Joyce Fetteroll

Posted for someone else. --- Joyce

==============

What do you think is the central intention behind unschooling? I have
started looking at unschooling because it seemed to me that the
central intention had to do with relationships - maintaining, building
up, sustaining, and putting ahead of other things... So, very much
unlike that tigermother who put academic or musical achievement way
way ahead of anything else, or even the conventional schooling
approach that says academics are the answer to everything... the point
(one of many?) of is to establish a partnership and trust first and
foremost, which can then serve as a base point from which to explore
all that the world has to offer... Something like it?

JJ

By George, I think she'd got it! :)

"maintaining, building up, sustaining, and putting ahead of other things... the point
(one of many?) of is to establish a partnership and trust first and
foremost, which can then serve as a base point from which to explore
all that the world has to offer... Something like it?"

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> Posted for someone else. --- Joyce
>

Joyce Fetteroll

> I have
> started looking at unschooling because it seemed to me that the
> central intention had to do with relationships - maintaining, building
> up, sustaining, and putting ahead of other things...

I see the intention of unschooling as joyful learning.

I see the intention of radical unschooling as joyful living and
learning.

The foundation that allows that to run smoothly, I think, is great
relationships. The principles that help those relationships grow are
peace, security, joy, respect, trust, honesty, truth, kindness,
helpfulness, patience, compassion and so forth.

> the point
> (one of many?) of is to establish a partnership and trust first and
> foremost, which can then serve as a base point from which to explore
> all that the world has to offer... Something like it?

There are unschoolers who confine the free exploration and discovery
to academics. They require chores and can otherwise look like
conventional parents. I can't say that their children's exploration of
"the world" is hampered. They're free to follow their interests and
are trusted they'll discover what they need to know by doing that.

Radical unschoolers extend the principles of unschooling into
parenting so it's not that the relationship needs to come before the
exploring. The relationship is an integral part of radical unschooling
by definition. The exploring and relationship are partners. They
coexist. The sum is greater than the parts :-)

But when searching for solutions to problems, whatever moves towards
better relationships or helps avoid damaging the relationship is
likely to help someone move toward smoother flowing radical unschooling.

Joyce



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

Well, this is where my cold-blooded side is going to come screaming to the fore, because I don't see relationships as the point of unschooling but as a primary tool for creating an environment that supports exploration and discovery. People are part of the environment, and in the home parents are a very significant part of the environment so relationships become a key factor in making that environment rich and supportive.

The central premise of unschooling is that human nature itself is sufficient for learning (which, outside of radical unschooling is defined more narrowly as "sufficient" for learning certain subjects or skills but not others).

The main correlary to that premise is that human beings can support one another so that each person's learning may flourish in ways special to that individual. So *my* central intention is to support the people around me as best I can So That they have the best chance of pursuing their own goals Because all human endeavors revolve around learning.

I think it's important, when thinking about the roots and goals of unschooling, to keep touching base with learning - otherwise the idea of a "good relationship" starts to get very fuzzy and subjective. When you strip the nuts and bolts of parenting down to what helps learning, you get to throw away the vast majority of common parenting wisdom. You don't Need all those rules and limits and pressures and machinations in order for kids to grow up to be thoughtful, capable people. And that's fantastic! You don't have to be the ogre parent "because kids have to learn". You Get to be friends with your kids (the good kind of friend who's warm and supportive, not the friend who can't be bothered to return phone calls unless she's in the middle of High Drama). You Get to focus on relationships in the best possible way. You Get to live joyfully.

---Meredith

JJ

Wow, that shakes up my settled ideas. Hmmm. I think I'd want to argue the other side if it were a debating resolution, something like: RESOLVED: human relationships exist only as tools to support human learning, or even RESOLVED: human relationships are secondary to human learning.

