a difficult problem
[email protected]
A reader has a problem I would like to present anonymously. Or rather let's
say it's Irene (which is my sister's name, but this is not my sister, and I
haven't noticed another Irene on the list so if there's an Irene reading, sorry
to have borrowed a too-familiar name).
So "Irene" writes the following. Can any of you with even the slightest
idea or suggestion please post it here? It's nearly Christmas and a little peace
and encouragement can go a long way.
Thanks!
Sandra
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Hi. . . I have 3 kids ages 12, 10, and 9. Girl, boy, girl, is their
birthorder. I have been "homeschooling" for 3 years now and just started unschooling
about 4 months ago, (which I love and so do they, its simply wonderful).
My problem lies not with my kids or myself but with my husband. To be frank
he is down right abusive, verbally, not physically. He hates me homeschooling.
I mean he loathes me homeschooling. If the kids dont answer his questions
right or if they do something silly by accident, he calls them "homeschools". He
tells me and them that they wont make it later in life, that they will be
flipping burgers and asking want fries with that? He says you just wait and see
they wont make anything of themselves and I am not going to support them the
rest of their lives!! I can only intervene so much, I am only one person. I need
two more people sheltering the kids from him. They have learned to ignore it
and to be honest they have lost all respect for him. I know though that it
still hurts them to hear their dad think so poorly of them. It is affecting my
oldest daughters self esteem. They wont do what he asks. Honestly they just
fllat out ignore him because they know it doesnt matter how they do the job, its
not going to be good enough and then he will just make fun of them.
I have contemplated leaving him on several occasions but I am terrified that
if I did I would have a court order telling me I have to put them back in
school. Its just not worth the risk to me, and I know my husband, he is very
vendictive and he would try and take them from me. I dont want my kids going
through a battle like that. So I stay and fight, and fight, and fight.....its
becoming really difficult for me to continue. I have been battling him since we
first got married 11 years ago. We married young because we had our first child
out of wedlock and I was determined to marry him no matter the consequences.
I was stuborn, controling and far to young to
make such a big decision. I was 18 and he was 17, his mother had to sign
because he was not legal yet.
Anyway, no matter the struggle I will fight him for my kids who cant fight
him themselves. I just dont know how to handle the situation anymore. It is
getting worse, he doesnt hold his tongue at all anymore. I am at a loss. I want
to leave but I am terrified of loosing my kids. Since everything he does is
strickly verbal then there are no bruses, I cant prove it. I could video tape
him but it would have to be with his knowledge or the evidence would be
unuseable. If I ever did get permission to videotape him, he would put on an act that
no judge would fight. I feel trapped and really need some help. . . . .
Thank you for reading this and I look forward to hearing from you...
say it's Irene (which is my sister's name, but this is not my sister, and I
haven't noticed another Irene on the list so if there's an Irene reading, sorry
to have borrowed a too-familiar name).
So "Irene" writes the following. Can any of you with even the slightest
idea or suggestion please post it here? It's nearly Christmas and a little peace
and encouragement can go a long way.
Thanks!
Sandra
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Hi. . . I have 3 kids ages 12, 10, and 9. Girl, boy, girl, is their
birthorder. I have been "homeschooling" for 3 years now and just started unschooling
about 4 months ago, (which I love and so do they, its simply wonderful).
My problem lies not with my kids or myself but with my husband. To be frank
he is down right abusive, verbally, not physically. He hates me homeschooling.
I mean he loathes me homeschooling. If the kids dont answer his questions
right or if they do something silly by accident, he calls them "homeschools". He
tells me and them that they wont make it later in life, that they will be
flipping burgers and asking want fries with that? He says you just wait and see
they wont make anything of themselves and I am not going to support them the
rest of their lives!! I can only intervene so much, I am only one person. I need
two more people sheltering the kids from him. They have learned to ignore it
and to be honest they have lost all respect for him. I know though that it
still hurts them to hear their dad think so poorly of them. It is affecting my
oldest daughters self esteem. They wont do what he asks. Honestly they just
fllat out ignore him because they know it doesnt matter how they do the job, its
not going to be good enough and then he will just make fun of them.
I have contemplated leaving him on several occasions but I am terrified that
if I did I would have a court order telling me I have to put them back in
school. Its just not worth the risk to me, and I know my husband, he is very
vendictive and he would try and take them from me. I dont want my kids going
through a battle like that. So I stay and fight, and fight, and fight.....its
becoming really difficult for me to continue. I have been battling him since we
first got married 11 years ago. We married young because we had our first child
out of wedlock and I was determined to marry him no matter the consequences.
I was stuborn, controling and far to young to
make such a big decision. I was 18 and he was 17, his mother had to sign
because he was not legal yet.
Anyway, no matter the struggle I will fight him for my kids who cant fight
him themselves. I just dont know how to handle the situation anymore. It is
getting worse, he doesnt hold his tongue at all anymore. I am at a loss. I want
to leave but I am terrified of loosing my kids. Since everything he does is
strickly verbal then there are no bruses, I cant prove it. I could video tape
him but it would have to be with his knowledge or the evidence would be
unuseable. If I ever did get permission to videotape him, he would put on an act that
no judge would fight. I feel trapped and really need some help. . . . .
Thank you for reading this and I look forward to hearing from you...
Elizabeth Hill
** My problem lies not with my kids or myself but with my husband. To be
frank
he is down right abusive, verbally, not physically. He hates me
homeschooling.
I mean he loathes me homeschooling. If the kids dont answer his questions
right or if they do something silly by accident, he calls them
"homeschools".**
Was he ever in favor of homeschooling? How did this happen without his
agreement?
I would really want to know whether this is the only "issue" that he is
abusive about, or whether he is abusive about many things, such as
housework, food choices, "attitude", etc.
Because distress about one issue might be resolvable, but if he is a
totally warped person, then calm discussion or counseling sessions
aren't likely to be enough to fix anything.
The first thing that came to mind is that the father is spewing out a
lot of unhappiness. Presumably he learned to feel terrible about
himself in school. He may believe that he is an undeserving person
because of his own poor school performance. (Wild guessing.)
** I have contemplated leaving him on several occasions but I am
terrified that
if I did I would have a court order telling me I have to put them back in
school.**
"Terrified" is a pretty strong word. Maybe a public school ISP would be
a workable compromise in a divorce situation.
It's hard for me to understand how anyone who is very vindicitive can be
a positive role model for kids.
My 4 cents.
Betsy
frank
he is down right abusive, verbally, not physically. He hates me
homeschooling.
I mean he loathes me homeschooling. If the kids dont answer his questions
right or if they do something silly by accident, he calls them
"homeschools".**
Was he ever in favor of homeschooling? How did this happen without his
agreement?
I would really want to know whether this is the only "issue" that he is
abusive about, or whether he is abusive about many things, such as
housework, food choices, "attitude", etc.
Because distress about one issue might be resolvable, but if he is a
totally warped person, then calm discussion or counseling sessions
aren't likely to be enough to fix anything.
The first thing that came to mind is that the father is spewing out a
lot of unhappiness. Presumably he learned to feel terrible about
himself in school. He may believe that he is an undeserving person
because of his own poor school performance. (Wild guessing.)
** I have contemplated leaving him on several occasions but I am
terrified that
if I did I would have a court order telling me I have to put them back in
school.**
"Terrified" is a pretty strong word. Maybe a public school ISP would be
a workable compromise in a divorce situation.
It's hard for me to understand how anyone who is very vindicitive can be
a positive role model for kids.
My 4 cents.
Betsy
Lars Hedbor
Let's assume that Irene's right, and her husband would seek to force her
kids to go to a public school. Let's even assume that he would succeed in
that pursuit.
I don't know a great deal about divorce law, but it seems likely to me that
Irene will have little difficulty in putting together a case for custody.
In speaking with a lawyer, she might even discover a court that's friendly
to homeschoolers - not terribly likely, I realize, but also not impossible.
Too, if she can demonstrate that her kids are progressing with the
educational exuberance typical of unschoolers, she should have little
trouble convincing a judge to vacate any potential order requiring her kids
to attend school.
So then, the question breaks down to a relatively simple one: will the kids
suffer more harm from being in an environment where one of their parents is
highly abusive of their learning, or from spending a short time in public
schools while the legal difficulties are ironed out?
Some home- and un-schoolers I know spend a semester or two in public schools
just to gain the perspective of seeing what it's like - could Irene approach
it from that angle?
Another train of thought worth chasing down is whether or not this marriage
can be saved, and whether Irene's husband could perhaps be persuaded to be
more respectful of his children, never mind their educational choices. Has
she tried to pursue marital counseling with him?
Again, it's worth weighing whether the damage done by an abusive father is
outweighed by the damage done by the lack of a father in the picture.
Neither is a good situation, but one may be worse than the other.
I certainly feel for Irene here - my wife and I were married at 19, and were
parents before we turned 20. We've had to work very hard at times on our
relationship, but it's been very well worthwhile, in the long run. I don't
think that things ever got as bad for us as they have for Irene, but there
were certainly some pretty rough patches.
So, I guess my suggestions would break down to:
1. Irene should contact a marital counselor and see what ideas (s)he may
have for her for trying to salvage the relationship with her husband, or at
least get him to stop being abusive to the kids.
2. She should contact a divorce lawyer and get a clear read on the legal
potentials in her situation, and not just assume the doomsday scenario she's
laid out will inevitably come to pass.
Too, I certainly wish her the very best as she tries to navigate this very
difficult challenge. Unschooling can be tough enough to manage with the
authorities, friends and neighbors' snarky comments, but I cannot imagine my
wife being able to do it with my kids if I weren't on board with it.
Best of wishes, "Irene."
- Lars D. H. Hedbor
Oregon City, Oregon
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 3:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] a difficult problem
A reader has a problem I would like to present anonymously. Or rather let's
say it's Irene (which is my sister's name, but this is not my sister, and I
haven't noticed another Irene on the list so if there's an Irene reading,
sorry
to have borrowed a too-familiar name).
So "Irene" writes the following. Can any of you with even the slightest
idea or suggestion please post it here? It's nearly Christmas and a little
peace and encouragement can go a long way.
Thanks!
Sandra
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
--
Hi. . . I have 3 kids ages 12, 10, and 9. Girl, boy, girl, is their
birthorder. I have been "homeschooling" for 3 years now and just started
unschooling about 4 months ago, (which I love and so do they, its simply
wonderful).
My problem lies not with my kids or myself but with my husband. To be frank
he is down right abusive, verbally, not physically. He hates me
homeschooling.
I mean he loathes me homeschooling. If the kids dont answer his questions
right or if they do something silly by accident, he calls them
"homeschools". He tells me and them that they wont make it later in life,
that they will be flipping burgers and asking want fries with that? He says
you just wait and see they wont make anything of themselves and I am not
going to support them the rest of their lives!! I can only intervene so
much, I am only one person. I need two more people sheltering the kids from
him. They have learned to ignore it and to be honest they have lost all
respect for him. I know though that it still hurts them to hear their dad
think so poorly of them. It is affecting my oldest daughters self esteem.
They wont do what he asks. Honestly they just fllat out ignore him because
they know it doesnt matter how they do the job, its not going to be good
enough and then he will just make fun of them.
I have contemplated leaving him on several occasions but I am terrified that
if I did I would have a court order telling me I have to put them back in
school. Its just not worth the risk to me, and I know my husband, he is
very vendictive and he would try and take them from me. I dont want my kids
going through a battle like that. So I stay and fight, and fight, and
fight.....its becoming really difficult for me to continue. I have been
battling him since we first got married 11 years ago. We married young
because we had our first child out of wedlock and I was determined to marry
him no matter the consequences.
I was stuborn, controling and far to young to make such a big decision. I
was 18 and he was 17, his mother had to sign
because he was not legal yet.
