Amanda Mayan

Not sure how to handle this..hoping for suggestions.

My husband and I drink a bit of alcohol..we share a glass of wine or a
bottle of beer during dinner.or he'll have a vodka and cranberry when he
comes home from work.

We don't drink every single night, but alcohol is definitely a presence in
our house.

Our 3 year old likes to drink with us.

I don't want to make it an "issue" that she focuses on.or make it into a
desirable forbidden.I also think that telling her "it's for adults" could
lead to problems.

I'm particularly keyed into this issue because I grew up with a mostly sober
(though with rare relapses every decade or so) father

When we have a drink and she asks for it, I always offer her juice or water
instead, so she has options. many times she'll say she wants "just a sip"
and then chug.

I'm totally not comfortable with this, but totally not sure how to handle
it.

I've explained to her that it could make her feel funny, or make her tummy
hurt and little people can have little amounts only

I've tried fancy sodas in bottles, so she has a "special" drink too.she
really likes the alcohol (particularly mikes hard lemonade, which doesn't
even taste like alcohol!).

Do we just not have it around? I try to put it into opaque glasses when I
can.but my husband is not so good about remembering

Any other ideas?



Also, as a side note, my husband, who grew up in another country and was
given sips of an ouzo like drink when he had belly aches as a child,
specifically remembers lying about tummy aches as a young child to get the
sips.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Amanda Mayan" <amanda@...> wrote:
>> When we have a drink and she asks for it, I always offer her juice or water
> instead, so she has options. many times she'll say she wants "just a sip"
> and then chug.

What about making a wine-and-water mix and pouring her a glass for herself? Or beer or vodka and cranberry for that matter, whatever y'all are having, drop a little in a cup of water for her. If you're using nice glasses, give her a fancy glass too - that's sometimes part of the appeal, and you can find plastic stemware at party shops if breakage is a concern.

If your husband especially likes the hard lemonade, have some regular lemonade around and use that as the "mixer". For the vodka and cranberry, mix it heavy on the juice with a tiny dribble of vodka. Make it normal, not something she has to even ask for, the same way you'd offer her some of what you're eating for dinner. Its perfectly common to modify food for kids - less sauce, less pepper, whatever.

> Also, as a side note, my husband, who grew up in another country and was
> given sips of an ouzo like drink when he had belly aches as a child,
> specifically remembers lying about tummy aches as a young child to get the
> sips.

Kids often want to do what adults are doing, and while many kids don't like the taste of alcohol, some don't mind the strong flavor. If something is restricted, "adults only" except for special circumstances, then its natural for kids to be sneaky and dishonest. That's not a matter of alcohol, specifically - is that your fear? That she's predisposed to drink and this is some kind of "evidence"? I have alcoholism in both sets of grandparents, so my brother and I are arguably predisposed toward alcoholism, and yet he drinks moderately and I sparingly. We had watered down drinks and it was never really questioned that we would want to do what the grown-ups were doing, just that body size and weight was a consideration.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

Adam Dealan-de

Alot of cultures, giving a little wine to children is okay. I think we
unschoolers can fail to be too permissive. It is okay to have limits
with reason. Otherwise this can lead to abuse. So I would suggest
letting your child know why drinking adult drinks is not appropriate for
children and then enforcing this. Kindness and firmness. We give our
little ones baby wine..there on special drink which is water with a drop
of wine for color and effect. This has worked well. Limits are fine
and sometimes they need enforcing.

Adam Dealan-de

On 5/9/2010 6:14 AM, Amanda Mayan wrote:
>
> Not sure how to handle this..hoping for suggestions.
>
> My husband and I drink a bit of alcohol..we share a glass of wine or a
> bottle of beer during dinner.or he'll have a vodka and cranberry when he
> comes home from work.
>
> We don't drink every single night, but alcohol is definitely a presence in
> our house.
>
> Our 3 year old likes to drink with us.
>
> I don't want to make it an "issue" that she focuses on.or make it into a
> desirable forbidden.I also think that telling her "it's for adults" could
> lead to problems.
>
> I'm particularly keyed into this issue because I grew up with a mostly
> sober
> (though with rare relapses every decade or so) father
>
> When we have a drink and she asks for it, I always offer her juice or
> water
> instead, so she has options. many times she'll say she wants "just a sip"
> and then chug.
>
> I'm totally not comfortable with this, but totally not sure how to handle
> it.
>
> I've explained to her that it could make her feel funny, or make her tummy
> hurt and little people can have little amounts only
>
> I've tried fancy sodas in bottles, so she has a "special" drink too.she
> really likes the alcohol (particularly mikes hard lemonade, which doesn't
> even taste like alcohol!).
>
> Do we just not have it around? I try to put it into opaque glasses when I
> can.but my husband is not so good about remembering
>
> Any other ideas?
>
> Also, as a side note, my husband, who grew up in another country and was
> given sips of an ouzo like drink when he had belly aches as a child,
> specifically remembers lying about tummy aches as a young child to get the
> sips.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 9, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Amanda Mayan wrote:
> Also, as a side note, my husband, who grew up in another country and
> was
> given sips of an ouzo like drink when he had belly aches as a child,
> specifically remembers lying about tummy aches as a young child to
> get the
> sips.

