grandparents don't understand unschooling
[email protected]
This was sent to me to be posted anonymously:
My parents recently visited and after they went home, my dad sent me an email questioning our lifestyle and homeschooling choices. He does that every year or so. I've stripped the email of personal information.
I do not have a great relationship with my parents, because of their authoritarian parenting style.
Do you (the collective YOU) try to respond to these things? If I respond, he says, "I'm just giving observation/information, not having a conversation." That just about sums my relationship with him. Communication only goes one way. Period. I usually just ignore them, but still I'm hurt even after so many years of trying to heal my childhood.
--------------------
I see that you and [my husband] are probably subscribing to the Vicki Robin "Your Money or Your Life" ideal of living simply and not let money control your life.
Just bear in mind that Vicki Robin is different from you in two important ways, she has no children and she earns royalty from her popular book and speaking engagements.
What she practices may not be practical for most people. Money does not buy happiness, only security and more choices.
Also consider that spending 24/7 with your kid for the first 18 years of their lives takes a big chunk of your life. I can see it get on your nerves sometimes. [The younger one] is almost 3, sure you want another 15 years of this? That is why there are pre-school and regular schools to get them out of the house for a few hours so the parents can unwind. You and [hubby] were certainly not harmed by that. The kids can also benefit from socializing with other kids their age and not 24/7 with parents much older than them.
Whether your efforts will bear real fruit is questionable. Judging from the experience of So and So [my aunt and uncle who practiced attached parenting], [their older child] did not turn out to be less conventional than most young people her age and she doesn't quite love her parents as much as you would expect from all that efforts. [Their younger child] actually turn out to be more level headed and closer to them without all that efforts. I like [younger child] more than [The older one]. Genetics often have more influence than parenting.
With a family of 4, one of you have to work or be self employed to generate sufficiently income to provide for the kids well-being and education. I think they need a better apartment and not sleep on the floor with vents that open down to the basement. Love can only go so far.
[He is referring to our mattresses on the floor, as we have a family bed. The apartment is not that great. We are looking for other options.]
My parents recently visited and after they went home, my dad sent me an email questioning our lifestyle and homeschooling choices. He does that every year or so. I've stripped the email of personal information.
I do not have a great relationship with my parents, because of their authoritarian parenting style.
Do you (the collective YOU) try to respond to these things? If I respond, he says, "I'm just giving observation/information, not having a conversation." That just about sums my relationship with him. Communication only goes one way. Period. I usually just ignore them, but still I'm hurt even after so many years of trying to heal my childhood.
--------------------
I see that you and [my husband] are probably subscribing to the Vicki Robin "Your Money or Your Life" ideal of living simply and not let money control your life.
Just bear in mind that Vicki Robin is different from you in two important ways, she has no children and she earns royalty from her popular book and speaking engagements.
What she practices may not be practical for most people. Money does not buy happiness, only security and more choices.
Also consider that spending 24/7 with your kid for the first 18 years of their lives takes a big chunk of your life. I can see it get on your nerves sometimes. [The younger one] is almost 3, sure you want another 15 years of this? That is why there are pre-school and regular schools to get them out of the house for a few hours so the parents can unwind. You and [hubby] were certainly not harmed by that. The kids can also benefit from socializing with other kids their age and not 24/7 with parents much older than them.
Whether your efforts will bear real fruit is questionable. Judging from the experience of So and So [my aunt and uncle who practiced attached parenting], [their older child] did not turn out to be less conventional than most young people her age and she doesn't quite love her parents as much as you would expect from all that efforts. [Their younger child] actually turn out to be more level headed and closer to them without all that efforts. I like [younger child] more than [The older one]. Genetics often have more influence than parenting.
With a family of 4, one of you have to work or be self employed to generate sufficiently income to provide for the kids well-being and education. I think they need a better apartment and not sleep on the floor with vents that open down to the basement. Love can only go so far.
[He is referring to our mattresses on the floor, as we have a family bed. The apartment is not that great. We are looking for other options.]
Lesley Cross
In short, no, I would not respond. This is not about you or your family. It is about your father's thoughts about you and your family. And his apparent desire to share them with you and influence you. If you are open to receiving and considering his input, do with it what you will. If you are not, if this is the same old same old to you....just delete it. He is uncomfortable and concerned for your family and trying to deal with it in the way he knows how- to criticize you and offer advice. He also sees your normal everyday stress and thinks he has the answers. If his answers don't resonate for you, they're not the right solutions for you. It doesn't sound like he's willing to deal with his discomfort by understanding you and your family, therefore explanation isn't likely to go anywhere. In fact it's likely to increase his discomfort and result in more criticism and advice- unless he's made a shift into truly wanting to understand.
If it were me I'd probably think "yep, that's just dad being dad" and move on. This is about him doing what he needs to do to make himself feel better. What you do in response is pretty much irrelevant.
Lesley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If it were me I'd probably think "yep, that's just dad being dad" and move on. This is about him doing what he needs to do to make himself feel better. What you do in response is pretty much irrelevant.
Lesley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
> Do you (the collective YOU) try to respond to these things?To something like that email - no. In person, sort of, but only in the sense of acknowledging that my dad things he's saying something useful and helpful and moving the conversation onward. For the most part, I look for ways to agree and then change the subject. If I can't agree, I say something like "homeschooling is just such a different lifestyle" in a tone which says "it's okay that you don't understand" - and then look for a way to change the subject.
On facebook, I tend to get wordy with my dad - but I've also moved him to "restricted" status because it's tiresome. After over a decade, he still hasn't bothered to learn a darn thing about home education.
---Meredith
Vickisue_gray
Years ago, when my babies were little my spouse and I put our mattress on the floor so little ones could easily climb in and out. We also did the family bed and as the kids grew and wanted to sleep in their own beds we let them.
My parents didn't understand but they could see that whatever we were doing was growing great kids. For years once we moving into full blown radical Unschooling, they questioned me but they also knew I researched everything. Questioning me would land them with books, studies, articles, etc. more then they would ever wish to wade through.
I did send them select ones that explained Unschooling in simple and concise terms to help them understand.
That doesn't sound like an option that would work for you so I'd just let his email go to that great round filing cabinet in cyber space.
Have faith in your choices. If something isn't working then change it to something that does. Don't let his judgement get to you.
Peace and laughter
Vicki
My parents didn't understand but they could see that whatever we were doing was growing great kids. For years once we moving into full blown radical Unschooling, they questioned me but they also knew I researched everything. Questioning me would land them with books, studies, articles, etc. more then they would ever wish to wade through.
I did send them select ones that explained Unschooling in simple and concise terms to help them understand.
That doesn't sound like an option that would work for you so I'd just let his email go to that great round filing cabinet in cyber space.
Have faith in your choices. If something isn't working then change it to something that does. Don't let his judgement get to you.
Peace and laughter
Vicki
judyw0607
I would recommend simply not responding to the email. If he ever asks you about it, either in person or via email, you can always say, oh yeah, I got it, and immediately change the subject. If he really wants to discuss it (which it doesn't sound like he does), keep in mind you guys are the parents, and have confidence that you'll know if/when you need to make any adjustments to what you're doing.
I have a sister who likes to give her unsolicited opinion, and she's typically pretty negative. I got a bossy email from her a couple of years ago when we decided to not send my older son to kindergarten. My sister (who's been a public elementary school teacher for 20-ish years) went on and on about what he'd need to know by the end of kindergarten (writing 20-word sentences still sticks in my memory!), and it really irritated me...for quite a while, in fact. I'm glad I chose not to respond at all. Ordinarily, that wouldn't have been my style, but it has made for calmer interactions when we're together at family events. And, I think she got the message that I wasn't interested in her opinion on such matters, without my having said a single word! :)
Judy
I have a sister who likes to give her unsolicited opinion, and she's typically pretty negative. I got a bossy email from her a couple of years ago when we decided to not send my older son to kindergarten. My sister (who's been a public elementary school teacher for 20-ish years) went on and on about what he'd need to know by the end of kindergarten (writing 20-word sentences still sticks in my memory!), and it really irritated me...for quite a while, in fact. I'm glad I chose not to respond at all. Ordinarily, that wouldn't have been my style, but it has made for calmer interactions when we're together at family events. And, I think she got the message that I wasn't interested in her opinion on such matters, without my having said a single word! :)
Judy
--- In [email protected], [email protected] wrote:
>
> This was sent to me to be posted anonymously:
>
> My parents recently visited and after they went home, my dad sent me an email questioning our lifestyle and homeschooling choices. He does that every year or so. I've stripped the email of personal information.
