ribadavia7

I've been following this list for two months now after a friend recommended it to me. So first off, I'm so glad it exists! It's really perfect for me and where I'm at.

I don't really have a question to ask. I just needed to vent while my kids are happily pretend playing. :)

I decided last year that I would start unschooling my children starting this summer & I've been doing a crappy job so far. My husband & I work in public schools (me, only one day a week) and you'd think that with what we've seen that I would embrace unschooling whole-heartedly & with confidence, but I have wavered on so many occasions. I knew that deschooling would be tough, but boy, I feel like a need a rehab center to go to - it's that difficult!!

What really makes me sad is that on those days where my insecurity has been the greatest I've told my kids that we're doing some "math practice" or play a board game or whatever, and since they've gotten used to doing what they like, they panic & moan ... and I don't think I need to explain much more. We've been invited to activities and playdates, but almost 100% of the time they don't want to go. I think I got so caught up in wanting to expose them to things & to learn in non-traditional ways (i.e. dice & board games), that I messed up.

I know I could have avoided so many negative moments by shutting up & just enjoying my time with them (or supporting them in some way). Observing what they do, rather than on what I want to see, and having positive, shared experiences. I regret my wishy-washiness & occasional coercion, and feel like we're back at square one again (or close to it), but it's better than where we were last year.

I also know that I have to absolutely not care about what other people think, and focus on what's best for my children ... not what others think is best for them.

Thank you all for keeping up this list. Joyce, if you read this, I forwarded my husband a passage you had written about math & I think he had a breakthrough moment! That right there made such a difference.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Nov 9, 2011, at 2:30 PM, ribadavia7 wrote:

> I regret my wishy-washiness & occasional coercion, and feel like
> we're back at square one again (or close to it), but it's better
> than where we were last year.

Yes, it's often said that every time you press school, the deschooling
clock gets reset. You could put up a sign somewhere that says "Do you
really want to resent the clock with something that doesn't even
work?" ;-)

> Joyce, if you read this, I forwarded my husband a passage you had
> written about math & I think he had a breakthrough moment! That
> right there made such a difference.

Cool! Glad it was helpful :-)

Joyce

Karen

I think that I'd find unschooling difficult if I worked in a public
school. It's easier to unschool when you're surrounded by like-minded
families. I find than even when I hang out with school-at-homers, the
doubt often creeps back in. I can only imagine what it'd be like to be
reminded on a regular basis what's normally being taught to kids the same
age as your own. Regardless of how much you believe unschooling is the
right way to go, it can be difficult going against the norm.

I say all that to say, that you're not alone-- and you've got things
working against you.

Good luck!
Karen in NC



On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 2:30 PM, ribadavia7 <ebdietz@...> wrote:

> **
>
> I decided last year that I would start unschooling my children starting
> this summer & I've been doing a crappy job so far. My husband & I work in
> public schools (me, only one day a week) and you'd think that with what
> we've seen that I would embrace unschooling whole-heartedly & with
> confidence, but I have wavered on so many occasions. I knew that
> deschooling would be tough, but boy, I feel like a need a rehab center to
> go to - it's that difficult!!
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Rossing

Next time you get those "twinges", instead of sitting the kids down to bookwork, sit yourself down with a notepad and pen and jot down all the things the kids have been doing over the last few days. EVERYTHING - what TV programs/DVDs did they watch? What toys did they play with? What pretend play story lines are they playing out? Did you run around the yard chasing butterflies? Did they scooch down to watch wee tiny bugs on the dandelions? And so on.

