ushabug

My oldest son (6) is on the Feingold diet. It has been a miracle for him. This was not about fitting him in at school or anything like that he really "needs" it. When reacting he is aggressive, violent, out of touch with his body - he hates it. He urinates and defecates on things, he gets leg cramps - insomnia etc, etc. Multi-hour tantrums on and on. Just being clear this isn't about manipulating behavior, I've gotten flack for saying his diet is "necessary" on other unschooling boards.
Anywho, how do those of you whose children have non-life-threatening sensitivities balance that with child choice?
Usha

Meredith

"ushabug" <ushabug@...> wrote:
>> Anywho, how do those of you whose children have non-life-threatening sensitivities balance that with child choice?
****************

Kids don't necessarily Want all the choices and responsibilities of an adult, but they do want to feel a sense of capability and control over their lives. It's neither necessary or desirable to give little children big, adult choices they can't handle.

It might help to use the analogy of a broken bone. That's not generally life threatening, but at the same time the option of Not having it treated at all isn't likely to be on the table! So you do what you can to make the unpleasant experience more bearable to your loved one.

Life comes with real limits - and sometimes our bodies provide real limits. Where unschooling is different from most other kinds of parenting is that limits aren't automatically some kind of end point, they're just obstacles. As a parent, you get to help your child climb over and around and through many of those obstacles safely to help them meet their needs and learn about the world.

> My oldest son (6) is on the Feingold diet. It has been a miracle for him.
****************

Kids who have needs which require special diets or medication often want to experiment with the boundaries of that and gain a sense of control over themselves and their circumstances. As a parent, you have the option of helping them do that safely - help evaluate the pros and cons and make plans for a child who wants to try and may need time to recover afterwards.

If your son wants to explore the limits of what's "safe" to eat (and it's good to do so, since that's something which can change radically with time) help him do it gently and safely. Feingold is "whole" foods for the most part, right? So look for ways for him to try small amounts of processed foods now and then - while also planning for fallout if the experiment isn't successful. I don't mean you should stock your cabinets with things he can't eat - that would be cruel! But help him learn in a safe, supportive environment.

With careful experimentation, he might find that his diet can expand - or not, but it will be more meaningful for Him to learn the limits of what he can eat than to be told "no, because I love you" too many times.

---Meredith

Ann

I can't tell you how many discussions I had with my son about his physical and emotional well being before he decided to go off wheat. Turned out to be wheat, soy, and peanuts that were the offending food, but wheat had the worst effect on him. I think seeing me break down crying and have to pull over to the side of the road because he looked so bad (face gray in color, purple circles under his eyes, red rash all over his face)and he was screaming obscenities at me. This kind of thing had been happening since he was 2 yo but I and the doctors did not know why it was happening. The year prior to him going on the diet, I told him how I thought it might be wheat (just had a gut instinct). So the day I broke down sobbing in the car, he decided to try going off the wheat. He felt so much better after two weeks, he's never looked back. There were tears the first several weeks over not being able to eat all his old favorites, but I always gave him the choice. He would say "no I don't want it" as he was crying his heart out, but he did it voluntarily every time. Now, on the occasion he accidentally eats an offending food, (typically from a cross contamination) he feels so bad, he can't imagine ever knowingly eating those foods. My son is 11 years old, has been on his diet for almost a year now, and his health continues to improve. I really believe that if I had forced him to do this, he would have "cheated" at every turn. I felt like he was not in imminent danger, so I continued to give him the choice. His sensitivities are serious enough that he may never be able to eat these foods. One day he will be an adult, and will have to make these choices every day. I won't be able to make those choices for him, so he may as well learn to make them now, at least that's the way I feel about it. My son also tells me he is glad that he got to make this choice, and that he continues to be in control of his diet.

For those with younger children, I don't know what I would have done if I had found out what was causing his rages when he was very young. It would have been a difficult thing to decide, I'm sure. Small children can't make truly informed decisions because they can't really know what effect these things have on their bodies.

Ann

--- In [email protected], "ushabug" <ushabug@...> wrote:
>
> My oldest son (6) is on the Feingold diet. It has been a miracle for him. This was not about fitting him in at school or anything like that he really "needs" it. When reacting he is aggressive, violent, out of touch with his body - he hates it. He urinates and defecates on things, he gets leg cramps - insomnia etc, etc. Multi-hour tantrums on and on. Just being clear this isn't about manipulating behavior, I've gotten flack for saying his diet is "necessary" on other unschooling boards.
> Anywho, how do those of you whose children have non-life-threatening sensitivities balance that with child choice?
> Usha
>

Meredith

"Ann" <auntannies2002@...> wrote:
>> For those with younger children, I don't know what I would have done if I had found out what was causing his rages when he was very young. It would have been a difficult thing to decide, I'm sure.
***************

One of the big hidden elephants of conventional parenting is the idea that parents Must stick to their decisions. That's where a lot of rules and parenting practices fall apart - something that works well as a reminder for a little kid (don't eat in the living room, for instance) becomes a ridiculous restriction with tons of push-back.

