Happy?
strange_translation
Hello, all. Something I read the other day from Sandra Dodd (I think) has been worrying me-- about how all learning is making connections but if your child is unhappy or angry then that's what she's connecting with (to loosely and badly paraphrase ;-)). Well, my daughter gets angry and unhappy a LOT, and I've been kind of slogging through the days and trying to remain patient. But I don't want to go on like this if there's something I can do to make my daughter's life happier. She's seven, so I try to tell myself it's an age thing; but it's always been like this to some degree. We live in a fairly rural area, but have museums, etc. not too far away. My daughter has tried and quit many sports and arts activities, and doesn't like anyone in our local homeschool group. We have videogame systems, lots of books and toys, pets, and my daughter has my attention all day and then all night too because she likes to sleep with me. At one time I thought she'd be happier if she had some time to herself, but if she doesn't have my full attention at all times she gets super upset and really acts out. Sorry to run on, but the point is, what more can I offer or change? I'm willing to do anything-- the years fly by so fast and I'd like her to have a happy childhood but it feels like time is running out. Any suggestions would be considered and appreciated. Thanks!
plaidpanties666
"strange_translation" <senlin_says@...> wrote:
There are kids who find childhood itself very hard and don't enjoy being children much. That's an idea that runs contrary to a common expectation that childhood "should" be happy and carefree.
Which isn't to say you should just shrug your shoulders and say "oh well" ;) It's good to look for what more you can do to make her life easier and more pleasant.
Giving her more attention would be a Really good idea!
My stepson needed a Huge amount of attention when he was younger - it seemed overwhelming and excessive to pretty much everyone around him right up until I actually started giving him as much attention as he wanted. And then he only need a Lot of attention ;) But until he was getting enough on a regular basis he would soak up every tiny bit of attention and clamor for more.
Think about it this way - if you're wet and it's uncomfortable and you can only get 3/4 of the way dry, you're still wet and uncomfortable. Similarly, if you need eight hours of sleep and get six, you'll still be tired - and if you get six on a regular basis you'll be overtired and cranky on a regular basis. That's how it feels to get not-quite-enough attention.
Lavish her with your time and care. If she likes your company, do nearly everything with her. If she likes to talk, talk to her for hours on end. It sounds like a lot, but I can tell you from personal experience that it *isn't* more work to meet a big need proactively - its not more work than dealing with all those meltdowns and quarrels that come from the need not getting met! If anything, once you get used to it its so much less stressful to meet that big need proactively that it Feels like less work. You get some of your energy back in the reduction of strife in your family.
---Meredith
> Well, my daughter gets angry and unhappy a LOT, and I've been kind of slogging through the days and trying to remain patient. But I don't want to go on like this if there's something I can do to make my daughter's life happier.***************
There are kids who find childhood itself very hard and don't enjoy being children much. That's an idea that runs contrary to a common expectation that childhood "should" be happy and carefree.
Which isn't to say you should just shrug your shoulders and say "oh well" ;) It's good to look for what more you can do to make her life easier and more pleasant.
>> if she doesn't have my full attention at all times she gets super upset and really acts out.*****************
Giving her more attention would be a Really good idea!
My stepson needed a Huge amount of attention when he was younger - it seemed overwhelming and excessive to pretty much everyone around him right up until I actually started giving him as much attention as he wanted. And then he only need a Lot of attention ;) But until he was getting enough on a regular basis he would soak up every tiny bit of attention and clamor for more.
Think about it this way - if you're wet and it's uncomfortable and you can only get 3/4 of the way dry, you're still wet and uncomfortable. Similarly, if you need eight hours of sleep and get six, you'll still be tired - and if you get six on a regular basis you'll be overtired and cranky on a regular basis. That's how it feels to get not-quite-enough attention.
Lavish her with your time and care. If she likes your company, do nearly everything with her. If she likes to talk, talk to her for hours on end. It sounds like a lot, but I can tell you from personal experience that it *isn't* more work to meet a big need proactively - its not more work than dealing with all those meltdowns and quarrels that come from the need not getting met! If anything, once you get used to it its so much less stressful to meet that big need proactively that it Feels like less work. You get some of your energy back in the reduction of strife in your family.
---Meredith
strange_translation
This is interesting and good to hear. I do give her all my attention unless I need to briefly pay bills or do an un-ignoreable chore, but she's very resentful of even those brief times. Companionship isn't enough; she wants the focus on her. And everyone in my 'real world' who has an opinion believes that the attention is the problem: not the lack of it. But it hurts me to deny her (especially since I enjoy her and WANT to be doing what she's doing), so I don't. And it's nice to hear "give her more" rather than "give her less," for once. :-)
--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
>
> Giving her more attention would be a Really good idea!
