unschooling and foster children
gemlily14
Hi,
Was wondering if anyone has experience unschooling foster children(or adopted children) with a history of trauma.
Have been parenting along lines of attachment based theories for trauma, ie Daniel Hughes, Bruce Perry and Dan Siegel.
Not sure if (especially initially) unschooling principles would work with some of these kids as they have such a different starting point. For example kids with abuse in their past often have had very chaotic lives with no structure, and structure is one way of providing stability that they need. And if you have been malnourished, food regulation is sometimes an issue and needs lots of guidance, sometimes children will just eat and eat till they vomit as they are used to having no food and their bodies tell them to eat now, because it might be gone. So in some ways it doesn't really fit, although being at home with an attachment disorder child would allow for the relationship to develop, which is what we have had the chance to do as they are not school age. And my very real fear is that all the hard work we have done will be undone when they have to go to school.
On that more practical point in australia we don't have the legal right to not enrol foster children in school as the government is legal guardian. And adoption is not favoured in australia, rather we have long term foster care with no legal rights for the children. Although we are pursuing a legal guardianship(not adoption) at the moment we don't have the choice to unschool. The kids aren't of school age yet so we are just leaving it as long as possible till we have to start school here (legally six years old although most start at five)
So I am envious of all you unschoolers who can choose to unschool and we will just have to make the best of what we can ie a school that best suits the kids and possibly on a less than fulltime basis if allowed.
But I am enjoying reading about all your experiences even if we wont be able to do it ourselves, we will just be unschooling after school hours.
gem
Was wondering if anyone has experience unschooling foster children(or adopted children) with a history of trauma.
Have been parenting along lines of attachment based theories for trauma, ie Daniel Hughes, Bruce Perry and Dan Siegel.
Not sure if (especially initially) unschooling principles would work with some of these kids as they have such a different starting point. For example kids with abuse in their past often have had very chaotic lives with no structure, and structure is one way of providing stability that they need. And if you have been malnourished, food regulation is sometimes an issue and needs lots of guidance, sometimes children will just eat and eat till they vomit as they are used to having no food and their bodies tell them to eat now, because it might be gone. So in some ways it doesn't really fit, although being at home with an attachment disorder child would allow for the relationship to develop, which is what we have had the chance to do as they are not school age. And my very real fear is that all the hard work we have done will be undone when they have to go to school.
On that more practical point in australia we don't have the legal right to not enrol foster children in school as the government is legal guardian. And adoption is not favoured in australia, rather we have long term foster care with no legal rights for the children. Although we are pursuing a legal guardianship(not adoption) at the moment we don't have the choice to unschool. The kids aren't of school age yet so we are just leaving it as long as possible till we have to start school here (legally six years old although most start at five)
So I am envious of all you unschoolers who can choose to unschool and we will just have to make the best of what we can ie a school that best suits the kids and possibly on a less than fulltime basis if allowed.
But I am enjoying reading about all your experiences even if we wont be able to do it ourselves, we will just be unschooling after school hours.
gem
Lyla Wolfenstein
i just shared this article with someone this morning, about adopting older children and attachment parenting:
http://www.kindredcommunity.com/articles/bonding-the-journey-of-the-mother-who-adopts-older-children/p/1264
lyla
http://www.kindredcommunity.com/articles/bonding-the-journey-of-the-mother-who-adopts-older-children/p/1264
lyla
----- Original Message -----
From: gemlily14
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 4:52 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] unschooling and foster children
Hi,
Was wondering if anyone has experience unschooling foster children(or adopted children) with a history of trauma.
Have been parenting along lines of attachment based theories for trauma, ie Daniel Hughes, Bruce Perry and Dan Siegel.
Not sure if (especially initially) unschooling principles would work with some of these kids as they have such a different starting point. For example kids with abuse in their past often have had very chaotic lives with no structure, and structure is one way of providing stability that they need. And if you have been malnourished, food regulation is sometimes an issue and needs lots of guidance, sometimes children will just eat and eat till they vomit as they are used to having no food and their bodies tell them to eat now, because it might be gone. So in some ways it doesn't really fit, although being at home with an attachment disorder child would allow for the relationship to develop, which is what we have had the chance to do as they are not school age. And my very real fear is that all the hard work we have done will be undone when they have to go to school.
