parenting question
cindylevesque
I have something I've been trying to muddle my way through for the
past couple of months. A couple of months ago on another homeschool
list the issue of spankings came up (needless to say it's not an
unschooling group)and from these post I found out the mother of my
fourteen year old's friend does indeed spank and even has used sticks
on her children. She believes the bible gives her this right. You
know the whole spare the rod spoil the child philosphy to justify
child abuse. We kind of got into it because that totally goes
against anything I believe in and I'm really scared for these
children. I tried to reason nicely with her and others that have
this philosphy, but they aren't reasonable when they feel it's their
God given duty to beat their children. I, also, pointed out using a
stick on the child is considered child abuse by the State. This
person turned around and now says that she doesn't even spank her
children. I think I scared her--not my intent. Now I think she'll
hide it and the children might even be more abused.
My child and this other child are still friends. I have tried to
have him over numerous times since the discussion, but they always
decline. They have however invited my child over, but I'm not
feeling too comfortable with this idea. Am I being overprotective by
only wanting the child to come to my house? I know some of the issue
is because I was physically and mentally abused as a child. The
worst part of the abuse was seeing my brother and sister abused. I
would have taken the beaten for them rather than see it happen. I
just don't want my child to see someone he cares about beat. They
proably won't do it in front on him, but sometimes people lose
control even when others are around. I don't feel comfortable having
my child with people I cannot trust (she says one thing when she
thinks there is support for it and quite another when she thinks she
might be in trouble).
Any advice would be welcomed.
Thanks,
Cindy
past couple of months. A couple of months ago on another homeschool
list the issue of spankings came up (needless to say it's not an
unschooling group)and from these post I found out the mother of my
fourteen year old's friend does indeed spank and even has used sticks
on her children. She believes the bible gives her this right. You
know the whole spare the rod spoil the child philosphy to justify
child abuse. We kind of got into it because that totally goes
against anything I believe in and I'm really scared for these
children. I tried to reason nicely with her and others that have
this philosphy, but they aren't reasonable when they feel it's their
God given duty to beat their children. I, also, pointed out using a
stick on the child is considered child abuse by the State. This
person turned around and now says that she doesn't even spank her
children. I think I scared her--not my intent. Now I think she'll
hide it and the children might even be more abused.
My child and this other child are still friends. I have tried to
have him over numerous times since the discussion, but they always
decline. They have however invited my child over, but I'm not
feeling too comfortable with this idea. Am I being overprotective by
only wanting the child to come to my house? I know some of the issue
is because I was physically and mentally abused as a child. The
worst part of the abuse was seeing my brother and sister abused. I
would have taken the beaten for them rather than see it happen. I
just don't want my child to see someone he cares about beat. They
proably won't do it in front on him, but sometimes people lose
control even when others are around. I don't feel comfortable having
my child with people I cannot trust (she says one thing when she
thinks there is support for it and quite another when she thinks she
might be in trouble).
Any advice would be welcomed.
Thanks,
Cindy
camden
Hi Cindy,
We have had a similar situation, the difference was their inablility to control their drinking & gun issues. My oldest son (now 24) had a good friend in h.s. and went to his house to play alot until.............. I found the dad was not just having a beer after work but driving home drunk and drinking more when he got home. I also found out he kept a loaded shot gun next to his bed. Well you can bet the moment I found these well kept "secrets" my son wasnt allowed over there anymore. His friend was welcome at my home anytime day or night. Once I explained the safety reasons to my son he understood and made a point of having him over here more.
About a month later his friend came over and said guess what "mom" ? my dad isnt drinking at home anymore. Well the thing that got me was "at home" which led me to believe he was still drinking somewhere else. But all in all, my sons safety came first & I did what I could to give his friend a safe haven to escape to.
I dont blame you for putting your childs safety first and foremost. Hopefully the other family will see there are other ways of dealing with issues. Don't give up, hopefully they'll come around and you & your childs presence will be a good influence on them.
Good luck
Carol
We have had a similar situation, the difference was their inablility to control their drinking & gun issues. My oldest son (now 24) had a good friend in h.s. and went to his house to play alot until.............. I found the dad was not just having a beer after work but driving home drunk and drinking more when he got home. I also found out he kept a loaded shot gun next to his bed. Well you can bet the moment I found these well kept "secrets" my son wasnt allowed over there anymore. His friend was welcome at my home anytime day or night. Once I explained the safety reasons to my son he understood and made a point of having him over here more.
About a month later his friend came over and said guess what "mom" ? my dad isnt drinking at home anymore. Well the thing that got me was "at home" which led me to believe he was still drinking somewhere else. But all in all, my sons safety came first & I did what I could to give his friend a safe haven to escape to.
I dont blame you for putting your childs safety first and foremost. Hopefully the other family will see there are other ways of dealing with issues. Don't give up, hopefully they'll come around and you & your childs presence will be a good influence on them.
Good luck
Carol
----- Original Message -----
From: cindylevesque
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 9:45 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] parenting question
I have something I've been trying to muddle my way through for the
past couple of months. A couple of months ago on another homeschool
list the issue of spankings came up (needless to say it's not an
unschooling group)and from these post I found out the mother of my
fourteen year old's friend does indeed spank and even has used sticks
on her children. She believes the bible gives her this right. You
know the whole spare the rod spoil the child philosphy to justify
child abuse. We kind of got into it because that totally goes
against anything I believe in and I'm really scared for these
children. I tried to reason nicely with her and others that have
this philosphy, but they aren't reasonable when they feel it's their
God given duty to beat their children. I, also, pointed out using a
stick on the child is considered child abuse by the State. This
person turned around and now says that she doesn't even spank her
children. I think I scared her--not my intent. Now I think she'll
hide it and the children might even be more abused.
My child and this other child are still friends. I have tried to
have him over numerous times since the discussion, but they always
decline. They have however invited my child over, but I'm not
feeling too comfortable with this idea. Am I being overprotective by
only wanting the child to come to my house? I know some of the issue
is because I was physically and mentally abused as a child. The
worst part of the abuse was seeing my brother and sister abused. I
would have taken the beaten for them rather than see it happen. I
just don't want my child to see someone he cares about beat. They
proably won't do it in front on him, but sometimes people lose
control even when others are around. I don't feel comfortable having
my child with people I cannot trust (she says one thing when she
thinks there is support for it and quite another when she thinks she
might be in trouble).
Any advice would be welcomed.
Thanks,
Cindy
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/18/2005 9:47:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Garcinethlog@... writes:
She believes the bible gives her this right. You
know the whole spare the rod spoil the child philosphy to justify
child abuse.
***************
I understand, although haven't checked it out myself, that this saying is
not even in the bible. And the Rod was used by shepherds to protect the sheep
from predators.....they did not beat the sheep with them!
I know this isn't the point. I feel for you and your child. Why won't she
let your child visit you? Have you discussed this with her? Maybe if you
knew why, you could work that out.
I agree with you about not letting your child visit her house. I don't know
the particulars of your situation, but would it work out that you can either
meet in a neutral place or that you can accompany your child to her house?
Tough situation.
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Garcinethlog@... writes:
She believes the bible gives her this right. You
know the whole spare the rod spoil the child philosphy to justify
child abuse.
***************
I understand, although haven't checked it out myself, that this saying is
not even in the bible. And the Rod was used by shepherds to protect the sheep
from predators.....they did not beat the sheep with them!
I know this isn't the point. I feel for you and your child. Why won't she
let your child visit you? Have you discussed this with her? Maybe if you
knew why, you could work that out.
I agree with you about not letting your child visit her house. I don't know
the particulars of your situation, but would it work out that you can either
meet in a neutral place or that you can accompany your child to her house?
Tough situation.
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Daniel MacIntyre
Proverbs 13:24 "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves
him is careful to discipline him."
and
Proverbs 23:13-14 "Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou
strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with
the rod, and deliver his soul from hell."
to further confuse things, check out this site:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin13.htm
It has three interpretations of what a rod is - all mutually exclusive
- take your choice.
him is careful to discipline him."
and
Proverbs 23:13-14 "Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou
strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with
the rod, and deliver his soul from hell."
to further confuse things, check out this site:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin13.htm
It has three interpretations of what a rod is - all mutually exclusive
- take your choice.
On 8/18/05, Leslie530@... <Leslie530@...> wrote:
>
> In a message dated 8/18/2005 9:47:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> Garcinethlog@... writes:
>
> She believes the bible gives her this right. You
> know the whole spare the rod spoil the child philosphy to justify
> child abuse.
>
>
> ***************
>
> I understand, although haven't checked it out myself, that this saying is
> not even in the bible. And the Rod was used by shepherds to protect the sheep
> from predators.....they did not beat the sheep with them!
>
> I know this isn't the point. I feel for you and your child. Why won't she
> let your child visit you? Have you discussed this with her? Maybe if you
> knew why, you could work that out.
