elizabeth braddock

Hi everyone! My name is Robin and I began
homeschooling my 9yr. old son in early November. He
had a very difficult time learning anything in public
school; at least it seemed that way to his father and
I. His school days all became about his "lack of
performance" and his "unsatisfactory behavior issues"
due to his diagnosis of ADHD. All of his teachers
have always said that he is a "very intelligent child
who just seems to refuse to learn!" Urggghhh! We
were spending so much time at night helping him learn
what he didnt in school and he excelled at home in the
very areas the school said he was far behind in that I
began to feel I could do a way better job than the
school had done thusfar. And I would enjoy it too. :)

Anyway, after having read book after book on the
subject of homseschooling I finally decided that we
would probably end up taking an eclectic approach to
homeschooling, leaning more predominantly towards
unschooling. Since I have joined this unschooling
discussion list however, I find that I really knew
very little about what unschooling really is; what it
really looks like. I am still trying to find my way
and decide if unschooling, as I see it here portrayed,
is going to be the way to go for us. I still have
much to learn. Right now my son has an aversion to
anything that might come close to "education",
"school", and "learning". I have tried to just relax
with him and get him relaxed. I am trying to help him
appreciate that he learns all the time everyday. Im
not sure how long a time the deschooling process takes
and wonder about that too. (I know it probably differs
from child to child) I have been taking him on field
trips, reading alot with him which he loves and
letting him just be. He prefers to sleep in until
11am or so, play video games, read and complain alot
about how bored he is. :)

My question is this: The state of Washington has a
relatively lenient policy on homeschooling, however
they do require an annual non-test assessment or
standardized test. Since these tests are, im
assuming, going to be covering the 11 subject area
requirements Wa. insists you cover each year, how does
your child ever pass, for lack of a better word, if he
is being unschooled? If your child refuses to learn
math, history, science, etc. and those are the things
the test covers how will he fare? Is he going to feel
like a failure because he knew very little to nothing
covered in the test? Tests were about the hardest
thing for my son; he always came home feeling hopeless
and stupid because he would freeze up and either not
finish in time or feel he had done very poorly. Do
unschoolers see these tests as useless, meaningless
and just a formality to go through in order to keep
the government happy but promptly ignore them once
they are over? I am asking these things because I
sincerely want to know, want to understand, and want
the best for my son, like all of us here.

Through the parent qualifying course I had to take
and all of my reading it has always been stressed that
there is no one right way to homeschool; you just have
to find the one that most comfortably fits your family
style and beliefs. So I am trying to determine if
unschooling is the way for my family to go. Like I
said, I have so much to learn. While I like most of
what I have heard about unschooling, the issue of the
yearly test just stumps me.

Thank you very much for any responses and help.

Sincerely, Robin



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/31/2005 5:50:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
elizabeth_braddock2002@... writes:

-=-Right now my son has an aversion to
anything that might come close to "education",
"school", and "learning". I have tried to just relax
with him and get him relaxed. I am trying to help him
appreciate that he learns all the time everyday. =\=

Maybe he would appreciate it better if you said "Just take the rest of the
year off, and we'll discuss again in August what we want to do."

While he thinks it's just time off, you could work on seeing how natural
learning can work.
I would advise keeping him out of it. He doesn't need to know how
unschooling works right now. He needs to veg out, play games, do art, build Lego,
play with the dog, or your local equivalent of all that.



-=- Im
not sure how long a time the deschooling process takes
and wonder about that too. (I know it probably differs
from child to child) I have been taking him on field
trips, reading alot with him which he loves and
letting him just be.-=-

Since before I was ever unschooling at all, people've said one month for
every year of school. Problem is, that goes for moms too. So while a kid
might be all recovered in a few months, the mom is likely to keep NOT getting it,
unless she puts some concerted effort into moving toward it all the time.

For instance "field trips"--field as opposed to what?
Field trip is a school-term, for a once-a-year foray into the real world.
There can't really be a "field trip" from real life.

-=-He prefers to sleep in until
11am or so, play video games, read and complain alot
about how bored he is. :) -=-

Here's an article on boredom. It's short and (I think) painless:
_http://sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore_ (http://sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore)

-=-however
they do require an annual non-test assessment or
standardized test. Since these tests are, im
assuming, going to be covering the 11 subject area
requirements Wa. insists you cover each year, how does
your child ever pass, for lack of a better word, if he
is being unschooled? -=-

Standardized tests will never cover 11 subject areas. They cover reading
and math and maybe grammar. IF they have a science or history section, that
too will be reading (read this passage and answer some multiple choice
questions, or read each question and pick the least ridiculous answer).

But non-test assessment might mean saying "Reads better, visited twelve
interesting places and six museums, built a castle out of gingerbread. . .
whatever all. Might be less than that. Might involve hiring someone to meet with
him a while and note that he seems fine for his age. Ask unschoolers where
you are, though, instead of assuming what tests are like.

-=- If your child refuses to learn
math, history, science, etc. and those are the things
the test covers how will he fare? -=-

"Refuses to learn" can't happen with unschooling.
When learning is fun and natural, kids learn without thinking about it.

If parents refuse to learn how unschooling works, though, homeschooling can
be so frustrating for the whole family that a child ends up back in school.

Unschooling can be really, really wonderful, but it does involve a change of
attitude and awareness for the parents.

-=-Is he going to feel
like a failure because he knew very little to nothing
covered in the test?-=-

My kids never took a test. When Kirby took accuplacer tests at 18, he did
pretty well.


