When they must stop unschooling...
we_r_unners
We started as unschoolers...continued for a long while that way. Then we did some school at home stuff. Just workbooks to expose them to different math and sciences. All the while I worked full time, single mom.
Now that they are teens I no longer see the desire to learn anything other than computer games and such. They used to experiment with all sorts of things. One has shown and interest in becoming a pilot. So that gives me some hope. If they would pick at least ONE subject to pursue I'd feel much better about letting things slide along as they are. But I can't make much of a portfolio from computer games and flying lessons.
We recently lost our favored portfolio evaluator and luckily found a new one that helped "pass" them from middle school to high school. And since I am not able to "produce" enough "school" to satisfy 99.9% of the evaluators, I bought a curriculum. They can work at their own pace and know that they can go as fast as they want...and get it done and over with...and we will have something to show an evaluator. So I don't much care how they get it done as long as they go through and "do" it. I help every time they ask. I even highlight their text for them. I stop short of actually doing it for them. So MY schooled brain would tell the student ME to work work work work and get it all done as soon as possible. But they see it as boring and something they don't WANT to do. They fight me on it. It's frustrating for me when I see that all they have to do is read the text and answer some questions. You'd think it was hours and hours of hard work. Most lessons take them 20 minutes. They know that this is what we need to to do to keep homeschooling with choices. I am left with threatening the other options, regular school or virtual school. My thought is that if they are reporting to someone other than me, some more serious consequence, they will "do" more because they no longer have a choice. I don't want it to be this way but I don't see an alternative.
They spend a few months at a time with their father and a few months with me. Sadly, this has allowed Dad's to be the fun place with tons of outdoor activities and employment. And I am the ogre MAKING them do school. So since we started this new "school" routine in May, they have been making slower progress than I planned. And then in July they went west to their father's house. A week after they got there their father was diagnosed with Leukemia and was hospitalized (sill is, but gets released this week). So I let it slide for a couple of weeks. And then I tried to get them back on track...hard to "make" them from thousands of miles away. After a few chat fights, I gave up. I told them that I would not bring it up again but they would be doing double the work when they got back home.
Has anyone been through a drastic change from unschooling to school-at-home? Or even school?
Now that they are teens I no longer see the desire to learn anything other than computer games and such. They used to experiment with all sorts of things. One has shown and interest in becoming a pilot. So that gives me some hope. If they would pick at least ONE subject to pursue I'd feel much better about letting things slide along as they are. But I can't make much of a portfolio from computer games and flying lessons.
We recently lost our favored portfolio evaluator and luckily found a new one that helped "pass" them from middle school to high school. And since I am not able to "produce" enough "school" to satisfy 99.9% of the evaluators, I bought a curriculum. They can work at their own pace and know that they can go as fast as they want...and get it done and over with...and we will have something to show an evaluator. So I don't much care how they get it done as long as they go through and "do" it. I help every time they ask. I even highlight their text for them. I stop short of actually doing it for them. So MY schooled brain would tell the student ME to work work work work and get it all done as soon as possible. But they see it as boring and something they don't WANT to do. They fight me on it. It's frustrating for me when I see that all they have to do is read the text and answer some questions. You'd think it was hours and hours of hard work. Most lessons take them 20 minutes. They know that this is what we need to to do to keep homeschooling with choices. I am left with threatening the other options, regular school or virtual school. My thought is that if they are reporting to someone other than me, some more serious consequence, they will "do" more because they no longer have a choice. I don't want it to be this way but I don't see an alternative.
They spend a few months at a time with their father and a few months with me. Sadly, this has allowed Dad's to be the fun place with tons of outdoor activities and employment. And I am the ogre MAKING them do school. So since we started this new "school" routine in May, they have been making slower progress than I planned. And then in July they went west to their father's house. A week after they got there their father was diagnosed with Leukemia and was hospitalized (sill is, but gets released this week). So I let it slide for a couple of weeks. And then I tried to get them back on track...hard to "make" them from thousands of miles away. After a few chat fights, I gave up. I told them that I would not bring it up again but they would be doing double the work when they got back home.
Has anyone been through a drastic change from unschooling to school-at-home? Or even school?
Kelly Lovejoy
You never made the essential paradigm shift to unschooling.
If you had, you wouldn't be worried.
This isn't a list to help parents make their kids do schoolwork.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
From: we_r_unners <we_r_unners@...>
We started as unschoolers...continued for a long while that way. Then we did
some school at home stuff. Just workbooks to expose them to different math and
sciences. All the while I worked full time, single mom.
Now that they are teens I no longer see the desire to learn anything other than
computer games and such. They used to experiment with all sorts of things. One
has shown and interest in becoming a pilot. So that gives me some hope. If they
would pick at least ONE subject to pursue I'd feel much better about letting
things slide along as they are. But I can't make much of a portfolio from
computer games and flying lessons.