That might not be a side note! It might be genetic. Maybe the alcohol
tastes different to them, has a more kid appealing taste to them than
to most people. I assume your husband has turned out okay :-)

First, there's way too much focus in this society on the fear that
alcohol must be the cause of alcoholism so if you're having those
thoughts, the Rat Park study Schuyler often posts when addiction comes
up is something to check out:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/message/37831

Second, obviously she has a low body mass and it will take less
alcohol to affect her than an adult. But -- and this is just a guess,
based on personal experience as a kid -- I would bet she would stop
once she started feeling odd. Odd would feel like enough. In a
slightly related example, despite my daughter's love of brownies, I've
seen her several times leave half a bite on a plate. Half a bite!
Despite how good they taste, despite the fact we don't have them very
often, she doesn't feel the need to eat more than she wants.

Third, alcohol was present in my childhood, though not huge. My
parents let us have sips of mixed drinks and beer whenever we asked,
brandy (a tablespoon or two) when we came in from skiing when it was
very cold. More significantly, when we went to my grandmother's for
Sunday dinner, my aunt always served wine or very strong alcoholic
drinks directly to us with dinner. I don't remember ever finishing
one. Sometimes I'd just have a sip. As an adult, I don't think I've
had more than 3 bottles of wine a year.

I had the same attitude toward alcohol with my daughter. With the same
results. The last two times I've poured my daughter a wine she likes,
I've had to pour most of it back. There's only once that I found she'd
had a glass of wine while she was up late at night. She's 18.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thomas & Debra

When we are having drinks, DD get her own "virgin" version if we have
something comparable. If you're having vodka and cranberry, she could have
just the cranberry. We have hurricanes every once in a while. The mixer
for it is no different than Kool-aid. Then DH puts a little apple juice in
it so it's still a mixed drink and looks like a hurricane, just without
alcohol.



Debra in CO



From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Amanda Mayan
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 7:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] alchol consumption and a toddler





Not sure how to handle this..hoping for suggestions.

My husband and I drink a bit of alcohol..we share a glass of wine or a
bottle of beer during dinner.or he'll have a vodka and cranberry when he
comes home from work.

We don't drink every single night, but alcohol is definitely a presence in
our house.

Our 3 year old likes to drink with us.

I don't want to make it an "issue" that she focuses on.or make it into a
desirable forbidden.I also think that telling her "it's for adults" could
lead to problems.

I'm particularly keyed into this issue because I grew up with a mostly sober
(though with rare relapses every decade or so) father

When we have a drink and she asks for it, I always offer her juice or water
instead, so she has options. many times she'll say she wants "just a sip"
and then chug.

I'm totally not comfortable with this, but totally not sure how to handle
it.

I've explained to her that it could make her feel funny, or make her tummy
hurt and little people can have little amounts only

I've tried fancy sodas in bottles, so she has a "special" drink too.she
really likes the alcohol (particularly mikes hard lemonade, which doesn't
even taste like alcohol!).

Do we just not have it around? I try to put it into opaque glasses when I
can.but my husband is not so good about remembering

Any other ideas?

Also, as a side note, my husband, who grew up in another country and was
given sips of an ouzo like drink when he had belly aches as a child,
specifically remembers lying about tummy aches as a young child to get the
sips.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

Simon and Linnaea have had wine and other drinks since they were little. Not a lot, but a small glass of beer or wine or mead or a vodka orange (screwdriver) when they'd ask. Linnaea really liked beer and David and she would share a glass pretty regularly. She doesn't drink it anymore. I just asked her if she'd like a beer and she said "no, not really." So, no real cravings. We brew wine and beer, there's a fair bit in the house. There's vodka and rum and brandy, I think, and rice wine and a few other things in the house, nobody sneaks it. Simon likes 1% alcohol cider, but nothing stronger. The other day a friend spent the night and they were watching 10 Things I Hate About You. There is a big party scene, with a bunch of kegs and a lot of alcohol and it's madness. I hated parties like that, all chaos and you paid for a plastic cup which got you refills whenever you could wedge yourself close enough to the keg. Simon asked why anyone would want to go to
that party and his friend (who's 10) said he'd go for the free beer. I doubt that Simon and Linnaea will feel the need to seek out free beer parties.

Schuyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Adam Dealan-de <adam@...> wrote:
> It is okay to have limits
> with reason.

Its reasonable to assume that limits exist in life - we don't have to make up additional limits in order for kids to learn about the world. Its just as reasonable to honor your own personal limits (preferably proactively, but that's a whole 'nother topic).

Its well worth thinking about how much alcohol is "okay" for a child because there's a whole lot of cultural pressure on some parents to "just say no" when that has never been shown to be a terribly effective strategy.

If limits have reasons, talk about the reasons. If the reasons make sense, then you don't really need a rule or imposed limit. If the reason doesn't make sense - to the kids! then its worth re-examining the matter. Sometimes adults get really locked into thinking we're making sense, when we're not ;) I know that when I got into the habit of explaining my rules (before I dropped rules completely) I found a surprising amount of my reasoning wasn't very clear, or was based on specualtion.

"Not for children" is the kind of limit that often makes a whole lot less sense than adults think it does. When something really *isn't* for kids, that's usually obvious to kids! Physically overwhelming, not interesting, confusing, and overly complicated are pretty clear signals to kids! Kids don't want to be sick or hurt, and they don't want to feel overwhelmed or confused - but they'll set themselves up to be any of those things in order to get around a limit with which they disagree. That's human nature - adults do it too.

>>Otherwise this can lead to abuse.

Radical unschooling begins with a premise that people naturally like to feel good. That's what makes unschooling possible! Feeding curiosity feels good. Meeting needs feels good. Connecting with other people feels good. Feeling capable and competent feels good. Limiting something can make it seem more valuable, more desirable - that's another underlying premise of radical unschooling. Limiting something that a child expresses curiosity about is a grand set-up for kids sneaking around behind parents' backs to feed that curiosity anyway. That's something that can lead to abuse, and does for many people. Setting limits don't stop that, especially not firm limits.