Then sort it or categorize it - many folks do this anyhow because they have to do year-end reports to comply with state laws. Really think about what was involved - most things in life fit in a bunch of categories at once. Baking cookies (because it's baking cookie season NOT as a lesson, as you've already noticed they're gun shy about 'school lessons') includes reading, arithmetic (measurement, time, counting), following instructions, nutrition, science (try leaving the flour out of the chocolate chip cookies sometime or leave out the baking powder). Might also include grocery shopping (more arithmetic, nutrition, maybe other stuff). It might also include history and geography (is it a recipe handed down from great-grandma who was born in Germany?) It might include auditory learning (listening to you tell stories about when you made these cookies with your mom). It might include community service if you bring some to a neighbor. It might include art if they're decorated sugar cookies (what happens if they put both the red and green sugar on the same cookie? what about the yellow and red sugar? What if they mix food coloring for different color glazes?) That's a BIG chunk of "subjects" but they don't lay themselves all out in neat little boxes all labeled and time boxed as they do when you've got "math lessons time" and "reading time" and so on. Which is why it can help when you're getting started to write it out and learn to SEE the learning going on. After a time, you won't need to do that (unless, again, it's needed for legal reporting) because you'll have deschooled your own self and learned to trust the learning that is happening. It's a lot like a garden - you put the seeds in the ground; you water, maybe weed a bit, hope there's not a freak spring snowstorm, and you wait. All the initial growth is invisible to you - trying to check on it involves basically killing that growth by pulling up the plant to check the roots. And then lo and behold out springs a wee green sprout. You can water, weed, wait some more or you can root up that sprout to check the growth - and again, kill it in the process. You have to trust that growth is happening and that in some weeks from now you'll have some yummy produce. And when that produce arrives, how exciting is that! Because you simply watered, weeded, maybe added compost, and waited and the growth happened (maybe even in spite of you!)

Deb R



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Deb

Whew! I thought I was the only one lol. Seriously I have been having the same kinds of feelings myself lately and like you, try suggesting what I think would be at least "like learning". That's the term I use when attempting to justify what I'm doing to my son. I tell myself that a little nudge of my son into something more like learning is what he "should" be doing anyway. But I realize every time he balks at me that it's not about him it's about my insecurities with the process. I hadn't thought of the clock analogy and that just makes me more frustrated with myself that now, I guess we're back at square one because I asked him to let me read him a book or check out one of his interests on the Internet.
I do see that he's learning things and he's absolutely happier with unschooling. That has to be enough for me I guess for now. I just really wish I had an idea of when this self-led learning thing will kick in. I mean if I play by the rules and don't interfere at all, about how long should it take for him to start blooming? If I sound confused, I am. I'm stuck between my heart telling me this is the best for him, and my head wanting to see something tangible. I'd like to think that it has nothing to do with what other kids are doing but I know that I go there sometimes in my head.
By the way, right now he's writing a song with lyrics on the piano and he's never had a lesson. I guess he is blooming. Wow. I'm glad this board is here. This is my first post I think but I have been lurking for a while. Thanks for all your wisdom and sincerity.














--- In [email protected], "ribadavia7" <ebdietz@...> wrote:
>
> I've been following this list for two months now after a friend recommended it to me. So first off, I'm so glad it exists! It's really perfect for me and where I'm at.
>
>

Cindy Frosch

This was *exactly* what I needed to read. Note to self: Sit thyself down with paper .. not my child.


From: Debra Rossing
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 9:23 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Deschooling sucks



Next time you get those "twinges", instead of sitting the kids down to bookwork, sit yourself down with a notepad and pen and jot down all the things the kids have been doing over the last few days. EVERYTHING - what TV programs/DVDs did they watch? What toys did they play with? What pretend play story lines are they playing out? Did you run around the yard chasing butterflies? Did they scooch down to watch wee tiny bugs on the dandelions? And so on.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Nov 10, 2011, at 12:35 PM, Deb wrote:

> I just really wish I had an idea of when this self-led learning
> thing will kick in.

It already has since he was born. The question is, when will you stop
looking at him through schoolish glasses that keeps you from seeing
it :-)

> I mean if I play by the rules and don't interfere at all, about how
> long

Rule of thumb is one month for each year he was in school. It can be
more if the experience was particularly bad.

> should it take for him to start blooming?

Don't look for learning to bloom. Help him be happy. Help him find
what interests them. Find projects that aren't him for when he's busy
so you aren't hovering over him waiting for something to happen!

> If I sound confused, I am. I'm stuck between my heart telling me
> this is the best for him, and my head wanting to see something
> tangible. I'd like to think that it has nothing to do with what
> other kids are doing but I know that I go there sometimes in my head.