We recently lost our favored portfolio evaluator and luckily found a new one
that helped "pass" them from middle school to high school. And since I am not
able to "produce" enough "school" to satisfy 99.9% of the evaluators, I bought a
curriculum. They can work at their own pace and know that they can go as fast as
they want...and get it done and over with...and we will have something to show
an evaluator. So I don't much care how they get it done as long as they go
through and "do" it. I help every time they ask. I even highlight their text for
them. I stop short of actually doing it for them. So MY schooled brain would
tell the student ME to work work work work and get it all done as soon as
possible. But they see it as boring and something they don't WANT to do. They
fight me on it. It's frustrating for me when I see that all they have to do is
read the text and answer some questions. You'd think it was hours and hours of
hard work. Most lessons take them 20 minutes. Th
ey know that this is what we need to to do to keep homeschooling with choices.
I am left with threatening the other options, regular school or virtual school.
My thought is that if they are reporting to someone other than me, some more
serious consequence, they will "do" more because they no longer have a choice. I
don't want it to be this way but I don't see an alternative.
They spend a few months at a time with their father and a few months with me.
Sadly, this has allowed Dad's to be the fun place with tons of outdoor
activities and employment. And I am the ogre MAKING them do school. So since we
started this new "school" routine in May, they have been making slower progress
than I planned. And then in July they went west to their father's house. A week
after they got there their father was diagnosed with Leukemia and was
hospitalized (sill is, but gets released this week). So I let it slide for a
couple of weeks. And then I tried to get them back on track...hard to "make"
them from thousands of miles away. After a few chat fights, I gave up. I told
them that I would not bring it up again but they would be doing double the work
when they got back home.
Has anyone been through a drastic change from unschooling to school-at-home? Or
even school?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If you had, you wouldn't be worried.
This isn't a list to help parents make their kids do schoolwork.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
From: we_r_unners <we_r_unners@...>
We started as unschoolers...continued for a long while that way. Then we did
some school at home stuff. Just workbooks to expose them to different math and
sciences. All the while I worked full time, single mom.
Now that they are teens I no longer see the desire to learn anything other than
computer games and such. They used to experiment with all sorts of things. One
has shown and interest in becoming a pilot. So that gives me some hope. If they
would pick at least ONE subject to pursue I'd feel much better about letting
things slide along as they are. But I can't make much of a portfolio from
computer games and flying lessons.
We recently lost our favored portfolio evaluator and luckily found a new one
that helped "pass" them from middle school to high school. And since I am not
able to "produce" enough "school" to satisfy 99.9% of the evaluators, I bought a
curriculum. They can work at their own pace and know that they can go as fast as
they want...and get it done and over with...and we will have something to show
an evaluator. So I don't much care how they get it done as long as they go
through and "do" it. I help every time they ask. I even highlight their text for
them. I stop short of actually doing it for them. So MY schooled brain would
tell the student ME to work work work work and get it all done as soon as
possible. But they see it as boring and something they don't WANT to do. They
fight me on it. It's frustrating for me when I see that all they have to do is
read the text and answer some questions. You'd think it was hours and hours of
hard work. Most lessons take them 20 minutes. Th
ey know that this is what we need to to do to keep homeschooling with choices.
I am left with threatening the other options, regular school or virtual school.
My thought is that if they are reporting to someone other than me, some more
serious consequence, they will "do" more because they no longer have a choice. I
don't want it to be this way but I don't see an alternative.
They spend a few months at a time with their father and a few months with me.
Sadly, this has allowed Dad's to be the fun place with tons of outdoor
activities and employment. And I am the ogre MAKING them do school. So since we
started this new "school" routine in May, they have been making slower progress
than I planned. And then in July they went west to their father's house. A week
after they got there their father was diagnosed with Leukemia and was
hospitalized (sill is, but gets released this week). So I let it slide for a
couple of weeks. And then I tried to get them back on track...hard to "make"
them from thousands of miles away. After a few chat fights, I gave up. I told
them that I would not bring it up again but they would be doing double the work
when they got back home.
Has anyone been through a drastic change from unschooling to school-at-home? Or
even school?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jill Finkenbine
I too have had problems being able to show an evaluator that my children are
making progress. I have a suggestion that might help and is extremely
enjoyable for both children and parents. Read "A Thomas Jefferson
Education." If you can find an evaluuator in your state that is familiar
with their method and show the classics your children have read, you'll be
fine.
Even if I am completely comfortable and confident with unschooling, I still
have to meet the requirements of my state and fend off children's services
when everyone starts worrying that my children will never learn anything.
This is part of unschooling and very much belongs on an unschooling list.
Jill
making progress. I have a suggestion that might help and is extremely
enjoyable for both children and parents. Read "A Thomas Jefferson
Education." If you can find an evaluuator in your state that is familiar
with their method and show the classics your children have read, you'll be
fine.
Even if I am completely comfortable and confident with unschooling, I still
have to meet the requirements of my state and fend off children's services
when everyone starts worrying that my children will never learn anything.
This is part of unschooling and very much belongs on an unschooling list.
Jill
On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 8:27 PM, we_r_unners <we_r_unners@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> We started as unschoolers...continued for a long while that way. Then we
> did some school at home stuff. Just workbooks to expose them to different
> math and sciences. All the while I worked full time, single mom.
