, and we always come back to the fact that
it is their money. Sometimes we do talk to them about
saving up for something big. They hear us talk about
saving up for something, so I feel this is not out of
the norm for them to hear. It doesn't really change
how they spend though :) One question that keeps
coming up lately from my kids is, they want to know how
much money we have. I wouldn't be uncomfortable sharing
this, but dh is. How have others handled that? I think
it might be great for them to see what our monthly intake
is, and a breakdown of how it is spent. krista
portions of this message have been removed]
Heather Woodward
I had a question regarding kids learning to manage money. We have been giving our kids an allowance for about 9 months now. I was hoping that giving them their own money would help them learn to save up and buy something they wanted themselves. I also was getting really tired of constant begging for things. I understand that when we go into a store, we want things - and I certainly bought many treats and things (actually my husband felt I did this too much - and that was the reason for the continual begging). I don't know - but they all seem to have a disregard for their stuff no matter how much they like it, or how expensive it is. I also have personal problems with continual buying just for the sake of it. Having so many toys and dollar store type items that they break in a day or so seems so wasteful. I am not saying that once in a while this is a bad thing, but when it becomes every time we got to the store it bothers me. I keep thinking "Geez - we have so much stuff at home! and no one takes care of it!"
So, now I thought having their own money and having to make their own choices about it would help. They choose more often than not to spend all of it right away on candy or stuffed animals. I was hoping that this would wear off, and they would start to see that when they see something that is like $10 it is attainable in a couple weeks if they save. I explain this, and they seem to agree and then on the way out they will buy candy - or put money in those machines with the plastic bubbles.
Even with gift cards, instead of buying one or two well made, or higher priced items that they seem to really want - it seems that it is quantity they want. I suppose I could look at this a type of money management - getting as many things as possible for one price ;-) but I am of the mindset that generally you get what you pay for with things. And inevitably the candy is gone, the cheap toys are broken and they are left with nothing. I have such a hard time with the sadness that inevitably happens when something cheap breaks and it usually happens relatively quickly. I would think that they would figure this out and the next five times they would choose differently. It is also not like these are the only times they get candy or cheap toys. So, I know they are not deprived ;-)
This may all be my problem and maybe it is their ages or whatever. I know that it is similar with all of us. We all have things that we like to spend money on, and others may think "Oh, that's wasteful!" so I probably need to lighten up. I am just so worried that they will never figure this out. An I have environmental "angst" at the amount of stuff that comes in our house and goes out the trash.
So, what are others suggestions on this? I feel like my talking about all the issues wastefulness, environmental concerns, etc. is constantly rain on their parade.... How do you go about helping your kids with money and money issues?
Thanks -
Heather
PS Oh - their ages are 10, 7 & 6
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
So, now I thought having their own money and having to make their own choices about it would help. They choose more often than not to spend all of it right away on candy or stuffed animals. I was hoping that this would wear off, and they would start to see that when they see something that is like $10 it is attainable in a couple weeks if they save. I explain this, and they seem to agree and then on the way out they will buy candy - or put money in those machines with the plastic bubbles.
Even with gift cards, instead of buying one or two well made, or higher priced items that they seem to really want - it seems that it is quantity they want. I suppose I could look at this a type of money management - getting as many things as possible for one price ;-) but I am of the mindset that generally you get what you pay for with things. And inevitably the candy is gone, the cheap toys are broken and they are left with nothing. I have such a hard time with the sadness that inevitably happens when something cheap breaks and it usually happens relatively quickly. I would think that they would figure this out and the next five times they would choose differently. It is also not like these are the only times they get candy or cheap toys. So, I know they are not deprived ;-)
This may all be my problem and maybe it is their ages or whatever. I know that it is similar with all of us. We all have things that we like to spend money on, and others may think "Oh, that's wasteful!" so I probably need to lighten up. I am just so worried that they will never figure this out. An I have environmental "angst" at the amount of stuff that comes in our house and goes out the trash.
So, what are others suggestions on this? I feel like my talking about all the issues wastefulness, environmental concerns, etc. is constantly rain on their parade.... How do you go about helping your kids with money and money issues?
Thanks -
Heather
PS Oh - their ages are 10, 7 & 6
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamale Teitelbaum
Tonight we were in China town in NYC. We go out every
year for Chinese New Year. There are tons of small
trinket stores that sell first edition and limited
edition yug-i-oh cards. Well, my sons got quite a bit
of money for hanukah this year and were looking at
these cards (costing $5 to $40 for one card) and I
told them (they each had about $30 left)
My dh was with us and I just knew he'd have big beef
with the idea of my guys spending so much $$ on cards
that half the time end up all over the floor. Keep in
mind that this is after we spent $30 (easy) on snaps
and the big (and totally cool) confetti poppers.
That's what? half a minute of excitement and then
that's it. I just thought his objections were so
arbitrary. Sure, I wouldn't go out and spend big $ on
yug-i-oh cards nor $50 on a computer game (dh would)
but my kids and dh wouldn't spend $100 on a pair of
shoes, or a sweater (and If I really liked it, I
would). BTW, my older son did spend all his $$ on two
cards and I think it's great that he was able to
acquire something that gave him so much joy.
I tried to talk to dh about respecting ds' choices,
after all, it is his $. I put forth that giving him
the freedom to spend $ would help him understand the
process (in a way that makes sense for him) and that
trying to control him would make him feel denied and
deprived, but dh wasn't hearing it. What is it about
$ that can makes us so crazy? When it comes to power
struggles over behavior, manners and such, dh
understands unschooling principles, but $ and bedtimes
- those are tough for him.
I guess it always comes back to examining (and
reexamining) our own values as shaped by our own
childhoods. When dh and my older son were having
conflicts b/c ds wouldn't 'do what dh was saying', we
talked about his own father, and how controling,
punitive and arbitrary he was in his parenting, and in
that context, my point made more sense.
Just some thoughts :)
Pamela
momma to Joshua (8) and Aaron (6)
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
year for Chinese New Year. There are tons of small
trinket stores that sell first edition and limited
edition yug-i-oh cards. Well, my sons got quite a bit
of money for hanukah this year and were looking at
these cards (costing $5 to $40 for one card) and I
told them (they each had about $30 left)
My dh was with us and I just knew he'd have big beef
with the idea of my guys spending so much $$ on cards
that half the time end up all over the floor. Keep in
mind that this is after we spent $30 (easy) on snaps
and the big (and totally cool) confetti poppers.