>
> My stepson needed a Huge amount of attention when he was younger - it seemed overwhelming and excessive to pretty much everyone around him right up until I actually started giving him as much attention as he wanted. And then he only need a Lot of attention ;) But until he was getting enough on a regular basis he would soak up every tiny bit of attention and clamor for more.
>
> Think about it this way - if you're wet and it's uncomfortable and you can only get 3/4 of the way dry, you're still wet and uncomfortable. Similarly, if you need eight hours of sleep and get six, you'll still be tired - and if you get six on a regular basis you'll be overtired and cranky on a regular basis. That's how it feels to get not-quite-enough attention.
>
> Lavish her with your time and care. If she likes your company, do nearly everything with her. If she likes to talk, talk to her for hours on end. It sounds like a lot, but I can tell you from personal experience that it *isn't* more work to meet a big need proactively - its not more work than dealing with all those meltdowns and quarrels that come from the need not getting met! If anything, once you get used to it its so much less stressful to meet that big need proactively that it Feels like less work. You get some of your energy back in the reduction of strife in your family.
>
> ---Meredith
>
Lauren McLaughlin
Thanks for your wonderful post, Meredith. I too have a 7 year old daughter who is angry alot. I have 2 other kids and sometimes find myself resisting her demands for more attention because it does feel overwhelming. For me this post seems like a way to let go of the resentment I sometimes feel towards her because of her big need and instead relax into the moment and try to be really present with her.
It reminds me of when my children were babies and were breastfeeding. I nursed on demand and sometimes had to just stop everything, sit down and nurse one of my little ones for as long as necessary. Those are precious memories now and if I can work on giving her attention in that same way, I am certain we would have more peace in our home!!
Lauren
It reminds me of when my children were babies and were breastfeeding. I nursed on demand and sometimes had to just stop everything, sit down and nurse one of my little ones for as long as necessary. Those are precious memories now and if I can work on giving her attention in that same way, I am certain we would have more peace in our home!!
Lauren
> --- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
> > Lavish her with your time and care. If she likes your company, do nearly everything with her. If she likes to talk, talk to her for hours on end. It sounds like a lot, but I can tell you from personal experience that it *isn't* more work to meet a big need proactively - its not more work than dealing with all those meltdowns and quarrels that come from the need not getting met! If anything, once you get used to it its so much less stressful to meet that big need proactively that it Feels like less work. You get some of your energy back in the reduction of strife in your family.
> >
> > ---Meredith
[email protected]
What is it exactly that she is getting "angry and unhappy" about?
Does she say she is unhappy?
Trying to picture whether it is a moodiness or frustration at doing something difficult or what?
Nance
Does she say she is unhappy?
Trying to picture whether it is a moodiness or frustration at doing something difficult or what?
Nance
--- In [email protected], "strange_translation" <senlin_says@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, all. Something I read the other day from Sandra Dodd (I think) has been worrying me-- about how all learning is making connections but if your child is unhappy or angry then that's what she's connecting with (to loosely and badly paraphrase ;-)). Well, my daughter gets angry and unhappy a LOT, and I've been kind of slogging through the days and trying to remain patient. But I don't want to go on like this if there's something I can do to make my daughter's life happier. She's seven, so I try to tell myself it's an age thing; but it's always been like this to some degree. We live in a fairly rural area, but have museums, etc. not too far away. My daughter has tried and quit many sports and arts activities, and doesn't like anyone in our local homeschool group. We have videogame systems, lots of books and toys, pets, and my daughter has my attention all day and then all night too because she likes to sleep with me. At one time I thought she'd be happier if she had some time to herself, but if she doesn't have my full attention at all times she gets super upset and really acts out. Sorry to run on, but the point is, what more can I offer or change? I'm willing to do anything-- the years fly by so fast and I'd like her to have a happy childhood but it feels like time is running out. Any suggestions would be considered and appreciated. Thanks!
>
JRossedd
> Think about it this way - if you're wet and it's uncomfortable andyou can only get 3/4 of the way dry, you're still wet and uncomfortable.
Similarly, if you need eight hours of sleep and get six, you'll still be
tired - and if you get six on a regular basis you'll be overtired and
cranky on a regular basis. That's how it feels to get not-quite-enough
attention.
>There is cognitive psychology to back this up, btw, which I'm happy to
> Lavish her with your time and care.
lavish on anyone with an outsized "need" for reassurance to help move
past her doubts and worries. ;-)
Maslow's Needs Hierarchy of human needs (or Ladder of Needs) is perhaps
the most famous. Picture basic physical survival needs like water,food,
sleep, breathing on the bottom rung so that you can't skip over it
easily to care about satisfying higher needs (social interaction,
curiosity, understanding the world) until you feel physically satisfied
and reasonably confident that you can turn attention upward to other
needs. This will take whatever it takes and however long it takes,
differing by person. And it's a two-way ladder, not straight up. You
have to keep stepping back down to the lowest rung where a critical need
recurs.
