Ren Allen

"> Well the thing is, even if it is morally reprehensible
> to many of us, spanking, even with a switch or "rod",
> isn't illegal in *any* state, and doesn't fall under
> the legal category of abuse. "

Not true.
I realize I'm coming in a bit late to this conversation, but I can't
leave an innacuracy alone.:)
In the state of Alaska for example, anything that leaves a visible
mark is illegal. That information came from a licensed social worker
that lives there. I'm sure there are other states that have laws
against children being hit with sticks and such. I sure hope so anyway.

"When I insert the phrase 'hit your wife' doesn't it make your skin
crawl to
think about associating with such a person? Why is a child any less
deserving of equal protection?>>>>>>"

I agree with Sylvia, BUT, would you quit associating with the wife
just because she was being abused?

Profound influence can happen when one DOES associate with people that
don't necessarily treat their children with respect most of the time.
ON the other hand, I couldn't be around extreme negativity all the
time either. Life is too short.

" I had such a hard time believing that people in this
group of all places were justifying spanking and saying it wasn't all
that bad
even that using a small stick was no big deal."

I have read this conversation in it's entirety, and I can not find ONE
post condoning the hitting of children or justifying spanking on any
level.
Unschoolingbasics has been a voice of gentle parenting, utmost respect
for children and assisting others in finding their way along the
unschooling path since the day it started. We will continue to ensure
that this is a place for the unschooling philosophy and how it affects
ALL of life with our children.

When someone asks for advice, that means they want to hear other
opinions. If you come here with your mind made up, it might be harder
to sift through other opinions and find anything useful.

Please remember though, everyone here is volunteering their time and
energy to give advice and try to be helpful. I get a bit tetchy when I
read posts that say "I don't care what you say" or being negative
towards incredibly valuable voices like Deb L.

Assume that everyone here is trying their best to be helpful, that
they are giving of their time to try and make things BETTER for
children and families. If something doesn't work for you, that's ok.

My feelings run deep for many of the beautiful voices here and I'd
like to make sure they keep on posting their incredible advice and
being a voice of sanity in an insane society. Be good to them please.:)

Ren

Tina

>>Profound influence can happen when one DOES associate with people
that don't necessarily treat their children with respect most of the
time.>>

This is really more along my lines of thinking...not the "let's all
get along" thing that was interpreted from my post. Basically, what I
believe is that we are all in different places. We CANNOT do anything
other than what we know. AND, how do we learn anything new if we are
never exposed to new things AND different thinking people? Not to
mention the fact that in order to learn and grow we NEED TIME to
change. A lifetime of living in any way is NOT changed in an instant.

I have really enjoyed this "brain stretching" discussion...what a hot
topic it is!

Tina

[email protected]

***We CANNOT do anything
other than what we know. AND, how do we learn anything new if we are
never exposed to new things AND different thinking people?***

By choosing to be exposed to new things and different thinking people. It's a choice. Everybody knows that there are different ways of being/thinking/doing but not everybody chooses to seek them out.

My mother is very supportive of the way I've raised my children, despite having raised me and my siblings very differently. But she has a need to occasionally justify her past choices by saying she didn't "know better." But really, the reason that *I* know better is because I purposely *looked* for better... nobody handed anything to me. La Leche League didn't come knocking on my door, John Holt's books weren't placed in a basket on my doorstep, and unschooling message boards didn't lay down in my path, ya know?

I'm not an unschooler because I was lucky enough to be exposed to it. I'm an unschooler because I seek and I seek until I find what makes sense and what feels right in my heart and soul.
"I didn't know better" is a pretty lame excuse when it comes to parenting IMO. Forgivable but lame. ;-)

Patti

[email protected]

***"I didn't know better" is a pretty lame excuse when it comes to parenting IMO.? Forgivable but lame. ;-)***

I feel the need to add that I do have some regrets concerning my older two sons (12 and 10). Hey, I didn't know better!

Patti, who forgives herself




YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
?Visit your group "<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics">unschoolingbasics</a>" on the web.
? ?To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
?[email protected]
? ?Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Sylvia Toyama

I agree with Sylvia, BUT, would you quit associating with the wife
just because she was being abused?

****

Well, we're straying off-topic here, but whether I would give up the friendship depends on the situation. Does she come running for advice then not follow thru? Is it just about the drama, without any readiness to find a solution? I don't have the energy available to be involved in a running soap opera where the star never empowers herself, or keeps running back for more.

If she really wants out and needs help for a plan, then I'm there.

Of course, with a child it's different. I would want to be available to the child, but in a way that also protected my own children from unnecessary harm. It can be a hard line to walk.

I agree about the negativity -- after a while it drains me and I'm not able to be at my best for my own kids.

