curbing undesirable behavior
[email protected]
-=-I've tried punishment in the sense
of taking things away (no treats for two days, Gameboy taken away, etc.)
and this does not seem to affect him.-=-
It does affect him, but not in a way that makes things better.
"Treats"? Treats is a dangerous concept anyway.
-=- So I am trying now to simply ignore
it and just tell him "You can not hit" and moving away from him. Yes, he
will follow me, but if it's my attention he's after, hopefully he will see
that hitting is not the way to get it. I suppose it will just take time,
like anything else!-=-
"You cannot hit" isn't good information. Obviously he CAN hit. He's doing
it regularly.
And ignoring him? If he NEEDS attention, it's a need. Withholding attention
from a kid who needs attention is like withholding food from a kid who needs
food, or the bed from a kid who's sleepy.
Something is happening before he hits. That's what I think you should look
at. Maybe it's that something is NOT happening.
Others here might have suggestions of books that would help you, but I think
ignoring him is a really bad thing, and "withholding treats" sounds like
conditioning and that's not the way to go if you want him to understand and
think, rather than to perform behaviors (like a trained animal).
Six isn't too young to talk to him like a person. Are you using set phrases
in a sing-songy voice? Are you reciting rules and policies that he's
learned to tune out instead of speaking to him in the moment as one person to
another?
I would tell him too, truthfully, that there are people in jail and prison
for just hitting another person. There are people who are older who hit
strangers and they get hit back HARD or shot. Hitting is just NOT okay to do,
it's not safe, it's not right.
But if his life is too frustrating for him, try to alleviate his frustration.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of taking things away (no treats for two days, Gameboy taken away, etc.)
and this does not seem to affect him.-=-
It does affect him, but not in a way that makes things better.
"Treats"? Treats is a dangerous concept anyway.
-=- So I am trying now to simply ignore
it and just tell him "You can not hit" and moving away from him. Yes, he
will follow me, but if it's my attention he's after, hopefully he will see
that hitting is not the way to get it. I suppose it will just take time,
like anything else!-=-
"You cannot hit" isn't good information. Obviously he CAN hit. He's doing
it regularly.
And ignoring him? If he NEEDS attention, it's a need. Withholding attention
from a kid who needs attention is like withholding food from a kid who needs
food, or the bed from a kid who's sleepy.
Something is happening before he hits. That's what I think you should look
at. Maybe it's that something is NOT happening.
Others here might have suggestions of books that would help you, but I think
ignoring him is a really bad thing, and "withholding treats" sounds like
conditioning and that's not the way to go if you want him to understand and
think, rather than to perform behaviors (like a trained animal).
Six isn't too young to talk to him like a person. Are you using set phrases
in a sing-songy voice? Are you reciting rules and policies that he's
learned to tune out instead of speaking to him in the moment as one person to
another?
I would tell him too, truthfully, that there are people in jail and prison
for just hitting another person. There are people who are older who hit
strangers and they get hit back HARD or shot. Hitting is just NOT okay to do,
it's not safe, it's not right.
But if his life is too frustrating for him, try to alleviate his frustration.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Jan 15, 2005, at 8:16 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
just try to keep working through on whatever the situation is that is
causing him to hit - just pretending they don't even notice that they
are being pummeled in the meantime.
Example: mom is fixing a sandwich that the child requested and the
child thinks the mom is about to put on the wrong kind of jam. The
child starts screaming and hitting and kicking the mom - "NOOOOO , not
that kind you KNOW I don't want that KIND why do you always put the
wrong kind on......".
I really think that to just stay calm and address the jam issue, in the
face of being screamed at and hit and kicked, is not a good idea. I
think the sandwich and jam become a secondary issue at that point and I
don't think calmly and sweetly responding with, "Oh, you prefer another
kind of jam," is responsive to what is really happening in that
situation. I'm not advocating punishment or anything - just that going
on as if this is business as usual is sending a very very poor piece of
information to the kid. Sandra said, for example, that when people are
older and they lash out like that, they can get hit back, hard, or even
shot. So a mom who pretends it isn't even happening - or ineffectually
says, sweetly, "Honey, I don't like it when you hit me. Now (even
though she is STILL being attacked) what kind of jam would you like?"
is really teaching the kid that hitting and screaming ARE the best ways
to quickly get what he wants.
There are obviously other things going on with kids who are hitting and
screaming at their parents like that. Some kids are very much more
easily frustrated with the usual minor things that happen in life -
like mom pulling the wrong jam out of the refrigerator. And they need a
TON of help to learn to handle frustration. But it truly is NOT helpful
to them for parents to tolerate hitting and screaming at them, either.