>>I would suggest
> letting your child know why drinking adult drinks is not appropriate for
> children

Why isn't it appropriate? That's a really important question. If its that its not *culturally* appropriate, then it can be well worth talking with kids about how much is a good idea to say to other people, such as: Grandma's a Baptist, so don't tell her we drink with dinner. That's not really any different than giving kids ideas of what to say to nosey adults who insist on quizzing them about schoolish subjects.

It *might* be helpful to talk about body size and dosages, but that's also the sort of thing that can come up in other kinds of conversations. Over the winter my dd was sick and we got some kids' cough syrup. She wanted to take it herself - keep track of the time and all that, so we chatted about dosage and body size and effects - not a big long lecture, because she's not all that verbal, just the bare bones facts. She didn't have any trouble taking the specified amount, even though she liked the taste and wanted more, because she understood the reasoning.

>>and then enforcing this.

In families where kids aren't often trusted to manage their own decisions, there's a lot of talk about enforcing. Regardless of whether it even works, in a home where kids are used to their own decisions and reasoning being valued as highly as those of adults, enforcement isn't necessary. If a kid is doing something he or she has been asked not to do, its not a sign that enforcement is needed, its a sign that something else needs to change - some needs aren't being met, somewhere. Enforcing a rule doesn't help meet anyone's needs - it doesn't fix the problem, just covers it up with a big "no".

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>Simon asked why anyone would want to go to
> that party and his friend (who's 10) said he'd go for the free beer. I doubt that Simon and Linnaea will feel the need to seek out free beer parties.
****************

Two years ago a friend of Ray's graduated high school and threw a party up the road from us. Naturally Ray wanted to go. About an hour later he was back saying "Its a totally boring party, all anyone wants to do is get drunk." Nowadays he hangs out mostly with people in their early twenties - a year or two past that stage when most kids around here go nuts with alcohol. He finds all that tedious.

As a side note, for awhile he was fire spitting (breathing fire) and using a combination of high-proof drinking alcohol and oil to avoid any complications of swallowing the fuel (he knows someone who swallowed white gas and was very sick for a couple years). He wasn't drinking it, but enough of the alcohol would absorb through contact to get him buzzed after a few mouthfuls. He didn't like it - he's very physical and social and being buzzed made him feel stupid and inept. That led to a dilema - drink more and desensitize a little, or stop fire spitting? He chose to stop fire spitting, at least for the most part. Desensitizing himself to alcohol just didn't sound like fun to him.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

Adam Dealan-de

I agree with much of what you said. I don't mind my children having and
trying small amounts of wine and such. But I do think that some
children do need limits that we can reason and teach about...but
sometimes in the end (to save their lives) we do as parents need to
enforce rules (that we may have worked out with our children). Now my
kids are very young. As they grow older, the limits and rules that we
set will be able to be reasoned better and worked out. Sometimes
feeling good is not the right answer. Sugar makes you feel good until
you get cavities and need dental work. Now once my child wanted to just
run across a busy road because she wanted to...she didn't care my
reason..now I doubt that you would suggest that I just let her.
Sometimes little ones don't have the reasoning and wisdom to understand
limits and rules for their safety and well-being. Until they do, we can
do good to help keep them alive. I think that some things are so
addictive and destructive to the human brain and body that we need
safeguards until they can come to decisions knowing the consequences
full well. Such as violent video games, television, pornography, war
and drugs just to name a few. There are forces at work in the world who
could care less about my child and only see them as a means to wealth
and power. I will be that safeguard until they can take the mantel
themselves.

Adam Dealan-de



On 5/9/2010 1:10 PM, plaidpanties666 wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected]
> <mailto:unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>, Adam Dealan-de
> <adam@...> wrote:
> > It is okay to have limits
> > with reason.
>
> Its reasonable to assume that limits exist in life - we don't have to
> make up additional limits in order for kids to learn about the world.
> Its just as reasonable to honor your own personal limits (preferably
> proactively, but that's a whole 'nother topic).
>
> Its well worth thinking about how much alcohol is "okay" for a child
> because there's a whole lot of cultural pressure on some parents to
> "just say no" when that has never been shown to be a terribly
> effective strategy.
>
> If limits have reasons, talk about the reasons. If the reasons make
> sense, then you don't really need a rule or imposed limit. If the
> reason doesn't make sense - to the kids! then its worth re-examining
> the matter. Sometimes adults get really locked into thinking we're
> making sense, when we're not ;) I know that when I got into the habit
> of explaining my rules (before I dropped rules completely) I found a
> surprising amount of my reasoning wasn't very clear, or was based on
> specualtion.
>
> "Not for children" is the kind of limit that often makes a whole lot
> less sense than adults think it does. When something really *isn't*
> for kids, that's usually obvious to kids! Physically overwhelming, not
> interesting, confusing, and overly complicated are pretty clear
> signals to kids! Kids don't want to be sick or hurt, and they don't
> want to feel overwhelmed or confused - but they'll set themselves up
> to be any of those things in order to get around a limit with which
> they disagree. That's human nature - adults do it too.
>
> >>Otherwise this can lead to abuse.
>
> Radical unschooling begins with a premise that people naturally like
> to feel good. That's what makes unschooling possible! Feeding
> curiosity feels good. Meeting needs feels good. Connecting with other
> people feels good. Feeling capable and competent feels good. Limiting
> something can make it seem more valuable, more desirable - that's
> another underlying premise of radical unschooling. Limiting something
> that a child expresses curiosity about is a grand set-up for kids
> sneaking around behind parents' backs to feed that curiosity anyway.
> That's something that can lead to abuse, and does for many people.
> Setting limits don't stop that, especially not firm limits.
>
> >>I would suggest
> > letting your child know why drinking adult drinks is not appropriate
> for
> > children
>
> Why isn't it appropriate? That's a really important question. If its
> that its not *culturally* appropriate, then it can be well worth
> talking with kids about how much is a good idea to say to other
> people, such as: Grandma's a Baptist, so don't tell her we drink with
> dinner. That's not really any different than giving kids ideas of what
> to say to nosey adults who insist on quizzing them about schoolish
> subjects.
>
> It *might* be helpful to talk about body size and dosages, but that's
> also the sort of thing that can come up in other kinds of
> conversations. Over the winter my dd was sick and we got some kids'
> cough syrup. She wanted to take it herself - keep track of the time
> and all that, so we chatted about dosage and body size and effects -
> not a big long lecture, because she's not all that verbal, just the
> bare bones facts. She didn't have any trouble taking the specified
> amount, even though she liked the taste and wanted more, because she
> understood the reasoning.
>
> >>and then enforcing this.
>
> In families where kids aren't often trusted to manage their own
> decisions, there's a lot of talk about enforcing. Regardless of
> whether it even works, in a home where kids are used to their own
> decisions and reasoning being valued as highly as those of adults,
> enforcement isn't necessary. If a kid is doing something he or she has
> been asked not to do, its not a sign that enforcement is needed, its a
> sign that something else needs to change - some needs aren't being
> met, somewhere. Enforcing a rule doesn't help meet anyone's needs - it
> doesn't fix the problem, just covers it up with a big "no".
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