>
> I do not have a great relationship with my parents, because of their authoritarian parenting style.
>
> Do you (the collective YOU) try to respond to these things?
lindaguitar
Anonymous: I understand how you feel!
I don't know if I would respond or not, if I were in your situation. Probably not, given that I don't respond to the insulting and critical things my mother says to me. And I have never told her how hurt I have always felt that and she rarely comes to visit and always finds an excuse to end phone conversations before I do, and never corresponds with my kids, except to send them birthday cards. (At least she does remember their birthdays.)
A psychologist once told me that I would feel better if I told my mother how I felt, even if telling her didn't change how she related to me. I don't know if it would have helped me feel better or not, as I could never bring myself to talk to her about how hurt I felt.
But, passing along that idea, maybe if you do respond, you should try to explain how his message makes you feel, rather than try to explain why you believe that your choices are the right ones, since it seems like he won't listen or learn. If you share how you feel and he doesn't care that his remarks and lack of emotional support and trust in you are making you feel hurt, you will probably feel better if you have less contact with him in the future. The hurt is still there, but it's less like an open wound when you have less contact.
My mom knew we homeschooled, but I never mentioned unschooling to her. She would have been horrified by the idea.
Now that my kids are in college and have jobs, and my son is, in fact, supporting himself and living as an independent adult, there's no point in talking to my mom about unschooling - even though she would now view my kids as academically and socially "successful". But I do hope that our experience will add to the already large collection of anecdotal evidence that unschooling leads to happy, confident, enthusiastic, interesting kids who grow to be happy, confident, enthusiastic, interesting, and self-reliant adults! So if you ever do decide to try to convince your father by examples, my family is one such example.
Either way, maybe it'll help you to know that you're not alone in feeling hurt by a parent who doesn't seem to love and accept you. My kids know that I love and accept them unconditionally, and that has, over time, helped to comfort my inner child. :-)
Linda
I don't know if I would respond or not, if I were in your situation. Probably not, given that I don't respond to the insulting and critical things my mother says to me. And I have never told her how hurt I have always felt that and she rarely comes to visit and always finds an excuse to end phone conversations before I do, and never corresponds with my kids, except to send them birthday cards. (At least she does remember their birthdays.)
A psychologist once told me that I would feel better if I told my mother how I felt, even if telling her didn't change how she related to me. I don't know if it would have helped me feel better or not, as I could never bring myself to talk to her about how hurt I felt.
But, passing along that idea, maybe if you do respond, you should try to explain how his message makes you feel, rather than try to explain why you believe that your choices are the right ones, since it seems like he won't listen or learn. If you share how you feel and he doesn't care that his remarks and lack of emotional support and trust in you are making you feel hurt, you will probably feel better if you have less contact with him in the future. The hurt is still there, but it's less like an open wound when you have less contact.
My mom knew we homeschooled, but I never mentioned unschooling to her. She would have been horrified by the idea.
Now that my kids are in college and have jobs, and my son is, in fact, supporting himself and living as an independent adult, there's no point in talking to my mom about unschooling - even though she would now view my kids as academically and socially "successful". But I do hope that our experience will add to the already large collection of anecdotal evidence that unschooling leads to happy, confident, enthusiastic, interesting kids who grow to be happy, confident, enthusiastic, interesting, and self-reliant adults! So if you ever do decide to try to convince your father by examples, my family is one such example.
Either way, maybe it'll help you to know that you're not alone in feeling hurt by a parent who doesn't seem to love and accept you. My kids know that I love and accept them unconditionally, and that has, over time, helped to comfort my inner child. :-)
Linda
Joy
I have been following this thread with interest as my in-laws are also not very supportive of home education (they don't even know what unschooling is!).
Someone mentioned something about cosleeping with their kids until they wanted their own bed.
My kids are 4 and 6 and we co-sleep. We have another room with bunk beds in case they do want to sleep in another room.
The prob is that we live in a rather small house (well not that small, 3 bedrooms plus a small room in the basement that could in theory be converted to a bedroom but it would not be very warm or sunny there so not the best place for a bedroom.
Anyhow, the room in the basement is now a toy room adjacent to the family/tv room. The third bedroom upstairs is our office room as my hubby works from home and I also do some very p.t. work from home.
So I was wondering, should I just wait until our kids WANT their own space, or should we create their own space in their own individual rooms now and wait until they want to use them?
The prob is that we'd now have to get rid of the toy room, make that the office and convert the third room into a bedroom and I feel, is there any point in doing that now if they don't even show any interest in sleeping on their own (neither have ever wanted to sleep alone or together in the other bedroom with the bunk bed (bunk bed is a single on top, double on the bottom).
Our main bedroom has 2 queen beds together.
At what age do kids usually want their own space/their own room?
We are also planning (i.e. saving money) on moving in 4-5 years time, so that would be around when my oldest is 10-11 years old.
I wonder if we might just keep our current arrangement until then until they ask otherwise?
Any thoughts on this?
The only article I have ever read on long-term (even teen) co-sleeping is Danya Martin's article. I will try find it, but it seems they are still cosleeping even with a teen and preteen.
So it seems like it CAN be done........which makes me even more hesitant to create a third bedroom now before we really need it. But
some cosleeping families have told me they only do it with the provision that they have those bedrooms set up just in case......which makes me feel a tad guilty we don't have 3 bedrooms set up as of yet, only 2......even though ironically we only use 1 bedroom right now!
Thanks for any insight you might have,
Joy
Someone mentioned something about cosleeping with their kids until they wanted their own bed.
My kids are 4 and 6 and we co-sleep. We have another room with bunk beds in case they do want to sleep in another room.
The prob is that we live in a rather small house (well not that small, 3 bedrooms plus a small room in the basement that could in theory be converted to a bedroom but it would not be very warm or sunny there so not the best place for a bedroom.
Anyhow, the room in the basement is now a toy room adjacent to the family/tv room. The third bedroom upstairs is our office room as my hubby works from home and I also do some very p.t. work from home.
So I was wondering, should I just wait until our kids WANT their own space, or should we create their own space in their own individual rooms now and wait until they want to use them?
The prob is that we'd now have to get rid of the toy room, make that the office and convert the third room into a bedroom and I feel, is there any point in doing that now if they don't even show any interest in sleeping on their own (neither have ever wanted to sleep alone or together in the other bedroom with the bunk bed (bunk bed is a single on top, double on the bottom).
Our main bedroom has 2 queen beds together.
At what age do kids usually want their own space/their own room?
We are also planning (i.e. saving money) on moving in 4-5 years time, so that would be around when my oldest is 10-11 years old.
I wonder if we might just keep our current arrangement until then until they ask otherwise?
Any thoughts on this?
The only article I have ever read on long-term (even teen) co-sleeping is Danya Martin's article. I will try find it, but it seems they are still cosleeping even with a teen and preteen.
So it seems like it CAN be done........which makes me even more hesitant to create a third bedroom now before we really need it. But
some cosleeping families have told me they only do it with the provision that they have those bedrooms set up just in case......which makes me feel a tad guilty we don't have 3 bedrooms set up as of yet, only 2......even though ironically we only use 1 bedroom right now!
Thanks for any insight you might have,
Joy
Joy
Here is the article I was referring to:
http://daynamartin.com/unschooling-blog/the-sacred-flow-of-the-family-bed/
http://daynamartin.com/unschooling-blog/the-sacred-flow-of-the-family-bed/
Troy & Kim Dake
Linda,
I have a very basic question for you about your kids being in college after unschooling. How did you provide a "diploma/certificate of completion" and transcripts to the college for an unschooled child (or did you even HAVE to)? My son went to traditional school through 9th grade, came home in the middle of 10th grade (after failing every course in the first two quarters) and we home-schooled for a bit, but quickly realized that he was more suited to unschooling, so that's what's happened since that time. My family is on him constantly about "you'll never be able to do XYZ without a high school diploma." Annoying yes, but my son may not exactly be college material anyway given his huge learning disabilities. Thanks for your help!