-=-Tests were about the hardest
thing for my son; he always came home feeling hopeless
and stupid because he would freeze up and either not
finish in time or feel he had done very poorly. -=-

You don't want to give him other opportunity to feel hopeless and stupid and
freeze up and do poorly, do you? If testing is an option, don't take that
option. If testing at home is an option, read this:
_http://sandradodd.com/tests_ (http://sandradodd.com/tests)


-=Do
unschoolers see these tests as useless, meaningless
and just a formality to go through in order to keep
the government happy but promptly ignore them once
they are over? -=-

Everyone sees them that way, not just unschoolers.
How else can they be seen?
Well, they can be seen as cutthroat competition, or as an exercise totally
separate from evidence that the knowledge dwells in the test subjects in any
useful form. Some people "test well" whether they know the material at all.
Some people don't test well under any circumstances.

They are meaningless formalities, pretty much.

-=- I am asking these things because I
sincerely want to know, want to understand, and want
the best for my son, like all of us here. -=-

We don't all want the same things. For some people, "best" means learning
obedience and fitting in with the other kids at soccer. For some, it means
being advanced academically, to impress the grandparents and to flip off the
aunts and uncles. For some people "best" means most at peace.

-=-Through the parent qualifying course I had to take
and all of my reading it has always been stressed that
there is no one right way to homeschool; you -=-

You had to take a course to be a parent!?
You "had to" take a course to homeschool?

Sandra





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nellebelle

I'm in WA. We have plenty of unschoolers and the legal requirements are very easy to meet.

Check out [email protected] (unschool-leaning list) [email protected] (statewide list - excellent for legal questions but members run the gamut from Christian school at home to Unschooling.)
http://www.washhomeschool.org/ (tons of info specific to WA, including local support group info)

>>>>>however they do require an annual non-test assessment or standardized test. Since these tests are, im assuming, going to be covering the 11 subject area requirements Wa. insists you cover each year, how does your child ever pass, for lack of a better word, if he
is being unschooled? >>>>>

Have you read the law? Children are not required to pass anything. The test/assessment is for the parent to judge progress (as if we need a test for that, but that is what the law says). I've never asked my children to take standardized tests. I use the assessment option through familylearning.org. (Just one way to do it. There are other ways, but I find FLO non-intrusive and reasonably affordable.)

>>>So I am trying to determine if unschooling is the way for my family to go.>>>

Unschooling is awesome!

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

elizabeth braddock

--- SandraDodd@... wrote:

I am trying to help
> him
> appreciate that he learns all the time everyday.
> =\=
>
> > While he thinks it's just time off, you could work
> on seeing how natural
> learning can work.
> I would advise keeping him out of it. He doesn't
> need to know how
> unschooling works right now. He needs to veg out,
> play games, do art, build Lego,
> play with the dog, or your local equivalent of all
> that.
>
Like I said and shared with my son, learning does
take place all the time, in a variety of different
ways. I havent shared with him the ins and outs of
unschooling vs any other kind of homeschooling. He is
just being relaxed right now. I realize learning
takes place quite naturally.
>
>
>) I have been taking him on
> field
> trips, reading alot with him which he loves and
> letting him just be.-=-
>
>
> For instance "field trips"--field as opposed to
> what?
> Field trip is a school-term, for a once-a-year foray
> into the real world.
> There can't really be a "field trip" from real life.
>
He actually is the one who calls them field trips
and likes that term. It is one of the few school
terms if you will that he loves and so in the name of
his comfort level I too refer and will continue to
refer to them as field trips. :) And in the sense of
leaving home and traveling afield so to speak it is
actually not a misnomer at all. Yes, I realize you
can go no farther than your own backyard to have
wonderful times as well.

> -=-He prefers to sleep in until
> 11am or so, play video games, read and complain
> alot
> about how bored he is. :) -=-
>
> Here's an article on boredom. It's short and (I
> think) painless:
> _http://sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore_
> (http://sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore)
>
Short or long, it makes no difference to me; Im an
avid reader. Thanks very much for the article. I
look forward to reading it.

>> Standardized tests will never cover 11 subject
> areas. They cover reading
> and math and maybe grammar. IF they have a science
> or history section, that
> too will be reading (read this passage and answer
> some multiple choice
> questions or read each question and pick the least
> ridiculous answer).
>
I based my assumption on a few different responses
from other homeschoolers, ex-unschoolers and a couple
of teachers in my area. I guess in the sense that
they read a passage that may pertain to social studies
or science, etc. it is in fact touching on most of the
11 subjects. But given the climate of fear there is
in my area regarding unschooling my question I thought
was a valid, intelligent one and who better to ask
than actual unschoolers who Im sure only want to
welcome prospective unschoolers and allay their fears.

> But non-test assessment might mean saying "Reads
> better, visited twelve
> interesting places and six museums, built a castle
> out of gingerbread. . .
> whatever all. Might be less than that. Might
> involve hiring someone to meet with
> him a while and note that he seems fine for his age.
> Ask unschoolers where
> you are, though, instead of assuming what tests are
> like.
>
It might mean all of those things...that is why I was
hoping to hear from someone who had taken the various
types of mandatory tests so I could know what to
expect beforehand, not after. And again, I based my
assumptions on the info I had already been given. And
then lest I was steered wrong, I inquired further on
this friendly list. :)

> -=- If your child refuses to learn
> math, history, science, etc. and those are the
> things
> the test covers how will he fare? -=-
>
> "Refuses to learn" can't happen with unschooling.
> When learning is fun and natural, kids learn without
> thinking about it.
>
Well give me time..remember I am new at this as we
all were once upon a time but I have yet to find a way
to have him "learn" math in a fun way he will go for.

> If parents refuse to learn how unschooling works,
> though, homeschooling can
> be so frustrating for the whole family that a child
> ends up back in school.
>
Well again, that is why I am availing myself of this
wonderful list, so that I might learn more about it
beyond what I have heard shared with me and the books
read on the subject. I dont see anyone refusing to
learn.

