jimmetycricket

Hello,

I posted a few weeks back about the situation between my son (9 years) & his younger nieces. How much he dislikes them being around our place & touching his things, etc. This situation has lead to an explosion of some long simmering tensions between my sister & myself.

My sister has never had a close relationship with my son. When he was born I felt quite hurt by the lack of support I received from her & others & by the judgement I received because I was parenting differently (I was very influenced by the Continuum Concept).

When my son was a baby & toddler my sister talks about how she felt she had to walk on eggshells around me at that time because I was parenting differently & that she always felt that she would do or say something wrong. She feels that this contributed to her lack of an early connection with my son. I think that there is some truth to this & I don't think she is the only person that felt that way. I think that I wanted everything to be perfect for my son & when others interacted with him in a way that didn't fit with attachment parenting I think that I did many times get quite 'prickly'. But for me this was also mixed in with feeling exhausted & overwhelmed & lonely. And hurt at my sister's lack of support for me, her judgement of me & her lack of involvement with my son.

Despite this when my sister had her daughters I gave her a great deal of support & developed a very close relationship with my nieces. In part maybe I did this with the hope that she would become more loving toward my son. This hasn't happened. And in fact I think she quite dislikes him & sees him in a really negative light. She has written me a long letter telling me how she feels & it is quite painful for me to read. Some things she says are just so obviously her stuff - she says that she finds it hard that he's not affectionate (as if you only love people if they fit your expectations of how you think they should be). She struggles because he has no compulsion to be 'obedient' to any adult. And he feels fine to refuse requests for help from any adult - even a perfectly reasonable, respectful request. Which she finds very difficult (sometimes I find this difficult myself).

But she talks about the lack of boundaries that I set for him when he was younger & how rude & unkind he has been & is. And unfortunately I feel that there is some truth in this. I never wanted to say no to him & I think that when he behaved in ways that violated the needs of others that I didn't deal with it very well. I didn't want to be authoritarian & ended up being very permissive.

He is not physically aggressive - although he could be when he was younger. But he can be unkind , exclude people, be rude in the way he talks to others, be bossy, he often doesn't like to share, he sometimes enjoys annoying others, he can be quick to get angry. He regularly talks about blowing things or people he doesn't like up, or shooting them, etc. He can be highly sensitive & can take great offence to something that I would consider minor.

Some time ago I had a counselling session with Naomi Aldort with regard to some of my son's difficult behaviours. She said that I had taught my son that everything revolved around him because that was how I had treated him. And that was how he interacted with others.

He is not & never has been an 'easy' child. He is incredibly strong willed & resists being told what to do in any shape or form. I love my son with all my heart & there is of course lots of good in him, he is smart & funny & insightful (& lots of good things that my sister just does not see) & his ability to emphasise has increased as he has gotten older. As he has gotten older I have tried to change the way that I parent in that I guide more & I do set boundaries more often. But it is a really tricky balance because of his strong resistance to being told what to do he can become very resentful & even less likely to work with me.

I guess I'm feeling really confused. On the one hand I feel that I've been a real doormat with regard to my sister & allowed her to treat both my son & myself in a bad way without standing up for either of us. On the other hand I feel there is truth in some of the things that she says & it triggers a lot of emotions in me. Ultimately I guess I'm worried about my
son & I have my moments when I wish he were kinder, & more generous & more polite.

Thank you for reading this,
Joy

odiniella

--- In [email protected], "jimmetycricket" <lisa0@...>
wrote:
But he can be unkind , exclude people, be rude in the way he talks to
others, be bossy, he often doesn't like to share, he sometimes enjoys
annoying others, he can be quick to get angry. He regularly talks about
blowing things or people he doesn't like up, or shooting them, etc. He
can be highly sensitive & can take great offence to something that I
would consider minor.



I can't help but wonder how much of this is personal temperament and how
much is environmental. Is there any way you can find out? I ask
because certain things you say, like being highly sensitive and over
reacting to things you would consider minor, make me think there's a
hard-wiring component here of which you are not at fault. If you keep
in mind the great spectrum of neurological characteristics, you can see
some people are born with sever challenges and some with seemingly none.
The rest of us fall somewhere in between. Perhaps there are some
stimuli to which your son naturally reacts, like not feeling
particularly cozy with people.

Perhaps if you find out more about *why* your son reacts in certain
ways, you can help him adopt a more socially appropriate response. For
example, when my son was about 4 years old he really disliked the
feeling of a kiss on his cheek. Sometimes my husband and I would kiss
him on his cheek at bedtime or snuggling on the couch or whenever simply
because it's a habit and instinct to smooch that face, kwim? We each
learned to tolerate what the other needed. We needed to smooch our
baby, he needed to not be smooched. So we smooched less and he "rubbed
it in" with his palm. Of course he was rubbing the feeling off, but we
all pretended he was rubbing the kiss in. That not only helped him
tolerate our impulse, it served as a reminder for us that our desires of
smooching our child weren't going to supersede his need to not by
offended by sensory input.

Perhaps your son is reacting as a way of "rubbing it off," "it" being
whatever behavior offends his sensory input. If people talk too much,
or too loudly, or when he's trying to think, ignoring them may be his
solution. If he refuses to share, it may be his solution to the problem
of seeing an injustice in the way his property is treated. I would work
at both you and he learning to identify what the problem is, and then
help him come up with a solution to the problem in such a way that
satisfies his needs and yet is socially appropriate (because that's
important, too). For example, you might discover he ignores his aunt
because the smell of her shampoo or breath is too overpowering for his
sensitive nose. Teach him to converse politely from a safe distance
before excusing himself to go elsewhere.

I do think social skills are an underrated skill that can be developed.
Not everyone is born with the ability to model those behaviors that are
considered socially appropriate, but their behavior isn't for no reason.
It serves a purpose. Your challenge may be to find that purpose and
modify it in such a way that allows him to play by the social rules
more. Not only will that help heal the rift between him and his
extended family, but he's going to want these skills as he matures
because they make interacting with people more effective.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 5, 2012, at 9:58 AM, jimmetycricket wrote:

> He regularly talks about blowing things or people he doesn't like up, or shooting them, etc.

When I read that I thought "9". And scrolled back to check.

> As he has gotten older I have tried to change the way that I parent
> in that I guide more & I do set boundaries more often. But it is a really
> tricky balance because of his strong resistance to being told what to do
> he can become very resentful & even less likely to work with me.

Can you give some specific examples?

As a first pass, it might be helpful not to think in terms of setting boundaries but of helping him navigate reality. If you're tired, you're tired. If he's hurting someone, he's hurting. You don't need to set a boundary. It already exists. You just need to not pretend it doesn't exist. And help him get his needs met within the boundaries.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

"jimmetycricket" <lisa0@...> wrote:
>> He is not & never has been an 'easy' child. He is incredibly strong willed & resists being told what to do in any shape or form.
*************

It might help to consider what his life might be like if you parented the way your sister would have expected. If the last 9yrs had been focused on trying to get him to do what you wanted, do you think he'd be happier? Easier to get along with? If you're surrounded by people with easy-going kids, it might seem like the way they're parenting works better than what you're doing - do you know anyone else with a "spirited" child? That could be a good source of perspective.

