odiniella

My daughter has expressive speech delay (that was the term I was told
years ago by a SLP). She can comprehend everything that goes into her
head, but she has moderate trouble expressing new ideas. At 6 yo her
questions sounded like "Um, when we....uh...on the plane...um....so
how....Grandma....never mind." It was her way of asking how long would
our plane ride to Grandma's take. At age 13 she's far more capable than
this, but has trouble explaining enough detail to really illustrate what
she's thinking if it's a complex or novel idea. She's a voracious
reader and I've just been letting her tell me about what she's reading
to help her with this skill, but is there anything else someone can
think of to help her work on this? Peppering her for details will of
course make her feel put on the spot and uncomfortable and I can
understand why. She's very frustrated by her lack of communication
skills.

Helen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

"odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:
> She's very frustrated by her lack of communication
> skills.

Does she have trouble making conversation, or just expressing complex ideas? It might help her to know that a good many people have that same problem - but no trouble at all in writing.

>She's a voracious
> reader and I've just been letting her tell me about what she's reading
> to help her with this skill

Does she enjoy telling you about what she's reading? One of the problems with labling a kid "special needs" is it can lock you into seeing her through that framework regardless of whether its relevant. Ask her what she's reading because you're interested in her as a person, rather than seeing it as a skill building exercise.

Communication depends on listening, so if you're observing everything she's saying as though evaluating her speech, in a sense you aren't really listening to or communicating with her. In that sense, you are the one having trouble communcating ;) But at the same time, speech issues are very very sensitive to the perception of whether or not the other person is listening and cares about what's being said. If your dd gets the impression you're listening to her speech rather than to Her, then it will undermine her ability to organize her thoughts and speak clearly.

---Meredith

odiniella

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666"
<plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> "odiniella" hgaimari@ wrote:
> > She's very frustrated by her lack of communication
> > skills.
>
**** Does she have trouble making conversation, or just expressing complex
ideas? It might help her to know that a good many people have that same
problem - but no trouble at all in writing.****

Both. Her writing is much more relaxed and fluid when it's imaginative.
Her last year in school she had a big paper to do, learning how to
research, outline, edit, etc. It was terrible - very disorganized,
confusing, simplistic vocab. When she came home she started writing for
fun. I loved watching the details come out (things like describing the
hairbrush the main character was holding in her hand as it reminded her
of her mother...).

>
> >She's a voracious
> > reader and I've just been letting her tell me about what she's
reading
> > to help her with this skill
>
> Does she enjoy telling you about what she's reading?

She chooses to tell me and I listen and we talk about it, having a nice
conversation (not like a narrating exercise or comprehension quiz or
anything like that - just sharing a good story).

**** One of the problems with labling a kid "special needs" is it can lock
you into seeing her through that framework regardless of whether its
relevant. Ask her what she's reading because you're interested in her as
a person, rather than seeing it as a skill building exercise.****

I called it "special needs" because she does have some pragmatic speech
challenges that are atypical to language development. I know that
putting her on the spot to prove she knows what she's talking about
would result in her no longer wanting to share a good story with me. As
it is, it's just a pleasant conversation and I'd like to keep it that
way but I do want to help her work on this skill because it is a source
of stress for her when she can't keep up in conversation with others. I
don't want her to keep quiet because she's not confident in being able
to communicate what she's thinking.

**** > Communication depends on listening, so if you're observing everything
she's saying as though evaluating her speech, in a sense you aren't
really listening to or communicating with her. In that sense, you are
the one having trouble communcating ;) But at the same time, speech
issues are very very sensitive to the perception of whether or not the
other person is listening and cares about what's being said. If your dd
gets the impression you're listening to her speech rather than to Her,
then it will undermine her ability to organize her thoughts and speak
clearly.
>
> ---Meredith****

I agree. It really isn't my goal to use reading as a kind of secret
tool for speech practice. However, if there's a way to help her
increase this skill, I'm interested in hearing about it. The only thing
I can think of is to allow her all the time she wants to read and share
with me what she's reading. Right now she's reading steam punk stories
and she's thrilled with them. We've been pouring through the library
and book store. I wonder if there's more I can do.

Helen
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Two of the most intelligent people I know sound just like your daghter did at
6!!
This are sucessful professionals that can write amazingly well .
I had so much fun when I heard their conversations ( as a lawyer and client).
It was even more amazing how they could understand what each other was saying.


 
Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Another thought would be that since you daughter was in school ( don;t know how
long) she probably felt urged to answer quickly.  Some people need time to
formulate what they are going to say  in their mind. My son takes a long time to
answer. He is simply putting all his thoughts together. If you rush him
he cannot get even simple thoughts out. He is very well spoken.
 
Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Rossing

I've noticed with both my hubby and son that they need some sort of physical motion to help organize their thoughts. When DS was around 6 maybe, he was walking circles around the kitchen table while telling me a detailed story. I subtly shifted my chair to cause him to stop walking momentarily - and so did the story. When he started moving again, the story continued to flow. Hubby doodles or does other things (like folding paper or twisting paper clips). Also, having music/TV on in the background helps hubby to keep his thoughts in order - I've asked him about it because I could see the same traits in DS who was too little to explain it but hubby is a grown person and he said that having something to kind of block out gets all his trains of thought (because there are several at any given time) to line up so they don't crash into each other while he's trying to talk

Don't know if this will be of any help but maybe there are little things that can help (going slowly, being able to move or 'fiddle' with things, etc) - school is all about answer fast, answer "correctly", and sit still and 'quit fidgeting!'

--Deb R

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

"odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:
>The only thing
> I can think of is to allow her all the time she wants to read and share
> with me what she's reading.

That's the absolute best thing you can do. You've been sold a bill of goods by speech pathologists making out that there's some kind of "work" to be done - and just like school work, you've come to think of this in terms of "skill building". That idea is getting in your way. Be upbeat and positive about things she enjoys and enjoy them along with her. That will allow her to build on her very real strengths naturally.

>>>It really isn't my goal to use reading as a kind of secret
> tool for speech practice.

But it dose seem like its your goal to use speech as a tool for speech practice - not necessarily secretly, either. That's something to deschool from. Pursuing her interests is already allowing her to grow and learn in the area of speech, just as she's growing and learning in other areas. Unschooling works via the same principles for people of *all* degrees of ability - when a person is pursuing an interest he or she will learn almost effortlessly. Its that lack of effort, I'm guessing, that's throwing you for a loop. School and therapy sets you up to think learning looks like work. Natural learning looks and feels like play.

---Meredith

odiniella

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666"
<plaidpanties666@...> wrote:


Unschooling works via the same principles for people of *all* degrees
of ability - when a person is pursuing an interest he or she will learn
almost effortlessly. Its that lack of effort, I'm guessing, that's
throwing you for a loop. School and therapy sets you up to think
learning looks like work. Natural learning looks and feels like play.
>
> ---Meredith

I can see what you mean that years of therapy (for my son - ABA, OT,
SLP, RDI, etc) have conditioned me to think of skill building as
conscious effort. Perhaps that really is throwing me for a loop. I'll
think on that. In the mean time, you suggest unschooling works by
learning effortlessly when pursuing an interest and I'm curious if that
works with other skills, like pragmatic speech. She isn't interested in
how she tells me things so when she skips words and I fill in the blanks
in my head to follow along, I don't think of that as "learning," if that
makes sense. I think "learning" would be focusing on the details like
each word that is necessary in order to communicate a thought or idea
(conscious effort). Do I understand correctly that by allowing her to
pursue her interest in reading, this communication skill will likely
come naturally along side with whatever else she's learning?
Helen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

otherstar

From: odiniella
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 10:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: special needs question...


>>>In the mean time, you suggest unschooling works by learning effortlessly when pursuing an interest and I'm curious if that works with other skills, like pragmatic speech. She isn't interested in how she tells me things so when she skips words and I fill in the blanks in my head to follow along, I don't think of that as "learning," if that makes sense. I think "learning" would be focusing on the details like each word that is necessary in order to communicate a thought or idea (conscious effort).<<<

I am not sure that I understand what you are saying here. I wonder how focusing on each detail would be learning. What words are being left out when your daughter is talking? Is she leaving out the articles or is she leaving out the verbs or nouns. If she can communicate enough for you to understand her, then what is the problem? Are other people able to understand her when she talks? Do you think she needs to fill in those words for herself because she can't communicate with others or do you think she needs to fill in those words because that is what the "experts" are telling you.

>>>Do I understand correctly that by allowing her to pursue her interest in reading, this communication skill will likely come naturally along side with whatever else she's learning?<<<

If she loves reading, let her read. Being exposed to language (written and spoken) will help a person to develop communication skills. Think about how infants pick up language. Nobody is telling them how to talk. By being immersed in language, they pick it up. Also, you might consider finding books on tape or videos. Perhaps hearing more people talk will help her put it all together. I know that I am much more comfortable listening to other people talk because I suck when it comes to putting my thoughts into the spoken word. Writing isn't as difficult because I can proofread my writing. Speaking, especially in some situations where I am not that familiar about the topic, can be rather difficult.

Connie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

"odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:
>Do I understand correctly that by allowing her to
> pursue her interest in reading, this communication skill will likely
> come naturally along side with whatever else she's learning?

Some of the things she learns while reading will prove useful or interesting or fun in terms of communication, so she'll use those. Talking with someone who is interested in her and what she's saying about what she is reading will naturally lead to more skillfulness in talking about her interests. That may or may not have a bearing on other kinds of conversation, though, since having a conversation takes a bunch of skills working together.