>
> Now that they are teens I no longer see the desire to learn anything other
> than computer games and such. They used to experiment with all sorts of
> things. One has shown and interest in becoming a pilot. So that gives me
> some hope. If they would pick at least ONE subject to pursue I'd feel much
> better about letting things slide along as they are. But I can't make much
> of a portfolio from computer games and flying lessons.
>
> We recently lost our favored portfolio evaluator and luckily found a new
> one that helped "pass" them from middle school to high school. And since I
> am not able to "produce" enough "school" to satisfy 99.9% of the evaluators,
> I bought a curriculum. They can work at their own pace and know that they
> can go as fast as they want...and get it done and over with...and we will
> have something to show an evaluator. So I don't much care how they get it
> done as long as they go through and "do" it. I help every time they ask. I
> even highlight their text for them. I stop short of actually doing it for
> them. So MY schooled brain would tell the student ME to work work work work
> and get it all done as soon as possible. But they see it as boring and
> something they don't WANT to do. They fight me on it. It's frustrating for
> me when I see that all they have to do is read the text and answer some
> questions. You'd think it was hours and hours of hard work. Most lessons
> take them 20 minutes. They know that this is what we need to to do to keep
> homeschooling with choices. I am left with threatening the other options,
> regular school or virtual school. My thought is that if they are reporting
> to someone other than me, some more serious consequence, they will "do" more
> because they no longer have a choice. I don't want it to be this way but I
> don't see an alternative.
>
> They spend a few months at a time with their father and a few months with
> me. Sadly, this has allowed Dad's to be the fun place with tons of outdoor
> activities and employment. And I am the ogre MAKING them do school. So since
> we started this new "school" routine in May, they have been making slower
> progress than I planned. And then in July they went west to their father's
> house. A week after they got there their father was diagnosed with Leukemia
> and was hospitalized (sill is, but gets released this week). So I let it
> slide for a couple of weeks. And then I tried to get them back on
> track...hard to "make" them from thousands of miles away. After a few chat
> fights, I gave up. I told them that I would not bring it up again but they
> would be doing double the work when they got back home.
>
> Has anyone been through a drastic change from unschooling to
> school-at-home? Or even school?
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lesley Cross
But the OP wasn't really asking for help framing Unschooling for the evaluator- the assumption was that because the kids are "just" playing games they need to be made to do something "educational". Which is untrue.
To the original poster (sorry, can't find your post)- do you know what games your kids are playing? What are they about? Are they interacting with others online? You can't really say your kids are or aren't making progress if you're not either observing what they are doing or talking to them about it- and not lecturing, but having real conversations and openly listening to them, seeing the value they see in what they're doing, what holds their attention, what piques their interest.
I'm hearing a lot of judgment on your part that your children's activities aren't worthwhile if they aren't aimed at a career. That's a lot of pressure. They are likely to not share what interests them if you are judging their interests as "not good enough", and ultimately judging them the same way.
There are much better lists for getting advice about how to make kids do schoolwork, which is quite the opposite of the focus here. If you want to really unschool, not simply leave your kids to their own devices, you can get plenty of help here if you're willing to be challenged on your biases and do your work in shifting paradigms. Plus you can find resources for translating Unschooling into educationese for your evaluator.
Lesley
immerse.emerge.thrive
http://www.lesleyreidcross.wordpress.com
To the original poster (sorry, can't find your post)- do you know what games your kids are playing? What are they about? Are they interacting with others online? You can't really say your kids are or aren't making progress if you're not either observing what they are doing or talking to them about it- and not lecturing, but having real conversations and openly listening to them, seeing the value they see in what they're doing, what holds their attention, what piques their interest.
I'm hearing a lot of judgment on your part that your children's activities aren't worthwhile if they aren't aimed at a career. That's a lot of pressure. They are likely to not share what interests them if you are judging their interests as "not good enough", and ultimately judging them the same way.
There are much better lists for getting advice about how to make kids do schoolwork, which is quite the opposite of the focus here. If you want to really unschool, not simply leave your kids to their own devices, you can get plenty of help here if you're willing to be challenged on your biases and do your work in shifting paradigms. Plus you can find resources for translating Unschooling into educationese for your evaluator.
Lesley
immerse.emerge.thrive
http://www.lesleyreidcross.wordpress.com
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 6, 2011, at 8:27 PM, we_r_unners wrote:
more.
The teen years are social years. I'm guessing they're playing with
others, physically or on line? At any rate, they're learning through
something that they're passionate about.
is that it was easy for you to see the learning before, perhaps
resembled what others consider educational. Now it looks much different.
Do you play too? Have you delved into what the games are about so you
can talk about the games with them?
Life isn't divided into subjects. It's ideas all mixed up in their
wild state as life is. It's our natural inclination to pull an
understanding out of the chaos. It will rarely look like school.
Perhaps your kids have been drawn to interests that were easier to
categorize as school subjects. They made it easy for you! Too easy to
the point where you didn't ever grasp unschooling.
solution to your dilemma. And you've turned the problem into how to
make them comply with your a solution that they don't feel is worth
even 20 minutes of their time.
