Joelle Permutt

Somethings that I find helpful:
If I can manage it I try turn my anger or frustration to humor, so
acting silly or goofy suddenly often helps get my 3 and 6 yr old out
of funks.
Two phrases that I've got in my head are 1. Don't match their energy
and 2. They would act more mature if they could

I do also often think what one other mom wrote, that they grow so fast
and soon they won't be little so I try HARD to remind myself to enjoy
the moment - whatever the moment is about. Trying to find joyful
things in each moment isn't easy! I also have anger issues! :) but I
do try so hard b/c I want to be joyful and not be taken down by the
hard times. I'm trying hard everyday to change my programming.

Joelle

Sent from my iPhone

JJ

Yes! Me snarling at other drivers as a younger mom in annoying traffic was not fun for the kids as a captive audience, and we were in the car a LOT. It wasn't helping me enjoy our life either. I consciously made a game of my running commentary about traffic, asking little DD to help me think up silly awards to bestow on each driver. "Look, it must be Pull Out in Front of Mama Day again, here's the first contestant in the yellow beetle car! Will he win or have to settle for the Cutest Car Consolation Prize when this lawn mowing trailer takes the cake?!" Soon DD was doing the commentary for me, like radio sportscasting and kept me laughing too hard to mind the traffic at all.


> Some things that I find helpful:
> If I can manage it I try turn my anger or frustration to humor,
> . . .acting silly or goofy suddenly

I try HARD to remind myself to enjoy
> the moment - whatever the moment is about. Trying to find joyful
> things in each moment
>

cathy_jerad_adela

Thanks to those that replied about handling anger better. Using humour is such a great idea, as is letting go the control more.

I can see that most times I get angry or try to coerce dd (3 y.o.) is related to fearing others' judgements of me. This afternoon she started falling asleep in the car at 4pm (which made perfect sense for her) but I got angry about it because I arranged for us to drive to visit relatives tomorrow and I fear what they would think of me (as a parent and a person) if we are both exhausted from staying up late (which tends to happen if she naps in the afternoon). I sometimes try to coerce her to wear a clean shirt or put on shoes, simply because of what others might think, when I honestly don't think it's important and I trust her to do what she needs to now.

I can see the effects of my anger is to give a powerful message about her not being acceptable / worthy, and that she'd better do what I expect and do it before I get angry (i.e., anticipate what might bother me and do what will please me). That, I can now see, is what I experienced as a child, and I continue to go on trying to anticipate and meet expectations and avoid judgement, even though I very much have chosen my own path, it's something I struggle with a lot. I really don't want to give dd this message, I want to raise her fully free and loved, unlike how I was raised. argh!

Anyway I'm really trying to unravel those inner messages about meeting my Mum's and others expectations. Seeing as they bind me and lead to my anger which may bind dd. grr.

Any encouraging comments about how to overcome wanting to meet others' expectations, or let go of childhood messages, would be great.

Thank you,
Cathy
dd 3

otherstar

From: cathy_jerad_adela
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 6:01 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: dealing with my anger / others' expectations


>>>I can see that most times I get angry or try to coerce dd (3 y.o.) is related to fearing others' judgements of me. This afternoon she started falling asleep in the car at 4pm (which made perfect sense for her) but I got angry about it because I arranged for us to drive to visit relatives tomorrow and I fear what they would think of me (as a parent and a person) if we are both exhausted from staying up late (which tends to happen if she naps in the afternoon). I sometimes try to coerce her to wear a clean shirt or put on shoes, simply because of what others might think, when I honestly don't think it's important and I trust her to do what she needs to now. <<<