Parents with kids who do this can often head it off if they'll take a
LOT of time and make an effort to not add to the frustration of the
kid. ALWAYS ask questions - never assume. "So you want peanut butter
and jelly? What kind of jelly? Lots of it or a little? Do you want your
sandwich cut in half this way or that way?" And so on.
It is hard.
And a parent can only do so much - with other kids and other demands on
them, they can't make life completely frustration-free for their child.
I think parents should stay kind and caring - but be very clear, too,
"Sweetheart, I'm not going to let you hit me or kick me. I REALLY want
to help you out, but first you absolutely must stop hitting and kicking
and then we'll TALK about what's frustrating you so much and we'll find
a solution." Or, sometimes, it helps with littler kids to say, "Do not
hit me - say "I AM FRUSTRATED" instead." Helping them have the exact
words to say when those intense and out of control feelings arise, is
often really effective.
I also don't think ignoring them is a good idea - that comes from the
behaviorist idea of 'extinguishing' a negative behavior by not
responding to it. It is a Skinnerian conditioning technique. In fact, I
think other things should stop and the behavior itself should be the
focus. If the child won't let you hold them - then just standing there
gently waiting might be good. Lecturing isn't good. If you say
something once, don't keep repeating it in different ways. That's just
more frustration and irritation and the child will stop listening
anyway.If they won't stop hitting or kicking you, I'd go behind a
closed door to protect myself. I just think it is a really really bad
idea for parents to let their kids keep on hitting and kicking them.
Most of the work to stop the hitting and screaming is done when the
child is NOT hitting and screaming. Partly it is the parent being more
alert to what kinds of things lead to it - and heading them off and
helping the child anticipate them too. When NOT in a hitting situation,
say, "So, I noticed that when we're getting ready to go out, that's a
time that is really stressful and we often have blow-ups then. I'm
thinking about what we can do to make those times easier. Like, I was
thinking that I could give you more information about when we're going
to be going places and what we're going to be doing. What do you think?
Any other ideas?" "Or maybe we could have some clothes picked out every
day to be those clothes you'll wear when we're going out, so you don't
have to try to pick them out when it is already time to go." And so on.
Also - I talked to my explosive child a lot about what she felt like in
the moments before she exploded and that seemed to really help - what
signs to look for that her anger or frustration level was reaching a
critical point and what to do immediately (like breathing deeply three
times before doing anything else).
Hard stuff.
-pam
> "You cannot hit" isn't good information. Obviously he CAN hit. He'sI wouldn't ignore the hitting though, either. Sometimes I see parents
> doing
> it regularly.
> And ignoring him? If he NEEDS attention, it's a need. Withholding
> attention
> from a kid who needs attention is like withholding food from a kid who
> needs
> food, or the bed from a kid who's sleepy.
just try to keep working through on whatever the situation is that is
causing him to hit - just pretending they don't even notice that they
are being pummeled in the meantime.
Example: mom is fixing a sandwich that the child requested and the
child thinks the mom is about to put on the wrong kind of jam. The
child starts screaming and hitting and kicking the mom - "NOOOOO , not
that kind you KNOW I don't want that KIND why do you always put the
wrong kind on......".
I really think that to just stay calm and address the jam issue, in the
face of being screamed at and hit and kicked, is not a good idea. I
think the sandwich and jam become a secondary issue at that point and I
don't think calmly and sweetly responding with, "Oh, you prefer another
kind of jam," is responsive to what is really happening in that
situation. I'm not advocating punishment or anything - just that going
on as if this is business as usual is sending a very very poor piece of
information to the kid. Sandra said, for example, that when people are
older and they lash out like that, they can get hit back, hard, or even
shot. So a mom who pretends it isn't even happening - or ineffectually
says, sweetly, "Honey, I don't like it when you hit me. Now (even
though she is STILL being attacked) what kind of jam would you like?"
is really teaching the kid that hitting and screaming ARE the best ways
to quickly get what he wants.
There are obviously other things going on with kids who are hitting and
screaming at their parents like that. Some kids are very much more
easily frustrated with the usual minor things that happen in life -
like mom pulling the wrong jam out of the refrigerator. And they need a
TON of help to learn to handle frustration. But it truly is NOT helpful
to them for parents to tolerate hitting and screaming at them, either.
Parents with kids who do this can often head it off if they'll take a
LOT of time and make an effort to not add to the frustration of the
kid. ALWAYS ask questions - never assume. "So you want peanut butter
and jelly? What kind of jelly? Lots of it or a little? Do you want your
sandwich cut in half this way or that way?" And so on.
It is hard.
And a parent can only do so much - with other kids and other demands on
them, they can't make life completely frustration-free for their child.