Thank goodness it isn't! :)




--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> Well, this is where my cold-blooded side is going to come screaming to the fore, because I don't see relationships as the point of unschooling but as a primary tool for creating an environment that supports exploration and discovery. People are part of the environment, and in the home parents are a very significant part of the environment so relationships become a key factor in making that environment rich and supportive.
>
> The central premise of unschooling is that human nature itself is sufficient for learning (which, outside of radical unschooling is defined more narrowly as "sufficient" for learning certain subjects or skills but not others).
>
> The main correlary to that premise is that human beings can support one another so that each person's learning may flourish in ways special to that individual. So *my* central intention is to support the people around me as best I can So That they have the best chance of pursuing their own goals Because all human endeavors revolve around learning.
>
> I think it's important, when thinking about the roots and goals of unschooling, to keep touching base with learning - otherwise the idea of a "good relationship" starts to get very fuzzy and subjective. When you strip the nuts and bolts of parenting down to what helps learning, you get to throw away the vast majority of common parenting wisdom. You don't Need all those rules and limits and pressures and machinations in order for kids to grow up to be thoughtful, capable people. And that's fantastic! You don't have to be the ogre parent "because kids have to learn". You Get to be friends with your kids (the good kind of friend who's warm and supportive, not the friend who can't be bothered to return phone calls unless she's in the middle of High Drama). You Get to focus on relationships in the best possible way. You Get to live joyfully.
>
> ---Meredith
>

plaidpanties666

"JJ" <jrossedd@...> wrote:
>
> Wow, that shakes up my settled ideas. Hmmm. I think I'd want to argue the other side if it were a debating resolution, something like: RESOLVED: human relationships exist only as tools to support human learning, or even RESOLVED: human relationships are secondary to human learning.
********************

If you (or anyone else) want to go for it, there's this list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advancedrutopics/

Its pretty dead these days, but it could be a fun way to liven things up with a purely theoretical debate. (Newcomers welcome, but be advised its much more heavily moderated than most unschooling lists).

---Meredith

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 5, 2011, at 9:55 AM, JJ wrote:

> RESOLVED: human relationships exist only as tools to support human
> learning, or even RESOLVED: human relationships are secondary to
> human learning.

Some ideas are true within a context but not true outside that
context. Unschooling is a subset of family life but family life
includes a whole lot more than the learning that happens.

But the focus of the discussion here on the list is about learning and
how to create an environment for that. The discussion is about joyful
living in support of joyful learning. But I doubt anyone here sees
joyful learning as the only reason to live joyfully! :-)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

JJ

I surely won't argue with that! :D
JJ
>
>
The discussion is about joyful living in support of joyful learning. But I doubt anyone here sees joyful learning as the only reason to live joyfully! :-)
>
> Joyce
>

Kim Zerbe

"Radical unschoolers extend the principles of unschooling into
parenting so it's not that the relationship needs to come before the
exploring. The relationship is an integral part of radical unschooling
by definition. The exploring and relationship are partners. They
coexist. The sum is greater than the parts :-) "

I don't really get how parents could be unschooling and then realize they
need to change the way they are parenting. That seems like so much work! I
did the reverse. It seemed so natural. But I could have gotten off track
quite easily.

I've been working on my relationship with my son from day 1. Sometimes I
wonder if he hadn't been such a demanding baby if I would have been a
different parent. The way I am raising my son certainly isn't the way I was
raised! I have empathy and compassion that wasn't shown to me. As it turned
out, he hated to be left alone (in a bassinet, in a swing, in a stroller) so
in order to not have to hear him cry, I held him a lot. I had slings, wraps,
and carriers for different purposes. My back ached but my baby was happy. We
quickly gave up on the bassinet idea and let him sleep with us. All things
centered on what made the baby happy because if he was happy, I was too. I
felt like a good mother.

It gets a little harder though, as kids grow up, to continue treating them
that way. I mean as I started to hang around other mothers and kids it
seemed like there was a fine line between letting your child explore a room
while keeping him safe and controlling what he explores. As the kids learned
to talk, they could tell us what they wanted. It seemed like then the mother
could continue to give the child what he wanted or withhold for some reason
and that's when mothers started to say no. For various reasons or seemingly
no reason.