Simon and Linnaea have limits that I don't need to reason or teach about. They are the limits of biology, of physics, of gravity, of life, of time and money and of all the rest. But they don't have arbitrary limits or rules that David and I apply to their lives. The amazing thing is that in the absence of David and my protection from things like beer and wine or things like violent video games, or sugar, or pornography they aren't running around shooting people and shooting up and toothless and damaged or damaging.

In our house I keep a big jar of candy. It's next to the fruit bowl, there are lollipops and tootsie rolls and candy bars in it. I try and keep it fairly full most of the time. If I see something that looks tasty at the store I'll buy it and pop it in there. I don't have to add to it very often. There are times when it diminishes, but mostly it isn't rushed at or devoured with abandon. It's an option. I also have a bowl of celery and carrots cut up in the fridge in water (it keeps them fresher tasting, crisper). I refill that far more frequently. Bagels get eaten faster than cake. I made a carrot cake the other day, Simon likes carrot cake more than most cakes, he's not a cake fan, and it was too sweet for him.

You wrote that your daughter wanted to run across a busy road one day and that you kept her safe rather than letting her run. It's an oft used argument for limits. Why did she want to run across a busy road? Did she want to play in the expanse of concrete? That could be met by going to a less busy road. Was there something on the other side she wanted to get to? A playful sweep into your arms and a movement forward and across at a safe time or place would achieve her goal. Unschooling is about finding ways to support a child interests. If you look to why she wanted to cross that road at that time there may have been more approaches than having it entrench your belief that children need rules to keep them safe.

"There are forces at work in the world who could care less about my
child and only see them as a means to wealth and power."

Helping my children to be strong in themselves, supporting their interests and passions, trusting their opinions and tastes, well that has made them less susceptible to the needs of others to make a profit. I have often tried to buy something for Simon or Linnaea and been turned down because, well, it isn't really what they want. If I had limited them, if I hadn't support Linnaea's desire to buy bouncy ball after bouncy ball after bouncy ball from the vending machine, she wouldn't have such an amazing sense of fullness. Or such a fantastic understanding of her own self and her own desires.

Schuyler


________________________________

I agree with much of what you said. I don't mind my children having and
trying small amounts of wine and such. But I do think that some
children do need limits that we can reason and teach about...but
sometimes in the end (to save their lives) we do as parents need to
enforce rules (that we may have worked out with our children). Now my
kids are very young. As they grow older, the limits and rules that we
set will be able to be reasoned better and worked out. Sometimes
feeling good is not the right answer. Sugar makes you feel good until
you get cavities and need dental work. Now once my child wanted to just
run across a busy road because she wanted to...she didn't care my
reason..now I doubt that you would suggest that I just let her.
Sometimes little ones don't have the reasoning and wisdom to understand
limits and rules for their safety and well-being. Until they do, we can
do good to help keep them alive. I think that some things are so
addictive and destructive to the human brain and body that we need
safeguards until they can come to decisions knowing the consequences
full well. Such as violent video games, television, pornography, war
and drugs just to name a few. There are forces at work in the world who
could care less about my child and only see them as a means to wealth
and power. I will be that safeguard until they can take the mantel
themselves.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Maybe alcohol needs to stop being a presence in your home.

Nance

--- In [email protected], "Amanda Mayan" <amanda@...> wrote:
>
> Not sure how to handle this..hoping for suggestions.
>
> My husband and I drink a bit of alcohol..we share a glass of wine or a
> bottle of beer during dinner.or he'll have a vodka and cranberry when he
> comes home from work.
>
> We don't drink every single night, but alcohol is definitely a presence in
> our house.

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Adam Dealan-de <adam@...> wrote:
>I do think that some
> children do need limits that we can reason and teach about...but
> sometimes in the end (to save their lives) we do as parents need to
> enforce rules (that we may have worked out with our children).