It helps to keep in mind that there are very few "once and for all" decisions. As kids get older, things change; they change and parents do better when they respond to the real needs of kids in the moment.

---Meredith

Debra Rossing

Also, as part of partnering with our kids re: food issues, we look for ways to provide "favorites" that arenot or are less problematic. Same as we'd do if a partner (adult) was diagnosed with something (hypertension, cholesterol, diabetes, allergies, celiac, etc). We'd shop around for gluten free or allergen free food options, scour the web for recipes, etc. Same for our kids - if wheat is an issue, look for wheat free cookies, snacks, etc. Fortunately, more and more of these sorts of things are making their way into mainstream grocery stores not just specialty places.



--Deb R

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yourbestself

Perhaps for those who only have to avoid one food, like wheat or gluten, it is just that easy to find recipes and/or products to sub for the favorites. For a family like mine though, it's not that easy. We must avoid gluten, dairy, corn, soy& egg due to confirmed allergies. And that's just for my two oldest children. The littlest one is sensitive to all those & cashews, almonds, beef, lamb and maybe a dozen or more other things. He has never been at baseline (the absence of symptoms) in his short almost 30 months on the planet :-(. There is no buying of packaged foods for us; I (or sometimes dh) must make everything. Everything. I spend my life in the kitchen :-(. It is very tough on aloust us that I spend so much time prepping, cooking & half heartedly cleaning up when I'm done. I'm sure there are ways that I could make things easier but doing something like using the food processor to chop means dh (the resident dishwasher) has to clean it rather than the cutting board. I'm very distractable too which means I'm not as efficient as I could possibly be, but not much I can do about that.

Oh and reactions to foods (either thru ingestion, inhilation or touching) often means disturbed sleep and/or floods of pee. All this translates into less sleep for me which means I'm more tired the next day which means I lack the energy to try out that new recipe, or call that company to find out if they spray their Brussels sprouts with corn (yes, the fresh Brussels sprouts you're eating may be sprayed with corn!), to contact new CSA farm possibilities to find out if they too use the great new compostable & biodegradable "black plastic mulch," that is made from corn starch, to play the game with the 6 y.o., to make Christmas presents for people, to write thank you notes, to read more to the 6 y.o., to sit & watch some tv with the littles without falling asleep, etc., etc., etc. the list goes on.

Now, things are getting a little easier because dh is home FT now with a job where his office is at home. No we don have relatives to help with this; they either don't get it or take our food "choices," personally. And. I we don't have the income to farm out the work. We already spend more money on food than the mortgage some months.

So, that's why it's just not that easy for everyone.

Susanne


--- In [email protected], Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...> wrote:
>
> Also, as part of partnering with our kids re: food issues, we look for ways to provide "favorites" that arenot or are less problematic. Same as we'd do if a partner (adult) was diagnosed with something (hypertension, cholesterol, diabetes, allergies, celiac, etc). We'd shop around for gluten free or allergen free food options, scour the web for recipes, etc. Same for our kids - if wheat is an issue, look for wheat free cookies, snacks, etc. Fortunately, more and more of these sorts of things are making their way into mainstream grocery stores not just specialty places.
>
>
>
> --Deb R
>
> **********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the system manager.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
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Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 27, 2011, at 9:06 PM, yourbestself wrote:

> No we don have relatives to help with this; they either don't get it or take our food
> "choices," personally. And. I we don't have the income to farm out the work.
> We already spend more money on food than the mortgage some months.
>
> So, that's why it's just not that easy for everyone.


It's surprising what creative ideas people can come up with when they're determined to make something work.

No one has to do any of what's discussed on the list.

If someone can't figure out a way to do something that's being discussed, then they can't.

As Henry Ford said, �Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.�

But to decide that other people won't be able to do it because you've decided that continuing to explore the idea isn't worth it for your family, isn't helpful to anyone.

Joyce




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

What if you spent two days a week, maybe even a month, and make loads and loads of things to freeze. I remember exploring the Walford diet at one point and reading stories of how they would deal with such labour intensive food. Lots spent a day a week prepping all their meals and then freezing the component parts. They made their own prepackaged foods. You could easily rely on the food processor to do lots and lots of chopping for you and then freeze all the bits in little boxes or baggies. You may have to invest in a chest freezer. I have no idea how much they cost. But it would probably make a load of difference for you on a day to day basis.