Why is what they think so important to you? I have had to ask myself that question more times that I would like to admit. How will your relatives know that you were deliberately up late? If you are exhausted, can't you just say, "We had a rough night" and leave it at that. I find that I can avoid a lot of questions and judgment by minimizing how much detail I share with others. Even mainstream moms have had days where kids have fallen asleep in the car, which resulted in a later bed time. A lot of that kind of thing can be avoided by advance planning. We don't go out before noon so that everyone can sleep until they are ready to wake up. If I know the kids are going to fall asleep in the car and I don't want them to, I try to find ways to avoid the car all together. If my daughter doesn't want to put on a clean shirt, I think about where we are going and how necessary it is for her to have on a clean shirt. I have found that keeping outings to later in the day allows my kids to go out without putting on the clean shirt. For some reason, if you are out late in the day, people don't look twice at a kid with a dirty shirt. Also, I carry extra clothes with me in the car so I can change their clothes if necessary. Also, it gives me an out because I can always tell people, "I have a clean shirt in the diaper bag/car" if somebody expresses concern. I really doubt that a stranger would pry that much. If they do, then you can ignore them or simply walk away. I have gotten really good and smiling and nodding or pretending that I didn't hear what they were saying. I always have a pair of shoes in the car so that I can put them in my purse or carry them if we are going somewhere that requires shoes. If anybody says anything or looks twice, I can point to the shoes sticking out of the bag. : -)

>>>I can see the effects of my anger is to give a powerful message about her not being acceptable / worthy, and that she'd better do what I expect and do it before I get angry (i.e., anticipate what might bother me and do what will please me). That, I can now see, is what I experienced as a child, and I continue to go on trying to anticipate and meet expectations and avoid judgement, even though I very much have chosen my own path, it's something I struggle with a lot. I really don't want to give dd this message, I want to raise her fully free and loved, unlike how I was raised. argh!<<<

You cannot avoid judgment. Even mainstream parents that use coercive techniques to get their children to comply are judged. As a parent, you will constantly be judged by everyone around you no matter what path you have chosen. There will always be somebody that disagrees with what you are doing no matter what your choices are. I don't think that it is possible to be truly free. Instead of putting that kind of pressure on my child, we avoid places that require them to act beyond their years. If we do go, then we always build in a back up plan. For example, I will only take all 4 kids shopping if I have another adult with me because I never know when my 20 month old or 3 year old will get tired and want to run. When that happens, the other adult can take the kids to the car so they can snack and play in the car. We don't take the two little ones to restaurants or any other place where people will expect them to behave or be quiet. I can take my older two (6 &9) pretty much anywhere because we talk about the behavioral expectations beforehand. When we went to see my dad in a play, they knew that they had to dress a certain way and behave a certain way at the theater. If they did not want to dress appropriately or be courteous, then they would have had the option of not going. If visiting family members is too stressful for you or your child, then don't do it. Give yourself permission to say yes to your child and no to the rest of the world.

Connie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lovejoy

-----Original Message-----
From: cathy_jerad_adela <livinglovingchrist@...>

>>>>Any encouraging comments about how to overcome wanting to meet others'
expectations, or let go of childhood messages, would be great.<<<<<




Provide the childhood *you* never had. Be the mom you wished you'd had.


Think: Whose opinion is more important to me? My child's or the other person's?


Before you react, STOP. Think of more than one reaction. Choose the better one.




~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M

I know exactly how you feel. I bullied and bribed, yelled and cried to get my kids to prove to others that "I" was a good mom. The issue was that I really didn't (and sometimes still don't) believe that I was was good enough.
I never wanted my kids to ever worry about what others thought. I didn't know how I could stop worrying about other's opinions, and so I passed on those feelings of not being good enough and trying to be perfect to them. We are all slowly learning to stand up for ourselves and our principles.
In our case it took a huge family problem to give my husband and I the kick in the pants we needed to stop living for others and to start living for ourselves and our kids. We resolved to stop pretending and start being upfront with people. If they didn't like it they didn't have to be around us. I still have one or two family members who think grades are the only things that matter in life. (One of them in particular thinks Facebook and online banking will ruin you life forever.) I just say if you don't want to listen to what I have to say about whatever we're talking about (usually unschooling) then go look it up yourself or zip it!
My case is drastic as we don't speak to half the family anymore over preferential and racist behaviour. But the result of dealing with that is that we won't allow people's judgement to affect us anymore.