> Unschooling can be really, really wonderful, but it
> does involve a change of
> attitude and awareness for the parents.
>
Unlike any other homeschooling method unschooling
appears to be an entire way of life as opposed to a
style of teaching. Do unschoolers feel that it is the
only way to homeschool successfully? Or that it is
the best, right way to go about it? Or like
everything I have heard thusfar, there are many ways
to go about homeschooling and unschooling is just one
of them? No one right way, just what works for each
individual family?

> -=-Is he going to feel
> like a failure because he knew very little to
> nothing
> covered in the test?-=-
>
> My kids never took a test. When Kirby took
> accuplacer tests at 18, he did
> pretty well.
>
Well, Im happy for you and Kirby. Unfortunately, my
laws say that my child has to have either an annual
standardized test or non-test assessment. It isnt
optional.
>
>
> You don't want to give him other opportunity to feel
> hopeless and stupid and
> freeze up and do poorly, do you? If testing is an
> option, don't take that
> option. If testing at home is an option, read this:
> _http://sandradodd.com/tests_
> (http://sandradodd.com/tests)
>
> Of course not. Like I said, it isnt an option.

> -=Do
> unschoolers see these tests as useless, meaningless
> and just a formality to go through in order to keep
> the government happy but promptly ignore them once
> they are over? -=-
>
> Everyone sees them that way, not just unschoolers.
> How else can they be seen?
> Well, they can be seen as cutthroat competition, or
> as an exercise totally
> separate from evidence that the knowledge dwells in
> the test subjects in any
> useful form. Some people "test well" whether they
> know the material at all.
> Some people don't test well under any circumstances.
>
> Sorry, I dont perceive all tests as cutthroat
competion or as useless. Many, yes, but certainly not
all. So I guess you are going to have to amend your
earlier assertion that everyone sees them that way and
that that is the only way they can be seen.

> -=- I am asking these things because I
> sincerely want to know, want to understand, and
> want
> the best for my son, like all of us here. -=-
>
> We don't all want the same things. For some people,
> "best" means learning
> obedience and fitting in with the other kids at
> soccer. For some, it means
> being advanced academically, to impress the
> grandparents and to flip off the
> aunts and uncles. For some people "best" means most
> at peace.
>
Im curious why you feel the need to take exception to
pretty much everything I have written even though I
have written my queries out of a sincere desire to
further understand unschooling without having to be
cut down for my attempts to gain more knowledge and
understanding?
I think I stand by my earlier statement, we all want
what is best for our children. I didnt say for me or
his father or his grandparents...I simply said for my
son. Is it not fair to say that you too want what is
best for your children? Im sure it is.

> -=-Through the parent qualifying course I had to
> take
> and all of my reading it has always been stressed
> that
> there is no one right way to homeschool; you -=-
>
> You had to take a course to be a parent!?
> You "had to" take a course to homeschool?
>
See, this is part of what Im referring to. You take
something I say and try to twist it in a way to
belittle my statements. Obviously you know I did not
have to take a course to be a parent. I did however
have to take a Parent Qualifying Course in order to
legally homeschool my son. So yes, I had to take a
course to homeschool. I did not have the requisite
college requirements under my belt.

I wish everyone here well and Sandra, I wish you a
good night. :)

Sincerely, Robin


> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

elizabeth braddock

--- nellebelle <nellebelle@...> wrote:

>
> Have you read the law? Children are not required to
> pass anything. The test/assessment is for the
> parent to judge progress (as if we need a test for
> that, but that is what the law says). I've never
> asked my children to take standardized tests. I use
> the assessment option through familylearning.org.
> (Just one way to do it. There are other ways, but I
> find FLO non-intrusive and reasonably affordable.)
>
Yes, I have read the law, many times. :) I realize
that the "test results", for that is how it is worded,
are only given to the parent and not passed on to
anyone else. But by virtue of calling them test
results it implies that there will be some form of
measuring your childs progress or lack thereof. The
law also reads that if your child appears to be
lacking in any area then that area will be pointed out
so that the parent can make a concerted effort to
rectify the situation and bring the child up to speed
in that area or areas. I too will go with the
non-assessment test as I have heard it is less
stressful, etc. But even with that it still is a
measuring yardstick of your child and your progress in
homeschooling. At least that is what a teacher who
gives the assessment has said.

> >>>So I am trying to determine if unschooling is the
> way for my family to go.>>>
>
> Unschooling is awesome!
>
Thank you, Mary Ellen for your words of encouragment.
Im sure it is and hope it is the best course to take
with my son. Only time will tell as I learn more. :)

Sincerely, Robin

> Mary Ellen
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com

Fetteroll

on 2/1/05 2:01 AM, elizabeth braddock at elizabeth_braddock2002@...
wrote:

> but I have yet to find a way
> to have him "learn" math in a fun way he will go for.

Rather than looking at math and trying to figure out how to get it into him,
look and him and notice how he reaches out and uses math.

Math is one tool we use to get what we want: to figure out if we have enough
money, how long until Dad gets home, how long until we can save up for
something, which item is a better deal, how many more battles until we can
move up a level in a video game.

Math is probably the hardest "subject" to let go of because learning math
naturally by living -- basically figuring out how numbers work -- looks so
totally different -- and inadequate! -- compared to school math. But once
you see a child manipulating numbers in his head because he understands how
numbers can be morphed to make the answer he wants come out, then you can
start to understand what "unschooling math" really is.

> Do unschoolers feel that it is the
> only way to homeschool successfully?

Depends on your meaning of success.

If a parent's goal is to get their child into Harvard, is unschooling the
only (or best) way? No. In fact unschooling would be a poor way to meet that
goal.

(Though unschooled kids do get into Harvard. The difference is that it's the
child's goal to go, not the parent's. The child reachs out and prepares
himself because that's what he wants rather than the parent pushing what she
thinks is necessary into the child.)

Unschoolers generally have different goals than most people. Unschoolers
aren't trying to shape their kids into being the best they can be (or
however a parent words it). Unschoolers are trying to help their kids be who
they already are.