It always takes a while for the head to catch up to the heart. The
head is full of examples and justification and support for why the old
way of thinking is right.

Try reading:Products of Education
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/products

and Why You Can't Let Go:
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk

And then go to Sandra's random page:
http://sandradodd.com/random

And keep getting new pages :-)

Joyce

Meredith

"Deb" <vwb777@...> wrote:
>> I do see that he's learning things and he's absolutely happier with unschooling. That has to be enough for me I guess for now.
******************

It may help to take some time and think about why "absolutely happier" doesn't feel like enough. There are big, old cultural expectations that learning is hard and unpleasant - both "is" and "should be" hard and unpleasant. Those ideas tie into a lot of other biases and discrimination, too - discrimination against women in general and moms in particular, but also against joyfulness in a general sense, as though "most men live lives of quiet desperation" were some kind of recipe for adulthood, not a lament.

"Absolutely happier" is big. It's vastly big and important. His Whole Life is better if he's happier.

Human beings are wired to learn, driven to learn - so learning Feels Good to us. It's self-rewarding if you like. We like learning so much that we call times of not-learning "tedium" and we strive to avoid that. So happiness in and of itself is a good sign that some learning is happening. The catch, from a deschooling point of view, is that real learning doesn't look like school learning. It looks like living life.

It might help to take some time and think about what learning Is - what it's for and how it works in real life, adult life. Some learning involves taking in bits of information or gaining new skills, but most of the time learning doesn't look like either of those things, it's both subtle and going on all the time. Sandra has collected so many essays and comments on the subject of what learning is and looks like that I'm going to bombard you with links for a moment ;) When you start thinking about "nudging" your kid, go read some of them. Follow down the extra links and read more. Go back and read things you read months ago and see if they make more (or different!) sense the next time - You're learning too. That's part of what makes deschooling hard, You're on the big uphill sweep of the learning curve and maybe can't even see the "top" yet:

http://sandradodd.com/pam/principles
http://sandradodd.com/puddle
http://sandradodd.com/connections/
http://sandradodd.com/nest
http://sandradodd.com/howto/
http://sandradodd.com/substance
http://sandradodd.com/typical

That last, the "Typical days" are really more like "the kinds of days which stand out for one reason or another" - don't think your life has to look like that all the time. What's good about those stories, though, is they're great snapshots of moments when parents realize "aha! this unschooling thing is Really Working!"

Here's a great quote on the "substance" page:
"We have a compost pile, and it's kind of amazing how it seems at first that the food and leaves and sticks and banana peels and dog poop will never do anything but sit there looking like garbage, but when I stop watching it, it turns to solid black, rich dirt! I can't find any parts of the elements of which it's made. It's kind of like that with my kids. It took me a few years to quit watching them and trust that it would compost."---Sandra Dodd

---Meredith

mitrisue

--- In [email protected], "Deb" <vwb777@...> wrote:
> I just really wish I had an idea of when this self-led learning
> thing will kick in.

It has kicked in. It kicked in the moment he was born. :)

He's learning what he likes. He's learning how to operate in a new more open environment. He's adjusting to change. He's savoring little pleasures. He's forging a new relationship with you. He's getting in touch with his own motivation. He's learning so much!

Julie

Debra Rossing

> I just really wish I had an idea of when this self-led learning thing will kick in.
> By the way, right now he's writing a song with lyrics on the piano and he's never had a lesson

