[email protected]

Hi Connie,

Thanks for answering my question. It was helpful to hear how your family handles things. I just need to get over that feeling that it is something we "should" be doing together as a family. I like the idea of exposing them to various religious/spiritual material. I will keep going and keep inviting without quilting and maybe someday they will want to come with me.

Amy C.


5a.

Re: a little of topic - please e-mail me off list!

Posted by: "otherstar" otherstar@... casouthworth

Sun May 9, 2010 7:40 pm (PDT)



In our house, my husband is the one that goes to church and I am the one that doesn't do church. My husband was even a Benedictine monk for a while. He grew up in a very religious family that insisted on going to church no matter what. My husband's parents were crushed when he left the monastery because having a monk/cleric in the family is so highly regarded to them. It is so ingrained in my husband that he still prays the divine office several times a day. Our girls see him praying and reading and can ask about it at any time. We talk a lot about church and religion when the kids are around. We share our experiences with our kids and with each other.

As a result, when my husband wants to go to church, he invites the kids to go along. If they want to go, they go. If they don't want to go, they stay home with me. There was a period of time where we tried to go as a family but that was too stressful for me and for the kids that couldn't sit still. Even with a cry room, it was too stressful because I felt like people were watching me and the kids and were scrutinizing our every move. I found myself hating church and losing my own sense of spirituality. When the little ones (3 & 16 months) get bigger, we may try to go as a family again but it won't be a big deal if somebody doesn't want to.

My 5 year old will sometimes ask to go to church and my husband will take her. My 8 year old has no interest in going to church but she likes to pray and talk about God. My girls also love the Veggie Tales movies.

We have applied strewing to religion just like we do everything else. We have all kinds of religious icons (crosses, Indian art, Buddha's, etc.) through out our house. We also have a variety of books about religion and spirituality. Whenever we are at a book store or thrift store, we pick up books about religion and spirituality. We found one the other day about atheist spirituality. The point is that you can force a kid to go to church but that won't make them spiritual or even religious. Some kids grow up being forced to go to church their whole lives and still reject religion when they get older. Some kids never go to church but grow up to be very religious people. I try to expose my kids to a little bit of everything so that they can make up their own minds.

Connie







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Erica

My DH is a seminary student. We live in a VERY conservative town where up until just last year, they couldn't even sell alcohol in restaurants on Sundays (seriously, I can't make this up). This place becomes a ghost town on Sunday mornings because *everyone* is at some kind of service. Talk about feeling the pressure to conform!

After DS was born back in November, I realized very quickly that it was no longer realistic (or of much value) to battle to get myself, both DD and the DS ready by myself to go on Sunday mornings and actually be in a position to receive anything by the time I got to church on Sunday mornings! This was hard for me to accept, but after spending some time in thought, prayer and discussion, I realized I simply had to change what Sunday mornings were going to look like for us.

"Church" and "worship" for one family don't necessarily have to look like what we have come to expect them to be to still be gratifying and life giving. I'm the first to admit that it is HARD to let go of the guilt that can come from not being in a church on Sunday morning, or any other time for that matter, however isn't that a big part of what unschooling is really about? Letting go of the guilt that comes with attempting to conform to societal standards and simply attempting, instead, to live the best life for your family, however that may look? :o)

Hope this makes sense!

