How this list works
Joyce Fetteroll
The Unschooling Basics list is different from what new members are likely to expect from a list.
While this list looks like a place where members support each other, it isn't. Primarily it offers what life looks like when the relationship and learning are put first. The way it does that is by 1) offering examples from members who have been doing that successfully and 2) by pulling ideas apart to analyze how well they'll fit with a goal to put relationship and learning first: How will they support or tear at relationships? How will they support or block a child's free exploration? What are better approaches that avoid the pitfalls.
It's assumed everyone here has access to conventional answers to parenting problems. They're everywhere. Your friends offer them. Any mother group offers them. Thousands of books offer them. You probably grew up with them. It's assumed people don't want their time wasted with answers that are everywhere.
What if a child refuses to potty train?
What if a child isn't reading by 10?
What if a child is biting?
What if the kids are fighting?
What if the kids play video games all day?
What if the kids won't help clean up?
Other places will offer a dozen approaches from harsh to bribery to gentle persuasion. But all focus on moving the child as quickly as possible from his wrong understanding to mom's right understanding.
So what does mom's response look like when her relationship with her child and opening the world to support the child's curiosity is put first?
That's what this list offers.
It's natural to assume all groups will be "Come on in! Glad you're here. Have a cup of tea. Tell us about yourself. We're all here to share." But it's NOT a safe assumption. Not here. Not anywhere online or in real life. Groups gather for different purposes not just social ones. As with ANY group -- online or in real life -- it's a good idea to hang back for a while to get a feel for how the group runs and its purpose.
If someone expects a social group and finds something different, it's polite NOT to rail at those who enjoy the group or the people who are providing what they enjoy. It's polite to find something that better suits your needs.
All kids learn differently. And parents too! This list is a perfect fit for those who love to analyze ideas and for those who have decided to put relationship and learning first and want help to do that. It can be an uncomfortable place for those who are looking for a support group. If you try out a group that doesn't meet your needs it's polite to quietly move on in search of one that does.
Joyce
While this list looks like a place where members support each other, it isn't. Primarily it offers what life looks like when the relationship and learning are put first. The way it does that is by 1) offering examples from members who have been doing that successfully and 2) by pulling ideas apart to analyze how well they'll fit with a goal to put relationship and learning first: How will they support or tear at relationships? How will they support or block a child's free exploration? What are better approaches that avoid the pitfalls.
It's assumed everyone here has access to conventional answers to parenting problems. They're everywhere. Your friends offer them. Any mother group offers them. Thousands of books offer them. You probably grew up with them. It's assumed people don't want their time wasted with answers that are everywhere.
What if a child refuses to potty train?
What if a child isn't reading by 10?
What if a child is biting?
What if the kids are fighting?
What if the kids play video games all day?
What if the kids won't help clean up?
Other places will offer a dozen approaches from harsh to bribery to gentle persuasion. But all focus on moving the child as quickly as possible from his wrong understanding to mom's right understanding.
So what does mom's response look like when her relationship with her child and opening the world to support the child's curiosity is put first?
That's what this list offers.
It's natural to assume all groups will be "Come on in! Glad you're here. Have a cup of tea. Tell us about yourself. We're all here to share." But it's NOT a safe assumption. Not here. Not anywhere online or in real life. Groups gather for different purposes not just social ones. As with ANY group -- online or in real life -- it's a good idea to hang back for a while to get a feel for how the group runs and its purpose.
If someone expects a social group and finds something different, it's polite NOT to rail at those who enjoy the group or the people who are providing what they enjoy. It's polite to find something that better suits your needs.
All kids learn differently. And parents too! This list is a perfect fit for those who love to analyze ideas and for those who have decided to put relationship and learning first and want help to do that. It can be an uncomfortable place for those who are looking for a support group. If you try out a group that doesn't meet your needs it's polite to quietly move on in search of one that does.
Joyce
msmandytaylor
I read the info you posted below when joining the group. I am familiar with "questioning the things that I already know".I am not, however interested in anger that goes along with the answers. I'm all for alternative living and getting answers, but would prefer to see real answers, not just angry opinions,
I can't be part of a group that uses hate when parents are searching for honest answers. There is a way to be honest, helpful, AND kind. Which is not sugar coating the topic, it's just being able to be present and have a bit of human decency.
Mandy
I can't be part of a group that uses hate when parents are searching for honest answers. There is a way to be honest, helpful, AND kind. Which is not sugar coating the topic, it's just being able to be present and have a bit of human decency.
Mandy
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> The Unschooling Basics list is different from what new members are likely to expect from a list.
>
> While this list looks like a place where members support each other, it isn't. Primarily it offers what life looks like when the relationship and learning are put first. The way it does that is by 1) offering examples from members who have been doing that successfully and 2) by pulling ideas apart to analyze how well they'll fit with a goal to put relationship and learning first: How will they support or tear at relationships? How will they support or block a child's free exploration? What are better approaches that avoid the pitfalls.
>
> It's assumed everyone here has access to conventional answers to parenting problems. They're everywhere. Your friends offer them. Any mother group offers them. Thousands of books offer them. You probably grew up with them. It's assumed people don't want their time wasted with answers that are everywhere.
>
> What if a child refuses to potty train?
> What if a child isn't reading by 10?
> What if a child is biting?
> What if the kids are fighting?
> What if the kids play video games all day?
> What if the kids won't help clean up?
>
> Other places will offer a dozen approaches from harsh to bribery to gentle persuasion. But all focus on moving the child as quickly as possible from his wrong understanding to mom's right understanding.
>
> So what does mom's response look like when her relationship with her child and opening the world to support the child's curiosity is put first?
>
> That's what this list offers.
>
> It's natural to assume all groups will be "Come on in! Glad you're here. Have a cup of tea. Tell us about yourself. We're all here to share." But it's NOT a safe assumption. Not here. Not anywhere online or in real life. Groups gather for different purposes not just social ones. As with ANY group -- online or in real life -- it's a good idea to hang back for a while to get a feel for how the group runs and its purpose.
>
> If someone expects a social group and finds something different, it's polite NOT to rail at those who enjoy the group or the people who are providing what they enjoy. It's polite to find something that better suits your needs.
>
> All kids learn differently. And parents too! This list is a perfect fit for those who love to analyze ideas and for those who have decided to put relationship and learning first and want help to do that. It can be an uncomfortable place for those who are looking for a support group. If you try out a group that doesn't meet your needs it's polite to quietly move on in search of one that does.
>
> Joyce
>
Amber Ripoll
The problem is there are not "real answers" to most of the problems people
post about. Every child is different and every family is different. We
are here to offer each other ideas/opinions based on a shared ideology.