It is kicking in - he's fine. You're still looking for something that looks like school with discrete boxes or packets of info "okay, that's history for 30 minutes, now 20 minutes of writing, etc...)" Often it's all swirled together as tools to get something done. Writing a song with lyrics - that's HUGE! That's poetry, handwriting, spelling, music, and math right there (music is very mathematical - just ask any of the classical composers - oh wait they're mostly de-composing by now LOL!) It just doesn't look all divided up and schoolish. He may NEVER pick up a textbook - so what? There's more history all around in the real world than any textbook. My DS has instigated more "history" discussions because of TV and movies than any textbook would get into. If there's something that catches his attention, he asks. The big Caveat to when kids start asking questions is that us grown-ups don't turn it into a "lesson". Answer first with the shortest possible answer and wait to see if more information is requested (verbally or non-verbally) before running on at the mouth. If you don't know, say so and go look it up YOURSELF - and invite the kids along with you (and it's okay if they say No, I'll wait for you to check it out). Consider it like a friend - if a friend who knows you love history calls you and asks a question that you don't know the answer to right off, do you say "go look it up yourself" or do you say "I don't know off hand but I know right where to look for it - call you back in 5 minutes". Treat your kids the same way. If they're interested, show them how you find the information. If they're only interested in the information, not the process, that's fine too.

Deb R



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Christen

I'm new to this group and still in the deschooling phase too, though I've been doing some "composting" of my own on unschooling for the last year or so.

I loved reading this thread. Yeah--I feel a lot of anxiety about this too. I think it helps to label it anxiety and recognize that it will pass--and that worry isn't necessarily based on reality.

As I have done the same things as you--suggesting learning games, etc., and seen that backfire, my mantra has become "connect more, direct less." So I have been offering to play games with the kids, but I ask them what they want to play, and I don't even suggest a "learning" game. :) (Of course, they are ALL learning games).

I'd like to question the "setting back the clock" analogy. Yes, I know it is a setback when we coerce or act in our old schoolish ways, but it is also a learning experience. I think the clock analogy could be a helpful warning for us to recognize that no, we don't want to move backwards, but I think it could be unhelpful for those of us who may beat ourselves up over our mistakes or backwards steps. I don't really believe that it takes us back to the beginning because we do learn from those moments--and if we are humble about it, our kids will learn something too. In learning a completely new paradigm we are all bound to act and think in the old way from time to time, and I think it's important to notice that we did so, and to give ourselves grace and space to learn and fail and experiment(like we are trying to give our kids!), and then to just get back on the horse, so to speak. I think learning to be patient with ourselves in this process will be really valuable to our kids and ourselves, and everyone around us.

I do love that this is a place to vent. I think we need that--whether it's here or on paper, like someone suggested--somewhere to express our anxieties other than to our kids.

I'm glad to have found this group.
Warmly,
Christen

[email protected]

As I was reading, I was thinking I would post, "He IS blooming!" But you got to it before the end of the post. Good for you. Enjoy! :)

Nance


--- In [email protected], "Deb" <vwb777@...> wrote:
>
> Whew! I thought I was the only one lol. Seriously I have been having the same kinds of feelings myself lately and like you, try suggesting what I think would be at least "like learning". That's the term I use when attempting to justify what I'm doing to my son. I tell myself that a little nudge of my son into something more like learning is what he "should" be doing anyway. But I realize every time he balks at me that it's not about him it's about my insecurities with the process. I hadn't thought of the clock analogy and that just makes me more frustrated with myself that now, I guess we're back at square one because I asked him to let me read him a book or check out one of his interests on the Internet.
> I do see that he's learning things and he's absolutely happier with unschooling. That has to be enough for me I guess for now. I just really wish I had an idea of when this self-led learning thing will kick in. I mean if I play by the rules and don't interfere at all, about how long should it take for him to start blooming? If I sound confused, I am. I'm stuck between my heart telling me this is the best for him, and my head wanting to see something tangible. I'd like to think that it has nothing to do with what other kids are doing but I know that I go there sometimes in my head.
> By the way, right now he's writing a song with lyrics on the piano and he's never had a lesson. I guess he is blooming. Wow. I'm glad this board is here. This is my first post I think but I have been lurking for a while. Thanks for all your wisdom and sincerity.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "ribadavia7" <ebdietz@> wrote:
> >
> > I've been following this list for two months now after a friend recommended it to me. So first off, I'm so glad it exists! It's really perfect for me and where I'm at.
> >
> >
>

ribadavia7

> I think it's important to notice that we did so, and to give ourselves grace and space to learn and fail and experiment(like we are trying to give our kids!), and then to just get back on the horse, so to speak. I think learning to be patient with ourselves in this process will be really valuable to our kids and ourselves, and everyone around us.
>

What a wonderful way to look at it. Maybe I am back at square one for deschooling, but it's step 2 for me! :)

My daughter just asked me before she took a nap if there are kids who homeschool on some days & go to public school a couple days of week. I told her that I think there are some charter schools around here that offer that. She replied, "I am sooooo glad we're homeschooling all the time!!"