That's what? half a minute of excitement and then
that's it. I just thought his objections were so
arbitrary. Sure, I wouldn't go out and spend big $ on
yug-i-oh cards nor $50 on a computer game (dh would)
but my kids and dh wouldn't spend $100 on a pair of
shoes, or a sweater (and If I really liked it, I
would). BTW, my older son did spend all his $$ on two
cards and I think it's great that he was able to
acquire something that gave him so much joy.
I tried to talk to dh about respecting ds' choices,
after all, it is his $. I put forth that giving him
the freedom to spend $ would help him understand the
process (in a way that makes sense for him) and that
trying to control him would make him feel denied and
deprived, but dh wasn't hearing it. What is it about
$ that can makes us so crazy? When it comes to power
struggles over behavior, manners and such, dh
understands unschooling principles, but $ and bedtimes
- those are tough for him.
I guess it always comes back to examining (and
reexamining) our own values as shaped by our own
childhoods. When dh and my older son were having
conflicts b/c ds wouldn't 'do what dh was saying', we
talked about his own father, and how controling,
punitive and arbitrary he was in his parenting, and in
that context, my point made more sense.
Just some thoughts :)
Pamela
momma to Joshua (8) and Aaron (6)
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
Heather Woodward
Thanks for your input.
--I've never dealt with "continual begging," and without knowing the family dynamics I can't guess what would cause it, but if kids are happy and distracted and feeling talked to and seen when they're in the store, they might have less need and opportunity to "beg."--
It could be that what I term "begging" is more like asking for things all the time. In other words, there are no tantrum fits or anything if we can't buy it all. I think the crux of this on my end is money. And this could very well, be why I am so worried about it all. Working within our budget is not always easy. I think I am stressed at not having enough at the end of the week. Maybe sitting down and making a list beforehand and saying "Ok, pick one or two things you'd like to get" would work better. It doesn't seem like it would be a big deal if they asked for a candy bar - but it all adds up when it is constant.
--We still have game pieces to games my kids had when they were VERY small, because when we finished playing a game, I always helped them put the game away. If we found a piece of a game or puzzle, we put it in the lost parts drawer, and would eventually put it with the right game. Because I made an effort to take care of things and to help them keep their parts and pieces safe and together, they did it for my things and each others' things (and still do).--
That is a really good - I think I don't do this enough. I am not really good at this myself (organizing) When we have lost game pieces I know I have stuck them somewhere... but can never remember where. I'll have to make a space in a drawer for this.
--You're trying to teach instead of letting them learn.--
Yes, I can feel it in myself that "make them" feeling. And I am trying to not "show" it - but of course that is impossible and rather dishonest.
--My guess is they're agreeing with you so you'll stop talking, or they acknowledge that they KNOW they could save their money, and then they make a choice and you don't like it.--
Yeah - I can picture that.
-=-So, I know they are not deprived ;-)
Yet you mentioned constant begging.--
See that's the part that I don't understand. I realize that logically if they had everything they wanted, they would not feel deprived. But how much is enough? Does it become a habit if we buy candy every time we go to the grocery store, or the convienent store for milk - is it then expected every time? And if kids don't expect it every time is it because they know if they ask they will get it.?
Heather
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--I've never dealt with "continual begging," and without knowing the family dynamics I can't guess what would cause it, but if kids are happy and distracted and feeling talked to and seen when they're in the store, they might have less need and opportunity to "beg."--
It could be that what I term "begging" is more like asking for things all the time. In other words, there are no tantrum fits or anything if we can't buy it all. I think the crux of this on my end is money. And this could very well, be why I am so worried about it all. Working within our budget is not always easy. I think I am stressed at not having enough at the end of the week. Maybe sitting down and making a list beforehand and saying "Ok, pick one or two things you'd like to get" would work better. It doesn't seem like it would be a big deal if they asked for a candy bar - but it all adds up when it is constant.
--We still have game pieces to games my kids had when they were VERY small, because when we finished playing a game, I always helped them put the game away. If we found a piece of a game or puzzle, we put it in the lost parts drawer, and would eventually put it with the right game. Because I made an effort to take care of things and to help them keep their parts and pieces safe and together, they did it for my things and each others' things (and still do).--
That is a really good - I think I don't do this enough. I am not really good at this myself (organizing) When we have lost game pieces I know I have stuck them somewhere... but can never remember where. I'll have to make a space in a drawer for this.
--You're trying to teach instead of letting them learn.--
Yes, I can feel it in myself that "make them" feeling. And I am trying to not "show" it - but of course that is impossible and rather dishonest.
--My guess is they're agreeing with you so you'll stop talking, or they acknowledge that they KNOW they could save their money, and then they make a choice and you don't like it.--
Yeah - I can picture that.
-=-So, I know they are not deprived ;-)
Yet you mentioned constant begging.--
See that's the part that I don't understand. I realize that logically if they had everything they wanted, they would not feel deprived. But how much is enough? Does it become a habit if we buy candy every time we go to the grocery store, or the convienent store for milk - is it then expected every time? And if kids don't expect it every time is it because they know if they ask they will get it.?
Heather
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather Woodward
--That didn't stop me from becoming a pretty frugal adult who thinks carefully
about every purchase made. In fact, I am one of the most careful people
with money that I know. I think it's very possible that a big part of the
reason that I don't have issues with money is because I always made my own
choices and I learned from my mistakes. I am glad my parents allowed me the
freedom to do that when I was still under their roof. I know way too many
adults who are who are just now learning from their mistakes when there are
harsher consequences for the mistakes than just a house full of low quality
toys. --
Well this is the outcome I would like - and yes it is better to experience the mistakes in a smaller scale than on a larger one.
--I think kids are better off with the freedom to spend their money however
they wish without any judgmental looks or remarks from their parents. You
can't learn their lesson for them. --
Yes, this is true and I want so much to not have the judgmental feeling about it all. They can certainly sense it - and that is not how I want it to be!
Heather
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
about every purchase made. In fact, I am one of the most careful people
with money that I know. I think it's very possible that a big part of the
reason that I don't have issues with money is because I always made my own
choices and I learned from my mistakes. I am glad my parents allowed me the
freedom to do that when I was still under their roof. I know way too many
adults who are who are just now learning from their mistakes when there are
harsher consequences for the mistakes than just a house full of low quality
toys. --
Well this is the outcome I would like - and yes it is better to experience the mistakes in a smaller scale than on a larger one.