Erica

--- In [email protected], AECANGORA@... wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Connie,
>
> Thanks for answering my question. It was helpful to hear how your family handles things. I just need to get over that feeling that it is something we "should" be doing together as a family. I like the idea of exposing them to various religious/spiritual material. I will keep going and keep inviting without quilting and maybe someday they will want to come with me.
>
> Amy C.
>
>
> 5a.
>
> Re: a little of topic - please e-mail me off list!
>
> Posted by: "otherstar" otherstar@... casouthworth
>
> Sun May 9, 2010 7:40 pm (PDT)
>
>
>
> In our house, my husband is the one that goes to church and I am the one that doesn't do church. My husband was even a Benedictine monk for a while. He grew up in a very religious family that insisted on going to church no matter what. My husband's parents were crushed when he left the monastery because having a monk/cleric in the family is so highly regarded to them. It is so ingrained in my husband that he still prays the divine office several times a day. Our girls see him praying and reading and can ask about it at any time. We talk a lot about church and religion when the kids are around. We share our experiences with our kids and with each other.
>
> As a result, when my husband wants to go to church, he invites the kids to go along. If they want to go, they go. If they don't want to go, they stay home with me. There was a period of time where we tried to go as a family but that was too stressful for me and for the kids that couldn't sit still. Even with a cry room, it was too stressful because I felt like people were watching me and the kids and were scrutinizing our every move. I found myself hating church and losing my own sense of spirituality. When the little ones (3 & 16 months) get bigger, we may try to go as a family again but it won't be a big deal if somebody doesn't want to.
>
> My 5 year old will sometimes ask to go to church and my husband will take her. My 8 year old has no interest in going to church but she likes to pray and talk about God. My girls also love the Veggie Tales movies.
>
> We have applied strewing to religion just like we do everything else. We have all kinds of religious icons (crosses, Indian art, Buddha's, etc.) through out our house. We also have a variety of books about religion and spirituality. Whenever we are at a book store or thrift store, we pick up books about religion and spirituality. We found one the other day about atheist spirituality. The point is that you can force a kid to go to church but that won't make them spiritual or even religious. Some kids grow up being forced to go to church their whole lives and still reject religion when they get older. Some kids never go to church but grow up to be very religious people. I try to expose my kids to a little bit of everything so that they can make up their own minds.
>
> Connie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

otherstar

>>>>Thanks for answering my question. It was helpful to hear how your family handles things. I just need to get over that feeling that it is something we "should" be doing together as a family. I like the idea of exposing them to various religious/spiritual material. I will keep going and keep inviting without quilting and maybe someday they will want to come with me.<<<<<

If they see you going and enjoying it, that will increase the likelihood of them wanting to go. If they see you grousing about going, then they won't be as likely to go. If you go because you truly love going, your kids will view it positively. If you are going out of a sense of obligation to your parents or somebody else, then your kids will pick up on that too.

My husband's parents would ask him about his/our church attendance on a weekly basis until just recently. My husband hated talking to his parents because he was a married adult with children and was still being asked whether or not he had attended church. My husband says that he is tempted to leave his church but he knows that it would devastate his parents. Luckily, they have quit asking about it and have quit nagging us about having our two youngest children baptized. That has been a huge burden for him to carry. It has also tainted my views of his religion. I don't want my kids to have a tainted view of religion or spirituality so I have to try really hard to be positive and present things in a positive light. We do talk about why dad goes to church and mom doesn't.

I have always been of the opinion that religion/spirituality should not be confined to the hours that are spent in a church or involved in church activities. It is so much more all encompassing than that. If religion/spirituality are part of your everyday life, kids will naturally pick up on it and it will be something that is done as a family. Actually going to church is just one small part of the larger equation. If you are not comfortable having literature and information from other religions in your house, then find materials that relate directly to your religion to strew around the house.

Connie



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

amy_aec

Erica,

Thank you for your response. It was very helpful. The thing I am most worried about is them missing out on the Sunday school experience. I found it so meaningful growing up. But, I know my brother hated it. And, when we did go, my 9 yr. old did struggle. She found it too confining and she doesn't enjoy doing educational crafts. I realize that they can learn what it means to be a Christian from me, but I am not always a good example, so it would be nice for them to have other examples as well. I guess I will just have to trust that other mentors (probably of their choosing)will come into their lives.

Amy C.