Schuyler



________________________________


Now, things are getting a little easier because dh is home FT now with a job where his office is at home. No we don have relatives to help with this; they either don't get it or take our food "choices," personally. And. I we don't have the income to farm out the work. We already spend more money on food than the mortgage some months.

So, that's why it's just not that easy for everyone.

Susanne

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike and Michelle

We also have to avoid gluten, dairy, soy, egg, and cashews (because of
the soy oil used to prepare them). Soy is in EVERYTHING! We have also
personally chosen to avoid additives, preservatives, etc. We make many
things from scratch ~ which helps. I frequently use
allergyfreemenuplanners.com <http://allergyfreemenuplanners.com> for
meal planning. It makes things much simpler. You can customize it by
checking which items you have to avoid, then it will show you what
recipes avoid those items. She also sends out a weekly menu. If
something in one of those recipes contains an allergen you need to
avoid, it is flagged to make you aware of it.

We also make gluten free, and/or dairy and egg free breads, rolls in our
bread machine. I take advantage of many vegan recipes. I use Ener-g
egg replacer in many recipes. It works perfect every time! The best
part is... it's gluten, egg, soy, dairy, casein, etc. free! I have many
saved web sites with yummy recipes if you would like to check them out.
I have found many recipes that allow them to enjoy their favorite foods.

If we had company coming over, I would research and create a menu that
would be enjoyable, without causing them any suffering afterwards. I do
the same for my family. We have 9 children, with many different food
sensitivities. It is important to me that they have full, comfortable
bellies ~ and are able to eat the foods they like. :) Sometimes, there
is something on the table cooked 2 different ways, so everyone can enjoy
it to their liking. Cooking from scratch, is time consuming, without a
doubt, but it can be done.

We have also used the Feingold diet. We still, on occasion, use the
book that has all of the approved foods in it.



<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbzBlcmp1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyNzg5NTEzBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA4MTk3MgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzEzMjUwNDU4MTc->


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

yourbestself

I went back & reread my post. I like to learn from all things: please tell me what I wrote that you think means that I think "continuing to explore idea isn't worth it..." as well as the rest of what you wrote.

Thanks,
Susanne

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 27, 2011, at 9:06 PM, yourbestself wrote:
>
> > No we don have relatives to help with this; they either don't get it or take our food
> > "choices," personally. And. I we don't have the income to farm out the work.
> > We already spend more money on food than the mortgage some months.
> >
> > So, that's why it's just not that easy for everyone.
>
>
> It's surprising what creative ideas people can come up with when they're determined to make something work.
>
> No one has to do any of what's discussed on the list.
>
> If someone can't figure out a way to do something that's being discussed, then they can't.
>
> As Henry Ford said, "Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right."
>
> But to decide that other people won't be able to do it because you've decided that continuing to explore the idea isn't worth it for your family, isn't helpful to anyone.
>
> Joyce
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

yourbestself

Thanks for posting this idea. Here & there, I've toyed w/ doing such a thing. And, I do sometimes double a batch of something for dinner to cook & freeze. But thanks again for posting it; I am going to consider it.

Susanne

--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> What if you spent two days a week, maybe even a month, and make loads and loads of things to freeze. I remember exploring the Walford diet at one point and reading stories of how they would deal with such labour intensive food. Lots spent a day a week prepping all their meals and then freezing the component parts. They made their own prepackaged foods. You could easily rely on the food processor to do lots and lots of chopping for you and then freeze all the bits in little boxes or baggies. You may have to invest in a chest freezer. I have no idea how much they cost. But it would probably make a load of difference for you on a day to day basis.
>
>
> Schuyler
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
> Now, things are getting a little easier because dh is home FT now with a job where his office is at home. No we don have relatives to help with this; they either don't get it or take our food "choices," personally. And. I we don't have the income to farm out the work. We already spend more money on food than the mortgage some months.
>
> So, that's why it's just not that easy for everyone.
>
> Susanne
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 28, 2011, at 12:09 PM, yourbestself wrote:

> please tell me what I wrote that you think means that I think "continuing to explore idea isn't worth it..." as well as the rest of what you wrote.

I was speaking more generally of tackling *any* problem not specifically to you.

If someone has overcome obstacles, it's often difficult to see the trials and errors and work that has gone into finding solutions to their difficulties. Especially if they're trying to find solutions AND put a particular set of principles into practice.

When people discuss principles it *does* often sound simplistic. But there can be a lot of arranging of the environment, a lot of learning how to listen more than talk, to get to the point of a principle like "Letting children choose."

So the statement "So, that's why it's just not that easy for everyone," could sit uncomfortably with people who have determinedly overcome even larger obstacles. It shouldn't be assume to be easy for anyone.