So neither curriculum or unit studies or eclectic homeschooling or any of
the other homeschooling methods are going to move an unschooling parent
towards that goal.

> Or like
> everything I have heard thusfar, there are many ways
> to go about homeschooling and unschooling is just one
> of them? No one right way, just what works for each
> individual family?

Depends on your goals. Depends on your priorities.

Unschooling is very relationship oriented. It's about being a child's
partner in the child's exploration of the world.

Other methods are more oriented towards helping a parent get what a parent
wants into a child.

> I think I stand by my earlier statement, we all want
> what is best for our children.

I think Sandra's point in pulling this out is to help you see that while
wanting what's best for our children may be true of all "good" parents on
the surface, not all parents define best the same way. So if we assume we
all want "what's best" and go about talking about "what's best", people will
think they're all talking about the same thing but some may be defining best
as obedience to God, getting a child into Harvard, helping a child be happy,
turning the child into a well rounded person, helping a child be kind and so
on.

There isn't one way to get to all those definitions of "best"! In fact some
ways will be incompatible with some definitions.

So it will help you help yourself better if you think about what you mean by
"best for your child". What do you want to give him or help him get? (And an
unschooler will ask, what does your son want? And how can you help him get
that? :-)

> Sorry, I dont perceive all tests as cutthroat
> competion or as useless.

Actually your original question wasn't about all tests but "these tests",
the state required tests.

So in answer to your question:

> Do
> unschoolers see these tests as useless, meaningless
> and just a formality to go through in order to keep
> the government happy but promptly ignore them once
> they are over?

It's kind of a sticky, tricky question! ;-)

"Unschooler" is a self applied label rather than a title given to those who
fully get unschooling. So people who call themselves unschoolers can still
have all sorts of school-think baggage that they're working on getting rid
of. So it's hard to answer questions in terms of "Do unschoolers think ...?"

It's more helpful to think in terms of what ideas help people unschool and
what ideas don't help.

People who really "get" unschooling understand the meaninglessness of the
state mandated tests.

Getting to and really understanding why the tests are meaningless will help
someone get unschooling.

Joyce

Fetteroll

We've never done this but usually it gets mentioned each year. It's a
project that's been going on for 8 years managed by Cornell Lab of
Ornithology and the National Audubon Society.

http://www.birdsource.org/gbbc/

It's a 4 day event -- Feb 18-21 -- to count and get to know your bird
neighbors :-) You don't need to do it all 4 days.

There's a tally sheet for each state (some states are divided into smaller
pieces). And there's some tips on how to do it and some help on identifying
some of the trickier ones.

Joyce

Angela S

I think if you read all these posts with the thought that you are sitting
across the table from the writer with a cup of tea just trying to understand
each other's point of view that it will benefit you. Picture friendly faces
and a pleasant tone of voice.



>>>But given the climate of fear there is
in my area regarding unschooling my question I thought
was a valid, intelligent one and who better to ask
than actual unschoolers who Im sure only want to
welcome prospective unschoolers and allay their fears.>>>



Is there a valid reason that there is a climate of fear surrounding
unschooling in your area?

Has someone you know been prosecuted for failing to meet the requirements?
If they have, do you

Know the details or is it hearsay? I am wondering if there was a case and
if the case was justified.

Was there really educational neglect? Was there abuse? Do you really need
to worry about the government

Coming a knocking on your door? What things in your life are similar to
theirs?



>>It might mean all of those things...that is why I was
hoping to hear from someone who had taken the various
types of mandatory tests so I could know what to
expect beforehand, not after.>>>



It sounds like you need to find a different teacher/reviewer because the
laws of your state sound similar to mine and it's very easy to meet the
requirements depending on who you have for a teacher. If they expect a
curriculum to be done cover to cover, then they aren't the evaluator for me.




>> And again, I based my
assumptions on the info I had already been given. And
then lest I was steered wrong, I inquired further on
this friendly list. :) >>>



I think Sandra was trying to be helpful. To help you see things from the
perspective of a person who has been unschooling for a long time,
successfully. Maybe you could try to re-read what she wrote and picture her
writing it with a joyful tone in her voice, someone honestly trying to help
you get it.


>>>> "Refuses to learn" can't happen with unschooling.
> When learning is fun and natural, kids learn without
> thinking about it.
>
Well give me time..remember I am new at this as we
all were once upon a time but I have yet to find a way
to have him "learn" math in a fun way he will go for.>>>>



So do you not want people to point out how they can help you get to
unschooling quicker? Would you rather not have input? If you do want
input, continue asking questions and reading here. Sometimes it isn't very
comfortable to have people respond to you when they are suggesting different
ways to do things or different ways to think about something.



Math is in life all around us. It just doesn't look like school math. You
don't need to find a way for him to learn math in a fun way, you just need
to see how he uses math already in real life.



>>>Well again, that is why I am availing myself of this
wonderful list, so that I might learn more about it
beyond what I have heard shared with me and the books
read on the subject. I dont see anyone refusing to
learn.>>>



Some people come here and ask lots of questions and get great responses and
then spend hours of their time justifying what they already do. They aren't
looking to really get it or they just can't seem to get past what 13+ years
of schooling has caused them believe about learning. (That it's difficult
and unpleasant and something you have to make humans do.) It's too
uncomfortable for some people to have the level of trust in the learning
process that it takes to unschool.

> Unschooling can be really, really wonderful, but it
> does involve a change of
> attitude and awareness for the parents.
>
Unlike any other homeschooling method unschooling
appears to be an entire way of life as opposed to a
style of teaching. >>>



Absolutely. It is a way of life.