When people are constantly told by most of society that their view point
(unschooling) is wrong they tend to get angry and pushy about it. They are
trying hard to get you to understand their point of view and listen to what
they have to say. It doesn't work. People who subscribe to the
unschooling philosophy know in their heart that this method doesn't work
but they want so desperately to be understood! In my experience a lot of
online radical unschooling groups tend to get nasty. I too wish that
wasn't the way.
Amber Rose
Mother, Wife, Lover of Life.
post about. Every child is different and every family is different. We
are here to offer each other ideas/opinions based on a shared ideology.
When people are constantly told by most of society that their view point
(unschooling) is wrong they tend to get angry and pushy about it. They are
trying hard to get you to understand their point of view and listen to what
they have to say. It doesn't work. People who subscribe to the
unschooling philosophy know in their heart that this method doesn't work
but they want so desperately to be understood! In my experience a lot of
online radical unschooling groups tend to get nasty. I too wish that
wasn't the way.
Amber Rose
Mother, Wife, Lover of Life.
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 6:18 AM, msmandytaylor <msmandytaylor@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
>
> I read the info you posted below when joining the group. I am familiar
> with "questioning the things that I already know".I am not, however
> interested in anger that goes along with the answers. I'm all for
> alternative living and getting answers, but would prefer to see real
> answers, not just angry opinions,
>
> I can't be part of a group that uses hate when parents are searching for
> honest answers. There is a way to be honest, helpful, AND kind. Which is
> not sugar coating the topic, it's just being able to be present and have a
> bit of human decency.
>
> Mandy
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 18, 2013, at 8:18 AM, msmandytaylor wrote:
There's similar writing on the front page of the Yahoo groups. But since you didn't get how the list works from that writing, it obviously wasn't effective.
The concept of how this list works is *SO* *SO* difficult to explain in words -- especially when someone is locked into the idea that groups must be for support (without being aware of it) -- that I keep challenging myself to make it clearer.
Once people get it, they understand. But I don't believe I've once seen someone get how the list works from the explanations people have written over the 17+ years I've been participating in such analysis groups.
That's another confusing thing about this list. Answers are directed at everyone reading not solely at the original poster. So what you aren't familiar with is using posted ideas as a jumping off point for analysis.
The analysis is not everyone's cup of tea. Some people prefer social give and take. But this list is built around providing analysis for those who do like it. Some people who don't like having their own ideas analyzed sometimes like to read analysis of other people's ideas. And some people find the whole process uncomfortable. If someone prefers Chinese, they don't go to a pizza parlor. And they especially don't get angry at the pizza place owners for not serving Chinese!
What's valuable about the list is many people writing in different ways about the same ideas of how to live life AND grow relationships and support exploration. If someone doesn't like one person's voice, there's a half dozen or a dozen people saying the same thing but with different styles.
I *am*, though, seeing anger in response to my analysis. I wasn't angry when I wrote it. (I'm still not.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I read the info you posted below when joining the group.You couldn't have. I just made it up this morning!
There's similar writing on the front page of the Yahoo groups. But since you didn't get how the list works from that writing, it obviously wasn't effective.
The concept of how this list works is *SO* *SO* difficult to explain in words -- especially when someone is locked into the idea that groups must be for support (without being aware of it) -- that I keep challenging myself to make it clearer.
Once people get it, they understand. But I don't believe I've once seen someone get how the list works from the explanations people have written over the 17+ years I've been participating in such analysis groups.
> I am familiar with "questioning the things that I already know".That's something people choose to do. Then they might read ideas that challenge them. If they don't like the ideas, it's best to skip them. No one's forcing you to question what you know. People here are, though, using the posted ideas to *offer* the challenge to others who are reading. (But no one's making them read either!)
That's another confusing thing about this list. Answers are directed at everyone reading not solely at the original poster. So what you aren't familiar with is using posted ideas as a jumping off point for analysis.
The analysis is not everyone's cup of tea. Some people prefer social give and take. But this list is built around providing analysis for those who do like it. Some people who don't like having their own ideas analyzed sometimes like to read analysis of other people's ideas. And some people find the whole process uncomfortable. If someone prefers Chinese, they don't go to a pizza parlor. And they especially don't get angry at the pizza place owners for not serving Chinese!
> I am not, however interested in anger that goes along with the answers.It helps hugely on lists like this to read with the gentle tone of your best friend offering ideas. If you read anger, it was what you added in your head. My writing tends to be very analytical. I'm an engineer. Some people like it. Some don't. I suspect you're reading criticism into the analysis and projecting anger onto it as because in social groups no one would tear apart someone else's ideas unless they were angry. But none of that is true. I'm just analyzing which is how this list works.
What's valuable about the list is many people writing in different ways about the same ideas of how to live life AND grow relationships and support exploration. If someone doesn't like one person's voice, there's a half dozen or a dozen people saying the same thing but with different styles.
> I'm all for alternative living and getting answers, but would prefer to see real answers, not just angry opinions,This is list isn't for alternative living. It's very specifically about putting relationships and learning first then fitting the rest of life around it. Alternative living folks can find ideas here that will work for them, but not all ideas will be useful for their own particular goals.
I *am*, though, seeing anger in response to my analysis. I wasn't angry when I wrote it. (I'm still not.)
>I honestly don't see hate. I didn't call anyone ornery or hateful. I may have said an idea from a child's perspective is hurtful. The hurt a child receives from his mother is MUCH deeper and more damaging than what a stranger can point out that a mom might be doing. If you felt hurt by the analysis from a perfect stranger, imagine how deep the hurt might be of your child who trusts you to be the one who puts him first? And if you're certain it doesn't apply to you, then politely be aware that it may have helped some other mother be kinder to her child.
> I can't be part of a group that uses hate when parents are searching for honest answers.
> There is a way to be honest, helpful, AND kind.Then offer that :-) But be aware that if what you're offering isn't putting relationships and exploring freely first, it will be pulled out and held up for analysis. It's what the list promises to do.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 18, 2013, at 9:21 AM, Amber Ripoll wrote:
There are principles that grow better relationships between people, young and old, independent of personality. (As long as people aren't too damaged by life.)
Kindness works. Respect works. Helpfulness works. Patience works. Trustworthiness works.
These are some of the tools parents can use that will support their kids exploring and will grow stronger relationships. Parents can use those tools to make decisions with. They can use them to solve kids problems. They can build them into the solutions.
People here can show others how to use those to solve parenting problems. It's hard at first! It's very different from what we've all grown up with. The standard approach is to see kids as broken in need of fixing. It's hard to see how else to approach kids doing things "wrong" in ways other than getting a child to see mom's right view
But people here can help with ideas. Some people here have been doing it so long their kids are grown. And their kids are kind and responsible. They even pick up their toys. They even will spontaneously pick up Mom's toys ;-)
Yes, some kids of conventional parenting will do the same. But the results aren't consistent. That's because the kids' personalities fit whatever parenting style the parents used. If the style makes the child feel controlled, it's going to backfire.
