lilyfoil

Hi friends, I have been mostly lurking on this list for years now, and I am so thankful for it.

I wanted to chime in with a slightly different angle on some of the recent discussions around food and bedtimes.

In my journey, I question not only mainstream parenting and schooling, but also mainstream media and fast/junk food, and our consumerist culture. These are all things I want to protect or free my children from to some degree.

Our closest family friends consider themselves radical unschoolers, yet their mom is much stricter about sugar intake than I am. They are all very athletic and healthy and I think I could take notes from them seeing as I come from a line of bookworms and diabetics. I myself have trouble eating properly (I recommend Geneen Roth's new book) and taking care of myself sometimes. So to me it seems it is about modeling balance, and it's not easy.

We have bedtimes -- 8 pm for our daughters, 10 pm for myself, and usually the same for my husband. We don't adhere strictly to these every night, but we stick to them as a general routine. I find this adds to all of our mental and physical health and happiness. Just as helping our toddler nap when she's ready, or at least have a quiet time, adds to everyone's joyful living. And I always glad to wake up with my daughters, especially if we've all had enough rest and the gorgeous sun's just up and the day's ahead.

As a feminist, I feel a little concerned when a mother's work seems to not be valued as such. And I think not giving yourself some time alone is being unkind and unfair to yourself. At least that is true for me. I really can't function well if I don't get a few hours once a week to be alone. It's not much, and I start missing everybody, but it also feels necessary and good, and gives them time alone with their dad as well.

My warm good wishes to all,
Liz

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "lilyfoil" <seafaces@...> wrote:
>> I wanted to chime in with a slightly different angle on some of the recent discussions around food and bedtimes.
**************

Its not really a new angle, but its something that does get misunderstood about unschooling, people start confusing useful strategies with "have to". There really aren't any "have tos" as far as unschooling is concerned. You don't "have to" have unlimited or unregulated anything. But the other side of that is also true - you don't "have to" regulate kids for them to be okay. That's what unschooling is really about, the freedom of stepping away from "having to" regulate kids "for their own good".

That being said, if you find you "have to" regulate something in order for you to be nice to your kids DO IT!!! Its better to be nice than some kind of picture-perfect unschooler. If you can't go through a day without fighting about food unless you make rules, make some rules. If you can't go through a day without screaming because you need ten minutes to yourself, for petes sake find a way to get those ten minutes! The point isn't to hate yourself and your life for a principle, its for you and your kids to LOVE YOUR LIFE.

But also consider that there may be other options, too, and one big Big option is shifting your perspective to see more of your child's perspective. That's what all the un-regulating is all about, really, seeing that children's perspectives are valuable, even when they're very very different from parents'. Its Hard to value the perspectives of children. It takes a Lot of deschooling.

> As a feminist, I feel a little concerned when a mother's work seems to not be valued as such.
***************

I'm about as radical a feminist as you'll find, and one of the gorgeous things about radical unschooling, from a radical feminist perspective, is that it holds all work of all people as valuable. The work of children, what engages them in the moment, is as valuable as the work of adults. The unpaid work of an adult in the home is as valuable as paid work. Being present and mindful, finding joys, and being kind are all as valuable work as anything overtly "productive".

Part of women wanting time away from kids relvolves around sexist baggage - the rotten old messages that say that mothering is the least valuable work of all. Deschooling from sexist baggage involves making a conscious effort to actively value the life we've chosen. Savoring our children for exactly who they are today is an act of radical feminism.

>>I think not giving yourself some time alone is being unkind and unfair to yourself.
************

For kindness to work as a principle, it can't be something you "apply" - rather its something to live and living kindly doesn't mean ignoring your own needs. Sometimes it seems challenging to balance kindness with kindness. It can seem like there's a conflict between being kind to yourself and kind to your kids. If you're drowing in kindness-to-others, stop! Find another way. Drowing won't help you Or your children.

Learning to be proactive is kind - proactively finding ways to meet your own needs in small ways so that you have more energy overall is one of the kindest things you can do for yourself *and* the people you love. But learning to be more proactive can take a lot of deschooling. We're used to the idea of reactive parenting. Where do most parenting questions start? "What do I do when x happens?" The unschooling answer is often unsatisfying, initially, because it revolves around discovering why x happens and changing the situation so that x becomes a non-issue - and your perspective is sometimes the part of the situation most suited for change.

"What do I do when my kids stay up later than I'm happy with?" is a regular question. From an unschooling perspective, finding more ways to be happy is really an important part of that question - because its impossible to make another person go to sleep if she or he isn't ready, but also because happiness itself is important.