Kim D.
I have a very basic question for you about your kids being in college after unschooling. How did you provide a "diploma/certificate of completion" and transcripts to the college for an unschooled child (or did you even HAVE to)? My son went to traditional school through 9th grade, came home in the middle of 10th grade (after failing every course in the first two quarters) and we home-schooled for a bit, but quickly realized that he was more suited to unschooling, so that's what's happened since that time. My family is on him constantly about "you'll never be able to do XYZ without a high school diploma." Annoying yes, but my son may not exactly be college material anyway given his huge learning disabilities. Thanks for your help!
Kim D.
Meredith
"Troy & Kim Dake" <flannel4us@...> wrote:
How did you provide a "diploma/certificate of completion" and transcripts to the college for an unschooled child (or did you even HAVE to)?
****************
Lots of different options for getting into college:
http://sandradodd.com/teen/college
How did you provide a "diploma/certificate of completion" and transcripts to the college for an unschooled child (or did you even HAVE to)?
****************
Lots of different options for getting into college:
http://sandradodd.com/teen/college
Meredith
"Joy" <joy_bakker@...> wrote:
You already have bunks beds set up in another room "just in case". You might consider other specific needs, like if one or the other might want a special place to store personal treasures. Or maybe a little hideout - a place to have privacy, or read/play a game with just one friend. Those are things you could accommodate without clearing out a whole room.
At 4 and 6, they'll probably want to share the family bed for a few years longer, as long as it's comfortable for everyone, so the only real issue to consider is if you think someone would call child services on you... and then you Have a kid-bedroom. That's usually what they look for, if the kids "have their own room". A shared room for little kids isn't likely to be an issue.
More often, what's an issue with co-sleeping is family members who have such different sleep needs that sharing a bed isn't feasible. If that's not a problem in your home, enjoy!
But I know families where the kids are in the family bed until the early teens, and still come back to the family bed at times for extra cuddling.
---Meredith
>>> My kids are 4 and 6 and we co-sleep. We have another room with bunk beds in case they do want to sleep in another room. So I was wondering, should I just wait until our kids WANT their own space, or should we create their own space in their own individual rooms now and wait until they want to use them?************
You already have bunks beds set up in another room "just in case". You might consider other specific needs, like if one or the other might want a special place to store personal treasures. Or maybe a little hideout - a place to have privacy, or read/play a game with just one friend. Those are things you could accommodate without clearing out a whole room.
At 4 and 6, they'll probably want to share the family bed for a few years longer, as long as it's comfortable for everyone, so the only real issue to consider is if you think someone would call child services on you... and then you Have a kid-bedroom. That's usually what they look for, if the kids "have their own room". A shared room for little kids isn't likely to be an issue.
More often, what's an issue with co-sleeping is family members who have such different sleep needs that sharing a bed isn't feasible. If that's not a problem in your home, enjoy!
> At what age do kids usually want their own space/their own room?It depends on so many things! We set up a room for my daughter in my closet when she was... six or seven I think, because her sleep needs were really different than mine. She'd sleep part of the night in her bed and part in the family bed, and did that until she was... too big for the little bed in the closet. Then we converted another very small room - barely bigger than the closet but big enough for a real mattress - into a bedroom for her. She still slept some of the night in the family bed, and sometimes all night if she needed to until she was... ten I think.
But I know families where the kids are in the family bed until the early teens, and still come back to the family bed at times for extra cuddling.
---Meredith
Meredith
Woops, forgot to include a link - more on co-sleeping here:
http://sandradodd.com/sleep/cosleeping
http://sandradodd.com/sleep/cosleeping
Shelley Candelario
>At what age do kids usually want their own space/their own room?
Interestingly enough due to circumstances in our latest move for my husband's new job. Since my husband moved ahead of me, and my college student son moved back in (to later rent our house with two other roommates) . . . who at 20 yrs. definitely wanted his own room. With some overlap in the changes of who was in our house, my 12 yr old daughter had to come back to sharing a bed with me. She was not thrilled, since I'm an early bird who wants the light out at a decent hour, and she is a night owl, but in the end was willing to help out. I think this is the same reason she began liking sleeping on her own a couple of years before, different sleeping needs. In fact, she is much better matched with my son, who had many a fun night up with her making music and art (they truly get inspired at about 10 pm). So they had a little more time to connect, as my older son and daughter leave the nest. I miss them. I feel like they are two of my
best friends.
Of course every child is an individual. But I think all 3 of my kids began liking some of their own space between 9-12 yrs. But I personally would never worry about them sharing a room. Like Meredith said a little private corner can always be carved out. In fact, I've found that younger kids love small spaces. Like they would love to hang blankets from their bunk bed to have a fort bed, and then 2 of them would end up sleeping in there. My oldest daughter and son shared a room for a long time (probably until 12 & 10 yrs old). I think the American culture is a little too pre-occupied with everyone having their own room and privacy. Maybe that perspective comes from my husband and I coming from large families, but I truly love our closeness and tolerance that has developed from always have a small house.
Enjoy the family bed while you can. Now I don't get much of that kind of snuggle time. I'm looking forward to the grandkids.
Just popped in here with my first comment. I recently joined this list and the Always Unschooling list. I think my moving and leaving my other two children 9 hrs away has me looking for connections, and as a long time California unschooler, these lists fit perfectly. Now I'm finding my niche in Humboldt County with all the incredible young moms.
Shelley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Interestingly enough due to circumstances in our latest move for my husband's new job. Since my husband moved ahead of me, and my college student son moved back in (to later rent our house with two other roommates) . . . who at 20 yrs. definitely wanted his own room. With some overlap in the changes of who was in our house, my 12 yr old daughter had to come back to sharing a bed with me. She was not thrilled, since I'm an early bird who wants the light out at a decent hour, and she is a night owl, but in the end was willing to help out. I think this is the same reason she began liking sleeping on her own a couple of years before, different sleeping needs. In fact, she is much better matched with my son, who had many a fun night up with her making music and art (they truly get inspired at about 10 pm). So they had a little more time to connect, as my older son and daughter leave the nest. I miss them. I feel like they are two of my
best friends.
Of course every child is an individual. But I think all 3 of my kids began liking some of their own space between 9-12 yrs. But I personally would never worry about them sharing a room. Like Meredith said a little private corner can always be carved out. In fact, I've found that younger kids love small spaces. Like they would love to hang blankets from their bunk bed to have a fort bed, and then 2 of them would end up sleeping in there. My oldest daughter and son shared a room for a long time (probably until 12 & 10 yrs old). I think the American culture is a little too pre-occupied with everyone having their own room and privacy. Maybe that perspective comes from my husband and I coming from large families, but I truly love our closeness and tolerance that has developed from always have a small house.
Enjoy the family bed while you can. Now I don't get much of that kind of snuggle time. I'm looking forward to the grandkids.
Just popped in here with my first comment. I recently joined this list and the Always Unschooling list. I think my moving and leaving my other two children 9 hrs away has me looking for connections, and as a long time California unschooler, these lists fit perfectly. Now I'm finding my niche in Humboldt County with all the incredible young moms.
Shelley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
melissa maranda
My dd will be 9 this month and still co-sleeps. If your kids aren't showing any interest in their own space right now I wouldn't make it an issue at this time. 😊
Melissa
Melissa Maranda, MA
Licensed Mental Health Counselor/Holistic Life Coach
Substance Abuse Specialist
Reiki 1 Practitioner
Melissa Maranda Life Coaching http://www.MelissaMarandaHolisticCoach.com
To: [email protected]
From: joy_bakker@...
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:40:55 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] co-sleeping, WAS grandparents don't understand unschooling
I have been following this thread with interest as my in-laws are also not very supportive of home education (they don't even know what unschooling is!).
Someone mentioned something about cosleeping with their kids until they wanted their own bed.
My kids are 4 and 6 and we co-sleep. We have another room with bunk beds in case they do want to sleep in another room.
The prob is that we live in a rather small house (well not that small, 3 bedrooms plus a small room in the basement that could in theory be converted to a bedroom but it would not be very warm or sunny there so not the best place for a bedroom.