>
> I agree with you about not letting your child visit her house. I don't know
> the particulars of your situation, but would it work out that you can either
> meet in a neutral place or that you can accompany your child to her house?
>
> Tough situation.
>
> Leslie in SC
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Daniel
(Amy is doing a half marathon for Team in Training
Anyone who wants to help can do so by going to:
http://www.active.com/donate/fundraise/tntgmoAMacint )
Sunday Cote
(Don't know if this helps Cindy's current situation, but it might be
helpful for others who find themselves in this debate.)
This is a very insightful article dealing with Bible Quotes and
Discipline from Chick Moorman and Thomas Haller's parent newsletter at
www.chickmoorman.com <http://www.chickmoorman.com/> .
The first part is a question from one of their readers, followed by
Thomas's comments:
-----------
Dear Thomas,
I know you have a strong Christian background, having heard you preach a
few years ago. I have a question for you.
Like you and Chick, I do not believe in spanking either. But many of my
other Christian friends keep telling me about "sparing the rod and
spoiling the child." Surely God doesn't want us to hit our children,
does He? I believe in a God of love. What do you make of all this?
Thanks in advance,
Beth Jerry
Saginaw, MI
Dear Beth, Lori, Unsigned, and others,
As you know, in our last parenting newsletter, Chick and I shared our
beliefs on spanking in the article, "This Is Going to Hurt Me More Than
It Is Going to Hurt You." In it, we challenged the readers to examine a
widely accepted view of spanking from a different perspective. We
challenged conventional wisdom and asked parents to consider how hitting
children as a form of discipline may actually be hurting the parent in
ways they were previously unaware of.
We greatly appreciate your willingness to share your comments with us as
you examine your own parenting style and are challenged by different
views on raising responsible, caring, confident children. While it is
not our desire to tell you how to parent your children, we do want to
provide readers with techniques and strategies for raising children with
grace, integrity, and love.
Since you asked, my personal thoughts about the Biblical issue follow.
As an ordained minister I spent 8 years learning the Hebrew and Greek
language so as to study the Bible in its original language. Since that
time, almost 20 years ago, I have spent many laboring hours preparing
sermons and writing Bible studies on topics of marriage, love, money,
miracles, gifts of the Spirit, parenting, and most importantly the Grace
of God as seen through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It was with
great respect for the scriptures that I undertook a call to raise the
consciousness of parents throughout the world. It is with this same
respect and conviction that I offer a look at a Biblical perspective on
spanking.
Christian parents frequently seek the Bible in their effort to raise
godly children. They believe that there is a biblical mandate to spank
and they fear that if they don't spank, they will commit the sin of
losing control of their child. They believe that God has commended them
to spank and they take "spare the rod and spoil the child" literally. In
doing so they misunderstand the concept of the rod. The following are
the biblical verses which have caused the greatest confusion:
"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to
discipline him." (Proverbs 13:24)
"Folly is bound up in the heart of a child. But the rod of discipline
will drive it far from him." (Proverbs 22:15)
"Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod
he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death."
(Proverbs 23:13-14)
"The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to itself
disgraces his mother." (Proverbs 29:15)
At first glance these verses seem to be in strong support of the use of
corporal punishment. But are they really? A closer examination of the
Hebrew word for "rod" (shebet) sheds more light on the subject. In the
Hebrew dictionary "rod" has various meanings: a stick for walking,
writing, fighting, ruling, and punishment. The word "shebet" is most
frequently used when referring to shepherds who are tending their
flocks. The shepherds used the stick to fight off predators and to
gently guide wandering sheep, not strike them for being out of line.
The verses that contain this material were written in poetic form.
Writers of poetry typically use familiar words of the day to represent
concepts and create imagery of what they are writing about. The "rod"
can as easily be interpreted as a gentle guide as it can a stick for
hitting children.
The image that I believe we are to extract from these verses in Proverbs
is one of creating a culture of accountability in our families. The
point that God is making here is that we as parents are to hold our
children accountable for their choices and actions. That is His desire.
There are many ways to hold a child accountable, and corporal punishment
(spanking) does not have to be one of them.
Reread the passages above and replace the references to punishment and
the use of the rod with the word "accountability" and notice what
happens.
For example:
Proverbs 13:24 would read, "He who spares accountability hates his son,
but he who loves him is careful to discipline him."
Proverbs 22:15 would read, "Folly is bound up in the heart of a child.
But holding him accountable will drive it far from him."
Proverbs 23:13-14 would read, "Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you create a culture of accountability he will not die. Create
accountability and save his soul from death."
Proverbs 29:15 would read, "The culture of accountability imparts
wisdom, but a child left to itself disgraces his mother."
As Christians, we believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God.
Yet some Christians hold fast to interpreting the "rod" in the Proverbs
passages as a mandate to spank. They interpret the passages written many
years ago in the language of the time with today's words and context.
They take the passages literally, staunchly claiming that that's what
the Bible says.
But what about these passages?
"Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death."
(Exodus 21:15)
"If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has
cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head."
(Leviticus 20:9)
Almost every parent would admit that their child has said, "I hate you,"
or "You're not the boss of me," at one time or another. But no one
argues that their child should be put to death in these cases.
No, children don't need to be put to death and they don't need to be
spanked either. They do need to be held accountable for their actions
and choices, however. The Bible simply does not support spanking. It
supports holding children accountable. It says, "Train a child in the
way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it."
(Proverbs 22:6) "Training" does not mean spanking, hitting, or any other
form of corporal punishment.
Chick and I believe that creating a culture of accountability is the
most loving thing you can do for your children. We believe in holding
children accountable within a model that Jesus gave us. In the New
Testament Jesus modified the Old Testament by providing us with a model
of gentleness and love. He changed the eye-for-an-eye approach and
called for turning the other cheek and forgiving seven times seventy.
Consider these inspired words of God in your parenting:
"Fathers do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the
training and instruction of the Lord." (Ephesians 6:4)
"Fathers do not embitter your children, or they will become
discouraged." (Colossians 3:21)
"What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love with a
gentle spirit?" (Corinthians 4:21).
Become an enlightened parent, one who is moved and inspired by the word
of God that calls for grace, gentleness, forgiveness, and love in all
that you do. Challenge yourself to create a Christ-like approach to
parenting. Seek strategies and techniques that enable you to parent to
the soul of your child.
Refrain from using the Bible as an excuse to spank. Use it instead to
help you create a higher vision of yourself as a parent and to become
the parent you always wanted to be.
Warmest regards,
Thomas Haller
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
helpful for others who find themselves in this debate.)
This is a very insightful article dealing with Bible Quotes and
Discipline from Chick Moorman and Thomas Haller's parent newsletter at
www.chickmoorman.com <http://www.chickmoorman.com/> .
The first part is a question from one of their readers, followed by
Thomas's comments:
-----------
Dear Thomas,
I know you have a strong Christian background, having heard you preach a
few years ago. I have a question for you.
Like you and Chick, I do not believe in spanking either. But many of my
other Christian friends keep telling me about "sparing the rod and
spoiling the child." Surely God doesn't want us to hit our children,
does He? I believe in a God of love. What do you make of all this?
Thanks in advance,
Beth Jerry
Saginaw, MI
Dear Beth, Lori, Unsigned, and others,
As you know, in our last parenting newsletter, Chick and I shared our
beliefs on spanking in the article, "This Is Going to Hurt Me More Than
It Is Going to Hurt You." In it, we challenged the readers to examine a
widely accepted view of spanking from a different perspective. We
challenged conventional wisdom and asked parents to consider how hitting
children as a form of discipline may actually be hurting the parent in
ways they were previously unaware of.
We greatly appreciate your willingness to share your comments with us as
you examine your own parenting style and are challenged by different
views on raising responsible, caring, confident children. While it is
not our desire to tell you how to parent your children, we do want to
provide readers with techniques and strategies for raising children with
grace, integrity, and love.
Since you asked, my personal thoughts about the Biblical issue follow.
As an ordained minister I spent 8 years learning the Hebrew and Greek
language so as to study the Bible in its original language. Since that
time, almost 20 years ago, I have spent many laboring hours preparing
sermons and writing Bible studies on topics of marriage, love, money,
miracles, gifts of the Spirit, parenting, and most importantly the Grace
of God as seen through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It was with
great respect for the scriptures that I undertook a call to raise the
consciousness of parents throughout the world. It is with this same
respect and conviction that I offer a look at a Biblical perspective on
spanking.
Christian parents frequently seek the Bible in their effort to raise
godly children. They believe that there is a biblical mandate to spank
and they fear that if they don't spank, they will commit the sin of
losing control of their child. They believe that God has commended them
to spank and they take "spare the rod and spoil the child" literally. In
doing so they misunderstand the concept of the rod. The following are
the biblical verses which have caused the greatest confusion:
"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to
discipline him." (Proverbs 13:24)
"Folly is bound up in the heart of a child. But the rod of discipline
will drive it far from him." (Proverbs 22:15)
"Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod
he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death."