Sorry that was a bit long and probably confusing. That's just how we came to not care about what other people think of our family. :)
Marissa

[email protected]

Encouraging messages? Hmm. . . keep on caring less about what the relatives think.

And now you can worry about what happens when you raise this lovely child to think for herself and she declares that she doesn't want to go visit mean Gramma. That's not a bad time really -- it's a good time for you to tell Gramma she brought it on herself by being too rigid. And maybe she will lighten up. Or not.

At any rate, keep on moving in the direction of being comfortable with your own choices and those of your daughter, no matter what Gramma and the neighbors think. It really is a fun way to live. :)

Nance



--- In [email protected], "cathy_jerad_adela" <livinglovingchrist@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks to those that replied about handling anger better. Using humour is such a great idea, as is letting go the control more.
>
> I can see that most times I get angry or try to coerce dd (3 y.o.) is related to fearing others' judgements of me. This afternoon she started falling asleep in the car at 4pm (which made perfect sense for her) but I got angry about it because I arranged for us to drive to visit relatives tomorrow and I fear what they would think of me (as a parent and a person) if we are both exhausted from staying up late (which tends to happen if she naps in the afternoon). I sometimes try to coerce her to wear a clean shirt or put on shoes, simply because of what others might think, when I honestly don't think it's important and I trust her to do what she needs to now.
>
> I can see the effects of my anger is to give a powerful message about her not being acceptable / worthy, and that she'd better do what I expect and do it before I get angry (i.e., anticipate what might bother me and do what will please me). That, I can now see, is what I experienced as a child, and I continue to go on trying to anticipate and meet expectations and avoid judgement, even though I very much have chosen my own path, it's something I struggle with a lot. I really don't want to give dd this message, I want to raise her fully free and loved, unlike how I was raised. argh!
>
> Anyway I'm really trying to unravel those inner messages about meeting my Mum's and others expectations. Seeing as they bind me and lead to my anger which may bind dd. grr.
>
> Any encouraging comments about how to overcome wanting to meet others' expectations, or let go of childhood messages, would be great.
>
> Thank you,
> Cathy
> dd 3
>

Joyce Fetteroll

> Any encouraging comments about how to overcome wanting to meet
> others' expectations, or let go of childhood messages, would be great.


Sandra Dodd said something recently on her AlwaysLearning list that
might help:

> Don't listen to what people are saying if their own children aren't
> extremely happy and well-adjusted. If the person who's talking to
> you is your own mother, if you have resentments and sorrows from
> childhood that are still hurting you, think twice before letting her
> tell you to treat your children as she treated you.


Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen Swanay

This whole thread reminds me of the conflict model of social influence. In
this model there are high power members and low power members. Since we are
talking about families, we'd say that traditionally, the parents are the
high power members and the children are the low power members, regardless of
age. A high power member is someone who has the capacity to have
considerable influence on another's outcomes. A low power member has very
little influence on another's outcomes.

More than this, high power members (keep in mind here your {the rhetorical
you} relationships with your kids and parents etc..) have lives that seem
generally very good. Everything seems to go well, every problem is easily
solved and everyone seems to like and appreciate them. High power members
do not deal well or benevolently when this is disrupted by a low power
member. (Hence why grandmothers don't like it when their children don't
parent their grandkids the way they think it should be done.) When low
power members express dissatisfaction, high power members attempt to protect
their superior power by rejecting demands for change and being uninterested
in learning about the intentions and plans of low power members, being
inattentive to the communications of the low power person and being
unresponsive to cooperative gestures by the low power members. They usually
are hard to move toward cooperation, conciliation and compromise, and they
will largely ignore the efforts of their low power individuals to increase
cooperative problem solving. They attempt to protect their superior power
by rejecting demands for change. High power individuals tend to be more
angered by a lower power person's harm or insult than when positions are
reversed. Aristotle said "people think it right that they should be revered
by those inferior to them." And high power persons find it particularly
vexing to be insulted or harmed by someone who should actually treat them
with deference. To them low power persons do not "know their place" and
insist on "rocking the boat" out of ignorance and spite.