What we discuss here works for anyone. It's based on human nature not on personality. It works on kids. It works on spouses. Which is why we try to help people understand the inner workings rather than handing them solutions. If they can understand what works and why then they can use the tools to craft solutions that work for the particular mix of personalities in their own families.
I think it's best to avoid getting into detail with those who don't want to understand. Unless someone's ready to set aside what they know, it can feel like someone's trying to rip their ideas from them.
From most people's points of view unschooling is no different than any other epiphany someone might have that fills them with the burning desire to tell everyone so they can be enlightened too. But telling people before they're curious works as well as the efforts of any proselytizer: it tends to turn people off and shut their ears.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The problem is there are not "real answers" to most of the problems peopleThere aren't cookie cutter solutions. That's because children -- people in general -- have different personalities, different needs. Opening the world to children will look very different in different homes. But the *principles* will be the same.
> post about.
There are principles that grow better relationships between people, young and old, independent of personality. (As long as people aren't too damaged by life.)
Kindness works. Respect works. Helpfulness works. Patience works. Trustworthiness works.
These are some of the tools parents can use that will support their kids exploring and will grow stronger relationships. Parents can use those tools to make decisions with. They can use them to solve kids problems. They can build them into the solutions.
People here can show others how to use those to solve parenting problems. It's hard at first! It's very different from what we've all grown up with. The standard approach is to see kids as broken in need of fixing. It's hard to see how else to approach kids doing things "wrong" in ways other than getting a child to see mom's right view
But people here can help with ideas. Some people here have been doing it so long their kids are grown. And their kids are kind and responsible. They even pick up their toys. They even will spontaneously pick up Mom's toys ;-)
Yes, some kids of conventional parenting will do the same. But the results aren't consistent. That's because the kids' personalities fit whatever parenting style the parents used. If the style makes the child feel controlled, it's going to backfire.
What we discuss here works for anyone. It's based on human nature not on personality. It works on kids. It works on spouses. Which is why we try to help people understand the inner workings rather than handing them solutions. If they can understand what works and why then they can use the tools to craft solutions that work for the particular mix of personalities in their own families.
> People who subscribe to theDid you mean does work?
> unschooling philosophy know in their heart that this method doesn't work
> but they want so desperately to be understood!
I think it's best to avoid getting into detail with those who don't want to understand. Unless someone's ready to set aside what they know, it can feel like someone's trying to rip their ideas from them.
From most people's points of view unschooling is no different than any other epiphany someone might have that fills them with the burning desire to tell everyone so they can be enlightened too. But telling people before they're curious works as well as the efforts of any proselytizer: it tends to turn people off and shut their ears.
> In my experience a lot ofDo you think people like nasty groups? Or is it that some people come needing something different than what the group offers? Then they get upset when the group doesn't give them what they expect the group is supposed to provide?
> online radical unschooling groups tend to get nasty.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Beth Ann Espinoza
I don't understand why this isn't a support/learning list. I understand
that some of you have been living this way for years, but to those of us
embarking on this journey to a real life a little support would come as a
blessing, since we are being bashed by everyone we know personally for
sabotaging our kids' chances for whatever it is that others expect them to
accomplish. So, yes an online supportive community would be nice to find.
that some of you have been living this way for years, but to those of us
embarking on this journey to a real life a little support would come as a
blessing, since we are being bashed by everyone we know personally for
sabotaging our kids' chances for whatever it is that others expect them to
accomplish. So, yes an online supportive community would be nice to find.
On Feb 18, 2013 7:05 AM, "Joyce Fetteroll" <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2013, at 9:21 AM, Amber Ripoll wrote:
>
> > The problem is there are not "real answers" to most of the problems
> people
> > post about.
>
> There aren't cookie cutter solutions. That's because children -- people in
> general -- have different personalities, different needs. Opening the world
> to children will look very different in different homes. But the
> *principles* will be the same.
>
> There are principles that grow better relationships between people, young
> and old, independent of personality. (As long as people aren't too damaged
> by life.)
>
> Kindness works. Respect works. Helpfulness works. Patience works.
> Trustworthiness works.
>
> These are some of the tools parents can use that will support their kids
> exploring and will grow stronger relationships. Parents can use those tools
> to make decisions with. They can use them to solve kids problems. They can
> build them into the solutions.
>
> People here can show others how to use those to solve parenting problems.
> It's hard at first! It's very different from what we've all grown up with.
> The standard approach is to see kids as broken in need of fixing. It's hard
> to see how else to approach kids doing things "wrong" in ways other than
> getting a child to see mom's right view
>
> But people here can help with ideas. Some people here have been doing it
> so long their kids are grown. And their kids are kind and responsible. They
> even pick up their toys. They even will spontaneously pick up Mom's toys ;-)
>
> Yes, some kids of conventional parenting will do the same. But the results
> aren't consistent. That's because the kids' personalities fit whatever
> parenting style the parents used. If the style makes the child feel
> controlled, it's going to backfire.
>
> What we discuss here works for anyone. It's based on human nature not on
> personality. It works on kids. It works on spouses. Which is why we try to
> help people understand the inner workings rather than handing them
> solutions. If they can understand what works and why then they can use the
> tools to craft solutions that work for the particular mix of personalities
> in their own families.
>
> > People who subscribe to the
> > unschooling philosophy know in their heart that this method doesn't work
> > but they want so desperately to be understood!
>
> Did you mean does work?
>
> I think it's best to avoid getting into detail with those who don't want
> to understand. Unless someone's ready to set aside what they know, it can
> feel like someone's trying to rip their ideas from them.
>
> From most people's points of view unschooling is no different than any
> other epiphany someone might have that fills them with the burning desire
> to tell everyone so they can be enlightened too. But telling people before
> they're curious works as well as the efforts of any proselytizer: it tends
> to turn people off and shut their ears.
>
> > In my experience a lot of
> > online radical unschooling groups tend to get nasty.
>
> Do you think people like nasty groups? Or is it that some people come
> needing something different than what the group offers? Then they get upset
> when the group doesn't give them what they expect the group is supposed to
> provide?
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<<<<<<<<It doesn't work. People who subscribe to the
unschooling philosophy know in their heart that this method doesn't work>>>>>>
It does not work????
It is working in my house. It is working because I was open to people like Joyce, Nance, Deb, Meredith ( a few in this list) who have challenged my thinking and my ideas. If I did get defensive after they wrote something I stoped before I lashed out at them and I thought more about it, I tried their ideas and I watched it very closely and I could then see another way. A much sweeter and better way. I thank them for taking the time to take apart my ideas and help me see it in a new light. They have helped me immensily in creating a wonderful unschooling life for me , my kids and my family. It does work!
<<<<but they want so desperately to be understood! >>
Does that mean you want people to say they understand and that you are doing the best you can? It seems that if it is not working for you and you insist that people "understand" what you are doing and not help you move on to what will work it is just going to continue NOT to work.