Sylvia


Mom to Will (20) Andy (9) and Dan (4.5)

The opposite of courage in our society is not cowardice, it is conformity -- Rollo May




---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<<John Holt's books weren't placed in a basket on my doorstep>>

But that was because something in your soul sent you on a quest for information. Something sparked you .....whether it was running into a person, a feeling, an idea.....something suggested to you that there are "other ways".

Some people are pretty natural seekers. When society says "this is how we do this", the natural seeker naturally says "why?".....that would be me.

Some people aren't. When society says "this is how we do this", it is one less thing to think about and the non-seeker says "ok".....that would be my husband. He isn't a bad guy. He just lives in a rather small world, somewhat disconnected to civilization at large.

I'm the kid who was questioning whether there was a God while still in elementary school, laying in bed at night trying to logically figure it out. To this day, dh says it simply doesn't cross his mind.

After 8 years of radical unschooling, he is a huge proponent of it. But if the schooling decisions had been left completely in his hands, the kids would have been in school all this time, simply because it wouldn't have crossed his mind to consider education from "outside the box".

Julie S.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tina

>>When society says "this is how we do this", it is one less thing
to think about and the non-seeker says "ok".....that would be my
husband.>>

That would be me as well...when I was younger anyways. Now, I
question everything it seems. :) Fortunately, I've learned to
trust my instinct a lot more. I still remember talking to a friend
when I was a young teen. He asked me if I liked such and such
music. I said I never heard of it. He asked why, and I said that
I'd never been exposed to it. He told me that was no excuse. I can
still remember the confusion in my mind. How was I supposed to know
about something that I'd never been exposed to? It never dawned on
me that there were different styles of music other than what was
played on the radio. So, I never searched out ANY new music, ever.

It was not until I had a very good friend that homeschooled that I
even knew it was an option. From there I researched extensively and
made the decision to homeschool my youngest. Through all that
extensive research it was YEARS before I discovered unschooling.
And, honestly I don't even remember *how* I came to know there was
such a style of living...

Tina

Angela S.

> "I didn't know better" is a pretty lame excuse when it comes to parenting
IMO.
> Forgivable but lame. ;-)

My mother has voiced that in the past, when it comes to raising her kids.
But I think it is a valid excuse, if there ever were one.

In her case, she vastly improved her parenting over her own parent's
parenting. She was thinking outside the box for her time. There are things
that she would change, I am sure, if she knew then what she knows now, but
even for a forward thinker of that time, there just wasn't' the information
so readily available to her generation that is available to ours. We are
very fortunate indeed to have the internet to aid us in our parenting.

I hope that my own children improve on my parenting. I think we do a pretty
darned good job but I am sure there will be things that they will learn
about child rearing that wasn't available to me. It isn't because I am not
searching and looking for things that will help me. I am doing the best I
know how with the information that I have.

Angela
game-enthusiast@...

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: jnjstau@...

Some people are pretty natural seekers. When society says "this is how
we do
this", the natural seeker naturally says "why?".....that would be me.

Some people aren't. When society says "this is how we do this", it is
one less
thing to think about and the non-seeker says "ok".....

-=-=-=-

Maybe. And I'm sure that many people just aren't as questioning as
others.

BUT...

I think that too much "natural seeking" is squashed by schools. I doubt
even your husband was that way as a toddler.

But then, I tend to be a school-basher and find answers *there* more
often than anywhere else.

~Kelly


Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org

Sylvia Toyama

Some people aren't. When society says "this is how we do this", it is one less thing to think about and the non-seeker says "ok".....that would be my husband.

****

Thanks for this explanation -- it really sums up my inlaws. A couple of weeks ago, my Mom and I were discussing the inlaws' approach to life's big questions (things she and I have always wondered about) and I just couldn't find the word to describe them. I know it's not that they're shallow (tho that was the best word I could come up with) or not intelligent. My Mom had called it a complete lack of curiousity, which neither of us can imagine. Thinking of them as non-seekers seems more accurate than 'shallow.'

I've never been able to stop the seeking questions that run thru my mind, and wondered how it is others don't have the same running commentary.

Sylvia


Mom to Will (20) Andy (9) and Dan (4.5)

The opposite of courage in our society is not cowardice, it is conformity -- Rollo May



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Sylvia Toyama <sylgt04@...>

I've never been able to stop the seeking questions that run thru my
mind, and
wondered how it is others don't have the same running commentary.

-=-=-

Schools are powerful. And some are more easily sqashed than others.

~Kelly


Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org

Sylvia Toyama

"I didn't know better" is a pretty lame excuse when it comes to parenting IMO.
> Forgivable but lame.

*****

I don't think it's lame at all. As Angela pointed out, we have more access to new ideas, examples and support from other parents thru the internet. We're able to get info that wouldn't have been available in the 70's (or even the late 80's, having a been a young mom then myself). Our mothers learned from their mothers, and from society at large.