>>As he has gotten older I have tried to change the way that I parent in that I guide more & I do set boundaries more often. But it is a really tricky balance because of his strong resistance to being told what to do he can become very resentful & even less likely to work with me.
******************

Learn from what you observe! If what you're doing to "guide" and "set boundaries" is triggering resistance, then it's not working. You need to find more ways to support him and work With him. Set him up to do better rather than putting him in situations where he's going to fail. That may mean keeping him away from your sister and nieces for awhile if they push his buttons.

"odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:> I do think social skills are an underrated skill that can be developed.
*************

Social skills are kind of like reading in that they aren't just One thing, but a combination of things, and like reading, there's a degree of "readiness" involved. So just like a child can know the whole alphabet and not e ready to read, a child can be ready to play on a playground and go to a grocery store, but not have guests in the home or go to a restaurant. And, like reading, people learn social skills in different ways.

Some kids really need to watch for awhile before they get involved, or hang around the edges of things and get a feel for the situation on an intuitive level. But those latter kinds of learning styles aren't as socially recognized, especially by people who learn by jumping right in. It helps a whole lot for kids who Don't jump right in to have their space and style protected - otherwise all the advice, coaching, and socializing in the world won't set them up to learn anything useful. They'll pull into themselves and/or do things which are socially inappropriate to push people away.

---Meredith

Deb

I think joy did a fantastic job identifying the problem with her child. She herself admitted that she was overly vigilant when he was a baby as far as other people interacting with her son, and she agrees with the counselor who said that she set him up to be this way by making him the center of everything.
To suggest that there may be some sort of neurological problem on some spectrum I believe is counterproductive. She isn't asking why, she's asking how. How does she deal with his behavior now. He needs help with his behavior now, not a label.
Joy, did you feel comfortable with the counselor? Do you have insurance or can you afford to check in with her occasionally just to gain some new tools? Maybe that would aid in your feelings of helplessness.. Just a thought.










C






























--- In [email protected], "odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "jimmetycricket" <lisa0@>
> wrote:
> But he can be unkind , exclude people, be rude in the way he talks to
> others, be bossy, he often doesn't like to share, he sometimes enjoys
> annoying others, he can be quick to get angry. He regularly talks about
> blowing things or people he doesn't like up, or shooting them, etc. He
> can be highly sensitive & can take great offence to something that I
> would consider minor.
>
>
>
> I can't help but wonder how much of this is personal temperament and how
> much is environmental. Is there any way you can find out? I ask
> because certain things you say, like being highly sensitive and over
> reacting to things you would consider minor, make me think there's a
> hard-wiring component here of which you are not at fault. If you keep
> in mind the great spectrum of neurological characteristics, you can see
> some people are born with sever challenges and some with seemingly none.
> The rest of us fall somewhere in between. Perhaps there are some
> stimuli to which your son naturally reacts, like not feeling
> particularly cozy with people.
>
> Perhaps if you find out more about *why* your son reacts in certain
> ways, you can help him adopt a more socially appropriate response. For
> example, when my son was about 4 years old he really disliked the
> feeling of a kiss on his cheek. Sometimes my husband and I would kiss
> him on his cheek at bedtime or snuggling on the couch or whenever simply
> because it's a habit and instinct to smooch that face, kwim? We each
> learned to tolerate what the other needed. We needed to smooch our
> baby, he needed to not be smooched. So we smooched less and he "rubbed
> it in" with his palm. Of course he was rubbing the feeling off, but we
> all pretended he was rubbing the kiss in. That not only helped him
> tolerate our impulse, it served as a reminder for us that our desires of
> smooching our child weren't going to supersede his need to not by
> offended by sensory input.
>
> Perhaps your son is reacting as a way of "rubbing it off," "it" being
> whatever behavior offends his sensory input. If people talk too much,
> or too loudly, or when he's trying to think, ignoring them may be his
> solution. If he refuses to share, it may be his solution to the problem
> of seeing an injustice in the way his property is treated. I would work
> at both you and he learning to identify what the problem is, and then
> help him come up with a solution to the problem in such a way that
> satisfies his needs and yet is socially appropriate (because that's
> important, too). For example, you might discover he ignores his aunt
> because the smell of her shampoo or breath is too overpowering for his
> sensitive nose. Teach him to converse politely from a safe distance
> before excusing himself to go elsewhere.
>
> I do think social skills are an underrated skill that can be developed.
> Not everyone is born with the ability to model those behaviors that are
> considered socially appropriate, but their behavior isn't for no reason.
> It serves a purpose. Your challenge may be to find that purpose and
> modify it in such a way that allows him to play by the social rules
> more. Not only will that help heal the rift between him and his
> extended family, but he's going to want these skills as he matures
> because they make interacting with people more effective.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Meredith

"Deb" <vwb777@...> wrote:
>
>
> I think joy did a fantastic job identifying the problem with her child. She herself admitted that she was overly vigilant when he was a baby as far as other people interacting with her son, and she agrees with the counselor who said that she set him up to be this way by making him the center of everything.
*****************

But she has written in before describing how he Hasn't been the "center of everything" he has been required to give up his personal space and possessions on a regular basis. And he's been required to interact regularly with someone who dislikes him and tends to see the worst of him. So "center of everything" isn't true.

Maybe he hasn't been the center of attention in other ways, as well - maybe mom's thoughts on how she should parent have been the center of attention, at least from her son's perspective; or her emotional needs have been the center of her attention and she's tried to meet them by being a perfect mom. That can happen sometimes.

The counselor's comments sound like the old twaddle that giving kids an abundance of love and care "spoils" them. It's nonsense. People can read more about the idea here:
http://sandradodd.com/spoiled

> To suggest that there may be some sort of neurological problem on some spectrum I believe is counterproductive.
*******************

I agree that seeing some kind of doctor or specialist is probably way to big a leap. At the same time, it could be helpful to mom to read something like Parenting Your Spirited Child, or The Out of Sync Child (a great book for any parent of an active child - lots of great ideas!). It can be helpful for parents to learn about different ways kids interact with the world and handle stress even if they don't have Any problems because of the word "spectrum" - a great concept until it got co-opted as a new kind of diagnosis. But the general idea is that people are people, some people are quirky, and there's a sort of spectrum from "quirky" out to "has major difficulties dealing with the world" - in fact there are many spectrums... kind of like if you open a "custom color" window on a paint program and get not just a line of color shades but colors radiating out in all directions. Learning about the needs and reactions of people further along one of those spectrums *can* be helpful to some parents in terms of helping kids get what they need.

But for parents who are likely to jump right to "Oh no! My child has six different disorders!" it's better to avoid that sort of information ;) Know thyself as you consider what sort of information will be helpful and what will throw you off track.