Christen, you also brought up a good point. Is it wrong to offer to read a book to your child as someone mentioned??? I didn't think it was if it's something you think s/he might be interested in. I'll occasionally offer to read to my kids, but if they say no, I don't care or make a fuss out of it.

I do admit having offered MORE when I felt anxiety about them not "learning," so I'm conscientious of only asking when I really think they'd like to hang out & read. From Pam Sorooshian's writings, I got the feeling that you shouldn't necessarily always "wait" for your children to always ask you to do things or to show them things. Now as a person who is deschooling (and with a past history of mild coercion), I totally do not want to engage in much of this. At this point, I'd rather watch them & learn.

Thank you everyone.

Erica
California

Joyce Fetteroll

On Nov 11, 2011, at 1:43 PM, Christen wrote:

> I think the clock analogy could be a helpful warning for us to
> recognize that no, we don't want to move backwards, but I think it
> could be unhelpful for those of us who may beat ourselves up over
> our mistakes or backwards steps.

And what of the people for whom it was just the thing they needed to
hear?

There will be advice here that's too gentle for some to absorb that's
exactly what someone else needed. There will be advice here that will
make some people uncomfortable that is what someone else needed.

Mostly, here, the advice leans towards very bluntly stated ideas.
That's the flavor of this particular list. Other lists have other
flavors. If someone prefers Wendy's hamburgers they shouldn't expect
McDonalds to adjust to their preferences.

> I don't really believe that it takes us back to the beginning
> because we do learn from those moments--and if we are humble about
> it, our kids will learn something too.

Some people don't see the bad effects (in a timely fashion) though.
For some people the school ways are so tied up with what's right in
their minds that they can't get that big rock out that's blocking
their vision.

The beauty of unschooling is the fact that, in a rich supportive
environment, kids will learn what they need in their own time. *BUT*
that process doesn't mean they'll learn something when someone else
needs them to learn it. (Which is why we steer the kids away from
demands they don't want to tackle yet.)

That learning process works for adults too, but adults often have
baggage that gets in the way of them grasping certain ideas. (Most
kids can shed it in a few months through deschooling.)

For moms figuring out unschooling, though, they can't put their kids
on hold while the moms figure out unschooling at a natural pace. A 10
yo child doesn't have 5 or 10 years for a mom to have an epiphany
about where her baggage is getting in her own way of figuring out
unschooling.

There's a huge amount to figure out to make unschooling run smoothly.
A lot of it *can* be learned baby steps at a time. But there are some
really big ideas that need to be grasped Right Now for unschooling to
even begin. One of those is that reviving school while a child is
recovering from school is going to be damaging to that recovery, just
as straining a torn muscle before it's healed will tear it again. Will
it set every child back to the beginning? No, of course not. (Depends
how far along they are in healing. Depends on personality. Depends on
how damaged they are and in what ways.) But deschooling will go much
smoother if every deschooling parent behaved as if it would reset
their kids.

Letting go of the baggage blocking understanding unschooling is
*hard*. The baggage is comforting. New ideas that we haven't built a
lifetime of confidence in are scary.

But to get unschooling running smoothly -- before the kids leave home
-- moms need to embrace a crapload of discomfort as part of the
process. Every time mom takes a step backward into their comfort zone
they hamper themselves *and* their kids.

The problem is the comfort zone is comforting! The "reseting the
clock" idea is intended to make the comfort zone look less comforting
to help people who want to make progress, who don't want to step
backwards, to not make that choice.

