[email protected]

I'll work on this tomorrow if I get a chance, to make it better. But come
to think of it, tomorrow's pretty solidly booked. I'll poke around Kirby's
computer for a photo editor or if someone knows a way to upload a disk to an
online public photo site, I could try that.

_http://sandradodd.com/cameron_ (http://sandradodd.com/cameron)

Thanks!

Sandra

P.S., that first photo is cool, and we would have had about 50% more lower,
had that not been the last shot on that roll. Darn! Marty took it, and
tried to get the clifftop in (and did), but then missed the length of hill below
Cameron, and the little arroyo between him and that hill. That was taken
facing north from the trail into Echo Amphitheatre near Ghost Ranch, north of
Abiquiu. Cameron took his drum to play there, and is playing it in the photo.
It sounded great, up near the amphitheatre itself.

I was looking for online photos of that site, since we ran out of film, but
am afraid I'll lose this e-mail if I don't stop screwing around with too many
windows open. Sorry.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 2/8/05 1:52 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> if someone knows a way to upload a disk to an
> online public photo site, I could try that.

I've used Ofoto.

http://www.ofoto.com/

For those with a PC or Mac OSX it's easy to upload with a free download
program.

For those with OS9 there's more clicking involved. You have to pick which
pictures to upload but you don't have to wait for each picture to upload to
choose the next. They all upload at once after you're done choosing.

Joyce

Fetteroll

Those are pretty much the big three parenting issues that unschoolers tell
beginners to let go of control of :-)

I mentioned to Sandra and some others that sleep shouldn't be grouped in
with those two because sometimes people interpret let go of bedtime control
as let the kids figure out how to get to bed when they're tired and then the
kids end up staying up all night and sleeping all day.

But now I'm thinking that a similar misunderstanding happens with all three.

With food sometimes free rein gets interpretted as supplying kids only with
what they're asking for, which, if it's been controlled, is generally "junk"
food.

With TV sometimes free rein gets interpretted as sitting back and waiting
while the kids watch the now unlimited TV.

The philosophical idea people would like to get across is becoming your
child's partner.

But maybe part of the problem in trying to explain it is that parents who
control already think they are being, if not a partner, at least being
helpful. They're "helping" their kids make the right choice by preventing
them from making the wrong choices.

So it's much easier and more direct to say "Stop controlling."

Is there a better way to get the concepts across?

Joyce

soggyboysmom

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll >
> So it's much easier and more direct to say "Stop controlling."
> Is there a better way to get the concepts across?
> Joyce

I think the oft-mentioned idea of simply saying Yes more rather
than "Stop" anything. It seems to help both parents and kids from
going into the deer-in-the-headlights type shock and just freezing
up, not knowing what to do.

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], "soggyboysmom"
<debra.rossing@m...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], Fetteroll >
> > So it's much easier and more direct to say "Stop controlling."
> > Is there a better way to get the concepts across?
> > Joyce

What about "doing with"?

I remember Sandra said when I first asked questions about unschooling, to do everything
with my kids six hours a day. SIX HOURS a DAY!?

I took her advice Very Seriously. :)

And that meant that I was very in tune with my kids. They watched TV and I watched with
them, but then if I said, "Hey, who wants to play cards?" or "bake cookies" or "go for a
walk," they were up for that too.

When night came, I could see tired children and would be able to suggest sleep and slowly
move them to a sleepy routine. But I wasn't controlled by the clock any more. i was
controlled by my kids and my observations of them.

I think one of the misunderstood aspects of unschooling is the idea that kids are on their
own creating their own lives while the parent is... I don't know, in the other room?

But it's this constant participation that helped me see how to let go of control because I
was with my kids and able to interact about everything in a loving, respectful way.

Julie

cslkll

--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart"
<julie@b...> wrote:
>