>>> Do unschoolers feel that it is the
only way to homeschool successfully?>>>



That depends on your definition of success. My goal is to have happy,
healthy, confident children that believe in their abilities and that know
that the world is theirs for the discovering. I am here to help them get
what they want. I think the best way to reach that goal is through
unschooling. If I didn't think unschooling was the best way to reach that
goal, I wouldn't be doing it.



>>> Or that it is
the best, right way to go about it? Or like
everything I have heard thusfar, there are many ways
to go about homeschooling and unschooling is just one
of them? No one right way, just what works for each
individual family? >>>



Unschoooling is the only respectful way to homeschool in my opinion. When
you sit a child/person down and tell them what they have to do to be
successful and then grade them on it, it isn't very respectful of them.

> -=-Is he going to feel
> like a failure because he knew very little to
> nothing
> covered in the test?-=-
>
> My kids never took a test. When Kirby took
> accuplacer tests at 18, he did
> pretty well.
>
>Well, Im happy for you and Kirby. Unfortunately, my
>laws say that my child has to have either an annual
>standardized test or non-test assessment. It isnt
>optional.



See, but it is optional, if I am reading your requirements correctly. You
can keep a log book of what he has done. No testing required.



> -=Do
> unschoolers see these tests as useless, meaningless
> and just a formality to go through in order to keep
> the government happy but promptly ignore them once
> they are over? -=-



If my kids had to take tests, that is exactly how I would see them. But we
have a portfolio option similar to yours. I can bring a log of what they
have done or even just talk about what they have done and still have the
paperwork signed. It really depends on the attitude of the teacher. Keep
looking until you find one you like. Other unschoolers in your state can
help you with this.


>>>>> We don't all want the same things. For some people,
> "best" means learning
> obedience and fitting in with the other kids at
> soccer. For some, it means
> being advanced academically, to impress the
> grandparents and to flip off the
> aunts and uncles. For some people "best" means most
> at peace.
>
Im curious why you feel the need to take exception to
pretty much everything I have written even though I
have written my queries out of a sincere desire to
further understand unschooling without having to be
cut down for my attempts to gain more knowledge and
understanding?>>>>



I find when someone questions my assumptions that I really learn the most.
When people agree with me on all counts, I rarely stretch and grow. If you
had read here for a while before you posted, you would have seen Sandra's
writing style and maybe not been so offended by what she wrote. This isn't
personal, it's about discussing ideas. Even if these ideas don't help you,
they might help someone else who is reading but not writing.


>>>I think I stand by my earlier statement, we all want
what is best for our children. I didnt say for me or
his father or his grandparents...I simply said for my
son. Is it not fair to say that you too want what is
best for your children? Im sure it is.>>>



If you feel that something that is written here doesn't pertain to you, then
don't take it personally. Just clarify. It isn't personal. This is a
discussion list.

>>>I did however
have to take a Parent Qualifying Course in order to
legally homeschool my son. So yes, I had to take a
course to homeschool. I did not have the requisite
college requirements under my belt.>>>



I didn't know that any states required you to have college under your belt
to homeschool. I wonder how many states require that?

Angela

Game-enthusiast@...





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/2005 7:11:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
> Unschooling is very relationship oriented. It's about being a child's
> partner in the child's exploration of the world.


That's how I see unschooling. I help them find what they need. I offer all
I can to help them find out things, or do things that interest them. It's a
whirlwind at times. Sometimes interests fly by at break-neck speed, others
linger for long periods of time. I help them with resources. I don't know what
it is like to unschool an older, and maybe more independent child. Right now
we are very close because I am their door-opener, researcher, etc. But in all
of that, they are learning so much and finding ways to open doors and
research on their own.

I still have "schoolie" stuff floating about my head and wonder if I'll ever
be rid of it. But it's easy most of the time because I make it all about
them and not about me. I'd love to see them become successful, happy, secure
adults. But that could be anything to THEM.

Unschooling, to me, is a huge concept. It means many, many things. I think
I have a lot of it and yet there is still so much to do and learn.

Pamela


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:01 PM, elizabeth braddock wrote:

> Unlike any other homeschooling method unschooling
> appears to be an entire way of life as opposed to a
> style of teaching.

True. Life is learning, learning is life - you really can't apply that
slogan to any other lifestyle. ALL others think of learning as
something that happens when teaching is going on and that there are
times to learn and times of not learning. Unschoolers do not think of
life and learning as two separate things. "I live therefore I learn."

> Do unschoolers feel that it is the
> only way to homeschool successfully?

No. In fact, I don't think it is a good way for everybody. I think it
takes an intensity and focus on living life with a great deal of gusto
and that a lot of people don't have that. I also think that the parents
have to have a certain level of sensitivity to their children to know
what to offer, when to support, when to back off, how busy they want to
be, how much solitude they need, when to nudge them a bit with
encouragement, when to get more involved, etc. AND parents need to be
able to always have their kids and their interests in the back of their
minds, thinking always about what would interest them and bringing the
world to them and them to the world in ways that "click" for that
particular child. It takes willingness to have important midnight
conversations and to scoop worms out of the ground and keep them on
your kitchen counter and to trust as your child takes her first train
ride alone and on and on. I don't think it is right for everybody and I
think there are kids better off with other kinds of homeschooling
because their PARENTS aren't able or willing to put the energy into
unschooling that I think it needs.

> Or that it is the best, right way to go about it? Or like
> everything I have heard thusfar, there are many ways
> to go about homeschooling and unschooling is just one
> of them? No one right way, just what works for each
> individual family?

We could do the curriculum - I could insist on a few hours of day of
"school work," insisting that my children do it. But I've read
everything I could get my hands on about learning and I've had 30 years
of teaching experience and I know, deep down inside, that any coercion
in learning creates either active resistance, passivity, or apathy and
I don't want to create any of those in my children. Learning feels good
- it might be hard, but it is also pleasurable. Coercion feels bad and
trying to learn under coercion is not pleasurable. Children who have
only experienced the pleasure of unforced learning have an entirely
different approach to life - they have not developed resistance,
passivity, or apathy and it shows in their incredible creativity,
confidence, intensity, focus, persistence, self-knowledge, and personal
responsibility.