Anyway, no matter the struggle I will fight him for my kids who cant fight
him themselves. I just dont know how to handle the situation anymore. It is
getting worse, he doesnt hold his tongue at all anymore. I am at a loss. I
want to leave but I am terrified of loosing my kids. Since everything he
does is strickly verbal then there are no bruses, I cant prove it. I could
video tape him but it would have to be with his knowledge or the evidence
would be unuseable. If I ever did get permission to videotape him, he would
put on an act that no judge would fight. I feel trapped and really need some
help. . . . .
Thank you for reading this and I look forward to hearing from you...
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kids to go to a public school. Let's even assume that he would succeed in
that pursuit.
I don't know a great deal about divorce law, but it seems likely to me that
Irene will have little difficulty in putting together a case for custody.
In speaking with a lawyer, she might even discover a court that's friendly
to homeschoolers - not terribly likely, I realize, but also not impossible.
Too, if she can demonstrate that her kids are progressing with the
educational exuberance typical of unschoolers, she should have little
trouble convincing a judge to vacate any potential order requiring her kids
to attend school.
So then, the question breaks down to a relatively simple one: will the kids
suffer more harm from being in an environment where one of their parents is
highly abusive of their learning, or from spending a short time in public
schools while the legal difficulties are ironed out?
Some home- and un-schoolers I know spend a semester or two in public schools
just to gain the perspective of seeing what it's like - could Irene approach
it from that angle?
Another train of thought worth chasing down is whether or not this marriage
can be saved, and whether Irene's husband could perhaps be persuaded to be
more respectful of his children, never mind their educational choices. Has
she tried to pursue marital counseling with him?
Again, it's worth weighing whether the damage done by an abusive father is
outweighed by the damage done by the lack of a father in the picture.
Neither is a good situation, but one may be worse than the other.
I certainly feel for Irene here - my wife and I were married at 19, and were
parents before we turned 20. We've had to work very hard at times on our
relationship, but it's been very well worthwhile, in the long run. I don't
think that things ever got as bad for us as they have for Irene, but there
were certainly some pretty rough patches.
So, I guess my suggestions would break down to:
1. Irene should contact a marital counselor and see what ideas (s)he may
have for her for trying to salvage the relationship with her husband, or at
least get him to stop being abusive to the kids.
2. She should contact a divorce lawyer and get a clear read on the legal
potentials in her situation, and not just assume the doomsday scenario she's
laid out will inevitably come to pass.
Too, I certainly wish her the very best as she tries to navigate this very
difficult challenge. Unschooling can be tough enough to manage with the
authorities, friends and neighbors' snarky comments, but I cannot imagine my
wife being able to do it with my kids if I weren't on board with it.
Best of wishes, "Irene."
- Lars D. H. Hedbor
Oregon City, Oregon
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 3:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] a difficult problem
A reader has a problem I would like to present anonymously. Or rather let's
say it's Irene (which is my sister's name, but this is not my sister, and I
haven't noticed another Irene on the list so if there's an Irene reading,
sorry
to have borrowed a too-familiar name).
So "Irene" writes the following. Can any of you with even the slightest
idea or suggestion please post it here? It's nearly Christmas and a little
peace and encouragement can go a long way.
Thanks!
Sandra
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
--
Hi. . . I have 3 kids ages 12, 10, and 9. Girl, boy, girl, is their
birthorder. I have been "homeschooling" for 3 years now and just started
unschooling about 4 months ago, (which I love and so do they, its simply
wonderful).
My problem lies not with my kids or myself but with my husband. To be frank
he is down right abusive, verbally, not physically. He hates me
homeschooling.
I mean he loathes me homeschooling. If the kids dont answer his questions
right or if they do something silly by accident, he calls them
"homeschools". He tells me and them that they wont make it later in life,
that they will be flipping burgers and asking want fries with that? He says
you just wait and see they wont make anything of themselves and I am not
going to support them the rest of their lives!! I can only intervene so
much, I am only one person. I need two more people sheltering the kids from
him. They have learned to ignore it and to be honest they have lost all
respect for him. I know though that it still hurts them to hear their dad
think so poorly of them. It is affecting my oldest daughters self esteem.
They wont do what he asks. Honestly they just fllat out ignore him because
they know it doesnt matter how they do the job, its not going to be good
enough and then he will just make fun of them.
I have contemplated leaving him on several occasions but I am terrified that
if I did I would have a court order telling me I have to put them back in
school. Its just not worth the risk to me, and I know my husband, he is
very vendictive and he would try and take them from me. I dont want my kids
going through a battle like that. So I stay and fight, and fight, and
fight.....its becoming really difficult for me to continue. I have been
battling him since we first got married 11 years ago. We married young
because we had our first child out of wedlock and I was determined to marry
him no matter the consequences.
I was stuborn, controling and far to young to make such a big decision. I
was 18 and he was 17, his mother had to sign
because he was not legal yet.
Anyway, no matter the struggle I will fight him for my kids who cant fight
him themselves. I just dont know how to handle the situation anymore. It is
getting worse, he doesnt hold his tongue at all anymore. I am at a loss. I
want to leave but I am terrified of loosing my kids. Since everything he
does is strickly verbal then there are no bruses, I cant prove it. I could
video tape him but it would have to be with his knowledge or the evidence
would be unuseable. If I ever did get permission to videotape him, he would
put on an act that no judge would fight. I feel trapped and really need some
help. . . . .
Thank you for reading this and I look forward to hearing from you...
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make
a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/0xXolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
Dawn Adams
Irene writes:
Thank you for reading this and I look forward to hearing from you...
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thank you for reading this and I look forward to hearing from you...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Could you talk to a lawyer about what your options might be regarding leaving him and how homeschooling would fit into it? Meanwhile, maybe start recording incidents or outbursts of his in a dated journal for future use.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sheree
Sandra (and Irene),
Not knowing any more that what is posted here, I would offer a
couple of suggestions:
1. I suspect Dad might be suffering from depression. Men usually
exhibit anger and general meaness when they are depressed. I would
get him a complete physical, call his doctor on the sly, and beg the
doctor for some Welbutan (which would also help him quit smoking if
he smokes). Just drug the problem. (I do not generally support
drugging people, but this imo deserves some consideration.)
2. Mom and the kids need empowerment classes, if available in her
area. Most domestic violence shelters offer these types of
workshops. Many of them offer kids play time while mom is in group.
3. Mom and the kids might benefit from Co-dependecy workshops. Is
Dad an alcoholic? Was his Dad an alcoholic? Maybe Al-Anon is
offered in her area? Even if he is not an alcoholic, co-dependency
can still be an issue here.
Sheree
Not knowing any more that what is posted here, I would offer a
couple of suggestions:
1. I suspect Dad might be suffering from depression. Men usually
exhibit anger and general meaness when they are depressed. I would
get him a complete physical, call his doctor on the sly, and beg the
doctor for some Welbutan (which would also help him quit smoking if
he smokes). Just drug the problem. (I do not generally support
drugging people, but this imo deserves some consideration.)
2. Mom and the kids need empowerment classes, if available in her
area. Most domestic violence shelters offer these types of
workshops. Many of them offer kids play time while mom is in group.
3. Mom and the kids might benefit from Co-dependecy workshops. Is
Dad an alcoholic? Was his Dad an alcoholic? Maybe Al-Anon is
offered in her area? Even if he is not an alcoholic, co-dependency
can still be an issue here.
Sheree
Elizabeth Hill
**My problem lies not with my kids or myself but with my husband. To be
frank he is down right abusive, verbally, not physically. He hates me
homeschooling. I mean he loathes me homeschooling.**
Here's a simple idea. Since it is currently the middle of the "school
year", how about asking him to try refrain from saying anything bad
about homeschooling (in front of the kids) until the school year is up?
You might have to agree to listen to his criticisms privately AND agree
that in June you will assess how well the children are doing and
open-mindedly reconsider whether homeschooling is "working" for your
family. The idea is to get him to support you this year in exchange
for you involving him in the decision-making next year. You get the
immediate benefit, and the repayment is pretty far off in the future.
I think that IF you can get him to pretend to be supportive for the next
six months, the habit of criticism of homeschooling could be permanently
broken.
Betsy
PS There is some interesting research in education that suggests that
students "live down" or "live up" to their teacher's expectations.
Usually homeschooling parents are more impressed by their own kids that
teachers are, which is a plus. (Kids can't always show off all of their
talents in school.) A homeschooling dad who expects his own kids to be
stupid could be pretty harmful.
frank he is down right abusive, verbally, not physically. He hates me
homeschooling. I mean he loathes me homeschooling.**
Here's a simple idea. Since it is currently the middle of the "school
year", how about asking him to try refrain from saying anything bad
about homeschooling (in front of the kids) until the school year is up?
You might have to agree to listen to his criticisms privately AND agree
that in June you will assess how well the children are doing and
open-mindedly reconsider whether homeschooling is "working" for your
family. The idea is to get him to support you this year in exchange
for you involving him in the decision-making next year. You get the
immediate benefit, and the repayment is pretty far off in the future.
I think that IF you can get him to pretend to be supportive for the next
six months, the habit of criticism of homeschooling could be permanently
broken.
Betsy
PS There is some interesting research in education that suggests that
students "live down" or "live up" to their teacher's expectations.
Usually homeschooling parents are more impressed by their own kids that
teachers are, which is a plus. (Kids can't always show off all of their
talents in school.) A homeschooling dad who expects his own kids to be
stupid could be pretty harmful.
Sandra Dodd
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Hill
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
-------
That's a good idea.
But in any case, I would try to move toward more cooperative than
resistent. What doesn't bend will break, and a divorce on top of the
other problems does NOT sound productive for kids.
I liked the idea of appealing to the doctor, making an appointment
(if the husband will go for that) for a checkup but with the doctor
knowing in advance the wife is concerned about depression.
The reassuring ideas about counsellors and sympathetic courts sounds
like total fantasy to me. The odds that a counsellor would support
homeschooling are miniscule. The first thing most professionals
would say would be "put the kids in school," because it has LONG been
assumed that having kids at home is stressful, and add to that the
new assumption that homeschooling is very hard work, and there's no
sense appealing to professionals.
If the husband will agree to backing off, that's great.
I liked the al-Anon suggestion, too. If the mom or mom and kids
could get help from a 12 step program, then dad's anger and badness
will have a whole new perspective and less power, and maybe more
sympathy from the family. You don't have to hang on to a dragon's
tail and let it fling you all over the place. You can just see it
flailing but be unharmed. It's possible to get to that place.
When people call me for homeschooling information, I ask if they
have hostile ex spouse, but a hostile CURRENT spouse is as great a
problem. Unless both parents agree, homeschooling will be stress.
Depending why the kids are out, it might or might not be worth them
going back to school so that the recalcitrant parent remembers or
realizes how bad school can be for them and appreciates the
homeschooling.
Both school and homeschooling will be there later. Neither decision
is irreversible.
Sandra
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
>Since it is currently the middle of the "school
> year", how about asking him to try refrain from saying anything badup?
> about homeschooling (in front of the kids) until the school year is
-------
That's a good idea.
But in any case, I would try to move toward more cooperative than
resistent. What doesn't bend will break, and a divorce on top of the
other problems does NOT sound productive for kids.
I liked the idea of appealing to the doctor, making an appointment
(if the husband will go for that) for a checkup but with the doctor
knowing in advance the wife is concerned about depression.
The reassuring ideas about counsellors and sympathetic courts sounds
like total fantasy to me. The odds that a counsellor would support
homeschooling are miniscule. The first thing most professionals
would say would be "put the kids in school," because it has LONG been
assumed that having kids at home is stressful, and add to that the
new assumption that homeschooling is very hard work, and there's no
sense appealing to professionals.