I'm thinking what the bottom rung feels like for a child with asthma,
for example. (Or the day my 13-month-old almost drowned -- nothing else
mattered that day or for a long time after that, to us, except that he
keep breathing.)
So traditional parenting and schooling and churching manipulates how
kids climb their own needs ladder, on purpose and thinking it's for
their own good -- we set up competitions from birth (first steps
literally, potty training, bedtime s, eating vegetables) and standardize
all sorts of little tricks for them to perform on schedule and for us to
"judge" and score, demanding that even "late climbers" learn to hop
around on the rungs to impress adults, pass tests, get into presitigious
programs . . .
And that's counterproductive, because in Maslow's theory, a need left
only party fulfilled creates and imprints the individual with anxiety
surrounding that need. This is Maslow's definition of "neurosis" --
fixating on an unmet need -- and the the problem is that filling such a
need later will be pretty much impossible, once the ladder-climber has
learned from experience to fear rather than feel confident about
satisfying that need.
From http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/maslow.html --
"If you have significant problems along your development -- a period of
extreme insecurity or hunger as a child, or the loss of a family member
through death or divorce, or significant neglect or abuse -- you may
“fixate” on that set of needs for the rest of your life."
[email protected]
In our house my middle child (11 yrs today actually) is the angry child and I understand that he need more time but it is so difficult with my other two children 12yrs and 7 yrs. In fact there is anger and resentment from the 11yr old towards the 7 year old. It feels like I am in the middle at times. M y husband works long hours so If I wanted to take the 11 year old out then the 7 yr old would be wishing to join and then it turns into a fight and she (7 yr old) feels hurt. The competition between the 11 and 7 yr old has become an issue. Any suggestions?
Andrea
Andrea
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lauren McLaughlin" <lmclaughlin@...>
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 1:35:02 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Happy?
Thanks for your wonderful post, Meredith. I too have a 7 year old daughter who is angry alot. I have 2 other kids and sometimes find myself resisting her demands for more attention because it does feel overwhelming. For me this post seems like a way to let go of the resentment I sometimes feel towards her because of her big need and instead relax into the moment and try to be really present with her.
It reminds me of when my children were babies and were breastfeeding. I nursed on demand and sometimes had to just stop everything, sit down and nurse one of my little ones for as long as necessary. Those are precious memories now and if I can work on giving her attention in that same way, I am certain we would have more peace in our home!!
Lauren
> --- In [email protected] , "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
> > Lavish her with your time and care. If she likes your company, do nearly everything with her. If she likes to talk, talk to her for hours on end. It sounds like a lot, but I can tell you from personal experience that it *isn't* more work to meet a big need proactively - its not more work than dealing with all those meltdowns and quarrels that come from the need not getting met! If anything, once you get used to it its so much less stressful to meet that big need proactively that it Feels like less work. You get some of your energy back in the reduction of strife in your family.
> >
> > ---Meredith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
Hunger is often part of unhappiness for small kids. Allergies even can
cause discomfort--not hives, or life-threatening. I have a friend who says
"peppers" disagree with her. It isnt an allergy-but when she eats them she
bloats up and feels an "upset" tummy.
Ask your daughter how she feels. Look at what she ate, how she slept, and
even what she is wearing. Some kids hate labels, certain textures, or the
feel of certain seams.
Meet her where she, but maybe try to avoid cheering her up. Just offer
love.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cause discomfort--not hives, or life-threatening. I have a friend who says
"peppers" disagree with her. It isnt an allergy-but when she eats them she
bloats up and feels an "upset" tummy.
Ask your daughter how she feels. Look at what she ate, how she slept, and
even what she is wearing. Some kids hate labels, certain textures, or the
feel of certain seams.
Meet her where she, but maybe try to avoid cheering her up. Just offer
love.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
strange_translation
Well, it seems to be just a big general discontent with life in general. And as I mentioned, it's not a new thing. (And I don't mean it to sound as if the anger is a problem for us, the parents. It's just how she expresses sadness, and that's okay.) For example, she often turns down new things or experiences because (she says) she knows they won't measure up to her imagination. She used to believe that if she thought about things hard enough, they would manifest (we would spend hours driving around, per her directions, to find the toy store that was taller than the sky). She even had an imaginary mother who was blond and fashionable. ;-) I'm not sure if I'm explaining this well: I know everyone wants what they can't have and longs for ideal things, but she seems to take it so hard. And many days that seems to spill over and color every activity.
--- In [email protected], "marbleface@..." <marbleface@...> wrote:
>
> What is it exactly that she is getting "angry and unhappy" about?
>
> Does she say she is unhappy?