Anyhow, the room in the basement is now a toy room adjacent to the family/tv room. The third bedroom upstairs is our office room as my hubby works from home and I also do some very p.t. work from home.
So I was wondering, should I just wait until our kids WANT their own space, or should we create their own space in their own individual rooms now and wait until they want to use them?
The prob is that we'd now have to get rid of the toy room, make that the office and convert the third room into a bedroom and I feel, is there any point in doing that now if they don't even show any interest in sleeping on their own (neither have ever wanted to sleep alone or together in the other bedroom with the bunk bed (bunk bed is a single on top, double on the bottom).
Our main bedroom has 2 queen beds together.
At what age do kids usually want their own space/their own room?
We are also planning (i.e. saving money) on moving in 4-5 years time, so that would be around when my oldest is 10-11 years old.
I wonder if we might just keep our current arrangement until then until they ask otherwise?
Any thoughts on this?
The only article I have ever read on long-term (even teen) co-sleeping is Danya Martin's article. I will try find it, but it seems they are still cosleeping even with a teen and preteen.
So it seems like it CAN be done........which makes me even more hesitant to create a third bedroom now before we really need it. But
some cosleeping families have told me they only do it with the provision that they have those bedrooms set up just in case......which makes me feel a tad guilty we don't have 3 bedrooms set up as of yet, only 2......even though ironically we only use 1 bedroom right now!
Thanks for any insight you might have,
Joy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa
Melissa Maranda, MA
Licensed Mental Health Counselor/Holistic Life Coach
Substance Abuse Specialist
Reiki 1 Practitioner
Melissa Maranda Life Coaching http://www.MelissaMarandaHolisticCoach.com
To: [email protected]
From: joy_bakker@...
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:40:55 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] co-sleeping, WAS grandparents don't understand unschooling
I have been following this thread with interest as my in-laws are also not very supportive of home education (they don't even know what unschooling is!).
Someone mentioned something about cosleeping with their kids until they wanted their own bed.
My kids are 4 and 6 and we co-sleep. We have another room with bunk beds in case they do want to sleep in another room.
The prob is that we live in a rather small house (well not that small, 3 bedrooms plus a small room in the basement that could in theory be converted to a bedroom but it would not be very warm or sunny there so not the best place for a bedroom.
Anyhow, the room in the basement is now a toy room adjacent to the family/tv room. The third bedroom upstairs is our office room as my hubby works from home and I also do some very p.t. work from home.
So I was wondering, should I just wait until our kids WANT their own space, or should we create their own space in their own individual rooms now and wait until they want to use them?
The prob is that we'd now have to get rid of the toy room, make that the office and convert the third room into a bedroom and I feel, is there any point in doing that now if they don't even show any interest in sleeping on their own (neither have ever wanted to sleep alone or together in the other bedroom with the bunk bed (bunk bed is a single on top, double on the bottom).
Our main bedroom has 2 queen beds together.
At what age do kids usually want their own space/their own room?
We are also planning (i.e. saving money) on moving in 4-5 years time, so that would be around when my oldest is 10-11 years old.
I wonder if we might just keep our current arrangement until then until they ask otherwise?
Any thoughts on this?
The only article I have ever read on long-term (even teen) co-sleeping is Danya Martin's article. I will try find it, but it seems they are still cosleeping even with a teen and preteen.
So it seems like it CAN be done........which makes me even more hesitant to create a third bedroom now before we really need it. But
some cosleeping families have told me they only do it with the provision that they have those bedrooms set up just in case......which makes me feel a tad guilty we don't have 3 bedrooms set up as of yet, only 2......even though ironically we only use 1 bedroom right now!
Thanks for any insight you might have,
Joy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lindaguitar
--- In [email protected], "Troy & Kim Dake" <flannel4us@...> wrote:
My son got into college on the basis of SAT scores.
My daughter chose to get a GED, which is equivalent to a high school diploma. But that was because she didn't think she could get the score she would have needed on the SAT or ACT, in math.
I had to make transcripts for my kids. They each attend a "community college", but here in GA, not everyone can get accepted quite as easily as they can in states like AZ, CA, NM, CT, TX, etc. They needed parent-made transcripts, and the GA state college system requires homeschoolers to either get an above-average score on the SAT or ACT, OR to get a GED.
From what I've read, most colleges these days have a process in place for homeschooled students to apply, and they do want to see a parent-made transcript. Most colleges also want to see SAT or ACT scores as well, but I have read, repeatedly, for many years now, that *community colleges* in *most* states will accept applicants without any test scores at all. Those community colleges require applicants to take placement tests, and if they score too low for college level work, the students must take remedial courses first, which cost the same as college courses, but do not give college credit. Many unschoolers have started community colleges while in their teens - or even as young as 12, in some cases.
My daughter, who is dyslexic but loves to read (she started to enjoy reading when she was 14) and is an excellent writer, has always had a very hard time with math. If she were to get the requisite psychological testing for a diagnosis, I have no doubt that she would be diagnosed with dyscalculia - and with a diagnosis, she could get certain accommodations in college. But, so far, she has not wanted to go through the hassle and expense of the testing. (We could never afford it when she was younger; she could afford it herself, at this point, so that option is open to her.)
If you have not looked into the GED option, that might be something your son will want to consider eventually. If he decides he wants to go to a vocational school or technical college, it may make getting in more hassle-free. It can also help in getting some financial aid. The GED tests allow the students as much time as they need on each test; each of the 5 tests can be taken on a different day; and the community and tech colleges and vocational schools are not interested in the test scores - all the GED students need is to have passed.
My daughter, who had avoided formal math learning like the plague until she was 18, took a one-semester online high school level math course (a general "math concepts" course) when she decided that she was going to get the GED, and she studied on her own (and with me) from a GED test-prep book and various websites. She just barely passed the GED math test - but that was all she needed to do. She scored very high on the other 4 tests. She had taken several online high school courses, starting at the age of 16, including biology - which included some basic chemistry. She never took any formal history courses, and I think she only took one semester of high school English (lit/comp), so she mostly learned what she knows of those subjects informally. (She took 2 years of Japanese online, so she had the 2 years of foreign language that GA state colleges require. But she didn't study Japanese for the requirement - she just wanted to learn it because of her interest in Japanese anime cartoons and Manga books.)
If your son has learning disabilities, but wants to go to college anyway, I'm sure that having a formal diagnosis will lead to him being eligible for disabilities accommodations, which may make the difference between his being able to get into and through college, or not.
If your son shows any interest at all in attending college, I recommend that you look on the website of the community college and technical college nearest where you live, and see what they require from homeschooled applicants.
If you have to make a transcript, keep in mind that you have the authority, as the "director" of your "homeschool program" to establish your own criteria for courses that you list. Information learned need not have been learned through a textbook or specific online course or in-person class, nor over the period of one school year. There are *many* branches/categories of science and history. All reading (and listening to audio books) can be counted as literature. I even considered attending plays as a part of my daughter's literature education. We attended a lot of plays!
There are lots of examples of homeschool transcripts on the internet.
Linda
>Relatives who tell your son "you'll never be able to do XYZ without a high school diploma" are just plain wrong. Homeschoolers (including unschoolers) do not need a diploma - or if they do, it can be a parent-issued diploma, based on whatever criteria you choose. Millions of homeschoolers, including hundreds (or thousands) of unschoolers have gotten into college (or vocational schools) without having an accredited diploma - most without having a parent-issued diploma, since that is generally not necessary.
> Linda,
>
> I have a very basic question for you about your kids being in
> college after unschooling. How did you provide a
> "diploma/certificate of completion" and transcripts to the college
> for an unschooled child (or did you even HAVE to)?
My son got into college on the basis of SAT scores.
My daughter chose to get a GED, which is equivalent to a high school diploma. But that was because she didn't think she could get the score she would have needed on the SAT or ACT, in math.
I had to make transcripts for my kids. They each attend a "community college", but here in GA, not everyone can get accepted quite as easily as they can in states like AZ, CA, NM, CT, TX, etc. They needed parent-made transcripts, and the GA state college system requires homeschoolers to either get an above-average score on the SAT or ACT, OR to get a GED.