--I think kids are better off with the freedom to spend their money however
they wish without any judgmental looks or remarks from their parents. You
can't learn their lesson for them. --
Yes, this is true and I want so much to not have the judgmental feeling about it all. They can certainly sense it - and that is not how I want it to be!
Heather
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather Woodward
--Stop it - you gave THEM the money to make their own choices and they're
doing that. Stop thinking about it, much less talking about it. It is
kind of meanspirited, Heather, to give them money and then be
judgmental about how they spend it. Heck, if you did that to me, I'd
spend it on what I knew you disapproved of, just because it would feel
kind of like a dirty trick to me.--
Yeah, see that is very true - and its not how I want it to be. I would never give money to a friend and feel like I am teaching them to manage
their money or be critical of where they spent it. Thanks Pam - it's like the kick in the butt that I needed -
--ENJOY their purchases with gusto. "Wow, look how much stuff you got!!"
"How was the candy? Good? Oh good!!" "That's a cute little toy - what
does it do?"--
To really feel this though is the part I am struggling with. I am having a really hard time doing this,
--But - really - don't give the kids their own money and then talk at
them about what they spend it on. That's just not very nice.--
Ok - this is true. Having it said straight up should help me stop myself and take a deep breath before saying anything -
and maybe I can start to feel real joy in their joy of their purchases. I think I am looking at it all
wrong. Instead of feeling - I am "giving"this money - I am setting preconceived notions on how is "should" be used.
If I am giving then I should just be giving!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
doing that. Stop thinking about it, much less talking about it. It is
kind of meanspirited, Heather, to give them money and then be
judgmental about how they spend it. Heck, if you did that to me, I'd
spend it on what I knew you disapproved of, just because it would feel
kind of like a dirty trick to me.--
Yeah, see that is very true - and its not how I want it to be. I would never give money to a friend and feel like I am teaching them to manage
their money or be critical of where they spent it. Thanks Pam - it's like the kick in the butt that I needed -
--ENJOY their purchases with gusto. "Wow, look how much stuff you got!!"
"How was the candy? Good? Oh good!!" "That's a cute little toy - what
does it do?"--
To really feel this though is the part I am struggling with. I am having a really hard time doing this,
--But - really - don't give the kids their own money and then talk at
them about what they spend it on. That's just not very nice.--
Ok - this is true. Having it said straight up should help me stop myself and take a deep breath before saying anything -
and maybe I can start to feel real joy in their joy of their purchases. I think I am looking at it all
wrong. Instead of feeling - I am "giving"this money - I am setting preconceived notions on how is "should" be used.
If I am giving then I should just be giving!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 2/10/05 6:14 PM, Heather Woodward at bacwoodz@... wrote:
right away, usually video games which are $30-$50 and to her saving up might
as well have been waiting forever. She also loved stuffed animals, Beanie
Babies, Pokemon cards. She never met a store she couldn't find something to
buy in ;-) So her money was always leaking out on smaller things. Her list
of wants was huge so even if she had a big chunk of money it couldn't buy
everything.
I helped her out what felt to me like fairly often but probably felt to her
like hardly ever since she seemed to focus so much on right now. I gave her
interest on her savings to encourage her to save. Not going to toy stores
where she could see things she didn't know existed to spend her money on was
helpful. Of course the Beanies and Pokemon cards were always with other
things, so we couldn't always avoid them.
But starting with puberty it all seemed to go away. And now she hardly wants
anything. Christmas the past two years was really hard to shop for her!
Which is not to suggest that it will all go away with puberty! But that
despite all the money that trickled through her fingers, despite all the
stuff she has, *that* didn't prevent her from understanding the value of
money now that she is older. It wasn't because I taught her. It wasn't
because the message finally sank in. It was because her needs changed and
her point of view changed. It didn't make sense to her now. Now it does.
There's the common thought that if they're "indulged" they'll never
understand the value of money. But with my daughter that didn't proven true
and I don't think the common thought has any basis. It's just fear.
Joyce
> Ok - so what if they insist that they want it NOW! because for mine it seemsWhen my daughter was younger she was always wanting something and wanting it
> that the instant gratification wins out far more often than the saving for
> something later.
right away, usually video games which are $30-$50 and to her saving up might
as well have been waiting forever. She also loved stuffed animals, Beanie
Babies, Pokemon cards. She never met a store she couldn't find something to
buy in ;-) So her money was always leaking out on smaller things. Her list
of wants was huge so even if she had a big chunk of money it couldn't buy
everything.
I helped her out what felt to me like fairly often but probably felt to her
like hardly ever since she seemed to focus so much on right now. I gave her
interest on her savings to encourage her to save. Not going to toy stores
where she could see things she didn't know existed to spend her money on was
helpful. Of course the Beanies and Pokemon cards were always with other
things, so we couldn't always avoid them.
But starting with puberty it all seemed to go away. And now she hardly wants
anything. Christmas the past two years was really hard to shop for her!
Which is not to suggest that it will all go away with puberty! But that
despite all the money that trickled through her fingers, despite all the
stuff she has, *that* didn't prevent her from understanding the value of
money now that she is older. It wasn't because I taught her. It wasn't
because the message finally sank in. It was because her needs changed and
her point of view changed. It didn't make sense to her now. Now it does.
There's the common thought that if they're "indulged" they'll never
understand the value of money. But with my daughter that didn't proven true
and I don't think the common thought has any basis. It's just fear.
Joyce
Pamale Teitelbaum
I wouldn't be uncomfortable
how much money my husband makes, they got very excited
("we're rich!" - no, we are soo not) but when we broke
down what we spend every month just on living
essentials they began to have a clearer picture of not
only how (our) $ needs to be managed and spent, but I
have not since had to explain to them (and even before
this, they still couldn't understand) why we can't
afford this or that (eating sushi out, an expensive
toy). It also helped them understand b/t not being
able to afford something NOW (i.e. a $50 lego set) b/c
money must first go to these living essentials, but I
might say, this week we have $20 to put towards that
lego set, and after two weeks or so, we could go and
buy it.
Their allowance is what they like to call their 'screw
you' $ (ala the simpsons episode with Arnie Zif
embezzeling all the shareholders money and willie
saying, "I've lost my screw you $"). They can go and
spend it all at an arcade, on a cheap toy, whatever.