>
> Trying to picture whether it is a moodiness or frustration at doing something difficult or what?
>
> Nance
>
>
>
Schuyler
>>She used to believe that if she thought about things hard enough, they wouldDid you or do you believe that if she thought hard enough about something it
>>manifest (we would spend hours driving around, per her directions, to find the
>>toy store that was taller than the sky).<<
would happen? Did you support her in a believing that a giant toy store, taller
than the sky (which is mighty tall) would suddenly come into being if she wished
for it? That could lead to lots of frustrations. Make believe is a cool thing to
play around with, being a cat for days, imagining what it would be like to have
different parents, picturing yourself as a baby swapped at birth, for example.
But what was your goal when you would drive around, following her directions,
looking for a toy store you couldn't believe existed? Did you believe that she
was so powerful that she could create a toy store that reached into outer space?
If so, your world view is radically different than mine.
I was thinking of how I would have handled it if Simon or Linnaea had come to me
with a toy store taller than the sky in mind. I would have talked about how you
would have to use oxygen on the higher floors and giggled with them picturing
toy store shopping astronauts. Or about how big the base of it would have to be
to support such a giant structure. And talked about how much the wind can move a
building that's as tall as the twin towers were, no less above the sky. There is
a dvd I watched recently about Philippe Petit's high-wire crossing of the space
between the two towers and how in training for it his friends would swing and
hang from the wires of his much lower wire set to see if he could withstand the
wind. I would have played with the idea with them, but I wouldn't have supported
it as a possible fact.
>>For example, she often turns down new things or experiences because (she says)If that is really why she doesn't want to do something, and she isn't looking
>>she knows they won't measure up to her imagination.<<
for an excuse not to do stuff, can you do stuff that is not planned? Does she
like surprises? Or will they also be a let down? How does she do with her
birthday? Or holiday gifts? Maybe you can talk with her about enjoying what is,
sitting outside in the sun and just enjoying the sounds and the feel of
something. Today was so windy, so very, very windy, like riding in a convertible
with the top down windy. My hair got so fabulously tangled. I couldn't have
imagined the way it felt with the warm air being moderated by cooler undertones.
Or how exciting it was to run from cows. Details would escape me.
But if she doesn't want to go somewhere or do something, don't go. Find cool
things to do at home. Help her to find things to enjoy where she is. Feed her
often. 7 is beginning to have physiological changes as she gets ready for
menstruation. Changing hormones. Linnaea had a much shorter fuse when she was 7.
She got upset pretty often. The best response I had was to give her attention
and love and food and attention and love and food and cuddles and hanging out
together and holding her when she was upset and loving her and feeding her. It
still is the best response.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lovejoy
Just another reason I hate that damned "Law of Attraction" and "manifesting" shit. There is NO law.
Getting to the point where I can't even stand the word "manifest."
GENERALLY, if we treat others kindly, they, in turn, will be kind to us.
If we are patient with others, they are patient with us. Or at least relieved. <g>
If we are generous with our love, our money, and our time, others will be generous with us.
Etc.
Not everyone. Not every time. But mostly.
Wishing with all our might for a red Ferrari doesn't mean we'll get one, no matter how hard we manifest it. We can talk about it, maybe visit a showroom and ask to sit behind the wheel. Draw one. Add fun, funky features. Imagine where we'd travel in such style. Maybe even start saving for one.
Simply wishing (or UGH..."manifesting")---no matter how hard---won't make us Ferrari owners.
The reality is: some things are very expensive. Some things simply AREN'T---like a store taller than the sky.
I'm not sure how seriously you play along with her fantasies: it seems very seriously. I think that, especially if my child believed things so much more deeply than most kids, I'd try to be a little more realistic than fantastic when interacting with her. She might need a heavier dose of reality than most kids. Maybe.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Getting to the point where I can't even stand the word "manifest."
GENERALLY, if we treat others kindly, they, in turn, will be kind to us.
If we are patient with others, they are patient with us. Or at least relieved. <g>
If we are generous with our love, our money, and our time, others will be generous with us.
Etc.
Not everyone. Not every time. But mostly.
Wishing with all our might for a red Ferrari doesn't mean we'll get one, no matter how hard we manifest it. We can talk about it, maybe visit a showroom and ask to sit behind the wheel. Draw one. Add fun, funky features. Imagine where we'd travel in such style. Maybe even start saving for one.
Simply wishing (or UGH..."manifesting")---no matter how hard---won't make us Ferrari owners.
The reality is: some things are very expensive. Some things simply AREN'T---like a store taller than the sky.
