Janet Rissler

Unschooling is a foreign concept to me and I joined this group to see how it
is done.
If you could give a 10-step how-to, what would it be?
I have a large family, and find the idea of no schedule a bit daunting. I
see how it could work for a small family, but there needs to be some
direction to our day. I already hear way too much "I'm bored." And no, they
do NOT find their own thing to do. Actually, some of them do, some don't.
Out of 7 children, I have two that never get bored, two that are always
bored, two that are in between, and one that is a toddler; she isn't the
problem.
So tell me how to unschool a large family; children ages 2-15.
~Jan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

There are several basic "how to" essays linked here:
http://sandradodd.com/howto/

In some ways, there's only one "step" to unschooling and its to be more involved with your children in direct, personal ways. Get excited about their interests, take their thoughts and feeling seriously, interact with them the way you would with cherished friends, friends worth both standing up for and also giving a "word to the wise" now and then.

But don't jump off the deep end all at once. I suspect the "steps" you really want/need are how to ease in, and to a large extent that depends on where you are now. If you're homeschooling, declare a vacation from anything educational - a break. Then live like you're on vacation - a good vacation where you do fun, interesting things together for the joy of it (not for "educational purposes"). Do that for a year or two. That's step one, known as deschooling. During that year or two, read more about unschooling, think about it, try things out, see what happens.

> I have a large family, and find the idea of no schedule a bit daunting. I
> see how it could work for a small family, but there needs to be some
> direction to our day.

Some people do better with a routine, while others prefer to fly by the seat of their pants. There's nothing anti-unschooling about having a bit of a routine, but don't think of your children as a homogenous unit, either - notice which ones like some variability, some surprises and actively look for ways to offer those things.

If your kids are used to having direction, then its likely the don't know what to do without it yet. Regaining the ability to self-motivate is part of the deschooling process (see that link, above, there's a link to some articles on deschooling on that page). While kids are re-learning that skill, they often need time to do things that were limited by their previous schedules - things like watch a loooooot of tv or play a video games, or surf the web, or talk on the phone.

You can help some kids ease in to self-motivation by saying "yes" more to things you've restricted in the past - but know that some kids will figure this out and push for more. While its Generally better to ease in, some kids benefit more from diving in wholeheartedly, feasting on previously restricted fun for awhile, and then moving on.

>I already hear way too much "I'm bored." And no, they
> do NOT find their own thing to do.

As I said, unschooling is about being very involved with your children, not leave them to their own devices (unless they want that). Help them out. Help them discover if being bored really means they're lonely, or need something new, or need a direction, or actually need to sit and "be" for a little until the next wonderful idea comes along. "Bored" can mean all those things - sometimes more than one at a time! Kids in transitional stages of development are most likely to be bored on a regular basis - they've outgrown the old interests to some extent, and need help finding something new.

There's an article on boredom here:

http://sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore

and some ideas here:

http://sandradodd.com/strewing

>>two that are always
> bored

I'd start by getting to know those kids better. If they're bored a lot of the time, you're letting them down - hard news, I know, but happily its something you can fix! You can get more interested in what They find wonderful. Much of the time, kids who are "always bored" are interested in things parents either don't value or actively limit, so you may need to st-re-tch your mind a little to see the world through their eyes.

That's a long winded post, but I'll bring it back to the one, most important step: connect with your kids. That's the core of unschooling.

---Meredith

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 27, 2011, at 1:55 PM, Janet Rissler wrote:

> I have a large family, and find the idea of no schedule a bit
> daunting.

You can have a schedule. It's your role to make the day run
smoothly. :-) A schedule should be the servant of your family rather
than the family conforming to a schedule.


> I already hear way too much "I'm bored."


Which is their way of saying "I need some help." Depending on the
child, it might mean they need some focused time with you. If might
mean they need some help getting started.

> And no, they do NOT find their own thing to do.