> it is a source
of stress for her when she can't keep up in conversation with others.
******************

Being able to "keep up" in a conversation takes a different set of skills than being able to talk about something of personal interest. Some of those skills overlap, but not all. There may be strategies and tricks your daughter can learn to help, in the way there are strategies and tricks for people who stutter to smooth out their speech, but there's a catch! Actually, there's more than one.

The first is that you said she had an "expressive speech delay" - depending on the meaning of the word "delay" it's possible she's not developmentally ready to do those things. So just like teaching reading to too-young children, setting her up to learn those tricks will only add to her frustration. She won't be able to use them in real conversations. But if what she has is a kind of processing delay, then it may be conversations will always be a bit baffling to her. In that case, it would be better to look into the specific strategies used by adults who are poor conversationalists. In either case, its important for you to be Okay with her level of ability and find ways to support her At her level of ability.

But the other thing to ask yourself is if your daughter wants to try to learn a bunch of speech skills or if she wants something else. Maybe what she really wants is to feel heard and understood - which is not at all the same as wanting to be a better conversationalist! Maybe she wants to feel smarter or more independent - again, not the same as wanting to learn a specific set of skills. School set you up to think "frustrated in conversation" means "needs to learn xyz". But "xyz" might not matter to your daughter.

I say ask yourself because she might not be able to answer you honestly. She's still deschooling, too, after all, and needs time to get to know what she really wants, not what she's *supposed* to want, if you see what I mean?

>She isn't interested in
> how she tells me things so when she skips words and I fill in the blanks
> in my head to follow along, I don't think of that as "learning,"

If she isn't interested in how she tells you things, and you are understanding her well enough, what's the problem? Why do you think she *should* learn more? That's something to think about. You've gotten used to seeing speach errors As a communication deficit - that's what therapies and pathologists do, they set you up to look at errors and as such you can lose sight of the bigger picture.

>I think "learning" would be focusing on the details like
> each word that is necessary in order to communicate a thought or idea
> (conscious effort).

Not only is that untrue in general, it is particularly untrue in speech, where over-focusing on details can actually make hash of communication. Do you touch type? That's a good analogy if you do - try typing while thinking about all the details of what you're doing. I bet you slow waaaaaay down and make more errors ;) This is why speech therapy isn't always effective, by the way - it sets people up to over-think and gets in the way of real learning.

---Meredith

odiniella

--- In [email protected], "otherstar" <otherstar@...>
wrote:

> I am not sure that I understand what you are saying here. I wonder how
focusing on each detail would be learning. What words are being left out
when your daughter is talking? Is she leaving out the articles or is she
leaving out the verbs or nouns. If she can communicate enough for you to
understand her, then what is the problem? Are other people able to
understand her when she talks? Do you think she needs to fill in those
words for herself because she can't communicate with others or do you
think she needs to fill in those words because that is what the
"experts" are telling you.
She misses nouns, prepositions and verbs. Verbally she's referring to
one thing but in her mind she's referring to another, which changes the
whole context of what she's saying. I think she needs to fill in those
words for herself because she can't communicate effectively with others
and gets frustrated and gives up. For example, today we went to the
library to look for more books. She's exploring a new genre and the
library computer system only offers only three when we search on their
website in that genre. She'll read a book in two or three days so
she'll exhaust those few books by the end of the week (and some are
out). I went to talk to the librarian about a more thorough search on
their website. This is the kind of conversation my daughter wouldn't be
able to have. She simply wouldn't ask the librarian, wouldn't know how
to begin to ask what she wants, would feel frustrated and stupid if I
put her on the spot to explain herself what she wants, and would give up
and feel bad every time we go to the library.
***
> If she loves reading, let her read. Being exposed to language (written
and spoken) will help a person to develop communication skills. Think
about how infants pick up language. Nobody is telling them how to talk.
By being immersed in language, they pick it up. Also, you might consider
finding books on tape or videos. Perhaps hearing more people talk will
help her put it all together. I know that I am much more comfortable
listening to other people talk because I suck when it comes to putting
my thoughts into the spoken word. Writing isn't as difficult because I
can proofread my writing. Speaking, especially in some situations where
I am not that familiar about the topic, can be rather difficult.
>
> Connie

The librarian showed us a more thorough search function and so we came
away with lots of books and a smile on her face. She really does enjoy
reading more than just about anything else. I just wonder if it's
"enough," or if there's more I can offer her.
Helen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

odiniella

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666"
<plaidpanties666@...> wrote:

> But the other thing to ask yourself is if your daughter wants to try
to learn a bunch of speech skills or if she wants something else. Maybe
what she really wants is to feel heard and understood - which is not at
all the same as wanting to be a better conversationalist! Maybe she
wants to feel smarter or more independent - again, not the same as
wanting to learn a specific set of skills. School set you up to think
"frustrated in conversation" means "needs to learn xyz". But "xyz" might
not matter to your daughter.
For sure she wants to feel intelligent, valuable, confident. Her
language only catches her attention when we're not sure what she's
trying to say. I don't want to set up lessons for her, only offer her
opportunities like maybe through games or something she would enjoy
doing, only I can't think of any ideas.
****
> I say ask yourself because she might not be able to answer you
honestly. She's still deschooling, too, after all, and needs time to get
to know what she really wants, not what she's *supposed* to want, if you
see what I mean?