Once a group member gains power, they tend to establish regulations and
norms to legitimize their position and privileges and make illegitimate any
attempt by others to change the status quo. This strategy can be defined as
the "power defines justice" strategy or the "might makes right" strategy.
In addition, high power members tend to make the risk of attempting to
change the power status quo so great that low power members are deterred
from trying to do so. They do so in two ways: by establishing severe
penalties for those who attempt to change the status quo and by offering low
power members a variety of benefits as long as they do not rebel. The
latter seems to be more effective. The severe penalties strategy may be
characterized as the "this-hurts-me-more-than-it-will-hurt-you"strategy or
the "if-only-you-would-behave-neither-of-us-would-go-through-this-suffering"
strategy. The benefits strategy would be bribing.

Also, the power-devaluation theory rolls in here because it posits that as a
person's power increases, they will make more attempts to influence others.
As more influence attempts are made, the person comes to believe that they
can control the lower power peoples' behavior and is the causal agent in
producing the outcomes. The performances of low power people are devalued
and the high powered person takes responsibility for any successes
associated with the work of the lower power members. Also high power
members tend to devalue low power members and this is reflected in them
being uninterested in learning about the intentions and plans of low power
members, less cooperative and more exploitative in response to the low power
members' cooperation and less likely to make concessions in negotiations.
High power members also see themselves as being entitled to a larger share
of available resources due to their superior value.

So in a traditional family we can see that parents expect kids to
"toe-the-line" and to react very badly when they do not. And while parents
can and do come up with all kinds of reasons why they have to do what they
do (ie: a spanking for not sitting quietly during dinner because they have
to learn manners) the real reason is that they are reacting to the challenge
to their authority by a member they consider lower power and less valuable
than themselves. I know when I came to this realization that this is what I
was REALLY doing to my kids and not any of the benevolent horse-pucky I was
convinced I was doing it for I had no choice but to change my behavior
because there was no way I could look into the face of my children and say
in my head "You are not worth as much as I am." It was a powerful and
painful revelation. Once I had this idea firmly in my head. I could see
how my interactions with other members of my family, my parents, in-laws
etc...were really about power and who expected what. It was much easier to
move around, and in some cases through, these issues because I knew what the
motivation was behind the conflicts even if the other person didn't.

And further, I knew that the lessons I wanted my kids to learn were not
about manners or forks, or seat belts. I wanted them to learn respect and
value and the ability to value others for who they were, and not to see
people in terms of a power value. The ONLY way that was going to happen was
to stop seeing us a members with differential power bases. Because that is
not a lesson one can learn from teaching...it has to be modeled. And I knew
I had to model it for the rest of my kids' lives, (or mine I guess) in order
for it to be an authentic message. I had to live the way I wanted the world
to work, at least for my family if not for the world at large. In the end,
it doesn't matter if the dish is put in the dishwasher...and it is NOT a
challenge to my authority (either real or imagined) if it's not put in the
dishwasher. But me coming behind them and putting it in for them cheerfully
and lovingly DOES leave a lasting impression. And that's the one I want to
leave. Not me as dictator.