I'm not sure how seriously you play along with her fantasies: it seems very seriously. I think that, especially if my child believed things so much more deeply than most kids, I'd try to be a little more realistic than fantastic when interacting with her. She might need a heavier dose of reality than most kids. Maybe.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
>>She used to believe that if she thought about things hard enough, they wouldthe toy store that was taller than the sky).<<
>>manifest (we would spend hours driving around, per her directions, to find
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
strange_translation
That was a lovely post. Thank you. No, she's aware of the scientific limitations to her imaginings, which makes it all the more poignant to me.
--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> >>She used to believe that if she thought about things hard enough, they would
> >>manifest (we would spend hours driving around, per her directions, to find the
> >>toy store that was taller than the sky).<<
>
> Did you or do you believe that if she thought hard enough about something it
> would happen? Did you support her in a believing that a giant toy store, taller
> than the sky (which is mighty tall) would suddenly come into being if she wished
> for it?
> If so, your world view is radically different than mine.
>
>
>
>
> Schuyler
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
strange_translation
Thank you for your advice. I'm not crazy about the whole Law of Attraction thing either; simply a bad choice of words on my part.
--- In [email protected], Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
>
> Just another reason I hate that damned "Law of Attraction" and "manifesting" shit. There is NO law.
>
>
> I'm not sure how seriously you play along with her fantasies: it seems very seriously. I think that, especially if my child believed things so much more deeply than most kids, I'd try to be a little more realistic than fantastic when interacting with her. She might need a heavier dose of reality than most kids. Maybe.
>
>
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
Schuyler
>>No, she's aware of the scientific limitations to her imaginings, which makes itShe was younger than she is now. How aware are you thinking she was?
>>all the more poignant to me.<<
Last night I thought about this sentence in the post I replied to: "I know
everyone wants what they can't have and longs for ideal things" and I thought
about how much that doesn't play out in our day to day. Simon and Linnaea and
David and I all seem fairly happy with what is. When there is something that we
want we work to make it happen. As long as it is within the realm of the
possible. When it isn't in the realm of the possible, imagining it is usually
enough, and it often turns comically dark. For example we were talking about a
toy store that reached the sky and where I had astronauts, Linnaea had
asphyxiated children, laughter ensued. And usually once begun down a path of
imagining it goes to unexpected places, little conversational meanderings. If it
is in the realm of the possible, but due to finances or time may mean a delay
between desire and action, there is a joy in anticipation, mostly. Sometimes the
waiting is harder than others, sometimes waiting makes it something that is no
longer desired.
I am often overwhelmed by Simon's and/or Linnaea's lack of neediness. I can
remember being offered to buy something, anything and almost never turning the
offer down. I still feel that way, a bit, from time to time. Looking for
something more in a gift then the item itself, maybe. As a teenager I was
hopeful that the things advertised in Seventeen Magazine would make me beautful,
would make me better, would make me more than I already was. I've never seen
Simon or Linnaea experience the world that way. Both of them wanted more when
they were younger than they do now. Although what they get now costs more per
item, typically, what they wanted then was quantity. Linnaea wanted stuffed
animals, Simon wanted pokemon figures and action figures and pokemon games and
pokemon electronics. But now, mostly, they want little and if I offer them
something they will turn it down. They have no sense, as far as I can tell, that
a purchase could improve who they are. Simon is interested in the idea of
playing an upright bass at the moment. He and his dad are almost done with
building a bottle bass guitar. My mom offered to buy him an upright bass and he
turned her down. He said he didn't know that he was interested in it enough and
that he wanted to play with the bottle bass and see if he enjoyed that. I can't
even imagine being 14 and turning down such an offer. Simon did it kindly and
easily. Mom made sure he knew that he could change his mind. It was a generous
and measured moment on both their parts.
Wanting something to be ideal is a different thing to wanting something you
can't have. Is your daughter becoming jaded? I think it is absolutely possible
to move from a phase of feeling that nothing can be truly as good as you hope it
will be to a phase where things are wonderous as they are. It just takes time
and support and experience. Looking for pleasure in small moments makes a big
difference to how my life is, to how each of our lives are. Yesterday Linnaea
spent some small part of her day fascinated by a spider. Simon enjoyed the
cruelty of his cat's claws. It wasn't a looking forward to or a loss through
achievement. Although that can be a part of the disappointment. Sometimes the
excitement of something is mostly in the looking forward to it, the
anticipation. And when you achieve it, when you have the thing that you were so
excited about, it is not nearly as much, not nearly as fulfilling as it might
have been. That's a hard thing to learn. Some folks don't ever figure out the
balance or that sometimes anticipation is in itself a pleasure. At 7 your
daughter probably just needs commiseration and support and things to enjoy that
don't pale.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
Are there things in your home that you can set up that your 7 year old daughter
would like to do for a bit so that you can do something with your 11 year old?
Can you get someone to come over to play with your 7 year old so that you can
hang out more with your middle child? Can you hang out with all of them more?