(Proverbs 23:13-14)
"The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to itself
disgraces his mother." (Proverbs 29:15)
At first glance these verses seem to be in strong support of the use of
corporal punishment. But are they really? A closer examination of the
Hebrew word for "rod" (shebet) sheds more light on the subject. In the
Hebrew dictionary "rod" has various meanings: a stick for walking,
writing, fighting, ruling, and punishment. The word "shebet" is most
frequently used when referring to shepherds who are tending their
flocks. The shepherds used the stick to fight off predators and to
gently guide wandering sheep, not strike them for being out of line.
The verses that contain this material were written in poetic form.
Writers of poetry typically use familiar words of the day to represent
concepts and create imagery of what they are writing about. The "rod"
can as easily be interpreted as a gentle guide as it can a stick for
hitting children.
The image that I believe we are to extract from these verses in Proverbs
is one of creating a culture of accountability in our families. The
point that God is making here is that we as parents are to hold our
children accountable for their choices and actions. That is His desire.
There are many ways to hold a child accountable, and corporal punishment
(spanking) does not have to be one of them.
Reread the passages above and replace the references to punishment and
the use of the rod with the word "accountability" and notice what
happens.
For example:
Proverbs 13:24 would read, "He who spares accountability hates his son,
but he who loves him is careful to discipline him."
Proverbs 22:15 would read, "Folly is bound up in the heart of a child.
But holding him accountable will drive it far from him."
Proverbs 23:13-14 would read, "Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you create a culture of accountability he will not die. Create
accountability and save his soul from death."
Proverbs 29:15 would read, "The culture of accountability imparts
wisdom, but a child left to itself disgraces his mother."
As Christians, we believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God.
Yet some Christians hold fast to interpreting the "rod" in the Proverbs
passages as a mandate to spank. They interpret the passages written many
years ago in the language of the time with today's words and context.
They take the passages literally, staunchly claiming that that's what
the Bible says.
But what about these passages?
"Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death."
(Exodus 21:15)
"If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has
cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head."
(Leviticus 20:9)
Almost every parent would admit that their child has said, "I hate you,"
or "You're not the boss of me," at one time or another. But no one
argues that their child should be put to death in these cases.
No, children don't need to be put to death and they don't need to be
spanked either. They do need to be held accountable for their actions
and choices, however. The Bible simply does not support spanking. It
supports holding children accountable. It says, "Train a child in the
way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it."
(Proverbs 22:6) "Training" does not mean spanking, hitting, or any other
form of corporal punishment.
Chick and I believe that creating a culture of accountability is the
most loving thing you can do for your children. We believe in holding
children accountable within a model that Jesus gave us. In the New
Testament Jesus modified the Old Testament by providing us with a model
of gentleness and love. He changed the eye-for-an-eye approach and
called for turning the other cheek and forgiving seven times seventy.
Consider these inspired words of God in your parenting:
"Fathers do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the
training and instruction of the Lord." (Ephesians 6:4)
"Fathers do not embitter your children, or they will become
discouraged." (Colossians 3:21)
"What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love with a
gentle spirit?" (Corinthians 4:21).
Become an enlightened parent, one who is moved and inspired by the word
of God that calls for grace, gentleness, forgiveness, and love in all
that you do. Challenge yourself to create a Christ-like approach to
parenting. Seek strategies and techniques that enable you to parent to
the soul of your child.
Refrain from using the Bible as an excuse to spank. Use it instead to
help you create a higher vision of yourself as a parent and to become
the parent you always wanted to be.
Warmest regards,
Thomas Haller
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I would talk with my 14yo about my concerns, any concerns they might have, how things are handled, etc., then I would let my 14yo make up their own mind.
Julie S.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie S.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I sent the question to an unschooling mom on another list. She is a member
of an evangelical church and does a great job of balancing her religious
beliefs with unschooling-style parenting. She gives great advise to those that
are dealing with these sometimes conflicting ideas.
Here are her thoughts....
Well the thing is, even if it is morally reprehensible
to many of us, spanking, even with a switch or "rod",
isn't illegal in *any* state, and doesn't fall under
the legal category of abuse. It is even still legal
in 22 states for school officials (principals,
teachers, etc.) to paddle students.
For the record, I used to spank my kids, and now
firmly believe that spanking is useless as a form of
discipline and is totally wrong, and it was
discussions on unschooling.com and other unschooling
lists that helped me see it for what it was...a sorry
attempt to make my children conform to my needs of the
moment or to assuage my own embarrassment at their
"unacceptable" behavior, and need for approval from
other parents that I was "training" my children.
I honestly don't think she needs to worry about the
safety of her 14yo. A 14yo should be able to
understand that if he witnesses something that makes
him uncomfortable in their home, he can come home and
talk to his mother or father about it. He should also
understand that if anyone ever tried to harm him
physically, he is legally allowed to defend himself,
so I wouldn't worry about those people spanking him!
As always, our children are going to interact with
people who think and act differently than we do, and
it is through discussing this with them and helping
them to understand and process what they see and hear
and do that they will form their own view of the
world. So, lots of discussions with him, and then at
14 I think he is old enough to decide whether or not
he wants to hang out at their home.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of an evangelical church and does a great job of balancing her religious
beliefs with unschooling-style parenting. She gives great advise to those that
are dealing with these sometimes conflicting ideas.
Here are her thoughts....
Well the thing is, even if it is morally reprehensible
to many of us, spanking, even with a switch or "rod",
isn't illegal in *any* state, and doesn't fall under
the legal category of abuse. It is even still legal
in 22 states for school officials (principals,
teachers, etc.) to paddle students.
For the record, I used to spank my kids, and now
firmly believe that spanking is useless as a form of
discipline and is totally wrong, and it was
discussions on unschooling.com and other unschooling
lists that helped me see it for what it was...a sorry
attempt to make my children conform to my needs of the
moment or to assuage my own embarrassment at their
"unacceptable" behavior, and need for approval from
other parents that I was "training" my children.
I honestly don't think she needs to worry about the
safety of her 14yo. A 14yo should be able to
understand that if he witnesses something that makes
him uncomfortable in their home, he can come home and
talk to his mother or father about it. He should also
understand that if anyone ever tried to harm him
physically, he is legally allowed to defend himself,
so I wouldn't worry about those people spanking him!
As always, our children are going to interact with
people who think and act differently than we do, and
it is through discussing this with them and helping
them to understand and process what they see and hear
and do that they will form their own view of the
world. So, lots of discussions with him, and then at
14 I think he is old enough to decide whether or not
he wants to hang out at their home.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/18/05 11:05:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sundaycote@... writes:
This is exactly one of the reasoning points I had with the homeschooling
group and this mother in particular and they came back with all kinds of stuff
from Dr. Dobson and that I was twisting scripture. Like I said they were not in
the least bit willing to be reasonable.
Cindy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sundaycote@... writes:
> The shepherds used the stick to fight off predators and toSunday:
> gently guide wandering sheep, not strike them for being out of line.
> The verses that contain this material were written in poetic form.
> Writers of poetry typically use familiar words of the day to represent
> concepts and create imagery of what they are writing about. The "rod"
> can as easily be interpreted as a gentle guide as it can a stick for
> hitting children.
>
This is exactly one of the reasoning points I had with the homeschooling
group and this mother in particular and they came back with all kinds of stuff
from Dr. Dobson and that I was twisting scripture. Like I said they were not in
the least bit willing to be reasonable.
Cindy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Julie:
I have spoke with Ethan and of course he wants to be able to hang out with
his friend. I want him to be able to have him hang out with his friend. It's
not his friend that I have a problem with. It's that I feel it's not safe for
him mentally or physically at this household. If you've never seen someone
abused than you don't know how horrible it is to witness such a crime. I've
been abused and watched ones I love be abused. I have to say it was much worse
witnessing abuse than receiving it. I just don't want him to be subject to
such an awful experience. It changes you forever.
I did appreciate on of the posters suggestions of meeting some place where
everyone would feel comfortable. I think that might be a workable solution for
all of us.
Cindy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have spoke with Ethan and of course he wants to be able to hang out with
his friend. I want him to be able to have him hang out with his friend. It's
not his friend that I have a problem with. It's that I feel it's not safe for
him mentally or physically at this household. If you've never seen someone
abused than you don't know how horrible it is to witness such a crime. I've
been abused and watched ones I love be abused. I have to say it was much worse
witnessing abuse than receiving it. I just don't want him to be subject to
such an awful experience. It changes you forever.
I did appreciate on of the posters suggestions of meeting some place where
everyone would feel comfortable. I think that might be a workable solution for
all of us.