Not all parents WANT their children to grow up strong-willed and truly
independent-minded. Many parents mostly want their children to respect
them and to adopt their beliefs and goals. Many parents have a
definition of "success" already in their own heads and what they want
is for their children to achieve success as they define it. Many want
their children to offer living proof that they were good parents -
they're especially interested in outcomes that will impress friends,
relatives, and acquaintances.

Unschoolers have different goals that impact our day-to-day
interactions with our kids. We want our children to discover their
life's passions and to jump into them with both feet, with confidence
and trust in life and themselves. We want our children to know, deep
inside themselves, that they are strong and capable and can make their
own individual choices. We want them to be willing to buck the
mainstream culture AND buck the counterculture and think for themselves
and do what they think is right and good and worthy and valuable.

I think, most of all, we want them to love being alive - now and in
their future.

Pam Sorooshian

On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:01 PM, elizabeth braddock wrote:

> Well, Im happy for you and Kirby. Unfortunately, my
> laws say that my child has to have either an annual
> standardized test or non-test assessment. It isnt
> optional.

Testing is optional. A non-test assessment is an alternative to the
test.

-pam

Pam Sorooshian

On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:15 PM, elizabeth braddock wrote:

> I too will go with the
> non-assessment test as I have heard it is less
> stressful, etc.

It isn't a non-assessment test.

It is a non-test assessment.

-pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/05 5:11:24 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< Unschoolers generally have different goals than most people. Unschoolers
aren't trying to shape their kids into being the best they can be (or
however a parent words it). Unschoolers are trying to help their kids be who
they already are.
>>

And no one can be the best he can be if he's not being true to his own
interests and his own centered, whole self. He might be the best faker he can be,
or the best in-his-parents'-image he could be, but those compromises can come
with longterm longing for what was lost.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/05 3:37:18 AM, elizabeth_braddock2002@... writes:

<< > My kids never took a test. When Kirby took
> accuplacer tests at 18, he did
> pretty well.
>
Well, Im happy for you and Kirby. Unfortunately, my
laws say that my child has to have either an annual
standardized test or non-test assessment. It isnt
optional. >>

An assessment isn't a test. You do have options.
State law in New Mexico required tests in 3rd, 5th and 8th, when Kirby was
little. They changed it to 4th, 6th and 8th grades. Still, Kirby never took a
test.
Many New Mexico homeschoolers found options and their children weren't tested.
Others bought a test to administer at home and didn't administer it so close
to the directions that it could change their relationship with their child
into one involving numbers and measurements.

We live in a cul-de-sac and since the 1970's cars park nose in to the curb
here (we've only been here seven years, but others let us in on the deal). The
law says parallel to the curb. That would allow the or four cars t
Zo park. Nose in allows ten or so.

We could accept that "we have no option," but the option has been that if no
one in this small set of houses complains, we're all better off doing it this
way.

When my friend visited in his police car, he had to park parallel, but when
he comes in his own car he parks nose in.

Some people prefer rules and measures to flexibility and creativity, and for
them unschooling might be too stressful.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/05 3:37:18 AM, elizabeth_braddock2002@... writes:

<< I think I stand by my earlier statement, we all want
what is best for our children. I didnt say for me or
his father or his grandparents...I simply said for my
son. Is it not fair to say that you too want what is
best for your children? Im sure it is. >>

I think you're defending your original statements without wanting to think
about other input.

Did your grandparents know what was best for your mom? Your dad?

Did your parents know what was best for you?

Do I know what's best for Kirby? Marty? Holly?

For some reasons (we don't need to know, and you already know) you've moved
toward homeschooling. For some reasons you're interested in finding out more
about unschooling. For some reasons, you're resistent to input. That's okay,
and you don't need to defend yourself or argue about it, but it would
probably help the future of the learning project you're embarking on for you to try
to think about why you're defensive. You don't have to tell us a bit of it.

Howard Gardner has a book called Frames of Mind, about multiple
intelligences. I think it would be a great read for you, and you don't have to read every
word, but you can jump and skim. Others have taken those ideas and taken them
toward education, therapy, and personnel/business management, so if you go to
google and put in
multiple intelligence theory gardner
you'll probably get lots of sites that would give you the idea without even
needing to get the book.

It will help you as you're thinking about what you believe about standardized
tests, too, as it's immediately applicable to that.

But two of his intelligences are described as interpersonal and
intrapersonal. Some people have a natural talent for interpersonal awareness, for reading
other people and seeing what they might need or fear or enjoy. Some people
have a similar talent (but Gardner considers it a separate intelligence) for
self-reflective thought and self awareness.

Both of those are benefits to unschooling situations.

As an avid reader, you could soak that all up in just a few days and it could
make a difference in the rest of your life.

Sandra

Pam Sorooshian

On Feb 1, 2005, at 6:43 AM, b229d655@... wrote:

> I still have "schoolie" stuff floating about my head and wonder if
> I'll ever
> be rid of it. But it's easy most of the time because I make it all
> about
> them and not about me. I'd love to see them become successful, happy,
> secure
> adults. But that could be anything to THEM.

Repeating this. I think this is the KEY that turns the lock of the
unschooling door.

We adults may never be able to get rid of all that schoolie stuff - but
we don't have to pass it on to our kids. AND I'm so excited to see, in
the not-too-far-away future, what these unschooled kids will be like as
parents.

--pam

nellebelle

>>>>> But by virtue of calling them test results it implies that there will be some form of measuring your child's progress or lack thereof.>>>>>>

Yes, tests *claim* to measure the child, but the measuring device is a school one, and invalid and ineffective at that. My children don't go to school and don't need to measure up in that world. What child does not progress from one year to the next? It's an absurd premise.