---Meredith

Ramona Fabregas

Hi Joy -
This sounds tricky... Your sister and son might just work it out
themselves. I would trust that your sister loves your son - she may not*like
* him very much right now - but that's a valid response to him. Is it
possible for your sister and son to have their own time together, one on
on? I'm thinking that they need their own relationship that is not
influenced by you. After 2 or 3 days together, they might get past this
stuff. He deserves to get feedback that some of his behavior is not cool.
Your sister deseves an authentic relationship with him and opportunity to
have her own experience of all the good stuff in your son.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jimmetycricket

Thankyou for your responses.

I'm feeling very emotional at the moment. The letter my sister wrote included pages of awful things about my son. Things that he has done or said over years. It is very painful for me & I've spent a lot of the night crying. I've pretty much known I guess how my sister feels about my son but I've not wanted to face it. Now it's all out in the open. And what does that say about me that my son has been required to spend time with someone that definitely sees the worst in him & doesn't like him while I have cared for her & her children? When I was very intensively helping her I would often come away tired from all that I was doing for her & have less to give to my son. He wasn't always with me when I was helping her but when he was my sister rarely gave him her time & attention. I don't know why I did that. She has also criticised my son to other family & friends & sometimes even made unkind comments about him in front of me. At this point I don't think I'll be seeing much of my sister.

I know that when he behaves in a way that is rude or unkind that it triggers emotions in me that often makes it difficult for me to think clearly & respond in a way that is helpful to my son. Much more so when it is in front of others. Maybe it is about my ego & wanting to be seen as a good mother & for his behaviour to reflect that. It is also about wanting my son to be liked & appreciated by others.

My son doesn't always behave in a difficult way. He does seem to go through phases where it is more full on than other times. And he does have friends & he sometimes interacts with people in a lovely way. He is shy but likes to be social with people he knows. He usually does say please & thank you. Sometimes it is not the words he is using that is rude but the tone or the way he says it - & that's tricky. He can also be very sensitive when I talk to him about how he is treating someone. He seems to feel hurt by it & become defensive & to put on a bravado that he doesn't care - when I know that quite clearly he does.

Thanks again


--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> "Deb" <vwb777@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I think joy did a fantastic job identifying the problem with her child. She herself admitted that she was overly vigilant when he was a baby as far as other people interacting with her son, and she agrees with the counselor who said that she set him up to be this way by making him the center of everything.
> *****************
>
> But she has written in before describing how he Hasn't been the "center of everything" he has been required to give up his personal space and possessions on a regular basis. And he's been required to interact regularly with someone who dislikes him and tends to see the worst of him. So "center of everything" isn't true.
>
> Maybe he hasn't been the center of attention in other ways, as well - maybe mom's thoughts on how she should parent have been the center of attention, at least from her son's perspective; or her emotional needs have been the center of her attention and she's tried to meet them by being a perfect mom. That can happen sometimes.
>
> The counselor's comments sound like the old twaddle that giving kids an abundance of love and care "spoils" them. It's nonsense. People can read more about the idea here:
> http://sandradodd.com/spoiled
>
> > To suggest that there may be some sort of neurological problem on some spectrum I believe is counterproductive.
> *******************
>
> I agree that seeing some kind of doctor or specialist is probably way to big a leap. At the same time, it could be helpful to mom to read something like Parenting Your Spirited Child, or The Out of Sync Child (a great book for any parent of an active child - lots of great ideas!). It can be helpful for parents to learn about different ways kids interact with the world and handle stress even if they don't have Any problems because of the word "spectrum" - a great concept until it got co-opted as a new kind of diagnosis. But the general idea is that people are people, some people are quirky, and there's a sort of spectrum from "quirky" out to "has major difficulties dealing with the world" - in fact there are many spectrums... kind of like if you open a "custom color" window on a paint program and get not just a line of color shades but colors radiating out in all directions. Learning about the needs and reactions of people further along one of those spectrums *can* be helpful to some parents in terms of helping kids get what they need.
>
> But for parents who are likely to jump right to "Oh no! My child has six different disorders!" it's better to avoid that sort of information ;) Know thyself as you consider what sort of information will be helpful and what will throw you off track.
>
> ---Meredith
>

jimmetycricket

It might help to consider what his life might be like if you parented the way your sister would have expected. If the last 9yrs had been focused on trying to get him to do what you wanted, do you think he'd be happier? Easier to get along with? If you're surrounded by people with easy-going kids, it might seem like the way they're parenting works better than what you're doing - do you know anyone else with a "spirited" child? That could be a good source of perspective.



It feels good for me to hear this because it is painful to feel that my parenting choices have created difficulties for my son. I did have ideas that ds would naturally learn manners by them being modelled rather than directly teaching them or insisting on them & I would thank people on his behave, etc. I think however perhaps I could have discussed manners more with him & talked about their importance in getting along with others. But as he got older I did do this & I continue to do so.

I think ds is one of those kids that do need to hang back & watch for a while. It definitely takes time for him to warm to people & feel comfortable with them. Even with adults he knows - it takes time for him to feel comfortable in their presence. Some adults don't respond well to that. My sister definitely has felt offended by it. Sometimes too when he is very excited to be seeing someone that excitement & anticipation coursing through his body can contribute to him behaving in a pretty full on way when people arrive.

Joy

--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> "jimmetycricket" <lisa0@> wrote:
> >> He is not & never has been an 'easy' child. He is incredibly strong willed & resists being told what to do in any shape or form.
> *************
>
> It might help to consider what his life might be like if you parented the way your sister would have expected. If the last 9yrs had been focused on trying to get him to do what you wanted, do you think he'd be happier? Easier to get along with? If you're surrounded by people with easy-going kids, it might seem like the way they're parenting works better than what you're doing - do you know anyone else with a "spirited" child? That could be a good source of perspective.
>
> >>As he has gotten older I have tried to change the way that I parent in that I guide more & I do set boundaries more often. But it is a really tricky balance because of his strong resistance to being told what to do he can become very resentful & even less likely to work with me.
> ******************
>
> Learn from what you observe! If what you're doing to "guide" and "set boundaries" is triggering resistance, then it's not working. You need to find more ways to support him and work With him. Set him up to do better rather than putting him in situations where he's going to fail. That may mean keeping him away from your sister and nieces for awhile if they push his buttons.
>
> "odiniella" <hgaimari@> wrote:> I do think social skills are an underrated skill that can be developed.
> *************
>
> Social skills are kind of like reading in that they aren't just One thing, but a combination of things, and like reading, there's a degree of "readiness" involved. So just like a child can know the whole alphabet and not e ready to read, a child can be ready to play on a playground and go to a grocery store, but not have guests in the home or go to a restaurant. And, like reading, people learn social skills in different ways.
>
> Some kids really need to watch for awhile before they get involved, or hang around the edges of things and get a feel for the situation on an intuitive level. But those latter kinds of learning styles aren't as socially recognized, especially by people who learn by jumping right in. It helps a whole lot for kids who Don't jump right in to have their space and style protected - otherwise all the advice, coaching, and socializing in the world won't set them up to learn anything useful. They'll pull into themselves and/or do things which are socially inappropriate to push people away.
>
> ---Meredith
>

jimmetycricket

Hi Joyce,
Yes he is 9 yrs I've made a typo in my previous post.