YMMV
Karen
From House, MD discussing parents of a child with Autism --
Dr Allison Cameron:Is it so wrong for them to want to have a normal child?
It's normal to want to be normal.
House: Spoken like a true circle queen. See, skinny socially privileged
white people get to draw this neat little circle, and everyone inside the
circle is normal, anyone outside the circle should be beaten, broken and
reset so they can be brought into the circle. Failing that, they should be
institutionalized or worse, pitied.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

cathy_jerad_adela

Thanks, everyone who wrote again about handling anger and others' expectations. The process of writing, and some of your comments, have, I think, helped me make a mental shift that I was really struggling with (time will tell, but it feels like a change has occurred, and I haven't been much bothered in situations that were triggering me 2 days ago). The range of comments, from personal to practical to psychological, helped, thank you. They validated, reinforced and furthered my ideas, and gave me some practical ways to handle some situations. I hadn't quite clicked that I was choosing others opinions instead of dd's (I thought it was instead of my own) - she definitely comes first in most instances. More than that, I needed to hear some ways to handle it, and some clarity that judgements can't be avoided, sometimes real divisions are needed, and power play is going on. I really love letting go and allowing dd to be herself without the other pressures I was feeling.

Cathy
dd 3

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 19, 2010, at 6:36 AM, cathy_jerad_adela wrote:

> More than that, I needed to hear some ways to handle it, and some
> clarity that judgements can't be avoided, sometimes real divisions
> are needed, and power play is going on.

Can you give some specific examples. It's much easier to explain with
concrete situations as a jumping off point. The practical ideas can
illuminate the philosophy and the philosophy can illuminate the
practical ideas.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Very few people are able to recognize that they have this power and to willingly give it up. Good for your family!

Nance


--- In [email protected], Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>
> This whole thread reminds me of the conflict model of social influence. In
> this model there are high power members and low power members. Since we are
> talking about families, we'd say that traditionally, the parents are the
> high power members and the children are the low power members, regardless of
> age. A high power member is someone who has the capacity to have
> considerable influence on another's outcomes. A low power member has very
> little influence on another's outcomes.
>
> More than this, high power members (keep in mind here your {the rhetorical
> you} relationships with your kids and parents etc..) have lives that seem
> generally very good. Everything seems to go well, every problem is easily
> solved and everyone seems to like and appreciate them. High power members
> do not deal well or benevolently when this is disrupted by a low power
> member. (Hence why grandmothers don't like it when their children don't
> parent their grandkids the way they think it should be done.) When low
> power members express dissatisfaction, high power members attempt to protect
> their superior power by rejecting demands for change and being uninterested
> in learning about the intentions and plans of low power members, being
> inattentive to the communications of the low power person and being
> unresponsive to cooperative gestures by the low power members. They usually
> are hard to move toward cooperation, conciliation and compromise, and they
> will largely ignore the efforts of their low power individuals to increase
> cooperative problem solving. They attempt to protect their superior power
> by rejecting demands for change. High power individuals tend to be more
> angered by a lower power person's harm or insult than when positions are
> reversed. Aristotle said "people think it right that they should be revered
> by those inferior to them." And high power persons find it particularly
> vexing to be insulted or harmed by someone who should actually treat them
> with deference. To them low power persons do not "know their place" and
> insist on "rocking the boat" out of ignorance and spite.
>
> Once a group member gains power, they tend to establish regulations and
> norms to legitimize their position and privileges and make illegitimate any
> attempt by others to change the status quo. This strategy can be defined as
> the "power defines justice" strategy or the "might makes right" strategy.
> In addition, high power members tend to make the risk of attempting to
> change the power status quo so great that low power members are deterred
> from trying to do so. They do so in two ways: by establishing severe
> penalties for those who attempt to change the status quo and by offering low
> power members a variety of benefits as long as they do not rebel. The
> latter seems to be more effective. The severe penalties strategy may be
> characterized as the "this-hurts-me-more-than-it-will-hurt-you"strategy or
> the "if-only-you-would-behave-neither-of-us-would-go-through-this-suffering"
> strategy. The benefits strategy would be bribing.
>
> Also, the power-devaluation theory rolls in here because it posits that as a
> person's power increases, they will make more attempts to influence others.
> As more influence attempts are made, the person comes to believe that they
> can control the lower power peoples' behavior and is the causal agent in
> producing the outcomes. The performances of low power people are devalued
> and the high powered person takes responsibility for any successes
> associated with the work of the lower power members. Also high power
> members tend to devalue low power members and this is reflected in them
> being uninterested in learning about the intentions and plans of low power
> members, less cooperative and more exploitative in response to the low power
> members' cooperation and less likely to make concessions in negotiations.
> High power members also see themselves as being entitled to a larger share
> of available resources due to their superior value.
>
> So in a traditional family we can see that parents expect kids to
> "toe-the-line" and to react very badly when they do not. And while parents
> can and do come up with all kinds of reasons why they have to do what they
> do (ie: a spanking for not sitting quietly during dinner because they have
> to learn manners) the real reason is that they are reacting to the challenge
> to their authority by a member they consider lower power and less valuable
> than themselves. I know when I came to this realization that this is what I
> was REALLY doing to my kids and not any of the benevolent horse-pucky I was
> convinced I was doing it for I had no choice but to change my behavior
> because there was no way I could look into the face of my children and say
> in my head "You are not worth as much as I am." It was a powerful and
> painful revelation. Once I had this idea firmly in my head. I could see
> how my interactions with other members of my family, my parents, in-laws
> etc...were really about power and who expected what. It was much easier to
> move around, and in some cases through, these issues because I knew what the
> motivation was behind the conflicts even if the other person didn't.
>
> And further, I knew that the lessons I wanted my kids to learn were not
> about manners or forks, or seat belts. I wanted them to learn respect and
> value and the ability to value others for who they were, and not to see
> people in terms of a power value. The ONLY way that was going to happen was
> to stop seeing us a members with differential power bases. Because that is
> not a lesson one can learn from teaching...it has to be modeled. And I knew
> I had to model it for the rest of my kids' lives, (or mine I guess) in order
> for it to be an authentic message. I had to live the way I wanted the world
> to work, at least for my family if not for the world at large. In the end,
> it doesn't matter if the dish is put in the dishwasher...and it is NOT a
> challenge to my authority (either real or imagined) if it's not put in the
> dishwasher. But me coming behind them and putting it in for them cheerfully
> and lovingly DOES leave a lasting impression. And that's the one I want to
> leave. Not me as dictator.
>
> YMMV
> Karen
> From House, MD discussing parents of a child with Autism --
> Dr Allison Cameron:Is it so wrong for them to want to have a normal child?
> It's normal to want to be normal.
> House: Spoken like a true circle queen. See, skinny socially privileged
> white people get to draw this neat little circle, and everyone inside the
> circle is normal, anyone outside the circle should be beaten, broken and
> reset so they can be brought into the circle. Failing that, they should be
> institutionalized or worse, pitied.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Kathryn