--- In [email protected], "Erica" <eguthaus@...> wrote:

> "Church" and "worship" for one family don't necessarily have to look like what we have come to expect them to be to still be gratifying and life giving. I'm the first to admit that it is HARD to let go of the guilt that can come from not being in a church on Sunday morning, or any other time for that matter, however isn't that a big part of what unschooling is really about? Letting go of the guilt that comes with attempting to conform to societal standards and simply attempting, instead, to live the best life for your family, however that may look? :o)
>
> Hope this makes sense!
>
> Erica
>

amy_aec

--- In [email protected], "otherstar" <otherstar@...> wrote:

>>> If they see you going and enjoying it, that will increase the likelihood of them wanting to go. If they see you grousing about going, then they won't be as likely to go. If you go because you truly love going, your kids will view it positively. If you are going out of a sense of obligation to your parents or somebody else, then your kids will pick up on that too. >>>>

Yes, this is true. Attitude is important. I do truly want to go, so it isn't an issue of me doing something out of obligation. It is hard for me to go occasionally and not get really involved, since this is my natural inclination. But, the more I get involved the more it takes me away from my family, and that feels wrong as well.


>>> I have always been of the opinion that religion/spirituality should not be confined to the hours that are spent in a church or involved in church activities. It is so much more all encompassing than that. If religion/spirituality are part of your everyday life, kids will naturally pick up on it and it will be something that is done as a family. Actually going to church is just one small part of the larger equation. If you are not comfortable having literature and information from other religions in your house, then find materials that relate directly to your religion to strew around the house.
> Connie>>>>

Yes, I agree. There is a lot more to spirituality than going to church, and, for the time being, while my kids are young, I may have to let go of regular church altogether. I have a great book, The Seven Laws or Spiritual Success for Parents, by Depak Chopra. The ideas expressed are universal to all religions and there are suggestions for integrating these "laws" into everyday life with children. So, I can just start focusing on that, and we could do something fun and meaningful on Sundays together with me going occasionally when the rest of the family just wants to hang out at home.

Amy c.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[email protected]

On May 16, 2010 6:58am, amy_aec <AECANGORA@...> wrote:

> >>> If they see you going and enjoying it, that will increase the
> likelihood of them wanting to go. If they see you grousing about going,
> then they won't be as likely to go. If you go because you truly love
> going, your kids will view it positively. If you are going out of a sense
> of obligation to your parents or somebody else, then your kids will pick
> up on that too. >>>>



> Yes, this is true. Attitude is important. I do truly want to go, so it
> isn't an issue of me doing something out of obligation.


......am I confused? You're NOT going out of obligation, though you suspect
your husband does (because he knows its important to YOU) and you'd like
your children to go for the same reason (it's important to YOU)?
Go for YOU. YOU alone. You can, really, with a happy heart! You can choose
to come home and share the JOY that church fills you with! You can come
home energized, LIVING the word, SHOWING your family how much you
appreciate their (at home even) support for you to do what is important to
YOU.






> It is hard for me to go occasionally and not get really involved, since
> this is my natural inclination. But, the more I get involved the more it
> takes me away from my family, and that feels wrong as well.



so what if it's hard. Don't do what doesn't work for your FAMILY. The
church (as a whole) will still be there when your kids don't need you so
much. Those volunteer opportunities will STILL be there when YOUR kids
don't need you so much. You CAN go there for what you NEED and that is all.
If there are other, uncomfortable obligations: Get a new church.





> >>> I have always been of the opinion that religion/spirituality should
> not be confined to the hours that are spent in a church or involved in
> church activities. It is so much more all encompassing than that. If
> religion/spirituality are part of your everyday life, kids will naturally
> pick up on it and it will be something that is done as a family. Actually
> going to church is just one small part of the larger equation. If you are
> not comfortable having literature and information from other religions in
> your house, then find materials that relate directly to your religion to
> strew around the house.

> >



> Yes, I agree. There is a lot more to spirituality than going to church,
> and, for the time being, while my kids are young, I may have to let go of
> regular church altogether. I have a great book, The Seven Laws or
> Spiritual Success for Parents, by Depak Chopra. The ideas expressed are
> universal to all religions and there are suggestions for integrating
> these "laws" into everyday life with children. So, I can just start
> focusing on that, and we could do something fun and meaningful on Sundays
> together with me going occasionally when the rest of the family just
> wants to hang out at home.