Take them out to places where the engagement in the activity, the environment
spreads the load so that you have to carry less of the burden of being the
entertainment? Can you find special ways and special moments to connect with
your 11 year old? Sometimes a touch or a hug or a kiss on the head can be an
acknowledgement that goes some way to filling the gap.
It's hard to juggle the needs of many people, but if you make the effort and are
seen to be actively working to help each of them with what they want help with
they will be more generous when you are unable to do all that they need you to.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: "acnachsin@..." <acnachsin@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 12 September, 2011 12:29:29
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Happy?
In our house my middle child (11 yrs today actually) is the angry child and I
understand that he need more time but it is so difficult with my other two
children 12yrs and 7 yrs. In fact there is anger and resentment from the 11yr
old towards the 7 year old. It feels like I am in the middle at times. M y
husband works long hours so If I wanted to take the 11 year old out then the 7
yr old would be wishing to join and then it turns into a fight and she (7 yr
old) feels hurt. The competition between the 11 and 7 yr old has become an
issue. Any suggestions?
Andrea
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
would like to do for a bit so that you can do something with your 11 year old?
Can you get someone to come over to play with your 7 year old so that you can
hang out more with your middle child? Can you hang out with all of them more?
Take them out to places where the engagement in the activity, the environment
spreads the load so that you have to carry less of the burden of being the
entertainment? Can you find special ways and special moments to connect with
your 11 year old? Sometimes a touch or a hug or a kiss on the head can be an
acknowledgement that goes some way to filling the gap.
It's hard to juggle the needs of many people, but if you make the effort and are
seen to be actively working to help each of them with what they want help with
they will be more generous when you are unable to do all that they need you to.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: "acnachsin@..." <acnachsin@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 12 September, 2011 12:29:29
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Happy?
In our house my middle child (11 yrs today actually) is the angry child and I
understand that he need more time but it is so difficult with my other two
children 12yrs and 7 yrs. In fact there is anger and resentment from the 11yr
old towards the 7 year old. It feels like I am in the middle at times. M y
husband works long hours so If I wanted to take the 11 year old out then the 7
yr old would be wishing to join and then it turns into a fight and she (7 yr
old) feels hurt. The competition between the 11 and 7 yr old has become an
issue. Any suggestions?
Andrea
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Woodman
On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 4:26 PM, Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
is because of some fault on your part. You did it wrong. It is not going
to result in a more peaceful more joyful life.
Sylvia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> **What I especially object to is that if whatever it is doesn't "Manifest" it
>
>
> Just another reason I hate that damned "Law of Attraction" and
> "manifesting" shit. There is NO law.
>
> Getting to the point where I can't even stand the word "manifest."
>
> GENERALLY, if we treat others kindly, they, in turn, will be kind to us.
>
> If we are patient with others, they are patient with us. Or at least
> relieved. <g>
>
> If we are generous with our love, our money, and our time, others will be
> generous with us.
>
is because of some fault on your part. You did it wrong. It is not going
to result in a more peaceful more joyful life.
Sylvia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
JJ
>if you make the effort and areThere's research to back this up too, btw. It's called the Hawthorne Effect, if I recall my grad studies back in the 80s. In management studies with adults at work, the very act of trying to make things better for employees who spent all day in the office was what worked. It didn't matter if it were green plants, different lighting or paint color on the walls etc. Anything made a positive difference because showing the intent and effort was the key to improving morale.
> seen to be actively working to help each of them with what they want help with
Joyce Fetteroll
> In fact there is anger and resentment from the 11yrSome ages are like that. But also if the 11 yo is needful of more
> old towards the 7 year old.
attention, when he was 4 an interloper came in and supplanted him as
the cherished baby. And he was suddenly expected to be less needful of
Mommy, expected to be more independent.
Have you read Siblings Without Rivalry? There may be things you're
doing that increase the feeling the 11 yo needs to compete with the 7
yo to get his needs met, to get as much of the limited resource (you)
as he needs. Your reactions may make the 11 yo feel like the bad guy
and the 7 yo the wronged one.
It *will* take creativity! It *will* take thinking outside the box. If
you want to give your kids the gift of believing "No problem important
to me isn't worth tackling" you need to treat their problems that way.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Well, her response to fantasies turning out not to be real and to real life not living up to the childhood hype is not completely unrealistic. Take Santa Claus, for instance.
And she's a girl. Girls are expected to be chirpy and happy and giggly and silly. All the friggin' time!
Now, my just-5-year-old Dear Nephew has had to remind me, and especially DH (his Uncle), about reality a few times. We will be playing something -- usually involving dismantling one of his toys or an old piece of electronic something -- and using the parts to build something else. But at some point the "car wash" is not really a working car wash. And he has grasped that idea -- that there is pretend and there is real. (And the closer we can get to blurring that line -- like incorporating real water in a car wash -- whoopee! the better the thing is!) But he has to remind his elders that sometimes it is just pretend. He gets kind of stern with us about it.