From what I've read, most colleges these days have a process in place for homeschooled students to apply, and they do want to see a parent-made transcript. Most colleges also want to see SAT or ACT scores as well, but I have read, repeatedly, for many years now, that *community colleges* in *most* states will accept applicants without any test scores at all. Those community colleges require applicants to take placement tests, and if they score too low for college level work, the students must take remedial courses first, which cost the same as college courses, but do not give college credit. Many unschoolers have started community colleges while in their teens - or even as young as 12, in some cases.
My daughter, who is dyslexic but loves to read (she started to enjoy reading when she was 14) and is an excellent writer, has always had a very hard time with math. If she were to get the requisite psychological testing for a diagnosis, I have no doubt that she would be diagnosed with dyscalculia - and with a diagnosis, she could get certain accommodations in college. But, so far, she has not wanted to go through the hassle and expense of the testing. (We could never afford it when she was younger; she could afford it herself, at this point, so that option is open to her.)
If you have not looked into the GED option, that might be something your son will want to consider eventually. If he decides he wants to go to a vocational school or technical college, it may make getting in more hassle-free. It can also help in getting some financial aid. The GED tests allow the students as much time as they need on each test; each of the 5 tests can be taken on a different day; and the community and tech colleges and vocational schools are not interested in the test scores - all the GED students need is to have passed.
My daughter, who had avoided formal math learning like the plague until she was 18, took a one-semester online high school level math course (a general "math concepts" course) when she decided that she was going to get the GED, and she studied on her own (and with me) from a GED test-prep book and various websites. She just barely passed the GED math test - but that was all she needed to do. She scored very high on the other 4 tests. She had taken several online high school courses, starting at the age of 16, including biology - which included some basic chemistry. She never took any formal history courses, and I think she only took one semester of high school English (lit/comp), so she mostly learned what she knows of those subjects informally. (She took 2 years of Japanese online, so she had the 2 years of foreign language that GA state colleges require. But she didn't study Japanese for the requirement - she just wanted to learn it because of her interest in Japanese anime cartoons and Manga books.)
If your son has learning disabilities, but wants to go to college anyway, I'm sure that having a formal diagnosis will lead to him being eligible for disabilities accommodations, which may make the difference between his being able to get into and through college, or not.
If your son shows any interest at all in attending college, I recommend that you look on the website of the community college and technical college nearest where you live, and see what they require from homeschooled applicants.
If you have to make a transcript, keep in mind that you have the authority, as the "director" of your "homeschool program" to establish your own criteria for courses that you list. Information learned need not have been learned through a textbook or specific online course or in-person class, nor over the period of one school year. There are *many* branches/categories of science and history. All reading (and listening to audio books) can be counted as literature. I even considered attending plays as a part of my daughter's literature education. We attended a lot of plays!
There are lots of examples of homeschool transcripts on the internet.
Linda
lindaguitar
Since you do have the bunk-bed room available for the kids, it seems to me that would be enough, for now. If they want to have a friend sleep over, at some point before you move, they will probably want to use that bedroom then, even if they still generally sleep in your room.
Are your kids both the same gender, or do you have one of each? If they are one boy and one girl, I expect they will eventually each want to have their own rooms - but since you plan to move within 5 years or less, there doesn't seem to be any point in rearranging all the rooms in your house now.
Linda
Are your kids both the same gender, or do you have one of each? If they are one boy and one girl, I expect they will eventually each want to have their own rooms - but since you plan to move within 5 years or less, there doesn't seem to be any point in rearranging all the rooms in your house now.
Linda
--- In [email protected], "Joy" <joy_bakker@...> wrote:
>
> ... My kids are 4 and 6 and we co-sleep. We have another room with
> bunk beds in case they do want to sleep in another room.
>
> ... So I was wondering, should I just wait until our kids WANT
> their own space, or should we create their own space in their own
> individual rooms now and wait until they want to use them? ...
Sarah
My youngest son has recently stopped aged 13, my other two both stopped at around ten. I'd just go with what they want, I dont know sny late teens that still co sleep so guess they sll grow out of it at around puberty. Sarah x
[email protected]
Your family should be kept away if they can't be supportive.
The documentation he will need will depend on what he wants to do next.
Nance
The documentation he will need will depend on what he wants to do next.
Nance
--- In [email protected], "Troy & Kim Dake" <flannel4us@...> wrote:
>
> Linda,
>
> I have a very basic question for you about your kids being in college after unschooling. How did you provide a "diploma/certificate of completion" and transcripts to the college for an unschooled child (or did you even HAVE to)? My son went to traditional school through 9th grade, came home in the middle of 10th grade (after failing every course in the first two quarters) and we home-schooled for a bit, but quickly realized that he was more suited to unschooling, so that's what's happened since that time. My family is on him constantly about "you'll never be able to do XYZ without a high school diploma." Annoying yes, but my son may not exactly be college material anyway given his huge learning disabilities. Thanks for your help!
>
> Kim D.
>
Troy & Kim Dake
I really do not find keeping family away a realistic life experience for a homeschooled/unschooled kid... at least in our case. My family loves my son, they are not mean about it, they're just unfamiliar with homeschooling/unschooling and honestly believe that you NEED a diploma. I thinkt's a good thing for him to figure out how to deal with people who may NOT have the same ideas as him/us so that he can learn to navigate life in the big world. If we keep him sequestered from everyone who doesn't understand agree with our way of schooling our son, that sends the wrong message entirely in my mind. He NEEDS to know how to present his side/opinion/experiences. Too many kids these days don't know how to talk to adults and, you know what? Some of these aunts, grandparents know a thing or two about life regardless if they agree with him being homeschooled.
Besides, my son has some very grandiose ideas about what he can do, but very unrealistic expectations in most cases. He thinks I should just "give him a diploma" so he can get on with his life. Um, sorry, no, you haven't cracked open a single book (not even for pleasure). He thinks because he "works hard" at cleaning the house, etc. he deserves it. At this point, he's still very much transitioning from being at school and really hasn't done anything I could, even using a very broad brush, paint as learning at this point.
Kim D.
From: marbleface@...
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 11:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: grandparents don't understand unschooling
Your family should be kept away if they can't be supportive.
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Besides, my son has some very grandiose ideas about what he can do, but very unrealistic expectations in most cases. He thinks I should just "give him a diploma" so he can get on with his life. Um, sorry, no, you haven't cracked open a single book (not even for pleasure). He thinks because he "works hard" at cleaning the house, etc. he deserves it. At this point, he's still very much transitioning from being at school and really hasn't done anything I could, even using a very broad brush, paint as learning at this point.
Kim D.
From: marbleface@...
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 11:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: grandparents don't understand unschooling
Your family should be kept away if they can't be supportive.
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"Troy & Kim Dake" <flannel4us@...> wrote:
If they're not being mean, just unhelpfully concerned, then it's good to be able to reassure them - and your son and yourself, too - that there are lots of options for home/unschoolers.
The biggest challenge for families coming late to unschooling, in particular, is that deschooling takes time, maybe more time than there is left for your kid to be 'in school' so realistically you're not going to transition to unschooling but helping your kid transition to real life... which for most parents of mid-to-late teens, means getting out of the way and biting your tongue a lot, because you haven't done enough deschooling to know what "real life" looks like for a young adult. You're still stuck with a very "schooled" view of the world.
Even schooled kids deschool! Employers of young adults note that it takes up to two years for kids to stop thinking and acting like they're at school and adjust to the workplace. Some colleges now recommend kids take a year or two off before college for the same reason. For a late teen, burnt out on school, the best thing you can do is back off and let him rest and recover, goof off, heal, and start to figure out who he really is and what's important to him (or her!).
He's right! You can!
And it's probably the best thing you can do if you're still tied up in a lot of schoolish expectations such as:
Woops! that's the school in your head talking, I'm afraid. In real life, most people don't rely on books all that much outside of a few very specific disciplines. And depending on what your son wants to do, relying on books may be counterproductive. What sorts of things does he want to do? Maybe people here can help you see the other options that exist beyond school style learning... which isn't a terribly effective way to learn at the best of times.
If your guy has been chilling out, staying away from education and doing other things, he's been deschooling in ways that most experienced unschoolers recommend on a regular basis. Good for him! He knows what he needs! And it isn't some kind of "independent study" program, it's a chance to decompress so he can start to live.