I do see what you mean. I've noticed another surge of confidence and
joy in her since I stopped asking the kids to work on the homeschool
curriculum. I'm wondering if neurological development goes to things
like this if she's not being asked to focus and expend her mental
energies on other things, like math or science, neither of which she is
particularly interested in and so simply tries to memorize facts (not so
well, either). Kind of like exercising a weak muscle better if one's
not being asked to work hard all day otherwise. I don't know if this
makes sense, I hope so.
****
> If she isn't interested in how she tells you things, and you are
understanding her well enough, what's the problem? Why do you think she
*should* learn more? That's something to think about. You've gotten used
to seeing speach errors As a communication deficit - that's what
therapies and pathologists do, they set you up to look at errors and as
such you can lose sight of the bigger picture.
I hope my example in the last thread helps explain why I think this
needs attention. Thank you for the ideas. I'll be looking into
resources for adults.
Thanks
Helen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

Linnaea got a haircut a couple of days ago. It's very cute. Lovely asymmetric
style. She got it on her 11th birthday. She wasn't really comfortable telling
the hair stylist what she wanted. I acted as mediator. I talked to him and to
her and described a bit of what she wanted. But mostly she wanted him to play
her hair into something attractive and interesting. Linnaea doesn't have any
problem with putting order to her thoughts or words, she just is nervous talking
to people, sometimes. Talking for her makes her life better and easier and she
appreciates it. When she gets to a point where she feels less shy around others
I'll step back.


While your daughter needs/wants you to be her go between for things like dealing
with the librarian do it. It will give her time to develop, it will, maybe, give
her a model of the skill she may want. Pushing her to be something or someone
she isn't, to have skills she doesn't yet have, won't make her feel more
capable. It will just make it a bigger anxiety moment for her to struggle
against or fail in front of than if you just kindly, and without much thought,
help her. Helping your children with what they need help with in that moment is
a good thing. Pushing them in what you think is a helpful way, a way to help
them to overcome future problems, not so much.


Schuyler





________________________________



She misses nouns, prepositions and verbs. Verbally she's referring to
one thing but in her mind she's referring to another, which changes the
whole context of what she's saying. I think she needs to fill in those
words for herself because she can't communicate effectively with others
and gets frustrated and gives up. For example, today we went to the
library to look for more books. She's exploring a new genre and the
library computer system only offers only three when we search on their
website in that genre. She'll read a book in two or three days so
she'll exhaust those few books by the end of the week (and some are
out). I went to talk to the librarian about a more thorough search on
their website. This is the kind of conversation my daughter wouldn't be
able to have. She simply wouldn't ask the librarian, wouldn't know how
to begin to ask what she wants, would feel frustrated and stupid if I
put her on the spot to explain herself what she wants, and would give up
and feel bad every time we go to the library.


The librarian showed us a more thorough search function and so we came
away with lots of books and a smile on her face. She really does enjoy
reading more than just about anything else. I just wonder if it's
"enough," or if there's more I can offer her.
Helen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

Sometimes things need to develop more in order for them to function well. Some
children come to reading much later than others because the neural pathways that
they lay down are different, or slower to develop than the children who come to
reading earlier. Rather than see your daughter's difficulty with explaining what
she is thinking as a weak muscle, it may be a better perspective for all
concerned if you see it as something that is still developing. That way you will
feel less like you need to push her to practice her speech skills and more like
you can support her in her desire to make her ideas clear to others.