On that more practical point in australia we don't have the legal right to not enrol foster children in school as the government is legal guardian. And adoption is not favoured in australia, rather we have long term foster care with no legal rights for the children. Although we are pursuing a legal guardianship(not adoption) at the moment we don't have the choice to unschool. The kids aren't of school age yet so we are just leaving it as long as possible till we have to start school here (legally six years old although most start at five)
So I am envious of all you unschoolers who can choose to unschool and we will just have to make the best of what we can ie a school that best suits the kids and possibly on a less than fulltime basis if allowed.
But I am enjoying reading about all your experiences even if we wont be able to do it ourselves, we will just be unschooling after school hours.
gem
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***On that more practical point in australia we don't have the legal right to not enrol foster children in school as the government is legal guardian.***
Maybe you can find some information and ideas here: (if you haven't already seen these)
http://www.joyouslearning.info/
http://liberatedlearning.info/phpbb/
http://www.home-ed.vic.edu.au/
http://hea.asn.au/
The hea site offers a lot of info and links.
I found those here: http://sandradodd.com/world there is also a link to a list of Australian blogs.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maybe you can find some information and ideas here: (if you haven't already seen these)
http://www.joyouslearning.info/
http://liberatedlearning.info/phpbb/
http://www.home-ed.vic.edu.au/
http://hea.asn.au/
The hea site offers a lot of info and links.
I found those here: http://sandradodd.com/world there is also a link to a list of Australian blogs.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "gemlily14" <gemlily14@...> wrote:
Replace the word "structure" with "predictability". Imposing structure is only one way to make a child's life more predictable. Its also possible to generate routines around a kid's needs and a degree of organization in the home without that needing to be "structure" in the conventional sense.
Ray, my stepson, had a really rough time as a little kid - his bio mom was pretty unstable at that point in his life, and he had all the sorts of characteristics that lead people to say "this kid needs structure". At the same time, he fought like the dickens against any kind of imposed structure - he didn't want to be told and directed. Having a regular routine helped enormously, though. I noticed when he most often needed to eat, and planned meals and snacks around those times. I noticed what sorts of things helped him deal with having high energy and planned more of those things for his high-energy times of day. I noticed that transitions were hard and actively planned gentler transitions for him. I kept the things he most often wanted in consistent locations - like shoes by the front door, cereal on a certain shelf, stuffed bunny on the pillow - so that he wouldn't be stressed out by having to search. Very very little of that involved me setting out rules or managing his time, rather it involved a lot of me *responding* to his regular needs so that they were being met not just consistently but also predictably.
Keep in mind that all the strategies that unschoolers suggest for deschooling food are just that - strategies. The "goal" is for kids to be empowered where food is concerned, to feel like they are the ones making the decisions, and having a sense of abundance where food is concerned is often a key to empowerment. Depending on how old they are, bring them into the process of deciding what foods are available and coming up with plans for how to be sure everyone gets "enough". For younger kids, making snacks "handy" - quick rather than something that needs time to prepare - can help them start to feel that sense of abundance.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>For example kids with abuse in their past often have had very chaotic lives with no structure, and structure is one way of providing stability that they need.*************
Replace the word "structure" with "predictability". Imposing structure is only one way to make a child's life more predictable. Its also possible to generate routines around a kid's needs and a degree of organization in the home without that needing to be "structure" in the conventional sense.
Ray, my stepson, had a really rough time as a little kid - his bio mom was pretty unstable at that point in his life, and he had all the sorts of characteristics that lead people to say "this kid needs structure". At the same time, he fought like the dickens against any kind of imposed structure - he didn't want to be told and directed. Having a regular routine helped enormously, though. I noticed when he most often needed to eat, and planned meals and snacks around those times. I noticed what sorts of things helped him deal with having high energy and planned more of those things for his high-energy times of day. I noticed that transitions were hard and actively planned gentler transitions for him. I kept the things he most often wanted in consistent locations - like shoes by the front door, cereal on a certain shelf, stuffed bunny on the pillow - so that he wouldn't be stressed out by having to search. Very very little of that involved me setting out rules or managing his time, rather it involved a lot of me *responding* to his regular needs so that they were being met not just consistently but also predictably.