Cindy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<< My child and this other child are still friends. I have tried to
have him over numerous times since the discussion, but they always
decline. They have however invited my child over, but I'm not
feeling too comfortable with this idea. >>>>>
I have read some replies and evidently people know that your ds is 14,
although that is not mentioned here. I think that age/maturity does make a
difference.
My dd is 5.5 and I don't let her go to our neighbors home, because of the
way they are there which includes endless time outing, shouting, lack of
empathy for the kids' various feelings, ear grabbing, and an atmosphere of
constant competitive conflict. The two of them compete for everyone's
attention, including Jayn's. It is awful just to be outside by the pool with
them let alone in a small room playing. Plus the girl has a history of
attempting to touch Jayn's private parts, so I feel no compunction
whatsoever in just not letting her go there, but having the kids visit here
- one at a time.
I also don't trust that the kids would freely allow Jayn to leave if she
became uncomfortable for any reason.
I have another thought about this, which would apply to any aged child.
Beyond the atmosphere of coercion and the likely controls on behavior, my
concern would be the likelihood of attempts to witness to or "save" your ds.
That may be why they persist in inviting him over to their home. I don't
want people witnessing to Jayn at this point. I would have a hard time
leaving her in such a home.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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have him over numerous times since the discussion, but they always
decline. They have however invited my child over, but I'm not
feeling too comfortable with this idea. >>>>>
I have read some replies and evidently people know that your ds is 14,
although that is not mentioned here. I think that age/maturity does make a
difference.
My dd is 5.5 and I don't let her go to our neighbors home, because of the
way they are there which includes endless time outing, shouting, lack of
empathy for the kids' various feelings, ear grabbing, and an atmosphere of
constant competitive conflict. The two of them compete for everyone's
attention, including Jayn's. It is awful just to be outside by the pool with
them let alone in a small room playing. Plus the girl has a history of
attempting to touch Jayn's private parts, so I feel no compunction
whatsoever in just not letting her go there, but having the kids visit here
- one at a time.
I also don't trust that the kids would freely allow Jayn to leave if she
became uncomfortable for any reason.
I have another thought about this, which would apply to any aged child.
Beyond the atmosphere of coercion and the likely controls on behavior, my
concern would be the likelihood of attempts to witness to or "save" your ds.
That may be why they persist in inviting him over to their home. I don't
want people witnessing to Jayn at this point. I would have a hard time
leaving her in such a home.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/77 - Release Date: 8/18/2005
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/18/05 3:08:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Leslie530@... writes:
few years back and the subject of spanking came up. At least in the State of
Maine, this pyschologist says that DHS views anything other than an open palm
on the bottom to be considered as child abuse. I would like to see where she
got this information.
I honestly don't think she needs to worry about the
safety of her 14yo. A 14yo should be able to
understand that if he witnesses something that makes
him uncomfortable in their home, he can come home and
talk to his mother or father about it. He should also
understand that if anyone ever tried to harm him
physically, he is legally allowed to defend himself,
so I wouldn't worry about those people spanking him!
I'm not so much worried about him being physically abused as witnessing such
a thing and having to deal with the trauma of an adult trying to hurt him. If
these parents were pedophiles no one would think my son should be in their
home just because he's big enough to fight back. To me physical abuse is
something as horrible as sexual abuse.
As always, our children are going to interact with
people who think and act differently than we do, and
it is through discussing this with them and helping
them to understand and process what they see and hear
and do that they will form their own view of the
world. So, lots of discussions with him, and then at
14 I think he is old enough to decide whether or not
he wants to hang out at their home.
Ethan interacts with people that have very different beliefs than he does.
Even in our own family (myself and youngest son are vegetarians and he is not
:), he is so much more of an environmentalist than I am--things that I don't
find objectionable he does, we have friends that run the gammet from Christians
to Pagans, friends who are main stream and others who are environmentalist and
back to the earth types,etc, etc.) We have had many discussions. Ethan is
worried also about the abuse, but very much wants to continue being friends
with the boy. I want him to remain friends with this boy, also, because it makes
Ethan happy. We were just trying to find something that would make everyone
happy and safe.
Thanks,
Cindy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Leslie530@... writes:
> Well the thing is, even if it is morally reprehensibleI don't think that is true. I had a discussion with a child psychologist a
> to many of us, spanking, even with a switch or "rod",
> isn't illegal in *any* state, and doesn't fall under
> the legal category of abuse. It is even still legal
> in 22 states for school officials (principals,
> teachers, etc.) to paddle students.
>
few years back and the subject of spanking came up. At least in the State of
Maine, this pyschologist says that DHS views anything other than an open palm
on the bottom to be considered as child abuse. I would like to see where she
got this information.
I honestly don't think she needs to worry about the
safety of her 14yo. A 14yo should be able to
understand that if he witnesses something that makes
him uncomfortable in their home, he can come home and
talk to his mother or father about it. He should also
understand that if anyone ever tried to harm him
physically, he is legally allowed to defend himself,
so I wouldn't worry about those people spanking him!
I'm not so much worried about him being physically abused as witnessing such
a thing and having to deal with the trauma of an adult trying to hurt him. If
these parents were pedophiles no one would think my son should be in their
home just because he's big enough to fight back. To me physical abuse is
something as horrible as sexual abuse.
As always, our children are going to interact with
people who think and act differently than we do, and
it is through discussing this with them and helping
them to understand and process what they see and hear
and do that they will form their own view of the
world. So, lots of discussions with him, and then at
14 I think he is old enough to decide whether or not
he wants to hang out at their home.
Ethan interacts with people that have very different beliefs than he does.
Even in our own family (myself and youngest son are vegetarians and he is not
:), he is so much more of an environmentalist than I am--things that I don't
find objectionable he does, we have friends that run the gammet from Christians
to Pagans, friends who are main stream and others who are environmentalist and
back to the earth types,etc, etc.) We have had many discussions. Ethan is
worried also about the abuse, but very much wants to continue being friends
with the boy. I want him to remain friends with this boy, also, because it makes
Ethan happy. We were just trying to find something that would make everyone
happy and safe.
Thanks,
Cindy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/18/05 3:51:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dezigna@... writes:
I too have had such concerns. There have been several times that they have
invited him to their church. Ethan has always politely declined the
invitations, but they keep after him about it. I, also, get the feeling that because I
disagree with spanking that they feel I am a bad influence for their children.
Cindy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezigna@... writes:
> I have another thought about this, which would apply to any aged child.Robyn:
> Beyond the atmosphere of coercion and the likely controls on behavior, my
> concern would be the likelihood of attempts to witness to or "save" your ds.
> That may be why they persist in inviting him over to their home. I don't
> want people witnessing to Jayn at this point. I would have a hard time
> leaving her in such a home.
>
I too have had such concerns. There have been several times that they have
invited him to their church. Ethan has always politely declined the
invitations, but they keep after him about it. I, also, get the feeling that because I
disagree with spanking that they feel I am a bad influence for their children.
Cindy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sunday Cote
***This is exactly one of the reasoning points I had with the
homeschooling
group and this mother in particular and they came back with all kinds of
stuff
from Dr. Dobson and that I was twisting scripture. Like I said they
were not in
the least bit willing to be reasonable.***
Cindy:
This can be so frustrating. It's true that anyone can twist scripture
to support pretty much any view. I'd be curious to know how they
translate the scripture from the article I sent that pretty much says
you should kill your child if he back talks.
I remember reading Dobson early on in motherhood. It made me physically
ill. I seriously contemplated *loosing* the copy I got from the library
so that other unsuspecting parents wouldn't get to it. Of course that
would be censorship, so I grudgingly took it back.
I try to approach others proselytizing to my children the same way I
approach any subject from an unschooling perspective - with trust that
my sons will make the decisions that will serve them in their lives. I
have a great example of this in my own life with regard to religious. I
grew up in a very conservative Christian rural area. I was always
interested in religion and church. My mother was not conservative at
all, but was very supportive of me finding my own way. I lived on a
ranch about 20 miles from the nearest small town. Every so often a
church bus would drive out to pick me up and take me to the church I was
most curious about at the moment. I was proselytized by every church in
the area. Our public school would even let kids out of school to go to
the Baptist tent revival! My mom would just share her views, but not
make a big deal out of my exploring. I think because she was so willing
to let me explore that I turned out having a very healthy view of
spirituality and am now comfortable in my views and spiritual practice.
As a matter of fact, I finally landed on a religion that my mother
introduced me to when I was about 17 years old. That's actually a
really good reminder that my values do carry weight with my kids.
Thanks for creating the opportunity for this conversation.
Sunday
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
homeschooling
group and this mother in particular and they came back with all kinds of
stuff
from Dr. Dobson and that I was twisting scripture. Like I said they
were not in
the least bit willing to be reasonable.***
Cindy:
This can be so frustrating. It's true that anyone can twist scripture
to support pretty much any view. I'd be curious to know how they
translate the scripture from the article I sent that pretty much says
you should kill your child if he back talks.