In an earlier e-mail you wrote:
>>"My daughter has expressive speech delay (that was the term I was told
years ago by a SLP). She can comprehend everything that goes into her
head, but she has moderate trouble expressing new ideas. At 6 yo her
questions sounded like "Um, when we....uh...on the plane...um....so
how....Grandma....never mind." It was her way of asking how long would
our plane ride to Grandma's take. At age 13 she's far more capable than
this, but has trouble explaining enough detail to really illustrate what
she's thinking if it's a complex or novel idea. She's a voracious
reader and I've just been letting her tell me about what she's reading
to help her with this skill, but is there anything else someone can
think of to help her work on this? Peppering her for details will of
course make her feel put on the spot and uncomfortable and I can
understand why. She's very frustrated by her lack of communication
skills."<<

Between 6 and 13 her ability has grown. I'm sure that it will continue to
develop. Support her when she needs support. Maybe, if she is alright with it,
you can repeat what you understand her to have said back to her in moments when
you aren't sure of her point. I've done that when I'm not sure what it is that
Simon and Linnaea are talking about. Or even with David, my husband. But if she
is feeling sensitive, if she is feeling like you may be putting her on the spot,
just listen to her and don't push. Let her grow in a safe and loving environment
without pushing her. Nurture her as she is and help her to get her needs met.


Schuyler


=================================

I do see what you mean. I've noticed another surge of confidence and
joy in her since I stopped asking the kids to work on the homeschool
curriculum. I'm wondering if neurological development goes to things
like this if she's not being asked to focus and expend her mental
energies on other things, like math or science, neither of which she is
particularly interested in and so simply tries to memorize facts (not so
well, either). Kind of like exercising a weak muscle better if one's
not being asked to work hard all day otherwise. I don't know if this
makes sense, I hope so.
****

I hope my example in the last thread helps explain why I think this
needs attention. Thank you for the ideas. I'll be looking into
resources for adults.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Momma

----when a person is pursuing an interest he or she will learn almost effortlessly.

I wish it would work this way with my dd. She wants so much to read and I hoped that by not making it an issue and just helping her when she asked it would all fall into place, but so far it hasn't. She has always loved books and has a ton of them. She takes several with her where ever she goes but can't read 3 letter words. I read to her when she asks me to but she seems so frustrated. She is afraid to go out with friends without me or her brother because she is embarrassed to ask anyone else for help. Unfortunately, it has not been effortless for her.
Aubrey





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

But an interest in reading is an abstraction. Reading is a tool for accessing
things, it isn't in itself an interest, if you see what I mean. Being interested
in, for example, growing carrots is something precise that incurs lots of extra
and tangential picking up of knowledge. You figure out soil acidity, geology
(local at least), colour, beta carotene, worms, maybe some math in plotting out
volumes of soil required for an area, pollination, seasons, pests, other plants
that can keep pests at bay, etc... Maybe you get at those pieces of knowledge
via reading, maybe you get at those pieces of knowledge by talking to other
gardeners, maybe through trial and error. So growing carrots may help you in
some social arenas or with mastering reading as you ponder over the calendars
and region maps on the back of the packets. The tangential learning is
effortless, seemingly, in the face of such an interest.


Reading seems to take some neural development to master. If your daughter
doesn't have the right neural pathways in place there is nothing that you can do
to hie them along. Just help her as she needs help and see if you can come up
with some strategies for how she deals with situations where she thinks reading
or writing may be important. Work to give her the tools that she needs to
negotiate with a world that she wants to negotiate instead of lamenting the
tools that she has yet to acquire and that you can't give her.


Schuyler




________________________________
From: Momma <southernbelle@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 24 March, 2011 13:38:47
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: special needs question...

----when a person is pursuing an interest he or she will learn almost
effortlessly.

I wish it would work this way with my dd. She wants so much to read and I hoped
that by not making it an issue and just helping her when she asked it would all
fall into place, but so far it hasn't. She has always loved books and has a ton
of them. She takes several with her where ever she goes but can't read 3 letter
words. I read to her when she asks me to but she seems so frustrated. She is
afraid to go out with friends without me or her brother because she is
embarrassed to ask anyone else for help. Unfortunately, it has not been
effortless for her.

Aubrey

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

"odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:
>I don't want to set up lessons for her, only offer her
> opportunities like maybe through games or something she would enjoy
> doing, only I can't think of any ideas.

At its core, unschooling isn't about creating learning opportunities for kids, but about realizing that people are wired to learn - even people with "special needs". The "learning opportunities" you create won't necessarily translate into actual learning, but they'll reassure you that you're "doing something". Even if what you're doing is sabotaging her process! Step back from this for awhile and spend more time enjoying your daughter for who she is, rather than fussing over the skills you want her to develop.

>I'm wondering if neurological development goes to things
> like this if she's not being asked to focus and expend her mental
> energies on other things, like math or science, neither of which she is
> particularly interested in and so simply tries to memorize facts (not so
> well, either). Kind of like exercising a weak muscle better if one's
> not being asked to work hard all day otherwise. I don't know if this
> makes sense, I hope so.

I think I get what you mean - and I've seen that in my 17yo when he was in school and even now when he spends a lot of time with his bio mom. He expends so much energy plodding through things he doesn't want to do and resisting that he doesn't have the time or energy to learn about things that matter to him. Actually, to some extent that happens if he asks my partner to teach him something, too - Ray and George think sooooo differently that Ray will learn less from George than he would fumbling around, trying to do the same thing without any help at all. It's frustrating for both of them! So when Ray wants to learn a skill from a person, he asks someone other than George for the most part. And when he wants to hang out with his dad he finds some social way to do it, rather than trying to combine it with a project.