I don't have easy going compliant kids, if that's what you're getting at ;) I don't have kids that can be reasoned with or told what to do very easily. I don't have kids who follow rules unless they want to - and that's Normal human behavior. That's the trouble with rules - they only work when they're followed, and people only follow them when they Choose to do so. I can make all the rules I want about snakes, enforce them as hard as I want, and that won't stop my busy, curious, strong minded kids from picking them up. And yet, without rules or enforcement, they both know not to try to pick up a snake without first ascertaining that its not venomous.

How that happens is what this list is about - how to get from rules to no rules safely. It means a whole lot of slowing down and honoring kids wants and wishes in the moment so that they're not overwhelmed with curiosity or enthusiasm, or fight/flight in the moment. It means taking chance comments and the whims of 2yos seriously.

>>Now once my child wanted to just
> run across a busy road because she wanted to...

I wish there were giant billboards everywhere telling parents this is something very young children are prone to do. Yes! Little kids get all excited, see an expanse of space and dash into it - that's what they do. It helps to know that. Making a rule won't stop a young child from doing that. Enforcing the rule won't stop the young child from doing that. Its a perfect example of why rules are useless.

If you have an energetic young child, don't go near busy roads when you're tired or distracted. That's called thinking ahead. If you have to go near a busy road when you're tired or distracted, take some other safety precaustion - a stroller, a carrier, a shopping cart, your arms, heck, even one of those kid leases is a better option than expecting "stay here" will do your work for you.

>>I think that some things are so
> addictive and destructive to the human brain and body that we need
> safeguards

School is the most destructive thing there is, as far as the human brain is concerned. Seriously, there are a whooooole lot of problems that fall by the wayside when kids aren't being forced to do something on a daily basis.

> Such as violent video games, television, pornography, war
> and drugs just to name a few.

I have a 16yo male in my home. He's not addicted to any of those things. That's not because he's a good kid or I'm a fantastic parent, per se, its because he has a whole lot of choices in his life. He doesn't have to use sex, drugs, porn, or violence to prove he's a man. He just came back from a weekend rock concert that he attended with a group of folks in their 20s. He's not hung over or dragged out - he didn't even smell bad when he came in. That's pretty impressive for someone who's been up for two days, with money in his pocket and all the booze and drugs he could want. He *wants* very little of that - and as someone confident in his choices he doesn't feel the pressure other kids his age do to "try this" in order to fit in or feel good about himself. He Already feels good about himself. That's how the "feel good" part of unschooling works - our kids are happy to be Who They Are, rather than a drugged-out version of who they are.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

Karen Swanay

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 2:31 PM, plaidpanties666
<plaidpanties666@...>wrote:
That's how the "feel good" part of unschooling works - our kids are happy to
be Who They Are, rather than a drugged-out version of who they are.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
******************************************

And if you can't buy that (for whatever reason) then know this...these kids
don't have a need to piss you off by doing that very thing you've forbidden
them to do so long to "get back at you" or whatever their reason is. There
simply isn't anything to rebel against because they haven't had 15+ yrs of
you getting between something they wanted to do and them.

I have two boys 13 and 11 and now that we have deschooled, it's AMAZING to
me how much they hang out with us. I *NEVER* wanted to be with my mother at
this age. And I loved her but I wanted to be alone or with my friends...or
yes, at 17, having sex in my boyfriend's car. But as a preteen I was deep
into my "angst" and didn't want to be around my mother. (My father was long
gone.)

You can control them when they are small but know that it's an illusion.
You aren't creating respect by disrespecting them. You aren't growing up an
intelligent person who will make good decisions by deigning to allow them to
make decisions. You are shoving a wedge between you each time you tell your
child that they don't know well enough what they want or need. You are
telling them "You are stupid and I have to protect you from YOU."

It's a long way from a swallow of wine at 4 yrs old to pornography and
sex-slavery. I think it does everyone a disservice to catstrophize like
that. One final thing which I guess not too many people know...sugar
doesn't cause cavities. I took HORRID care of my teeth almost all my first
2 decades and even now flossing is a once a year ritual...I'm 39 and I have
no cavities. Whether or not you get cavities depends on the roll of the
genetic dice. To harp at your kid about this, is to essentially blame her
for whatever she inherited via your dna. That hardly seems fair. So you
should knock that off if you can't let go of anything else. Because if your
kid has crappy enamel and dentin, and she gets a cavity or more after
listening to you harp about tooth care you will blame her for her bad luck.
That's not going to bring you closer either.


Karen
"Correlation does not imply causation."

"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a
nail." Abraham Maslow




>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>> If you have an energetic young child, don't go near busy roads when you're tired or distracted. That's called thinking ahead. If you have to go near a busy road when you're tired or distracted, take some other safety precaustion - a stroller, a carrier, a shopping cart, your arms, heck, even one of those kid leases is a better option than expecting "stay here" will do your work for you.
*******************

I wanted to add to this. Whole life unschooling takes a different skill-set than other kinds of parenting - its important to know that! That's one of the reasons unschoolers recommend easing in to unschooling, and that's especially the case with younger children (and first time parents). Most of the "unschooling skill-set" involves thinking ahead, being proactive. Get the wiggles out *before* getting in the car-seat. Offer nutrient-dense snackes *before* kids are hungry.

Unschooling assumes rules and imposed limits aren't a good solution. That's the reason behind not using them. Its not a rule "no rules" - its an awareness that they don't do much good, and can do a whole lot of harm. But to live without rules takes some practice! So please, please! don't jump in to the deep end and shout "no more rules". Ease in. Learn as you go, but give yourself plenty of time to learn and practice. Realize you'll make mistakes, or not always be sure what's "better". Its okay. Its a process.