Yes, there are disappointments, but I believe they
learn from those experience.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
> sharingI think it's a great idea too. When my kids found out
> this, but dh is. How have others handled that? I
> think
> it might be great for them to see what our monthly
> intake
> is, and a breakdown of how it is spent. krista
>
how much money my husband makes, they got very excited
("we're rich!" - no, we are soo not) but when we broke
down what we spend every month just on living
essentials they began to have a clearer picture of not
only how (our) $ needs to be managed and spent, but I
have not since had to explain to them (and even before
this, they still couldn't understand) why we can't
afford this or that (eating sushi out, an expensive
toy). It also helped them understand b/t not being
able to afford something NOW (i.e. a $50 lego set) b/c
money must first go to these living essentials, but I
might say, this week we have $20 to put towards that
lego set, and after two weeks or so, we could go and
buy it.
Their allowance is what they like to call their 'screw
you' $ (ala the simpsons episode with Arnie Zif
embezzeling all the shareholders money and willie
saying, "I've lost my screw you $"). They can go and
spend it all at an arcade, on a cheap toy, whatever.
Yes, there are disappointments, but I believe they
learn from those experience.
>Pamela
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/10/05 3:27:04 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< There's the common thought that if they're "indulged" they'll never
understand the value of money. But with my daughter that didn't proven true
and I don't think the common thought has any basis. It's just fear.
my kids, but because we were always really honest with them it was
understandable all the way around. And there were a few things they got and didn't
appreciate (Holly, a scooter she hardly ever rode/rides) that stirred the old
voices in me that wanted to give them the speech about how much others don't have
and how ungrateful, blah blah, but I REALLY try to keep those things to
myself, though occasionally a squeak of it comes out.
I had a mom who could, with a straight face (which came from not thinking
about it past the surface) tell me with a cigarette in one hand and a beer in the
other that she/they couldn't afford to get me whatever $4 or $10 thing I was
requesting. My allowance went from 35 cents to $5 over the course of seven
years or so (the $5 a week was when I was 17 and in college), and my dad
wouldn't let me get a job. It would look like he couldn't afford to provide for me.
But my mom was making sure I wasn't much provided for. Altogether, that was
a big drag. (When I went away to college I got work study jobs, at least, on
campus.) So I know personally what scarcity and resentment feel like.
Since I became pregnant with Kirby (a surprise at the time), I've really
[fishing for a word, and rejecting 'studied' and 'worked']...
From the time I knew I was going to have a baby, I dedicated myself to
overcoming my childhood problems and getting clear enough about what was important
and what wasn't so that my child would have a nest free of the trickle-down
effects of my being a child of an alcoholic, and (I had hoped) free of the
effects of the discouraging voices people can keep in their heads. I didn't mind
encouraging tapes playing in my head, from people who had thought I WAS capable
and fun, but the negative loops and the insults I had endured and collected
as a kid were categorized as "toxic" and to be cleaned up.
It might not seem like messages from grandmothers and aunts and teachers and
friends would affect how people spend money, or don't, but they can strike at
the very core of whether one feels worth $5, or $50, or whether one is
competent to ask for more money, or to sign a contract that puts one in debt, or to
invest. All that can have to do with self esteem and self worth.
That's why money problems are so often the source of marital discord, I
think, and why counselling can help. Money issues are rarely cleanly about money.
I've had friends whose parents used money as reward and punishment. Kid was
good all year? "Christmas bonus." One family I know, that was as clearly
shown as if they'd put coal in the stockings. The kids didn't get equal amounts
of money at holidays. Teens, young adults. And it wasn't about need, or
age, it was about who did what the parents said to do better that year.
One of the principles we have tried to maintain with our children is that
they not feel needy or deprived. Their clothes aren't all new or expensive, but
they have enough clothes that every day they have a choice of what to wear.
They have extra shoes.
Yesterday Holly bought herself a used pair of shoes. I'll buy her laces
today or tomorrow. Yesterday I bought Kirby a coat, used at a re-sale shop, for
$30. That's the first coat I've bought him since the one he outgrew when he
was 12 or 13. But he has always had a coat, even though it came from his dad,
or was the one I found near a dumpster. Somewhere in there, they didn't feel
deprived.
We paid them off, but we paid them in attention and freedom and positive
regard.
And, kind of like the not forcing foods thing, we didn't force them to wear
clothes they hated. I never thought of that until just now. Because they were
free to say, "No, this one's uncomfortable," or "these shoes hurt" or "I just
don't like this shirt for some reason," clothes weren't charged with IMPORT
or emotion or hurt.
There's an article I wrote about ideas concerning spoiled kids and money. I
don't think it needs to cost a lot of money to be generous with kids. Parents
of any means can be generous or stingy, because those have more to do (I
think) with the emotions surrounding how one says "can't afford it" or "I wish I
could."
http://sandradodd.com/spoiled
and another one, related I think:
http://sandradodd.com/repect
It's called "How to Raise a Respected Child," and the shortest summary is
"Respect them."
Sandra
<< There's the common thought that if they're "indulged" they'll never
understand the value of money. But with my daughter that didn't proven true
and I don't think the common thought has any basis. It's just fear.
>>That has been my experience too. There are things I wish I could have gotten
my kids, but because we were always really honest with them it was
understandable all the way around. And there were a few things they got and didn't
appreciate (Holly, a scooter she hardly ever rode/rides) that stirred the old
voices in me that wanted to give them the speech about how much others don't have
and how ungrateful, blah blah, but I REALLY try to keep those things to
myself, though occasionally a squeak of it comes out.
I had a mom who could, with a straight face (which came from not thinking
about it past the surface) tell me with a cigarette in one hand and a beer in the
other that she/they couldn't afford to get me whatever $4 or $10 thing I was
requesting. My allowance went from 35 cents to $5 over the course of seven
years or so (the $5 a week was when I was 17 and in college), and my dad
wouldn't let me get a job. It would look like he couldn't afford to provide for me.
But my mom was making sure I wasn't much provided for. Altogether, that was
a big drag. (When I went away to college I got work study jobs, at least, on
campus.) So I know personally what scarcity and resentment feel like.
Since I became pregnant with Kirby (a surprise at the time), I've really
[fishing for a word, and rejecting 'studied' and 'worked']...