An example of a boundary setting that I wouldn't have done in the past;

My son has a close friend that he loves spending time with but his friend has a younger sister that he can sometimes be unkind to & exclude from play. I have tried to discourage my son from excluding her but saw that this was not helping the situation. So we encourage both boys to talk to the younger girl in a way that is kind. So that they respectfully communicate their desire for alone time without being mean. We also encourage them to ask one of us for help if they need it. One day despite my asking him several times to speak kindly to her (combined with her mothers & my efforts to keep her occupied so they could have space) he kept speaking rudely to her. So I said one more time & we're leaving. He did it one more time & as soon as it was possible we left (I was in the middle of cooking a BBQ lunch for us all but we had planned on spending the whole afternoon together). We were still there for about 20 mins before we left , he cried & was very angry with me. When he calmed down he played with the younger girl & was very sweet with her. Anyway we left & spoke more about it on the way home until he became angry & didn't want to discuss it anymore.

In the past I would have just talked about it, perhaps several times. And when that obviously wasn't helping I may have partly let it go (while probably playing with the girl myself) & discussed it afterwards. I would not have threatened to leave & then carried it out. While it seemed to help in the short term he is resentful about it. The little girl was so happy when he was kind to her that she made a lovely card for him but he doesn't want it in the house. Sometimes he has fun with her as she, like him, is very active whereas the older boy is not. So sometimes he may tree climb & run about with her until he's had enough & then go back to excluding her. He'll also use her DS for long periods of time but has refused to let her play with some old toy of his that he rarely uses. If I point out to him that this is not a kind way to treat someone he can feel hurt & become very defensive.

Sometimes I feel very frustrated with this. One time we were talking about these matters & he said, But I don't want to be kind - you want me to be but I don't. I just felt despairing when he said that. How can you not want to be kind? I really am not sure how to deal with this, how to guide him.

I'm very interested in what you've said Joyce about helping him to navigate reality. Could you please help me to understand better what you mean by that?

Thank you

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 5, 2012, at 9:58 AM, jimmetycricket wrote:
>
> > He regularly talks about blowing things or people he doesn't like up, or shooting them, etc.
>
> When I read that I thought "9". And scrolled back to check.
>
> > As he has gotten older I have tried to change the way that I parent
> > in that I guide more & I do set boundaries more often. But it is a really
> > tricky balance because of his strong resistance to being told what to do
> > he can become very resentful & even less likely to work with me.
>
> Can you give some specific examples?
>
> As a first pass, it might be helpful not to think in terms of setting boundaries but of helping him navigate reality. If you're tired, you're tired. If he's hurting someone, he's hurting. You don't need to set a boundary. It already exists. You just need to not pretend it doesn't exist. And help him get his needs met within the boundaries.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Schuyler

>>Your sister deseves an authentic relationship with him and opportunity tohave her own experience of all the good stuff in your son.<<

I once told my brother that I'd like a relationship with him. I was saying that I wanted to be closer to him, have more frequent conversations, etcetera, but what I said was that I wanted to have a relationship with him. He said, "We have a relationship, this one."

Joy's sister has a relationship with Joy's son. Whether or not it's mediated through her relationship with Joy, she hasn't chosen to make it anything other than what it is. Locking them together in a room until they can get along suggests a couple of interesting ideas. One, that they are equal. That Joy's 9 year old son is equally at fault for not making a good relationship with his grown-up aunt as she is and is equally capable to reach out to her and bond with her as she is with him. It seems to me that the two of them may be quite alike in not wanting to reach beyond their comfort zone to someone else. They may not want to be kind. Two, that it is a good idea to entrust your child in the care of someone who has a clear dislike for them in the hopes that they will learn to love them as you do. Three, that enforced time with someone produces fondness, we already know that the time that the cousins are spending together isn't making them fonder of each
other, if past experience is anything to go by it is unlikely to work out as you might hope. Four, that the relationship that they do have is somehow inauthentic. Some folks just don't get along. Simon and Linnaea aren't terribly fond of my father. He moves large and takes up lots of space and isn't particularly good at making room for other people. That is how they feel. That is authentic and real. Joy's sister's dislike of Joy's son may be a true and honest dislike of him. There may be other mitigating circumstances, but pushing the two of them into a weekend away together is unlikely to get them embracing and laughing and loving. Fifth, the idea that Joy's son deserves to get feedback from someone who has demonstrated both a lack of consideration for him and a lack of tolerance for him is probably not one that is going to nurture change in his behaviour. Telling someone something isn't cool is one thing, but ranting, going on and on, writing pages
and pages of evidence on poor form shown, is a really bad way to align their thinking with yours. And is indicative of someone who has so lost their cool and their perspective on something that their opinion is probably no longer reliable.

No one deserves a good relationship with someone else, they earn it, they make it, the work on it, but they don't deserve it. 

Schuyler

___________________________

Hi Joy -
This sounds tricky... Your sister and son might just work it out
themselves. I would trust that your sister loves your son - she may not*like
* him very much right now - but that's a valid response to him. Is it
possible for your sister and son to have their own time together, one on
on? I'm thinking that they need their own relationship that is not
influenced by you. After 2 or 3 days together, they might get past this
stuff. He deserves to get feedback that some of his behavior is not cool.
Your sister deseves an authentic relationship with him and opportunity to
have her own experience of all the good stuff in your son. 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ramona Fabregas

Schuyler - You are probably right about all this... it just sounded a bit
triangulated. Thanks for the reality check! :)
On Apr 6, 2012 5:00 AM, "Schuyler" <s.waynforth@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> >>Your sister deseves an authentic relationship with him and opportunity
> tohave her own experience of all the good stuff in your son.<<
>
> I once told my brother that I'd like a relationship with him. I was saying
> that I wanted to be closer to him, have more frequent conversations,
> etcetera, but what I said was that I wanted to have a relationship with
> him. He said, "We have a relationship, this one."
>
> Joy's sister has a relationship with Joy's son. Whether or not it's
> mediated through her relationship with Joy, she hasn't chosen to make it
> anything other than what it is. Locking them together in a room until they
> can get along suggests a couple of interesting ideas. One, that they are
> equal. That Joy's 9 year old son is equally at fault for not making a good
> relationship with his grown-up aunt as she is and is equally capable to
> reach out to her and bond with her as she is with him. It seems to me that
> the two of them may be quite alike in not wanting to reach beyond their
> comfort zone to someone else. They may not want to be kind. Two, that it is
> a good idea to entrust your child in the care of someone who has a clear
> dislike for them in the hopes that they will learn to love them as you do.
> Three, that enforced time with someone produces fondness, we already know
> that the time that the cousins are spending together isn't making them
> fonder of each
> other, if past experience is anything to go by it is unlikely to work out
> as you might hope. Four, that the relationship that they do have is somehow
> inauthentic. Some folks just don't get along. Simon and Linnaea aren't
> terribly fond of my father. He moves large and takes up lots of space and
> isn't particularly good at making room for other people. That is how they
> feel. That is authentic and real. Joy's sister's dislike of Joy's son may
> be a true and honest dislike of him. There may be other mitigating
> circumstances, but pushing the two of them into a weekend away together is
> unlikely to get them embracing and laughing and loving. Fifth, the idea
> that Joy's son deserves to get feedback from someone who has demonstrated
> both a lack of consideration for him and a lack of tolerance for him is
> probably not one that is going to nurture change in his behaviour. Telling
> someone something isn't cool is one thing, but ranting, going on and on,
> writing pages
> and pages of evidence on poor form shown, is a really bad way to align
> their thinking with yours. And is indicative of someone who has so lost
> their cool and their perspective on something that their opinion is
> probably no longer reliable.
>
> No one deserves a good relationship with someone else, they earn it, they
> make it, the work on it, but they don't deserve it.
>
> Schuyler
>
> ___________________________
>
> Hi Joy -
> This sounds tricky... Your sister and son might just work it out
> themselves. I would trust that your sister loves your son - she may
> not*like
> * him very much right now - but that's a valid response to him. Is it
> possible for your sister and son to have their own time together, one on
> on? I'm thinking that they need their own relationship that is not
> influenced by you. After 2 or 3 days together, they might get past this
> stuff. He deserves to get feedback that some of his behavior is not cool.
> Your sister deseves an authentic relationship with him and opportunity to
> have her own experience of all the good stuff in your son.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jimmetycricket