--- In [email protected], Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:

-- . . . the real reason is that they are reacting to the challenge to their authority by a member they consider lower power and less valuable than themselves . . . --

The reality of what you say is a slap in the face. I LOVE the concept of unschooling (I say 'concept' because sometimes I feel I will be forever deschooling). I forever read, read, read, from Lists such as this one. Every now and then I have 'mini-slaps'. But the change (in me) doesn't seem to sustain. I really do envy those that can change their perspective for the better, and Own it.

-- . . . I had no choice but to change my behavior because there was no way I could look into the face of my children and say in my head "You are not worth as much as I am." It was a powerful and painful revelation. --

I bet! I Really do Understand unschooling, but I tend to unschool for a while, and then fall 'off the wagon' - does this make sense? The funny thing is , I fall off, am aware that I have fallen off, but take a while to get back on . . . not good.

-- And further, I knew that the lessons I wanted my kids to learn were not about manners or forks, or seat belts. I wanted them to learn respect and value and the ability to value others for who they were, and not to see people in terms of a power value. --

I see this often with my daughter and son; their actions/reactions show me that they see me as more powerful. It's a slap, but doesn't seem to be hard enough, unfortunately.

-- The ONLY way that was going to happen was to stop seeing us a members with differential power bases. Because that is not a lesson one can learn from teaching...it has to be modeled. --

LOVE it! Get it; can't seem to apply it consistently . . .