>>That's not because he's a good kid or I'm a fantastic parent, per se

I really do think Ray's a great person, btw, and I know for sure that I have lots more and better parenting skills than I did before. I meant to say that unschooling doesn't depend on some kind of specialness. Its not just for "gifted" kids or just for "difficult" kids, although those kids are often the ones who push parents to go further than we ever thought we could, out beyond the edge of our comfort zone.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "marbleface@..." <marbleface@...> wrote:
>
> Maybe alcohol needs to stop being a presence in your home.

To clarify this a little, this is a way to keep there from being the implication of "special things for adults only" since that's the sort of thing that can set kids up to sneak or binge. Its not *bad* to have a family culture that avoids certain things so long as you're aware that your kids will likely still become curious at a later date, and may not turn to you for input if they want to explore outside the family culture. Or you may choose to "deschool" that particular family limit later.

Some parents have an easier time avoiding things when kids are little and then easing in to having those things unlimited - and that's not a terrible strategy. Its a good window, though, into something that's really very common in multi-child families - rules frequently change significantly with younger children as parents get used to the idea that there aren't nearly as many "speeding trucks" in life as it seems with the first, precious child.

Ray having been such an over-the-top kid made it a whole lot easier for me to decide to unschool Mo from the start. It was easier to say "yes" knowing the kinds of headaches I had from "nos" in the past. It was easier to say "yes" knowing what kinds of things Ray had done *despite* my "nos" in the past! Having been dragged well outside the limits of my comfort zone by Ray made it a whoooole lot easier to take little steps outside my comfort zone the second time around. A couple of cookies are nothing at all compared to a kid wanting to jump off the roof!

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 9, 2010, at 7:24 PM, Adam Dealan-de wrote:

> I think that some things are so
> addictive and destructive to the human brain and body that we need
> safeguards until they can come to decisions knowing the consequences
> full well. Such as violent video games, television, pornography, war
> and drugs just to name a few.

What do you base your beliefs on? Personal experience? With people who
have been radically unschooled?

All alcoholics drink (or drank) so it seems logical to conclude
alcohol causes alcoholism. But that conclusion denies the reality
there are hundreds of millions of people who drink who aren't
alcoholics.

Violence existed long before video games and guns. Even before war. Is
the only difference between the violent kids in ghettos and the kids
in my upperish middle class town where the most violent crime in the
weekly police blotter is knocked over mailboxes that their parents let
them play video games?

What unschoolers see in their real life children is counter to what
people believe must happen without rules and controls. Radically
unschooled kids have free access to TV, video games, books, people,
food that spans a nutrition spectrum. Even pornography over the
internet. Based on what people believe will happen if those aren't
controlled, the kids should be eating little but junk food, be
violent, disrespectful, addicted to TV, video games and pornography,
and for those who are allowed alcohol, be drinking life fish.

And yet they aren't. (And there are grown unschoolers so it's not just
an experiment in progress.) Why is that, do you think?

People have a lifetime of experience with how people behave and react.
They know that if x is done then y will likely happen because they've
either seen it or it makes sense from what they know. But nearly every
single person most of us are familiar with has lived a childhood
controlled by someone else's agenda for them. For most kids the agenda
is because the parents love them, want what's best, want to protect
them. But intent doesn't change how actions feel.

The biggest thing that's missing in the lives of radically unschooled
kids is control. (And school, but that's a form of control too.) Not
lacking guidance! Not lacking connection! Not lacking help! But
lacking rules, lacking imposed limitations, lacking a pathway the kids
are kept on.

If you'd like to discuss further why limits and controls are
necessary, it's a topic that comes up regularly but it would help
*immensely* if you'd read some of what's been written (over and over)
so the discussion needn't start from square one.

Here's a page that specifically has some discussion about pornography:
http://sandradodd.com/sex

Scroll down the left side at:
http://www.joyfullyrejoycing.com/

where there are several pages on television, commercials, video games
and violence. And here:

http://sandradodd.com/t/violence
http://sandradodd.com/peace/guns

Down the right (on JoyfullyRejoycing) under "Influencing child
behavior" are discussions on rules and values.

And:

http://sandradodd.com/principles/
http://sandradodd.com/rules

If you are interested in what benefits unschoolers find in TV and
video games, Sandra has some excellent pages:

http://sandradodd.com/videogames/
http://sandradodd.com/tv/
http://sandradodd.com/game/tales

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kerryn LH

On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 7:37 AM, plaidpanties666
<plaidpanties666@...>wrote:

> --- In [email protected], "marbleface@..." <marbleface@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Maybe alcohol needs to stop being a presence in your home.
>
> To clarify this a little, this is a way to keep there from being the
> implication of "special things for adults only" since that's the sort of
> thing that can set kids up to sneak or binge. Its not *bad* to have a family
> culture that avoids certain things so long as you're aware that your kids
> will likely still become curious at a later date, and may not turn to you
> for input if they want to explore outside the family culture. Or you may
> choose to "deschool" that particular family limit later.
>
>

I've been wondering how one would introduce alcohol when there isn't ever
any in the house. DP's been "in recovery" for a few years, and comes from a
long line of alcoholics. I am not into drinking at all, so between the two
of us we never have it or buy it, or expose our kids to it. Our oldest is
only 6 so I guess we've plenty of time to think about it, but I'm wondering
how others have introduced the concept in similar situations.

Thanks.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Kerryn LH <kerryn77@...> wrote:
>> I've been wondering how one would introduce alcohol when there isn't ever
> any in the house.