> We have bedtimes -- 8 pm for our daughters, 10 pm for myself, and usually the same for my husband.
**************

Lots of families have what could easily be called "bedtimes" - times when various family members go to bed. Mine is something like 9pm, Mo's around the same time, George and Ray's more like midnight. Its a regular routine we have, something that hasn't been created so much as figured out organically. "Bedtime" is particularly well suited to discovering organically because people have natural rhythms. The trouble is when one person's rhythm is inconvenient to another's.

Some people do well with calming routines to settle down for the night, and those are always good strategies to try but that's also an idea that some parents find they need to deschool because not all children need to settle down to sleep, and even those that do won't always settle down by means of a mellow winding-down routine. Its something to experiment with, but The Biggest roadblock to finding a night-time rhythm that works for your family is having a pre-existing expectation as to what that's going to look like. Holding out an expectation that kids "should" be asleep by bedtime is one of the biggest causes of bedtime woes.

>>We don't adhere strictly to these every night, but we stick to them as a general routine.
*************

Exactly. General routines are helpful! Strict adherence, not so helpful. Do you resent your kids on nights when they're up an extra hour or two? I'm guessing not - but why not? How did you get there? That's the really important part, the part that's being asked for.

>>I myself have trouble eating properly

I did for years - until I found a definition of "properly" that worked for my body. The same definition doesn't work for my partner's body. What's good for my body isn't what's good for Ray's 16yo body - and what's good for his body now that he's stopped growing and started filling out is very very different from what it was two years ago. What's good for Mo's 8yo body isn't what was good for Ray's body at 8.

>>it seems it is about modeling balance

Its not actually possible for me or my partner to model anything at all where food is concerned because our kids needs are so different from ours. Happily, it turns out that's one of the things we don't "have to" do! It really is possible for individual people, even children, to discover what's going to work for their individual bodies. Deschooling that is tricky, though, because so much emotional baggage gets tied up in food and eating. When eating gets tied up to emotional junk, then all foods are junk foods. Stress trashes digestion and elimination, trashes the body's natural defense systems, trashes human reasoning. So getting the junk out of food takes a whole lot of love and care.

For many adults, the process of learning self-love and self-care is tied up in developing a healthy relationship with food and eating. The trouble, its easy to mix up the specifics of What you're eating with that relationship. Modelling a healthy relationship with food isn't about the details of spinach over kale or quinoa over teff, its about living joyfully and kindly. Its about savoring. You can't make another person savor, though! What you can do is offer chances to savor, and notice what's appreciated. What's eaten automatically and what with gusto? Feed the gusto! Offer foods that provoke enthusiasm!

Deschooling food can lead to a period of worry that kids will never eat "good food" again, as kids' choices can really narrow down for awhile to Just those things you wish they'd eat sparingly. It can help to see the time as a re-learning the relationship between food and joy, re-learning gusto and enthusiasm where food is concerned.

Humans are natural enthusiasts. We love to live and to learn. We're passionate and sparkly by nature. Radical unschooling is about believing that, and believing its enough. Revel in your passionate, sparkly nature, and that of your children!

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

plaidpanties666

> Our closest family friends consider themselves radical unschoolers, yet their mom is much stricter about sugar...
***************

I find that in real life the lable "radical unschooler" isn't terribly helpful. It often means a family is living what they consider to be an alternative or radical lifestyle, and also unschool to some extent.

Online, radical unschooling is generally used in the sense that "radical" modifies the word "unschooling" rather than the parent's political or lifestyle views. The most radical form of unschooling takes the basic idea that kids don't need a curriculum to learn school subjects and extends that to every aspect of life: kids don't need an externally decided learning agenda to discover what they need to know about life.

Its confusing, and periodically other terms get suggested as alternatives. <shrug> Lables aren't always helpful. The goal of this list is to help people figure out how to extend the principles of unschooling into every aspect of life - but no-one is ever required to "go all the way".

---Meredith

lilyfoil

They fully unschool in lots of areas, but yes, labels aren't all that useful.