From the time I knew I was going to have a baby, I dedicated myself to
overcoming my childhood problems and getting clear enough about what was important
and what wasn't so that my child would have a nest free of the trickle-down
effects of my being a child of an alcoholic, and (I had hoped) free of the
effects of the discouraging voices people can keep in their heads. I didn't mind
encouraging tapes playing in my head, from people who had thought I WAS capable
and fun, but the negative loops and the insults I had endured and collected
as a kid were categorized as "toxic" and to be cleaned up.
It might not seem like messages from grandmothers and aunts and teachers and
friends would affect how people spend money, or don't, but they can strike at
the very core of whether one feels worth $5, or $50, or whether one is
competent to ask for more money, or to sign a contract that puts one in debt, or to
invest. All that can have to do with self esteem and self worth.
That's why money problems are so often the source of marital discord, I
think, and why counselling can help. Money issues are rarely cleanly about money.
I've had friends whose parents used money as reward and punishment. Kid was
good all year? "Christmas bonus." One family I know, that was as clearly
shown as if they'd put coal in the stockings. The kids didn't get equal amounts
of money at holidays. Teens, young adults. And it wasn't about need, or
age, it was about who did what the parents said to do better that year.
One of the principles we have tried to maintain with our children is that
they not feel needy or deprived. Their clothes aren't all new or expensive, but
they have enough clothes that every day they have a choice of what to wear.
They have extra shoes.
Yesterday Holly bought herself a used pair of shoes. I'll buy her laces
today or tomorrow. Yesterday I bought Kirby a coat, used at a re-sale shop, for
$30. That's the first coat I've bought him since the one he outgrew when he
was 12 or 13. But he has always had a coat, even though it came from his dad,
or was the one I found near a dumpster. Somewhere in there, they didn't feel
deprived.
We paid them off, but we paid them in attention and freedom and positive
regard.
And, kind of like the not forcing foods thing, we didn't force them to wear
clothes they hated. I never thought of that until just now. Because they were
free to say, "No, this one's uncomfortable," or "these shoes hurt" or "I just
don't like this shirt for some reason," clothes weren't charged with IMPORT
or emotion or hurt.
There's an article I wrote about ideas concerning spoiled kids and money. I
don't think it needs to cost a lot of money to be generous with kids. Parents
of any means can be generous or stingy, because those have more to do (I
think) with the emotions surrounding how one says "can't afford it" or "I wish I
could."
http://sandradodd.com/spoiled
and another one, related I think:
http://sandradodd.com/repect
It's called "How to Raise a Respected Child," and the shortest summary is
"Respect them."
Sandra
virgil leggett
" One question that keeps
coming up lately from my kids is, they want to know how
much money we have. I wouldn't be uncomfortable sharing
this, but dh is. How have others handled that? I think
it might be great for them to see what our monthly intake
is, and a breakdown of how it is spent."
My parents never discussed money in front of us when I was young. It seems so artificial for children not to know some of the everyday financial dilema's the family faces.
Our son knows when we have money, and when we don't, although he's probably too young to know exactly where all of it goes.
He does help his dad with the gravel-hauling business--calculating the price of the load and how much profit they are making with the haul. That's how he "practices" his math. He enjoys it, taking his briefcase and calculator with him in the dump truck.
I think the most important thing is just being honest, and sharing your concerns with your child without overwhelming them with the details they can't understand yet.
About the recent thread concerning children saving money--there's a really cool bank I got for my son (crown.org} which helps him save money. It's like an ATM machine, with a card, keypad, and drawer. It keeps track of how much you put in, take out, and save. I would give the exact address, but I don't want this to sound like an advertisement.
________________________________________________________________
Sent via the WebMail system at 1st.net
coming up lately from my kids is, they want to know how
much money we have. I wouldn't be uncomfortable sharing
this, but dh is. How have others handled that? I think
it might be great for them to see what our monthly intake
is, and a breakdown of how it is spent."
My parents never discussed money in front of us when I was young. It seems so artificial for children not to know some of the everyday financial dilema's the family faces.
Our son knows when we have money, and when we don't, although he's probably too young to know exactly where all of it goes.
He does help his dad with the gravel-hauling business--calculating the price of the load and how much profit they are making with the haul. That's how he "practices" his math. He enjoys it, taking his briefcase and calculator with him in the dump truck.
I think the most important thing is just being honest, and sharing your concerns with your child without overwhelming them with the details they can't understand yet.
About the recent thread concerning children saving money--there's a really cool bank I got for my son (crown.org} which helps him save money. It's like an ATM machine, with a card, keypad, and drawer. It keeps track of how much you put in, take out, and save. I would give the exact address, but I don't want this to sound like an advertisement.
________________________________________________________________
Sent via the WebMail system at 1st.net
Pam Sorooshian
On Feb 10, 2005, at 2:30 AM, Fetteroll wrote:
It is a left-over idea that children won't learn what we don't directly
teach them. We know that's not true. They WANT to be competent and
capable and they will want to live good lives in which they will think
about what makes sense to get what they want and do what they want. it
is once again a matter of trust - trusting that they'll "grow up" and
that if we don't mess with them, if we don't warp them in some way,
they'll make conscious decisions about money.
NO different than food issues at all - if we keep at them about what
they eat or don't eat - if we bug them all the time, if we say, "You
can eat anything you want, but, oh, honey, do you really want to eat
just cake for breakfast, don't you think you should have some eggs?"
then we undermine their own sense of self, their own sense of making
their own choices, their own chance to make their own "little"
mistakes. Their eating, as adults, will STILL be somehow controlled by
that controlling mommy voice in our heads - and, as teens and adults,
we very often tend to be resistant to it - which means that we find
ourselves as ADULTS, eating too much cake while hearing, "You shouldn't
be eating that," over and over in our heads.
Do we want our kids to grow up and find themselves spending money on
the adult equivalent of junky little things while hearing, "You
shouldn't be buying that," over and over in their heads?
Trust them.
Be their support system. I want so much for my kids to grow up and hear
that mommy voice in their head saying positive supportive things, not
tearing them down, but encouraging them - and especially not a voice to
be resisted. This drives me. I don't do it all that well - but what I
focus on is awareness of what they're likely hearing/saying to
themselves in response to what I'm saying out loud.
-pam
>RIGHT!
> There's the common thought that if they're "indulged" they'll never
> understand the value of money. But with my daughter that didn't proven
> true
> and I don't think the common thought has any basis. It's just fear.