> What about "doing with"?
>
> I think one of the misunderstood aspects of unschooling is the
idea that kids are on their
> own creating their own lives while the parent is... I don't know,
in the other room?
>
> Julie
~~~~~~~~~~~~


For us, as our kids get older, sometimes it does mean that
I'm in the other room :0) The life we've built though, brings
my children to me or to each other with their interests and
discoveries. I have learned so much from my kids exploring their
own interests without me being right there. I am there for a lot
of things, but when I'm not, it is fun to have them come to me
and have the experience of them genuinely caring to share what
they've discovered. I do like the "doing with" suggestion.
krista

kayb85

I don't know exactly what the answer to your question is except to
say that maybe there is no way to neatly sum it all up. "Stop
controlling" is difficult for someone to follow unless they know how
to set up personal boundaries, and can tell the difference between
honoring personal boundaries and selfishness. But if you stress the
importance of personal boundaries, then people who resist doing
anything for anyone other than themselves are going to have a hard
time with that.

Maybe a quiz set up for general unschooling advice.
Unschooling and tv
-Do your kids watch tv?
a. of course, as much as they want, and sometimes we watch it
together and discuss things we watch
b. Yeah, I hate tv because I worry that it will rot their minds but I
try not to say anything to them when they watch it.
c. They can watch it sometimes, but we consider it a privelage that
they have to earn, and we sometimes punish them by taking away their
tv viewing.
d. Oh no, do they need to be watching more tv? Maybe I'm not
exposing my kids to enough tv. How many hours of tv should we be
watching a day in order to be good unschoolers? Oh, I'm so worried
now!

If you've answered a, then read this advice about tv and
unschooling. If you've answered b, then read this advice about tv
and unschooling. If you've answered, c....etc.

Sheila









--- In [email protected], Fetteroll
<fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> Those are pretty much the big three parenting issues that
unschoolers tell
> beginners to let go of control of :-)
>
> I mentioned to Sandra and some others that sleep shouldn't be
grouped in
> with those two because sometimes people interpret let go of bedtime
control
> as let the kids figure out how to get to bed when they're tired and
then the
> kids end up staying up all night and sleeping all day.
>
> But now I'm thinking that a similar misunderstanding happens with
all three.
>
> With food sometimes free rein gets interpretted as supplying kids
only with
> what they're asking for, which, if it's been controlled, is
generally "junk"
> food.
>
> With TV sometimes free rein gets interpretted as sitting back and
waiting
> while the kids watch the now unlimited TV.
>
> The philosophical idea people would like to get across is becoming
your
> child's partner.
>
> But maybe part of the problem in trying to explain it is that
parents who
> control already think they are being, if not a partner, at least
being
> helpful. They're "helping" their kids make the right choice by
preventing
> them from making the wrong choices.
>
> So it's much easier and more direct to say "Stop controlling."
>
> Is there a better way to get the concepts across?
>
> Joyce

Elizabeth Hill

**

b. Yeah, I hate tv because I worry that it will rot their minds but I
try not to say anything to them when they watch it. **

Can we have a B- answer about worrying that TV is occupying an awfully big amount of one's child's life? (I'm not worried about "mind rot", just about balance.) I need to deal with the whole "really reluctant to go out" scenario with James.

(But we are on our way for a looong outing, so I'll have to post more clearly when I get back.)

Betsy

mamaaj2000

I start muttering on this topic about once a month, threaten to write
more and then never get far.

So far I've created a Word doc called "More Than Nothing" and have
pasted two old posts from UB in it and added one original thought!

The two old posts from UB are
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/message/858 and
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/message/1008, if you
want to take a look.

My latest take on it is "stop controling your kids and control
yourself." Meaning look for how much autonomy you have in choosing
what you do. See how enjoyable it is to choose to spend the day
connecting to your kids. Delight in choosing to find things to strew
that will spark their curiousity. If there's a repeated "problem"
with food or sleep, think about what help you can offer.

We were having a little power struggle for a few days here: ds
started making lots of noise while dd was trying to go down for a
nap. I could not control what he was doing while she was nursing, so
I had no choice but to find a different way of dealing with it. In
the morning, I set aside some candy and a couple special art supplies
on a counter that the kids can't see. When dd started to go to sleep
I sent ds to climb up and found the suprises I'd left for him. He was
so pleased! And then next day he happily turned the volume down on
the game he was playing and stopped yelling back at it. I wasn't
controling him, but my actions are what turned the situation around.
I didn't feel helpless that I couldn't control him, I felt powerful
that I could change my actions and that that led to a change in the
situation.

I'm not recommending "feeling powerful" as a goal for unschooling
parents, just talking about taking a step away from controling kids
toward radical unschooling. I was not in a radical
unschooling/mindful parenting frame of mind when he was making noise,
I was in a tired, grumpy, thinking punishment was called for kind of
mood. So focusing on myself and my actions were the first step. After
that, I started thinking about our afternoons and how they've changed
over the last month, what ds needs and wasn't getting, and we've
talked about it together.

--aj

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll
<fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> The philosophical idea people would like to get across is becoming
your
> child's partner.
>
> But maybe part of the problem in trying to explain it is that
parents who
> control already think they are being, if not a partner, at least
being
> helpful. They're "helping" their kids make the right choice by
preventing
> them from making the wrong choices.
>
> So it's much easier and more direct to say "Stop controlling."
>
> Is there a better way to get the concepts across?
>
> Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/8/05 12:23:31 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< Can we have a B- answer about worrying t TV is occupying an awfully big
amount of one's child's life? (I'm no
Z*t worried about "mind rot", just about balance.) I need to deal with the
whole "really reluctant to go out" scenario with James.
>>

If he spent the same amount of time on reading or writing, would you still
worry?

Instead of looking at it as one big lump of "TV," can you look at it instead
as music, mysteries, history, art, adventure, humor or whatever all he's
watching?

Sandra

Jason & Stephanie

So far I've created a Word doc called "More Than Nothing" and have
pasted two old posts from UB in it and added one original thought!

The two old posts from UB are
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/message/858 and
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/message/1008, if you
want to take a look.

*****It seems that you have to be a member to access these.

Stephanie in PA
Kieran (9) Brennan(6) Cassandra(5) Jared(2)

True learning- learning that is permanent and useful, that leads to intelligent action
and further learning- can arise only out of the experience, interests and concerns of the learner.
~John Holt

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cyndi

>
> Instead of looking at it as one big lump of "TV," can you look at
it instead as music, mysteries, history, art, adventure, humor or
whatever all he's watching?
>
I was just thinking how much *I* benefit from TV. Sure, I read the
paper and I read books, but the vast portion of my entertainment and
informational needs are met by the news, excellent shows,
documentaries, movies. I think I'm pretty "balanced". I certainly
wouldn't deny my kids the TV experience.

I really think that TV isn't the enemy and that kids do learn and
grow and are balanced even if they seem to watch TV ALL THE TIME. I
say that you should order as many channels as you can afford to give
them as many options as you can! We carry the full boat of channels
on cable here and it's like the one utility I would NEVER consider
cutting down on! We'll start wearing sweaters before I cut down on
the movie channels.

The computer is in our 9 yo dd's room right now and I JUST looked
over at her TV to see what she was watching...I know she WAS
watching Full House...now she is watching (unbeknownst to me till
this moment) a PBS Frontline documentary on Dubai. ???Where'd that
come from? She says it's interesting to learn about how they live
over there. I think that's a pretty cool unschooling moment right
there, one that probably wouldn't have happened if I restricted the
TV. It's also pretty cool to hear her belly laugh over "Raven",
which I've never heard her do while reading a book!

Cyndi

Cyndi

[email protected]

Okay I agree in finding the good in everything they do... but what do you do when they spend 10 hours on the computer? My 15 yr old daughter could spend all a day and late night on the computer. Talking to others and role playing for hours on end. To the point that she doesn't move from that chair unless told to do something. Now I will say that if we have something to do out of the house she will willingly go or if i ask her to do some kind of chore she does it but heads right back to the computer. I really don't want to limit it but sometimes I just want to pull the plug so she will do anything else... The more I think about it she does do other things while on the computer... knit, watch documentaries, talk to the rest of us... anyway just need to hear all the reasons why letting her on there constantly is okay... I guess every once in awhile you just need someone else to say "it's okay"

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/9/05 8:57:01 AM, DDecoeur@... writes:

<< My 15 yr old daughter could spend all a day and late night on the
computer. >>

By saying "could," I'm guessing she hasn't been given a chance to show you
whether that's true or not. And not once, but many times.

When my kids have a new game, they can play for ten hours in a day. I take
them food where they are.

When Kirby first got a DSL line, he was on the computer a LOT, downloading
cool things he could never download with dial-up, looking at movie reviews and
humor sites that just didn't work fast enough to make it worth it before.

Now, maybe six weeks later, he can go whole days without even turning the
computer on.

This shows me something I thought I should point out to you. I'm just
holding a mirror up to what you wrote in a single paragraph:

-=- she doesn't move from that chair unless told to do something. . . .The
more I think about it she does do other things while on the computer... knit,
watch documentaries, talk to the rest of us... -=-

All in one single paragraph, you realized you were wrong in your
characterization of your daughter's behavior. That seems to indicate to me that you were
just parotting what others had said or what you were afraid others might say
when you first wrote, and by the end of the paragraph you were anticipating
what we might write or think, and switched to really looking at your daughter
directly.

You could just look at your daughter directly ALL the time. Let the initial
negative thoughts go by, maybe consider what internal voice you're hearing
(mom? grandmother? grumpy aunt?) and give that internal critic less access to
your immediate thoughts in the future. Worry more about your daughter's
happiness and learning than you worry about what others will think about the clock
at your house.