Make friends ;)

That might sound simplistic, but I've found other people to be the most wonderful resource in the world, and not just other unschoolers (who are few and far between, alas). Other people are a great way to make my kids' worlds bigger. So as your kids get older, notice who drinks with dinner and at parties and ask if your kids can have a sip now and then.

---Meredith

otherstar

>>>>>>I've been wondering how one would introduce alcohol when there isn't ever
any in the house. DP's been "in recovery" for a few years, and comes from a
long line of alcoholics. I am not into drinking at all, so between the two
of us we never have it or buy it, or expose our kids to it. Our oldest is
only 6 so I guess we've plenty of time to think about it, but I'm wondering
how others have introduced the concept in similar situations.<<<<<

There is no need to really introduce anything to your kids per se. There are a lot of things that we don't have in our house because they don't interest us or some other reason. Unless you live in a vacuum, kids will know about alcohol. They may see it mentioned in movies or on TV. You may be out to dinner sometime and see/hear somebody that has had too much to drink. You may be at a wedding or even a church where alcohol is being served. The opportunities for kids to be introduced to stuff that we don't have in our house are limitless and there is no way that you can plan for every single eventuality.

We have always tried to leave communication open so that if there is something that our kids see or hear about and want to know about, then they know they can come to us. As an example, my 8 year old recently asked me about poll dancing and strip clubs. I would never ever deliberately expose her to that. Frankly, I was a bit mortified and had to check myself to make sure that I was not being alarmist or freaking out. She heard about it from somewhere and came to me. We had an open and honest discussion about it even though it was not something that I have in my house. I have figured out that it is easiest to just live life and take things as they come. Your child may not ever have an interest in alcohol just like my 5 year old may never ask about poll dancing. It is really hard to predict what will pique a child's curiosity and what won't. We can go somewhere with our kids and each kid will come away with something different.

Connie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 10, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Kerryn LH wrote:

> I've been wondering how one would introduce alcohol when there isn't
> ever
> any in the house.

Unlike TV, sugar and video games, alcohol won't be something other
kids have that yours don't. It's not part of kids' lives, though part
of the adult lives of some kids. So it's not a interest that you're
blocking your kids from.

By the time they're old enough to be questioning, it will probably
have come up in conversation why you don't have alcohol in the house
and that there's alcoholism in the family.

Providing a healthy attitude toward alcohol is a good idea but not
vital if it's not in your lives. But I think an even stronger
influence is not setting it up as something forbidden until 21.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

otherstar

Wow, that is amazing. I will definitely share that with my daughter. I had no idea that there was a US Pole Dancing Federation.

Connie


From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 7:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: alchol consumption and a toddler




Here is a link to some amazing women Pole Dancing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_NJiwIVu6k

Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2866 - Release Date: 05/10/10 13:26:00


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul & Camille

On Tue, 11 May 2010 12:24:27 +1200, <[email protected]>
wrote:

Providing a healthy attitude toward alcohol is a good idea but not
vital if it's not in your lives. But I think an even stronger
influence is not setting it up as something forbidden until 21


I agree with this. We dont readily have alcohol around - I dont drink.
Our ds (6y.o) knows what alcohol is, Dad has a beer on occasion however I
feel no need to give ds any, or give him any more info about it than what
he asks. To be honest I would never even dream of giving a toddler a
taste or any alcohol ever. Ive never thought about it even &have never
been asked for any, I wouldnt be thinking of giving it to a baby - however
thats just me - I obviously have some issues with that and I have
alcoholism in the family and while my husband has no problem with alcohol
and I dont bat an eyelid when he has a beer my first husband was a
different story - I dislike the destroying this substance does to 'some'
and I dont think it is appropriate to feed it to babies even if they ask.
I would say heres your special drink and add the cranberry or lemonade or
whatever but not the alcohol. For me personally 'If' I did give alcohol
to my baby and they did end up having a problem I would wonder if I had
encouraged that by feeding it to them when they didnt have the knowledge
and understanding to make that decision for themselves - particularly due
to the fact it is in our immediate family. I know that this is probably
seen as controlling or avoiding by some, however a baby doesnt know whats
s/he is asking for other than its something Mom or Dad are drinking - I
dont see any problem with substituting at this age.

Adam Dealan-de

Okay so my daughter aged 4 wants candy..it seems all the time. What do
you suggest?

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 10, 2010, at 10:07 PM, Adam Dealan-de wrote:

> Okay so my daughter aged 4 wants candy..it seems all the time. What do
> you suggest?

Have candy *and other sweet foods* that are easily grabbed *along with
lots of other things*.

Make monkey platters:

http://sandradodd.com/monkeyplatters/

and/or a snack drawer (which is described on the page the above links
to).

(Some people do put candy on the monkey platters and it seems to work
for them. Some people keep the candy separate but available in a
cupboard or jar.)

Bake cookies (and muffins and cupcakes) with her and for her. (Often
kids will eat or at least try -- or be interested in other people
trying! ;-) -- what they've created when they wouldn't if it was just
handed to them.) But, of course, don't make her cook if she's not
interested. Let her do as much or little as she enjoys.

Plant a small garden. Expect to do most of the work but invite her
along. Create a bean pole tent. (Just as math is part of life not a
thing that exists in isolation (as in school), candy is part of a
bigger picture of food, not a thing to be examined in isolation.)

If candy has been limited and it's something she enjoys, you've
created a feeling of scarcity. People -- not just kids! -- react to
scarcity by grabbing -- to horde or consume -- as much as they can
when it's available to tide them over until it's available again. When
she becomes emotionally confident the candy won't disappear again,
she'll slow down.

If she's going through a growth spurt or gearing up for one, her body
is saying it needs calorie dense food (so you won't see the same
slowing down until she's done.)