I really don't think that my sister does love my son. She does not & has not treated my son in a loving way at any rate. This has been the case since my son was a baby before there was any 'behaviour' to object to.

Schuyler, this is such an insightful response, thank you.

>>Fifth, the idea that Joy's son deserves to get feedback from someone who has demonstrated both a lack of consideration for him and a lack of tolerance for him is probably not one that is going to nurture change in his behaviour. Telling someone something isn't cool is one thing, but ranting, going on and on, writing pages
and pages of evidence on poor form shown, is a really bad way to align their thinking with yours. And is indicative of someone who has so lost their cool and their perspective on something that their opinion is probably no longer reliable.>>

This is the truth of this situation as far as I see it.


--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> >>Your sister deseves an authentic relationship with him and opportunity tohave her own experience of all the good stuff in your son.<<
>
> I once told my brother that I'd like a relationship with him. I was saying that I wanted to be closer to him, have more frequent conversations, etcetera, but what I said was that I wanted to have a relationship with him. He said, "We have a relationship, this one."
>
> Joy's sister has a relationship with Joy's son. Whether or not it's mediated through her relationship with Joy, she hasn't chosen to make it anything other than what it is. Locking them together in a room until they can get along suggests a couple of interesting ideas. One, that they are equal. That Joy's 9 year old son is equally at fault for not making a good relationship with his grown-up aunt as she is and is equally capable to reach out to her and bond with her as she is with him. It seems to me that the two of them may be quite alike in not wanting to reach beyond their comfort zone to someone else. They may not want to be kind. Two, that it is a good idea to entrust your child in the care of someone who has a clear dislike for them in the hopes that they will learn to love them as you do. Three, that enforced time with someone produces fondness, we already know that the time that the cousins are spending together isn't making them fonder of each
> other, if past experience is anything to go by it is unlikely to work out as you might hope. Four, that the relationship that they do have is somehow inauthentic. Some folks just don't get along. Simon and Linnaea aren't terribly fond of my father. He moves large and takes up lots of space and isn't particularly good at making room for other people. That is how they feel. That is authentic and real. Joy's sister's dislike of Joy's son may be a true and honest dislike of him. There may be other mitigating circumstances, but pushing the two of them into a weekend away together is unlikely to get them embracing and laughing and loving. Fifth, the idea that Joy's son deserves to get feedback from someone who has demonstrated both a lack of consideration for him and a lack of tolerance for him is probably not one that is going to nurture change in his behaviour. Telling someone something isn't cool is one thing, but ranting, going on and on, writing pages
> and pages of evidence on poor form shown, is a really bad way to align their thinking with yours. And is indicative of someone who has so lost their cool and their perspective on something that their opinion is probably no longer reliable.
>
> No one deserves a good relationship with someone else, they earn it, they make it, the work on it, but they don't deserve it. 
>
> Schuyler
>
> ___________________________
>
> Hi Joy -
> This sounds tricky... Your sister and son might just work it out
> themselves. I would trust that your sister loves your son - she may not*like
> * him very much right now - but that's a valid response to him. Is it
> possible for your sister and son to have their own time together, one on
> on? I'm thinking that they need their own relationship that is not
> influenced by you. After 2 or 3 days together, they might get past this
> stuff. He deserves to get feedback that some of his behavior is not cool.
> Your sister deseves an authentic relationship with him and opportunity to
> have her own experience of all the good stuff in your son. 
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 6, 2012, at 1:25 AM, jimmetycricket wrote:

> I have tried to discourage my son from excluding her but saw that this
> was not helping the situation. So we encourage both boys to talk to the
> younger girl in a way that is kind. So that they respectfully communicate
> their desire for alone time without being mean. We also encourage them
> to ask one of us for help if they need it. One day despite my asking him
> several times to speak kindly to her (combined with her mothers & my
> efforts to keep her occupied so they could have space) he kept speaking rudely to her.

Is there a friend for the girl the mother could invite when your son comes to play? This sounds like a situation that is ripe to fail.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect 9 yo boys to play nicely with a younger sister even if he manages sometimes. And unless you and the mother can find something that's more fun than other kids for the girl, I don't think it's reasonable for her not to want to play with them.

So I think you're looking at who you want your son to be, and not looking at what he's trying to communicate repeatedly: that he really doesn't want to play with her.

Look at it this way, what if you wanted to spend time with your friend but the only time you could spend with her was with her husband, that you didn't much like, who hovered around butting into your conversation. And what if your husband kept jumping in when you got irritated and lectured you afterwards about how you needed to be as nice to the husband as your friend?

You need to be way more sensitive to his needs and his ability to meet them. If you're repeatedly telling him to be kind to her, then she's in their space way too much. Treat him as though he's doing the best he can in the situation. He shouldn't be put in a situation where he needs to ask her not to play with them so much! Don't set him up to fail. Change the situation rather than trying to change him.

It's good to help him with tools to use to ask her nicely that they want to play alone. Talk *together* *beforehand*. Come up with strategies *together*. Coach him rather than telling him. Talk afterwards about how it went. Listen to his version and refrain from injecting your version *for now* until he can hear your words as feedback to help him rather than criticism. BUT, right now he'll have a hard time not hearing a lecture. It will take time -- months, years -- before he can hear information to help him rather than a lecture on his behavior. Be sensitive to that. Focus on the feedback he's giving you rather than getting him where you want him to be.

> When he calmed down he played with the younger girl & was very sweet with her.


And quite possibly this was him putting in extraordinary effort. And you probably saw this as the norm you expect of him.

If you put in 12 hours preparing a feast and everyone treated it as "Finally you're cooking the way we expect you to," would you want to prepare more feasts for them?