I think parents should stay kind and caring - but be very clear, too,
"Sweetheart, I'm not going to let you hit me or kick me. I REALLY want
to help you out, but first you absolutely must stop hitting and kicking
and then we'll TALK about what's frustrating you so much and we'll find
a solution." Or, sometimes, it helps with littler kids to say, "Do not
hit me - say "I AM FRUSTRATED" instead." Helping them have the exact
words to say when those intense and out of control feelings arise, is
often really effective.
I also don't think ignoring them is a good idea - that comes from the
behaviorist idea of 'extinguishing' a negative behavior by not
responding to it. It is a Skinnerian conditioning technique. In fact, I
think other things should stop and the behavior itself should be the
focus. If the child won't let you hold them - then just standing there
gently waiting might be good. Lecturing isn't good. If you say
something once, don't keep repeating it in different ways. That's just
more frustration and irritation and the child will stop listening
anyway.If they won't stop hitting or kicking you, I'd go behind a
closed door to protect myself. I just think it is a really really bad
idea for parents to let their kids keep on hitting and kicking them.
Most of the work to stop the hitting and screaming is done when the
child is NOT hitting and screaming. Partly it is the parent being more
alert to what kinds of things lead to it - and heading them off and
helping the child anticipate them too. When NOT in a hitting situation,
say, "So, I noticed that when we're getting ready to go out, that's a
time that is really stressful and we often have blow-ups then. I'm
thinking about what we can do to make those times easier. Like, I was
thinking that I could give you more information about when we're going
to be going places and what we're going to be doing. What do you think?
Any other ideas?" "Or maybe we could have some clothes picked out every
day to be those clothes you'll wear when we're going out, so you don't
have to try to pick them out when it is already time to go." And so on.
Also - I talked to my explosive child a lot about what she felt like in
the moments before she exploded and that seemed to really help - what
signs to look for that her anger or frustration level was reaching a
critical point and what to do immediately (like breathing deeply three
times before doing anything else).
Hard stuff.
-pam
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
could move ahead with a calm-down period and then talking. But yeh, a
growth spurt at 3.5 had ds hitting and hitting, so I would sometimes
take dd into the kitchen and close the gate. Yes, I want to find a
way to deal with the situation without adding more negative emotions,
but not at the expense of getting hit again. Same thing with hitting
another child--it doesn't matter that he doesn't like me picking him
up when he's mad, the hitting has to stop.
--aj
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
> I just think it is a really really badGood point. Most of what I've dealt with has been one outburst, so we
> idea for parents to let their kids keep on hitting and kicking them.
could move ahead with a calm-down period and then talking. But yeh, a
growth spurt at 3.5 had ds hitting and hitting, so I would sometimes
take dd into the kitchen and close the gate. Yes, I want to find a
way to deal with the situation without adding more negative emotions,
but not at the expense of getting hit again. Same thing with hitting
another child--it doesn't matter that he doesn't like me picking him
up when he's mad, the hitting has to stop.
--aj
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/15/2005 9:56:15 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
-=-I really think that to just stay calm and address the jam issue, in the
face of being screamed at and hit and kicked, is not a good idea. I
think the sandwich and jam become a secondary issue at that point and I
don't think calmly and sweetly responding with, "Oh, you prefer another
kind of jam," is responsive to what is really happening in that
situation.-=-
------------------
I agree.
The mom could have let him pick his jam in advance.
The mom could have asked him to help.
If it were me, I would pointedly put down all implements of sandwich making
entirely, so the kid saw that sandwich making had been suspended until yelling
stopped.
-=-Parents with kids who do this can often head it off if they'll take a
LOT of time and make an effort to not add to the frustration of the
kid. ALWAYS ask questions - never assume. "So you want peanut butter
and jelly? What kind of jelly? Lots of it or a little? Do you want your
sandwich cut in half this way or that way?" And so on.-=-
Yes. And REALLY pay attention to the child.
When I've seen the worst such melt-downs myself, the mom was talking to
other moms, or being on the phone, or somehow just pretending to listen to the
kid out of the corner of her awareness without really stopping the other
activity and looking right at her child and being (with all her being, thought,
focus) with him. FIVE SECONDS of real attention can avert a rage.
-=-I think parents should stay kind and caring - but be very clear, too,
"Sweetheart, I'm not going to let you hit me or kick me. I REALLY want
to help you out, but first you absolutely must stop hitting and kicking
and then we'll TALK about what's frustrating you so much and we'll find
a solution." -=-
Too many words.
A frustrated human (even an adult) whose mind is spinning can't hear all
that. It will infuriate him more.
"STOP. Talk. Breathe and talk."
That's my recommendation if someone wants a scripted message.
-=- When NOT in a hitting situation,
say, "So, I noticed that when we're getting ready to go out, that's a
time that is really stressful and we often have blow-ups then. I'm
thinking about what we can do to make those times easier. Like, I was
thinking that I could give you more information about when we're going
to be going places and what we're going to be doing. What do you think?