-=-anyway just need to hear all the reasons why letting her on there
constantly is okay...-=-

She's not on there constantly. You said so yourself.

But instead of this:
-=-she doesn't move from that chair unless told to do something. -=-

Maybe stop telling her to do something.

Maybe start paying MORE attention to what she likes, what she's learning and
seeing and getting out of being online, and if something else has to be done,
YOU do it. And bring her a drink and a snack where she is.

She will NOT stay on forever. And your relationship with her will improve.
And your awareness of your daughter will improve. And your worth as a partner
to her will be renewed if you stop being her judge and jury and the one who
makes her stop doing what she wants to do.

Maybe you've never felt like her partner before. Maybe you used to but have
moved away from it. If she wants to do something, you could see it as your
job to help make sure she CAN do that. If it's knit, you get her more yarn and
patterns, right? If she wants to watch a documentary, you would look up the
time it's on, or rent it for her, right? If she wants to be on the computer,
make sure the chair is comfortable, there's not a glare on the screen, and that
she is uninterrupted.

-=-I guess every once in awhile you just need someone else to say "it's
okay"-=-

It's okay!
It's great!

But it will help your unschooling immeasurably if you come to know WHY it's
okay.

Don't let her stay on the computer because some unschoolers somewhere sent
e-mail saying it's okay. You yourself look at it and think about it until you
KNOW it's okay, without anyone telling you.

Sandra

kayb85

" I need to deal with the whole "really reluctant to go out"
scenario with James."

I deal with the exact same thing. Are you or your husband like that
too? My kids, especially my middle child Matt, don't particularly
like to go out.

Whenever I worry, I remember that my husband is exactly the same
way. He doesn't enjoy vacations, he doesn't enjoy going out to eat
very often, he certainly doesn't enjoy museums or historical sites,
he doesn't enjoy crowds of people or meeting new people. Last year
we didn't go anywhere on vacation and he was THRILLED. I mentioned
to him that it would be nice to slowly put money aside for something
like Disney World, and he said that instead of spending money on a
trip he'd rather spend money on making his home more like a vacation
resort. His philosophy is that he has everything he needs right
here, so why should he want to leave. My kids feel the same way.
I do not. I love my home, I love my family, we have lots of fun
together at home. But sometimes I do my best to drag some of them
somewhere to get the heck out of the house sometimes.


So anyway, I'm usually okay with their homebodyness (is that a word?
lol) and chalk it up to personality differences and their highly
sensitive person-ness. My son Matt doesn't even want to go trick or
treating next year because "the candy smells like the person's house
that it came from". But his own house smells just right I guess
(lol) and it's just the right temperature and has just the right
stuff and there is no discomfort here according to him. I'm
*usually* okay with it and only occasionally worry that it's a
social/emotional problem of some sort.

Sheila

nellebelle

>>>>but what do you do when they spend 10 hours on the computer? My 15 yr old daughter could spend all a day and late night on the computer.>>>>>

What a gift to give a child - allowing them to do what they really want to be doing at that moment. I would love to have 10 hours a day for even one week to spend on the computer. There are so many things I would like to read, explore, and figure out with my computer. All too soon she will have other responsibilities that will be important enough to her that she will spend less time on the computer. Or she will find a way to earn money through computers, maybe!

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On Feb 8, 2005, at 7:58 PM, DDecoeur@... wrote:

> The more I think about it she does do other things while on the
> computer... knit, watch documentaries, talk to the rest of us...
> anyway just need to hear all the reasons why letting her on there
> constantly is okay... I guess every once in awhile you just need
> someone else to say "it's okay"

I really think it is okay. All three of my girls have gone through such
times - for months or years <G>. My 14 yo is into it right now. But
they do other things, are ready and willing to go out, they read, they
go to movies and watch tv. My oldest (20) talks on the phone to her
boyfriend who lives 2 hours away - but she doesn't spend much time on
the computer. She is now a full-time college student and very very busy
with school and work. My 17 yo spends a fair amount of time online,
probably several hours per day - she has friends all over the world -
she spends some time playing SIMS, but is out of the house a lot with
theater, music, and dance activities. My 14 yo plays soccer and does
karate and is in Girl Scouts - goes to movies with friends and plays
video games. They've all had months and months where they spent lots of
time on the computer - 10 hours a day? Yes. Middle of the night - going
to bed at 1 or 2 in the morning or even later? Yes.

They're fine.

-pam

Faith Pickell

On Wednesday, February 9, 2005, at 10:43 AM, kayb85 wrote:
>
> ******I do not. I love my home, I love my family, we have lots of fun
> together at home. But sometimes I do my best to drag some of them
> somewhere to get the heck out of the house sometimes.
>
Sounds like a great opportunity to go off by yourself and take a
vacation. Run Girl Run! You and your family will be happy doing what
they want!

> Faith
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Robyn Coburn

<<<<Those are pretty much the big three parenting issues that unschoolers
tell beginners to let go of control of :-)>>>

I call them the Big Six that come up cyclically:
TV, Food, Sleep, Electronic Gaming, Chores, and kinda lumped all together
Personal Hygiene/Teeth/Appearance.

Robyn L. Coburn

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