If the husband will agree to backing off, that's great.
I liked the al-Anon suggestion, too. If the mom or mom and kids
could get help from a 12 step program, then dad's anger and badness
will have a whole new perspective and less power, and maybe more
sympathy from the family. You don't have to hang on to a dragon's
tail and let it fling you all over the place. You can just see it
flailing but be unharmed. It's possible to get to that place.
When people call me for homeschooling information, I ask if they
have hostile ex spouse, but a hostile CURRENT spouse is as great a
problem. Unless both parents agree, homeschooling will be stress.
Depending why the kids are out, it might or might not be worth them
going back to school so that the recalcitrant parent remembers or
realizes how bad school can be for them and appreciates the
homeschooling.
Both school and homeschooling will be there later. Neither decision
is irreversible.
Sandra
pam sorooshian
Irene -- For some detailed information from a homeschooling mother who
is also an attorney who has worked with homeschooling families on
custody and other cases see the HomeSchool Association of California's
website at:
<http://hsc.org/chaos/legal/articles/custody.php>.
-pam
is also an attorney who has worked with homeschooling families on
custody and other cases see the HomeSchool Association of California's
website at:
<http://hsc.org/chaos/legal/articles/custody.php>.
-pam
pam sorooshian
On Dec 24, 2004, at 10:08 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
family, child therapists who are very knowledgeable about homeschooling
and even unschooling - there are homeschooling/unschooling/attachment
parenting advocates who are now working as therapists. If anybody is in
Southern California and needs one, I can help out with a referral.
Other locations - I don't have information, but asking in local and
state homeschooling circles might turn up somebody. I wouldn't be
surprised.
Sympathetic courts are another matter - the usual procedure in custody
fights is to leave the children in their status quo - that's the
default, most often. I know that because one recommendation I've heard
made by an attorney I know, who is a homeschooling parent, is that when
a divorce is happening, that it is a bad idea to TEMPORARILY put the
kids in school and then try to get a judge to allow them to return to
homeschooling.
In California, people have had somewhat good luck with putting the kids
in a charter school independent study program at the first sign that
divorce could be a possibility. People have won the right to keep their
kids in those programs even when the other spouse is asking the judge
to order them into public school. There are charter programs that are
homeschooling programs - with varying degrees of reporting requirements
- and there are charters that even support unschooling.
I have a friend who won the right to continue to homeschool her son -
it was a battle against her ex. It got to the point of going to court
(no out of court agreement, no mediators, etc.) and she presented a
"case for homeschooling that particular child" and she won --- she says
that one of the things that MOST impressed the judge was a handful of
photographs that she presented as evidence of his social interaction -
they were pictures of our homeschool group - and the one the judge
seemed surprised and impressed by was one of all the kids, all ages,
playing together at a Halloween party. She was very very glad she'd
taken the photos, felt that made all the difference. And, in fact, the
judge said such nice things about how she'd done such a good job
homeschooling him, that the judge asked the ex if he wouldn't do
better by his son if he'd help, not be a hindrance, in his education
and the ex agreed with the judge, that it would be better for his son.
A completely unexpected turn of events. She said her ex listened to the
evidence for homeschooling presented to the judge - even though he'd
never even really listened to her before when she tried to talk to him
about it. It was like he was hearing it for the first time.
-pam
> The reassuring ideas about counsellors and sympathetic courts soundsThere are now enough homeschoolers around that there are marriage,
> like total fantasy to me. The odds that a counsellor would support
> homeschooling are miniscule. The first thing most professionals
> would say would be "put the kids in school," because it has LONG been
> assumed that having kids at home is stressful, and add to that the
> new assumption that homeschooling is very hard work, and there's no
> sense appealing to professionals.
family, child therapists who are very knowledgeable about homeschooling
and even unschooling - there are homeschooling/unschooling/attachment
parenting advocates who are now working as therapists. If anybody is in
Southern California and needs one, I can help out with a referral.
Other locations - I don't have information, but asking in local and
state homeschooling circles might turn up somebody. I wouldn't be
surprised.
Sympathetic courts are another matter - the usual procedure in custody
fights is to leave the children in their status quo - that's the
default, most often. I know that because one recommendation I've heard
made by an attorney I know, who is a homeschooling parent, is that when
a divorce is happening, that it is a bad idea to TEMPORARILY put the
kids in school and then try to get a judge to allow them to return to
homeschooling.
In California, people have had somewhat good luck with putting the kids
in a charter school independent study program at the first sign that
divorce could be a possibility. People have won the right to keep their
kids in those programs even when the other spouse is asking the judge
to order them into public school. There are charter programs that are
homeschooling programs - with varying degrees of reporting requirements
- and there are charters that even support unschooling.
I have a friend who won the right to continue to homeschool her son -
it was a battle against her ex. It got to the point of going to court
(no out of court agreement, no mediators, etc.) and she presented a
"case for homeschooling that particular child" and she won --- she says
that one of the things that MOST impressed the judge was a handful of
photographs that she presented as evidence of his social interaction -
they were pictures of our homeschool group - and the one the judge
seemed surprised and impressed by was one of all the kids, all ages,
playing together at a Halloween party. She was very very glad she'd
taken the photos, felt that made all the difference. And, in fact, the
judge said such nice things about how she'd done such a good job
homeschooling him, that the judge asked the ex if he wouldn't do
better by his son if he'd help, not be a hindrance, in his education
and the ex agreed with the judge, that it would be better for his son.
A completely unexpected turn of events. She said her ex listened to the
evidence for homeschooling presented to the judge - even though he'd
never even really listened to her before when she tried to talk to him
about it. It was like he was hearing it for the first time.
-pam
Penne & Buddies
Obviously, this is not an alcohol/drug-related problem, or
else "Irene" would have surely mentioned it in her letter. Sounds
like eleven years (or the last four) of frustration coming to a
head. I can guess that Irene's DH was probably apprehensive and
fearful about going into unknown homeschooling territory with the
kids, and perhaps the specter of unschooling pushed him over the
edge. The apparent lack of effective communication skills just
exacerbates the problem to the point of snide and sarcastic comments
toward DW and the kids, who seem to be naively on "her side."
My holiday message included a quote from Marshall Rosenberg and a
link to the Center for Nonviolent Communication --
http://www.cnvc.org Depending on where Irene is located, there may
be a trainer or supporter nearby that could assist her in a
little "emergency" empathy at this point. First, get yourself to a
place where you feel comfortable, then give the kids and finally
hubby some of their own.
The online materials are very comprehensive and informative, but the
method can seem a little awkward to put into practice in real life
situations. There's a transcript of "Class Notes" under the
Learn/Teach NVC which includes some excellent tips on introducing
this new/old approach to communication to the family. Here's the
direct link to Day Two http://www.cnvc.org/cls1day2.htm Toward the
bottom of the page is a paragraph on preparing others for something
new. It's worth a try -- we've been together twenty years and tried
every trick in the book to get our message across to each other
(include constant bickering-broke our kids of the habit!) I think
this one's a keeper! I'd really like to know what Irene or anyone
else thinks of this concept. Until later, Amigos...
Feliz Navidad ~
Penne & the Crew
'Tis the Season for Giving from the Heart
http://kitchencrew.ardfamilyco-op.net
else "Irene" would have surely mentioned it in her letter. Sounds
like eleven years (or the last four) of frustration coming to a
head. I can guess that Irene's DH was probably apprehensive and
fearful about going into unknown homeschooling territory with the
kids, and perhaps the specter of unschooling pushed him over the
edge. The apparent lack of effective communication skills just
exacerbates the problem to the point of snide and sarcastic comments
toward DW and the kids, who seem to be naively on "her side."
My holiday message included a quote from Marshall Rosenberg and a
link to the Center for Nonviolent Communication --
http://www.cnvc.org Depending on where Irene is located, there may
be a trainer or supporter nearby that could assist her in a
little "emergency" empathy at this point. First, get yourself to a
place where you feel comfortable, then give the kids and finally
hubby some of their own.
The online materials are very comprehensive and informative, but the
method can seem a little awkward to put into practice in real life
situations. There's a transcript of "Class Notes" under the
Learn/Teach NVC which includes some excellent tips on introducing
this new/old approach to communication to the family. Here's the
direct link to Day Two http://www.cnvc.org/cls1day2.htm Toward the
bottom of the page is a paragraph on preparing others for something
new. It's worth a try -- we've been together twenty years and tried
every trick in the book to get our message across to each other
(include constant bickering-broke our kids of the habit!) I think
this one's a keeper! I'd really like to know what Irene or anyone
else thinks of this concept. Until later, Amigos...
Feliz Navidad ~
Penne & the Crew
'Tis the Season for Giving from the Heart
http://kitchencrew.ardfamilyco-op.net
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> A reader has a problem I would like to present anonymously. Or
rather let's
> say it's Irene (which is my sister's name, but this is not my
sister, and I
> haven't noticed another Irene on the list so if there's an Irene
reading, sorry
> to have borrowed a too-familiar name).
>
> So "Irene" writes the following. Can any of you with even the
slightest
> idea or suggestion please post it here? It's nearly Christmas and
a little peace
> and encouragement can go a long way.
>
> Thanks!
> Sandra
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
<snip>
steffieb28
Thank you for all the great suggestions it is really appreciated. I have tried counseling, which didn't work. At the time we were going to get a divorce and this was the last resort. 6 years ago, if I am not mistaken, we went to counseling to iron out some issues that had festered so long he and I both were resentful and would have killed each-other if we didn't do something. While we were in counseling the issue at hand was because I did not clean enough for him. It was a rather trivial reason to want to leave someone but I understood. He and I both came from an abusive family which would explain the early pregnancy. So with that said it is obvious why we found ourselves in counseling after 5 years of marriage. We left counseling with little to go on. I was told if I just cleaned more then he would be happier. I was incredibly mad and was totally against it at the time. It just seemed ridiculous that a cluttered house would upset someone to the point of cursing, yelling, and tossing
things about. So for the next year I fought the suggested advice and eventually I couldn't take it anymore so I started cleaning. I got to a point that it was no longer worth the fight. To this day the house still is not clean enough. Now I am sure you all are wondering what do I mean by clean. How clean would the house have to be before he was satisfied? House beautiful, William Sonoma, and better homes and gardens are what comes to mind. Perfect homes with no dust, no clutter, nice furniture with no rips or stains, carpets so lush that you could sleep on them. These are all things that he values. These are all things that we do not have, nor could we really ever afford. The other issue is money. We never have any. Kinda funny really because who does. The bills are paid and we have food to eat and clothes to wear and that is good enough for me. He however wants thousands of dollars left over at the end of the month so he can go live a luxurious life style like the life styles of
the rich and famous. These are all things that I have no interest in. I mean sure they would be nice, but thats not realistic. I suppose I should tell you that his father and grandmother on his moms side are both millionaires, so this is where he gets it. I could go on and on but I don't see how this will be of any good. As far as the kids go, we did put them back in school and when the teachers wouldn't let my daughter go to the bathroom and she defecated on herself, and the teacher of my son made him miss recess everyday because his work wasn't done, or because he missed to many, I had enough and took them out again swearing never to put them through it as long as I was alive. You see its not that I have not tried the things suggested its just that they haven't worked. I suppose the only thing that I have yet to do is go to a lawyer. Divorce is something that I was told I could never do. I would go to hell, God would reject me, and it is ingrained in my mind so deeply that it
scared me. I have come to realize of course that I wont go to Hell and I can make a choice like that because I am a free person. I am still scared but believe I have no other choice. I must do what my gut has been telling me to do all these years. I know in my heart what needs to be done. Ive just been terrified of him taking my kids. But I guess talking to a lawyer cant hurt right.........This is the beginning of freedom and the start of a new stronger me....thanks again your suggestions put my life into perspective and helped me come to do what I knew I needed to do all along...