If you want to learn about learning, and be a better helper for your son, this is a good place to start:
http://sandradodd.com/connections/
There's more on learning and living with teens here:
http://sandradodd.com/teen/
Some of the teen/college stuff and the following link may help you create a transcript for him, if he needs one :
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum.html
---Meredith
>---------------
> I really do not find keeping family away a realistic life experience for a homeschooled/unschooled kid... at least in our case. My family loves my son, they are not mean about it, they're just unfamiliar with homeschooling/unschooling and honestly believe that you NEED a diploma.
If they're not being mean, just unhelpfully concerned, then it's good to be able to reassure them - and your son and yourself, too - that there are lots of options for home/unschoolers.
The biggest challenge for families coming late to unschooling, in particular, is that deschooling takes time, maybe more time than there is left for your kid to be 'in school' so realistically you're not going to transition to unschooling but helping your kid transition to real life... which for most parents of mid-to-late teens, means getting out of the way and biting your tongue a lot, because you haven't done enough deschooling to know what "real life" looks like for a young adult. You're still stuck with a very "schooled" view of the world.
Even schooled kids deschool! Employers of young adults note that it takes up to two years for kids to stop thinking and acting like they're at school and adjust to the workplace. Some colleges now recommend kids take a year or two off before college for the same reason. For a late teen, burnt out on school, the best thing you can do is back off and let him rest and recover, goof off, heal, and start to figure out who he really is and what's important to him (or her!).
>> Besides, my son has some very grandiose ideas about what he can do, but very unrealistic expectations in most cases. He thinks I should just "give him a diploma" so he can get on with his life.***********
He's right! You can!
And it's probably the best thing you can do if you're still tied up in a lot of schoolish expectations such as:
>>Um, sorry, no, you haven't cracked open a single book (not even for pleasure).***************
Woops! that's the school in your head talking, I'm afraid. In real life, most people don't rely on books all that much outside of a few very specific disciplines. And depending on what your son wants to do, relying on books may be counterproductive. What sorts of things does he want to do? Maybe people here can help you see the other options that exist beyond school style learning... which isn't a terribly effective way to learn at the best of times.
If your guy has been chilling out, staying away from education and doing other things, he's been deschooling in ways that most experienced unschoolers recommend on a regular basis. Good for him! He knows what he needs! And it isn't some kind of "independent study" program, it's a chance to decompress so he can start to live.
If you want to learn about learning, and be a better helper for your son, this is a good place to start:
http://sandradodd.com/connections/
There's more on learning and living with teens here:
http://sandradodd.com/teen/
Some of the teen/college stuff and the following link may help you create a transcript for him, if he needs one :
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum.html
---Meredith
jo kirby
"At this point, he's still very much transitioning from being at school and really hasn't done anything I could, even using a very broad brush, paint as learning"
You don't need to paint anything, but he can't not be learning. You can't see what he's learning apparently, or don't approve, but he is definitely learning. And why did you put "works hard" in quotation marks? Are you being sarcastic about what he does? - he thinks he works hard but you don't agree? Maybe something he's learning is that you can be pretty hard to please...
Why don't you give him a diploma, a pretend one, for all his help around the house. One handmade by you, filled with love and gratitude for all his hard work in your shared environment.
jo
You don't need to paint anything, but he can't not be learning. You can't see what he's learning apparently, or don't approve, but he is definitely learning. And why did you put "works hard" in quotation marks? Are you being sarcastic about what he does? - he thinks he works hard but you don't agree? Maybe something he's learning is that you can be pretty hard to please...
Why don't you give him a diploma, a pretend one, for all his help around the house. One handmade by you, filled with love and gratitude for all his hard work in your shared environment.
jo
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 16, 2013, at 8:24 PM, Troy & Kim Dake wrote:
"I think it's a good thing for him to figure out math."
"I think it's a good thing for him to figure out how to spell."
"I think it's a good thing for him to figure out how to use the internet."
It's making learning his responsibility. Unschooling is about being the child's partner as they explore what they're interested in learning. It isn't about stepping back and letting kids fend for themselves.
What does he want from you when he's dealing with people who don't have the same ideas? Does he want to discuss it afterwards? Does he want you nearby to rescue him? Does he want you out of earshot so he can make his own mistakes without fear that you'll tell him what he's doing wrong?
But it's far more likely to result in sinking.
When parents decide on an agenda for what kids need to learn and set up the environment for them to learn it, kids often learn *very* different lessons than parents expect. One common lesson kids learn is that their parents' agenda is more important to the parents than the kids are.
Schools are set up for kids to learn math. Most kids learn they hate math and hate school and learn little math. It's best to leave the agendas at school.
The Western world has long been divided between adults and children, with children expected to watch and listen until they're "old enough" to offer "worthwhile" opinions. It's not a good atmosphere for learning to talk to adults in. (If some kids are comfortable speaking to adults, it's because of their personality and because they are born with interpersonal intelligence. (See the points about Gardner below.) And because a few kids get to grow up with parents who treat them with respect.)
When my daughter and I would walk down to the center of our town, adults would say hi, but kids wouldn't. Often the adults would only say hi to me. My daughter commented on it and found it interesting. Kids are kept disconnected from the adult world by power and seeing them as less than. It's not unlike when blacks were considered non-people by whites.
I think it's highly unusual when schools kids feel comfortable talking to adults.
It's not so unusual for unschooled kids to see everyone as people because unschooled kids are treated with respect.
His 15. He's been locked in an institution where he's been treated like his ideas aren't worthy of being paid attention to unless they match adult ideas. By late teens people are biologically wired to begin pulling away, preparing to be on their own. Being *still* told they need to shut up and pay attention to people who have better ideas will irritate their biology. If they're treated that way they'll reject what adults say -- good or bad -- just because they want to finally have a chance to explore their own ideas. That's why schooled teens are so surly.
Kids who've been respected all along don't go through that awkward transition. They've known all along that anyone's ideas can be good regardless of age but that adults have a lot of good ideas that come from experience.
You can make the transition to adulthood easier for him or harsher for him. You get to choose.
Being 15 means having grandiose ideas. Support him in exploring bits of them in safe and doable ways. If you ask here people may have some ideas. But his ideas will become more thoughtful the more he sees you as a helpful resource rather than another power figure who is critical of him.
He's not an adult yet. Don't expect him to be an adult. Expect him to be and support him in being 15. When kids first start walking they like to hold onto a finger. You're withholding the finger he needs to "toddle" expecting that lack of help will make him realize he needs to just get up and walk properly on his own.
A diploma means something when a school is accredited. The accreditation means the school is meeting well defined standards that an employer or college can check on.
No one's accrediting home schools. Even if you set standards for when you decide he's done, your diploma doesn't mean anything to anyone who would hire him.
On applications, there's generally a box for highest level of education. Homeschoolers fill in "home schooled". If they've taken a community college course, they can check off "Some college."
What life does he want to get on with? And why does he see you as a road block? Why doesn't he see you as a resource to help him explore what he's interested in?
Books are *convenient* for schools. Books are good for certain kinds of learning. Schools have elevated reading because other ways of learning are impractical for them to manage with one teacher and 30 kids.
A chef, musician, horse trainer, rocket scientist can become great at those without ever cracking a book. But they'd be really lousy at those if they only learned from books.
These two pages might help you shift your thinking about what learning looks like and what to support:
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/products
It will also help to understand Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences:
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences/
You don't need to know your son's intelligence type. It's good to have many avenues available swirling through his life and then support him in exploring what appeals to him in the way it appeals to him. You don't need to limit him to books any more. He's not in school.
If you do want to create an unschooling home for him, it will help to broaden your brush and look more to supporting him in exploring and expanding his world and let go of criticizing him for what he needed to learn to survive in school. He is who he is because you sent him to school for 10 years. Create a supportive nest for him to heal in and he'll recover a lot faster than if you're watching and judging and criticizing him as not up to your standards.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I thinkt's a good thing for him to figure out how to deal with peopleYes, it's a useful skill. But would any of the following statements make sense for a home where a supportive nest to explore in is being created:
> who may NOT have the same ideas as him/us so that he can learn
> to navigate life in the big world.
"I think it's a good thing for him to figure out math."