And the whole time he's working on a project, he may not appear to be happy. Not in the laugh-out-loud or even smiling way. He is concentrating and struggling and working hard! All very fulfilling but not, on the surface, giddy happiness.
OTOH, there my now-18-year-old, almost always unschooled DS. He has almost always been a bit of a cynic. He is extremely smart. One of our favorite conversations, at about your daughter's age, was dismantling TV commercials -- noticing how untrue they were, how the picture did not match the product once we got it home, etc.
And he is not one to play along, unless he wants to (which usually means there's a girl somewhere in the picture), with all the social outings and family gatherings and other smile fests he might be asked to attend. So he just doesn't go if he doesn't want to. If he's in the mood, he's charming. But if an occasion leaves him cold, he doesn't go and smile through it.
I wonder if he is happy sometimes -- I'm his Mom, it's OK if I worry about him :) -- but then I talk to him. Have an actual conversation. And he isn't unhappy. He has just been studying something or learning something new or playing or busy. And he'll usually tell me about it and it's clear he is a happy guy! But if you just looked at him, sitting there seriously reading something online, maybe you wouldn't know that. And I don't think he really cares if you know it. That's the thing. He's not trying to perform for me or anyone else and look happy. He's just being himself and that doesn't mean being silly. (Unless he is being silly -- he and his sister get going sometimes. . . :) )
I don't know if I'm saying it right. But happy doesn't look like the ads on TV showing Christmas morning with puppy dogs and rainbows. Sometimes it's OK not to be so happy. And sometimes happy just doesn't show.
I think your daughter sounds like a very bright young lady who is figuring out that the real world isn't as sparkly as she imagined. Tough for her to realize and tough for you to see her realize. But, really, the world isn't always all that sparkly. It can be great but it doesn't have to include Santa Claus long after we stop believing, just to make the grownups comfortable. Grandparents seem to take this change hard sometimes.
Nance
And she's a girl. Girls are expected to be chirpy and happy and giggly and silly. All the friggin' time!
Now, my just-5-year-old Dear Nephew has had to remind me, and especially DH (his Uncle), about reality a few times. We will be playing something -- usually involving dismantling one of his toys or an old piece of electronic something -- and using the parts to build something else. But at some point the "car wash" is not really a working car wash. And he has grasped that idea -- that there is pretend and there is real. (And the closer we can get to blurring that line -- like incorporating real water in a car wash -- whoopee! the better the thing is!) But he has to remind his elders that sometimes it is just pretend. He gets kind of stern with us about it.
And the whole time he's working on a project, he may not appear to be happy. Not in the laugh-out-loud or even smiling way. He is concentrating and struggling and working hard! All very fulfilling but not, on the surface, giddy happiness.
OTOH, there my now-18-year-old, almost always unschooled DS. He has almost always been a bit of a cynic. He is extremely smart. One of our favorite conversations, at about your daughter's age, was dismantling TV commercials -- noticing how untrue they were, how the picture did not match the product once we got it home, etc.
And he is not one to play along, unless he wants to (which usually means there's a girl somewhere in the picture), with all the social outings and family gatherings and other smile fests he might be asked to attend. So he just doesn't go if he doesn't want to. If he's in the mood, he's charming. But if an occasion leaves him cold, he doesn't go and smile through it.
I wonder if he is happy sometimes -- I'm his Mom, it's OK if I worry about him :) -- but then I talk to him. Have an actual conversation. And he isn't unhappy. He has just been studying something or learning something new or playing or busy. And he'll usually tell me about it and it's clear he is a happy guy! But if you just looked at him, sitting there seriously reading something online, maybe you wouldn't know that. And I don't think he really cares if you know it. That's the thing. He's not trying to perform for me or anyone else and look happy. He's just being himself and that doesn't mean being silly. (Unless he is being silly -- he and his sister get going sometimes. . . :) )
I don't know if I'm saying it right. But happy doesn't look like the ads on TV showing Christmas morning with puppy dogs and rainbows. Sometimes it's OK not to be so happy. And sometimes happy just doesn't show.
I think your daughter sounds like a very bright young lady who is figuring out that the real world isn't as sparkly as she imagined. Tough for her to realize and tough for you to see her realize. But, really, the world isn't always all that sparkly. It can be great but it doesn't have to include Santa Claus long after we stop believing, just to make the grownups comfortable. Grandparents seem to take this change hard sometimes.