> In the past I would have just talked about it, perhaps several times. And
> when that obviously wasn't helping I may have partly let it go (while
> probably playing with the girl myself) & discussed it afterwards.

This is where you're going wrong and it's what a lot of parents do. You believe his behavior comes from lack of trying or lack of understanding. So you keep trying to correct both. But if you see his behavior as being the best he can do given his development, his understanding of the world, his needs, it may help you see that he's in situations that are more than he is capable of handling right now.

He needs you to be what he can't yet be. He needs you not to put him in situations he can't yet handle. He needs you to change the situations to ones he can handle. Don't set him up to fail. If he's failing, be the more socially adept one on his team and fix the situation.


> One time we were talking about these matters & he said, But I
> don't want to be kind - you want me to be but I don't. I just felt
> despairing when he said that. How can you not want to be kind?
> I really am not sure how to deal with this, how to guide him.

His not wanting to be kind isn't the same as yours. His "kind" is being forced over and over to use tools that aren't getting him what he wants: time to play uninterrupted with his friend. Do you see how frustrating that is for him? Do you see why he wouldn't want to be "kind".

I would apologize to him. He's feeling completely unheard. His feelings are being trampled all over to force him to not trample on other's feelings. He can't care about others if his feelings don't seem important to you.

Rather than forcing him to be a principled person, use the principles to help him meet his needs. Rather than focusing on his unkindness, focus on his needs (to play with his friend uninterrupted) and help him meet them in ways that are kind, respectful and safe. Use the tools in ways that feel positive to him -- helping him meet his needs -- rather then as standards that he keeps failing to meet.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 6, 2012, at 1:25 AM, jimmetycricket wrote:


> I'm very interested in what you've said Joyce about helping him to
> navigate reality. Could you please help me to understand better
> what you mean by that?

There are natural limitations in life. There are ways of living courteously with the rest of the world. That is, Moms run out of energy. Don't step on the grass means Don't step on the grass. 10 PM means there may be people who want to sleep.

Sometimes unschoolers get this notion that unschooling means freedom for the child to do whatever they want like running wildly in crowded stores, being up playing loudly all night, having what they ask for right this minute. But that's not helping them be people that other people want to be around.

Conventional parenting would see limitations and courtesies as rules and then make kids obey them. But that works against human nature. The kids are trying to meet needs and the rule says "Your needs aren't important. Other people's needs are more important than yours." Any human would fight against that. (Or end up feeling they aren't important.)

What works with human nature is taking their needs seriously and helping them meet them in safe, courteous, socially acceptable ways. Use the principles to help them meet their needs. Sometimes it will mean abandoning a situation they can't handle. Sometimes it will mean changing the situation to one they can handle. Sometimes it will mean asking them to wait and you'll get them what they need as quick as you can. (And then do that!)

Best, though, is thinking ahead and heading off problems before they happen. The fewer times they're in situations they can't handle, the fewer times they're asked to contain themselves, the more energy they'll have for the times you couldn't foresee.

Be proactive. Be attuned to hunger, thirst, tiredness. Don't wait until they notice since sometimes kids -- humans really! -- when they're having a lot of fun will ignore the signals until they can't stand it any longer. And then it's too late to expect socially acceptable behavior. Get them fed and watered. Get them away from people where they can recover.

Be aware of what situations they can and can't handle. If they failed previously, don't put them in the situation again right now. Wait for more maturity. Stick to situations they can handle. And then take new situations slowly. Give yourself exit strategies. If you know, for instance, they haven't been able to be around a particular relative for more than an hour, don't plan a weekend with them at their house! ;-)

And a word about Mom energy. We're actually human and do have limits. ;-) Some mothers will ignore their needs and push themselves to exhaustion. Some mothers will shut down and say "No more! I'm done!" And, just to paint the complete picture, some mothers see all the tasks that need done for a family (shopping, schlepping, cleaning) as doing things for the kids.

None of those is best. The first models that Mom is so unimportant that she doesn't deserve to have her needs met. The second sends a confusing message that the kids shouldn't ask for more than Mom can give. But being aware of Mom's limitations aren't their responsibility! It's Mom's. The third is completely confusing to them. To them Mom is running around apparently doing what she wants, maybe even taking a break to meet her energy needs, and they get what time and energy is left over for what they want.

Any power our kids have to meet their needs comes through us. There will be times when kids need us to set aside our tiredness to meet their needs. (Especially when they're babies or toddlers! Those years take a lot of energy. It's where a village can come in handy ;-) But barring a village, it will mean feeling exhausted frequently. It does get better!)

But if Mom is getting exhausted repeatedly, then Mom isn't taking her own limitations into account as she plans the day. And she needs to be more realistic about what she can accomplish in a day. Build meeting your own needs into the day. Model that caring for your own needs can be built into the day.

You can help your son navigate reality by accepting that reality isn't a rule you're imposing. You only have so much energy, so be realistic about what you can and can't do when you're helping him. He only has the skills he has been able to master, so be realistic about what you expect of him.

Joyce

jimmetycricket

Thank you so much Joyce.
> So I think you're looking at who you want your son to be, >
I have felt myself doing this to him & it feels awful. But sometimes I get so lost in it all that I can't see the wood for the trees. And I know the pain of being on the receiving end of that because my mother does it to me. I want him to be kind, I want him to be polite & behave in a way that endears him to others & I get so lost in that & the judgements of others that I'm not able to be present & see & meet his needs & help him. I think that he 'should' be other than what he is. And that feels awful & I don't want to do that to him & I so feel the truth of what you've said. But I guess I'm scared that if I try to create the environment to always suit what he wants that he will not learn what he needs to get along with others & that everything doesn't always go the way he wants it to & despite that he needs to be kind & respectful to others.
Joy