You're facing what everyone goes through whose ideas don't mesh with
someone else's. Your chosen solution is to impose your way on them and
make them do what you think is right.
Is that how you'd want them to tackle a conflict of needs with a
future spouse? With their kids? With their co-workers?
You have the opportunity to find creative ways to meet your needs
*and* their needs. You have the opportunity to involved them in the
process. Not impose your ideas on them! Look at what the state
requires. Don't look at your solution to those requirements. Look for
create ways to meet the requirements.
That's an approach to problem solving that will be invaluable
throughout their lives.
how to meet your state requirements. It isn't your kids responsibility
to do things to make it easier for you. You don't have to stop
unschooling. You're choosing not to dig deeper to find out how you can
unschool and create a portfolio.
If all it took to get kids to do what parents want is for parents to
believe they're "right" there wouldn't be a need for parenting books
or this list. In fact we wouldn't have wars if people would just
follow the people who knew they were "right".
homeschoolers shared the message boards, separated into folders. And I
read everything. This was a common complaint in all the folders.
Except the unschoolers. That's one of the reason's I chose
unschooling. ;-)
certain way for a portfolio (or whatever other options you have) is a
question best asked on a state unschooling list since each state has
different requirements. Try finding a list here:
http://sandradodd.com/world
Homeschooling A to Z
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/
Doing something other than unschooling but calling it unschooling
doesn't grant it the same benefits as unschooling. Unschooling isn't a
club. It's an approach to learning.
You can't have the benefits of a vegan diet and eat meat too by
calling what you're doing veganism ;-)
Joyce
> Now that they are teens I no longer see the desire to learn anythingWhile they're "learning computer games" they're also learning a ton
> other than computer games and such.
more.
The teen years are social years. I'm guessing they're playing with
others, physically or on line? At any rate, they're learning through
something that they're passionate about.
> They used to experiment with all sorts of things.They're still experimenting with all sorts of things. What's changed
is that it was easy for you to see the learning before, perhaps
resembled what others consider educational. Now it looks much different.
Do you play too? Have you delved into what the games are about so you
can talk about the games with them?
> If they would pick at least ONE subject to pursue I'd feel muchThey aren't sliding. They're pursuing things that interest them.
> better about letting things slide along as they are.
Life isn't divided into subjects. It's ideas all mixed up in their
wild state as life is. It's our natural inclination to pull an
understanding out of the chaos. It will rarely look like school.
Perhaps your kids have been drawn to interests that were easier to
categorize as school subjects. They made it easy for you! Too easy to
the point where you didn't ever grasp unschooling.
> They know that this is what we need to to do to keep homeschoolingNo, you don't need to do it. It's what you've settled on as the
> with choices.
solution to your dilemma. And you've turned the problem into how to
make them comply with your a solution that they don't feel is worth
even 20 minutes of their time.
> You'd think it was hours and hours of hard work. Most lessons takeIf it feels like that to them, your feelings don't change it.
> them 20 minutes.
You're facing what everyone goes through whose ideas don't mesh with
someone else's. Your chosen solution is to impose your way on them and
make them do what you think is right.
Is that how you'd want them to tackle a conflict of needs with a
future spouse? With their kids? With their co-workers?
You have the opportunity to find creative ways to meet your needs
*and* their needs. You have the opportunity to involved them in the
process. Not impose your ideas on them! Look at what the state
requires. Don't look at your solution to those requirements. Look for
create ways to meet the requirements.
That's an approach to problem solving that will be invaluable
throughout their lives.
> I am left with threatening the other options, regular school orIt's your choice to unschool them. That makes it yours to figure out
> virtual school. My thought is that if they are reporting to someone
> other than me, some more serious consequence, they will "do" more
> because they no longer have a choice. I don't want it to be this way
> but I don't see an alternative.
how to meet your state requirements. It isn't your kids responsibility
to do things to make it easier for you. You don't have to stop
unschooling. You're choosing not to dig deeper to find out how you can
unschool and create a portfolio.
If all it took to get kids to do what parents want is for parents to
believe they're "right" there wouldn't be a need for parenting books
or this list. In fact we wouldn't have wars if people would just
follow the people who knew they were "right".
> And I am the ogre MAKING them do school. So since we started thisWhen I first started reading about homeschooling, all the
> new "school" routine in May, they have been making slower progress
> than I planned.
homeschoolers shared the message boards, separated into folders. And I
read everything. This was a common complaint in all the folders.
Except the unschoolers. That's one of the reason's I chose
unschooling. ;-)
> But I can't make much of a portfolio from computer games and flyingThere are unschoolers in every state. How to make unschooling look a
> lessons.
certain way for a portfolio (or whatever other options you have) is a
question best asked on a state unschooling list since each state has
different requirements. Try finding a list here:
http://sandradodd.com/world
> I bought a curriculum. They can work at their own pace and know thatThat would be eclectic homeschooling. You can search for groups at:
> they can go as fast as they want...and get it done and over with
Homeschooling A to Z
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/
Doing something other than unschooling but calling it unschooling
doesn't grant it the same benefits as unschooling. Unschooling isn't a
club. It's an approach to learning.