It's also easy for me to forget that I have so much more power than my Mom ever had. I have legal rights she didn't have, more insight into people and situations. I was able to easily get a divorce when my first marriage sucked, she wasn't able to get out for 20 years. During my early days as a working Mom, I made a decent wage. When she was a young Mom, women made much less for the same workweek than men.

She was mothering in a virtual warzone with my Dad -- and I know we weren't the only household where that was true in that time. She might have heard of families where things were different, but for her that was a pipe dream at best. More likely, it was just another reminder of how powerless she was to effect change in her own life and those of her children.

In recent years -- say the last two, really -- she's softened in many ways. I realize, too, that much of her harshness in response is about her fears that she will have somehow failed us, and her awareness of how easy it is to fail one's children as a mother. She knows how high the stakes are (and just how unkind life can be), and she's seen us all suffer for the circumstances she wasn't able to change when we were young. I can see it breaks her heart. She's bitter at times, and I can understand why. Her life didn't turn out at all as she had hoped it would. She has also said she's very blessed -- her life plans didn't include children, and she can't imagine not being a Mom.

My point is that our mothers lived in a very different world than we do, than most of us can even conceive. My Mom did many things differently than I do, but above all we always knew she loved us. Somehow that told me the rest would work itself out, if only I kept trying. I 'got' that from watching her always try for us.

Sylvia


Mom to Will (20) Andy (9) and Dan (4.5)

The opposite of courage in our society is not cowardice, it is conformity -- Rollo May




---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> "I didn't know better" is a pretty lame excuse when it comes to parenting
IMO.
> Forgivable but lame. ;-)

***My mother has voiced that in the past, when it comes to raising her kids.
But I think it is a valid excuse, if there ever were one.***

My mother once lamented to me that at the time I was born there wasn't La Leche League, and homeschooling was unheard of.
But there *was* La Leche League -I believe it was founded in the fifties and was quite popular by the seventies- I know that some of my friends' mothers were involved in it during that time. And homeschooling *was* heard of. Some of the books that first convinced me to keep my kids out of school were published before I was born/school age. The information *was* there had my mom been a seeker of different ideas.

***We are
very fortunate indeed to have the internet to aid us in our parenting.***

Absolutely- it makes things *much* easier. But I didn't have internet access until well after I'd decided to homeschool. My resources at the the time was oldest was approaching school age were books, alternative publications, and likeminded people I met through parenting/homeschooling groups. When I had two toddlers I remember searching directories in the back of magazines like GWS to find contacts and attending local get-togethers to pick the other mothers' brains. :-)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that some people seek and some people don't, regardless of how marvelous the depth of the available resources are. Otherwise there would be a lot more people unschooling.

***I hope that my own children improve on my parenting. I think we do a pretty
darned good job but I am sure there will be things that they will learn
about child rearing that wasn't available to me.***

It's hard to imagine getting any better than respectful parenting and unschooling though, isn't it? What I hope for my children is that they don't fall as far short of their ideals as I tend to. Then again, they won't have the same rusty tapes playing in their brains that some of us need to overcome from our own childhoods.

Patti

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: patti.schmidt2@...


It's hard to imagine getting any better than respectful parenting and
unschooling though, isn't it? What I hope for my children is that they
don't
fall as far short of their ideals as I tend to. Then again, they won't
have the
same rusty tapes playing in their brains that some of us need to
overcome from
our own childhoods.

-=-=-=-

Right---they'll have better role models.

My parents did what their parents did who did what their parents did.
By shifting our parenting this far, we ensure that our kids won't have
as far to adjust---just a tweak or two rather than a whole paradigm
shift.

~Kelly


Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org

[email protected]

<<I think too much "natural seeking" is squashed in the schools>>

I have to agree with you there, Kelly.

My three youngest wanted to try school last year. They were in First and Kindergarten, had never been in a structured setting and are all quite verbal and natural seekers. The school initially suggested Special Education LOL. After spending time with the kids, the teachers changed their minds and thought the kids were quite bright. After spending time with the schools, the kids decided to come home. LOL

Julie S.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Krisula Moyer

>>I agree with Sylvia, BUT, would you quit associating with the wife
just because she was being abused?<<

FWIW We have a situation where I am close to some children who are abused
and have been taken from their home more than once. They are presently
awaiting placement in foster care - again. When they were home with their
mom I did continue my friendship with them but consciously limited my
children's exposure and association with them. My kids like them and play
with them but do not ever ask to see them - the other kids always do the
asking. My point being, I was able to befriend and assist these kids a bit
without throwing my kids into harms way. Oh, and when they did play
together it was always with me present, at our house or a park. I would
never leave my kids at their house.