>>And if you have been malnourished, food regulation is sometimes an issue and needs lots of guidance, sometimes children will just eat and eat till they vomit as they are used to having no food and their bodies tell them to eat now, because it might be gone.***************
Keep in mind that all the strategies that unschoolers suggest for deschooling food are just that - strategies. The "goal" is for kids to be empowered where food is concerned, to feel like they are the ones making the decisions, and having a sense of abundance where food is concerned is often a key to empowerment. Depending on how old they are, bring them into the process of deciding what foods are available and coming up with plans for how to be sure everyone gets "enough". For younger kids, making snacks "handy" - quick rather than something that needs time to prepare - can help them start to feel that sense of abundance.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
jonlebar
Hi gem
We have adopted lots of kids with RAD. It's been an interesting
journey. We had home schooled and then went on to unschooling and
then ended up with several in school. I've figured out the main
problem we've had is that unschooling is based on relationships and
trust. It goes both ways. WE, who don't have attachment issues,
want to trust and want to build a relationship with our kids. The
problem is that our RAD kids can only tolerate a certain amount of
intimacy and push away relationships at all costs. Some of our kids
have moved in as young as 3, but have come from such abuse and
neglect that even though we've made much progress, there are still
huge attachment issues, which, as you know, result in huge trust/
relationship issues.
I believe whole heartedly in unschooling. My biological kids are 28,
26, &22. I homeschooled them from the time the oldest was 1st grade
and we were very "eclectic" and "relaxed". By the time my now 22 yr
old was 15 we basically had dropped all curriculum and let him live.
I wish I'd have done the same with my older two, but still, we were
VERY relaxed. I really really wanted to go to complete unschooling
with our other kids, but it was very frustrating. We go back and
forth btw. unschooling and public school depending on the needs of
the kids each year. It seems really flakey and I hate dealing with
the school and the ridiculous influences, but we kind of fly by the
seat of our pants.
I won't bore you with all the details, but our first adoptions were
18 years ago and we had to go into an extremely controlling type of
parenting because of the things you described. They have no internal
controls and their "world view" is based on their earliest "reality"
which was extremely dysfunctional. This is very very hard to
overcome even after 15 years of living in a "normal" family who is
loving and gives them unconditional acceptance. They still sabotage
relationships and freedom. They haven't developed normal boundaries.
They had all been unschooling until this last year when most of them
went back to public school. Which, btw, is pathetic. I put them
back into school because our 12 yr old (bio mom is a prostitute, he'd
been very abused physically, was fed marijuana, alcohol etc. and
adopted into our fam at age 4) who had been doing really really well
"snapped" and stole a neighbors brand new truck. He then ran away
etc. This caused obvious concern from the authorities. He made
false allegations to a psychologist, admitted he lied, but some ppl
believed him...we ended up with all of our kids being interviewed by
social services etc. It all turned out fine, but this brought our
family under intense scrutiny. The "we get to do whatever we want
for school" didn't fly to well with the judge & our son's attny.
lol! We really needed to put our kids in school so we would have
"witnesses" that we are a "normal" family etc.
The problem with school is that they have no sense of self so they
act like whoever they're with. The older they get the more of an
issue this is. They can't maintain friendships because they don't
understand the give/take/loyalty that most kids naturally develop.
In school they eventually end up with the "wrong crowd" because
that's who they are accepted by. At home they maintain a victim
status and there are usually huge power struggles over the dumbest
things! :)
What you need to realize is that you cannot change these kids. THEY
have to want to change. We can't change their thought processes. We
can model "normal" but they have to decide to live that way and it's
usually waaaay out there for them and very scary. Our kids are
totally different when we aren't looking. It won't be your fault if
everything you have done seems to be undone. All kids are
influenced by people and may do things that we don't approve of, but
our RAD kids have no loyalties to us as parents. That's just not in
them. We live thinking that our RAD kids have changed and have
connected to us. With some, this is really true. With others, their
behavior and "attachment" is just a way of "fitting in" because "in
this house we have to do it this way", so it's just another survival
skill for them, not a life change. With a lot of them it's not
real. It's in their "heads" but not in their "hearts".
We are working on unschooling two of the kids that are 15 & 16. They
NEED to be unschooled because they NEED to develop the life skills of
making their own decisions etc. The problem is that they take
everything you say as an authority challenge. We had baby kittens
born and our 16 yod brought them in the house the day they were
born. We've raised newfoundlands & st. bernards in the past and have
several litters of barn cats over the years. I reminded her that we
need to leave the babies alone for awhile - "it's best to leave them
alone til their eyes are open." She brought them in 3 days later so
some 3 & 5 yr olds could hold them. I asked her if she remembered
that the kittens really need to be left alone and she said, "Yes, but
I need to make my own decisions and I don't want to do what you tell
me." She's 16 and she's got a normal IQ, but her lack of attachment
causes her to behave in ways that are just weird. Today they were on
my computer e-mailing and they got into my facebook and read my
private inbox...no boundaries.