-- And I knew I had to model it for the rest of my kids' lives, (or mine I guess) in order for it to be an authentic message. I had to live the way I wanted the world to work, at least for my family if not for the world at large. In the end, it doesn't matter if the dish is put in the dishwasher...and it is NOT a challenge to my authority (either real or imagined) if it's not put in the dishwasher. But me coming behind them and putting it in for them cheerfully and lovingly DOES leave a lasting impression. And that's the one I want to leave. Not me as dictator. --

LOVE all this.

Still a long way to go . . .

KathrynD

Karen Swanay

On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 5:58 AM, Kathryn <freetobe@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> --- In [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>
> -- . . . the real reason is that they are reacting to the challenge to
> their authority by a member they consider lower power and less valuable than
> themselves . . . --
>
> The reality of what you say is a slap in the face. I LOVE the concept of
> unschooling (I say 'concept' because sometimes I feel I will be forever
> deschooling). I forever read, read, read, from Lists such as this one. Every
> now and then I have 'mini-slaps'. But the change (in me) doesn't seem to
> sustain. I really do envy those that can change their perspective for the
> better, and Own it.
>
*******************************
Well now, let me own up to the fact that this didn't happen immediately and
I'm not 100% "proofed" (dog training term for a dog that will do the thing
you want 100% of the time.) I still slip up and make mistakes. Progress is
NOT A STRAIGHT LINE! It's a curving road that sometimes has hairpin turns
and switchbacks. The important thing is to recognize when you are moving
backward and try to get going in the right direction again. Perfection
isn't anything to strive for because then it's all about the goal and not
about the journey.

Re: kids and parents and value/power. The absolute truth is that you do
have more power than your kids. It's a fact. You control the resources.
And even if you are fair with your kids, they can't own a house, drive a
car, have a credit card, or hold a job. So some of the recognizing that you
are more powerful is a societal and age thing. A construct of the culture
we live in. You can't take the blame for that. You can however, not use it
to your advantage. And there is the rub!

Don't be so hard on yourself. It's hard to undo enculturation and
conditioning. That's why they work so well in getting us all to
toe-the-line. Being willing to admit that you have made mistakes and then
try to repair those mistakes is just as important because it models
something else for your kids...that adults are not infallible and that the
good ones own their mistakes.

Karen

>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lovejoy

-----Original Message-----
From: Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>


Well now, let me own up to the fact that this didn't happen immediately and
I'm not 100% "proofed" (dog training term for a dog that will do the thing
you want 100% of the time.) I still slip up and make mistakes. Progress is
NOT A STRAIGHT LINE! It's a curving road that sometimes has hairpin turns
and switchbacks. The important thing is to recognize when you are moving
backward and try to get going in the right direction again. Perfection
isn't anything to strive for because then it's all about the goal and not
about the journey.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


You don't have to take Karen's word for it: you can go back to the archives (Oct 2007) and read her struggles. You'll find that a lot of the trusted writers here started out *just* where you are. You know you've *got* it when you can speak/write comfortably about unschooling---not that you never make mistakes, but that you really get it and can ask your children for forgiveness.


If the archives for unschoooling.com were still available, you could read my (just a few) and Ren's (a lot) struggles. Just know that, if you take baby steps every day---just small ones at first---the steps soon become leaps. Then it's second nature!




~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 20, 2010, at 6:58 AM, Kathryn wrote:

> I bet! I Really do Understand unschooling, but I tend to unschool
> for a while, and then fall 'off the wagon' - does this make sense?
> The funny thing is , I fall off, am aware that I have fallen off,
> but take a while to get back on . . . not good.

What do you gain when you fall off the wagon? What other need is being
met? You must be gaining something that's important to you otherwise
you wouldn't keep doing it.