"I think it's a good thing for him to figure out how to spell."
"I think it's a good thing for him to figure out how to use the internet."
It's making learning his responsibility. Unschooling is about being the child's partner as they explore what they're interested in learning. It isn't about stepping back and letting kids fend for themselves.
What does he want from you when he's dealing with people who don't have the same ideas? Does he want to discuss it afterwards? Does he want you nearby to rescue him? Does he want you out of earshot so he can make his own mistakes without fear that you'll tell him what he's doing wrong?
> If we keep him sequestered from everyone who doesn't understandSo there are only two choices? Either he figures out how to deal with people with different ideas or you keep him away from them?
> agree with our way of schooling our son, that sends the wrong
> message entirely in my mind.
> He NEEDS to know how to present his side/opinion/experiences.Stepping back to allow someone to sink or swim in a situation *might* achieve what's expected *if* someone has a natural bent for that skill.
But it's far more likely to result in sinking.
When parents decide on an agenda for what kids need to learn and set up the environment for them to learn it, kids often learn *very* different lessons than parents expect. One common lesson kids learn is that their parents' agenda is more important to the parents than the kids are.
Schools are set up for kids to learn math. Most kids learn they hate math and hate school and learn little math. It's best to leave the agendas at school.
> Too many kids these days don't know how to talk to adultsThese days? When has it ever been otherwise?
The Western world has long been divided between adults and children, with children expected to watch and listen until they're "old enough" to offer "worthwhile" opinions. It's not a good atmosphere for learning to talk to adults in. (If some kids are comfortable speaking to adults, it's because of their personality and because they are born with interpersonal intelligence. (See the points about Gardner below.) And because a few kids get to grow up with parents who treat them with respect.)
When my daughter and I would walk down to the center of our town, adults would say hi, but kids wouldn't. Often the adults would only say hi to me. My daughter commented on it and found it interesting. Kids are kept disconnected from the adult world by power and seeing them as less than. It's not unlike when blacks were considered non-people by whites.
I think it's highly unusual when schools kids feel comfortable talking to adults.
It's not so unusual for unschooled kids to see everyone as people because unschooled kids are treated with respect.
> and, you know what? Some of these aunts, grandparentsThis suggests a lot of frustration with him. You have a "right" idea of how he should view the world and his view is disappointing you.
> know a thing or two about life regardless if they agree
> with him being home schooled.
His 15. He's been locked in an institution where he's been treated like his ideas aren't worthy of being paid attention to unless they match adult ideas. By late teens people are biologically wired to begin pulling away, preparing to be on their own. Being *still* told they need to shut up and pay attention to people who have better ideas will irritate their biology. If they're treated that way they'll reject what adults say -- good or bad -- just because they want to finally have a chance to explore their own ideas. That's why schooled teens are so surly.
Kids who've been respected all along don't go through that awkward transition. They've known all along that anyone's ideas can be good regardless of age but that adults have a lot of good ideas that come from experience.
You can make the transition to adulthood easier for him or harsher for him. You get to choose.
> Besides, my son has some very grandiose ideas about what he can do,A big part of learning is exploring what someone believes might work. From that they grow an understanding of what works, what doesn't work and why.
> but very unrealistic expectations in most cases.
Being 15 means having grandiose ideas. Support him in exploring bits of them in safe and doable ways. If you ask here people may have some ideas. But his ideas will become more thoughtful the more he sees you as a helpful resource rather than another power figure who is critical of him.
He's not an adult yet. Don't expect him to be an adult. Expect him to be and support him in being 15. When kids first start walking they like to hold onto a finger. You're withholding the finger he needs to "toddle" expecting that lack of help will make him realize he needs to just get up and walk properly on his own.
> He thinks I should just "give him a diploma" so he can get on with his life.Why does he need a diploma?
A diploma means something when a school is accredited. The accreditation means the school is meeting well defined standards that an employer or college can check on.
No one's accrediting home schools. Even if you set standards for when you decide he's done, your diploma doesn't mean anything to anyone who would hire him.
On applications, there's generally a box for highest level of education. Homeschoolers fill in "home schooled". If they've taken a community college course, they can check off "Some college."
What life does he want to get on with? And why does he see you as a road block? Why doesn't he see you as a resource to help him explore what he's interested in?
> Um, sorry, no, you haven't cracked open a single book (not even for pleasure).Not everyone learns best through books. In fact most people probably don't and why they find school so boring or hard. It's likely that your son did poorly in school because reading isn't his primary way of learning.
> He thinks because he "works hard" at cleaning the house, etc. he deserves it.
Books are *convenient* for schools. Books are good for certain kinds of learning. Schools have elevated reading because other ways of learning are impractical for them to manage with one teacher and 30 kids.
A chef, musician, horse trainer, rocket scientist can become great at those without ever cracking a book. But they'd be really lousy at those if they only learned from books.
These two pages might help you shift your thinking about what learning looks like and what to support:
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/products
It will also help to understand Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences:
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences/
You don't need to know your son's intelligence type. It's good to have many avenues available swirling through his life and then support him in exploring what appeals to him in the way it appeals to him. You don't need to limit him to books any more. He's not in school.
> At this point, he's still very much transitioning from being at school andUsually parents need the most deschooling since they were in school a lot longer than kids.
> really hasn't done anything I could, even using a very broad brush, paint as learning at this point.
If you do want to create an unschooling home for him, it will help to broaden your brush and look more to supporting him in exploring and expanding his world and let go of criticizing him for what he needed to learn to survive in school. He is who he is because you sent him to school for 10 years. Create a supportive nest for him to heal in and he'll recover a lot faster than if you're watching and judging and criticizing him as not up to your standards.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gina Rodriguez
This has been an incredibly good discussion and one I needed to hear. I don't really have anything to add, but do have a question concerning the whole diploma issue.
What are your thoughts about accredited organizations like West River Academy who help unschooling parents organize what their children are learning and issue real diplomas?
Gina Rodriguez
Sent from my iPhone
What are your thoughts about accredited organizations like West River Academy who help unschooling parents organize what their children are learning and issue real diplomas?
Gina Rodriguez
Sent from my iPhone
denise metzger
This is too long an answer: but I wanted to share from the UK Unschooling group. I LOVED reading people's soliloquy's re: unschooling/ homeschooling and then i had info w/ eloquent words to draw from. I would not answer long to these questions, unless the person asking turned out to be open minded and inquisitive as if doing research! Then a lovely convo could ensue!
From UK Unschoolers: Today I was asked by someone "I am curious about your decision to
self-educate your boys. Very brave. You have obviously found it to be
successful and they seem very happy and healthy."
Here is my response
It was all part of our parenting philosophy really and really about how
we see life. We wanted to take more control of our lives and therefor
that meant giving the boys more control of their own lives and trusting
them to know what was right for them. We call our way the unschooling
way, as it means that Martin and I have had to unlearn so much from or
own upbringing and schooling. The parenting has been a doddle it has
been our journey that has been hard. It brings up fears and doubts and
pain and suffering that we are dealing with and growing as we go. We
are not perfect and stumble at times but our boys see the real us warts
and all. The most important things are honesty and communication and
being there for the boys to enable them to explore the world in all its
dimensions at a time that is right for them and in a way that they
enjoy.
She then said
I have always believed that my children can do what they want as long as
they are happy and don't hurt anyone else. But what would have scared
me about not send I g them to conventional schools is the fear that they
would then not be able to be happy alongside a world that often defines
success as being able to fit in with or to know certain rules. I
emphatically believe that we shouldn't always follow the norm if it
doesn't suit us or make us happy but it can be useful to know what the
norm is.
I responded
Our boys spend their days with so many different ages and ranges of
humanity, they are self-disciplined and if they need to be somewhere at a
set time I do not have to remind them, they fit in to any social
situation and other people of all ages have commented on how enjoyable
their company is. They are considered very well-mannered and helpful and
go to activities with adults who are amazed at how at ease they are.
They have friends who come over to spend time with us all ranging from 8
to 60 and all feel very relaxed in their company. We do not shun the
world we embrace it as do the boys.
Fondly, Denise
From UK Unschoolers: Today I was asked by someone "I am curious about your decision to
self-educate your boys. Very brave. You have obviously found it to be
successful and they seem very happy and healthy."