Any other ideas?" -=-
Maybe the mom could just TRY the things she thinks will work andnot make it
the child's responsibility to help her figure out how to be an attentive and
prepared mom.
-=-"Or maybe we could have some clothes picked out every
day to be those clothes you'll wear when we're going out, so you don't
have to try to pick them out when it is already time to go." And so on.
-=-
A mom having had that thought should act on the thought. If clothes or
finding shoes are an issue, the night before or an hour before, the mom should
say "What are you going to wear? Where is it?" and help the child get the
clothes into a found, available state. If the child doesn't know where his coat
is, the mom probably doesn't either. Until such age as a child doesn't need
the mom's help anymore (even if that's 20 years old), the mom should help and
not blame the kid for not knowing where something is or not knowing what he
wants to wear, etc.
-=Also - I talked to my explosive child a lot about what she felt like in
the moments before she exploded and that seemed to really help - what
signs to look for that her anger or frustration level was reaching a
critical point -=-
That's what I meant by something is happening just before the hitting. I
could see the signs in Kirby. He would tighten up. His face and posture would
get hard, like he was on the alert for the coming last straw. And so I
would try to back him back to a point where he could handle another five or six
frustrations, not just help him maintain his "last straw" status.
Emotional explosions follow emotional build-ups. Parents who habitually
ignore the buildup and then try to figure out how to manage the volcanic
activity might work on being better managers of the peace of their families.
It has been years since Kirby has had any scenes of frustration, but he used
to. We worked to give him tools to use so that he could sense his own
building emotions, and philosophical ideas and principles that helped him see the
value in being calmer and more understanding. It didn't happen all in one
year, but it did happen. (Karate helped too, and that's another standing
recommendation as far as I'm concerned for any child who lashes out physically:
martial arts training in a school that emphasizes character, control, defense
and the history of the form.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
-=-I really think that to just stay calm and address the jam issue, in the
face of being screamed at and hit and kicked, is not a good idea. I
think the sandwich and jam become a secondary issue at that point and I
don't think calmly and sweetly responding with, "Oh, you prefer another
kind of jam," is responsive to what is really happening in that
situation.-=-
------------------
I agree.
The mom could have let him pick his jam in advance.
The mom could have asked him to help.
If it were me, I would pointedly put down all implements of sandwich making
entirely, so the kid saw that sandwich making had been suspended until yelling
stopped.
-=-Parents with kids who do this can often head it off if they'll take a
LOT of time and make an effort to not add to the frustration of the
kid. ALWAYS ask questions - never assume. "So you want peanut butter
and jelly? What kind of jelly? Lots of it or a little? Do you want your
sandwich cut in half this way or that way?" And so on.-=-
Yes. And REALLY pay attention to the child.
When I've seen the worst such melt-downs myself, the mom was talking to
other moms, or being on the phone, or somehow just pretending to listen to the
kid out of the corner of her awareness without really stopping the other
activity and looking right at her child and being (with all her being, thought,
focus) with him. FIVE SECONDS of real attention can avert a rage.
-=-I think parents should stay kind and caring - but be very clear, too,
"Sweetheart, I'm not going to let you hit me or kick me. I REALLY want
to help you out, but first you absolutely must stop hitting and kicking
and then we'll TALK about what's frustrating you so much and we'll find
a solution." -=-
Too many words.
A frustrated human (even an adult) whose mind is spinning can't hear all
that. It will infuriate him more.
"STOP. Talk. Breathe and talk."
That's my recommendation if someone wants a scripted message.
-=- When NOT in a hitting situation,
say, "So, I noticed that when we're getting ready to go out, that's a
time that is really stressful and we often have blow-ups then. I'm
thinking about what we can do to make those times easier. Like, I was
thinking that I could give you more information about when we're going
to be going places and what we're going to be doing. What do you think?
Any other ideas?" -=-
Maybe the mom could just TRY the things she thinks will work andnot make it
the child's responsibility to help her figure out how to be an attentive and
prepared mom.
-=-"Or maybe we could have some clothes picked out every
day to be those clothes you'll wear when we're going out, so you don't
have to try to pick them out when it is already time to go." And so on.
-=-
A mom having had that thought should act on the thought. If clothes or
finding shoes are an issue, the night before or an hour before, the mom should
say "What are you going to wear? Where is it?" and help the child get the
clothes into a found, available state. If the child doesn't know where his coat
is, the mom probably doesn't either. Until such age as a child doesn't need
the mom's help anymore (even if that's 20 years old), the mom should help and
not blame the kid for not knowing where something is or not knowing what he
wants to wear, etc.