>>>The law also reads that if your child appears to be lacking in any area then that area will be pointed out so that the parent can make a concerted effort to rectify the situation and bring the child up to speed in that area or areas>>>>>>

Where are you reading the law? It says, "The state board of education shall not require these children to meet the student learning goals, master the essential academic learning requirements,..." "If, as a result of the annual test or assessment, it is determined that the child is not making reasonable progress consistent with his or her age or stage of development, the parent shall make a good faith effort to remedy any deficiency."

I'm a stickler for being precise in what our law says vs. how people interpret it. We don't even have legal homeschooling in WA. We have children who are "receiving home-based instruction".

>>>I too will go with the non-assessment test as I have heard it is less stressful, etc. But even with that it still is a measuring yardstick of your child and your progress in homeschooling. At least that is what a teacher who gives the assessment has said.>>>>>

I don't know any teachers IRL who understand unschooling well enough to do an assessment. This is one reason I do my assessments through FLO. They do not read anything into the law's stated purpose of doing the assessment. They do what the law requires and no more. *I* do the assessment. My children do not even need to be aware of it. It does not measure them in any way.

>> I based my assumption on a few different responses from other homeschoolers, ex-unschoolers and a couple of teachers in my area.>>>>

You are asking the wrong people. Would you ask someone who roller-skates for advice on snowboarding? Would you ask someone who quit breastfeeding after a month or two for breastfeeding advice? Teachers study school, not unschooling.

>>>>But given the climate of fear there is in my area regarding unschooling>>>>>

Yes, that would make it difficult. I think you would feel a lot better if you joined [email protected]. You might even find someone physically near you on that list. At the very least, you could talk with actual unschoolers in WA and find out how easy and awesome! <g> it is.

Mary Ellen
www.aupairfoundation.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/2005 1:10:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
> We adults may never be able to get rid of all that schoolie stuff - but
> we don't have to pass it on to our kids. AND I'm so excited to see, in
> the not-too-far-away future, what these unschooled kids will be like as
> parents.


ME TOO!!!!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

Pam,

This is a great post, please consider sending it on to your Highlights list! :)

Kelli~



Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:

On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:01 PM, elizabeth braddock wrote:

> Unlike any other homeschooling method unschooling
> appears to be an entire way of life as opposed to a
> style of teaching.

True. Life is learning, learning is life - you really can't apply that
slogan to any other lifestyle. ALL others think of learning as
something that happens when teaching is going on and that there are
times to learn and times of not learning. Unschoolers do not think of
life and learning as two separate things. "I live therefore I learn."

> Do unschoolers feel that it is the
> only way to homeschool successfully?

No. In fact, I don't think it is a good way for everybody. I think it
takes an intensity and focus on living life with a great deal of gusto
and that a lot of people don't have that. I also think that the parents
have to have a certain level of sensitivity to their children to know
what to offer, when to support, when to back off, how busy they want to
be, how much solitude they need, when to nudge them a bit with
encouragement, when to get more involved, etc. AND parents need to be
able to always have their kids and their interests in the back of their
minds, thinking always about what would interest them and bringing the
world to them and them to the world in ways that "click" for that
particular child. It takes willingness to have important midnight
conversations and to scoop worms out of the ground and keep them on
your kitchen counter and to trust as your child takes her first train
ride alone and on and on. I don't think it is right for everybody and I
think there are kids better off with other kinds of homeschooling
because their PARENTS aren't able or willing to put the energy into
unschooling that I think it needs.

> Or that it is the best, right way to go about it? Or like
> everything I have heard thusfar, there are many ways
> to go about homeschooling and unschooling is just one
> of them? No one right way, just what works for each
> individual family?

We could do the curriculum - I could insist on a few hours of day of
"school work," insisting that my children do it. But I've read
everything I could get my hands on about learning and I've had 30 years
of teaching experience and I know, deep down inside, that any coercion
in learning creates either active resistance, passivity, or apathy and
I don't want to create any of those in my children. Learning feels good
- it might be hard, but it is also pleasurable. Coercion feels bad and
trying to learn under coercion is not pleasurable. Children who have
only experienced the pleasure of unforced learning have an entirely
different approach to life - they have not developed resistance,
passivity, or apathy and it shows in their incredible creativity,
confidence, intensity, focus, persistence, self-knowledge, and personal
responsibility.

Not all parents WANT their children to grow up strong-willed and truly
independent-minded. Many parents mostly want their children to respect
them and to adopt their beliefs and goals. Many parents have a
definition of "success" already in their own heads and what they want
is for their children to achieve success as they define it. Many want
their children to offer living proof that they were good parents -
they're especially interested in outcomes that will impress friends,
relatives, and acquaintances.

Unschoolers have different goals that impact our day-to-day
interactions with our kids. We want our children to discover their
life's passions and to jump into them with both feet, with confidence
and trust in life and themselves. We want our children to know, deep
inside themselves, that they are strong and capable and can make their
own individual choices. We want them to be willing to buck the
mainstream culture AND buck the counterculture and think for themselves
and do what they think is right and good and worthy and valuable.

I think, most of all, we want them to love being alive - now and in
their future.



"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com



---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<<I think, most of all, we want them to love being alive - now and in
their future.>>>

Pam, I hope you put that whole post into your Unschooling Highlights site.
It's the whole thing in a nutshell.