Here is my response
It was all part of our parenting philosophy really and really about how
we see life. We wanted to take more control of our lives and therefor
that meant giving the boys more control of their own lives and trusting
them to know what was right for them. We call our way the unschooling
way, as it means that Martin and I have had to unlearn so much from or
own upbringing and schooling. The parenting has been a doddle it has
been our journey that has been hard. It brings up fears and doubts and
pain and suffering that we are dealing with and growing as we go. We
are not perfect and stumble at times but our boys see the real us warts
and all. The most important things are honesty and communication and
being there for the boys to enable them to explore the world in all its
dimensions at a time that is right for them and in a way that they
enjoy.
She then said
I have always believed that my children can do what they want as long as
they are happy and don't hurt anyone else. But what would have scared
me about not send I g them to conventional schools is the fear that they
would then not be able to be happy alongside a world that often defines
success as being able to fit in with or to know certain rules. I
emphatically believe that we shouldn't always follow the norm if it
doesn't suit us or make us happy but it can be useful to know what the
norm is.
I responded
Our boys spend their days with so many different ages and ranges of
humanity, they are self-disciplined and if they need to be somewhere at a
set time I do not have to remind them, they fit in to any social
situation and other people of all ages have commented on how enjoyable
their company is. They are considered very well-mannered and helpful and
go to activities with adults who are amazed at how at ease they are.
They have friends who come over to spend time with us all ranging from 8
to 60 and all feel very relaxed in their company. We do not shun the
world we embrace it as do the boys.
Fondly, Denise
Meredith
Gina Rodriguez <rodriguezintexas@...> wrote:
What would be the benefit? Do you live someplace where you need to do a lot of reporting to the government? Those kinds of programs are sometimes useful in that regard. Or if you're not confident in your ability to create a transcript and you have a kid who needs one, something like that could be helpful.
The downside to any kind of recording program is that it can bring out the "school in your head" - get you stuck trying to categorize learning and weighing some kinds of learning as more valuable than others because it's easier to report.
There are a couple recording programs listed here, with commentary by Brie Jontry, who lives in a state that requires pretty heavy documentation:
http://sandradodd.com/portfolio
---Meredith
> What are your thoughts about accredited organizations like West River Academy who help unschooling parents organize what their children are learning and issue real diplomas?*************
What would be the benefit? Do you live someplace where you need to do a lot of reporting to the government? Those kinds of programs are sometimes useful in that regard. Or if you're not confident in your ability to create a transcript and you have a kid who needs one, something like that could be helpful.
The downside to any kind of recording program is that it can bring out the "school in your head" - get you stuck trying to categorize learning and weighing some kinds of learning as more valuable than others because it's easier to report.
There are a couple recording programs listed here, with commentary by Brie Jontry, who lives in a state that requires pretty heavy documentation:
http://sandradodd.com/portfolio
---Meredith
lindaguitar
--- In [email protected], Gina Rodriguez <rodriguezintexas@...> wrote:
What exactly does this program/organization do for unschoolers?
Linda
>When you say "children", you mean teens, and high school level learning, right? I've never heard of West River Academy, but would think that most programs that issue accredited diplomas (when you say "real" diploma, you mean "accredited" by a widely recognized accrediting agency, right?) would be working with traditional homeschoolers, rather than unschoolers. Accrediting agencies do have certain very specific requirements for high schools that want to grant accredited diplomas.
> This has been an incredibly good discussion and one I needed to hear.
> I don't really have anything to add, but do have a question
> concerning the whole diploma issue.
>
> What are your thoughts about accredited organizations like West River
> Academy who help unschooling parents organize what their children are
> learning and issue real diplomas?
>
> Gina Rodriguez
What exactly does this program/organization do for unschoolers?
Linda
Shelley Candelario
> (when you say "real" diploma, you mean "accredited" by a widely recognized accrediting agency, right?)
does anyone necessarily need an accredited diploma? many private schools aren't accredited. I have two unschoolers in college now, and most colleges will look at SAT, ACT, and AP scores, so the diploma and GPA are just a part of the equation to get accepted. I don't see why you can't just make your own diploma as an unschooler. at least in California, you can become a private school and have freedom as private schools do. although truthfully, I just stayed underground so I didn't have to answer to anyone. I don't see how the government has a right to be involved in my children's education.
Shelley
________________________________
From: lindaguitar <lindaguitar@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 12:05 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: grandparents don't understand unschooling
--- In mailto:unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com, Gina Rodriguez <rodriguezintexas@...> wrote:
>
> This has been an incredibly good discussion and one I needed to hear.
> I don't really have anything to add, but do have a question
> concerning the whole diploma issue.
>
> What are your thoughts about accredited organizations like West River
> Academy who help unschooling parents organize what their children are
> learning and issue real diplomas?
>
> Gina Rodriguez
When you say "children", you mean teens, and high school level learning, right? I've never heard of West River Academy, would be working with traditional homeschoolers, rather than unschoolers. Accrediting agencies do have certain very specific requirements for high schools that want to grant accredited diplomas.
What exactly does this program/organization do for unschoolers?
Linda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Shelley Candelario <shelleycandelario@...> wrote:
A fantastic source of general home education resources is a site called "A to Zs Home's Cool"
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/index.htm#.UevhsI0seSo
- it is Vast! and full of useful stuff. It's not unschooling-specific, though, so you'll need to do some selective weeding.
Here's a diploma template:
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/olderkids/Diploma.htm
Portfolio resources:
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/olderkids/Portfolios.htm
Transcript resources:
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/olderkids/Transcripts.htm
None of that will help anyone unschool, though, and the portfolio and transcript resources could impede unschooling for families still deschooling. Don't even look if you think it's likely you'll stress out and start pressuring your kids to do things which will look good on a transcript.
---Meredith
>> does anyone necessarily need an accredited diploma?A diploma itself is a pretty empty document, "accredited" or not - it's less meaningful than something like a GED or the graduation tests which exist in some places, and those tests aren't all that meaningful to begin with. A transcript is more meaningful - and some colleges will want one, but you can also create your own. And if creating your own seems overwhelming, there are homeschooling resources to help.
A fantastic source of general home education resources is a site called "A to Zs Home's Cool"
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/index.htm#.UevhsI0seSo
- it is Vast! and full of useful stuff. It's not unschooling-specific, though, so you'll need to do some selective weeding.
Here's a diploma template:
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/olderkids/Diploma.htm
Portfolio resources:
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/olderkids/Portfolios.htm
Transcript resources:
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/olderkids/Transcripts.htm
None of that will help anyone unschool, though, and the portfolio and transcript resources could impede unschooling for families still deschooling. Don't even look if you think it's likely you'll stress out and start pressuring your kids to do things which will look good on a transcript.
---Meredith
Shelley Candelario
Meredith <plaidpanties666@......> wrote:
Thanks Meredith. I'll put the links you posted away in case I need them for my youngest. She's less interested in college though.
I second the not looking at the organization of transcripts or diploma, if you aren't fully comfortable with unschooling yet. It is easy to turn what the kids choose to do from being passionate into educationese later, when and if they choose to move on to college.
Shelley
>>None of that will help anyone unschool, though, and the portfolio and transcript resources could impede unschooling for families still deschooling. Don't even look if you think it's likely you'll stress out and start pressuring your kids to do things which will look good on a transcript.
Thanks Meredith. I'll put the links you posted away in case I need them for my youngest. She's less interested in college though.
I second the not looking at the organization of transcripts or diploma, if you aren't fully comfortable with unschooling yet. It is easy to turn what the kids choose to do from being passionate into educationese later, when and if they choose to move on to college.
Shelley
Gina
Do they really need a diploma? I guess it depends on what your child wants to do and where they want to go and what is required. Some kids won't know that until later on, so it wouldn't hurt to have one just to keep their options open, I guess. I don't think it would hurt not to have one, either as there are other ways of achieving the same things.
I'm in Texas where there is no oversight, but I can see how a service like this might be helpful for those who live in states with tighter restrictions.
Gina
Sent from my iPad
I'm in Texas where there is no oversight, but I can see how a service like this might be helpful for those who live in states with tighter restrictions.
Gina
Sent from my iPad