Nance
--- In [email protected], "strange_translation" <senlin_says@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Well, it seems to be just a big general discontent with life in general. And as I mentioned, it's not a new thing. (And I don't mean it to sound as if the anger is a problem for us, the parents. It's just how she expresses sadness, and that's okay.) For example, she often turns down new things or experiences because (she says) she knows they won't measure up to her imagination. She used to believe that if she thought about things hard enough, they would manifest (we would spend hours driving around, per her directions, to find the toy store that was taller than the sky). She even had an imaginary mother who was blond and fashionable. ;-) I'm not sure if I'm explaining this well: I know everyone wants what they can't have and longs for ideal things, but she seems to take it so hard. And many days that seems to spill over and color every activity.
>
> --- In [email protected], "marbleface@" <marbleface@> wrote:
> >
> > What is it exactly that she is getting "angry and unhappy" about?
> >
> > Does she say she is unhappy?
> >
> > Trying to picture whether it is a moodiness or frustration at doing something difficult or what?
> >
> > Nance
> >
> >
> >
>
[email protected]
Hi! I have that book on my shelf and I will take it out pronto and read it. Their conflict is seriously wearing our family down and I will do anything to fix and if we are using wrong words then I am open to change. Andrea
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joyce Fetteroll" <jfetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 11:04:19 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Happy?
> In fact there is anger and resentment from the 11yr
> old towards the 7 year old.
Some ages are like that. But also if the 11 yo is needful of more
attention, when he was 4 an interloper came in and supplanted him as
the cherished baby. And he was suddenly expected to be less needful of
Mommy, expected to be more independent.
Have you read Siblings Without Rivalry? There may be things you're
doing that increase the feeling the 11 yo needs to compete with the 7
yo to get his needs met, to get as much of the limited resource (you)
as he needs. Your reactions may make the 11 yo feel like the bad guy
and the 7 yo the wronged one.
It *will* take creativity! It *will* take thinking outside the box. If
you want to give your kids the gift of believing "No problem important
to me isn't worth tackling" you need to treat their problems that way.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
strange_translation
I love this post-- thank you. I especially needed to hear this: "Sometimes it's OK not to be so happy. And sometimes happy just doesn't show."
--- In [email protected], "marbleface@..." <marbleface@...> wrote:
>
> Well, her response to fantasies turning out not to be real and to real life not living up to the childhood hype is not completely unrealistic. Take Santa Claus, for instance.
>
> And she's a girl. Girls are expected to be chirpy and happy and giggly and silly. All the friggin' time!
>
> Now, my just-5-year-old Dear Nephew has had to remind me, and especially DH (his Uncle), about reality a few times. We will be playing something -- usually involving dismantling one of his toys or an old piece of electronic something -- and using the parts to build something else. But at some point the "car wash" is not really a working car wash. And he has grasped that idea -- that there is pretend and there is real. (And the closer we can get to blurring that line -- like incorporating real water in a car wash -- whoopee! the better the thing is!) But he has to remind his elders that sometimes it is just pretend. He gets kind of stern with us about it.
>
> And the whole time he's working on a project, he may not appear to be happy. Not in the laugh-out-loud or even smiling way. He is concentrating and struggling and working hard! All very fulfilling but not, on the surface, giddy happiness.
>
> OTOH, there my now-18-year-old, almost always unschooled DS. He has almost always been a bit of a cynic. He is extremely smart. One of our favorite conversations, at about your daughter's age, was dismantling TV commercials -- noticing how untrue they were, how the picture did not match the product once we got it home, etc.
>
> And he is not one to play along, unless he wants to (which usually means there's a girl somewhere in the picture), with all the social outings and family gatherings and other smile fests he might be asked to attend. So he just doesn't go if he doesn't want to. If he's in the mood, he's charming. But if an occasion leaves him cold, he doesn't go and smile through it.
>
> I wonder if he is happy sometimes -- I'm his Mom, it's OK if I worry about him :) -- but then I talk to him. Have an actual conversation. And he isn't unhappy. He has just been studying something or learning something new or playing or busy. And he'll usually tell me about it and it's clear he is a happy guy! But if you just looked at him, sitting there seriously reading something online, maybe you wouldn't know that. And I don't think he really cares if you know it. That's the thing. He's not trying to perform for me or anyone else and look happy. He's just being himself and that doesn't mean being silly. (Unless he is being silly -- he and his sister get going sometimes. . . :) )
>
> I don't know if I'm saying it right. But happy doesn't look like the ads on TV showing Christmas morning with puppy dogs and rainbows. Sometimes it's OK not to be so happy. And sometimes happy just doesn't show.
>
> I think your daughter sounds like a very bright young lady who is figuring out that the real world isn't as sparkly as she imagined. Tough for her to realize and tough for you to see her realize. But, really, the world isn't always all that sparkly. It can be great but it doesn't have to include Santa Claus long after we stop believing, just to make the grownups comfortable. Grandparents seem to take this change hard sometimes.
>
> Nance
> > >
> > >
> >
>