Some kids do. Some kids don't. But unschooling shouldn't be seen as
"Step back and let them find their own way." Unschooling is about
keeping interesting things swirling through their lives. It's about
knowing when to step back when they're immersed in exploring. It's
about being with them as close and involved as each child needs you to
be. They will tell you far better than anyone here can how much
attention they need from you :-)

Sandra has a getting started page (plus a whole lot more) at her
website:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling

> two that are always
> bored

Always is a good word to examine. Every single moment of the day?

I assume it's hyperbole but writing it out, even thinking it, makes it
feel real. In fact Scott Noelle had a Daily Groove about always and
never recently. (I pasted it down below.)

But even one "I'm bored," is a cry for help. Here's a good article by
Sandra Dodd:

http://sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore

> she isn't the problem.

It will help your relationship with them hugely not to see *the kids*
as a problem to be solved. There are needs (and wants which it helps
to see as the same thing as needs) they would like your help
meeting. :-)

Joyce

:: WordWatch: Always/Never ::

Today, notice whenever you use the words
ALWAYS and NEVER.

The power of these words is in their ability to
*finalize* -- to make something seem "written in
stone" -- and to establish a strong *expectation*.
For example:

"He ALWAYS throws a tantrum when we leave."

"I NEVER get enough sleep."

Remember, you tend to get what you expect, so when
you hear yourself say such things, rephrase them
using softer words that leave open the possibility of
improvement:

"SOMETIMES he throws a tantrum when we leave.
(Maybe this time he'll be fine.)"

"It's been a LONG TIME since I got enough sleep.
(Perhaps I can sneak in a catnap today.)"

But *do* use always/never with uplifting thoughts:

"She ALWAYS finds her way."

"I NEVER make mistakes that I can't recover from."

http://dailygroove.net/always-never

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heather in Cincy

I know I am not the OP, but I SOOO needed to read Meredith's post. I have been only mildy successful at unschooling because in the beginning I didn't have the resources to understand unschooling and I thought it just meant leave them alone. So, I did. WRONG!! I am now equipping myself with many resources, going to as many conferences as we can afford, and trying to surround myself with more like-minded people. I am seeing much progress with this effort. (Still working on the hubby for the "lifestyle" part, though)

As Meredith pointed out, get to know your children's interests and do what you can to find things that might interest them and have them available in the house. Just because they are available doesn't mean they will take to them immediately, however. Realize that you may just need to "strew" these items or you might ask them, in a no-pressure way, if they want to do "x" with you or play a game. One of the things my son loves to do is build legos. I found a site called www.legoquestkids.blogspot.com and we have been working together on trying some of the lego challenges that she has suggested. My 10 yo works for an hour or longer on the ideas with no interruptions while my 8 yo finishes his idea in 10 minutes and is gone. They both do this with me under no pressure, but they have different levels of interest.

Somewhere I got the best advice (maybe from Sandra Dodd's website, not sure) - if your child is interested in something that you have no interest in, give it a try. Maybe you will like it and if not, at least it is something that you can understand a little about when they are discussing it. My personal example - one of my favorite shows of all times is the TV series Avatar: The Last Airbender. The boys got hooked on it and kept asking me to watch it with them. I kind of blew them off at first because I'm not a big TV fan but realized I should join them and learn about it. I LOVE IT!!! I want to watch it chronologically now and go all the way through from first episode to last. Give up any judgements about things and learn about your children and their interests.