-=Also - I talked to my explosive child a lot about what she felt like in
the moments before she exploded and that seemed to really help - what
signs to look for that her anger or frustration level was reaching a
critical point -=-
That's what I meant by something is happening just before the hitting. I
could see the signs in Kirby. He would tighten up. His face and posture would
get hard, like he was on the alert for the coming last straw. And so I
would try to back him back to a point where he could handle another five or six
frustrations, not just help him maintain his "last straw" status.
Emotional explosions follow emotional build-ups. Parents who habitually
ignore the buildup and then try to figure out how to manage the volcanic
activity might work on being better managers of the peace of their families.
It has been years since Kirby has had any scenes of frustration, but he used
to. We worked to give him tools to use so that he could sense his own
building emotions, and philosophical ideas and principles that helped him see the
value in being calmer and more understanding. It didn't happen all in one
year, but it did happen. (Karate helped too, and that's another standing
recommendation as far as I'm concerned for any child who lashes out physically:
martial arts training in a school that emphasizes character, control, defense
and the history of the form.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/15/2005 10:22:42 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
mamaaj2000@... writes:
-=-Same thing with hitting
another child--it doesn't matter that he doesn't like me picking him
up when he's mad, the hitting has to stop.-=-
I have no compunctions about yelling "NO" even to a really little child. If
a neighbor came into the yard and was hitting my kid or my dog or even
kicking my car, I wouldn't even BEGIN to say, "Harry, I can see you're frustrated,
but it's not really okay to hit. Harry, could you stop? Harry, let's talk."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000@... writes:
-=-Same thing with hitting
another child--it doesn't matter that he doesn't like me picking him
up when he's mad, the hitting has to stop.-=-
I have no compunctions about yelling "NO" even to a really little child. If
a neighbor came into the yard and was hitting my kid or my dog or even
kicking my car, I wouldn't even BEGIN to say, "Harry, I can see you're frustrated,
but it's not really okay to hit. Harry, could you stop? Harry, let's talk."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Jan 15, 2005, at 9:32 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
We had a turkey running around at our park day a few weeks ago - yeah,
a turkey. (We do not live in a place where turkeys run around wild.)
It was tame - and kids around 4 to 6 years old were chasing it and
throwing sand right in its face. I didn't know the kids (it wasn't the
kids in our group). The adults who were with those kids were all at a
table - half watching. There was no way that they weren't aware - but
they were ignoring. I stood between the adults and the kids, facing the
kids and said, "Stop NOW!" Very strongly, but not too loud. They
stopped but were just obviously waiting until I turned my back to start
up again. Some of us herded the turkey away from the playground and
eventually one of our group took it over to the nearby animal shelter.
-pam
>How about a turkey? <BEG>
> I have no compunctions about yelling "NO" even to a really little
> child. If
> a neighbor came into the yard and was hitting my kid or my dog or even
> kicking my car, I wouldn't even BEGIN to say, "Harry, I can see you're
> frustrated,
> but it's not really okay to hit. Harry, could you stop? Harry,
> let's talk."
We had a turkey running around at our park day a few weeks ago - yeah,
a turkey. (We do not live in a place where turkeys run around wild.)
It was tame - and kids around 4 to 6 years old were chasing it and
throwing sand right in its face. I didn't know the kids (it wasn't the
kids in our group). The adults who were with those kids were all at a
table - half watching. There was no way that they weren't aware - but
they were ignoring. I stood between the adults and the kids, facing the
kids and said, "Stop NOW!" Very strongly, but not too loud. They
stopped but were just obviously waiting until I turned my back to start
up again. Some of us herded the turkey away from the playground and
eventually one of our group took it over to the nearby animal shelter.
-pam
Shannon Entin
First I'd like to say that I love this list - what a great source of
support and ideas! My responses to various posts below:
this. I feel like there's so much contradictory info when it comes to
parenting! Some say repetition is needed for children to learn, others say
it will just make the child "turn off."
neighbor, and explained that the neighbor would call the police and I would
go to jail. My son thought about that for a moment, but it didn't seem to
make a big impact and certainly didn't stop future hitting incidents.
let him hit me. I make it clear that it's NOT ok to behave this way and I
move away from him to protect myself. By "ignore" I meant "walk away."
when he is calm, he will say "I don't know" or "I can't remember."
But then there are times when I can't. Example: I am nursing the baby and
he is sitting next to me watching TV, everything is fine. Then a commercial
will come on (or the show is over) and it's like he suddenly realizes I am
nursing the baby and not sitting there waiting to execute his next command.
So he'll just growl at me or punch me. Not a tantrum or meltdown, just a
frustrated punch out of the blue. Typically, I will try to put words to his
feelings, acknowledging that he may be bored and why don't we read a book
or play cards or something else I can do while nursing. His response is
usually to ask to do something he *knows* I can't do while nursing. It's
very antagonistic - almost as if he's *looking* for a reason to get mad.