If you can dig into that, figure out what that other goal is -- or
fear -- and why it's important, then you can work at dismantling it,
work at finding ways to see that it's not as important as some fear is
making it seem, or find other ways to meet it that don't get in the
way of your goal to unschool and build relationships with your family.

If knowledge alone were enough to let go of a need/fear/goal that was
interfering with another goal, no one would be eating to excess,
avoiding exercise, continuing to smoke, procrastinating. There's
certainly plenty of information on the benefits of not doing those.
But until someone tackles the root cause, or finds a reason that makes
the other goal way more important, they'll keep slipping back into
whatever behavior is comforting them.

An example is that some people need organization. They need a plan and
they need everyone to cooperate. That's obviously a need that will get
in the way of unschooling! The solution won't be one thing but a
combination of many actions, liking finding something else to organize
(like supplies or an unshooling group :-), like focusing on very
specific things you love about each of your kids, like reading books
that focus you on the goal your head is saying you want so your
emotions can shift to where your head is.

Sandra Dodd recommended a book that she said is like "cognitive
therapy."

Slowing Down to the Speed of Life: How to create a more peaceful,
simpler life from the inside out
Richard Carlson and Joseph Bailey

Amazon link: http://tinyurl.com/266ydp9

And someone immediately remarked about the book:

> "Even though I've heard and read this message before ("live in the
> moment", "be present", etc.), this book was able to impress upon me
> how important that advice really is. As a result, I'm a happier
> person, and my kids have a more attentive mom (I was always there
> with them, but my my mind was often spinning off in all sorts of
> directions)

It sounds like it might be well worth looking for. (There are used
hardcover copies at Amazon for a penny.)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kathryn

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:

-- What do you gain when you fall off the wagon? What other need is being met? You must be gaining something that's important to you otherwise you wouldn't keep doing it. --

Control.

If I dismantle that, then yes, my ability to be organised is where the foundation for my Need for control lies. I Do spend a lot of time with the kids, but my mind certainly is on other things, for the most part. When at home, I find it hard to drop things (although I do!) and get involved in the kids' activites. To combat this, I remove myself from the home a LOT. Lots of outings, so I am both physically and mentally removed from 'tempation' - to do the dishes, vacuum, etc. This works to everyones benefit. My house is a mess . . . to my standards, anyway. Unschooling helped me a looong time ago to shift my perspective on the value of household duties, and I undertake it happily. But it's still there!

Deeper that the actual 'doing' of stuff, I have this constant internal chatter about how much I need to 'be' with the kids; truly present, for unschooling to really reach that level of 'success'. There are moments when I am truly 'with' them. It's like meditation; when you are aware you are 'doing it', you're out if it! I literally tell myself, 'be present, be present'. It all kinda feels false/forced?


-- If knowledge alone were enough to let go of a need/fear/goal that was interfering with another goal, no one would be eating to excess,
avoiding exercise, continuing to smoke, procrastinating. There's certainly plenty of information on the benefits of not doing those. --

I like this - I do tend to get frustrated with myself. I often think, if I have the knowledge, then what's the problem? Application should be easy, if you have a sound understanding of the 'why'. I have such a sense of urgency to 'get it right', because they are only little for such a short time.

-- Sandra Dodd recommended a book that she said is like "cognitive
therapy."

Slowing Down to the Speed of Life: How to create a more peaceful,
simpler life from the inside out Richard Carlson and Joseph Bailey

Amazon link: http://tinyurl.com/266ydp9

And someone immediately remarked about the book:

"Even though I've heard and read this message before ("live in the
moment", "be present", etc.), this book was able to impress upon me
how important that advice really is. As a result, I'm a happier person, and my kids have a more attentive mom (I was always there
with them, but my my mind was often spinning off in all sorts of
directions)

It sounds like it might be well worth looking for. (There are used
hardcover copies at Amazon for a penny.)--

Wow. That book sounds perfect. Thanks for the recommendation. I need to chill out with it all, and I just feel too bloody militant in the mind. Militant and unschooling - two terms that just don't work well together!

KathrynD