Heather


--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> There are several basic "how to" essays linked here:
> http://sandradodd.com/howto/
>
> In some ways, there's only one "step" to unschooling and its to be more involved with your children in direct, personal ways. Get excited about their interests, take their thoughts and feeling seriously, interact with them the way you would with cherished friends, friends worth both standing up for and also giving a "word to the wise" now and then.
>
> But don't jump off the deep end all at once. I suspect the "steps" you really want/need are how to ease in, and to a large extent that depends on where you are now. If you're homeschooling, declare a vacation from anything educational - a break. Then live like you're on vacation - a good vacation where you do fun, interesting things together for the joy of it (not for "educational purposes"). Do that for a year or two. That's step one, known as deschooling. During that year or two, read more about unschooling, think about it, try things out, see what happens.
>
> > I have a large family, and find the idea of no schedule a bit daunting. I
> > see how it could work for a small family, but there needs to be some
> > direction to our day.
>
> Some people do better with a routine, while others prefer to fly by the seat of their pants. There's nothing anti-unschooling about having a bit of a routine, but don't think of your children as a homogenous unit, either - notice which ones like some variability, some surprises and actively look for ways to offer those things.
>
> If your kids are used to having direction, then its likely the don't know what to do without it yet. Regaining the ability to self-motivate is part of the deschooling process (see that link, above, there's a link to some articles on deschooling on that page). While kids are re-learning that skill, they often need time to do things that were limited by their previous schedules - things like watch a loooooot of tv or play a video games, or surf the web, or talk on the phone.
>
> You can help some kids ease in to self-motivation by saying "yes" more to things you've restricted in the past - but know that some kids will figure this out and push for more. While its Generally better to ease in, some kids benefit more from diving in wholeheartedly, feasting on previously restricted fun for awhile, and then moving on.
>
> >I already hear way too much "I'm bored." And no, they
> > do NOT find their own thing to do.
>
> As I said, unschooling is about being very involved with your children, not leave them to their own devices (unless they want that). Help them out. Help them discover if being bored really means they're lonely, or need something new, or need a direction, or actually need to sit and "be" for a little until the next wonderful idea comes along. "Bored" can mean all those things - sometimes more than one at a time! Kids in transitional stages of development are most likely to be bored on a regular basis - they've outgrown the old interests to some extent, and need help finding something new.
>
> There's an article on boredom here:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore
>
> and some ideas here:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/strewing
>
> >>two that are always
> > bored
>
> I'd start by getting to know those kids better. If they're bored a lot of the time, you're letting them down - hard news, I know, but happily its something you can fix! You can get more interested in what They find wonderful. Much of the time, kids who are "always bored" are interested in things parents either don't value or actively limit, so you may need to st-re-tch your mind a little to see the world through their eyes.
>
> That's a long winded post, but I'll bring it back to the one, most important step: connect with your kids. That's the core of unschooling.
>
> ---Meredith
>

Janet Rissler

Thanks for all the links. I also want to thank you for clarifying what
unschooling is----not just letting your children to themselves but
facilitating and encouraging them in their interests.
I feel I do that naturally, but there is always room for improvement. My
15yo is a novel-writer and is simultaneously working on two books. She is
also very interested in forensics and science in general. Not surprisingly,
she is one of the ones who does not get bored.
I think I need to examine a bit more deeply what the interests of the others
are. My 5yo is the one who is "always bored". And no, it isn't *always*, it
just seems like it. I decided yesterday to get her started on an activity
and after 30 min. had her put it away and we got out another one. That is
probably a no-no with true unschooling, but it works with her because it is
long enough for her to do the activity, but not too long for her to tire of
it for the next time.
Children do need to be required to do things they rather would not.
(character training) Believe me, there is a startling difference between a
child who helps out around the house and feels good about himself because of
his productivity, and a child who never helps and has everything done for
him--he despises himself and later finds life difficult because he expects
to be served.
My natural inclination would be to be rich and pampered, but alas, I have to
work. I was trained as a child to work whether I wanted to or not (and I
didn't want to!). I can't choose to work or not work, but I can choose to
enjoy or not enjoy it. This is a valuable thing to teach our children; they
have many choices, but one of the most important ones is to choose to be
happy no matter what they face in life. They can choose their vocation, but
they can probably not choose to not work unless they go on welfare.
Sorry this was a bit long-winded; I got carried away. :-/
~Jan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:31 AM, Janet Rissler wrote:

> I decided yesterday to get her started on an activity
> and after 30 min. had her put it away and we got out another one.
> That is
> probably a no-no with true unschooling, but it works with her
> because it is
> long enough for her to do the activity, but not too long for her to
> tire of
> it for the next time.