"Irene"
---------------------------------
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things about. So for the next year I fought the suggested advice and eventually I couldn't take it anymore so I started cleaning. I got to a point that it was no longer worth the fight. To this day the house still is not clean enough. Now I am sure you all are wondering what do I mean by clean. How clean would the house have to be before he was satisfied? House beautiful, William Sonoma, and better homes and gardens are what comes to mind. Perfect homes with no dust, no clutter, nice furniture with no rips or stains, carpets so lush that you could sleep on them. These are all things that he values. These are all things that we do not have, nor could we really ever afford. The other issue is money. We never have any. Kinda funny really because who does. The bills are paid and we have food to eat and clothes to wear and that is good enough for me. He however wants thousands of dollars left over at the end of the month so he can go live a luxurious life style like the life styles of
the rich and famous. These are all things that I have no interest in. I mean sure they would be nice, but thats not realistic. I suppose I should tell you that his father and grandmother on his moms side are both millionaires, so this is where he gets it. I could go on and on but I don't see how this will be of any good. As far as the kids go, we did put them back in school and when the teachers wouldn't let my daughter go to the bathroom and she defecated on herself, and the teacher of my son made him miss recess everyday because his work wasn't done, or because he missed to many, I had enough and took them out again swearing never to put them through it as long as I was alive. You see its not that I have not tried the things suggested its just that they haven't worked. I suppose the only thing that I have yet to do is go to a lawyer. Divorce is something that I was told I could never do. I would go to hell, God would reject me, and it is ingrained in my mind so deeply that it
scared me. I have come to realize of course that I wont go to Hell and I can make a choice like that because I am a free person. I am still scared but believe I have no other choice. I must do what my gut has been telling me to do all these years. I know in my heart what needs to be done. Ive just been terrified of him taking my kids. But I guess talking to a lawyer cant hurt right.........This is the beginning of freedom and the start of a new stronger me....thanks again your suggestions put my life into perspective and helped me come to do what I knew I needed to do all along...
"Irene"
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Okay, I am going to go way out there in my advice...my advice my be totally different than any else, but I recommend you read the book "The Care and Feeding of Husbands" by Dr. Laura. It sounds to me like your relationship needs a lot of mending -- and that this is much deeper than just the homeschooling issue.
I have very little sympathy for anyone who is abusive, but after reading your letter the one of many things that came to mind was about your husband and wife relationship. I think it is important to be loving, mindful, and gentle to our children, but both of you need to be the same way to each other. How can you get there? It won't be easy, but maybe there is room for you to make some changes in how you care for him. I think it is worth a try.
Now, I should add, that if he is very opposed to homeschooling, mending your own relationship probably won't help. But then I wonder where was he when the decision was first made to homeschool? And if he did agree to it in the beginning, why has he changed his feelings on it?
~~Brandie~~
http://www.scrapbookingwithbrandie.com
http://scrapblogging.blogspot.com
I have very little sympathy for anyone who is abusive, but after reading your letter the one of many things that came to mind was about your husband and wife relationship. I think it is important to be loving, mindful, and gentle to our children, but both of you need to be the same way to each other. How can you get there? It won't be easy, but maybe there is room for you to make some changes in how you care for him. I think it is worth a try.
Now, I should add, that if he is very opposed to homeschooling, mending your own relationship probably won't help. But then I wonder where was he when the decision was first made to homeschool? And if he did agree to it in the beginning, why has he changed his feelings on it?
~~Brandie~~
http://www.scrapbookingwithbrandie.com
http://scrapblogging.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 6:34 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] a difficult problem
A reader has a problem I would like to present anonymously. Or rather let's
say it's Irene (which is my sister's name, but this is not my sister, and I
haven't noticed another Irene on the list so if there's an Irene reading, sorry
to have borrowed a too-familiar name).
So "Irene" writes the following. Can any of you with even the slightest
idea or suggestion please post it here? It's nearly Christmas and a little peace
and encouragement can go a long way.
Thanks!
Sandra
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Hi. . . I have 3 kids ages 12, 10, and 9. Girl, boy, girl, is their
birthorder. I have been "homeschooling" for 3 years now and just started unschooling
about 4 months ago, (which I love and so do they, its simply wonderful).
My problem lies not with my kids or myself but with my husband. To be frank
he is down right abusive, verbally, not physically. He hates me homeschooling.
I mean he loathes me homeschooling. If the kids dont answer his questions
right or if they do something silly by accident, he calls them "homeschools". He
tells me and them that they wont make it later in life, that they will be
flipping burgers and asking want fries with that? He says you just wait and see
they wont make anything of themselves and I am not going to support them the
rest of their lives!! I can only intervene so much, I am only one person. I need
two more people sheltering the kids from him. They have learned to ignore it
and to be honest they have lost all respect for him. I know though that it
still hurts them to hear their dad think so poorly of them. It is affecting my
oldest daughters self esteem. They wont do what he asks. Honestly they just
fllat out ignore him because they know it doesnt matter how they do the job, its
not going to be good enough and then he will just make fun of them.
I have contemplated leaving him on several occasions but I am terrified that
if I did I would have a court order telling me I have to put them back in
school. Its just not worth the risk to me, and I know my husband, he is very
vendictive and he would try and take them from me. I dont want my kids going
through a battle like that. So I stay and fight, and fight, and fight.....its
becoming really difficult for me to continue. I have been battling him since we
first got married 11 years ago. We married young because we had our first child
out of wedlock and I was determined to marry him no matter the consequences.
I was stuborn, controling and far to young to
make such a big decision. I was 18 and he was 17, his mother had to sign
because he was not legal yet.
Anyway, no matter the struggle I will fight him for my kids who cant fight
him themselves. I just dont know how to handle the situation anymore. It is
getting worse, he doesnt hold his tongue at all anymore. I am at a loss. I want
to leave but I am terrified of loosing my kids. Since everything he does is
strickly verbal then there are no bruses, I cant prove it. I could video tape
him but it would have to be with his knowledge or the evidence would be
unuseable. If I ever did get permission to videotape him, he would put on an act that
no judge would fight. I feel trapped and really need some help. . . . .
Thank you for reading this and I look forward to hearing from you...
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[email protected]
In a message dated 12/25/2004 12:52:02 AM Central Standard Time,
brandie@... writes:
Okay, I am going to go way out there in my advice...my advice my be totally
different than any else, but I recommend you read the book "The Care and
Feeding of Husbands" by Dr. Laura. It sounds to me like your relationship needs
a lot of mending -- and that this is much deeper than just the homeschooling
issue.
~~~
Irene, just don't go there. The last thing you need is a guilt trip.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
brandie@... writes:
Okay, I am going to go way out there in my advice...my advice my be totally
different than any else, but I recommend you read the book "The Care and
Feeding of Husbands" by Dr. Laura. It sounds to me like your relationship needs
a lot of mending -- and that this is much deeper than just the homeschooling
issue.
~~~
Irene, just don't go there. The last thing you need is a guilt trip.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/24/04 5:04:39 PM, crrbuddy@... writes:
<< Obviously, this is not an alcohol/drug-related problem, or
else "Irene" would have surely mentioned it in her letter. >>
Just because something isn't mentioned doesn't mean it's not a factor.
Some people who have lived with alcohol all their lives think every other
couple/family does as well. They might think it's not worth mentioning.
So it might not be a factor, but "obviously" is too strong a statement to
make.
Dysfunctions that come from alcoholic families can be passed on in the
absence of alcohol, too.
Sandra
<< Obviously, this is not an alcohol/drug-related problem, or
else "Irene" would have surely mentioned it in her letter. >>
Just because something isn't mentioned doesn't mean it's not a factor.
Some people who have lived with alcohol all their lives think every other
couple/family does as well. They might think it's not worth mentioning.
So it might not be a factor, but "obviously" is too strong a statement to
make.
Dysfunctions that come from alcoholic families can be passed on in the
absence of alcohol, too.
Sandra
queenjane555
> Dysfunctions that come from alcoholic families can be passed on inAlso, sometimes people just have a personality disorder, and there's
>the absence of alcohol, too.
not a whole lot you can do to change them, but alot you can do to
change how you react to them, how you feel about yourself,
etc....which i would think is very similar to how you might deal
with an addict.
My father stopped drinking by the time i came along, but still was a
very narcissistic person. Its a little crazy-making, dealing with
someone like that, unless you realize that it has nothing to do with
you, and little you do will change him. I think giving kids in such
a family tools to deal with a father who is overly critical, or who
has negative personality traits, would be helpful. I think a group
like Al-Anon might be helpful in empowering them around their
father.
Katherine
Robyn Coburn
My problem lies not with my kids or myself but with my husband. To be frank
he is down right abusive, verbally, not physically.
Snip....
I have contemplated leaving him on several occasions but I am terrified that
if I did I would have a court order telling me I have to put them back in
school. Its just not worth the risk to me, and I know my husband, he is
very vendictive and he would try and take them from me. I dont want my kids
going through a battle like that. So I stay and fight, and fight, and
fight.....its becoming really difficult for me to continue. I have been
battling him since we first got married 11 years ago.
Snip....
I am at a loss. I want to leave but I am terrified of loosing my kids. Since
everything he does is strickly verbal then there are no bruses, I cant prove
it.
Snip....
I feel trapped and really need some help. >>>>>
It has taken me a few days to respond to this because I wanted to think it
over, as well as see the other responses rather than be merely repetitive.
I have snipped out the above quotes leaving out references to homeschooling
for a reason. The reason is that when I first read the plea my thought was
that it is not really homeschooling that is at the heart of this problem but
something else - the dreadful state of Irene and her husband's relationship.
Now Irene has posted a follow up telling us how counseling has been tried,
and of the apparently growing schism in life philosophies that has continued
to plague their marriage.
<<<<<I have been battling him since we first got married 11 years ago.>>>>>
This is certainly before any homeschooling began.
My first marriage when I was 20 was similar to this, except thankfully
without any kids. He was verbally abusive in a similarly put-down way, and I
felt very victimized, downtrodden and trapped at the time. We too fought
ostensibly about housekeeping and money, or its lack. Also he was a terrific
actor and able to charm people at least temporarily. Now, 20 years later, I
can see my part in exacerbating/enabling his negative qualities, and how my
controlling nature led me to stay in the relationship for a lot longer than
was either healthy or necessary. Trying to change or fix him was futile in
the end.
I too had fears that he would vindictively seek revenge, although without
children to worry about, I'm sure Irene's are much greater than mine were.
He did poison my dog at one point. Eventually I found a way to leave the
relationship, which was not the same way I would act to end such a situation
today. Today, or more accurately with my current self-knowledge, I would be
more direct, and act sooner.
My fears about him were not entirely groundless, but certainly not realized
to the extent that I worried. I was able to scare him off when he came
around drunkenly with a buddy and threw rocks at my wall, with one call to
the police in the middle of the night, and he only broke into my new
apartment once when I was out, in order to leave a nasty note for me to
find.
Someone else wrote about depression. My ex had a problem with some kind of
mental illness or emotional instability or whatever it would be called
clinically. He was a compulsive liar, and became a thief. I only realized
the extent of his problem after we split up, although the clues were always
there. For example he had spent a long time in psychiatric counseling as a
youngster (which I know many people do and get a lot of help from - it is
just part of the bigger picture). In his case I think it taught him how to
lie more effectively. His parents had a huge padlock on the door to their
bedroom, which they continued to lock whenever they left him alone in the
house, maintaining the custom they had from his childhood even when he was
grown.
After our marriage ended, I attempted to continue with a business
relationship; that calmly civilized behavior lasted only a couple of months.