I remember reading Dobson early on in motherhood. It made me physically
ill. I seriously contemplated *loosing* the copy I got from the library
so that other unsuspecting parents wouldn't get to it. Of course that
would be censorship, so I grudgingly took it back.
I try to approach others proselytizing to my children the same way I
approach any subject from an unschooling perspective - with trust that
my sons will make the decisions that will serve them in their lives. I
have a great example of this in my own life with regard to religious. I
grew up in a very conservative Christian rural area. I was always
interested in religion and church. My mother was not conservative at
all, but was very supportive of me finding my own way. I lived on a
ranch about 20 miles from the nearest small town. Every so often a
church bus would drive out to pick me up and take me to the church I was
most curious about at the moment. I was proselytized by every church in
the area. Our public school would even let kids out of school to go to
the Baptist tent revival! My mom would just share her views, but not
make a big deal out of my exploring. I think because she was so willing
to let me explore that I turned out having a very healthy view of
spirituality and am now comfortable in my views and spiritual practice.
As a matter of fact, I finally landed on a religion that my mother
introduced me to when I was about 17 years old. That's actually a
really good reminder that my values do carry weight with my kids.
Thanks for creating the opportunity for this conversation.
Sunday
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rod Thomas
Typically, Christians who spank do so gently and without anger. I dont
spank, but I dont believe you have anything to worry about
personally.IMHO
Kathy
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Garcinethlog@...
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 2:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] parenting question
Julie:
I have spoke with Ethan and of course he wants to be able to hang out
with
his friend. I want him to be able to have him hang out with his friend.
It's
not his friend that I have a problem with. It's that I feel it's not
safe for
him mentally or physically at this household. If you've never seen
someone
abused than you don't know how horrible it is to witness such a crime.
I've
been abused and watched ones I love be abused. I have to say it was
much worse
witnessing abuse than receiving it. I just don't want him to be subject
to
such an awful experience. It changes you forever.
I did appreciate on of the posters suggestions of meeting some place
where
everyone would feel comfortable. I think that might be a workable
solution for
all of us.
Cindy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
spank, but I dont believe you have anything to worry about
personally.IMHO
Kathy
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Garcinethlog@...
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 2:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] parenting question
Julie:
I have spoke with Ethan and of course he wants to be able to hang out
with
his friend. I want him to be able to have him hang out with his friend.
It's
not his friend that I have a problem with. It's that I feel it's not
safe for
him mentally or physically at this household. If you've never seen
someone
abused than you don't know how horrible it is to witness such a crime.
I've
been abused and watched ones I love be abused. I have to say it was
much worse
witnessing abuse than receiving it. I just don't want him to be subject
to
such an awful experience. It changes you forever.
I did appreciate on of the posters suggestions of meeting some place
where
everyone would feel comfortable. I think that might be a workable
solution for
all of us.
Cindy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 18, 2005, at 10:00 AM, Leslie530@... wrote:
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
along with a lot of other good stuff against spanking.
give them power over the situation. Let them know that if anything is
making them uncomfortable that they can call and you'll come right
over. I wouldn't say it in a voice that says you are fearing that
very thing but as a piece of advice you'd want them to have in their
heads for *any* situation.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I understand, although haven't checked it out myself, that thisThere's a link about the "spare the rod" phrase at:
> saying is
> not even in the bible.
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
along with a lot of other good stuff against spanking.
> TheyI think better than protecting them from something you fear is to
> proably won't do it in front on him, but sometimes people lose
> control even when others are around. I don't feel comfortable having
> my child with people I cannot trust (she says one thing when she
> thinks there is support for it and quite another when she thinks she
> might be in trouble).
give them power over the situation. Let them know that if anything is
making them uncomfortable that they can call and you'll come right
over. I wouldn't say it in a voice that says you are fearing that
very thing but as a piece of advice you'd want them to have in their
heads for *any* situation.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***They have however invited my child over, but I'm not
feeling too comfortable with this idea. ***
Before you found out the other mom spanks did your son go to their house?
If he was visiting his friend before you understood what the friend's
home life was like did he ever mention to you that the parents spanked or
otherwise punished the kids in his presence?
If he's been going and if he hasn't personally witnessed the parents
assaulting their kids it's not likely they'll start smacking their kids
around in front of him now that you know.
Your son is fourteen and could leave their house if he was uncomfortable,
right? He could call you or walk home?
Your non-spanked kid might be a deterrent to spanking for those parents.
The mom knows how you feel, knows your kids don't get treated that way,
knows your son will likely talk to you about his experience at their
house.
How does your son feel about going to their house? If he feels ok with
it, and if he can leave if he needs to, then I don't see why he shouldn't
go. They are not likely to hit your child. Creepy as it is, it's legal
to hit our own precious kids but not legal to hit anyone else.
Outings in neutral places might be good if you can talk to that mom long
enough to get her to agree, but if you can't and she still resists
letting her kid come to your house, then the options for your son are
smaller. And if you are ultimately the thing standing in the way of
seeing his friend (even if he says he understands your reasoning) that
won't do either of you any good. Putting a barrier between your son and
the other child might be just as upsetting or traumatizing to your son as
if he were to witness those parents yelling at or spanking a kid.
Find out what your son wants to do.
Deb Lewis
feeling too comfortable with this idea. ***
Before you found out the other mom spanks did your son go to their house?
If he was visiting his friend before you understood what the friend's
home life was like did he ever mention to you that the parents spanked or
otherwise punished the kids in his presence?
If he's been going and if he hasn't personally witnessed the parents
assaulting their kids it's not likely they'll start smacking their kids
around in front of him now that you know.
Your son is fourteen and could leave their house if he was uncomfortable,
right? He could call you or walk home?
Your non-spanked kid might be a deterrent to spanking for those parents.
The mom knows how you feel, knows your kids don't get treated that way,
knows your son will likely talk to you about his experience at their
house.
How does your son feel about going to their house? If he feels ok with
it, and if he can leave if he needs to, then I don't see why he shouldn't
go. They are not likely to hit your child. Creepy as it is, it's legal
to hit our own precious kids but not legal to hit anyone else.
Outings in neutral places might be good if you can talk to that mom long
enough to get her to agree, but if you can't and she still resists
letting her kid come to your house, then the options for your son are
smaller. And if you are ultimately the thing standing in the way of
seeing his friend (even if he says he understands your reasoning) that
won't do either of you any good. Putting a barrier between your son and
the other child might be just as upsetting or traumatizing to your son as
if he were to witness those parents yelling at or spanking a kid.
Find out what your son wants to do.
Deb Lewis
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/18/05 8:54:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:
walk but it would take a very long time to get home. He could call, but do
you really think they'd let him if they are this type of person?
If he's been going and if he hasn't personally witnessed the parents
assaulting their kids it's not likely they'll start smacking their kids
around in front of him now that you know.
Ethan has only been over twice with out me or with a group of people. Mostly
the boy was coming to our house, until they found out I didn't believe in
spanking.
How does your son feel about going to their house?
As I stated in another post, he is really concerned about it, too. He does
want to remain friends with this boy. He's kind of afraid what he might do if
he saw his friend or friends siblings being hit (and we are not talking a slap
on the bottom--we are talking beating with a stick). It outrages him. He
does feel that their friendship will be limited if he doesn't go over though.
Putting a barrier between your son and
the other child might be just as upsetting or traumatizing to your son as
if he were to witness those parents yelling at or spanking a kid.
I guess you didn't read the posts very thoroughly. We are not refering to
regular spankings (all though that would make me nervous) or yelling--it's
beatings with a stick other wise known as assault and battery. Have you ever seen
anyone beat? I have. I witnessed it daily as a child. It fosters feelings of
guilt, deep anger, and fear. Deb, what would you say about all of this if
these people had admitted that they fondle their children, but we had never seen
it happen. Would you think I should put him in that dangerous situation. I
doubt it very much. Sexual abuse is no worse than physical and mental abuse.
I know! I can tell you for sure that being concerned for his safety will not
be as traumatizing (if at all) as it would be to see someone he cares about
being beat. One of a parents responsibilities is to protect their children.
It's the most natural thing in the world--ie. mother bears, birds who pretend
to be hurt so the predator will come after them instead of their young, etc.
Of course, I have discussed this with my son. I just merely wanted some
suggestions of how to keep him safe and not ruin his friendship. I'm not trying to
keep these two seperated, just safe.
Cindy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ddzimlew@... writes:
> Your son is fourteen and could leave their house if he was uncomfortable,We live in a very rural area--his friend lives 1/2 hour away by car. He could
> right? He could call you or walk home?