<<<<<In my experience a lot of
online radical unschooling groups tend to get nasty. I too wish that
wasn't the way.>>>>>>>
In my experience radical unschooling groups like this one are wonderful and they have made all the difference in my life and I have been reading them for over 8 years now. I have made wonderful friends in them. They have been a huge support for me. Not in a pat-on-my-shoulder-you-are-doing-the-best-you-can way but in helping me get it and create a wonderful unschooling life for my family. The people that post here are wonderful people giving freely time away from their busy life and family to help others out of the goodness of their hearts.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooling philosophy know in their heart that this method doesn't work>>>>>>
It does not work????
It is working in my house. It is working because I was open to people like Joyce, Nance, Deb, Meredith ( a few in this list) who have challenged my thinking and my ideas. If I did get defensive after they wrote something I stoped before I lashed out at them and I thought more about it, I tried their ideas and I watched it very closely and I could then see another way. A much sweeter and better way. I thank them for taking the time to take apart my ideas and help me see it in a new light. They have helped me immensily in creating a wonderful unschooling life for me , my kids and my family. It does work!
<<<<but they want so desperately to be understood! >>
Does that mean you want people to say they understand and that you are doing the best you can? It seems that if it is not working for you and you insist that people "understand" what you are doing and not help you move on to what will work it is just going to continue NOT to work.
<<<<<In my experience a lot of
online radical unschooling groups tend to get nasty. I too wish that
wasn't the way.>>>>>>>
In my experience radical unschooling groups like this one are wonderful and they have made all the difference in my life and I have been reading them for over 8 years now. I have made wonderful friends in them. They have been a huge support for me. Not in a pat-on-my-shoulder-you-are-doing-the-best-you-can way but in helping me get it and create a wonderful unschooling life for my family. The people that post here are wonderful people giving freely time away from their busy life and family to help others out of the goodness of their hearts.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Dang what I am quoting previous posts is not showing up. |Sorry if my posts are not making sense!
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: How this list works
<<<<<<<<<<
It is working in my house. It is working because I was open to people like Joyce, Nance, Deb, Meredith ( a few in this list) who have challenged my thinking and my ideas. If I did get defensive after they wrote something I stoped before I lashed out at them and I thought more about it, I tried their ideas and I watched it very closely and I could then see another way. A much sweeter and better way. I thank them for taking the time to take apart my ideas and help me see it in a new light. They have helped me immensily in creating a wonderful unschooling life for me , my kids and my family. It does work!
<<< >
Does that mean you want people to say they understand and that you are doing the best you can? It seems that if it is not working for you and you insist that people "understand" what you are doing and not help you move on to what will work it is just going to continue NOT to work.
<<<<
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: How this list works
<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>It does not work????
It is working in my house. It is working because I was open to people like Joyce, Nance, Deb, Meredith ( a few in this list) who have challenged my thinking and my ideas. If I did get defensive after they wrote something I stoped before I lashed out at them and I thought more about it, I tried their ideas and I watched it very closely and I could then see another way. A much sweeter and better way. I thank them for taking the time to take apart my ideas and help me see it in a new light. They have helped me immensily in creating a wonderful unschooling life for me , my kids and my family. It does work!
<<< >
Does that mean you want people to say they understand and that you are doing the best you can? It seems that if it is not working for you and you insist that people "understand" what you are doing and not help you move on to what will work it is just going to continue NOT to work.
<<<<
>>>>>>In my experience radical unschooling groups like this one are wonderful and they have made all the difference in my life and I have been reading them for over 8 years now. I have made wonderful friends in them. They have been a huge support for me. Not in a pat-on-my-shoulder-you-are-doing-the-best-you-can way but in helping me get it and create a wonderful unschooling life for my family. The people that post here are wonderful people giving freely time away from their busy life and family to help others out of the goodness of their hearts.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
What exactly would you like support on?
Nance
Nance
--- In [email protected], Beth Ann Espinoza <iheartsims84@...> wrote:
>
> I don't understand why this isn't a support/learning list. I understand
> that some of you have been living this way for years, but to those of us
> embarking on this journey to a real life a little support would come as a
> blessing, since we are being bashed by everyone we know personally for
> sabotaging our kids' chances for whatever it is that others expect them to
> accomplish. So, yes an online supportive community would be nice to find.
[email protected]
. . . People who subscribe to the
Nance
> unschooling philosophy know in their heart that this method doesn't workQuoting out of context to try to understand. Is that what you meant to write?
> but they want so desperately to be understood! . . .
Nance
mgaze
Sorry to butt in here as I have only just joined this group today, but by the name "unschooling basics" I was hoping to find out about unschooling my two wonderful children from this group, getting advice and support alike. I am not ready to discuss the pros and cons yet as I don't feel that have enough insight to offer. If this is not a group for advice and support then please can you recommend a group that can give me some support in the early stages of unschooling my children.
Thank you.
Michele
Thank you.
Michele
--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> <<<<<<<<<<<It doesn't work. People who subscribe to the
>
> unschooling philosophy know in their heart that this method doesn't work>>>>>>
>
> It does not work????
> It is working in my house. It is working because I was open to people like Joyce, Nance, Deb, Meredith ( a few in this list) who have challenged my thinking and my ideas. If I did get defensive after they wrote something I stoped before I lashed out at them and I thought more about it, I tried their ideas and I watched it very closely and I could then see another way. A much sweeter and better way. I thank them for taking the time to take apart my ideas and help me see it in a new light. They have helped me immensily in creating a wonderful unschooling life for me , my kids and my family. It does work!
>
> <<<<but they want so desperately to be understood! >>
> Does that mean you want people to say they understand and that you are doing the best you can? It seems that if it is not working for you and you insist that people "understand" what you are doing and not help you move on to what will work it is just going to continue NOT to work.
>
> <<<<<In my experience a lot of
>
> online radical unschooling groups tend to get nasty. I too wish that
> wasn't the way.>>>>>>>
> In my experience radical unschooling groups like this one are wonderful and they have made all the difference in my life and I have been reading them for over 8 years now. I have made wonderful friends in them. They have been a huge support for me. Not in a pat-on-my-shoulder-you-are-doing-the-best-you-can way but in helping me get it and create a wonderful unschooling life for my family. The people that post here are wonderful people giving freely time away from their busy life and family to help others out of the goodness of their hearts.
> Alex Polikowsky
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Tam
<marbleface@...> wrote:
(unschooling) is wrong they tend to get angry and pushy about it. They are
trying hard to get you to understand their point of view and listen to what
they have to say. It doesn't work. People who subscribe to the
unschooling philosophy know in their heart that this method doesn't work
but they want so desperately to be understood!"
ie the poster was saying that unschoolers know in their hearts that anger and pushiness don't foster learning/understanding but she feels that nonetheless they get angry and pushy to try and be understood by people who don't understand unschooling.