Sorry, every time I post I end up writing a book..... We only have 5
kids left at home and may bring them all back home again for next
year. I won't go into that but it's in my blog...
Laurie
mylifeasyomama.blogspot.com
We have adopted lots of kids with RAD. It's been an interesting
journey. We had home schooled and then went on to unschooling and
then ended up with several in school. I've figured out the main
problem we've had is that unschooling is based on relationships and
trust. It goes both ways. WE, who don't have attachment issues,
want to trust and want to build a relationship with our kids. The
problem is that our RAD kids can only tolerate a certain amount of
intimacy and push away relationships at all costs. Some of our kids
have moved in as young as 3, but have come from such abuse and
neglect that even though we've made much progress, there are still
huge attachment issues, which, as you know, result in huge trust/
relationship issues.
I believe whole heartedly in unschooling. My biological kids are 28,
26, &22. I homeschooled them from the time the oldest was 1st grade
and we were very "eclectic" and "relaxed". By the time my now 22 yr
old was 15 we basically had dropped all curriculum and let him live.
I wish I'd have done the same with my older two, but still, we were
VERY relaxed. I really really wanted to go to complete unschooling
with our other kids, but it was very frustrating. We go back and
forth btw. unschooling and public school depending on the needs of
the kids each year. It seems really flakey and I hate dealing with
the school and the ridiculous influences, but we kind of fly by the
seat of our pants.
I won't bore you with all the details, but our first adoptions were
18 years ago and we had to go into an extremely controlling type of
parenting because of the things you described. They have no internal
controls and their "world view" is based on their earliest "reality"
which was extremely dysfunctional. This is very very hard to
overcome even after 15 years of living in a "normal" family who is
loving and gives them unconditional acceptance. They still sabotage
relationships and freedom. They haven't developed normal boundaries.
They had all been unschooling until this last year when most of them
went back to public school. Which, btw, is pathetic. I put them
back into school because our 12 yr old (bio mom is a prostitute, he'd
been very abused physically, was fed marijuana, alcohol etc. and
adopted into our fam at age 4) who had been doing really really well
"snapped" and stole a neighbors brand new truck. He then ran away
etc. This caused obvious concern from the authorities. He made
false allegations to a psychologist, admitted he lied, but some ppl
believed him...we ended up with all of our kids being interviewed by
social services etc. It all turned out fine, but this brought our
family under intense scrutiny. The "we get to do whatever we want
for school" didn't fly to well with the judge & our son's attny.
lol! We really needed to put our kids in school so we would have
"witnesses" that we are a "normal" family etc.
The problem with school is that they have no sense of self so they
act like whoever they're with. The older they get the more of an
issue this is. They can't maintain friendships because they don't
understand the give/take/loyalty that most kids naturally develop.
In school they eventually end up with the "wrong crowd" because
that's who they are accepted by. At home they maintain a victim
status and there are usually huge power struggles over the dumbest
things! :)
What you need to realize is that you cannot change these kids. THEY
have to want to change. We can't change their thought processes. We
can model "normal" but they have to decide to live that way and it's
usually waaaay out there for them and very scary. Our kids are
totally different when we aren't looking. It won't be your fault if
everything you have done seems to be undone. All kids are
influenced by people and may do things that we don't approve of, but
our RAD kids have no loyalties to us as parents. That's just not in
them. We live thinking that our RAD kids have changed and have
connected to us. With some, this is really true. With others, their
behavior and "attachment" is just a way of "fitting in" because "in
this house we have to do it this way", so it's just another survival
skill for them, not a life change. With a lot of them it's not
real. It's in their "heads" but not in their "hearts".