>
walk but it would take a very long time to get home. He could call, but do
you really think they'd let him if they are this type of person?
If he's been going and if he hasn't personally witnessed the parents
assaulting their kids it's not likely they'll start smacking their kids
around in front of him now that you know.
Ethan has only been over twice with out me or with a group of people. Mostly
the boy was coming to our house, until they found out I didn't believe in
spanking.
How does your son feel about going to their house?
As I stated in another post, he is really concerned about it, too. He does
want to remain friends with this boy. He's kind of afraid what he might do if
he saw his friend or friends siblings being hit (and we are not talking a slap
on the bottom--we are talking beating with a stick). It outrages him. He
does feel that their friendship will be limited if he doesn't go over though.
Putting a barrier between your son and
the other child might be just as upsetting or traumatizing to your son as
if he were to witness those parents yelling at or spanking a kid.
I guess you didn't read the posts very thoroughly. We are not refering to
regular spankings (all though that would make me nervous) or yelling--it's
beatings with a stick other wise known as assault and battery. Have you ever seen
anyone beat? I have. I witnessed it daily as a child. It fosters feelings of
guilt, deep anger, and fear. Deb, what would you say about all of this if
these people had admitted that they fondle their children, but we had never seen
it happen. Would you think I should put him in that dangerous situation. I
doubt it very much. Sexual abuse is no worse than physical and mental abuse.
I know! I can tell you for sure that being concerned for his safety will not
be as traumatizing (if at all) as it would be to see someone he cares about
being beat. One of a parents responsibilities is to protect their children.
It's the most natural thing in the world--ie. mother bears, birds who pretend
to be hurt so the predator will come after them instead of their young, etc.
Of course, I have discussed this with my son. I just merely wanted some
suggestions of how to keep him safe and not ruin his friendship. I'm not trying to
keep these two seperated, just safe.
Cindy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
coolcrew
Cindy why don' t you report this family to the authorities? I live in the UK and it is not acceptable. Our SS would very quickly get invovlved if anyone reported this sort of thing happening.
Ruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<<I guess you didn't read the posts very thoroughly>>
OK, so you really want to not allow your son to visit these people anymore. That is very much your choice, your call. You posted asking for input and people gave it. Apparently, we were simply supposed to agree with you and tell you what a great mom you are and be aghast at these other people. You know your son best, the situation best, do what feels right to you. But if you ask for input, the chance of everyone agreeing with you on any issue is small.
Julie S.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
OK, so you really want to not allow your son to visit these people anymore. That is very much your choice, your call. You posted asking for input and people gave it. Apparently, we were simply supposed to agree with you and tell you what a great mom you are and be aghast at these other people. You know your son best, the situation best, do what feels right to you. But if you ask for input, the chance of everyone agreeing with you on any issue is small.
Julie S.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], Garcinethlog@a... wrote:
walks and you could be talking to him as you're driving to get him.
Is there -anything- in between there and your house? A minimart
maybe? You could arrange that as a 'safe place' where he could go
(more quickly than walking all the way home) and you could pick him
up there - he'd be in a peopled lighted place with shelter from the
weather if necessary with a cell phone. With the current inexpensive
cell phones and pay as you go plans (no big commitments), it might
be well worth it to both help him maintain the friendship AND have a
safety outlet.
> In a message dated 8/18/05 8:54:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,Cell phone - he could leave the house, and dial the cell phone as he
> ddzimlew@j... writes:
>
> > Your son is fourteen and could leave their house if he was
>uncomfortable,
> > right? He could call you or walk home?
> >
>
> We live in a very rural area--his friend lives 1/2 hour away by
>car. He could
> walk but it would take a very long time to get home. He could
>call, but do
> you really think they'd let him if they are this type of person?
walks and you could be talking to him as you're driving to get him.
Is there -anything- in between there and your house? A minimart
maybe? You could arrange that as a 'safe place' where he could go
(more quickly than walking all the way home) and you could pick him
up there - he'd be in a peopled lighted place with shelter from the
weather if necessary with a cell phone. With the current inexpensive
cell phones and pay as you go plans (no big commitments), it might
be well worth it to both help him maintain the friendship AND have a
safety outlet.
averyschmidt
> Typically, Christians who spank do so gently and without anger. Idon't
> spank, but I don't believe you have anything to worry aboutThis idea of spanking "gently and without anger" makes my blood run
> personally.
even colder than the idea of spanking in anger.
Those poor children. I think we have *everything* to worry about.
Patti
Sylvia Toyama
Typically, Christians who spank do so gently and without anger. I
don't spank, but I don't believe you have anything to worry about
personally.
****
There's no gentle way to hit another person, especially one who is smaller and less powerful than the hitter. Maybe the spankers I've come across aren't 'typical christians' but I've found that most of them do hit with something (belt, paddle, etc) and that they certainly will threaten a spanking in moments of anger. Besides, how sick is it to hit someone once you've calmed down and the anger has passed?
Sylvia
Mom to Will (20) Andy (9) and Dan (4.5)
The opposite of courage in our society is not cowardice, it is conformity -- Rollo May
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
don't spank, but I don't believe you have anything to worry about
personally.
****
There's no gentle way to hit another person, especially one who is smaller and less powerful than the hitter. Maybe the spankers I've come across aren't 'typical christians' but I've found that most of them do hit with something (belt, paddle, etc) and that they certainly will threaten a spanking in moments of anger. Besides, how sick is it to hit someone once you've calmed down and the anger has passed?
Sylvia
Mom to Will (20) Andy (9) and Dan (4.5)
The opposite of courage in our society is not cowardice, it is conformity -- Rollo May
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rod Thomas
> Typically, Christians who spank do so gently and without anger. Idon't
> spank, but I don't believe you have anything to worry aboutThis idea of spanking "gently and without anger" makes my blood
> personally. kathy
run
even colder than the idea of spanking in anger.
Those poor children. I think we have *everything* to worry
about.
Patti
I meant the boy who is visiting his friend does not have anything to
worry about himself. Meaning, its not likely the parents are going to
hit him. His spanked friend is a whole other story.
I went to a Homeschool open house and book sale yesterday here in
Florida, with tables set up for different vendors, and 2 speakers, one
of which got up and spoke about the bible and how to spank, and was even
selling her book which comes with a wooden paddle. I was seated in the
audience and just kept looking around at others as if to say, "is this
woman serious or am I on candid camera?". I got up and left.
Kathy
Yahoo! Groups Links
Deb Lewis
***We live in a very rural area--his friend lives 1/2 hour away by car.
He could
walk but it would take a very long time to get home. He could call, but
do
you really think they'd let him if they are this type of person?***
I think it would be unlikely they'd interfere with him calling you.
If he had a cell phone they wouldn't even know he called.
***he is really concerned about it, too. He does
want to remain friends with this boy. He's kind of afraid what he might
do if
he saw his friend or friends siblings being hit (and we are not talking a
slap
on the bottom--we are talking beating with a stick). It outrages him.
***
So, you scared and riled him about this mom and now he's thinking of ways
he can fight back? That probably wasn't the kindest thing you could have
done for him.
Lots of people hit their kids. Lots. Your doctor might have hit her
kids, your vet, your letter carrier. You just don't know and if you're
going to declare war on everyone who has or is your son's world will be
getting smaller instead of bigger.
Why did you feel you had to tell him about his friends mom? To warn him
in case something happened at their house? Are you going to warn him
against the possibility that at any friends house or at any moment in
public he might witness a child/parent interaction that's less than
ideal? Creating fear and suspicion in him won't help him have
friendships.
***He does feel that their friendship will be limited if he doesn't go
over though.***
So, he wants to go. But now he'll go, looking for a reason to be angry
at that mom, with the possibility of tension between him and his friend.
***I guess you didn't read the posts very thoroughly. ***
What I read was that from an e-mail conversation you found out this mom
is like millions of moms out there who spank their kids, and yes, even
use a stick.
I've written many times about spanking and I believe even one open handed
swat on the behind is assault. I believe this because if I hit any adult
that way they could press charges against me. My son was never spanked
or punished in any way and like you I believe hitting another person,
especially our own kids, is abuse.
But from what you read about her spanking you've concluded she's a raging
out of control lunatic who might go off at any minute and beat her
children in front of your son and maybe even beat your kid too. I think
that's unlikely.
***Deb, what would you say about all of this if
these people had admitted that they fondle their children, but we had
never seen
it happen.***
They didn't. She admitted to a legal and widely accepted practice that
our society is so comfortable with they call it "parenting." Equating
her bad choice/ignorance to spank with deviancy is not going to help you
think about this rationally. Creating a wild scenario is not a good
practice and won't do anything to help your son maintain this friendship.
That is your goal, right? Typically parents who hit their kids do not
do so under the watchful eye of house guests and do not randomly hit
house guests/other people's children.