Unschooling is about meeting the child's needs. If she's done after 30
minutes, she's done regardless of a rule.

If you're stopping her before she's done because you fear she won't be
interested in the activity next time, then that's not about the child
but about your wants for her.

> Children do need to be required to do things they rather would not.
> (character training)

What do you believe will happen?

> Believe me, there is a startling difference between a
> child who helps out around the house and feels good about himself
> because of
> his productivity, and a child who never helps and has everything
> done for
> him--he despises himself and later finds life difficult because he
> expects
> to be served.

My daughter was never required to do anything around the house. I
asked her if she'd like to join me. Had I had the advice here I would
have found fun ways to do it, and invited her more.

At 11 she started joining me more. At 19 she's wonderful about
helping. People who have kept ownership of the chores and invited kids
as they might as a friend to help, and being truly appreciative of
what help the kids are able to give, have found the same.

People have been thoughtfulyl helping parents rethink chores and many
kids are now grown and don't expect to be served.

There's tons to read about chores here:
http://sandradodd.com/chores/

and down the right hand side here:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

> My natural inclination would be to be rich and pampered, but alas, I
> have to
> work.


Why do you think working as adults to pay bills would be a hard
concept for your kids to grasp when they're adults?

Parents who control are sure kids need controls because when the
controls are removed, kids go wild and "do what they want" and not
what they "should". They're also sure because kids who left to their
own devices don't help either.

This list offers a different approach based on being a child's
partner. If you're willing to set aside temporarily what you believe
you know about kids needing control and what you believe you know
about kids who weren't controlled, there's much food for thought!

> I can't choose to work or not work,


Yes, you could choose to not work. But, presumably, the downsides
outweigh the upsides of not working. But every time you choose to
work, you *are* choosing. There are no "You need to work" police who
will throw you in jail if you decide to stop working. (They may throw
you in jail for other reasons that come out of not paying bills and so
forth, but it's not because you've made the decision to not work.)

Sandra also has a great page of writings and links on the idea of
"Have to":

http://sandradodd.com/haveto

Grasping the idea that *everything* we do is a choice is very helpful
for unschooling! Every day you don't clean out the bank account and
take off for Fiji is a day you've chosen to be with your family. So
many parents can end up feeling trapped because they've shut the door
to choices they won't make. But if they open the doors and recognize
they *could* choose them, they realize they're not trapped and that
there are reasons they're choosing what they're choosing.

> but I can choose to
> enjoy or not enjoy it.


Absolutely!


> This is a valuable thing to teach our children;


It's a big help for unschooling to let go of the idea of teaching and
instead think in terms of learning. Teaching is about pouring ideas
into someone else's head. Learning is about pulling in what interests
someone and playing with it.

And another great page :-)
http://sandradodd.com/teaching/


> they
> have many choices, but one of the most important ones is to choose
> to be
> happy no matter what they face in life.

And what if they're not choosing that? What does a parent do then? How
do you make a child make the right choice rather than the wrong one?

That's one of the hard ideas to get in unschooling! Learning is far
far more often indirect than it is a direct path. The less we focus on
where we want our kids to be and the more we focus on today and making
their lives happy, helping them find ways to be happy, supporting them
as they work through unhappiness, the more likely they'll end up at
choosing happiness than if we directly try to teach them how to choose
happiness.

Live our values, use our values to help them get what they want and
they're far more likely to find those values valuable enough to adopt.