I can't tell whether this referred to the unschoolers who give their time to this list, but if it did I'd just like to say, as someone who reads here way more than I post, I don't see anger or pushiness in their replies, ever. I see clear and frank examination of ideas with respect to radical unschooling principles, and that's why I come here.
Tam
>It read to me like it referred to the previous couple of sentences... "When people are constantly told by most of society that their view point
>
> . . . People who subscribe to the
> > unschooling philosophy know in their heart that this method doesn't work
> > but they want so desperately to be understood! . . .
>
> Quoting out of context to try to understand. Is that what you meant to write?
>
>
(unschooling) is wrong they tend to get angry and pushy about it. They are
trying hard to get you to understand their point of view and listen to what
they have to say. It doesn't work. People who subscribe to the
unschooling philosophy know in their heart that this method doesn't work
but they want so desperately to be understood!"
ie the poster was saying that unschoolers know in their hearts that anger and pushiness don't foster learning/understanding but she feels that nonetheless they get angry and pushy to try and be understood by people who don't understand unschooling.
I can't tell whether this referred to the unschoolers who give their time to this list, but if it did I'd just like to say, as someone who reads here way more than I post, I don't see anger or pushiness in their replies, ever. I see clear and frank examination of ideas with respect to radical unschooling principles, and that's why I come here.
Tam
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic
[email protected]
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks. :)
Nance
Nance
--- In [email protected], Tam <wifejuliefish@...> wrote:
>
> <marbleface@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > . . . People who subscribe to the
> > > unschooling philosophy know in their heart that this method doesn't work
> > > but they want so desperately to be understood! . . .
> >
> > Quoting out of context to try to understand. Is that what you meant to write?
> >
> >
>
> It read to me like it referred to the previous couple of sentences... "When people are constantly told by most of society that their view point
> (unschooling) is wrong they tend to get angry and pushy about it. They are
> trying hard to get you to understand their point of view and listen to what
> they have to say. It doesn't work. People who subscribe to the
> unschooling philosophy know in their heart that this method doesn't work
> but they want so desperately to be understood!"
>
> ie the poster was saying that unschoolers know in their hearts that anger and pushiness don't foster learning/understanding but she feels that nonetheless they get angry and pushy to try and be understood by people who don't understand unschooling.
>
> I can't tell whether this referred to the unschoolers who give their time to this list, but if it did I'd just like to say, as someone who reads here way more than I post, I don't see anger or pushiness in their replies, ever. I see clear and frank examination of ideas with respect to radical unschooling principles, and that's why I come here.
>
> Tam
> >
> >
> > Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Gina Rodriguez
Read her statement again.
"When people are constantly told by most of society that their view point
(unschooling) is wrong they tend to get angry and pushy about it."
This is clearly what she was referring to when she said "doesn't work".
Gina
Sent from my iPhone
"When people are constantly told by most of society that their view point
(unschooling) is wrong they tend to get angry and pushy about it."
This is clearly what she was referring to when she said "doesn't work".
Gina
Sent from my iPhone
mgroom85
Michele -
I feel like I can help you out in understanding, I myself being somewhat newish to this group...
This group will give you information, your questions will be addressed, and you will find advice (whether you agree with it or not). There is a very broad spectrum of personalities on here and mostly all come to light when someone asks a question. You will find people SUPPORTING unschooling but that may not always mean supporting your approach to it. I hope that makes sense.
And I'm also putting this statement out to the veterans of the group - would that statement be a decent understanding so far as to what this group offers?
I feel like I can help you out in understanding, I myself being somewhat newish to this group...
This group will give you information, your questions will be addressed, and you will find advice (whether you agree with it or not). There is a very broad spectrum of personalities on here and mostly all come to light when someone asks a question. You will find people SUPPORTING unschooling but that may not always mean supporting your approach to it. I hope that makes sense.
And I'm also putting this statement out to the veterans of the group - would that statement be a decent understanding so far as to what this group offers?
Jennifer Hollems
**** I don't understand why this isn't a support/learning list. I understand
that some of you have been living this way for years, but to those of us
embarking on this journey to a real life a little support would come as a
blessing, since we are being bashed by everyone we know personally for
sabotaging our kids' chances for whatever it is that others expect them to
accomplish. *****
It depends on what you mean by support. It helps me to think of it this way -
pretend this is a list for people seeking to live meat free to get vegetarian
information and help in moving away from meat. If you come on and say, "I am a
vegetarian for the most part, but I want to eat bacon. What should I do?" Some
people might say, "Have you tried soy bacon? Have you tried meeting your desire
for salty breakfast foods in another way? Here is a vegetarian recipe for
breakfast food. Etc." That would HELP you move toward vegetarianism. If people
came on and said, "I know - it's so hard to stay away from bacon! What I've
found helpful is to just eat bacon on the weekends. . ." or "you can be a
vegetarian and still eat bacon. . ." That might make you feel better about your
love for bacon, but it wouldn't help you be a vegetarian. This list will
"support" your move toward radical unschooling, but it will not "support" you by
telling you that it's ok no matter what you do. Support in that vein would not
help you to move toward vegetarianism, it would tell you it's ok to eat meat.
(As a side note, I'm not a vegetarian, but this analgy works for me).
When I first came to this list, I was moving toward radical unschooling, but I
wasn't there. Everytime I read a post about bedtimes, for example, I thought,
"Sure, that's fine for them, but we need bedtimes because. . ." And, I wanted
posts to acknowledge that I was doing the right thing for my kids by keeping a
bedtime. But, the posts didn't say that. They said that my relationship with
my kids would improve by my letting go of that requirement. They said my kids
would leI hated hearing that because I want to believe that I'm a good mom. I
feel bad when I hear that I'm doing something that is damaging to my kids. But,
I need to hear it sometimes. Initially, I would dismiss the thoughts of Joyce,
Sandra, Meredith, etc. because they made me feel bad about myself. I wanted
them say something that would make me feel better. But, once I got through that
and started to watch my kids more with what they'd said in mind, I would realize
they were right. And, it changed me.
If the experienced folks on the list had told me that I was ok the way I was, I
wouldn't have changed. This list is to help those who want to change to
change. It isn't to help those of us who want to feel better about the way
we're already doing things to feel better. I think a lot of times we *think* we
want to change when in fact we are afraid to own up to the mistakes we're making
and make changes.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that some of you have been living this way for years, but to those of us
embarking on this journey to a real life a little support would come as a
blessing, since we are being bashed by everyone we know personally for
sabotaging our kids' chances for whatever it is that others expect them to
accomplish. *****
It depends on what you mean by support. It helps me to think of it this way -
pretend this is a list for people seeking to live meat free to get vegetarian
information and help in moving away from meat. If you come on and say, "I am a
vegetarian for the most part, but I want to eat bacon. What should I do?" Some
people might say, "Have you tried soy bacon? Have you tried meeting your desire
for salty breakfast foods in another way? Here is a vegetarian recipe for
breakfast food. Etc." That would HELP you move toward vegetarianism. If people
came on and said, "I know - it's so hard to stay away from bacon! What I've
found helpful is to just eat bacon on the weekends. . ." or "you can be a
vegetarian and still eat bacon. . ." That might make you feel better about your
love for bacon, but it wouldn't help you be a vegetarian. This list will
"support" your move toward radical unschooling, but it will not "support" you by
telling you that it's ok no matter what you do. Support in that vein would not
help you to move toward vegetarianism, it would tell you it's ok to eat meat.