You can't have the benefits of a vegan diet and eat meat too by
calling what you're doing veganism ;-)
Joyce
we_r_unners
Thank you to those posted helpful information. I will not defend our past, but we WERE indeed an unschooling family from birth to about 10 years. A change in our lives occurred along the way and we haven't been unschooling for at least four years now.
Unschooling, eclectic or school-at-home, does not change the fact that evaluators are trained teachers and many still see it as doing nothing when you don't produce enough evidence to satisfy them. There is not one evaluator on our state list that I feel is truly unschool friendly. Consider yourselves lucky that you have not had to experience a negative evaluation...yet. Or fortunate if you live in a state with an excellent umbrella school that leaves you alone. They are not everywhere. If you are not required to report to anyone, I hope it stays that way for you.
I first posted in this group a few months ago to try to find an evaluator since it is more likely that those that have an understanding of unschooling would provide an acceptable narrative from our homeschooling. Our previous evaluator was able to engage them enough to create a wonderful narrative of their learning and didn't need to see physical evidence. Our most recent evaluator was also wonderful but still has a lot of teacher-like tendencies. She did make many suggestions for curriculum and resources that would be helpful for our situation. I will stick with her. My search for an evaluator this year was traumatic. Imagine being told "your homeschooling program would not stand up if you were taken to court, I'm not saying that I'm going to report you but...". Or, "are your children learning disabled, they should be doing XYZ by now". That's just two of the wonderful teacher comments of this year. That caused a lot of tears for me and doubts that I could even keep homeschooling at all. It hurts just thinking of being put in that position by someone that claimed they understood unschooling. Again, I know we are not unschoolers now...but the lack of anything to show progress is still the issue. I can assist in the "production" by cramming it into that 2 hours after dinner and before bedtime. And obviously, that is NOT conducive to unschooling. So we do not unschool.
Thank you for pointing out that I am putting my needs ahead of theirs based on something that I CAN make easier for us all instead of just myself. While I don't see us ever returning to unschooling while of compulsory attendance age (18 here), I'll bet I can back off and be more relaxed about it and still have enough material to make a nice full narrative of their "educational progress commensurate with age"...as our state requires.
I am happy that my children have grown without going to school. They are wonderful young men. I need to step back and re-evaluate what I am doing TO them instead of FOR them. I thank you.
I sincerely hope that no one on this list finds themselves in a position similar to mine anytime soon. But I find it hopeful that there are some people on this list that are willing to help when there is any doubt in your ability to continue homeschooling...even if it isn't unschooling anymore.
Jennifer
Unschooling, eclectic or school-at-home, does not change the fact that evaluators are trained teachers and many still see it as doing nothing when you don't produce enough evidence to satisfy them. There is not one evaluator on our state list that I feel is truly unschool friendly. Consider yourselves lucky that you have not had to experience a negative evaluation...yet. Or fortunate if you live in a state with an excellent umbrella school that leaves you alone. They are not everywhere. If you are not required to report to anyone, I hope it stays that way for you.
I first posted in this group a few months ago to try to find an evaluator since it is more likely that those that have an understanding of unschooling would provide an acceptable narrative from our homeschooling. Our previous evaluator was able to engage them enough to create a wonderful narrative of their learning and didn't need to see physical evidence. Our most recent evaluator was also wonderful but still has a lot of teacher-like tendencies. She did make many suggestions for curriculum and resources that would be helpful for our situation. I will stick with her. My search for an evaluator this year was traumatic. Imagine being told "your homeschooling program would not stand up if you were taken to court, I'm not saying that I'm going to report you but...". Or, "are your children learning disabled, they should be doing XYZ by now". That's just two of the wonderful teacher comments of this year. That caused a lot of tears for me and doubts that I could even keep homeschooling at all. It hurts just thinking of being put in that position by someone that claimed they understood unschooling. Again, I know we are not unschoolers now...but the lack of anything to show progress is still the issue. I can assist in the "production" by cramming it into that 2 hours after dinner and before bedtime. And obviously, that is NOT conducive to unschooling. So we do not unschool.
Thank you for pointing out that I am putting my needs ahead of theirs based on something that I CAN make easier for us all instead of just myself. While I don't see us ever returning to unschooling while of compulsory attendance age (18 here), I'll bet I can back off and be more relaxed about it and still have enough material to make a nice full narrative of their "educational progress commensurate with age"...as our state requires.
I am happy that my children have grown without going to school. They are wonderful young men. I need to step back and re-evaluate what I am doing TO them instead of FOR them. I thank you.
I sincerely hope that no one on this list finds themselves in a position similar to mine anytime soon. But I find it hopeful that there are some people on this list that are willing to help when there is any doubt in your ability to continue homeschooling...even if it isn't unschooling anymore.
Jennifer
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 7, 2011, at 10:31 PM, we_r_unners wrote:
List members can do their best to help people figure out how to get
past problems so they *can* unschool. But members can't help people
figure out how to not unschool. It's not something unschoolers have
*successful* experience with -- or we wouldn't be unschooling!