Child: I want cookie.
Mom: No cookies, we're having lunch soon.
Child cries.
Mom: Stop crying. Play with this toy.
Child takes toy and throws across room while crying harder or screaming.
Mom yells at child to not throw toy and stop crying. Maybe even puts in time
out.

I can't say I had a lot of friends who were like that, but I did see
episodes like that. Mothers following a script of what they think they are
supposed to be doing. Somewhere we get off track. We stop following our
baby's cues and start trying to make them follow ours. And we don't even
know the reasons why we are doing some of the things we do! I can see where
parents might start out with the best intentions and then get off track. Do
I keep doing what feels right? I don't want a spoiled child. Or do I start
doing what everyone else is doing?

Anyway, I was just trying to explain how I feel like I started off on the
right path to having a good relationship with my son, but was almost
sidetracked into the folly of mainstream parenting as he got older. Many of
my friends started sending their kids to preschool at ages 2 and 3. I
wondered why a SAHM would opt to send her child away, willingly, for someone
else to raise. I was a little more understanding of working moms doing that,
I mean they had to work, right? But those who stayed home? I couldn't
understand it. A few of my friends kept their kids at home and we continued
meeting up and going to the zoo and stuff like that.

I could see where this was going though. They were going to put their kids
in Kindergarten and we'd part ways. I started to seek out new friends. I
wanted more like minded friends who would support my journey because it felt
right to be compassionate when my son had a breakdown and to say yes to
things he wanted.

Luckily I found a good group of likeminded parents and a friend recommended
this unschooling conference to me. I went when my son was 3, almost 4, and
that changed my life! There were other parents helping their children
explore, saying yes, acting more as partners in learning than dictators. I
liked that atmosphere so much! I finally felt like I could stay on this path
and had examples of how kids could be if not sent to school.

So for me, unschooling flowed from the parenting relationship I had and
wanted to continue! It seems so natural I can't see a distinction from the 2
ideas. It's just a continuation of how I wanted to raise my child. I must
say that it helped tremendously to see other people doing it and have a
model to follow and connecting with others within that community. It would
be hard to do alone with no similar friends.

Kim in Oregon



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Rossing

Kim, yes - if one starts unschooling from the get-go as you have, then
it all kind of flows together, the parenting and everything else (since
parenting starts first and then the 'school years'). However, many folks
don't take that path. They don't even look for something like
unschooling until school starts not working for their children. They
start with trying to find a better educational path for their child(ren)
and maybe discover that learning freely 'works best' for their kid(s).
Trusting the kids to learn to read, write, find Brazil on a map,
whatever, questioning whether the 'traditional' educational paradigm is
valid, then draws into question all the other parenting paradigms and
"givens". If kids don't have to go to school, do they have learn in the
same way school does things? If they aren't getting up early for school,
are 8 pm bedtimes mandatory? If they aren't having to leave the house
early for school, is it mandatory to have breakfast and be dressed first
thing? And so on.

Deb R


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...> wrote:
>However, many folks
> don't take that path. They don't even look for something like
> unschooling until school starts not working for their children.

Or, as in my case, rule-based parenting stops working. It can *seem* to work for younger kids if the rules are things like "mommy must respond to baby's cues" but those rules change as kids get older and develop more exploration skills.

Actually, coming into the relationship with my stepson when he was 4, rules seemed like they worked at first, also. He'd had so much chaos and uncertainty in his life that rules were better! But over time I started to realize that adhering to rules also introduced a level of chaos and uncertainty - so I shifted to looking for the reasons behind the rules and looking for way to meet needs rather than "correct" behavior. But! at the same time I was also homeschooling (school at home).

Poor Ray got to suffer through my learning process, I'm afraid, while Mo has mostly reaped the rewards of unschooling from the start.

---Meredith