---Meredith

otherstar

From: odiniella
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 7:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: special needs question...

>>>She misses nouns, prepositions and verbs. Verbally she's referring to one thing but in her mind she's referring to another, which changes the whole context of what she's saying. I think she needs to fill in those words for herself because she can't communicate effectively with others and gets frustrated and gives up.<<<

The big question is Does she want to communicate with others? I don't always like hanging out and communicating with others. I am much more comfortable on these lists because I can think about what is being said and formulate a response. Can she communicate with you without too much trouble? People can communicate without words. I am thinking of how I do things with my kids. They don't always speak clearly. Instead of focusing on them saying it just right, I might tell them, "I am not sure what you are trying to say, will you please show me?" Then, the focus is completely taken off verbal communication and the situation is diffused. Also, I will ask my kids yes/no questions when I don't understand what they are trying to tell me. I take the burden off of them.

>>>For example, today we went to the library to look for more books. She's exploring a new genre and the library computer system only offers only three when we search on their website in that genre. She'll read a book in two or three days so she'll exhaust those few books by the end of the week (and some are out). I went to talk to the librarian about a more thorough search on their website. This is the kind of conversation my daughter wouldn't be
able to have. She simply wouldn't ask the librarian, wouldn't know how to begin to ask what she wants, would feel frustrated and stupid if I put her on the spot to explain herself what she wants, and would give up
and feel bad every time we go to the library.<<<<

Does your daughter want to be able to have those kinds of conversation? Or, do you want her to be able to have them to make your life easier? If she likes going to the library with you, then be her advocate and do her talking for her. Does your daughter want to go to the library by herself? If she does, then you can help her find ways around the situation. For example, you can show her/tell her about writing down what she wants on a piece of paper so she can hand it to the librarian. You can also tell her strategies such as taking a book to the librarian and showing it to him/her and saying "More like this please". There are lots of ways of getting what you want without having a full blown conversation.

Connie

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plaidpanties666

"Momma" <southernbelle@...> wrote:
>She wants so much to read and I hoped that by not making it an issue and just helping her when she asked it would all fall into place, but so far it hasn't.
**************

I should have said "when a person is pursuing an interest he or she is *developmentally ready* to master" - that's important. Just like verbal communication, reading depends on a whole set of skills and they don't all develop at the same rate.

Its perfectly normal for some children to only be ready to read in adolescence. Schools cover up that information by putting kids in "remedial" and "extra help" classes but a large number of kids in school can't actually read. For that matter, schools consider a child to be "reading" if he or she can puzzle out vocabulary that's a year or two "behind" that person's spoken level of ability *and* schools consider "comprehension" to be separate to some extent from reading.

Keep reading to your daughter. Offer her more ways to be independent where stories are concerned if she likes stories, by getting audio books. If she wants, put subtitles/captions on the tv and movies.

---Meredith

odiniella

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666"
<plaidpanties666@...> wrote:

> At its core, unschooling isn't about creating learning opportunities
for kids, but about realizing that people are wired to learn - even
people with "special needs".
> ---Meredith


Do you mind if I expand on this a bit? I don't mean to be argumentative
and I apologize if I am. I'm trying to sort this out and thinking out
and being able to bounce my ideas off people with experiences I don't
have is helpful for me. The idea of being wired to learn is an idea I
understand and agree with. At the same time, my experience with a child
on the autistic spectrum disorder has shown me that some wiring has
major glitches. He would not be the same person he is today without
tons of outside intervention. He worked hard with his ABA therapists
and as he got older, with his psychiatrist. Letting him learn at his
own pace would have crippled him socially because his own pace was
disordered from what is the natural pace - the way neurotypical people
learn. My daughter has just a touch of this kind of glitch (her
language skills) and I'm concerned that by leaving it alone and allowing
it to develop along the lines she's wired to develop, she'll not be able
to access what she could otherwise access with intervening help, and it
will cripple her in ways that could be avoided.
Helen


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plaidpanties666

"odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:
> I think she needs to fill in those
> words for herself because she can't communicate effectively with others
> and gets frustrated and gives up.

Lots of people struggle to communicate effectively. Its one of the ongoing themes of human interaction! But you don't know that "filling in those words" will help her - you don't even know if its something she can do.

> I went to talk to the librarian about a more thorough search on
> their website. This is the kind of conversation my daughter wouldn't be
> able to have. She simply wouldn't ask the librarian, wouldn't know how
> to begin to ask what she wants, would feel frustrated and stupid if I
> put her on the spot to explain herself what she wants, and would give up
> and feel bad every time we go to the library.