If you feel your only choice is to make your kids do some school,
unschoolers are a really really bad resource for advice on how to get
kids to do school work. Eclectics have way more experience. Though
they will run the gamut on sensitivity, they have a lot more
experience taking their kids needs into consideration when choosing
curriculum. They'll have advice that you need to implement your
solution.
BUT, If you end up stuck with a schoolish evaluator, *and want an
unschooling approach*, I'd draw your kids into the process. Again,
look at the restrictions, not your assumptions and not your solutions
to the restrictions. Question the restrictions, the expectations. Dig
into the wording and together with your kids figure out what it's
really asking, not just what you believe it's asking. Turn the words
this way and that. Think outside the box. (Like moving! ;-) Don't feel
trapped by the restrictions. See them as obstacles that creative
solutions can get you around.
(I assume you've asked on your state unschooling list(s). This problem
must have happened before. Have you dug into the archives of the list
to see past solutions?)
If you involve your kids in the process of coming up with ideas,
they'll be *far* more willing to do far more than anything you could
insist they do. People will voluntarily put up with the harsh
conditions of a climb up Mt. Everest, even be willing to have their
toes fall off! because it's something they've chosen to do. But lock
people up and drop the temperature to 50 and you won't hear the end of
the complaints ;-)
Choice is *the* hugest factor in how much people will put up with. If
your kids find what they've come up isn't working for them, get
together, discuss what's not working and why, and come up with some
other things to try. And keep doing that. That's real life problem
solving :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Unschooling, eclectic or school-at-home, does not change the factI do feel for you! I do understand that you feel you can't unschool.
> that evaluators are trained teachers and many still see it as doing
> nothing when you don't produce enough evidence to satisfy them.
> There is not one evaluator on our state list that I feel is truly
> unschool friendly.
List members can do their best to help people figure out how to get
past problems so they *can* unschool. But members can't help people
figure out how to not unschool. It's not something unschoolers have
*successful* experience with -- or we wouldn't be unschooling!
If you feel your only choice is to make your kids do some school,
unschoolers are a really really bad resource for advice on how to get
kids to do school work. Eclectics have way more experience. Though
they will run the gamut on sensitivity, they have a lot more
experience taking their kids needs into consideration when choosing
curriculum. They'll have advice that you need to implement your
solution.
BUT, If you end up stuck with a schoolish evaluator, *and want an
unschooling approach*, I'd draw your kids into the process. Again,
look at the restrictions, not your assumptions and not your solutions
to the restrictions. Question the restrictions, the expectations. Dig
into the wording and together with your kids figure out what it's
really asking, not just what you believe it's asking. Turn the words
this way and that. Think outside the box. (Like moving! ;-) Don't feel
trapped by the restrictions. See them as obstacles that creative
solutions can get you around.
(I assume you've asked on your state unschooling list(s). This problem
must have happened before. Have you dug into the archives of the list
to see past solutions?)
If you involve your kids in the process of coming up with ideas,
they'll be *far* more willing to do far more than anything you could
insist they do. People will voluntarily put up with the harsh
conditions of a climb up Mt. Everest, even be willing to have their
toes fall off! because it's something they've chosen to do. But lock
people up and drop the temperature to 50 and you won't hear the end of
the complaints ;-)
Choice is *the* hugest factor in how much people will put up with. If
your kids find what they've come up isn't working for them, get
together, discuss what's not working and why, and come up with some
other things to try. And keep doing that. That's real life problem
solving :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
we_r_unners
Thank you for the suggestion. I did a quick search and it looks interesting. I'll do some more investigating and show the kids. Jennifer
--- In [email protected], Jill Finkenbine <peace.goodwill@...> wrote:
> Read "A Thomas Jefferson
> Education." If you can find an evaluuator in your state that is familiar
> with their method and show the classics your children have read, you'll be
> fine.
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 8, 2011, at 6:29 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
"Success" doesn't mean the same to everyone. Eclectics, curriculum
users, unit-studiers, unschoolers, radical unschoolers, all have
different goals and all have different definitions of what "success"
means to them.
An unschooler isn't just someone who couldn't get eclectic to "work"
for them ;-) An unschooler is someone who realizes other forms of
education don't work for the goals they have for their kids.
Every form of education has its pros and cons. Not every form will
work for all parental goals for kids. Only unschooling will work -- I
strongly believe -- for every kid, because it adapts to the child's
needs rather than depending on the adapting the child to it.
Unschooling does, of course, take an environment that allows it to
flourish (including legal environment -- it's impossible to do in
Germany no matter how skilled the parents are!) and parents who want
what unschooling offers, are willing to put up with the cons, and are
willing to put in the effort to create the environment.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But members can't help peopleThat didn't come out quite right!
> figure out how to not unschool. It's not something unschoolers have
> *successful* experience with -- or we wouldn't be unschooling!
"Success" doesn't mean the same to everyone. Eclectics, curriculum
users, unit-studiers, unschoolers, radical unschoolers, all have
different goals and all have different definitions of what "success"
means to them.
An unschooler isn't just someone who couldn't get eclectic to "work"
for them ;-) An unschooler is someone who realizes other forms of
education don't work for the goals they have for their kids.