***I can tell you for sure that being concerned for his safety will not
be as traumatizing ***
I didn't write that being concerned for his safety would traumatize him.
I said being a barrier to this friends could. Being a barrier to his
exploration of the world and his own good judgement could. You are
trying to protect him from your fear, not from any situation that has
actually happened to or is likely to happen to your son.
Since you live so far from the other kid is part of the reason his mom
isn't letting him come to your house that she has little kids and can't
give her older kid a ride? Have you offered to go pick him up? Maybe
that will help.
Maybe if you just drove over there with your son and said, "Can Bobby
come with us to the music store?" or some such she'd be less rigid, face
to face. Take her a pie. Have the whole family over for dinner or game
night. Bridge the gap that was created out of your e-mail discussion if
you can. Seeing the family in person, seeing the family dynamic might
ease your fears some, too. It would be a nice thing to do for your son.
Deb Lewis
He could
walk but it would take a very long time to get home. He could call, but
do
you really think they'd let him if they are this type of person?***
I think it would be unlikely they'd interfere with him calling you.
If he had a cell phone they wouldn't even know he called.
***he is really concerned about it, too. He does
want to remain friends with this boy. He's kind of afraid what he might
do if
he saw his friend or friends siblings being hit (and we are not talking a
slap
on the bottom--we are talking beating with a stick). It outrages him.
***
So, you scared and riled him about this mom and now he's thinking of ways
he can fight back? That probably wasn't the kindest thing you could have
done for him.
Lots of people hit their kids. Lots. Your doctor might have hit her
kids, your vet, your letter carrier. You just don't know and if you're
going to declare war on everyone who has or is your son's world will be
getting smaller instead of bigger.
Why did you feel you had to tell him about his friends mom? To warn him
in case something happened at their house? Are you going to warn him
against the possibility that at any friends house or at any moment in
public he might witness a child/parent interaction that's less than
ideal? Creating fear and suspicion in him won't help him have
friendships.
***He does feel that their friendship will be limited if he doesn't go
over though.***
So, he wants to go. But now he'll go, looking for a reason to be angry
at that mom, with the possibility of tension between him and his friend.
***I guess you didn't read the posts very thoroughly. ***
What I read was that from an e-mail conversation you found out this mom
is like millions of moms out there who spank their kids, and yes, even
use a stick.
I've written many times about spanking and I believe even one open handed
swat on the behind is assault. I believe this because if I hit any adult
that way they could press charges against me. My son was never spanked
or punished in any way and like you I believe hitting another person,
especially our own kids, is abuse.
But from what you read about her spanking you've concluded she's a raging
out of control lunatic who might go off at any minute and beat her
children in front of your son and maybe even beat your kid too. I think
that's unlikely.
***Deb, what would you say about all of this if
these people had admitted that they fondle their children, but we had
never seen
it happen.***
They didn't. She admitted to a legal and widely accepted practice that
our society is so comfortable with they call it "parenting." Equating
her bad choice/ignorance to spank with deviancy is not going to help you
think about this rationally. Creating a wild scenario is not a good
practice and won't do anything to help your son maintain this friendship.
That is your goal, right? Typically parents who hit their kids do not
do so under the watchful eye of house guests and do not randomly hit
house guests/other people's children.
***I can tell you for sure that being concerned for his safety will not
be as traumatizing ***
I didn't write that being concerned for his safety would traumatize him.
I said being a barrier to this friends could. Being a barrier to his
exploration of the world and his own good judgement could. You are
trying to protect him from your fear, not from any situation that has
actually happened to or is likely to happen to your son.
Since you live so far from the other kid is part of the reason his mom
isn't letting him come to your house that she has little kids and can't
give her older kid a ride? Have you offered to go pick him up? Maybe
that will help.
Maybe if you just drove over there with your son and said, "Can Bobby
come with us to the music store?" or some such she'd be less rigid, face
to face. Take her a pie. Have the whole family over for dinner or game
night. Bridge the gap that was created out of your e-mail discussion if
you can. Seeing the family in person, seeing the family dynamic might
ease your fears some, too. It would be a nice thing to do for your son.
Deb Lewis
[email protected]
I meant the boy who is visiting his friend does not have anything to
worry about himself. Meaning, its not likely the parents are going to
hit him. His spanked friend is a whole other story.
***********
Not necessarily. An unschooler I know had some friends from her church
watch her kids for a few hours. When she got back, one of her children had been
spanked severely, to put it mildly.
I would like to think that all people would treat my children decently, but
unfortunately that isn't always true. And it has nothing to do with
religion, other than the fact that these people believe that they have a *duty* to
spank their children. We aren't talking about a parenting style we just
don't agree with.
This is a really tough situation and I would put the safety of the child
first, both mental and physical. The details can be discussed and sorted out
from there.
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
worry about himself. Meaning, its not likely the parents are going to
hit him. His spanked friend is a whole other story.
***********
Not necessarily. An unschooler I know had some friends from her church
watch her kids for a few hours. When she got back, one of her children had been
spanked severely, to put it mildly.
I would like to think that all people would treat my children decently, but
unfortunately that isn't always true. And it has nothing to do with
religion, other than the fact that these people believe that they have a *duty* to
spank their children. We aren't talking about a parenting style we just
don't agree with.
This is a really tough situation and I would put the safety of the child
first, both mental and physical. The details can be discussed and sorted out
from there.
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tina
> Typically, Christians who spank do so gently and without anger. IIt's a conscious parenting decision. It's something that many are
> don't spank, but I don't believe you have anything to worry about
> personally.
>
> ****
>
> There's no gentle way to hit another person, especially one who is
> smaller and less powerful than the hitter. Maybe the spankers
> I've come across aren't 'typical christians' but I've found that
> most of them do hit with something (belt, paddle, etc) and that
> they certainly will threaten a spanking in moments of anger.
> Besides, how sick is it to hit someone once you've calmed down and
> the anger has passed?
tought and believe to be best. It's what the person knows and
belives to be good and necessary for their family. Trust me...there
are differnt levels to this. I've witnesses many. Spanking with
purpose is not considered abuse. Beating a child uncontrollably for
the heck of it or out of anger and frustration could easily be
considered abuse.
I'm confused about something...isn't spanking a philisophical
difference in beliefs? I don't know about everyone else here, but
in my everyday life I'm surrounded by people from all walks of
life. I wouldn't dream of staying away from someone just because I
disagreed with their belief in spanking. We all come from differnt
places, and we are ALL in different spots in our walk through life.
What one person may find morally reprehensible may be perfectly
normal to someone else.
What about the person that's a hunter? They kill animals on a
regular basis. We may not agree with that lifestyle, but we're not
going to keep our children and animals away from them. What about
the person that is in a career that damages the environment in some
way? Are we going to not speak to them. This can be taken in many
directions.
I'm getting to the point that I just detest public school. It makes
my stomach go in knots when I hear about children having to be
locked up in a room, some without windows, all day long. It's part
of society. It's what we are raised to do. Unless something
happens to change our minds and our circumstances that is the
lifestyle we lead. It's the same with spanking. It's the same with
immunizations. It's the same with food choices. It's the same with
everything we do that effects our lives and the lives of our
families.
All of are not blessed to know kind and gentle parenting before
we've had our babies. Some of us have to arrive there. Some of us
never will. I'd have to say that I know way more people that
parent "main stream" than embrace the unschool philosophy. Even for
those of us that come to unschooling it's the unschooling in
relation to everything school that comes first. The parenting is
more of a biproduct of the choice to unschool.
My point is that we are in a vast society filled with many different
types of people and belief systems. I believe one benefit of
unschooling is that we learn how to co-exist and interact with all
different types of people. We are not self-limiting in who we can
associate with. It is very possible that someone who believes in
spanking may disagree with our decision to unschool and find it
equally reprehensible that we are willing to "damage" our children
in such a way. We do what we know to be good and true at whatever
point we are at. We can only do what we know. Period.
Since when have we needed to worry about whether someone that
believes in spanking (no matter how they believe in it) is going to
be a physical threat to our children, especially at the age of 14
years? Most people that believe in spanking don't even spank
children of that age. Also, it is very unusual for anyone who
spanks their children to spank anyone else's children without prior
permission. In my personal opinion this seems to be a bit of an
over reaction.
Again, this is just my personal opinion on this type of situation.
It is not directed at anyone in particular. Just my opinion on the
subject at hand.
Tina
coolcrew
I would like to think that all people would treat my children decently, but
unfortunately that isn't always true. And it has nothing to do with
religion, other than the fact that these people believe that they have a *duty* to
spank their children. We aren't talking about a parenting style we just
don't agree with. >
**********************
Yes my "religious" ( I use the term loosely and please don't anyone think I mean Christian cos the way they behaved was far from it) parents believed in belting and did so to my children without my knowledge or consent. They know I don't hit them and deliberately used their power over my children to try and "make them tow the line." when they had them round. Two were non verbal and autistic and I only found out the extent to what was going on last year. I have not spoken to them or let them near the children since. They still - I have found out from other family members - cannot understand what all the fuss is about. They just don't see it was wrong and never will.My youngest had nightmares over the way they treated him.
Ruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unfortunately that isn't always true. And it has nothing to do with
religion, other than the fact that these people believe that they have a *duty* to
spank their children. We aren't talking about a parenting style we just
don't agree with. >
**********************
Yes my "religious" ( I use the term loosely and please don't anyone think I mean Christian cos the way they behaved was far from it) parents believed in belting and did so to my children without my knowledge or consent. They know I don't hit them and deliberately used their power over my children to try and "make them tow the line." when they had them round. Two were non verbal and autistic and I only found out the extent to what was going on last year. I have not spoken to them or let them near the children since. They still - I have found out from other family members - cannot understand what all the fuss is about. They just don't see it was wrong and never will.My youngest had nightmares over the way they treated him.
Ruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandrewmama
On Aug 19, 2005, at 7:58 AM, soggyboysmom wrote:
midwest) to explore the city for four days with his Nana & Grappa.
Nana & Grappa have a cell phone but only turn it on when they're
expecting someone might call them (ie. they told me they'll have it
on during my son's travel time). I'd like to send a cell phone along
with him so that he has the freedom to call us anytime day or night
to share something exciting or because he misses us or whatever. We
use only cell phones at home. We have one for our house, one that I
carry with me and one that dh carries and uses for his business
number. We use Verizon. I looked into their INpulse pay-as-you-go
plan but find that it will nickel-and-dime us to death ($100 for the
phone and 30 days access + a $35 "activation fee" then after that a
minimum of $15/month access that has to be renewed each month). So,
what I'm wondering is if anyone knows of a simpler plan -- cheap
phone, simpler plan? What works well for your kids?
At home, ds is mostly a home-body so he doesn't have much need for
his own cell phone yet so I don't want to make a big commitment. Any
suggestions?
Thanks
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> With the current inexpensiveMy 14 yo will be flying alone, in a week, to NYC (we live in the
> cell phones and pay as you go plans (no big commitments), it might
> be well worth it to both help him maintain the friendship AND have a
> safety outlet.
>
midwest) to explore the city for four days with his Nana & Grappa.
Nana & Grappa have a cell phone but only turn it on when they're
expecting someone might call them (ie. they told me they'll have it
on during my son's travel time). I'd like to send a cell phone along
with him so that he has the freedom to call us anytime day or night
to share something exciting or because he misses us or whatever. We
use only cell phones at home. We have one for our house, one that I
carry with me and one that dh carries and uses for his business
number. We use Verizon. I looked into their INpulse pay-as-you-go
plan but find that it will nickel-and-dime us to death ($100 for the
phone and 30 days access + a $35 "activation fee" then after that a
minimum of $15/month access that has to be renewed each month). So,
what I'm wondering is if anyone knows of a simpler plan -- cheap
phone, simpler plan? What works well for your kids?
At home, ds is mostly a home-body so he doesn't have much need for
his own cell phone yet so I don't want to make a big commitment. Any
suggestions?
Thanks
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle
I would just ask Nana if he could use the phone anytime he wanted and that you would pay his share of the charges.. That way you have no long term fees.
My mom has the pay as you go but like you said it nickle and dimes her to death
Michelle
Sandrewmama <sandrewmama@...> wrote:
My mom has the pay as you go but like you said it nickle and dimes her to death
Michelle
Sandrewmama <sandrewmama@...> wrote:
On Aug 19, 2005, at 7:58 AM, soggyboysmom wrote:
> With the current inexpensive
> cell phones and pay as you go plans (no big commitments), it might
> be well worth it to both help him maintain the friendship AND have a
> safety outlet.
>
My 14 yo will be flying alone, in a week, to NYC (we live in the
midwest) to explore the city for four days with his Nana & Grappa.
Nana & Grappa have a cell phone but only turn it on when they're
expecting someone might call them (ie. they told me they'll have it
on during my son's travel time). I'd like to send a cell phone along
with him so that he has the freedom to call us anytime day or night
to share something exciting or because he misses us or whatever. We
use only cell phones at home. We have one for our house, one that I
carry with me and one that dh carries and uses for his business
number. We use Verizon. I looked into their INpulse pay-as-you-go
plan but find that it will nickel-and-dime us to death ($100 for the
phone and 30 days access + a $35 "activation fee" then after that a
minimum of $15/month access that has to be renewed each month). So,
what I'm wondering is if anyone knows of a simpler plan -- cheap
phone, simpler plan? What works well for your kids?
At home, ds is mostly a home-body so he doesn't have much need for
his own cell phone yet so I don't want to make a big commitment. Any
suggestions?
Thanks
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Elisa Allender
We too switched to using only cell phones and cancelled our home
phones. I have twin daughters who are 17. When we decided to get them
a phone we checked and compared prices and found the best price for us
as a family was through Cingular. We have to pay 69.99 for the main
phone and then 10.00 for each phone after that so we pay 125.00 a month
for 4 phones once you add in taxes, etc. We share 1500 minutes between
us but we have free mobile-to-mobile, free long distance, free nights
(9:00 pm-6:am) & weekends so it is worth it for us to always be in
contact with one another. One of my daughter's has a boyfriend who just
transferred to California...we are in FL and due to the time differences
from there to here she talks to him after 9:00 every evening and they
can talk for hours and there is no charge. When we get our bill in the
mail we have 15-17 pages of phone numbers dialed to and from all of our
phones but we NEVER use all the minutes since we are calling other cell
phones within Cingular's plan or each other or during free times. The
$125.00 may sound like a lot but for us it has been a lifesaver since we
all have our own phone now and can be reached at any time of day or
night. Our home phone bill ran 50.00-60.00 a month easily and there was
"arguing" over who needed to use the phone, not answering call-waiting
calls, having to wait around the house for a call, etc. My 9-yr-old
keeps asking when he is going to get a phone!! LOL, I told him as soon
as he was a teenager and started doing stuff away from us (he is ALWAYS
with us!)
Elisa
Sandrewmama wrote:
phones. I have twin daughters who are 17. When we decided to get them
a phone we checked and compared prices and found the best price for us
as a family was through Cingular. We have to pay 69.99 for the main
phone and then 10.00 for each phone after that so we pay 125.00 a month
for 4 phones once you add in taxes, etc. We share 1500 minutes between
us but we have free mobile-to-mobile, free long distance, free nights
(9:00 pm-6:am) & weekends so it is worth it for us to always be in
contact with one another. One of my daughter's has a boyfriend who just
transferred to California...we are in FL and due to the time differences
from there to here she talks to him after 9:00 every evening and they
can talk for hours and there is no charge. When we get our bill in the
mail we have 15-17 pages of phone numbers dialed to and from all of our
phones but we NEVER use all the minutes since we are calling other cell
phones within Cingular's plan or each other or during free times. The
$125.00 may sound like a lot but for us it has been a lifesaver since we
all have our own phone now and can be reached at any time of day or
night. Our home phone bill ran 50.00-60.00 a month easily and there was
"arguing" over who needed to use the phone, not answering call-waiting
calls, having to wait around the house for a call, etc. My 9-yr-old
keeps asking when he is going to get a phone!! LOL, I told him as soon
as he was a teenager and started doing stuff away from us (he is ALWAYS
with us!)
Elisa
Sandrewmama wrote:
>
> On Aug 19, 2005, at 7:58 AM, soggyboysmom wrote:
>
> > With the current inexpensive
> > cell phones and pay as you go plans (no big commitments), it might
> > be well worth it to both help him maintain the friendship AND have a
> > safety outlet.
> >
>
> My 14 yo will be flying alone, in a week, to NYC (we live in the
> midwest) to explore the city for four days with his Nana & Grappa.
> Nana & Grappa have a cell phone but only turn it on when they're
> expecting someone might call them (ie. they told me they'll have it
> on during my son's travel time). I'd like to send a cell phone along
> with him so that he has the freedom to call us anytime day or night
> to share something exciting or because he misses us or whatever. We
> use only cell phones at home. We have one for our house, one that I
> carry with me and one that dh carries and uses for his business
> number. We use Verizon. I looked into their INpulse pay-as-you-go
> plan but find that it will nickel-and-dime us to death ($100 for the
> phone and 30 days access + a $35 "activation fee" then after that a
> minimum of $15/month access that has to be renewed each month). So,
> what I'm wondering is if anyone knows of a simpler plan -- cheap
> phone, simpler plan? What works well for your kids?
>
> At home, ds is mostly a home-body so he doesn't have much need for
> his own cell phone yet so I don't want to make a big commitment. Any
> suggestions?
>
> Thanks
> Chris
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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