How old is she again? I couldn't do something like that as a teen - not until I was...30 maybe. I would flat out have no idea what or how to ask. I honestly think it took me so long becasue I was expected to do things like that sooner - so I avoided them at all costs. I was able to learn those skills by watching other adults ask questions - but I couldn't even *watch* really, until I over came my aversion that came from the idea that I "should" be able to do those things.

Go and ask questions for you daughter calmly. Don't press her, don't even "encourage" her. Just do it. It may take time for her to be able to pay attention to what you're doing. If she's had speech therapy and been in school, she's likely learned to ignore adults and avoid things that make her feel self conscious. So its up to you to set things up so she doesn't have to feel seld conscious and can heal from that damage.

If she can ask a stranger for help before she's 30, she'll have done better than me ;)

---Meredith

odiniella

--- In [email protected], "otherstar" <otherstar@...>
wrote:

> The big question is Does she want to communicate with others? I don't
always like hanging out and communicating with others. I am much more
comfortable on these lists because I can think about what is being said
and formulate a response.
>
> Connie

I prefer online communication for the same reason as my daughter (the
words don't come out so easily and it's awkward and uncomfortable) but I
can. I can chat with the person at the Farmer's Market if he's chatting
with people, I can ask the librarian a question, if I see a friend
unexpectedly I can talk with her in person. It's these kinds of
spontaneous, unexpected conversations that my daughter has trouble with.
She texts regularly with a friend but if she sees another one in person,
she is quiet as a church mouse. She can hang out with friends if she
knows she's going to see them, she can have fun at park days, but if
there's an unexpected conversation or one she's not prepared for or
accustomed to then she freezes. Role playing at the park is different
than asking specific questions at the library or shooting the breeze
with a friend you bump into on the sidewalk.
Thanks for the ideas - I'm starting to see more details about her
situation (like the spontaneous or complex conversation rather than
general conversation).
Helen


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odiniella

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666"
<plaidpanties666@...> wrote:


> How old is she again?
13

****
> Go and ask questions for you daughter calmly. Don't press her, don't
even "encourage" her. Just do it. It may take time for her to be able to
pay attention to what you're doing. If she's had speech therapy and been
in school, she's likely learned to ignore adults and avoid things that
make her feel self conscious. So its up to you to set things up so she
doesn't have to feel seld conscious and can heal from that damage.

YES. This is a huge part of why I like having her at home. When she
first came home I saw just what kinds of skills she had learned in
school, namely, sit quietly and wait for The Next Thing when you're not
sure what's going on.


****If she can ask a stranger for help before she's 30, she'll have done
better than me ;)>
> ---Meredith
**snicker**


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plaidpanties666

"odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:
>I'm concerned that by leaving it alone and allowing
> it to develop along the lines she's wired to develop, she'll not be able
> to access what she could otherwise access with intervening help, and it
> will cripple her in ways that could be avoided.

Arguably, school has already crippled her in ways that could have been avoided.

Unschooling isn't about leaving things alone, though, its a matter of seeing learning from the perspective of the learner. People who learn atypically still learn, and while they may favor certain skills and attend to different kinds of data, the basic principles of learning are still the same. People learn that which they find meaningful.

>>Letting him learn at his
> own pace would have crippled him socially

You're mistaking "learning at ones own pace" for something else... being left to ones own devices perhaps.

Giving a person room to explore the world on his or her own terms doesn't mean you *never* give that person outside help or information. And that outside help and information is part of what allows people to decide *what* they find meaningful.

But its also possible to shove information at a person such that he or she *does not* find it meaningful - maybe finds it annoying or distracting instead. So the middle ground between "over-intervention" and "left to ones own devices" involves gently offering information and support And Then observing carefully to see if that information and support is at all useful.

So, for instance, you know that correcting your daughter's speech, or filling in words for her, or nit-picking over what she says isn't the kind of information she finds helpful - right? And you're looking for other information to offer. But there's a catch, because your both still deschooling. Right now its more important to observe what happens when you step back a bit. What happens when she's not fighting off the effects of over-intervention? That's really important to know!

---Meredith

odiniella

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666"
<plaidpanties666@...> wrote:

>>> Arguably, school has already crippled her in ways that could have been
avoided.<<<

I agree.

>>>> Unschooling isn't about leaving things alone, though, its a matter of
seeing learning from the perspective of the learner. People who learn
atypically still learn, and while they may favor certain skills and
attend to different kinds of data, the basic principles of learning are
still the same. People learn that which they find meaningful.<<<

Is there a reference to which you can direct me to explore how this
works? I'm curious, but also a slow learner and if I can have a picture
in my head as to how this looks, it makes it easier for me to see it in
context (and not forget).