--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 6, 2012, at 1:25 AM, jimmetycricket wrote:
>
> > I have tried to discourage my son from excluding her but saw that this
> > was not helping the situation. So we encourage both boys to talk to the
> > younger girl in a way that is kind. So that they respectfully communicate
> > their desire for alone time without being mean. We also encourage them
> > to ask one of us for help if they need it. One day despite my asking him
> > several times to speak kindly to her (combined with her mothers & my
> > efforts to keep her occupied so they could have space) he kept speaking rudely to her.
>
> Is there a friend for the girl the mother could invite when your son comes to play? This sounds like a situation that is ripe to fail.
>
> I don't think it's reasonable to expect 9 yo boys to play nicely with a younger sister even if he manages sometimes. And unless you and the mother can find something that's more fun than other kids for the girl, I don't think it's reasonable for her not to want to play with them.
>
> So I think you're looking at who you want your son to be, and not looking at what he's trying to communicate repeatedly: that he really doesn't want to play with her.
>
> Look at it this way, what if you wanted to spend time with your friend but the only time you could spend with her was with her husband, that you didn't much like, who hovered around butting into your conversation. And what if your husband kept jumping in when you got irritated and lectured you afterwards about how you needed to be as nice to the husband as your friend?
>
> You need to be way more sensitive to his needs and his ability to meet them. If you're repeatedly telling him to be kind to her, then she's in their space way too much. Treat him as though he's doing the best he can in the situation. He shouldn't be put in a situation where he needs to ask her not to play with them so much! Don't set him up to fail. Change the situation rather than trying to change him.
>
> It's good to help him with tools to use to ask her nicely that they want to play alone. Talk *together* *beforehand*. Come up with strategies *together*. Coach him rather than telling him. Talk afterwards about how it went. Listen to his version and refrain from injecting your version *for now* until he can hear your words as feedback to help him rather than criticism. BUT, right now he'll have a hard time not hearing a lecture. It will take time -- months, years -- before he can hear information to help him rather than a lecture on his behavior. Be sensitive to that. Focus on the feedback he's giving you rather than getting him where you want him to be.
>
> > When he calmed down he played with the younger girl & was very sweet with her.
>
>
> And quite possibly this was him putting in extraordinary effort. And you probably saw this as the norm you expect of him.
>
> If you put in 12 hours preparing a feast and everyone treated it as "Finally you're cooking the way we expect you to," would you want to prepare more feasts for them?
>
>
> > In the past I would have just talked about it, perhaps several times. And
> > when that obviously wasn't helping I may have partly let it go (while
> > probably playing with the girl myself) & discussed it afterwards.
>
> This is where you're going wrong and it's what a lot of parents do. You believe his behavior comes from lack of trying or lack of understanding. So you keep trying to correct both. But if you see his behavior as being the best he can do given his development, his understanding of the world, his needs, it may help you see that he's in situations that are more than he is capable of handling right now.
>
> He needs you to be what he can't yet be. He needs you not to put him in situations he can't yet handle. He needs you to change the situations to ones he can handle. Don't set him up to fail. If he's failing, be the more socially adept one on his team and fix the situation.
>
>
> > One time we were talking about these matters & he said, But I
> > don't want to be kind - you want me to be but I don't. I just felt
> > despairing when he said that. How can you not want to be kind?
> > I really am not sure how to deal with this, how to guide him.
>
> His not wanting to be kind isn't the same as yours. His "kind" is being forced over and over to use tools that aren't getting him what he wants: time to play uninterrupted with his friend. Do you see how frustrating that is for him? Do you see why he wouldn't want to be "kind".
>
> I would apologize to him. He's feeling completely unheard. His feelings are being trampled all over to force him to not trample on other's feelings. He can't care about others if his feelings don't seem important to you.
>
> Rather than forcing him to be a principled person, use the principles to help him meet his needs. Rather than focusing on his unkindness, focus on his needs (to play with his friend uninterrupted) and help him meet them in ways that are kind, respectful and safe. Use the tools in ways that feel positive to him -- helping him meet his needs -- rather then as standards that he keeps failing to meet.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 6, 2012, at 9:15 AM, jimmetycricket wrote:

> But I guess I'm scared that if I try to create the environment to always suit what he wants

It doesn't need to be all or nothing! ;-) There aren't just two choices.

Life will put you in new situations. And do what you can to coach him in advance. Do what you can to be the buffer between him and the world and between the world and him.

Take baby steps. Don't plunge into the deep end with him. As he gets older, wade a little into more social situations to see how he's handling them. If he can't, back off.


> that he will not learn what he needs to get along with others

Did you worry that if you didn't get your infant walking he'd never walk?

Did you worry that if you didn't get him talking, he'd never talk?

Does it make sense that if he doesn't have social skills that are adult acceptable at 4, that he'll never have them?


> & that everything doesn't always go the way he wants it to & despite that he needs to be kind & respectful to others.

Think about that for a moment. If you're in the midst of being disappointed and someone says "Well life doesn't always give us what we want," are you suddenly happy and enlightened by this new insight?

Or is your unhappiness *not* caused by lack of knowledge of how the world is? Or is it because you had hopes and dreams and they got crushed.

What if, instead, someone says, "I'm sorry!" and sympathizes with your feelings. And talks about how much fun that would have been. And listens more than they talk :-) And they never say "But life doesn't always give us what we want." (Which is another way of saying, you're wrong for feeling sad.)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

This sounds tricky... Your sister and son might just work it out
themselves. I would trust that your sister loves your son - she may not*like
* him very much right now - but that's a valid response to him. Is it
possible for your sister and son to have their own time together, one on
on? I'm thinking that they need their own relationship that is not
influenced by you. After 2 or 3 days together, they might get past this
stuff. He deserves to get feedback that some of his behavior is not cool.
Your sister deseves an authentic relationship with him and opportunity to
have her own experience of all the good stuff in your son.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I disagree with some of this.
IF the boy has difficulties with social interactions, specially with this person, he needs help navigating them and not
be left alone to "figure things out".
I would not leave them alone together. Does her son want to be with her? It does not sound like it.

 I do agree that he giving him feedback that his behavior is not nice .

I do not agree that her sister *deserves* a relationship with him.  Does not sound like she tried to  get to know him in all these
years.  If my sister was not nice to my son and did not like him I would make sure they did not get to spend a lot of time
together. I would make sure my son was being polite but would never force it on him this person, an adult, that does not like him.

MY sister has a kid that is very intense and hard to take. But I am the adult and I make and effort to  be nice to him and '
get to know him and to see the good in him. In turn this kid likes me. He is sweet to me. He wants to come visit me.
It could have gone the other way but I am the adult and I make the effort.

Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

"jimmetycricket" <lisa0@...> wrote:
> I'm feeling very emotional at the moment. The letter my sister wrote included pages of awful things about my son. Things that he has done or said over years.
**************

If she's the sort who keeps a tally of every perceived ill over years, keep in mind that's about Her, not you or your son. Your son has been growing and changing over the years - hopefully you have been too! but one thing that can be said with certainty about children is they grown and change ;)

Now that you know what your sister has been stewing over, you can adapt. It's okay to grieve a bit for the relationship you Wish existed - it's Good to grieve for things like that so you can move on. But then start actively looking for ways to separate your relationship from your sister from that with your son. If you want to keep seeing her, maybe have a regular "girls day out" with her - just her, where you shop or get your hair done or play paint-ball or whatever it is you enjoy doing together without your kids. Brainstorm some topics beforehand so if she tried to talk about parenting you can change the subject! Talk about music or politics or philosophy, just don't get into parenting. I have a couple friends like that, and it helps fill up other needs, needs which aren't related to parenting.

---Meredith

Meredith

"jimmetycricket" <lisa0@...> wrote:
> I guess I'm scared that if I try to create the environment to always suit what he wants that he will not learn what he needs to get along with others & that everything doesn't always go the way he wants it to & despite that he needs to be kind & respectful to others.
********************

You could be superhuman and Still not create an environment which is Always Exactly what a child needs and wants in the moment. I promise!

I've also had experience with two kids who have struggled with social situations in very different ways.