(As a side note, I'm not a vegetarian, but this analgy works for me).
When I first came to this list, I was moving toward radical unschooling, but I
wasn't there. Everytime I read a post about bedtimes, for example, I thought,
"Sure, that's fine for them, but we need bedtimes because. . ." And, I wanted
posts to acknowledge that I was doing the right thing for my kids by keeping a
bedtime. But, the posts didn't say that. They said that my relationship with
my kids would improve by my letting go of that requirement. They said my kids
would leI hated hearing that because I want to believe that I'm a good mom. I
feel bad when I hear that I'm doing something that is damaging to my kids. But,
I need to hear it sometimes. Initially, I would dismiss the thoughts of Joyce,
Sandra, Meredith, etc. because they made me feel bad about myself. I wanted
them say something that would make me feel better. But, once I got through that
and started to watch my kids more with what they'd said in mind, I would realize
they were right. And, it changed me.
If the experienced folks on the list had told me that I was ok the way I was, I
wouldn't have changed. This list is to help those who want to change to
change. It isn't to help those of us who want to feel better about the way
we're already doing things to feel better. I think a lot of times we *think* we
want to change when in fact we are afraid to own up to the mistakes we're making
and make changes.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
What is it specifically that you would like support with?
Nance
Nance
--- In [email protected], "mgaze" <mgaze@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry to butt in here as I have only just joined this group today, but by the name "unschooling basics" I was hoping to find out about unschooling my two wonderful children from this group, getting advice and support alike. I am not ready to discuss the pros and cons yet as I don't feel that have enough insight to offer. If this is not a group for advice and support then please can you recommend a group that can give me some support in the early stages of unschooling my children.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Michele
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 18, 2013, at 1:33 PM, mgroom85 wrote:
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> You will find people SUPPORTING unschooling but thatYes, I'd say that's a very good way to express it. :-)
> may not always mean supporting your approach to it.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 18, 2013, at 1:17 PM, Gina Rodriguez wrote:
That's okay. It happens. I know I'm guilty of doing that. I have to keep a close watch on my pronouns so other people can know who they're referring to!
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Read her statement again.I read what she wrote *several* times before replying. It isn't clear to everyone. I suspect the meaning of "they" isn't consistent. That sometimes it refers to one group, and sometimes to another.
>
> "When people are constantly told by most of society that their view point
> (unschooling) is wrong they tend to get angry and pushy about it."
>
> This is clearly what she was referring to when she said "doesn't work".
That's okay. It happens. I know I'm guilty of doing that. I have to keep a close watch on my pronouns so other people can know who they're referring to!
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 18, 2013, at 10:39 AM, Beth Ann Espinoza wrote:
Or do you mean why can't this list *also* be supportive?
Lists like this one began as a mix of support and analysis twenty years ago.
Which meant some people were told it's okay, for instance, to limit TV if they weren't ready to let go because "they were doing the best they could." And then some people would be told that limiting TV is no different than limiting books to help them get past old ideas that were keeping them stuck.
It was counterproductive. So lists like this one split off so the messages could be focused on helping those who were ready to change.
It's like holding an AA meeting at a busy bar. The two work well separately, but the two purposes work against each other when combined.
Sandra has a good list:
http://sandradodd.com/world
(Scroll down to the bottom.)
Another option is the Radical Unschoolers Network:
http://familyrun.ning.com
The Forums are much like this list. But the Groups are more about social networking I believe. Some may be more active than others.
The problem with keeping support lists lively is that people have a greater need -- read that as a willingness to set aside time for it -- to receive support than they do to give it.
On this list, people are *passionate* about explaining unschooling. Figuring out new ways to explain unschooling is itself rewarding. :-) It's well worth taking time from the day to do. Often that just isn't true of support lists. Answering questions is interesting, but giving support can be more draining than rewarding. So people take less time to offer it. The list gets less busy and they grow quiet.
I do hope you find a support list. IT's just been my experience that they start strong because there's a great need, but they die out because the people willing to write don't find it passionately engaging.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I don't understand why this isn't a support/learning list.Because pizza restaurants aren't Chinese restaurants? Their purpose is to provide different things.
Or do you mean why can't this list *also* be supportive?
Lists like this one began as a mix of support and analysis twenty years ago.
Which meant some people were told it's okay, for instance, to limit TV if they weren't ready to let go because "they were doing the best they could." And then some people would be told that limiting TV is no different than limiting books to help them get past old ideas that were keeping them stuck.
It was counterproductive. So lists like this one split off so the messages could be focused on helping those who were ready to change.
It's like holding an AA meeting at a busy bar. The two work well separately, but the two purposes work against each other when combined.
> I don't understand why this isn't a support/learning list.My question, though, is why should it be? Why should it stop serving the audience it intends to reach in order to be something it struggled to separate itself from?
> I understandMany of the people who decided this list was a good fit for them began where you are. So it's not that those of us doing this a long time have forgotten what beginners need! As a beginner this was *exactly* what I needed. It's that it works best for certain learning types, for those who like to dissect ideas to see inside. That type might not be you. Or you might get more from just reading. Or maybe you'll find a list that focuses on support. Or maybe you'll get something from both.
> that some of you have been living this way for years, but to those of us
> embarking on this journey to a real life a little support would come as a
> blessing, since we are being bashed by everyone we know personally for
> sabotaging our kids' chances for whatever it is that others expect them to
> accomplish.
> So, yes an online supportive community would be nice to find.State lists *might* offer what you need. The focus there might be on helping people connect with each other rather than discussing how to unschool.
Sandra has a good list:
http://sandradodd.com/world
(Scroll down to the bottom.)
Another option is the Radical Unschoolers Network:
http://familyrun.ning.com
The Forums are much like this list. But the Groups are more about social networking I believe. Some may be more active than others.
The problem with keeping support lists lively is that people have a greater need -- read that as a willingness to set aside time for it -- to receive support than they do to give it.
On this list, people are *passionate* about explaining unschooling. Figuring out new ways to explain unschooling is itself rewarding. :-) It's well worth taking time from the day to do. Often that just isn't true of support lists. Answering questions is interesting, but giving support can be more draining than rewarding. So people take less time to offer it. The list gets less busy and they grow quiet.