Maybe you've gotten the point I was trying to make, but I like
analogies ;-) If you're dropped into a foreign country without knowing
the language, to get on with life you need to learn some of the
language. The more you learn, the better the quality of your life. If
there's a group of English speakers, spending time with them would be
a relief from the discomfort of hurdling the language barrier for even
the simplest day to day thing. *If* someone used the group as respite
to recharge, that would be a good thing. But we humans (all animals
really) are ... not seekers of comfort (otherwise we'd never leave
home or climb Mt. Everest ;-) ... but we don't want the discomfort to
be more than the benefits of what we're trying to do. We don't want
the trials of a trip up Mt. Everest to get to the grocery store ;-)
We want the payoff to match the discomfort. And until someone fully
gets the payoff of unschooling or learning a language -- that may be
*years* away -- the day to day discomfort is daunting and makes them
retreat to their comfort zone.

Whether it's getting a decent meal in a land where you can't speak the
language or getting the kids to learn math, the discomfort of the new
ways seems excessive for what you want. It'd be much easier for the
kids to do a page of math than to spend weeks and months feeling
uncomfortable while the kids play video games and you wait for
"unschooling math" to happen.

It's like climbing the hurdles of a language barrier in Japan to seek
mom's pot roast in Japanese restaurants ;-) You'll be much happier if
you seek a Japanese meals that you like.

With unschooling, you not only have to learn a new way of supporting
kids (the new language) but you're looking for something entirely new
(the delights of a totally different cuisine.)

> In learning a completely new paradigm we are all bound to act and
> think in the old way from time to time, and I think it's important
> to notice that we did so, and to give ourselves grace and space to
> learn and fail and experiment(like we are trying to give our kids!),
> and then to just get back on the horse, so to speak. I think
> learning to be patient with ourselves in this process will be really
> valuable to our kids and ourselves, and everyone around us.


It might be personality or it might be the result of the message
someone received as a child (probably both) that gives some people the
idea that mistakes are bad. That the goal is to be perfect and
anything less than perfect is bad.

The people who enjoy this list the most, the people who have stayed to
contribute once they've gotten it, tend to be people who accept as a
given that we're imperfect. That we're all works in progress. That
mistakes -- learning-takes as Kelly Lovejoy calls them :-) -- are part
of the process of learning something new.

The focus here -- because it's the target audience for the list --
isn't on how hard this is. That's a given for the target audience.
(Though it's helpful to hear it acknowledge occasionally :-) The focus
is on how hard but what to do to make it less hard. The focus is on
where we're headed so the choices we make keep us moving in that
direction and not away.

Some people outside of the core audience will find value on this list
but it will be more uncomfortable for them. If it's so uncomfortable
they can't hear anything useful, they can do themselves and their kids
a favor and find a list or group that does work for them. But the
message here needs to keep focused on the needs of the target audience
or it will devolve into being just somewhat useful to everyone rather
than really really useful to the people it's trying to reach.

So:

> but I think it could be unhelpful for those of us


if you think something could be said in a way that is clearer to some,
do add it :-) But not so great to say "Don't," to messages that have
proven to be useful to many already.

Joyce

Meredith

"ribadavia7" <ebdietz@...> wrote:
>> Christen, you also brought up a good point. Is it wrong to offer to read a book to your child as someone mentioned??? I didn't think it was if it's something you think s/he might be interested in.
**************

It depends entirely on the needs of each individual child. For some kids who are still deschooling (and especially kids who are deschooling from home-education) even offering to read a book can seem like mom trying to sneak more "learning experiences" into a day and set up resistance. For some kids, it's better to avoid anything that might be construed (by the child) as "educational" for awhile - reading, trips to the zoo or museums, even card and board games. They need time to trust that learning isn't something which needs to be shoved at them at every turn.

But other kids will be thrilled to spend long hours cuddled up with mom "doing nothing" but reading together, or will Want to play endless games of Balderdash or Settlers of Catan. It all depends on personality and the specific experiences that child has had around "learning".