We are working on unschooling two of the kids that are 15 & 16. They
NEED to be unschooled because they NEED to develop the life skills of
making their own decisions etc. The problem is that they take
everything you say as an authority challenge. We had baby kittens
born and our 16 yod brought them in the house the day they were
born. We've raised newfoundlands & st. bernards in the past and have
several litters of barn cats over the years. I reminded her that we
need to leave the babies alone for awhile - "it's best to leave them
alone til their eyes are open." She brought them in 3 days later so
some 3 & 5 yr olds could hold them. I asked her if she remembered
that the kittens really need to be left alone and she said, "Yes, but
I need to make my own decisions and I don't want to do what you tell
me." She's 16 and she's got a normal IQ, but her lack of attachment
causes her to behave in ways that are just weird. Today they were on
my computer e-mailing and they got into my facebook and read my
private inbox...no boundaries.
Sorry, every time I post I end up writing a book..... We only have 5
kids left at home and may bring them all back home again for next
year. I won't go into that but it's in my blog...
Laurie
mylifeasyomama.blogspot.com
>
>
> Not sure if (especially initially) unschooling principles would
> work with some of these kids as they have such a different starting
> point. For example kids with abuse in their past often have had
> very chaotic lives with no structure, and structure is one way of
> providing stability that they need. And if you have been
> malnourished, food regulation is sometimes an issue and needs lots
> of guidance, sometimes children will just eat and eat till they
> vomit as they are used to having no food and their bodies tell them
> to eat now, because it might be gone. So in some ways it doesn't
> really fit, although being at home with an attachment disorder
> child would allow for the relationship to develop, which is what we
> have had the chance to do as they are not school age. And my very
> real fear is that all the hard work we have done will be undone
> when they have to go to school.
>
>
Miguelkll
I just wanted to thank you for this post. I do not have a RAD child, but my oldest son has schizoaffective disorder and it's very interesting to read the challenges you have faced. I am about to try unschooling for the first time with my son who is 15. So I am really late to the game. I hope it is not too late.
Dealing with the school system has been awful for a long time and I have thought of homeschooling often over the years. I have had to literally fight every single year just to get the schools to do what they are supposed to do. He has been in self contained special ed since 4th grade and this year, more than ever, it was clear that the school had decided that he was not capable of learning and had totally given up on him, to the point that my son was asked to leave school early every day because he was being bullied. When I asked why my son needed to leave early when he was not the one that was causing the problem and the teacher actually said, "He isn't doing anything anyway so it doesn't matter if he is here or not". My son had been getting more and more depressed as this bullying escalated. When he bacame suicidal I went to the school to talk with the principal and she denied it was even happening (going so far as calling the other student to the
office and asking him right in front of me if he as picking on my son. Of course he said no.)and refused to acknowledge the damage that was being done to my son. My son has not been back to school since then.
His doctor actually filed paperwork saying that school was causing to have an unstable mood and episodic depression. He is in the 9th grade and the doctor strongly urged me to find an alternative. I thought I would just homeschool. My son was totally against it. He did not want to return to regular school, but for him home is the place you go to get away from the bad stuff and to "do school" at home would be letting the bad stuff in there. So I researched and researched and came upon unschooling.I cannot say I fully understand all of it but I am learning all I can right now and hoping that I can eventually make it work for a kid who no longer gets any joy from learning.
Jennifer
Dealing with the school system has been awful for a long time and I have thought of homeschooling often over the years. I have had to literally fight every single year just to get the schools to do what they are supposed to do. He has been in self contained special ed since 4th grade and this year, more than ever, it was clear that the school had decided that he was not capable of learning and had totally given up on him, to the point that my son was asked to leave school early every day because he was being bullied. When I asked why my son needed to leave early when he was not the one that was causing the problem and the teacher actually said, "He isn't doing anything anyway so it doesn't matter if he is here or not". My son had been getting more and more depressed as this bullying escalated. When he bacame suicidal I went to the school to talk with the principal and she denied it was even happening (going so far as calling the other student to the
office and asking him right in front of me if he as picking on my son. Of course he said no.)and refused to acknowledge the damage that was being done to my son. My son has not been back to school since then.
His doctor actually filed paperwork saying that school was causing to have an unstable mood and episodic depression. He is in the 9th grade and the doctor strongly urged me to find an alternative. I thought I would just homeschool. My son was totally against it. He did not want to return to regular school, but for him home is the place you go to get away from the bad stuff and to "do school" at home would be letting the bad stuff in there. So I researched and researched and came upon unschooling.I cannot say I fully understand all of it but I am learning all I can right now and hoping that I can eventually make it work for a kid who no longer gets any joy from learning.
Jennifer