Every form of education has its pros and cons. Not every form will
work for all parental goals for kids. Only unschooling will work -- I
strongly believe -- for every kid, because it adapts to the child's
needs rather than depending on the adapting the child to it.
Unschooling does, of course, take an environment that allows it to
flourish (including legal environment -- it's impossible to do in
Germany no matter how skilled the parents are!) and parents who want
what unschooling offers, are willing to put up with the cons, and are
willing to put in the effort to create the environment.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"we_r_unners" <we_r_unners@...> wrote:
I'm coming in late to this thread but wanted to point out that this is a good sign that parents don't really understand unschooling or how people learn. If you (general you) find the philosophy of unschooling appealing but aren't sure how kids learn specific things or have concerns in that regard, its better to ask before you get into school at home, since that will undermine future attempts at unschooling.
I'm also struck by the fact that mom went to workbooks as a go-to resource. That suggests, to me, that unschooling was being used as a lazy attempt at home education since workbooks are probably the least time-intensive (for parents) educational tool out there - and also the least useful tool period. Any kind of homeschooling takes a lot of parental engagement to be successful, and unschooling is no exception to that. If anything, it takes More engagement.
---Meredith
>******************
> We started as unschoolers...continued for a long while that way. Then we did some school at home stuff. Just workbooks to expose them to different math and sciences.
I'm coming in late to this thread but wanted to point out that this is a good sign that parents don't really understand unschooling or how people learn. If you (general you) find the philosophy of unschooling appealing but aren't sure how kids learn specific things or have concerns in that regard, its better to ask before you get into school at home, since that will undermine future attempts at unschooling.
I'm also struck by the fact that mom went to workbooks as a go-to resource. That suggests, to me, that unschooling was being used as a lazy attempt at home education since workbooks are probably the least time-intensive (for parents) educational tool out there - and also the least useful tool period. Any kind of homeschooling takes a lot of parental engagement to be successful, and unschooling is no exception to that. If anything, it takes More engagement.
>> All the while I worked full time, single mom.There are single moms who unschool, but its not possible for everyone, for sure. Unschooling takes some resources - not money necessarily, but time and attention and often outside support. Leaving kids to their own devices in hopes they'll self-educate isn't unschooling.
---Meredith
plaidpanties666
Jill Finkenbine <peace.goodwill@...> wrote:
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum.html
Look all over the page for links to additional tools.
The best way to deal with children's services (most places - again, check local resources) is to be very direct and positive. If you see them as the enemy, they'll wonder why! So treat them the way you would... a firefighter showing up when you were having a cookout. Oh, gee, did the neighbors call? I'm so sorry! As you can see, we have everything under control here - can you see any way this situation can be made more safe? Thank you for your time, I'm sorry for the inconvenience.
Sometimes folks living alternative lifestyles are overly frightened of children's services. It helps to remember they're people who care about kids and families and meet them on that level. They're often very kind, thoughtful people who are glad to meet a level-headed parent engaged in creating a rich, peaceful, supportive home for their kids. So if you're doing those things, you've nothing to worry about. I have a couple friends in social services and engaged, thoughtful (non-abusive, non-addicted) parents are like a breath of fresh air in their days.
---Meredith
>This is an international list, so not everyone here has the same hoops through which to jump. Specific questions about local issues are better asked on local lists. If you have a general question about framing unschooling in "educational" terms, then I'm sure folks here can suggest links and tools which might help. There are some samples here and tips collected here, though:
> I too have had problems being able to show an evaluator that my children are
> making progress.
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum.html
Look all over the page for links to additional tools.
>>If you can find an evaluuator in your state that is familiarAssuming your kids have read any "classics" ;) Those aren't really of interest to my kids. Happily, I'm able to use an umbrella school for all my reporting needs - that's a good strategy for anyone in an area which allows it as an option, but again, check local resources for specific details.
> with their method and show the classics your children have read, you'll be
> fine.
> Even if I am completely comfortable and confident with unschooling, I still****************
> have to meet the requirements of my state and fend off children's services
The best way to deal with children's services (most places - again, check local resources) is to be very direct and positive. If you see them as the enemy, they'll wonder why! So treat them the way you would... a firefighter showing up when you were having a cookout. Oh, gee, did the neighbors call? I'm so sorry! As you can see, we have everything under control here - can you see any way this situation can be made more safe? Thank you for your time, I'm sorry for the inconvenience.
Sometimes folks living alternative lifestyles are overly frightened of children's services. It helps to remember they're people who care about kids and families and meet them on that level. They're often very kind, thoughtful people who are glad to meet a level-headed parent engaged in creating a rich, peaceful, supportive home for their kids. So if you're doing those things, you've nothing to worry about. I have a couple friends in social services and engaged, thoughtful (non-abusive, non-addicted) parents are like a breath of fresh air in their days.
---Meredith
vickisue_gray
I can totally relate to your issues over dealing with an evaluator as I ran into that hurdle the first year of homeschooling BEFORE we learned about unschooling. We had a different issue but all in all, after that first evaluation, it was clear to me, I REALLY wanted another option.