When Ray was first home, after homeschooling And public school, the closest he wanted to come to "learning" was learning to play a new video game! He played a loooooot of video games for awhile - for over a year he played for hours and hours every day. Now, five years later, he rarely plays any at all and is more often in our woodshop or working at his forge. This morning he skipped into the house all excited to show off a successful piece for a metal sculpture he's creating - his first success after something like half a dozen failures as he's learning a new technique. When he was in school and homeschooling, the least difficulty would have him wanting to give up. Now, he chalks each failure up to the learning process and goes on, excited about what he's doing even when it's hard and tedious and fraught with challenges. It didn't happen overnight, but it's pretty cool to be able to look back and see the changes.

---Meredith

Christen

Joyce,
I feel like my message must have come across quite differently than I intended. Because the list does " leans towards very bluntly stated ideas," that's why I thought it would be ok to voice a differing opinion. I didn't mean it as an attack or criticism, but rather as exploration and dialogue between people who are on the same side. I'm really sorry I caused offense. I hope that will not be a barrier to my continued participation here, as I do consider it a valuable group.
Thanks,
Christen

[email protected]

>...Now, five years later, he rarely plays any at all and is more often in our woodshop or working at his forge.

Meredith, can you post pictures, or is there a place to see what your son's forge looks like? Just the thought of a home forge is intriguing.

I've been lurking on the list for a month or so. Since this is my first post, I suppose some introduction is in order.

We're in the info gathering phase of unschooling. We adopted our four kids three years ago. They're now 11, 10, 7 and 6. A lot of change has already happened in our home. If we take the plunge, I would be the one to stay home with them. Ironically, my job for the last couple of years has been computer programming for the local school district, developing academic dashboards. I've seen the factory model of education from the inside. It isn't pretty.

Thanks to all who keep this list alive.

Steve

Meredith

"stephen-kirk@..." <slkirk@...> wrote:
> Meredith, can you post pictures, or is there a place to see what your son's forge looks like? Just the thought of a home forge is intriguing.
>

Here's his facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/DismalCrafts

He's my stepson, btw.

---Meredith

Meredith

"Christen" <cwhansel@...> wrote:
> I didn't mean it as an attack or criticism, but rather as exploration and dialogue between people who are on the same side. I'm really sorry I caused offense.
***************

There's no need to apologize and I didn't see Joyce reacting with offense - I saw her continuing the dialogue and exploring more nuances of the subject. That's part of how this list works, too.

---Meredith

Deb

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. My son actually did have quite a traumatic experience at school so I can see where he may need a lot more time just to "be". The last thing I want to do is to make him regress because of my schoolish attitudes. It seems they creep up on me at the wrong times. Like when he's in a bad mood or whining because he's bored. Those are the times when I'm tempted to be a teacher instead of his guide.








--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Nov 10, 2011, at 12:35 PM, Deb wrote:
>
> > I just really wish I had an idea of when this self-led learning
> > thing will kick in.
>
> It already has since he was born. The question is, when will you stop
> looking at him through schoolish glasses that keeps you from seeing
> it :-)
>
> > I mean if I play by the rules and don't interfere at all, about how
> > long
>
> Rule of thumb is one month for each year he was in school. It can be
> more if the experience was particularly bad.
>
> > should it take for him to start blooming?
>
> Don't look for learning to bloom. Help him be happy. Help him find
> what interests them. Find projects that aren't him for when he's busy
> so you aren't hovering over him waiting for something to happen!
>
> > If I sound confused, I am. I'm stuck between my heart telling me
> > this is the best for him, and my head wanting to see something
> > tangible. I'd like to think that it has nothing to do with what
> > other kids are doing but I know that I go there sometimes in my head.
>
> It always takes a while for the head to catch up to the heart. The
> head is full of examples and justification and support for why the old
> way of thinking is right.
>
> Try reading:Products of Education
> http://sandradodd.com/joyce/products
>
> and Why You Can't Let Go:
> http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk
>
> And then go to Sandra's random page:
> http://sandradodd.com/random
>
> And keep getting new pages :-)
>
> Joyce
>

Deb

I love the plant analogy. That's definitely one for me to work on. I feel like although I don't say anything to my son about what he's doing progression wise, I am constantly on the lookout for things he's picked up. Like when he reads something that I didn't know he knew I make a big deal about it. Or if he's interested in something like animals or gorillas (his latest thing), I guess I assign value to those things based on how he could learn something from them. Another thing I'm guilty of that I would like to change is that if he shows the slightest interest in something new, I want to look it up on the Internet, got to the library, make a field trip related to it, or whatever hits me as being educational. I guess the thing is I still sort of think of myself as his teacher so I feel like I'm letting him down or stunting his learning if I don't step in somehow.
Anyway, thanks for your post, it was very enlightening.