It is a left-over idea that children won't learn what we don't directly
teach them. We know that's not true. They WANT to be competent and
capable and they will want to live good lives in which they will think
about what makes sense to get what they want and do what they want. it
is once again a matter of trust - trusting that they'll "grow up" and
that if we don't mess with them, if we don't warp them in some way,
they'll make conscious decisions about money.
NO different than food issues at all - if we keep at them about what
they eat or don't eat - if we bug them all the time, if we say, "You
can eat anything you want, but, oh, honey, do you really want to eat
just cake for breakfast, don't you think you should have some eggs?"
then we undermine their own sense of self, their own sense of making
their own choices, their own chance to make their own "little"
mistakes. Their eating, as adults, will STILL be somehow controlled by
that controlling mommy voice in our heads - and, as teens and adults,
we very often tend to be resistant to it - which means that we find
ourselves as ADULTS, eating too much cake while hearing, "You shouldn't
be eating that," over and over in our heads.
Do we want our kids to grow up and find themselves spending money on
the adult equivalent of junky little things while hearing, "You
shouldn't be buying that," over and over in their heads?
Trust them.
Be their support system. I want so much for my kids to grow up and hear
that mommy voice in their head saying positive supportive things, not
tearing them down, but encouraging them - and especially not a voice to
be resisted. This drives me. I don't do it all that well - but what I
focus on is awareness of what they're likely hearing/saying to
themselves in response to what I'm saying out loud.
-pam
Kelle Kjeer
Pam wrote:
I want so much for my kids to grow up and hear
that mommy voice in their head saying positive supportive things, not
tearing them down, but encouraging them - and especially not a voice to
be resisted.
Question:
Do you think (and I�m asking for opinions) that if that mommy voice has been
negative sometimes (say up until age 8) and their self-esteem has been
damaged somewhat that it can be built back up again and those negative
comments replaced (in their heads) with positive ones through the use of
unschooling and what I would characterize as unconditional love (for that,
in a nutshell, is what I�ve been hearing from you all)
Thanks,
Kelle
*
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 02/07/2005
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 02/07/2005
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I want so much for my kids to grow up and hear
that mommy voice in their head saying positive supportive things, not
tearing them down, but encouraging them - and especially not a voice to
be resisted.
Question:
Do you think (and I�m asking for opinions) that if that mommy voice has been
negative sometimes (say up until age 8) and their self-esteem has been
damaged somewhat that it can be built back up again and those negative
comments replaced (in their heads) with positive ones through the use of
unschooling and what I would characterize as unconditional love (for that,
in a nutshell, is what I�ve been hearing from you all)
Thanks,
Kelle
*
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 02/07/2005
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.6 - Release Date: 02/07/2005
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
Oh gosh, Kelle, I am certain that negative mommy voices can be
replaced. Absolutely. Look what people can do even as adults in
reformatting their own inner thoughts. So, yeah, for sure, with the
help of a newly-aware parent and a lot of honesty and openness about
how she is working on herself, too? Absolutely.
I don't like the phrase unconditional love - because that has some sort
of connotation of not even "caring" what my kids do - and it just seems
like something different than what we mean, here. I guess I think
parents do all kinds of things while claiming unconditional love. I've
seen advice given to mothers of tiny babies to stop them from squirming
during diaper changes by whipping them with fishing line and, at the
same time, looking into their eyes and smiling and cooing that they
love them. I'm pretty sure those parents giving and taking that advice
think they have "unconditional love" for their children.
So what we're talking about, to me, is parenting based on trust in some
kind of innate urges in human beings.
I truly believe that ever baby born is programmed to naturally grow up
to be a competent and capable adult who wants to get along with other
people and who wants to live a happy and productive life and wants to
find his/her passions and contribute to the world.
This is clearly different than those who believe children are born
sinful.
It is even different, though, from those who believe children are born
inept. That's a big deal. It is radically different way of relating to
children when we relate to them as people needing our support, not our
control.
-pam
replaced. Absolutely. Look what people can do even as adults in
reformatting their own inner thoughts. So, yeah, for sure, with the
help of a newly-aware parent and a lot of honesty and openness about
how she is working on herself, too? Absolutely.
I don't like the phrase unconditional love - because that has some sort
of connotation of not even "caring" what my kids do - and it just seems
like something different than what we mean, here. I guess I think
parents do all kinds of things while claiming unconditional love. I've
seen advice given to mothers of tiny babies to stop them from squirming
during diaper changes by whipping them with fishing line and, at the
same time, looking into their eyes and smiling and cooing that they
love them. I'm pretty sure those parents giving and taking that advice
think they have "unconditional love" for their children.
So what we're talking about, to me, is parenting based on trust in some
kind of innate urges in human beings.
I truly believe that ever baby born is programmed to naturally grow up
to be a competent and capable adult who wants to get along with other
people and who wants to live a happy and productive life and wants to
find his/her passions and contribute to the world.
This is clearly different than those who believe children are born
sinful.
It is even different, though, from those who believe children are born
inept. That's a big deal. It is radically different way of relating to
children when we relate to them as people needing our support, not our
control.
-pam
On Feb 10, 2005, at 9:46 AM, Kelle Kjeer wrote:
> Do you think (and I’m asking for opinions) that if that mommy voice
> has been
> negative sometimes (say up until age 8) and their self-esteem has been
> damaged somewhat that it can be built back up again and those negative
> comments replaced (in their heads) with positive ones through the use
> of
> unschooling and what I would characterize as unconditional love (for
> that,
> in a nutshell, is what I’ve been hearing from you all)
[email protected]
>Yes.
>Do you think that if that mommy voice has been
>negative sometimes (say up until age 8) and their self-esteem has been
>damaged somewhat that it can be built back up again-=
And better, it can be an excuse for you to hug him and hold him and say "I wish I had not been so [grouchy or whatever] when you were little. If I could start over I would be a happier mom."
Or you could say "If I'm ever grouchy like that again, it's okay for you to say "Mom, don't be grouchy." You could empower him to defend himself from unreasonable and emotional criticism, and that would make you partners in keeping everything moving toward your ideal.
-=- and those negative
>comments replaced (in their heads) with positive ones through the use of-=-
>unschooling and what I would characterize as unconditional love (for that,
>in a nutshell, is what I've been hearing from you all)
This might be just me, but I've never liked the concept of "unconditional love." In contrast to "conditional love," it seems a good idea, but those are two extremes, neither of which is necessary. I think the idea of mindful and respectful parenting is a better way to look at it than "conditional" or "unconditional."