He had moved into a shared apartment. His roommates, and himself, were
having electronics "stolen" from the house. The lot turned up under his bed,
where he continued to express astonishment and denial. I happened to be
there when this occurred, and at one point he broke down and begged for
psychological help. His friends, from childhood, did try to help him at that
time, but when the actual time to go see someone came, he backed out
somehow. He had backed out from marriage counseling with me also.
This was all more background than I intended to write. It is just that my
thoughts on this are inevitably colored by my horrible experience of living
with a verbal abuser. Like other kinds of abuse, it doesn't burst full blown
like Athena from Zeus's forehead. It takes a while to get the level of being
constant, and it takes a while for the recipient to be worn down to the
point of starting to believe that it is deserved or justifiable.
Irene talks of an eleven year long battle. Maybe her husband also feels
trapped, and has transferred his expressions of resentment from herself to
the children. Maybe Irene is a controlling personality, as I was, and makes
decisions without consensus, and has unwittingly created a situation where
the only outlet her dh feels he has is to criticize the children.
Or maybe, like my ex, he is an abusive asshole, with mental and emotional
problems that she will not be able to fix not matter how hard she and a
marriage counselor try.
Most likely the real situation is much more complex than these simple
distillations.
I do know that the children shouldn't have to live with and bear the burden
of a bad relationship between the parents.
Pam suggested the reading about the legalities of the situation. There have
been suggestions ranging from visiting doctors to reading self-help books. I
think that getting more (and better) professional help may be a better
alternative than ending the marriage - provided the husband is willing, and
getting to the root of these surface issues (it ain't really cleaning) and
learning how to communicate needs without abusiveness are the goals. Does he
even realize that Irene is having these trapped feelings? OTOH is he wanting
out but doesn't know how to initiate it?
However someone brought up the issue of whether it is better to live with a
critical father or not have one's father in the home. Is it really better to
live each day with someone who makes you feel lousy about yourself, whose
presence you must struggle to ignore, who is creating the likelihood of you
re-creating this abusive lifestyle for your future adult relationships? Is
it better for a mother to model living in fear, sticking out and enduring
abuse for her dd's? Is it better for ds to learn that this is how men treat
their wives? All this negative stuff gets absorbed no matter how much the
kids "ignore" what is being said to them. Neither Irene's nor her husband's
demons should be the children's responsibility to deal with.
I stayed longer than I should have in my abusive marriage and it took me
years to restore my self esteem, and even longer to take responsibility for
my part in our disagreements (ie screaming arguments). I had learnt from my
own painful childhood that love feels like pain, loss, abandonment and
criticism. It took a lot of work as an adult to get to a place where I have
been able to welcome love that feels like kindness, generosity, fulfillment
and support. Jayn will not have to spend the years I did discovering what
real unconditional love feels like, or have to guess how two adults who love
each other behave towards each other, despite our various shortcomings.
I truly hoped that this would turn out to be only about a disagreement
regarding homeschooling. I truly hope this turns out to be about a couple of
adults who need some help learning to communicate better. I don't usually
agree with Dr. Phil, but his idea that it takes 100 "atta boys" to
compensate for one nasty criticism, is useful to remember in terms of the
sense of urgency about seeking help or change, to make life better for the
children.
Good luck with it, Irene. Maybe seek some counseling or group therapy (as
others have noted) such as for adult survivors of child abuse, for yourself
no matter what happens with him.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
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he is down right abusive, verbally, not physically.
Snip....
I have contemplated leaving him on several occasions but I am terrified that
if I did I would have a court order telling me I have to put them back in
school. Its just not worth the risk to me, and I know my husband, he is
very vendictive and he would try and take them from me. I dont want my kids
going through a battle like that. So I stay and fight, and fight, and
fight.....its becoming really difficult for me to continue. I have been
battling him since we first got married 11 years ago.
Snip....
I am at a loss. I want to leave but I am terrified of loosing my kids. Since
everything he does is strickly verbal then there are no bruses, I cant prove
it.
Snip....
I feel trapped and really need some help. >>>>>
It has taken me a few days to respond to this because I wanted to think it
over, as well as see the other responses rather than be merely repetitive.
I have snipped out the above quotes leaving out references to homeschooling
for a reason. The reason is that when I first read the plea my thought was
that it is not really homeschooling that is at the heart of this problem but
something else - the dreadful state of Irene and her husband's relationship.
Now Irene has posted a follow up telling us how counseling has been tried,
and of the apparently growing schism in life philosophies that has continued
to plague their marriage.
<<<<<I have been battling him since we first got married 11 years ago.>>>>>
This is certainly before any homeschooling began.
My first marriage when I was 20 was similar to this, except thankfully
without any kids. He was verbally abusive in a similarly put-down way, and I
felt very victimized, downtrodden and trapped at the time. We too fought
ostensibly about housekeeping and money, or its lack. Also he was a terrific
actor and able to charm people at least temporarily. Now, 20 years later, I
can see my part in exacerbating/enabling his negative qualities, and how my
controlling nature led me to stay in the relationship for a lot longer than
was either healthy or necessary. Trying to change or fix him was futile in
the end.
I too had fears that he would vindictively seek revenge, although without
children to worry about, I'm sure Irene's are much greater than mine were.
He did poison my dog at one point. Eventually I found a way to leave the
relationship, which was not the same way I would act to end such a situation
today. Today, or more accurately with my current self-knowledge, I would be
more direct, and act sooner.
My fears about him were not entirely groundless, but certainly not realized
to the extent that I worried. I was able to scare him off when he came
around drunkenly with a buddy and threw rocks at my wall, with one call to
the police in the middle of the night, and he only broke into my new
apartment once when I was out, in order to leave a nasty note for me to
find.
Someone else wrote about depression. My ex had a problem with some kind of
mental illness or emotional instability or whatever it would be called
clinically. He was a compulsive liar, and became a thief. I only realized
the extent of his problem after we split up, although the clues were always
there. For example he had spent a long time in psychiatric counseling as a
youngster (which I know many people do and get a lot of help from - it is
just part of the bigger picture). In his case I think it taught him how to
lie more effectively. His parents had a huge padlock on the door to their
bedroom, which they continued to lock whenever they left him alone in the
house, maintaining the custom they had from his childhood even when he was
grown.
After our marriage ended, I attempted to continue with a business
relationship; that calmly civilized behavior lasted only a couple of months.
He had moved into a shared apartment. His roommates, and himself, were
having electronics "stolen" from the house. The lot turned up under his bed,
where he continued to express astonishment and denial. I happened to be
there when this occurred, and at one point he broke down and begged for
psychological help. His friends, from childhood, did try to help him at that
time, but when the actual time to go see someone came, he backed out
somehow. He had backed out from marriage counseling with me also.
This was all more background than I intended to write. It is just that my
thoughts on this are inevitably colored by my horrible experience of living
with a verbal abuser. Like other kinds of abuse, it doesn't burst full blown
like Athena from Zeus's forehead. It takes a while to get the level of being
constant, and it takes a while for the recipient to be worn down to the
point of starting to believe that it is deserved or justifiable.
Irene talks of an eleven year long battle. Maybe her husband also feels
trapped, and has transferred his expressions of resentment from herself to
the children. Maybe Irene is a controlling personality, as I was, and makes
decisions without consensus, and has unwittingly created a situation where
the only outlet her dh feels he has is to criticize the children.
Or maybe, like my ex, he is an abusive asshole, with mental and emotional
problems that she will not be able to fix not matter how hard she and a
marriage counselor try.
Most likely the real situation is much more complex than these simple
distillations.
I do know that the children shouldn't have to live with and bear the burden
of a bad relationship between the parents.
Pam suggested the reading about the legalities of the situation. There have
been suggestions ranging from visiting doctors to reading self-help books. I
think that getting more (and better) professional help may be a better
alternative than ending the marriage - provided the husband is willing, and
getting to the root of these surface issues (it ain't really cleaning) and
learning how to communicate needs without abusiveness are the goals. Does he
even realize that Irene is having these trapped feelings? OTOH is he wanting
out but doesn't know how to initiate it?
However someone brought up the issue of whether it is better to live with a
critical father or not have one's father in the home. Is it really better to
live each day with someone who makes you feel lousy about yourself, whose
presence you must struggle to ignore, who is creating the likelihood of you
re-creating this abusive lifestyle for your future adult relationships? Is
it better for a mother to model living in fear, sticking out and enduring
abuse for her dd's? Is it better for ds to learn that this is how men treat
their wives? All this negative stuff gets absorbed no matter how much the
kids "ignore" what is being said to them. Neither Irene's nor her husband's
demons should be the children's responsibility to deal with.
I stayed longer than I should have in my abusive marriage and it took me
years to restore my self esteem, and even longer to take responsibility for
my part in our disagreements (ie screaming arguments). I had learnt from my
own painful childhood that love feels like pain, loss, abandonment and
criticism. It took a lot of work as an adult to get to a place where I have
been able to welcome love that feels like kindness, generosity, fulfillment
and support. Jayn will not have to spend the years I did discovering what
real unconditional love feels like, or have to guess how two adults who love
each other behave towards each other, despite our various shortcomings.
I truly hoped that this would turn out to be only about a disagreement
regarding homeschooling. I truly hope this turns out to be about a couple of
adults who need some help learning to communicate better. I don't usually
agree with Dr. Phil, but his idea that it takes 100 "atta boys" to
compensate for one nasty criticism, is useful to remember in terms of the
sense of urgency about seeking help or change, to make life better for the
children.
Good luck with it, Irene. Maybe seek some counseling or group therapy (as
others have noted) such as for adult survivors of child abuse, for yourself
no matter what happens with him.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Penne & Buddies
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
reminder about the importance of using this word very carefully.
overcome in unschooling -- that is, the labeling that so often
accompanies so-called "dysfunctions" of the times, liberally applied
to a given person or situation based on orthodox beliefs? It's very
disheartening to me to see Irene reach out for help in the hopes of
finding a positive alternative to divorce, and end up with the
conclusion that it's basically over. And this seemingly (but not
obviously) based on the common assumption that putting in any more
effort into reconciliation with all the unknown factors could just
end up being more of a waste of time than it already seems to have
been.
One round of counseling sessions with a "professional" who suggests
that cleaning house will solve all marital woes certainly leaves me
with a feeling of disgust (to put it mildly,) if not camaraderie in
the never-ending combat of clutter -- also a longstanding bone of
contention at our place (home of eight creative kids and a former
card-carrying member of Messies Anonymous -- no more labels for me!)
Sandra, that reminds me of your article on the benefits of holding
on to your "treasures." If you've got the link handy, please share
it again. I've let a lot of my oldies, but goodies, go in the
attempt to achieve that almighty standard of "clean" -- regrets, I
have a few, but then again, too few to mention... In my experience,
there's definitely much more to it than meets the eye.
I love Marshall Rosenberg's approach to people and life in general
in his practice of Nonviolent Communication (NVC) -- simply, that
all people have the same basic needs, just different strategies of
meeting them (from spending time on non-domestic activities while
the dishes remain undone to cluttering up the underside of our bed
with others' possessions and/or engaging in self-denial about the
problem.) One of the strongest needs to be met, in NVC theory, is
the need to give to others. That makes all the difference in the
world when it comes to sharing our lives with others on the planet.
With NVC, even the most "dysfunctional" personalities can come to
agreeable terms with no labeling, no blaming, no threats or lawsuits
necessary. No sermon intended, but this is also in line with the
practice of Christian Science (CS), in which all people are held in
the same light and viewed with the same great potential for being a
positive force in the world. There are no throwaways, no incurable
dis-eases, no hopelessly dysfunctional people, relationships, etc.,
in this faith and I'm living proof of that! (Always happy to
elaborate if anyone's interested, onlist or off.)