You mention on another post about choosing between family and faith.
OUCHIE! Do. Not. Put. This. On. Your. Kids!
Your faith is YOURS, you carry it with your everywhere (or not...) It's not
in a building or residing with a group of people-who-are-not-you. Your
faith is not separate from you, nor your family. Nor is anyone else on this
planet responsible for your faith.
You are facing the choice of leaving your family (or finding a way to make
them go with you) to worship in an *out there* place -or- one of a
gazillion other options for creating sacred space and worshiping *in here*
where YOU are. For now. Kids grow. People change.

Create a sanctuary in the back yard. An altar in the hall closet! Meditate
in the living room! Have coffee with the sun! Invite another early bird for
sunrise coffee and chat on Sunday (or Tuesday!) mornings! Listen to your
favorite church talker while you take a walk or do the laundry or something
normal you're already doing -- most religions have mp3s available!

You can choose your family JOYFULLY! *&* feel spiritually recharged. (9 out
of 10 demigods agree ;))

~diana


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "amy_aec" <AECANGORA@...> wrote:
>I guess I will just have to trust that other mentors (probably of their choosing)will come into their lives.
**************

And possibly not during "childhood". Its not uncommon for people in their teens and twenties to go through a pretty intense period of interest in spirituality and their relationship to the universe - even people who weren't much interested in religion and spirituality as children. Religious "education" is like any other kind of education in the sense that, by having a generic "scope and sequence" it can really "miss" a whole set of "students" who aren't ready for the information yet, or who learn by a different means entirely.

---Meredith

amy_aec

Wow! Talk about hitting someone over the head with their own garbage;-)!!!!!!! I really needed that. You are so right. That's what attracts me to the Quakers in the first place. Their focus is on the Truth that is in your own heart and sharing that with others. Not on dogma, creeds, externals, etc. I do enjoy going and go when I can. I just get caught up in feeling guilty for leaving my family at home, even when they are perfectly happy to hang out there.

Just to clarify - My husband doesn't go at all. I pretty much gave up on that completely last year. My oldest (9) doesn't want to go anywhere right now. And, my youngest (7) likes a United Church of Christ church we have gone to on occasion. It is just a little further (40 mins.) than I would like to have to go on a Sunday. (We moved a year ago and live in nowhere land.) The Quaker meeting is only 20 mins. away. I probably will split my time between the 2 since the younger one does like to go some. (The Quaker meeting currently has no other children and therefore no First Day (Sunday) school.

The reason I have a hard time letting go of feeling like I need to choose a church and be committed, is that I've been on the other side of the fence. I have seen my parents struggle with uncommitted church members and infrequent Sunday school attendance in their ministry, and as a former Sunday school teacher and superintendent I've dealt with it myself. It's very hard to plan things when folks are not consistent. So, I guess I feel like I need to choose one place and stick with it, or maybe not go at all for now.

I know I sound conflicted! I'm really trying to sort it all out and do what is best for all of us!

Amy C.