Question: If I try to avert possibly volatile situations and tip-toe around
him, will he learn to handle frustration? Or will he just learn that Mommy
will "make everything ok?" Example: He knows that I know the *right* way
to cut/prepare his food. So when Dad has to make his food, he lashes out
and insists Mommy has to do it. And he often gets angry and hits when dh &
I are talking (presumably because no one is paying attention to him).
Doesn't he need to learn that he can not *always* be the center of
attention? I mean, my husband and I can't hold all our conversations until
he goes to bed in hopes that this will head off an outburst.
~Shannon
support and ideas! My responses to various posts below:
>Six isn't too young to talk to him like a person. Are you using set phrasesNo, but I do repeat myself often. I am also too long-winded, but working on
>in a sing-songy voice?
this. I feel like there's so much contradictory info when it comes to
parenting! Some say repetition is needed for children to learn, others say
it will just make the child "turn off."
> I would tell him too, truthfully, that there are people in jail and prisonI have done this. Asked him what he thought would happen if I hit our
>for just hitting another person.
neighbor, and explained that the neighbor would call the police and I would
go to jail. My son thought about that for a moment, but it didn't seem to
make a big impact and certainly didn't stop future hitting incidents.
>I wouldn't ignore the hitting though, either.I wasn't clear when I said I would "ignore" him. I do not stand there and
let him hit me. I make it clear that it's NOT ok to behave this way and I
move away from him to protect myself. By "ignore" I meant "walk away."
>Also - I talked to my explosive child a lot about what she felt like inMy son doesn't (can't?) talk about his feelings. If I bring the issues up
>the moments before she exploded and that seemed to really help
when he is calm, he will say "I don't know" or "I can't remember."
>Some kids are very much moreThis is my challenge. Many times I can recognize what will set him off.
>easily frustrated with the usual minor things that happen in life -
>like mom pulling the wrong jam out of the refrigerator.
>Most of the work to stop the hitting and screaming is done when the
>child is NOT hitting and screaming. Partly it is the parent being more
>alert to what kinds of things lead to it - and heading them off and
>helping the child anticipate them too.
But then there are times when I can't. Example: I am nursing the baby and
he is sitting next to me watching TV, everything is fine. Then a commercial
will come on (or the show is over) and it's like he suddenly realizes I am
nursing the baby and not sitting there waiting to execute his next command.
So he'll just growl at me or punch me. Not a tantrum or meltdown, just a
frustrated punch out of the blue. Typically, I will try to put words to his
feelings, acknowledging that he may be bored and why don't we read a book
or play cards or something else I can do while nursing. His response is
usually to ask to do something he *knows* I can't do while nursing. It's
very antagonistic - almost as if he's *looking* for a reason to get mad.
Question: If I try to avert possibly volatile situations and tip-toe around
him, will he learn to handle frustration? Or will he just learn that Mommy
will "make everything ok?" Example: He knows that I know the *right* way
to cut/prepare his food. So when Dad has to make his food, he lashes out
and insists Mommy has to do it. And he often gets angry and hits when dh &
I are talking (presumably because no one is paying attention to him).
Doesn't he need to learn that he can not *always* be the center of
attention? I mean, my husband and I can't hold all our conversations until
he goes to bed in hopes that this will head off an outburst.
~Shannon
[email protected]
Hi Shannon- I just wanted to offer some possible advice. I missed the post
that said how old your son is, but I'm guessing he's around 3 1/2 by his
behavior. His behavior is fairly developmentally correct, while it may seem
extreme. But there is still a chance that this could be part of his temperament and
a book like The Explosive Child offers an excellent method for helping
children cope with frustration, and finding collaborative solutions. Because your
son is young and doesn't have the language he needs to tell you what is wrong,
your skills of intuition and empathy are going to be critical. Then you may
need to provide your son with the language, using some trial and error. For
example, with the nursing and watching TV scenario. You correctly figured out
that he was choosing an activity that you couldn't possibly do while nursing.
From your perspective, this is antagonistic. From his, he's just testing you
to see if his needs are as important to you as the baby's. You could start by
saying to him, "You must feel like Baby gets a lot of Mommie's attention
because he's nursing. I bet you wish you could have Mommy all to yourself again."
First empathize- this will take practice and he may not get it right away.
Then, after helping him name his feelings, find a solution. It might require
putting the baby down for 5-10 minutes, if he's not shrieking, or promising to
do something just with your son, say during the babies nap. "Hey babies sure
take a lot of time and work, maybe you can help me soothe him while he nurses
himself to sleep- then we can do something together." Yes- you can keep
repeating the Don't hit mantra, but most likely your son already knows its not OK
to hit, he just doesn't have the other tools to resapond to his frustration.