Once the labels and assumptions are tossed aside, there are no more
limitations holding us back and the possibilities for improving our
life and wellbeing are endless. I see the fear of continuing on
with a difficult situation, but have to agree with Sandra as one who
has came in to a broken home after-the-fact and lived the stepfamily
life while helping to raise my husband's and _our_ ex-wife's
firstborn for the past twenty years (and it doesn't end when they
come of age!) -- sympathetic courts and fair custodial arrangements
are a fantasy.
It all boils down to open communication and if that is a problem
during the marriage, it will more than likely go steadily downhill
once divorce papers are served! If you think the kids are unhappy
now, wait till they have to split time between two homes, especially
if their relationship with their father is already strained to the
max. Gotta be a better way, and I truly believe there is based on
what I've heard of Irene's situation and our family's experience.
Our oldest child had a decent, loving relationship with both parents
and step-parents, and still remembers his childhood as a tug-o-war
because of our essential lack of trust and communication with one
another. His siblings watched what Marshall calls the "jackal show"
from the sidelines and tried to live their own lives around it and
despite our seemingly futile efforts to make it work. It affected
everyone involved to one degree or another.
Now that their brother's begun a family of his own and is already
struggling with separation issues, no one here has any doubts
whatsoever that we are all in sore need of something, if not more
effective communication skills, as the various "dysfunctional"
aspects of our relationships seem to have been passed down once &
again. I can't help but wonder why the most "functional" parts went
by the wayside... there have been plenty of good times, after all.
I'm counting on CS and NVC to get us through this one intact!
I hope this helps put the "dysfunctional" label in a new perspective
and encourages others to think in more unlimited terms when advising
Irene on matters of the heart. 'Tis a much happier way to celebrate
the New Year with a resolution to find a way to meet others' needs
without compromising our own. I hear it can be done, and would love
to know if anyone else thinks it's a real possibility, too.
Keep the Faith, Hope, and most of all ~ Love,
Penne & Family
http://connections.ardfamilyco-op.net/pdacard1.jpg
"What I want in my life is compassion, a flow between myself and
others based on a mutual giving from the heart."
Marshall B. Rosenberg, author of Nonviolent Communication: A
Language of Compassion
http://www.cnvc.org
>factor.
> In a message dated 12/24/04 5:04:39 PM, crrbuddy@y... writes:
>
> << Obviously, this is not an alcohol/drug-related problem, or
>
> else "Irene" would have surely mentioned it in her letter. >>
>
> Just because something isn't mentioned doesn't mean it's not a
> Some people who have lived with alcohol all their lives thinkevery other
> couple/family does as well. They might think it's not worthmentioning.
>statement to
> So it might not be a factor, but "obviously" is too strong a
> make.[PA] Thanks for pointing that out, Sandra -- I'm glad for the
reminder about the importance of using this word very carefully.
>the
> Dysfunctions that come from alcoholic families can be passed on in
> absence of alcohol, too.[PA] Yet, isn't this the mentality that we've strived so hard to
>
> Sandra
overcome in unschooling -- that is, the labeling that so often
accompanies so-called "dysfunctions" of the times, liberally applied
to a given person or situation based on orthodox beliefs? It's very
disheartening to me to see Irene reach out for help in the hopes of
finding a positive alternative to divorce, and end up with the
conclusion that it's basically over. And this seemingly (but not
obviously) based on the common assumption that putting in any more
effort into reconciliation with all the unknown factors could just
end up being more of a waste of time than it already seems to have
been.
One round of counseling sessions with a "professional" who suggests
that cleaning house will solve all marital woes certainly leaves me
with a feeling of disgust (to put it mildly,) if not camaraderie in
the never-ending combat of clutter -- also a longstanding bone of
contention at our place (home of eight creative kids and a former
card-carrying member of Messies Anonymous -- no more labels for me!)
Sandra, that reminds me of your article on the benefits of holding
on to your "treasures." If you've got the link handy, please share
it again. I've let a lot of my oldies, but goodies, go in the
attempt to achieve that almighty standard of "clean" -- regrets, I
have a few, but then again, too few to mention... In my experience,
there's definitely much more to it than meets the eye.
I love Marshall Rosenberg's approach to people and life in general
in his practice of Nonviolent Communication (NVC) -- simply, that
all people have the same basic needs, just different strategies of
meeting them (from spending time on non-domestic activities while
the dishes remain undone to cluttering up the underside of our bed
with others' possessions and/or engaging in self-denial about the
problem.) One of the strongest needs to be met, in NVC theory, is
the need to give to others. That makes all the difference in the
world when it comes to sharing our lives with others on the planet.
With NVC, even the most "dysfunctional" personalities can come to
agreeable terms with no labeling, no blaming, no threats or lawsuits
necessary. No sermon intended, but this is also in line with the
practice of Christian Science (CS), in which all people are held in
the same light and viewed with the same great potential for being a
positive force in the world. There are no throwaways, no incurable
dis-eases, no hopelessly dysfunctional people, relationships, etc.,
in this faith and I'm living proof of that! (Always happy to
elaborate if anyone's interested, onlist or off.)
Once the labels and assumptions are tossed aside, there are no more
limitations holding us back and the possibilities for improving our
life and wellbeing are endless. I see the fear of continuing on
with a difficult situation, but have to agree with Sandra as one who
has came in to a broken home after-the-fact and lived the stepfamily
life while helping to raise my husband's and _our_ ex-wife's
firstborn for the past twenty years (and it doesn't end when they
come of age!) -- sympathetic courts and fair custodial arrangements
are a fantasy.
It all boils down to open communication and if that is a problem
during the marriage, it will more than likely go steadily downhill
once divorce papers are served! If you think the kids are unhappy
now, wait till they have to split time between two homes, especially
if their relationship with their father is already strained to the
max. Gotta be a better way, and I truly believe there is based on
what I've heard of Irene's situation and our family's experience.
Our oldest child had a decent, loving relationship with both parents
and step-parents, and still remembers his childhood as a tug-o-war
because of our essential lack of trust and communication with one
another. His siblings watched what Marshall calls the "jackal show"
from the sidelines and tried to live their own lives around it and
despite our seemingly futile efforts to make it work. It affected
everyone involved to one degree or another.
Now that their brother's begun a family of his own and is already
struggling with separation issues, no one here has any doubts
whatsoever that we are all in sore need of something, if not more
effective communication skills, as the various "dysfunctional"
aspects of our relationships seem to have been passed down once &
again. I can't help but wonder why the most "functional" parts went
by the wayside... there have been plenty of good times, after all.
I'm counting on CS and NVC to get us through this one intact!
I hope this helps put the "dysfunctional" label in a new perspective
and encourages others to think in more unlimited terms when advising
Irene on matters of the heart. 'Tis a much happier way to celebrate
the New Year with a resolution to find a way to meet others' needs
without compromising our own. I hear it can be done, and would love
to know if anyone else thinks it's a real possibility, too.
Keep the Faith, Hope, and most of all ~ Love,
Penne & Family
http://connections.ardfamilyco-op.net/pdacard1.jpg
"What I want in my life is compassion, a flow between myself and
others based on a mutual giving from the heart."
Marshall B. Rosenberg, author of Nonviolent Communication: A
Language of Compassion
http://www.cnvc.org
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/25/04 7:50:53 PM, steffieb28@... writes:
<< While we were in counseling the issue at hand was because I did not clean
enough for him. It was a rather trivial reason to want to leave someone but I
understood. >>
It's not a whole reason.
And not all counsellors are the same. You might find another one who has a
better suggestion than simply "clean more."
But if that becomes a point of resistance, then could it be that you resist
cleaning because it would make him happy? Because then you're not cleaning for
your kids either, and that's not good.
-=-We left counseling with little to go on. I was told if I just cleaned more
then he would be happier.-=-
One thing won't make people happier, but half a dozen things might. And when
people are happier they give back on the points they might've been holding
out on too.
-=-So for the next year I fought the suggested advice and eventually I
couldn't take it anymore so I started cleaning. I got to a point that it was no
longer worth the fight. -=-
So it does seem that non-cleaning was a tool of spite to some degree.
Counsellors can give some bad advice. In the 50's my mom told a marriage
counsellor that she hated the fact that my dad would light up a cigarette at the
dinner table before she had finished eating, and it made hesick and then she
couldn't finish her dinner. He told her that it w
Zas easily solved: she should start smoking herself. Then they would have
something else in common, and the smell wouldn't bother her anymore. So she
did and when she died (not young, 70's) that was one of the listed causes.
But housecleaning isn't a lung-killing thing. It might help for you to read
some of what's written about chores and attitudes toward them here:
http://sandradodd.com/chores
-=-I suppose I should tell you that his father and grandmother on his moms
side are both millionaires, so this is where he gets it.-=-
So he's maybe feeling like a relative failure for not having figured out a
way to be independently wealthy? Understandable. You've probably tried, but
may he needs more positive strokes that are entirely NOT money-related. Does
he have nice hair? Does he smell good? Is he good at fixing plumbing or at
shopping or fixing the car? Are there compliments and thanks you could give him
that would make him feel appreciated?
Inside every husband is the little boy who could've used more mothering, and
if you give them some they can become better men even now.
-=- I had enough and took them out again swearing never to put them through
it as long as I was alive.-=-
Not good to make promises you can't keep, not even to yourself.
"Over my dead body" is only a way for someone to wish for your death, or for
YOU to hold your own life up as a plug in the dike. It's not a healthy place
to be. You put yourself in a position where even YOU have no choices.
Here's an article on balance that might help. Unless you create and continue
to work on a situation where you have choices you've put yourself into a
helpless situation.
http://www.homeedmag.com/HEM/206/ndunschool.html
-=-You see its not that I have not tried the things suggested its just that
they haven't worked. I suppose the only thing that I have yet to do is go to a
lawyer. -=-
See? I don't think you have done the suggested things from a position of
hope and determination. (I could be wrong.) One counsellor's suggestion was
rejected, and no other counsellors were sought. That's not trying everything.
And if the only thing you can see to do is go to a lawyer, you have no
choice.
Give yourself better choices.
-=-Divorce is something that I was told I could never do. I would go to hell,
God would reject me, and it is ingrained in my mind so deeply that it
scared me. I have come to realize of course that I wont go to Hell and I can
make a choice like that because I am a free person. -=-
You're making a choice for your children, too, though, and deciding you're
free to do exactly what you want instead of first thinking about what would be
best for your kids isn't a good choice.
-=- I am still scared but believe I have no other choice. -=-
There are other choices.
You need to change what you believe.
Lots of people will easily say "get a divorce," and they'll be there for you
for a week or two or six months, but they won't take care of you and hear your
problems for twenty years.
-=-I must do what my gut has been telling me to do all these years. I know in
my heart what needs to be done. Ive just been terrified of him taking my
kids. But I guess talking to a lawyer cant hurt right-=-
Talking to a lawyer could hurt because it costs money and it's an indicator
that you're giving up. Those are possible harms.
-=-This is the beginning of freedom and the start of a new stronger me...-=-
It could be the beginning of years of horrible custody cases, of being poorer
because the same money will have to pay for TWO homes, or you'll have to get
a job and can't be with your kids even when they are at your house.
I don't think that's strength and freedom. I think you should work on your
marriage and family SERIOUSLY hard before you give up.
Sandra
<< While we were in counseling the issue at hand was because I did not clean
enough for him. It was a rather trivial reason to want to leave someone but I
understood. >>
It's not a whole reason.
And not all counsellors are the same. You might find another one who has a
better suggestion than simply "clean more."
But if that becomes a point of resistance, then could it be that you resist
cleaning because it would make him happy? Because then you're not cleaning for
your kids either, and that's not good.