Joyce





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

Janet Rissler <jazimri@...> wrote:
>> Children do need to be required to do things they rather would not.
> (character training) Believe me, there is a startling difference between a
> child who helps out around the house and feels good about himself because of
> his productivity, and a child who never helps and has everything done for
> him-

Those aren't the only two options though! There's also the opportunity to invite kids to help without pressuring them to do so - and valuing the help you get. That second part is really important because kids who aren't required to help Will chip in on their own terms, but younger kids especially don't always do it in ways that parents might like. For instance, my 9yo feeds the pets, waters the plants, and reminds me to do things like laundry, shopping, and dishes. That's the sort of thing that might be easily poo-pood by a parent - but then you get a child who'd rather not help at all, since his or her contributions are invalidated. When contributions are valued, kids look for ways to offer more - that's not a theory ;) its something that happens consistently in unschooling homes.

Children don't, in fact, "need" to be required to do anything in particular - but if you've only ever met people who were required or denied opportunities it can be hard to accept that. Unschooling works by supporting the better side of human nature - and a surprising amount of that comes down to not getting in the way.

---Meredith

odiniella

--- In [email protected], Janet Rissler <jazimri@...>
wrote:
>
> I think I need to examine a bit more deeply what the interests of the
others
> are. My 5yo is the one who is "always bored". And no, it isn't
*always*, it
> just seems like it. I decided yesterday to get her started on an
activity
> and after 30 min. had her put it away and we got out another one. That
is
> probably a no-no with true unschooling, but it works with her because
it is
> long enough for her to do the activity, but not too long for her to
tire of
> it for the next time.

I think this would not be advisable by unschooling standards because
you're organizing her experiences based on your carefully thought out
opinion of what would be best for her (not to tire of an activity), but
unschoolers advocated letting the child organize her experiences based
on what she wants. The reason for that being, she naturally wants what
she needs, whether that's lots of time with an activity or little time
or to hoard the experience until she can't stand it so she can learn she
need not hoard experiences any more. The thing is, people learn best
experientially, that is, when we experience cause and effect, we learn
far more than when we are told (lessons) or when it is set up for us to
learn specifically (assigning a time limit to an activity). Being her
play-date rather than her mother and letting her set the rules will show
you what it is she needs, and you can attend to that. But it takes time
to see it this way.


****
> Children do need to be required to do things they rather would not.
> (character training) Believe me, there is a startling difference
between a
> child who helps out around the house and feels good about himself
because of
> his productivity, and a child who never helps and has everything done
for
> him--he despises himself and later finds life difficult because he
expects
> to be served.
> My natural inclination would be to be rich and pampered, but alas, I
have to
> work. I was trained as a child to work whether I wanted to or not (and
I
> didn't want to!). I can't choose to work or not work, but I can choose
to
> enjoy or not enjoy it. This is a valuable thing to teach our children;
they
> have many choices, but one of the most important ones is to choose to
be
> happy no matter what they face in life. They can choose their
vocation, but
> they can probably not choose to not work unless they go on welfare.
> Sorry this was a bit long-winded; I got carried away. :-/
> ~Jan


My experience, in the short time I've tried to embrace the unschooling
way of life, is that my kids are starting to volunteer helping out.
They don't feel like they're doing my job, like their control has been
suppressed in this way. Chores, if you think of it, are a way of
helping Mom keep the house running smoothly. It's Mom's house, though,
and our kids know that. Since letting my kids out of this expectation,
they see me work harder and they volunteer to help now. Also, I can ask
my youngest son what he wants to do with his XYZ that he's laid on the
counter or on the floor. That way I'm gently reminding him that he's
not quite finished organizing his plan for this thing. It isn't a
matter of keeping my house neat and tidy but a matter of him being in
control of what he wants to do with something that is important to him.
It is simply a different way to interpret the same event.

Helen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 29, 2011, at 12:04 PM, odiniella wrote:

> The reason for that being, she naturally wants what
> she needs, whether that's lots of time with an activity or little time
> or to hoard the experience until she can't stand it so she can learn
> she
> need not hoard experiences any more.

And she needs to try out what she guesses are the answers to her
needs. Sometimes her guess will feel right to her. Sometimes they
won't. But either way, by trying things out, she'll learn more about
herself, what she needs, and more about the world.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]