So instead, he's frustrated AND convinced that he's a bad, unlovable boy
because he's hitting. Try also, The Challenging Child, by Stanley Greenspan, which
advocates"floor time" with each of your children. But really- The Explosive
Child, by Dr. Ross Green is the best. Wow that was long- hope it helps.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that said how old your son is, but I'm guessing he's around 3 1/2 by his
behavior. His behavior is fairly developmentally correct, while it may seem
extreme. But there is still a chance that this could be part of his temperament and
a book like The Explosive Child offers an excellent method for helping
children cope with frustration, and finding collaborative solutions. Because your
son is young and doesn't have the language he needs to tell you what is wrong,
your skills of intuition and empathy are going to be critical. Then you may
need to provide your son with the language, using some trial and error. For
example, with the nursing and watching TV scenario. You correctly figured out
that he was choosing an activity that you couldn't possibly do while nursing.
From your perspective, this is antagonistic. From his, he's just testing you
to see if his needs are as important to you as the baby's. You could start by
saying to him, "You must feel like Baby gets a lot of Mommie's attention
because he's nursing. I bet you wish you could have Mommy all to yourself again."
First empathize- this will take practice and he may not get it right away.
Then, after helping him name his feelings, find a solution. It might require
putting the baby down for 5-10 minutes, if he's not shrieking, or promising to
do something just with your son, say during the babies nap. "Hey babies sure
take a lot of time and work, maybe you can help me soothe him while he nurses
himself to sleep- then we can do something together." Yes- you can keep
repeating the Don't hit mantra, but most likely your son already knows its not OK
to hit, he just doesn't have the other tools to resapond to his frustration.
So instead, he's frustrated AND convinced that he's a bad, unlovable boy
because he's hitting. Try also, The Challenging Child, by Stanley Greenspan, which
advocates"floor time" with each of your children. But really- The Explosive
Child, by Dr. Ross Green is the best. Wow that was long- hope it helps.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Jan 16, 2005, at 7:37 AM, Shannon Entin wrote:
kids have gotten older - NOT to tell them things they already know as
if I don't think they remember. First, it is annoying and I don't want
my kids to think of me as annoying. Second, it isn't useful information
if they KNOW it already, so why say it? Mostly, though, it is because I
think it undermines their own sense of responsibility. I've seen kids
doing something - something I KNOW they know is not appropriate. They
keep watching their parent, waiting to see if the parent will say
anything, as if it is the parent saying something that makes it okay or
not okay. I've heard kids say, "But you didn't tell me not to," as if
that made something okay for them to do EVEN though they knew,
themselves, that it wasn't.
I try really hard to offer information rather than tell them what to
do, too. Remember to think about what THEY are thinking inside their
own head in response to what you're saying.
What we WISH - what parents often imagine the kids are thinking in
response to: "Pick up your towel and hang it up, please," is "Oh yes, I
should pick up this towel right now and hang it up nicely because then
it'll be nice and dry and clean next time I want to use it and my mom
won't have so much laundry to do and the house will look neater and it
is a good habit to put things away right away, not leave them for
later, because we all know how later sometimes never comes and I'm so
glad my mom reminded me to put this towel away." <G>
Reality:
"Pick up that towel and hang it up." ("You don't have to order me
around like that.") Coercion always feels bad - always creates some
amount of resistance.
"The towel is wet and will make the carpet wet and it'll get moldy."
("How many times have you told me that, do you think I'm stupid or
what? And I really don't think that little bit of wetness is going to
make the carpet moldy anyway, so you're either not very smart or you're
exaggerating.")
"Pick the towel up NOW, please." ("Sheesh, can't it wait one minute?
You're so impatient. Can't you see I'm in the middle of something?
Don't you trust me to come back and do it in a second?" "Don't you
think what I'm doing now is more important than picking up a stupid
towel?")
"Pick up the towel and hang it up so it'll be nice and dry next time
you want it. PIcking things up when we first drop them is a lot easier
than having to around clean up everything later. Isn't it nicer when
the house is neat and orderly. Putting things away means they're there
when you need them later." (How many TIMES do you have to say these
things to me? Do you think I can't hear or what?" "Blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah....")
None of those are the kinds of things we want our kids to be thinking
in response to what we say to them.
So - if our kid keeps dropping wet towels on the carpet, what do we do?
What would you say to another adult who was walking away leaving their
wet towel on the carpet?
Possibly, lightly and casually, remind them as they walk away? "Don't
forget your towel." Or - even more likely - just pick it up - maybe
hand it to them and say, "Oh, here is your towel." ("Whoops - I almost
forgot it.")
Or - maybe a questioning tone - "Do you want to take your towel?" ("Oh
- yeah, thanks.")