Robyn L. Coburn

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.852 / Virus Database: 580 - Release Date: 1/31/2005

Dana Matt

> >>>>But given the climate of fear there is in my
> area regarding unschooling>>>>>
>
> Yes, that would make it difficult. I think you
> would feel a lot better if you joined
> [email protected]. You might even find someone
> physically near you on that list. At the very
> least, you could talk with actual unschoolers in WA
> and find out how easy and awesome! <g> it is.
>

Mary Ellen and I are unschoolers at opposite ends of
the state (she in the south east, I in the extreme
north west)--where are you? You must be somewhere
between us :)

I'm in Bellingham, and I'm "under the radar". I don't
intend to test or do anything other than live our
lives. If and when I decide to "get legal" and let my
school district know that I homeschool, I don't know
what I would do--BUT I know plenty of people who
"supposedly" follow the law, and agree to take the
test, but have "not gotten around to it" for a few
years..and no one asks for it, no one notices, because
in washington it's ONLY FOR THE PARENTS!

(And I agree with Mary Ellen--join WASH! Not too many
unschoolers there, but a few)
Dana

=====
Guadalupe's Coffee Roaster
100% Organic Fair Trade Coffee
Roasted to Perfection Daily
Free Home Delivery in Whatcom County
(360) 715-1900



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

Johanna San Inocencio

<I didn't know that any states required you to have college under your belt
to homeschool. I wonder how many states require that?

Angela

Game-enthusiast@...>
In Tennessee, in order to homeschool a child of high school age, you
must have a Bachelor's degree. The only legal way around it is to use a
satellite school, then you are technically a private school student.
right now the law is also very unfair to non Christian homeschoolers
because most Satellite schools operate under the Jeter Memorandum which
gives authority to study under a church related school.

Johanna
" A man is as free as he chooses to make himself, never an atom freer."
The Raven, Lillith by George MacDonald




>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/2005 1:06:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> writes:

>We adults may never be able to get rid of all that schoolie stuff - but we don't have to pass it on to our kids. AND I'm so excited to see, in the not-too-far-away future, what these unschooled kids will be like as parents.<<<<<<<<<<<<

Cam & I talked about this a bit today. He was asking about the future. I said that I thought that, eventually, the school system would implode on itself. He asked, "In your lifetime?" I figured NOT, but he hoped it would in *his* lifetime.

I hope that too. I hope that people will simply get tired of throwing money into a bottomless pit that produces nothing but pain and apathy. I hope that our passionate, fascinating, exciting children's childhoods will be seen as worthwhile---and that they will be seen as pioneers in *real* education.

One day....

~Kelly

Angela S

Yikes! I wonder how difficult it would be to start a satellite school.
Have you looked into it?



Angela

game-enthusiast@...



>>>In Tennessee, in order to homeschool a child of high school age, you
must have a Bachelor's degree. The only legal way around it is to use a
satellite school,>>>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-=- I wonder how difficult it would be to start a satellite school.
>Have you looked into it?-=-


I've always liked the sound of "The Church of John Holt."
<g>

Or maybe we could be missionary branches of the cargo cults, and pray for a rain of cargo. We could perform ceremonies designed to help us receive deliveries from UPS or FedEx. We could make cardboard DVD players and put them on the lawn, hoping NetFlix will rain on us.

Religious exemption...
What a world.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/2/2005 6:20:10 AM Central Standard Time,
game-enthusiast@... writes:

Yikes! I wonder how difficult it would be to start a satellite school.
Have you looked into it?




~~~

It has been looked into. You have to have a physical church that is willing
to do it, AND the entity has to be accredited by certain accrediting
agencies that are either too strict (South Central Association of Schools and
Colleges), or are closed certain-kind-of-Christian associations set up specifically
to provide accrediting for these "church-related" schools.

So far, no one with enough money has worked to fight it or change it or open
a church school. And there are umbrella schools where you can "get around"
not being a Christian, if you know the right words to say. So, it's just not
an issue, yet. I think eventually it will be, though. I don't believe
virtual charter schools have arrived in Tennessee, yet.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/2/2005 10:23:33 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

We could make cardboard DVD players and put them on the lawn, hoping NetFlix
will rain on us.



~~~

I like that one.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Johanna San Inocencio

I think all people should have the legal right to homeschool their
children if they choose to do so. The problem with the Tennessee law is
the way it is stated the school has to be accredited by certain
organizations in order to be recognized. The following link gives a bit
more info. I guess the thing that bothers me the most is I feel like I
am taking advantage of a legal loophole that is restricted to someone
who does not choose Christianity.

http://www.tnhomeed.com/49-50-801.html


Johanna
" A man is as free as he chooses to make himself, never an atom freer."
The Raven, Lillith by George MacDonald



SandraDodd@... wrote:

> -=- I wonder how difficult it would be to start a satellite school.
> >Have you looked into it?-=-
>
>
> I've always liked the sound of "The Church of John Holt."
> <g>
>
> Or maybe we could be missionary branches of the cargo cults, and pray
> for a rain of cargo. We could perform ceremonies designed to help us
> receive deliveries from UPS or FedEx. We could make cardboard DVD
> players and put them on the lawn, hoping NetFlix will rain on us.
>
> Religious exemption...
> What a world.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Yahoo! Groups Links*
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/2/2005 11:13:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, SandraDodd@... writes:

>I've always liked the sound of "The Church of John Holt."<g><<<<<<<<

I thought it already existed....maybe just in my own little world. Damn!

I have my green wristband with "WWJD" stamped on it for "What Would Joyce Do"----did y'all not get yours?

I thank Dodd every day that unschooling exists, and I have my little alter for Saint AnneO where I can burn incense and candles----oops---am I the only one?

Must not be, 'cause we're expecting upwards of 700 people at the conference this year. I KNOW I'm not he only one! <G>

Deb already has our legal defense association named: Deb? What was it exactly? <G>

>>>>>Religious exemption...
>What a world.<<<

Yeah---my world! <G>


~Kelly

Deb Lewis

***already has our legal defense association named: What was it exactly?
<G>***

U AssT For IT

Unschoolers Assassination Team: Force (against) Intellectual Terrorism

Our motto is "When the law's against you, we're against the law!"

Deb, accepting applications now...