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> > Our closest family friends consider themselves radical unschoolers, yet their mom is much stricter about sugar...
> ***************
>
> I find that in real life the lable "radical unschooler" isn't terribly helpful. It often means a family is living what they consider to be an alternative or radical lifestyle, and also unschool to some extent.
>
> Online, radical unschooling is generally used in the sense that "radical" modifies the word "unschooling" rather than the parent's political or lifestyle views. The most radical form of unschooling takes the basic idea that kids don't need a curriculum to learn school subjects and extends that to every aspect of life: kids don't need an externally decided learning agenda to discover what they need to know about life.
>
> Its confusing, and periodically other terms get suggested as alternatives. <shrug> Lables aren't always helpful. The goal of this list is to help people figure out how to extend the principles of unschooling into every aspect of life - but no-one is ever required to "go all the way".
>
> ---Meredith
>

lilyfoil

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "lilyfoil" <seafaces@> wrote:
> >> I wanted to chime in with a slightly different angle on some of the recent discussions around food and bedtimes.
> **************
>
> Its not really a new angle, but its something that does get misunderstood about unschooling, people start confusing useful strategies with "have to".

I didn't claim mine was a new angle, but it is one that wasn't part of the discussion so I thought I'd chime in. I'm getting more comfortable with finding my own way and less comfortable with a few voices and opinions dominating the unschooling lists.

All the best,
Elizabeth

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 4, 2010, at 9:32 PM, lilyfoil wrote:

> I'm getting more comfortable with finding my own way and less
> comfortable with a few voices and opinions dominating the
> unschooling lists.

While the list looks and feels like a place for unschoolers to share
ideas, people will be less irritated with the list if they see it as a
collection not of people but of *ideas* focused on: putting the
relationship first, treating children with respect, supporting
children's interests and other unschooling principles.

If members see the list more like an encyclopedia of respectful
solutions rather than a social network of unschoolers I hope they'll
be less irritated when their mainstream ideas are held up for
examination.

While *members* of a vegan list aren't limited to veganism, members
expect *answers* to be vegan based. It would be irritating to ask on a
vegan list how to get more protein and be told to eat more beef.
Members join to get answers they can't get outside in the regular
world. They trust the list not to waste their time with ideas they
could find at Cooks.com. They trust the list to provide good solid
information about vegan lifestyle.

Same goes for the unschooling list.

If unschoolers do want a social network, the Radical Unschoolers
Network is a good place. While the forum there is similarly focused on
solid unschooling principle-based ideas, the groups and blogs and
members' pages are more like Facebook and other networking sites.
(Just so people know, Ning (where it's hosted) will be shutting down
its free accounts in the next 2 months. How high Ning's fees are will
determine whether RUN stays with Ning or moves elsewhere.)

http://familyrun.ning.com/

> I question not only mainstream parenting and schooling, but also
> mainstream media and fast/junk food, and our consumerist culture.
> These are all things I want to protect or free my children from to
> some degree.


Mainstream parenting comfortably encompasses how to protect kids from
the dangers of our culture. How parents do that spans from building a
wall of safety around their family to crossing fingers and hoping for
the best. That whole spectrum of advice is easily found on
Mothering.com and Parenting.com and any number of full service and
specialized parenting advice websites.

What isn't on the mainstream spectrum is help for parents who want to
keep children's free exploration as a top priority even when the
parent's fears make her want to put limits on it. How can a parent who
wants to give her kids the same freedom with TV she allows them in
bookstores and libraries when she fears the influence of consumerist
culture, the violence, and values that clash with her own? It's easy
to find parents who will help her build walls or armor to protect her
kids. It's easy to find parents who will shrug and say what can you
do? It's not easy to find thoughtful analysis of what really happens
in families where kids are given the freedom to explore and help in
doing that.

> And I think not giving yourself some time alone is being unkind and
> unfair to yourself.


I think the advice here often gets misread as "sacrifice yourself for
your kids". But the message should be to find a way to incorporate
self care into the schedule without taking from the kids. The
conventional mindset is mom is the provider and she only has so much
to give and when that's gone that's it. (Or to give and give
selflessly until mom drops). While it's true time and energy are
limited, if the mindset causes the kids to feel their (important to
them) needs are getting shunted aside, the only option they have to
meet them is to keep battle for them. If, on the other hand, kids
trust from past behavior that "We'll do it in 30 minutes" or "We'll
put it on tomorrow's schedule" means that -- baring alien invasion --
it will happen, then kids are more understanding.

No one, adult or child, responds positively to "You've had more than I
can give. It's my turn." They may feel guilty that they didn't realize
they were taking too much. They may feel angry if they were trusting
someone to meet their needs. Or some other negative emotion that won't
help them feel good. But, if the running-low-on-energy person says
instead "Let's figure out how to meet both our needs," the energy and
emotional response is more positive and more conducive to working
together.

> I really can't function well if I don't get a few hours once a week
> to be alone. It's not much, and I start missing everybody, but it
> also feels necessary and good, and gives them time alone with their
> dad as well.