Have you looked into your local area's options? In my state, we have the choice of a standardized test, transcripts if an online school or a college are used, an evaluation, or [my personal favorite] an umbrella school. We switched to the umbrella option and meeting state law has been pleasant ever since. =)
As for *making* older kids *do* school, give it up as you can't. Sure, you can rant, rave, threaten, punish, plead, beg,...etc, but once children reach a certain place in their growth, they are going to do what they are going to do. It can be any where from a peaceful journey to open warfare. Personally, I prefer the peaceful approach.
Have you and your kids heard about 'The Teenage Liberation Handbook'? It's a great resource and really helps empower teens to take charge of their life.
Also, which games are your kids into? I bet many of us could list all the things being learned in the different games. I know my son gained an incredible amount of history, math, logic, navigation, coding, problem solving, writing skills, communication skills, computer programming skills, typing, just to name a few off the top of my head. You might be amazed just how much learning actually occurs during all that *gaming* time.
Have you talked to your kids to see what else they might like to do beyond gaming? There's all sorts of other options out there. Are they gaming so much because that's pretty much the only choice besides workbooks? Or choosing gaming because they are involved in something that requires much time to accomplish? Are they interested in learning a skill? Like rebuilding a motorcycle? Or working on what will one day be their first car? Ask them where they wish to be in life. Where they wish to go in life. What they would like to experience. Then figure out the pathways and go for it.
Just a few thoughts. Hopefully of some help. =)
Vicki ~
Have you looked into your local area's options? In my state, we have the choice of a standardized test, transcripts if an online school or a college are used, an evaluation, or [my personal favorite] an umbrella school. We switched to the umbrella option and meeting state law has been pleasant ever since. =)
As for *making* older kids *do* school, give it up as you can't. Sure, you can rant, rave, threaten, punish, plead, beg,...etc, but once children reach a certain place in their growth, they are going to do what they are going to do. It can be any where from a peaceful journey to open warfare. Personally, I prefer the peaceful approach.
Have you and your kids heard about 'The Teenage Liberation Handbook'? It's a great resource and really helps empower teens to take charge of their life.
Also, which games are your kids into? I bet many of us could list all the things being learned in the different games. I know my son gained an incredible amount of history, math, logic, navigation, coding, problem solving, writing skills, communication skills, computer programming skills, typing, just to name a few off the top of my head. You might be amazed just how much learning actually occurs during all that *gaming* time.
Have you talked to your kids to see what else they might like to do beyond gaming? There's all sorts of other options out there. Are they gaming so much because that's pretty much the only choice besides workbooks? Or choosing gaming because they are involved in something that requires much time to accomplish? Are they interested in learning a skill? Like rebuilding a motorcycle? Or working on what will one day be their first car? Ask them where they wish to be in life. Where they wish to go in life. What they would like to experience. Then figure out the pathways and go for it.
Just a few thoughts. Hopefully of some help. =)
Vicki ~
vickisue_gray
>>>One has shown an interest in becoming a pilot.<<<Have you looked to see if you have any local glider clubs? My daughter and spouse learned to fly gliders this way. Also, Real Flight makes great simulators for learning to fly. I'd have to ask my spouse for the best sims so if anyone has an interest, let me know and I'll ask him. He's really big into anything that flies. Another interest that leads to tons of interesting learning and employment in a wide variety of jobs.
we_r_unners
So far he is just taking flying lessons in a Cessna 172. He's really happy when he gets to fly. The last instructor he flew with mentioned the glider club about an hour from us. So I am certain he'll be experiencing the no-motor flight, which I hear is different than flying than planes. It's funny how I was not the least bit nervous about it all when he first went up. But after so much time flying on ground, he wanted to feel the real thing and was completely confident he could do it. He's so at home in a plane. I hope he decides to continue. The grandparents joke that he'll be able to take us all to tropical islands.
He plays Fight Simulator a lot and complains of not enough space on the hard drive to download new planes. He has the plane-like controllers and spends hours flying on the computer. Luckily, they've included autopilot so he takes breaks now and then.
I'd love to hear about other flight simulator programs...even though he's a very savy shopper and has probably already discovered them and read their reviews.
If you find more programs please email me directly at beachboysnh at yahoo.com.
Thank you!
He plays Fight Simulator a lot and complains of not enough space on the hard drive to download new planes. He has the plane-like controllers and spends hours flying on the computer. Luckily, they've included autopilot so he takes breaks now and then.
I'd love to hear about other flight simulator programs...even though he's a very savy shopper and has probably already discovered them and read their reviews.
If you find more programs please email me directly at beachboysnh at yahoo.com.
Thank you!
--- In [email protected], "vickisue_gray" <vickisue_gray@...> wrote:
>
> >>>One has shown an interest in becoming a pilot.<<<
>
> Have you looked to see if you have any local glider clubs? My daughter and spouse learned to fly gliders this way. Also, Real Flight makes great simulators for learning to fly. I'd have to ask my spouse for the best sims so if anyone has an interest, let me know and I'll ask him. He's really big into anything that flies. Another interest that leads to tons of interesting learning and employment in a wide variety of jobs.
>