-=-We left counseling with little to go on. I was told if I just cleaned more
then he would be happier.-=-
One thing won't make people happier, but half a dozen things might. And when
people are happier they give back on the points they might've been holding
out on too.
-=-So for the next year I fought the suggested advice and eventually I
couldn't take it anymore so I started cleaning. I got to a point that it was no
longer worth the fight. -=-
So it does seem that non-cleaning was a tool of spite to some degree.
Counsellors can give some bad advice. In the 50's my mom told a marriage
counsellor that she hated the fact that my dad would light up a cigarette at the
dinner table before she had finished eating, and it made hesick and then she
couldn't finish her dinner. He told her that it w
Zas easily solved: she should start smoking herself. Then they would have
something else in common, and the smell wouldn't bother her anymore. So she
did and when she died (not young, 70's) that was one of the listed causes.
But housecleaning isn't a lung-killing thing. It might help for you to read
some of what's written about chores and attitudes toward them here:
http://sandradodd.com/chores
-=-I suppose I should tell you that his father and grandmother on his moms
side are both millionaires, so this is where he gets it.-=-
So he's maybe feeling like a relative failure for not having figured out a
way to be independently wealthy? Understandable. You've probably tried, but
may he needs more positive strokes that are entirely NOT money-related. Does
he have nice hair? Does he smell good? Is he good at fixing plumbing or at
shopping or fixing the car? Are there compliments and thanks you could give him
that would make him feel appreciated?
Inside every husband is the little boy who could've used more mothering, and
if you give them some they can become better men even now.
-=- I had enough and took them out again swearing never to put them through
it as long as I was alive.-=-
Not good to make promises you can't keep, not even to yourself.
"Over my dead body" is only a way for someone to wish for your death, or for
YOU to hold your own life up as a plug in the dike. It's not a healthy place
to be. You put yourself in a position where even YOU have no choices.
Here's an article on balance that might help. Unless you create and continue
to work on a situation where you have choices you've put yourself into a
helpless situation.
http://www.homeedmag.com/HEM/206/ndunschool.html
-=-You see its not that I have not tried the things suggested its just that
they haven't worked. I suppose the only thing that I have yet to do is go to a
lawyer. -=-
See? I don't think you have done the suggested things from a position of
hope and determination. (I could be wrong.) One counsellor's suggestion was
rejected, and no other counsellors were sought. That's not trying everything.
And if the only thing you can see to do is go to a lawyer, you have no
choice.
Give yourself better choices.
-=-Divorce is something that I was told I could never do. I would go to hell,
God would reject me, and it is ingrained in my mind so deeply that it
scared me. I have come to realize of course that I wont go to Hell and I can
make a choice like that because I am a free person. -=-
You're making a choice for your children, too, though, and deciding you're
free to do exactly what you want instead of first thinking about what would be
best for your kids isn't a good choice.
-=- I am still scared but believe I have no other choice. -=-
There are other choices.
You need to change what you believe.
Lots of people will easily say "get a divorce," and they'll be there for you
for a week or two or six months, but they won't take care of you and hear your
problems for twenty years.
-=-I must do what my gut has been telling me to do all these years. I know in
my heart what needs to be done. Ive just been terrified of him taking my
kids. But I guess talking to a lawyer cant hurt right-=-
Talking to a lawyer could hurt because it costs money and it's an indicator
that you're giving up. Those are possible harms.
-=-This is the beginning of freedom and the start of a new stronger me...-=-
It could be the beginning of years of horrible custody cases, of being poorer
because the same money will have to pay for TWO homes, or you'll have to get
a job and can't be with your kids even when they are at your house.
I don't think that's strength and freedom. I think you should work on your
marriage and family SERIOUSLY hard before you give up.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/25/04 9:49:51 PM, dezigna@... writes:
<< I do know that the children shouldn't have to live with and bear the burden
of a bad relationship between the parents. >>
That won't end with a divorce. It can get much worse. And then they can get
the addition of significant (to the parents only) others, or stepparents.
And unless the parents really see the problems, the problems will continue in
other relationships as well.
-=- I
think that getting more (and better) professional help may be a better
alternative than ending the marriage - provided the husband is willing, and
getting to the root of these surface issues (it ain't really cleaning) and
learning how to communicate needs without abusiveness are the goals.-=-
I agree hugely with Robyn on this.
-=-However someone brought up the issue of whether it is better to live with a
critical father or not have one's father in the home. Is it really better to
live each day with someone who makes you feel lousy about yourself, whose
presence you must struggle to ignore, who is creating the likelihood of you
re-creating this abusive lifestyle for your future adult relationships?-=-
How about every weekday without the mother there to temper it or for you to
go to if you want to cry?
How about just the weekends, where added to the regular criticism is
criticism of the mother and the other house/apartment?
Divorce doesn't make the other disappear. It removes some safeties that
marriages have.
-=-Neither Irene's nor her husband's
demons should be the children's responsibility to deal with.-=-
Then they need to subdue the demons, not spread out so there's more air to
fan the flames.
-=-Jayn will not have to spend the years I did discovering what
real unconditional love feels like, or have to guess how two adults who love
each other behave towards each other, despite our various shortcomings.-=-
That's because she is with two parents together.
The situation with children won't be the same way. Divorced childless
couples never have to interact EVER again if they don't want to. MAYBE funerals of
mutual friends. But parents have all kinds of child-related reasons to
interact. And the kids are faced with either shared custody or the almost total
loss of a parent.
Sandra
<< I do know that the children shouldn't have to live with and bear the burden
of a bad relationship between the parents. >>
That won't end with a divorce. It can get much worse. And then they can get
the addition of significant (to the parents only) others, or stepparents.
And unless the parents really see the problems, the problems will continue in
other relationships as well.
-=- I
think that getting more (and better) professional help may be a better
alternative than ending the marriage - provided the husband is willing, and
getting to the root of these surface issues (it ain't really cleaning) and
learning how to communicate needs without abusiveness are the goals.-=-
I agree hugely with Robyn on this.
-=-However someone brought up the issue of whether it is better to live with a
critical father or not have one's father in the home. Is it really better to
live each day with someone who makes you feel lousy about yourself, whose
presence you must struggle to ignore, who is creating the likelihood of you
re-creating this abusive lifestyle for your future adult relationships?-=-
How about every weekday without the mother there to temper it or for you to
go to if you want to cry?
How about just the weekends, where added to the regular criticism is
criticism of the mother and the other house/apartment?
Divorce doesn't make the other disappear. It removes some safeties that
marriages have.
-=-Neither Irene's nor her husband's
demons should be the children's responsibility to deal with.-=-
Then they need to subdue the demons, not spread out so there's more air to
fan the flames.
-=-Jayn will not have to spend the years I did discovering what
real unconditional love feels like, or have to guess how two adults who love
each other behave towards each other, despite our various shortcomings.-=-
That's because she is with two parents together.
The situation with children won't be the same way. Divorced childless
couples never have to interact EVER again if they don't want to. MAYBE funerals of
mutual friends. But parents have all kinds of child-related reasons to
interact. And the kids are faced with either shared custody or the almost total
loss of a parent.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/26/04 1:57:51 AM, crrbuddy@... writes:
<< Yet, isn't this the mentality that we've strived so hard to
overcome in unschooling -- that is, the labeling that so often
accompanies so-called "dysfunctions" of the times, liberally applied
to a given person or situation based on orthodox beliefs? >>
If we don't mention the second generation effects of alcoholism, then they
won't be there?
The effect of alcoholism on the relatives of alcoholics is not a "so-called
'dysfunction'." It's a life-ruining, soul-sucking hole.
ADD is a so-called "dysfunction."
-=-It's very
disheartening to me to see Irene reach out for help in the hopes of
finding a positive alternative to divorce, and end up with the
conclusion that it's basically over. -=-
You didn't get that from what I wrote.
There are ways for people to learn to detach from the effects of other
people's neglect and abuse, and al-Anon has been providing that free of charge for a
long time.
-=-Sandra, that reminds me of your article on the benefits of holding
on to your "treasures." If you've got the link handy, please share
it again.-=-
Your House as a Museum, I'm guessing. But I'll throw in another too:
http://sandradodd.com/museum
http://sandradodd.com/truck
Sandra
<< Yet, isn't this the mentality that we've strived so hard to
overcome in unschooling -- that is, the labeling that so often
accompanies so-called "dysfunctions" of the times, liberally applied
to a given person or situation based on orthodox beliefs? >>
If we don't mention the second generation effects of alcoholism, then they
won't be there?
The effect of alcoholism on the relatives of alcoholics is not a "so-called
'dysfunction'." It's a life-ruining, soul-sucking hole.
ADD is a so-called "dysfunction."
-=-It's very
disheartening to me to see Irene reach out for help in the hopes of
finding a positive alternative to divorce, and end up with the
conclusion that it's basically over. -=-
You didn't get that from what I wrote.
There are ways for people to learn to detach from the effects of other
people's neglect and abuse, and al-Anon has been providing that free of charge for a
long time.
-=-Sandra, that reminds me of your article on the benefits of holding
on to your "treasures." If you've got the link handy, please share
it again.-=-
Your House as a Museum, I'm guessing. But I'll throw in another too:
http://sandradodd.com/museum
http://sandradodd.com/truck
Sandra
Vesna
"Irene",
You -- and your children -- have a problem that goes well beyond the
issue of homeschooling. You describe this man as vindictive and
abusive. He insults and condemns his own children. Since you ask our
advice, I will give you this:
You have to step back and take a look at the bigger picture.
Homeschooling is the least of your worries.
1. YOU MUST SEEK PROFESSIONAL COUNSELING IMMEDIATELY. You are too
brainwashed by your tyrant husband to realize how bad and extreme your
situation really is. You need serious help to get a more realistic
view.
2. YOU MUST GET YOUR CHILDREN AWAY FROM THIS SOUL-CRUSHING ABUSER.
Whatever it takes. Before he destroys them and any hope they have left
for an emotionally healthy future. They are 12, 10, and 9? And they
have spent all their years with someone who has it in his heart to
talk to children, his own children, like this? Get out while there is
anything left to salvage.
If giving up homeschooling is what it takes for that to happen, then
do it. The price is well worth it. Homeschool vs. institutional
schooling, as valuable as it is, is a tiny issue compared to growing
up under the reign of an actively abusive parent. Your situation is
not normal.
Some other posters have mentioned healing your relationship with your
husband. Your situation is well beyond that. Perhaps it's because you
have been with him all your adult life and even before, but you do not
seem to be aware that you deserve much better than this. You are
entitled to a much better life. And your children deserve much better.
To sum up, I recommend you take your focus off homeschool and put it
on learning about abusive relationships and abuse survival. And start
planning your escape.
Love and light, and best wishes,
Vesna
You -- and your children -- have a problem that goes well beyond the
issue of homeschooling. You describe this man as vindictive and
abusive. He insults and condemns his own children. Since you ask our
advice, I will give you this:
You have to step back and take a look at the bigger picture.
Homeschooling is the least of your worries.
1. YOU MUST SEEK PROFESSIONAL COUNSELING IMMEDIATELY. You are too
brainwashed by your tyrant husband to realize how bad and extreme your
situation really is. You need serious help to get a more realistic
view.
2. YOU MUST GET YOUR CHILDREN AWAY FROM THIS SOUL-CRUSHING ABUSER.
Whatever it takes. Before he destroys them and any hope they have left
for an emotionally healthy future. They are 12, 10, and 9? And they
have spent all their years with someone who has it in his heart to
talk to children, his own children, like this? Get out while there is
anything left to salvage.
If giving up homeschooling is what it takes for that to happen, then
do it. The price is well worth it. Homeschool vs. institutional
schooling, as valuable as it is, is a tiny issue compared to growing
up under the reign of an actively abusive parent. Your situation is
not normal.