OFTEN - if the kid is busy, "I'll hang up your towel for you."
("Thanks.") Took some practice to say that without sounding annoyed -
just helpful.
A good exercise to get better at this stuff is to try to say just one
word. Yep - ONE word. In a nice tone.
"Towel." (Huh? Towel? What? Oh yeah - she means I should pick up my
towel and hang it up.")
I really suggest trying the one word approach. It can be a real
eye-opener and change the atmosphere of a home a LOT.
-pam
> No, but I do repeat myself often. I am also too long-winded, butThat's so interesting! I have tried - with increasing success as the
> working on
> this. I feel like there's so much contradictory info when it comes to
> parenting! Some say repetition is needed for children to learn, others
> say
> it will just make the child "turn off."
kids have gotten older - NOT to tell them things they already know as
if I don't think they remember. First, it is annoying and I don't want
my kids to think of me as annoying. Second, it isn't useful information
if they KNOW it already, so why say it? Mostly, though, it is because I
think it undermines their own sense of responsibility. I've seen kids
doing something - something I KNOW they know is not appropriate. They
keep watching their parent, waiting to see if the parent will say
anything, as if it is the parent saying something that makes it okay or
not okay. I've heard kids say, "But you didn't tell me not to," as if
that made something okay for them to do EVEN though they knew,
themselves, that it wasn't.
I try really hard to offer information rather than tell them what to
do, too. Remember to think about what THEY are thinking inside their
own head in response to what you're saying.
What we WISH - what parents often imagine the kids are thinking in
response to: "Pick up your towel and hang it up, please," is "Oh yes, I
should pick up this towel right now and hang it up nicely because then
it'll be nice and dry and clean next time I want to use it and my mom
won't have so much laundry to do and the house will look neater and it
is a good habit to put things away right away, not leave them for
later, because we all know how later sometimes never comes and I'm so
glad my mom reminded me to put this towel away." <G>
Reality:
"Pick up that towel and hang it up." ("You don't have to order me
around like that.") Coercion always feels bad - always creates some
amount of resistance.
"The towel is wet and will make the carpet wet and it'll get moldy."
("How many times have you told me that, do you think I'm stupid or
what? And I really don't think that little bit of wetness is going to
make the carpet moldy anyway, so you're either not very smart or you're
exaggerating.")
"Pick the towel up NOW, please." ("Sheesh, can't it wait one minute?
You're so impatient. Can't you see I'm in the middle of something?
Don't you trust me to come back and do it in a second?" "Don't you
think what I'm doing now is more important than picking up a stupid
towel?")
"Pick up the towel and hang it up so it'll be nice and dry next time
you want it. PIcking things up when we first drop them is a lot easier
than having to around clean up everything later. Isn't it nicer when
the house is neat and orderly. Putting things away means they're there
when you need them later." (How many TIMES do you have to say these
things to me? Do you think I can't hear or what?" "Blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah....")
None of those are the kinds of things we want our kids to be thinking
in response to what we say to them.
So - if our kid keeps dropping wet towels on the carpet, what do we do?
What would you say to another adult who was walking away leaving their
wet towel on the carpet?
Possibly, lightly and casually, remind them as they walk away? "Don't
forget your towel." Or - even more likely - just pick it up - maybe
hand it to them and say, "Oh, here is your towel." ("Whoops - I almost
forgot it.")
Or - maybe a questioning tone - "Do you want to take your towel?" ("Oh
- yeah, thanks.")
OFTEN - if the kid is busy, "I'll hang up your towel for you."
("Thanks.") Took some practice to say that without sounding annoyed -
just helpful.
A good exercise to get better at this stuff is to try to say just one
word. Yep - ONE word. In a nice tone.
"Towel." (Huh? Towel? What? Oh yeah - she means I should pick up my
towel and hang it up.")
I really suggest trying the one word approach. It can be a real
eye-opener and change the atmosphere of a home a LOT.
-pam
[email protected]
i agree that it's not ok to hit someone simply out of frustration.
but i am not sure about saying that it's NEVER ok to hit. if some kid
hits my daughter, i don't want her to run to me and point them out, i
want her to hit them back. maybe first give them the benefit of
yelling 'hey, don't hit me' in case it was an accident and they might
make some gesture of apology..
--inna
but i am not sure about saying that it's NEVER ok to hit. if some kid
hits my daughter, i don't want her to run to me and point them out, i
want her to hit them back. maybe first give them the benefit of
yelling 'hey, don't hit me' in case it was an accident and they might
make some gesture of apology..
--inna
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> I would tell him too, truthfully, that there are people in jail and
prison
> for just hitting another person. There are people who are older
who hit
> strangers and they get hit back HARD or shot. Hitting is just NOT
okay to do,
> it's not safe, it's not right.