--- In [email protected], hahamommy@... wrote:
>
> On May 16, 2010 6:58am, amy_aec <AECANGORA@...> wrote:
>
> > >>> If they see you going and enjoying it, that will increase the
> > likelihood of them wanting to go. If they see you grousing about going,
> > then they won't be as likely to go. If you go because you truly love
> > going, your kids will view it positively. If you are going out of a sense
> > of obligation to your parents or somebody else, then your kids will pick
> > up on that too. >>>>
>
>
>
> > Yes, this is true. Attitude is important. I do truly want to go, so it
> > isn't an issue of me doing something out of obligation.
>
>
> ......am I confused? You're NOT going out of obligation, though you suspect
> your husband does (because he knows its important to YOU) and you'd like
> your children to go for the same reason (it's important to YOU)?
> Go for YOU. YOU alone. You can, really, with a happy heart! You can choose
> to come home and share the JOY that church fills you with! You can come
> home energized, LIVING the word, SHOWING your family how much you
> appreciate their (at home even) support for you to do what is important to
> YOU.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > It is hard for me to go occasionally and not get really involved, since
> > this is my natural inclination. But, the more I get involved the more it
> > takes me away from my family, and that feels wrong as well.
>
>
>
> so what if it's hard. Don't do what doesn't work for your FAMILY. The
> church (as a whole) will still be there when your kids don't need you so
> much. Those volunteer opportunities will STILL be there when YOUR kids
> don't need you so much. You CAN go there for what you NEED and that is all.
> If there are other, uncomfortable obligations: Get a new church.
>
>
>
>
>
> > >>> I have always been of the opinion that religion/spirituality should
> > not be confined to the hours that are spent in a church or involved in
> > church activities. It is so much more all encompassing than that. If
> > religion/spirituality are part of your everyday life, kids will naturally
> > pick up on it and it will be something that is done as a family. Actually
> > going to church is just one small part of the larger equation. If you are
> > not comfortable having literature and information from other religions in
> > your house, then find materials that relate directly to your religion to
> > strew around the house.
>
> > >
>
>
>
> > Yes, I agree. There is a lot more to spirituality than going to church,
> > and, for the time being, while my kids are young, I may have to let go of
> > regular church altogether. I have a great book, The Seven Laws or
> > Spiritual Success for Parents, by Depak Chopra. The ideas expressed are
> > universal to all religions and there are suggestions for integrating
> > these "laws" into everyday life with children. So, I can just start
> > focusing on that, and we could do something fun and meaningful on Sundays
> > together with me going occasionally when the rest of the family just
> > wants to hang out at home.
>
>
> You mention on another post about choosing between family and faith.
> OUCHIE! Do. Not. Put. This. On. Your. Kids!
> Your faith is YOURS, you carry it with your everywhere (or not...) It's not
> in a building or residing with a group of people-who-are-not-you. Your
> faith is not separate from you, nor your family. Nor is anyone else on this
> planet responsible for your faith.
> You are facing the choice of leaving your family (or finding a way to make
> them go with you) to worship in an *out there* place -or- one of a
> gazillion other options for creating sacred space and worshiping *in here*
> where YOU are. For now. Kids grow. People change.
>
> Create a sanctuary in the back yard. An altar in the hall closet! Meditate
> in the living room! Have coffee with the sun! Invite another early bird for
> sunrise coffee and chat on Sunday (or Tuesday!) mornings! Listen to your
> favorite church talker while you take a walk or do the laundry or something
> normal you're already doing -- most religions have mp3s available!
>
> You can choose your family JOYFULLY! *&* feel spiritually recharged. (9 out
> of 10 demigods agree ;))
>
> ~diana
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

amy_aec

Great Point, Meredith! Thanks! I'll just keep doing my thing and be ready to answer questions or provide experiences when they are ready!\

I like the idea of strewing too! I'll have to see what resources I have and maybe get some more.

Amy C.

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "amy_aec" <AECANGORA@> wrote:
> >I guess I will just have to trust that other mentors (probably of their choosing)will come into their lives.
> **************
>
> And possibly not during "childhood". Its not uncommon for people in their teens and twenties to go through a pretty intense period of interest in spirituality and their relationship to the universe - even people who weren't much interested in religion and spirituality as children. Religious "education" is like any other kind of education in the sense that, by having a generic "scope and sequence" it can really "miss" a whole set of "students" who aren't ready for the information yet, or who learn by a different means entirely.
>
> ---Meredith
>

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "amy_aec" <AECANGORA@...> wrote:
>I have seen my parents struggle with uncommitted church members and infrequent Sunday school attendance in their ministry, and as a former Sunday school teacher and superintendent I've dealt with it myself. It's very hard to plan things when folks are not consistent.
***************

This is getting off topic, but as someone who has taught interest-based classes its really *not* all that hard to plan for spotty attendance if you know to expect exactly that - if the teacher is unable to build up sufficient interest or plan for uneven attendance that's the teacher's issue - its not the fault or responsibility of the students to meet the teachers needs.