Some other posters have mentioned healing your relationship with your
husband. Your situation is well beyond that. Perhaps it's because you
have been with him all your adult life and even before, but you do not
seem to be aware that you deserve much better than this. You are
entitled to a much better life. And your children deserve much better.
To sum up, I recommend you take your focus off homeschool and put it
on learning about abusive relationships and abuse survival. And start
planning your escape.
Love and light, and best wishes,
Vesna
pam sorooshian
>We're only hearing your side, Irene. So I'm going to guess that there
> 1. YOU MUST SEEK PROFESSIONAL COUNSELING IMMEDIATELY. You are too
> brainwashed by your tyrant husband to realize how bad and extreme your
> situation really is. You need serious help to get a more realistic
> view.
are two sides, too, to all of this and your husband would have a list
of complaints, as well. Marriage counseling with the intent to make
your marriage work is what I'd recommend - for the sake of the
children. This means you don't go in already decided on divorce as the
only answer.
>You could only do that by leaving the state and hiding. Otherwise, he
> 2. YOU MUST GET YOUR CHILDREN AWAY FROM THIS SOUL-CRUSHING ABUSER.
is their father and will get part or even full custody and they will
not only still be with him, they'll be with him without you there as a
buffer.
> Whatever it takes. Before he destroys them and any hope they have leftIrene can leave - and leave her children with him - or she can fight in
> for an emotionally healthy future. They are 12, 10, and 9? And they
> have spent all their years with someone who has it in his heart to
> talk to children, his own children, like this? Get out while there is
> anything left to salvage.
court. The courts will not keep the children away from their own
father. I have a friend whose husband is a drug addict - he's had his
pharmacist license removed, he's been in court-ordered rehab multiple
times, the court KNOWS he is a drug addict - the court STILL gives him
half-custody, over and over. He moved away - so now she has a court
order to put her children on an airplane and send them to this man for
days and sometimes weeks at a time. Is that better? (Maybe it is for
the mom - but is it for the kids?)
>You have no way of knowing that. She hasn't tried. She went to one
> Some other posters have mentioned healing your relationship with your
> husband. Your situation is well beyond that.
counselor who gave her odd advice about cleaning more - that's not much
of an attempt.
> Perhaps it's because youYes - the whole family deserves better. Irene - only YOU can make the
> have been with him all your adult life and even before, but you do not
> seem to be aware that you deserve much better than this. You are
> entitled to a much better life. And your children deserve much better.
choice to divorce your husband, but YOU don't get the choice of whether
he sees or even takes the children, that will be up to a judge.
You cannot get the children away from him through divorce. HE will
still be their father, and he'll get part or even full custody and
they'll be with him without you there.
If he is abusing drugs or alcohol or beating the children or you - then
you may need to escape immediately. That might be a crisis. But in the
absence of an immediately crisis, it sounds like you've truly done very
little to work on your family - avoiding divorce and the consequent
splitting up the children between yourself and your husband would be
very worth putting in a lot of effort and energy.
And, Irene, if you're not able to find a way to live peacefully with
each other, perhaps you'll have achieved some improved level of
communication, at least, so that you'll have a wisp of a hope that you
can cooperate on raising the kids. Otherwise, you leaving him like this
is very likely to mean he'll fight you tooth and nail for custody - and
he'll at least partially win, if not completely. Yelling at kids,
criticizing them, being mean to them - none of those are going to be
held against him in court - they are standard normal parenting in this
culture. He'd have to be physically abusing them a lot and you'd have
to have physical evidence of that and STILL a court could send him to a
quickie anger management class and then give him access to the kids.
>I don't think anybody here can responsibly make this kind of
> To sum up, I recommend you take your focus off homeschool and put it
> on learning about abusive relationships and abuse survival. And start
> planning your escape.
recommendation, not knowing Irene, having read one post from her.
Irene - only you know everything about your situation - only you can
judge whether things will really be better if you go for a divorce. And
I think you're being realistic to consider that you can't keep him away
from the kids, even if YOU divorce him.
-pam
Elizabeth Hill
** Inside every husband is the little boy who could've used more
mothering, and
if you give them some they can become better men even now.**
Really, really true! Especially given some of the hideous parenting
advice that was given to the previous generation by "experts". Yick.
Betsy
mothering, and
if you give them some they can become better men even now.**
Really, really true! Especially given some of the hideous parenting
advice that was given to the previous generation by "experts". Yick.
Betsy
Sondra Carr
Ewww - I certainly don't want to be thinking of my husband as a little boy I
have to mother - how would that affect a decent sex-life. Not that I expect
my post to go through as I seem to be edited out for not professing the
party line.
-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth Hill [mailto:ecsamhill@...]
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 3:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: a difficult problem
** Inside every husband is the little boy who could've used more
mothering, and
if you give them some they can become better men even now.**
Really, really true! Especially given some of the hideous parenting
advice that was given to the previous generation by "experts". Yick.
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have to mother - how would that affect a decent sex-life. Not that I expect
my post to go through as I seem to be edited out for not professing the
party line.
-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth Hill [mailto:ecsamhill@...]
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 3:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: a difficult problem
** Inside every husband is the little boy who could've used more
mothering, and
if you give them some they can become better men even now.**
Really, really true! Especially given some of the hideous parenting
advice that was given to the previous generation by "experts". Yick.
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sondra Carr
Oh funny - so you let that one through but not the two I sent denouncing the
Dr. Laura approach and offering advise to the woman being abused. Sweet -
love the style. This group is a bit too heavy handed for me - when you won't
even allow through information for an abuse victim.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sondra Carr [mailto:sondracarr@...]
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 3:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: a difficult problem
Ewww - I certainly don't want to be thinking of my husband as a little boy I
have to mother - how would that affect a decent sex-life. Not that I expect
my post to go through as I seem to be edited out for not professing the
party line.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dr. Laura approach and offering advise to the woman being abused. Sweet -
love the style. This group is a bit too heavy handed for me - when you won't
even allow through information for an abuse victim.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sondra Carr [mailto:sondracarr@...]
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 3:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: a difficult problem
Ewww - I certainly don't want to be thinking of my husband as a little boy I
have to mother - how would that affect a decent sex-life. Not that I expect
my post to go through as I seem to be edited out for not professing the
party line.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/26/04 1:30:01 PM, sondracarr@... writes:
<< Ewww - I certainly don't want to be thinking of my husband as a little boy
I
have to mother - how would that affect a decent sex-life. Not that I expect
my post to go through as I seem to be edited out for not professing the
party line.
Sex life isn't everything.
The worst "sex life" advice I have ever, EVER heard is that breastfeeding is
wrong because breasts are for husbands to play with.
Inside every woman is a little girl, and some of them like to think they're
being kept from communicating on discussion lists, I guess.
Too many women expect their husbands to be solid oaks of maturity and
understanding while they themselves throw various kinds of immature fits and blame
their periods or various biological factors, but never expect husbands to have
any emotional needs. It's not fair or right.
Sandra
<< Ewww - I certainly don't want to be thinking of my husband as a little boy
I
have to mother - how would that affect a decent sex-life. Not that I expect
my post to go through as I seem to be edited out for not professing the
party line.
>>No one is "editted out."
Sex life isn't everything.
The worst "sex life" advice I have ever, EVER heard is that breastfeeding is
wrong because breasts are for husbands to play with.
Inside every woman is a little girl, and some of them like to think they're
being kept from communicating on discussion lists, I guess.
Too many women expect their husbands to be solid oaks of maturity and
understanding while they themselves throw various kinds of immature fits and blame
their periods or various biological factors, but never expect husbands to have
any emotional needs. It's not fair or right.
Sandra
[email protected]
Mothering is an act of nurturing -- as wives, we usually take care of many things that his mother used to take care of -- attention, cleaning, cooking, and so on. Husband's are usually rather simple -- they like to be taken care of, not just physically, but also emotionally -- and most are more than willing to admit that. I think that some wives just don't know that (I didn't until years into my marriage), or they just don't care. It doesn't mean literally "being their mother" -- but men needs love and attention like their mother used to give them (or should have given them, if mom didn't).
~~Brandie~~
http://www.scrapbookingwithbrandie.com
http://scrapblogging.blogspot.com
~~Brandie~~
http://www.scrapbookingwithbrandie.com
http://scrapblogging.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Sondra Carr
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 3:29 PM
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: a difficult problem
Ewww - I certainly don't want to be thinking of my husband as a little boy I
have to mother - how would that affect a decent sex-life.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/26/04 1:51:17 PM, sondracarr@... writes:
<< Oh funny - so you let that one through but not the two I sent denouncing
the
Dr. Laura approach and offering advise to the woman being abused. >>
How about going to yahoogroups and seeing whether your other posts are not
there.
There hasn't been a message rejected since the 14th.
If you think you sent something and it didn't show up, maybe it just didn't
go through from your end.
Sandra
<< Oh funny - so you let that one through but not the two I sent denouncing
the
Dr. Laura approach and offering advise to the woman being abused. >>
How about going to yahoogroups and seeing whether your other posts are not
there.
There hasn't been a message rejected since the 14th.
If you think you sent something and it didn't show up, maybe it just didn't
go through from your end.
Sandra
[email protected]
<< Irene - only you know everything about your situation - >>
I think a person who is blaming the other entirely hasn't yet tried to know
everything about the situation. If one thinks divorce will get the person
away from the other parent, she doesn't know everything about her situation.
Having a resource such as this list to help people gather ideas is wonderful,
but I think any suggestion to leave immediately is cruel and reckless.
Sandra
I think a person who is blaming the other entirely hasn't yet tried to know
everything about the situation. If one thinks divorce will get the person
away from the other parent, she doesn't know everything about her situation.
Having a resource such as this list to help people gather ideas is wonderful,
but I think any suggestion to leave immediately is cruel and reckless.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/26/04 12:08:30 PM, duonexus@... writes:
<< Some other posters have mentioned healing your relationship with your
husband. Your situation is well beyond that. >>
That's not a known truth.
Her situation may be beyond that, or it might not be.
If unschooling IS a priority, then there are ways for the mom and children to
help themselves get to a better place.
-=-Perhaps it's because you
have been with him all your adult life and even before, but you do not
seem to be aware that you deserve much better than this. You are
entitled to a much better life. -=-
"Entitled"?
There is the possibility of a better life, but those who say "GET OUT" are
rarely in a position to provide that better life. And murdering the ex spouse
only gets someone put in jail, so that's not a solution either. Ex spouses
can be worse than irritating current spouses in very MANY situations. Only
someone who has a better immediate spouse to provide and a nice house and such
should be making sweeping statements about "much better." And even if
miraculously there WERE all those things available, the mom and children could
probably use counselling or much self-examination to see how they can make
situations better with or without the dad.
Sandra
<< Some other posters have mentioned healing your relationship with your
husband. Your situation is well beyond that. >>
That's not a known truth.
Her situation may be beyond that, or it might not be.
If unschooling IS a priority, then there are ways for the mom and children to
help themselves get to a better place.
-=-Perhaps it's because you
have been with him all your adult life and even before, but you do not
seem to be aware that you deserve much better than this. You are
entitled to a much better life. -=-
"Entitled"?
There is the possibility of a better life, but those who say "GET OUT" are
rarely in a position to provide that better life. And murdering the ex spouse
only gets someone put in jail, so that's not a solution either. Ex spouses
can be worse than irritating current spouses in very MANY situations. Only
someone who has a better immediate spouse to provide and a nice house and such
should be making sweeping statements about "much better." And even if
miraculously there WERE all those things available, the mom and children could
probably use counselling or much self-examination to see how they can make
situations better with or without the dad.
Sandra