I do hope you find a support list. IT's just been my experience that they start strong because there's a great need, but they die out because the people willing to write don't find it passionately engaging.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 18, 2013, at 10:39 AM, Beth Ann Espinoza wrote:
State lists *might* offer what you need. The focus there might be on helping people connect with each other rather than discussing how to unschool.
Sandra has a good list:
http://sandradodd.com/world
(Scroll down to the bottom.)
Another option is the Radical Unschoolers Network:
http://familyrun.ning.com
The Forums are much like this list. But the Groups are more about social networking I believe. Some may be more active than others.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So, yes an online supportive community would be nice to find.IT might be missed at the bottom of my previous post, but I wrote this:
State lists *might* offer what you need. The focus there might be on helping people connect with each other rather than discussing how to unschool.
Sandra has a good list:
http://sandradodd.com/world
(Scroll down to the bottom.)
Another option is the Radical Unschoolers Network:
http://familyrun.ning.com
The Forums are much like this list. But the Groups are more about social networking I believe. Some may be more active than others.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lindaguitar
--- In [email protected], "mgaze" <mgaze@...> wrote:
There is another Yahoo Group that I have belonged to for many years. It is called "Unschooling-Dotcom".
( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschooling-dotcom/ )
Different types of groups are helpful for different types of people.
That group is different from this one, and you *may* find it more supportive for beginners. (Not making any promises. Lots of people find that *this* group offers the kind of support and advice that they are looking for.)
Unschoolers have come to differentiate between "radical unschooling" and "unschooling" without the word "radical" attached - even though any kind of unschooling seems like a radical idea compared to mainstream ideas about education and parenting. The other group is NOT specifically a "radical unschooling" group, whereas this one is.
Linda
>Michele (and anyone else who would like to join additional unschooling lists),
> ... I have only just joined this group today, but by the name
> "unschooling basics" I was hoping to find out about unschooling my
> two wonderful children from this group, getting advice and support
> alike. ... If this is not a group for advice and support then please
> can you recommend a group that can give me some support in the early
> stages of unschooling my children.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Michele
There is another Yahoo Group that I have belonged to for many years. It is called "Unschooling-Dotcom".
( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschooling-dotcom/ )
Different types of groups are helpful for different types of people.
That group is different from this one, and you *may* find it more supportive for beginners. (Not making any promises. Lots of people find that *this* group offers the kind of support and advice that they are looking for.)
Unschoolers have come to differentiate between "radical unschooling" and "unschooling" without the word "radical" attached - even though any kind of unschooling seems like a radical idea compared to mainstream ideas about education and parenting. The other group is NOT specifically a "radical unschooling" group, whereas this one is.
Linda
Brice Johnson
------"Kindness works. Respect works. Helpfulness works. Patience works.
Trustworthiness works."
I think this is also extends to all the people on this forum as well.
Little people and Big people all feel honored when these virtues are
practiced. J
Brigitte
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Trustworthiness works."
I think this is also extends to all the people on this forum as well.
Little people and Big people all feel honored when these virtues are
practiced. J
Brigitte
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"Brice Johnson" <bricejohnson@...> wrote:
And assume that people learn differently! This kind of discussion won't work for everyone - Nothing is going to "work" for Everyone! One of the things this list isn't and can't be, for instance, is a place where folks fairly new to unschooling can bounce ideas off each other Without input from longtime radical unschoolers. There's a value to that kind of discussion, and it's totally possible to get to radical unschooling from that kind of discussion - honestly, I wish there were more groups like that "out there" because I think there's a need for them... but I can't run one. I'm one of the longtime radical unschoolers with a big voice.
Another thing this list and others like it aren't good at addressing are the needs of moms who have low-self esteem and poor personal boundaries as a result. This is fresh in my mind because I'm in the midst of discussing it on another list. If you're feeling overwhelmed by all the messages to say yes more, be more thoughtful and kind, it can help to remember that You matter too - be more thoughtful and kind to Yourself. Say yes more to your own needs. That doesn't have to rob your children of anything and it can improve your relationships in all areas of life.
---Meredith
>Yes! and one of the things that helps wrt reading this forum is something that also helps in terms of dealing with kids needs and behavior: assume positive intent.
> ------"Kindness works. Respect works. Helpfulness works. Patience works.
> Trustworthiness works."
>
> I think this is also extends to all the people on this forum as well.
> Little people and Big people all feel honored when these virtues are
> practiced. J
And assume that people learn differently! This kind of discussion won't work for everyone - Nothing is going to "work" for Everyone! One of the things this list isn't and can't be, for instance, is a place where folks fairly new to unschooling can bounce ideas off each other Without input from longtime radical unschoolers. There's a value to that kind of discussion, and it's totally possible to get to radical unschooling from that kind of discussion - honestly, I wish there were more groups like that "out there" because I think there's a need for them... but I can't run one. I'm one of the longtime radical unschoolers with a big voice.
Another thing this list and others like it aren't good at addressing are the needs of moms who have low-self esteem and poor personal boundaries as a result. This is fresh in my mind because I'm in the midst of discussing it on another list. If you're feeling overwhelmed by all the messages to say yes more, be more thoughtful and kind, it can help to remember that You matter too - be more thoughtful and kind to Yourself. Say yes more to your own needs. That doesn't have to rob your children of anything and it can improve your relationships in all areas of life.
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 18, 2013, at 9:15 PM, Brice Johnson wrote:
If anyone has ideas on what would have helped you understand the list better before you got a response you didn't expect, that could be helpful.
Many many new unschoolers so *badly* want and need a place that's a safe haven from the school-mindset world. They want to gather with those who understand them. They want to share how hard this is with those who are on the journey too. They want to connect. :-)
And they assume -- from the list name, from their own desperation -- that this place offers what they need. They don't *want* it to be anything else. They want and need welcome. But what they get is the list doing what it promises to do: help people who want to change to examine deeply what's getting in their way and help them understand what will work better and why. Which gets perceived as criticism and attack.
It might help to see this list as NOT a public gathering place where beginning unschoolers connect with each other.
It will help to see it as a private home. A home owned by Meredith Novak, Kelly Lovejoy and Ren Allen. They've created a space to offer the type of analytical help *they* found so helpful as beginning unschoolers. They've opened the doors for anyone who would like to get that.
I suspect if anyone's kids mistook a gathering at someone's home for a birthday party and the child got upset when handed Legos rather than birthday cake that no one would support the child in reprimanding the hostess for not being a birthday party.
I truly wish the purpose of the list were as easy to grasp as "Lego club". I wish when we point out that they've mistaken this place as something it isn't that it was as easy to grasp as "I'm sorry we don't have birthday cake. All we have here is Legos." But when we hand them Legos, we're called mean. When we try to help them understand the list isn't a birthday party, we're called mean. And then they start railing about how birthday parties are what everyone wants and why can't we be the the birthday party they want us to be?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> "Kindness works. Respect works. Helpfulness works. Patience works.True. And this list is overflowing with that. The people who want the type of analysis that the list offers will perceive the list as extremely kind, respectful, helpful, patient and even trustworthy.