And most moms would agree. But if the kids feel they're being shoved
aside, if mom's attitude is it's good for them despite their feelings,
it will tear at the relationship. While *you* may naturally find ways
to prevent that, for advice to be helpful to people here who seek ways
to build relationships that "natural" part may not be natural to them.
(If it were, they wouldn't be reading eagerly to figure it out!) How
to build relationships can't be just assumed as part of "good"
parenting because if it's not stated, those who have never experienced
anything other than authoritarian parenting don't know to put it in
there.

> We have bedtimes


Most parents set some bedtime by the clock. It's pretty standard
practice. Some conventional parents are flexible and feel like great
parents when they let their kids stay up for something special. That
works for certain personalities of kids, ones who are low key, ones
who are compliant, ones who are able to set aside what they're doing
for the morning. It works for certain personalities of parents, ones
who can ease their kids into compliance. But for parents and kids with
different personalities, it can feel like while they're doing what the
other parents are doing, their kids are fighting against the bedtime
so either the parent is failing or the kid is failing.

More useful is advice that's independent of personality. Advice that's
based on respect and trust, that's focused on helping kids meet their
needs rather than getting kids to comply with the parents decisions.

It's not "wrong" to have set bedtimes. Just as it's not "wrong" to eat
beef. But for parents who are looking for more respectful solutions,
the idea of setting bedtimes by the clock is as out of place for what
they trust the list to provide as beef is on a vegan list. *Everyone*
knows how to set bedtimes ;-) And there's lots of support for it on
conventional parenting forums. But this list works to provide
alternative information based around deep respect for children that
can't be found elsewhere.

Joyce






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

JJ

Even when you really want it and bring a learning attitude to unschooling basics, there's no guarantee. For example, suppose someone wrote this two years ago:

"Thank you for this comment, Pam. i am having trouble getting my head
around the candy and teeth freedoms, tho ibtellectually I get it as
part of the continuum. I've been reading about unschooling for about
2 years now, but 8 mos ago put my older daughter in preschool -- she
said she was lonely for more kids, my mom & spouse were concerned I'd
get ppd -- then my second daughter was born late in the summer, and
we had some health scares, both she & I -- all resolved, I am
grateful to say -- anyway the winter's been intense and my temper and
old childhood hurts/angers have been hard to work with at times --
that and school have been hard for my older girl....all of which is
just to say I feel humbled by all you experienced unschoolers, and
feel a novice, and it's also a great feeling....I already feel
healing and growth in our family, and what's more my husband does too
-- so I am really hopiong to convince us all to skip kindergarten
come August.

I will be here on list, listening gratefully---

Liz in Ca."


That mom could be joyfully unschooling two years later and be generously sharing perspective here to help others in turn, or else she might need to remember to "feel humble and feel a novice" and to start "listening gratefully" all over again . . .

JJ

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On May 4, 2010, at 9:32 PM, lilyfoil wrote:
>
> > I'm getting more comfortable with finding my own way and less
> > comfortable with a few voices and opinions dominating the
> > unschooling lists.
>
> While the list looks and feels like a place for unschoolers to share
> ideas, people will be less irritated with the list if they see it as a
> collection not of people but of *ideas* focused on: putting the
> relationship first, treating children with respect, supporting
> children's interests and other unschooling principles.
>
> If members see the list more like an encyclopedia of respectful
> solutions rather than a social network of unschoolers I hope they'll
> be less irritated when their mainstream ideas are held up for
> examination.
>
> While *members* of a vegan list aren't limited to veganism, members
> expect *answers* to be vegan based. It would be irritating to ask on a
> vegan list how to get more protein and be told to eat more beef.
> Members join to get answers they can't get outside in the regular
> world. They trust the list not to waste their time with ideas they
> could find at Cooks.com. They trust the list to provide good solid
> information about vegan lifestyle.
>
> Same goes for the unschooling list.
<snip>
>
> > I really can't function well if I don't get a few hours once a week
> > to be alone. It's not much, and I start missing everybody, but it
> > also feels necessary and good, and gives them time alone with their
> > dad as well.
>
>
> And most moms would agree. But if the kids feel they're being shoved
> aside, if mom's attitude is it's good for them despite their feelings,
> it will tear at the relationship. While *you* may naturally find ways
> to prevent that, for advice to be helpful to people here who seek ways
> to build relationships that "natural" part may not be natural to them.
> (If it were, they wouldn't be reading eagerly to figure it out!) How
> to build relationships can't be just assumed as part of "good"
> parenting because if it's not stated, those who have never experienced
> anything other than authoritarian parenting don't know to put it in
> there.
>
> > We have bedtimes
>
>
> Most parents set some bedtime by the clock. It's pretty standard
> practice. Some conventional parents are flexible and feel like great
> parents when they let their kids stay up for something special. That
> works for certain personalities of kids, ones who are low key, ones
> who are compliant, ones who are able to set aside what they're doing
> for the morning. It works for certain personalities of parents, ones
> who can ease their kids into compliance. But for parents and kids with
> different personalities, it can feel like while they're doing what the
> other parents are doing, their kids are fighting against the bedtime
> so either the parent is failing or the kid is failing.
>
> More useful is advice that's independent of personality. Advice that's
> based on respect and trust, that's focused on helping kids meet their
> needs rather than getting kids to comply with the parents decisions.
>
> It's not "wrong" to have set bedtimes. Just as it's not "wrong" to eat
> beef. But for parents who are looking for more respectful solutions,
> the idea of setting bedtimes by the clock is as out of place for what
> they trust the list to provide as beef is on a vegan list. *Everyone*
> knows how to set bedtimes ;-) And there's lots of support for it on
> conventional parenting forums. But this list works to provide
> alternative information based around deep respect for children that
> can't be found elsewhere.
>
> Joyce
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