Ren Allen

"Rue Kream's book
Parenting a Free Child is *excellent*!! (And she pokes her nose on
this list from time to time.) "

It IS an excellent book and Rue is actually a moderator here. She's
just busy, so we don't hear from her as often right now.:)

Ren, the evil twin
learninginfreedom.com

Misty

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> "Rue Kream's book
> Parenting a Free Child is *excellent*!! (And she pokes her nose on
> this list from time to time.) "
>
> It IS an excellent book and Rue is actually a moderator here. She's
> just busy, so we don't hear from her as often right now.:)
>


I'm enjoying reading her book now, but I looked all through the book
for an "about the author" type of thing. When I read "Unschooling
Handbook" I liked that I could skip to the back and find out about
the people whose input I was reading. I assume the answer is yes,
but is Rue one of those people who started unschooling from birth so
to speak, or one who found it later? I think it would be nice to
have a little bio info even for some of the posts I read here. It's
nice when people include in their signature line things like mother
to 5yo so-n-so etc.

As a parent of a toddler I'm always looking for input on unschooling
with a single child in the toddler-preschool age range. (and yes
I'm on the AU group too.) Sometimes I wonder if the response I'm
reading ever dealt with only having one child or didn't start
unschooling until they were 8 or whatever.

Misty
recent unschooler to Rachel 2.9

Rue Kream

>>I looked all through the book
for an "about the author" type of thing. When I read "Unschooling
Handbook" I liked that I could skip to the back and find out about
the people whose input I was reading. I assume the answer is yes,
but is Rue one of those people who started unschooling from birth so
to speak, or one who found it later?

**Hi Misty - Dagny went to kindergarten because we didn't know homeschooling
was an option. She had never been in daycare or preschool. She'll be 14 in
a few months, so she's been unschooling for 8 years. Rowan's 9 1/2 now and
has never been to school. Our parenting has always been based on respect
and trust, although when Dagny was little we did our share of messing up
while figuring out how to translate the principles we believed in into day
to day life with a toddler.

I'm not sure what other 'about the author' info you'd be interested in, but
feel free to ask anything you'd like to know. ~Rue


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Rue-

I actully just finished reading your book today. It was wondeful. It
really helped me to see that i am doing things right. The format is very easy
to follow and the questions that you choose to answer were perfect. Thank
you so much for taking the time to put it all down. I loved every min of it.

~Alyssa

In a message dated 8/13/2006 5:38:09 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
skreams@... writes:

**Hi Misty - Dagny went to kindergarten because we didn't know homeschooling
was an option. She had never been in daycare or preschool. She'll be 14 in
a few months, so she's been unschooling for 8 years. Rowan's 9 1/2 now and
has never been to school. Our parenting has always been based on respect
and trust, although when Dagny was little we did our share of messing up
while figuring out how to translate the principles we believed in into day
to day life with a toddler.

I'm not sure what other 'about the author' info you'd be interested in, but
feel free to ask anything you'd like to know. ~Rue




_http://www.d-listproductions.com_ (http://www.d-listproductions.com/)


"Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and
dance like you do when nobody's watching."












[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lesa ODaniel

Alyssa wrote:
<< I actully just finished reading your book today. It was wondeful.
It
really helped me to see that i am doing things right. The format is very
easy
to follow and the questions that you choose to answer were perfect. Thank
you so much for taking the time to put it all down. I loved every min of
it.>>


**I also loved the book and can't recommend it enough to people. It was so
easy to read in that format. I gave it to my husband and he devoured it. I
just knew it was written in such a way that he would take to it. Thanks for
the book.

**I am really interested in some books from unschooled kids' perspectives
(older kids who have lived this sort of life). I wonder if there are any out
there or if there are any people currently working on a project like this
with their children...


Lesa O'Daniel, AAHCC
Instructor, Bradley Method� of Natural Childbirth
323-541-5515
http://www.bradleybirth.com/ndweb.asp?ID=O123&Count=N

_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

Pamela Sorooshian

On Aug 13, 2006, at 5:34 PM, Lesa ODaniel wrote:

>
> **I am really interested in some books from unschooled kids'
> perspectives
> (older kids who have lived this sort of life). I wonder if there
> are any out
> there or if there are any people currently working on a project
> like this
> with their children...


Rosie (15) is working on a book about unschooling. Slowly. No
promises about how soon she'll be ready to publish. She does have a
little website that might be interesting, though:

<http://homepage.mac.com/pamsoroosh/unschoolingrose/index.html>


-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cheryl

That's very neat!

C

********

> Rosie (15) is working on a book about unschooling. Slowly. No
> promises about how soon she'll be ready to publish. She does have a
>little website that might be interesting, though:

<<http://homepage.mac.com/pamsoroosh/unschoolingrose/index.html>>

-pam


"Keep knocking and the joy inside will eventually open a window and look to
see who's there."
- Jalal Al-Din Rumi, a 13th century Sufi poet & mystic