> Trustworthiness works."
>
> I think this is also extends to all the people on this forum as well.
> Little people and Big people all feel honored when these virtues are
> practiced.
If anyone has ideas on what would have helped you understand the list better before you got a response you didn't expect, that could be helpful.
Many many new unschoolers so *badly* want and need a place that's a safe haven from the school-mindset world. They want to gather with those who understand them. They want to share how hard this is with those who are on the journey too. They want to connect. :-)
And they assume -- from the list name, from their own desperation -- that this place offers what they need. They don't *want* it to be anything else. They want and need welcome. But what they get is the list doing what it promises to do: help people who want to change to examine deeply what's getting in their way and help them understand what will work better and why. Which gets perceived as criticism and attack.
It might help to see this list as NOT a public gathering place where beginning unschoolers connect with each other.
It will help to see it as a private home. A home owned by Meredith Novak, Kelly Lovejoy and Ren Allen. They've created a space to offer the type of analytical help *they* found so helpful as beginning unschoolers. They've opened the doors for anyone who would like to get that.
I suspect if anyone's kids mistook a gathering at someone's home for a birthday party and the child got upset when handed Legos rather than birthday cake that no one would support the child in reprimanding the hostess for not being a birthday party.
I truly wish the purpose of the list were as easy to grasp as "Lego club". I wish when we point out that they've mistaken this place as something it isn't that it was as easy to grasp as "I'm sorry we don't have birthday cake. All we have here is Legos." But when we hand them Legos, we're called mean. When we try to help them understand the list isn't a birthday party, we're called mean. And then they start railing about how birthday parties are what everyone wants and why can't we be the the birthday party they want us to be?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<<<<<<<<One of the things this list isn't and can't be, for instance, is a place where folks fairly new to unschooling can bounce ideas off each other Without input from longtime radical unschoolers. There's a value to that kind of discussion, and it's totally possible to get to radical unschooling from that kind of discussion - honestly, I wish there were more groups like that "out there" because I think there's a need for them... but I can't run one. I'm one of the longtime radical unschoolers with a big voice.>>>>>
Meredith You know I love you and love your ideas but I am not sure I agree with that above. There are several lists were a lot o new unschoolers bounce ideas freely and there are few to no longtime radical unschoolers and what I see is a mess or confusion and parents running around in circles. Usually what happens is that a parents that finds a new list with more solid information will then leaves this beginers list and move on having learned very little or nothing.
What I see on those lists are usually either parents who are neglectful and kids are running around without guidance and presence or parents who are clearly not unschooling but for some reason like to call themselves unschoolers. Sure there are some people who will continue to research and find their way but it will not be in that list but somewhere outside of it.
<<<<<<Another thing this list and others like it aren't good at addressing are the needs of moms who have low-self esteem and poor personal boundaries as a result. >>>>>>>
Yes I see that sometimes. You are write and I think we forget that we may need to be more clear about those issues that some parents may have.I remember when my mom was visiting and we had been talking about unschooling. My older son was 14 months old and hit her and I said: "Mom don;t let him hit you!" and she was "Oh that is OK he is frustrated and needs to express himself". I had to stop and talk to her. That was not OK. She went that far with letting him express his feelings. She has a very hard time with boundaries and such.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith You know I love you and love your ideas but I am not sure I agree with that above. There are several lists were a lot o new unschoolers bounce ideas freely and there are few to no longtime radical unschoolers and what I see is a mess or confusion and parents running around in circles. Usually what happens is that a parents that finds a new list with more solid information will then leaves this beginers list and move on having learned very little or nothing.
What I see on those lists are usually either parents who are neglectful and kids are running around without guidance and presence or parents who are clearly not unschooling but for some reason like to call themselves unschoolers. Sure there are some people who will continue to research and find their way but it will not be in that list but somewhere outside of it.
<<<<<<Another thing this list and others like it aren't good at addressing are the needs of moms who have low-self esteem and poor personal boundaries as a result. >>>>>>>
Yes I see that sometimes. You are write and I think we forget that we may need to be more clear about those issues that some parents may have.I remember when my mom was visiting and we had been talking about unschooling. My older son was 14 months old and hit her and I said: "Mom don;t let him hit you!" and she was "Oh that is OK he is frustrated and needs to express himself". I had to stop and talk to her. That was not OK. She went that far with letting him express his feelings. She has a very hard time with boundaries and such.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
ARGH part of the messages did not show again!! I hope it makes sense.
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: How this list works
<<<<<<<<<<>>>>
Meredith You know I love you and love your ideas but I am not sure I agree with that above. There are several lists were a lot o new unschoolers bounce ideas freely and there are few to no longtime radical unschoolers and what I see is a mess or confusion and parents running around in circles. Usually what happens is that a parents that finds a new list with more solid information will then leaves this beginers list and move on having learned very little or nothing.
What I see on those lists are usually either parents who are neglectful and kids are running around without guidance and presence or parents who are clearly not unschooling but for some reason like to call themselves unschoolers. Sure there are some people who will continue to research and find their way but it will not be in that list but somewhere outside of it.
<<<<< >>>>>>
Yes I see that sometimes. You are write and I think we forget that we may need to be more clear about those issues that some parents may have.I remember when my mom was visiting and we had been talking about unschooling. My older son was 14 months old and hit her and I said: "Mom don;t let him hit you!" and she was "Oh that is OK he is frustrated and needs to express himself". I had to stop and talk to her. That was not OK. She went that far with letting him express his feelings. She has a very hard time with boundaries and such.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: How this list works
<<<<<<<<<<>>>>
Meredith You know I love you and love your ideas but I am not sure I agree with that above. There are several lists were a lot o new unschoolers bounce ideas freely and there are few to no longtime radical unschoolers and what I see is a mess or confusion and parents running around in circles. Usually what happens is that a parents that finds a new list with more solid information will then leaves this beginers list and move on having learned very little or nothing.
What I see on those lists are usually either parents who are neglectful and kids are running around without guidance and presence or parents who are clearly not unschooling but for some reason like to call themselves unschoolers. Sure there are some people who will continue to research and find their way but it will not be in that list but somewhere outside of it.
<<<<< >>>>>>
Yes I see that sometimes. You are write and I think we forget that we may need to be more clear about those issues that some parents may have.I remember when my mom was visiting and we had been talking about unschooling. My older son was 14 months old and hit her and I said: "Mom don;t let him hit you!" and she was "Oh that is OK he is frustrated and needs to express himself". I had to stop and talk to her. That was not OK. She went that far with letting him express his feelings. She has a very hard time with boundaries and such.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]