If I had a child who became a rapist or murderer, I would NOT be as loving of or toward him as I would be if he were sweet to all little children and helped everyone he knew to feel safer for the rest of his life. It seems to me that recommending "unconditional love" is a little like saying "Don't be judgmental" and meaning "try to think that all things are equally valid." There ARE and should be better and worse choices. A child shouldn't "unconditionally love" a parent who is violent or abusive, either.
Sandra
Heather Woodward
If my kids were with me in the grocery store and they wanted those
little plastic bubble toys from a machine, we'd do it sometimes - there
is something fun about getting them that way. But if they wanted it
EVERY week, then we'd perhaps talk about maybe putting that money in an
envelope instead and saving it up for something specific that they
wanted. I mean - if I was concerned and seeing a problem, I can see
trying to find some way of doing something different.
Ok - so what if they insist that they want it NOW! because for mine it seems that the instant gratification wins out far more often than the saving for something later. And do you mean that if you are buying them something at the store - you feel differently than if it is "their" money?
Someone mentioned thrift stores. We do this all the time. At one point my son was able to buy a rescue hero jeep and man with his money that he had been wanting. I think they had like $10.00 on it or something. He was proud of himself at being able to buy it with his own money. But it was short lived. If I remind home of how good he felt the day that he went back and bought it - he doesn't seem to want to do that over the instant purchase. It was kind of fluky that he saved it that time. I don't think we had gotten out as much because of bad weather and other plans.
But overall - I guess if he wants something larger bad enough at some point he will decide to just do it. I will let this go ;-)
Heather
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
little plastic bubble toys from a machine, we'd do it sometimes - there
is something fun about getting them that way. But if they wanted it
EVERY week, then we'd perhaps talk about maybe putting that money in an
envelope instead and saving it up for something specific that they
wanted. I mean - if I was concerned and seeing a problem, I can see
trying to find some way of doing something different.
Ok - so what if they insist that they want it NOW! because for mine it seems that the instant gratification wins out far more often than the saving for something later. And do you mean that if you are buying them something at the store - you feel differently than if it is "their" money?
Someone mentioned thrift stores. We do this all the time. At one point my son was able to buy a rescue hero jeep and man with his money that he had been wanting. I think they had like $10.00 on it or something. He was proud of himself at being able to buy it with his own money. But it was short lived. If I remind home of how good he felt the day that he went back and bought it - he doesn't seem to want to do that over the instant purchase. It was kind of fluky that he saved it that time. I don't think we had gotten out as much because of bad weather and other plans.
But overall - I guess if he wants something larger bad enough at some point he will decide to just do it. I will let this go ;-)
Heather
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather Woodward
--One question that keeps
coming up lately from my kids is, they want to know how
much money we have. I wouldn't be uncomfortable sharing
this, but dh is. How have others handled that? --
I share it when my kids ask. We have an electric heat pump - and usually its not that bad - but the last couple months have been really cold ( I am envying those of you in warm places ;-) so we had a really large bill. When they heard me talking about possible getting an insert for our fireplace to save on this they wanted to know how much the electric bill was. When I told them I explained how it all matters - lights, hot water, heat, etc. and things that we can all do to cut it back a little. It won't get tremendously better - but often there are little things, like we forget the playroom lights and stuff. So it opened up a conversation about that and all the other things we pay for like water that is by usage and how much it costs for the mortgage, etc. I think that large of an amount money to them is hard to comprehend. I also share what we save.
Just for fun, we save change in a big jar for our vacation each summer. We cash it in once a year and then use it for fun things on our trip. Of course, its not the only funds we have for the trip but they always like to put our pocket change in there.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
coming up lately from my kids is, they want to know how
much money we have. I wouldn't be uncomfortable sharing
this, but dh is. How have others handled that? --
I share it when my kids ask. We have an electric heat pump - and usually its not that bad - but the last couple months have been really cold ( I am envying those of you in warm places ;-) so we had a really large bill. When they heard me talking about possible getting an insert for our fireplace to save on this they wanted to know how much the electric bill was. When I told them I explained how it all matters - lights, hot water, heat, etc. and things that we can all do to cut it back a little. It won't get tremendously better - but often there are little things, like we forget the playroom lights and stuff. So it opened up a conversation about that and all the other things we pay for like water that is by usage and how much it costs for the mortgage, etc. I think that large of an amount money to them is hard to comprehend. I also share what we save.
Just for fun, we save change in a big jar for our vacation each summer. We cash it in once a year and then use it for fun things on our trip. Of course, its not the only funds we have for the trip but they always like to put our pocket change in there.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelle Kjeer
Pam, you wrote:
Okay, deep breath of relief to find some hope. I've been reading for
several weeks and have been feeling despair. So thank you.
Sandra wrote:
from unreasonable and emotional criticism, and that would make you partners
in keeping everything moving toward your ideal.
Okay, this is good, because I have done just this, except I said angry or
irritable instead of grouchy. I told him to tell me to calm down and take
it easy. He has only had to do it once, since.
are two extremes, neither of which is necessary. I think the idea of
mindful and respectful parenting is a better way to look at it than
"conditional" or "unconditional."
Well, it isn�t just you since Pam just wrote the same thing. I�m thinking
of unconditional love as loving the person inside while still being able to
express dismay or dislike of an undesirable deed. Now I�m going to have to
think about this a little further, I guess.
Thanks to you both. I have learned a great deal the past few weeks.
Kelle
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 13:06
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Money Management and first post
question
And better, it can be an excuse for you to hug him and hold him and say "I
wish I had not been so [grouchy or whatever] when you were little. If I
could start over I would be a happier mom."
Or you could say "If I'm ever grouchy like that again, it's okay for you to
say "Mom, don't be grouchy." You could empower him to defend himself from
unreasonable and emotional criticism, and that would make you partners in
keeping everything moving toward your ideal.
-=- and those negative
This might be just me, but I've never liked the concept of "unconditional
love." In contrast to "conditional love," it seems a good idea, but those
are two extremes, neither of which is necessary. I think the idea of
mindful and respectful parenting is a better way to look at it than
"conditional" or "unconditional."