Teachers depend on students but students don't depend on teachers. One of the saddest things about compulsory education is that it undermines students' and teachers' undertstanding of that basic fact.

---Meredith

N CONFER

And, in general, more and more people are losing interest in any sort of religion -- organized or otherwise. Some of us consider that a good thing. At any rate, the kids just may not see the same value the parent does. Which is OK.

Nance



--- On Mon, 5/17/10, plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:

From: plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Going to church!
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 11:14 AM







 









--- In [email protected], "amy_aec" <AECANGORA@...> wrote:

>I have seen my parents struggle with uncommitted church members and infrequent Sunday school attendance in their ministry, and as a former Sunday school teacher and superintendent I've dealt with it myself. It's very hard to plan things when folks are not consistent.

***************



This is getting off topic, but as someone who has taught interest-based classes its really *not* all that hard to plan for spotty attendance if you know to expect exactly that - if the teacher is unable to build up sufficient interest or plan for uneven attendance that's the teacher's issue - its not the fault or responsibility of the students to meet the teachers needs.



Teachers depend on students but students don't depend on teachers. One of the saddest things about compulsory education is that it undermines students' and teachers' undertstanding of that basic fact.



---Meredith






















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 16, 2010, at 8:46 PM, amy_aec wrote:

> I've been on the other side of the fence. I have seen my parents
> struggle with uncommitted church members and infrequent Sunday
> school attendance in their ministry, and as a former Sunday school
> teacher and superintendent I've dealt with it myself. It's very hard
> to plan things when folks are not consistent.

That's a reality churches need to face. While people may understand
the value in regular attendance, and it may inspire some (of a certain
personality type) to commit, any time it feels like there's a certain
way to do something right and people can't, what they can do feels
less valuable so they decide not to do it at all. Part of it's a need
for a method or a right pathway -- like school! :-) -- to achieve a
goal. Those who cling to the idea that people need to warp themselves
to the church's needs are destined to keep people away.

The best way to get people to come is to offer something they feel
they need that's worth giving up their time for. (Easy to say, of
course! ;-)

Or to tell people their immortal soul's in danger if they don't come ;-)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Rossing

I've taught Bible classes for years and I've had everything from no one
showing up to suddenly having both my class and another class in one
room because another teacher fell ill suddenly and having a dozen kids
from 4 to 12 in one room to having the person with all the visuals not
show up and coming up with something to do for a mixed age group in
under 15 minutes (-always- have a sharpie on hand - I did the entire
story of Ruth and Boaz by drawing little faces on my fingers and then
telling the story using my 'finger puppets' - caveat: make sure that as
people leave or die, you won't end up with a "vulgar" hand gesture
lol!). So, yes, it is VERY doable - particularly if you bring an
unschooling outlook to the class preparation. Seriously, if I was tied
to a boxed curriculum with X number of worksheets, having extra kids
show up would be a problem and having less kids show up would leave lots
of 'waste' paper. Playing games is one area that's sometimes difficult -
but less so if I (the adult/teacher) am willing to play too - if I'm
playing, we've got at least two players and off we go. There have even
been days when I've read the text for the lesson, discussed it a little
bit to help with new words if necessary or summarize a concept or
whatever and then I just pull out craft supplies or small jigsaw puzzles
and we have a play day. Sometimes those end up being the richest times.
I realized early on that in most cases, the kids themselves have very
little control over whether they are there or not (your kids, Amy, are
in a different position than that and that's great!) If mom/dad decide
not to come one week, the kids can't get there on their own (most of the
time). If parents are divorced, custody arrangements may mean that some
kids are only there every other week and not at all during the summer.
Again, not something the kids have a lot of say about. I make it MY
responsibility to be prepared for anything that comes up, it's not their
responsibility.

Deb R


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