Even if she isn't going through a growth spurt, children have small
stomachs. They need small amounts of food often. But they're busy
people and want to spend as much time exploring and as little time on
boring eating so their bodies crave nutrition that is quick and easy
and calorie dense.

But do be aware that some *people* have a sweet tooth. They will eat
more sweet foods than others. But even people with sweet tooths -- *if
they know what they love is easily available* and haven't grown up
deprived -- won't eat sweets all the time or exclusively.

Trust that her body, if it's living in an environment of abundance and
variety, will choose what it needs *right now* to grow. It knows
itself better than your brain does. But also trust that joy is an
important nutrient. And that worry and people standing in your way of
what you enjoy are joy sappers.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Amanda Mayan

Thanks to all for some really thoughtful posts. I appreciate all of the
feedback.

It's weird, in our house have no problem giving free access to food,
(nutrient dense, sugary, whatever) so this should be no different.food is
food, drink is drink..modify when possible (just like giving ww bread
instead of white if it's not specified) but treat it like what it is..one of
many choices.



Hard to wrap my head around it, with parts of me screaming about societies'
rules for alcohol consumption.and my family history.but funnily enough, even
(and maybe especially) given my dad's substance abuse issues, I was raised
with really normal and fairly free access attitudes towards alcohol.wine
with dinner as young adult if I wanted, never drank excessively in college,
and have probably only been drunk about 5 times in my life.all accidental.so
no clue why it's so hard (in my brain) for me to do with my child what my
parents did so successfully with me J I think it might be that she's soooo
young, but really I just have to trust her. thanks again for this
discussion.definitely helped me out a bunch!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

In addition to everything Joyce said, I recall a concern about teeth being brought up. Some kids do really well with having a regular dental hygine routine. Others do well with making the business of tooth-brushing fun, but some kids could care less and/or even resist brushing. It can help to research alternatives ways to have oral hygine (I'm hoping Alex posts the link, but there's a yahoo group on the subject...something like alternative kids teeth). Beyond wipes and tongue scrapers and rinses there are dietary additions that can have an effect on the remineralization cycle. But also know that a certain amount of dental issues are hereditary!

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

otherstar

>>>I dont think it is appropriate to feed it to babies even if they ask. I would say heres your special drink and add the cranberry or lemonade or whatever but not the alcohol<<<<

I don't think that anyone is advocating offering alcohol to a baby or young child. In my experience, there are some kids that don't ask. They take. My 16 month old recently stole a drink of my husband's beer. We did not give it to her. We had to take care of a mess that my 3 year old created and my husband sat his beer down to help me. Before we knew it, she had taken a drink. We swapped her drink for my husband's beer. Nobody made a big deal out of it.

When my oldest daughter was younger, she threw a fit to get a drink of what daddy had. We tried to distract her and offer her something else to no avail. Finally, my husband let her have a sip. She proceeded to spit it out and say yuck. The taste was so horrible to her that she threw up. My 5 year old has no desire to drink it because she has sniffed daddy's beer and thinks that it stinks. I was never comfortable with letting them taste the alcohol but it came down to how do you not make it a big deal when a child is insisting on having a drink or tasting what daddy has. If you have a kid that is cool with no, then it isn't a big issue. You tell them no and you move on.

>>>For me personally 'If' I did give alcohol to my baby and they did end up having a problem I would wonder if I had encouraged that by feeding it to them when they didnt have the knowledge and understanding to make that decision for themselves - particularly due to the fact it is in our immediate family. I know that this is probably seen as controlling or avoiding by some, however a baby doesnt know whats s/he is asking for other than its something Mom or Dad are drinking - I don't see any problem with substituting at this age.<<<

I can't imagine feeding my kids alcohol. It would be really weird to go up to a baby and say, "Here, do you want to have a beer with daddy? Take a drink."

In our house, it has always been the kids being curious and asking about what daddy is drinking. My 5 year old was content to smell it and that was it. She had no desire to even taste it based on just the smell. My 3 year old has never really cared either. My oldest has expressed curiosity and doesn't easily take no for an answer. She can't stand the taste of anything but champagne. We get sparkling grape juice as a substitute on New Year's or other such occasions. That satisfies everybody. How do you substitute in the moment without making a big deal about it when you have a very persistent little one? For us, it has always been easiest to let them have a tiny sip to satisfy the curiosity. Most of the the time, they think it is yucky and that is the end of it. On the rare occasion that they have liked it, my husband will get up and make them a non-alcoholic drink of their own.

Connie







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.819 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2866 - Release Date: 05/10/10 13:26:00


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 11, 2010, at 3:19 PM, otherstar wrote:

> I don't think that anyone is advocating offering alcohol to a baby
> or young child.

Nope. And we're not telling people to give their children sugar or
plunk them in front of TVs. The goal isn't to expose kids to the whole
world. In fact unschooling parents do a lot of filtering! Filtering
based on what the *child* likes and dislikes and what the parent
believes the child might like or dislike. We're talking about kids
knowing the parent will help them explore what interests them in safe
and respectful ways.

The question isn't whether to give a child alcohol but how to handle
their curiosity when they see an adult drinking and want to taste.
When they're very young, redirection can be a good strategy -- though
it won't work for all kids. It will make some even more curious. For
some keeping alcohol out of their sight for a while might be the
kindest thing to do so you don't need to redirect. Which is easier
when there's just one! ;-) For others kids, giving them a sip isn't
going to put them on the road to alcoholism. And examining that fear
will help the parent get the emotional baggage out of the way so they
can offer information rather than tension that will probably be
intriguing and misinterpreted.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]