Ray needed a lot of attention and would get overwhelmed in group situations trying to be the center of everyone's attention. Keeping him in smaller groups where people were already friendly to him had a substantial effect on his ability to be pleasant in the moment and learn better social skills over time. We weren't unschooling at the time, but we still found setting him up to succeed helped him learn - because he could learn a little bit at a time rather than trying to ingest a whole lot at once. Now, at 18, he has pretty spectacular social skills in a broad range of circumstances. He knows how to behave at a nice dinner party, as a waiter or salesperson, as a student, as a teacher, how to be polite to police and other authorities, and how to talk down a drunk former biker who's in the mood to rumble - that's a Lot of different skills! So setting a kid up to succeed isn't going to set him up to have poor social skills ;)

Mo is an introvert and she doesn't like to be in the middle of things, she needs time to observe and get the hang of the scene first. In addition, she'd rather do things alongside other people, sort-of with them, but sort of not - if you think about leaning on a truck as opposed to sitting across a table, that's a good analogy. She *can* be in the middle of things, if she's already comfortable with everyone *and* the dynamic, but if, say, we go visit friends and there's something exciting going on, she may be back to observing for awhile. It has helped Mo to respect all those things and set her up so she can observe, or take breaks from people, or jump in as she's ready. And at 10 she can handle quite a few different sorts of new and surprising situations and talk to people she doesn't know. She's pretty good at finding people who she'll get along with in busy scenes, like parties or events.

---Meredith

jimmetycricket

ds seems to have a little of both of these characteristics he is somewhat shy. He likes his own space & has a need for time on his own. But he also loves to play with close friends. There is also at times this need to be the center of everyone's attention. Smaller groups definitely suits him better. And definitely his social skills over a whole range of situations has improved as he has gotten older.
Joy

--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
> I've also had experience with two kids who have struggled with social situations in very different ways....

jimmetycricket

I'm not sure that I do want to have a relationship with her at this point. It is very painful for me to know how she feels about my son. But if I decide otherwise I certainly don't want her to be around my son unless she is able to work a lot of her stuff out.

I have a good friend who also has a high spirited child & she said that she had chosen some time back that she didn't want anyone in her life who was going to be a harsh judge of her dd or her parenting. And she has surrounded herself with people who support her & care for her dd. So have I really, except for my sister. I have also allowed her judgement to affect my parenting - & it will be great to step away from that for a while.

My son really is a wonderful kid & I don't want to be bogged down by my sister's perspective of him. No-one else sees him as she does. My brother who is 10 years younger than I & doesn't have his own children has lived with us for the past 8 months & he gets along fine with ds. We're actually planning a holiday together. My friend & her dd live downstairs from us & they get along just fine with ds.

We've just returned from a trip visiting my mother & she loves her grandson (there was one uncomfortable situation where a good friend of my mum's but who was a stranger to my son gave him a huge hug & said 'I'm just like a nanny to you too' this was a huge invasion of his personal space & he became angry & refused to talk to her for the next 20 mins that we were in her company). He can have difficulties in social situations at times. And empathy is something he is learning.

But he is not the monster child that my sister seems to be trying to convince me that he is. I think she has done it to defend the relationship she has with my son which is in stark contrast to the loving relationship I have with her daughters. First it seems it was my fault she wasn't close to him as a baby because I was prickly & then as ds got older it was his fault cause he's an awful kid. I don't know exactly what the underlying stuff is all about but the thought of not having it around me or my son feels like a huge relief. I would certainly miss my neices but I don't know that I have the ability to continue to give love & nurturing to them when my sister seems so unable to give that to my son.
Joy
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> "jimmetycricket" <lisa0@> wrote:
> > I'm feeling very emotional at the moment. The letter my sister wrote included pages of awful things about my son. Things that he has done or said over years.
> **************
>
> If she's the sort who keeps a tally of every perceived ill over years, keep in mind that's about Her, not you or your son. Your son has been growing and changing over the years - hopefully you have been too! but one thing that can be said with certainty about children is they grown and change ;)
>
> Now that you know what your sister has been stewing over, you can adapt. It's okay to grieve a bit for the relationship you Wish existed - it's Good to grieve for things like that so you can move on. But then start actively looking for ways to separate your relationship from your sister from that with your son. If you want to keep seeing her, maybe have a regular "girls day out" with her - just her, where you shop or get your hair done or play paint-ball or whatever it is you enjoy doing together without your kids. Brainstorm some topics beforehand so if she tried to talk about parenting you can change the subject! Talk about music or politics or philosophy, just don't get into parenting. I have a couple friends like that, and it helps fill up other needs, needs which aren't related to parenting.
>
> ---Meredith
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 6, 2012, at 7:29 PM, jimmetycricket wrote:

> ut I don't know that I have the ability to continue to give love &
> nurturing to them when my sister seems so unable to give that to my son.

But then you would be punishing them for your sister's immaturity. They are their own individuals, separate from your sister.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lovejoy

I think that would be punishing the nieces. I'd try to, if not spend time with them, at least make sure to send cards and gifts. Show them that I still care for them, even if I couldn't see them. Depending on how much they know about the situation, they might be very understanding---if not, then confused---by a sudden change like that.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson



-----Original Message-----
From: jimmetycricket <lisa0@...>
I would

certainly miss my neices but I don't know that I have the ability to continue to
give love & nurturing to them when my sister seems so unable to give that to my
son.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 6, 2012, at 1:25 AM, jimmetycricket wrote:


>>> >>> He regularly talks about blowing things or people he doesn't like up, or shooting them, etc.
>>
>> >> When I read that I thought "9". And scrolled back to check.
>>
> > Yes he is 9 yrs I've made a typo in my previous post.

Oh, I meant, "blowing things up" = 9 yo.

Do you have real opportunities for explosive things for him?

Like the Mentos and Coke that was a huge hit for a while. Potato guns. I'm sure if you ask others here have gone through that age and know of big reaction activities.

Joyce

jimmetycricket

I will make sure to do some more of those kinds of things. He would love it.

I want to thank you all for your advice, time & thoughtfulness. It has really helped me to put things in perspective. And helped to support me through a couple of pretty rough days. It's also helping me to love my son better.
Joy

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 6, 2012, at 1:25 AM, jimmetycricket wrote:
>
>
> >>> >>> He regularly talks about blowing things or people he doesn't like up, or shooting them, etc.
> >>
> >> >> When I read that I thought "9". And scrolled back to check.
> >>
> > > Yes he is 9 yrs I've made a typo in my previous post.
>
> Oh, I meant, "blowing things up" = 9 yo.
>
> Do you have real opportunities for explosive things for him?
>
> Like the Mentos and Coke that was a huge hit for a while. Potato guns. I'm sure if you ask others here have gone through that age and know of big reaction activities.
>
> Joyce
>

jimmetycricket

That's true. I'm still reeling from the letter she sent me I will need some time to work out how I'm going to deal with all this. And I am already missing the girls.

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 6, 2012, at 7:29 PM, jimmetycricket wrote:
>
> > ut I don't know that I have the ability to continue to give love &
> > nurturing to them when my sister seems so unable to give that to my son.
>
> But then you would be punishing them for your sister's immaturity. They are their own individuals, separate from your sister.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>