If I had a child who became a rapist or murderer, I would NOT be as loving
of or toward him as I would be if he were sweet to all little children and
helped everyone he knew to feel safer for the rest of his life. It seems to
me that recommending "unconditional love" is a little like saying "Don't be
judgmental" and meaning "try to think that all things are equally valid."
There ARE and should be better and worse choices. A child shouldn't
"unconditionally love" a parent who is violent or abusive, either.
Sandra
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: HYPERLINK
"http://www.unschooling.com"http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
HYPERLINK
"http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129is7k5q/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=gr
oups/S=1705081972:HM/EXP=1108148763/A=2532114/R=2/SIG=12kle7hai/*http:/clk.a
tdmt.com/NFX/go/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1108062363010633" \n
HYPERLINK
"http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=110806
2363010633"
HYPERLINK
"http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=groups/S=
:HM/A=2532114/rand=409237565"
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/"http://groups.yahoo.co
m/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HYPERLINK
"mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscrib
e"[email protected]
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK
"http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 02/10/2005
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 02/10/2005
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>Oh gosh, Kelle, I am certain that negative mommy voices can bereplaced. Absolutely.
Okay, deep breath of relief to find some hope. I've been reading for
several weeks and have been feeling despair. So thank you.
Sandra wrote:
>>Or you could say "If I'm ever grouchy like that again, it's okay for youto say "Mom, don't be grouchy." You could empower him to defend himself
from unreasonable and emotional criticism, and that would make you partners
in keeping everything moving toward your ideal.
Okay, this is good, because I have done just this, except I said angry or
irritable instead of grouchy. I told him to tell me to calm down and take
it easy. He has only had to do it once, since.
>>This might be just me, but I've never liked the concept of "unconditionallove." In contrast to "conditional love," it seems a good idea, but those
are two extremes, neither of which is necessary. I think the idea of
mindful and respectful parenting is a better way to look at it than
"conditional" or "unconditional."
Well, it isn�t just you since Pam just wrote the same thing. I�m thinking
of unconditional love as loving the person inside while still being able to
express dismay or dislike of an undesirable deed. Now I�m going to have to
think about this a little further, I guess.
Thanks to you both. I have learned a great deal the past few weeks.
Kelle
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 13:06
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Money Management and first post
question
>Yes.
>Do you think that if that mommy voice has been
>negative sometimes (say up until age 8) and their self-esteem has been
>damaged somewhat that it can be built back up again-=
And better, it can be an excuse for you to hug him and hold him and say "I
wish I had not been so [grouchy or whatever] when you were little. If I
could start over I would be a happier mom."
Or you could say "If I'm ever grouchy like that again, it's okay for you to
say "Mom, don't be grouchy." You could empower him to defend himself from
unreasonable and emotional criticism, and that would make you partners in
keeping everything moving toward your ideal.
-=- and those negative
>comments replaced (in their heads) with positive ones through the use of-=-
>unschooling and what I would characterize as unconditional love (for that,
>in a nutshell, is what I've been hearing from you all)
This might be just me, but I've never liked the concept of "unconditional
love." In contrast to "conditional love," it seems a good idea, but those
are two extremes, neither of which is necessary. I think the idea of
mindful and respectful parenting is a better way to look at it than
"conditional" or "unconditional."
If I had a child who became a rapist or murderer, I would NOT be as loving
of or toward him as I would be if he were sweet to all little children and
helped everyone he knew to feel safer for the rest of his life. It seems to
me that recommending "unconditional love" is a little like saying "Don't be
judgmental" and meaning "try to think that all things are equally valid."
There ARE and should be better and worse choices. A child shouldn't
"unconditionally love" a parent who is violent or abusive, either.
Sandra
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: HYPERLINK
"http://www.unschooling.com"http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
HYPERLINK
"http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129is7k5q/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=gr
oups/S=1705081972:HM/EXP=1108148763/A=2532114/R=2/SIG=12kle7hai/*http:/clk.a
tdmt.com/NFX/go/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1108062363010633" \n
HYPERLINK
"http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=110806
2363010633"
HYPERLINK
"http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=groups/S=
:HM/A=2532114/rand=409237565"
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/"http://groups.yahoo.co
m/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HYPERLINK
"mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscrib
e"[email protected]
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK
"http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 02/10/2005
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 02/10/2005
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Feb 10, 2005, at 6:07 PM, Kelle Kjeer wrote:
not. I'm just saying that what we're talking about here is something a
bit different - that "love" is too vague a term for our purposes. We're
talking about active encouragement and support and focus on the kids'
strengths and building on those. We're talking about assuming the kids
want pretty much what we want - to have a good life - to live well - to
have interests and passions and to love what we do and, yes, to feel
loved.
People can love their kids, but still assume that their children are
likely to try to "manipulate" them or take advantage of them or rebel
against them and so on. So - my point is that "love" isn't the issue
here - the foundation here is our underlying belief about the nature of
young human beings.
-pam
>I'm not even saying that's a good or bad thing or a reasonable goal or
> Well, it isn’t just you since Pam just wrote the same thing. I’m
> thinking
> of unconditional love as loving the person inside while still being
> able to
> express dismay or dislike of an undesirable deed. Now I’m going to
> have to
> think about this a little further, I guess.
not. I'm just saying that what we're talking about here is something a
bit different - that "love" is too vague a term for our purposes. We're
talking about active encouragement and support and focus on the kids'
strengths and building on those. We're talking about assuming the kids
want pretty much what we want - to have a good life - to live well - to
have interests and passions and to love what we do and, yes, to feel
loved.
People can love their kids, but still assume that their children are
likely to try to "manipulate" them or take advantage of them or rebel
against them and so on. So - my point is that "love" isn't the issue
here - the foundation here is our underlying belief about the nature of
young human beings.
-pam
Kelle Kjeer
Pam wrote:
strengths and building on those. We're talking about assuming the kids
want pretty much what we want - to have a good life - to live well - to
have interests and passions and to love what we do and, yes, to feel
loved.<<
Okay, I understand. I'll keep reading and learning.
Thanks.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 02/10/2005
>>"love" is too vague a term for our purposes. We'retalking about active encouragement and support and focus on the kids'
strengths and building on those. We're talking about assuming the kids
want pretty much what we want - to have a good life - to live well - to
have interests and passions and to love what we do and, yes, to feel
loved.<<
Okay, I understand. I'll keep reading and learning.
Thanks.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 02/10/2005