****
>>> Giving a person room to explore the world on his or her own terms
doesn't mean you *never* give that person outside help or information.
And that outside help and information is part of what allows people to
decide *what* they find meaningful.
>
> But its also possible to shove information at a person such that he or
she *does not* find it meaningful - maybe finds it annoying or
distracting instead. So the middle ground between "over-intervention"
and "left to ones own devices" involves gently offering information and
support And Then observing carefully to see if that information and
support is at all useful.
>
> So, for instance, you know that correcting your daughter's speech, or
filling in words for her, or nit-picking over what she says isn't the
kind of information she finds helpful - right? And you're looking for
other information to offer. But there's a catch, because your both still
deschooling. Right now its more important to observe what happens when
you step back a bit. What happens when she's not fighting off the
effects of over-intervention? That's really important to know!<<<

Thank you for all this, especially the bolded.
Helen



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plaidpanties666

"odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:
>> Is there a reference to which you can direct me to explore how this
> works? I'm curious, but also a slow learner and if I can have a picture
> in my head as to how this looks, it makes it easier for me to see it in
> context (and not forget).

If you need a picture in your head, maybe you're not so much "a slow learner" as you tend toward more spatial intelligence than verbal intelligence ;)

http://www.thomasarmstrong.com/multiple_intelligences.php

That's a quick link to the theory of multiple intelligences. A book often recommended about learning in general is Frank Smith's "The Book of Learning and Forgetting".

Sandra Dodd has written a good deal about how learning happens naturally, and collected things others have written too. Here are a couple pages with a very visual format (helps if you have a big screen):

http://sandradodd.com/connections/
http://sandradodd.com/focus

Here's one on learning and communication that also ties in to something Deb R mentioned, that some people focus better when they're doing something else, too:
http://sandradodd.com/truck

---Meredith

odiniella

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666"
<plaidpanties666@...> wrote:

> If you need a picture in your head, maybe you're not so much "a slow
learner" as you tend toward more spatial intelligence than verbal
intelligence ;)
>
> http://www.thomasarmstrong.com/multiple_intelligences.php
>
> That's a quick link to the theory of multiple intelligences. A book
often recommended about learning in general is Frank Smith's "The Book
of Learning and Forgetting".
>
> Sandra Dodd has written a good deal about how learning happens
naturally, and collected things others have written too. Here are a
couple pages with a very visual format (helps if you have a big screen):
>
> http://sandradodd.com/connections/
> http://sandradodd.com/focus
>
> Here's one on learning and communication that also ties in to
something Deb R mentioned, that some people focus better when they're
doing something else, too:
> http://sandradodd.com/truck
>
> ---Meredith
Thank you!!!
(my dd gets distracted if she fiddles with something, go figure)
>



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otherstar

From: odiniella
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: special needs question...

>>>> She can hang out with friends if she knows she's going to see them, she can have fun at park days, but if there's an unexpected conversation or one she's not prepared for or accustomed to then she freezes.<<<

I am an adult and I often times finding myself thinking "why the heck are these people talking to me?" when people talk to me unexpectedly. I have trouble formulating thoughtful responses and then beat myself up over my inadequate attempts at small talk. My niece (18) and I were talking about this yesterday. Neither one of us really see the need to talk a lot. Both of us feel misunderstood because we don't always understand why some people insist on talking so much. If we have something important to say or really care about the other person, then talking is pretty easy. When put on the spot, it is easy to freeze.

>>>Role playing at the park is different than asking specific questions at the library or shooting the breeze with a friend you bump into on the sidewalk.<<<

Just to add a little more perspective. Think about the way things operate in schools. If you daughter is 13 and has been in school up until recently, she has never really had the opportunity to shoot the breeze with somebody that she has bumped into on the sidewalk. In schools, when you are in the hall (aka sidewalk), you are not allowed to talk. If you are in the younger grades, students are lined up to go places. While in line, you are expected to be quiet and NOT talk to your neighbor. If you are in the higher grades and are between classes, there isn't much time to talk otherwise you run the risk of being tardy. Some schools have even gone to silent lunches. Even if lunch isn't silent, they are really short and do not really leave much opportunity for visiting. In many schools, asking specific questions is often discouraged. Teachers tell you what to study and what to talk about. If you go to the library at school, the teacher is the one that is guiding what you do through things like assigned reading or research. Some schools have accelerated reader programs where they will only let you check out books that are on the level that they have determined you to be on. There is very little choice. Making small talk and shooting the breeze is an acquired skill for some people. It takes lots of practice. It takes having lots of opportunities to sit back and watch other people do it. How can you expect your daughter to have those skills if she has never really been exposed to them outside of school? How can you expect your daughter to get it if she has never had the opportunity to sit back and watch others without the pressure to perform?

Connie

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