Deborah











--- In [email protected], Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...> wrote:
>
> Next time you get those "twinges", instead of sitting the kids down to bookwork, sit yourself down with a notepad and pen and jot down all the things the kids have been doing over the last few days. EVERYTHING - what TV programs/DVDs did they watch? What toys did they play with? What pretend play story lines are they playing out? Did you run around the yard chasing butterflies? Did they scooch down to watch wee tiny bugs on the dandelions? And so on.
>
> Then sort it or categorize it - many folks do this anyhow because they have to do year-end reports to comply with state laws. Really think about what was involved - most things in life fit in a bunch of categories at once. Baking cookies (because it's baking cookie season NOT as a lesson, as you've already noticed they're gun shy about 'school lessons') includes reading, arithmetic (measurement, time, counting), following instructions, nutrition, science (try leaving the flour out of the chocolate chip cookies sometime or leave out the baking powder). Might also include grocery shopping (more arithmetic, nutrition, maybe other stuff). It might also include history and geography (is it a recipe handed down from great-grandma who was born in Germany?) It might include auditory learning (listening to you tell stories about when you made these cookies with your mom). It might include community service if you bring some to a neighbor. It might include art if they're decorated sugar cookies (what happens if they put both the red and green sugar on the same cookie? what about the yellow and red sugar? What if they mix food coloring for different color glazes?) That's a BIG chunk of "subjects" but they don't lay themselves all out in neat little boxes all labeled and time boxed as they do when you've got "math lessons time" and "reading time" and so on. Which is why it can help when you're getting started to write it out and learn to SEE the learning going on. After a time, you won't need to do that (unless, again, it's needed for legal reporting) because you'll have deschooled your own self and learned to trust the learning that is happening. It's a lot like a garden - you put the seeds in the ground; you water, maybe weed a bit, hope there's not a freak spring snowstorm, and you wait. All the initial growth is invisible to you - trying to check on it involves basically killing that growth by pulling up the plant to check the roots. And then lo and behold out springs a wee green sprout. You can water, weed, wait some more or you can root up that sprout to check the growth - and again, kill it in the process. You have to trust that growth is happening and that in some weeks from now you'll have some yummy produce. And when that produce arrives, how exciting is that! Because you simply watered, weeded, maybe added compost, and waited and the growth happened (maybe even in spite of you!)
>
> Deb R
>
>
>
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Meredith

"Deb" <vwb777@...> wrote:
>Like when he's in a bad mood or whining because he's bored. Those are the times when I'm tempted to be a teacher instead of his guide.
****************

Rather than either of those, be his friend - the good friend who has time for him when he needs it. Kids often say "bored" when they need attention - and parents reinforce that by stopping and helping them "find something to do" but without fully filling up that need. So instead of finding something for him to do, offer to spend some time with him. Watch a movie together. Read or listen to an audio book together. Run an errand. It doesn't have to be anything exciting or special - spending time together is special enough.

---Meredith

Debra Rossing

? Those are the times when I'm tempted to be a teacher instead of his guide.

Rather than teacher or guide, maybe consider it like a love story. When you're dating someone, you don't try to guide or teach them. You drink deeply of whatever moves, inspires, empassions them. If that person loves Beethoven, you don't compare/contrast with Bach and Brahms or explain the mathematical underpinnings or the musical scale or the historical context. You listen and enjoy with them (even if you don't particularly like Beethoven, you can enjoy their enjoyment), you might keep an eye out for local concerts, new CDs (maybe the Boston Pops just released a Beethoven performance), and so on. If you note that some other composer or piece of music sounds (to you) like something that Beloved might enjoy, you introduce it *no strings attached*

--Deb R

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