Maybe an analogy will help. Or just be more confusing ;-) If someone's goal is to eat organic, even eating a little bit of conventional food will be a failure. If someone's goal is to eat fewer chemicals, then eating as organic as they can will be eating fewer chemicals.

If someone's goal is to completely eliminate all conventional parenting and learning practices, well, they're likely to burn themselves out! If someone's goal is to draw the children in to decisions more and more as they figure out how to do it, they're more likely to succeed.

But they're less likely to succeed if they assume that it's easy for everyone who is doing it well.

Does that help?

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angeline Taylor

Joyce -

I just have to say I love your analogy! Because as someone old to
homeschooling yet very new to unschooling, but loving the philosophy behind
it along with dealing with deschooling, I find that this statement of
your's so true and so powerful.

I know we were talking food here, but I think we as humans, especially as
parents, we don't break down the smaller things as well as we should and
give ourselves credit. We get so caught up in the larger picture, the
ultimate goal that we get disgusted when we aren't reaching our unrealistic
potential in a time frame that probably isn't even human capable. I am very
guilty of this and either keep trying or give up feeling like a failure,
when actually I have success on some level, if only I can see that level.

So I am giving myself credit right now for just doing what I've done to
become aware of unschooling, and learning as much as I can absorb, knowing
that if I keep learning, listening to all the wise & sage advice to those
with experience in it, I will intergrate it into my life and that of my
children's when we are all ready for it.

Thank you!

Angie :)


> If someone's goal is to completely eliminate all conventional parenting
> and learning practices, well, they're likely to burn themselves out! If
> someone's goal is to draw the children in to decisions more and more as
> they figure out how to do it, they're more likely to succeed.
>
> But they're less likely to succeed if they assume that it's easy for
> everyone who is doing it well.
>
> Does that help?
>
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
"Angie" Angeline Taylor
-- Designs by Angeline --
"Taylor" made design for all your professional and personal needs!!
Including website development, graphics, photo enhancement, document
creation and alteration.
www.designsbyangeline.com
(805) 769-6875
angeline@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

"yourbestself" <susanne@...> wrote:
>> So, that's why it's just not that easy for everyone.

One of the big changes fundamental to unschooling is one of attitude. Many people on this list can compile laundry lists of woe, if we wanted to make a contest of it, but that sort of thinking gets in the way of living joyfully with our families. It helps enormously to shift your thinking to see what's wonderful in life.

There's an old zen saying I remind myself of whenever I start to go into "my life is so hard" mode: before enlightenment, carry water, chop wood. After enlightenment: carry water, chop wood. The pure drudgery of life doesn't necessarily go away, but the way you think about it can change. It doesn't Have to be drudgery. It can be something you embrace wholeheartedly.

A big, important place to begin is by taking a hard look at all the "have tos" in your life - that's something which will help all aspects of unschooling. Actively look for ways to change - change your circumstances, your expectations, your assumptions, you viewpoint.

>> I spend my life in the kitchen :-(

If you're not happy with that, change it ;)

One way is to re-evaluate the logistics of all that food prep, as Schuyler suggested, add some appliances (freezer, dishwasher, microwave, for instance). Look into the idea of "monkey platters", too - if you're spending a lot of time making "meals" it may be better to switch to prepping snacks so they kids can nibble more at will:

http://sandradodd.com/eating/monkeyplatter

You can also look for ways to re-organize your household and lifestyle so that you're doing food prep in and around children - either do more where they are, or make the kitchen the center of the home, with all the fun stuff there.

AND you can look for ways to feel good about all you do. If you're spending your days resenting being in the kitchen, you're serving your kids resentment and woe and undoing all the good of whatever you're cooking. They're not just bodies, after all, they're people - young, vulnerable people who depend on you for emotional sustenance as much as basic nutrition.

>>We already spend more money on food than the mortgage some months.

My family does every month! Then again, we have a very low mortgage ;) But at the same time, I've lived and cooked on very little money from time to time. There are ways to stretch the budget - and avoiding prepared foods is one of them, as is cooking in big batches. If you've been making lots of individual meals, that's eating up money And time.

It might be worth your while to plant a few easy-to-grow foods, like greens - in the house if necessary - and learn about wild harvesting. Those are both good ways to stretch your budge - vegetables are expensive! So the more you can do to cut out things like those Brussels sprouts entirely, the better. Wild harvesting is also a good way to spend an easy hour outside with little kids - and a good way for them to learn what's safe to eat and what is not.

But whatever you do, you and your family will be happier if you can approach it as a wonderful new adventure. Why else did you have kids? Your adventure is more challenging than you expected - hooray! You get to learn more, expand your mind and heart more, than you could ever have previously imagined!

---Meredith