lilyfoil

Yes, and that same mom might tire of feeling like a novice, and begin to trust in her own instincts rather than those of self-appointed experts. I guess I'm an unschooler, not a radical unschooler.
Liz


--- In [email protected], "JJ" <jrossedd@...> wrote:
>
> Even when you really want it and bring a learning attitude to unschooling basics, there's no guarantee. For example, suppose someone wrote this two years ago:
>
> "Thank you for this comment, Pam. i am having trouble getting my head
> around the candy and teeth freedoms, tho ibtellectually I get it as
> part of the continuum. I've been reading about unschooling for about
> 2 years now, but 8 mos ago put my older daughter in preschool -- she
> said she was lonely for more kids, my mom & spouse were concerned I'd
> get ppd -- then my second daughter was born late in the summer, and
> we had some health scares, both she & I -- all resolved, I am
> grateful to say -- anyway the winter's been intense and my temper and
> old childhood hurts/angers have been hard to work with at times --
> that and school have been hard for my older girl....all of which is
> just to say I feel humbled by all you experienced unschoolers, and
> feel a novice, and it's also a great feeling....I already feel
> healing and growth in our family, and what's more my husband does too
> -- so I am really hopiong to convince us all to skip kindergarten
> come August.
>
> I will be here on list, listening gratefully---
>
> Liz in Ca."
>
>
> That mom could be joyfully unschooling two years later and be generously sharing perspective here to help others in turn, or else she might need to remember to "feel humble and feel a novice" and to start "listening gratefully" all over again . . .
>
> JJ
>
> --- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On May 4, 2010, at 9:32 PM, lilyfoil wrote:
> >
> > > I'm getting more comfortable with finding my own way and less
> > > comfortable with a few voices and opinions dominating the
> > > unschooling lists.
> >
> > While the list looks and feels like a place for unschoolers to share
> > ideas, people will be less irritated with the list if they see it as a
> > collection not of people but of *ideas* focused on: putting the
> > relationship first, treating children with respect, supporting
> > children's interests and other unschooling principles.
> >
> > If members see the list more like an encyclopedia of respectful
> > solutions rather than a social network of unschoolers I hope they'll
> > be less irritated when their mainstream ideas are held up for
> > examination.
> >
> > While *members* of a vegan list aren't limited to veganism, members
> > expect *answers* to be vegan based. It would be irritating to ask on a
> > vegan list how to get more protein and be told to eat more beef.
> > Members join to get answers they can't get outside in the regular
> > world. They trust the list not to waste their time with ideas they
> > could find at Cooks.com. They trust the list to provide good solid
> > information about vegan lifestyle.
> >
> > Same goes for the unschooling list.
> <snip>
> >
> > > I really can't function well if I don't get a few hours once a week
> > > to be alone. It's not much, and I start missing everybody, but it
> > > also feels necessary and good, and gives them time alone with their
> > > dad as well.
> >
> >
> > And most moms would agree. But if the kids feel they're being shoved
> > aside, if mom's attitude is it's good for them despite their feelings,
> > it will tear at the relationship. While *you* may naturally find ways
> > to prevent that, for advice to be helpful to people here who seek ways
> > to build relationships that "natural" part may not be natural to them.
> > (If it were, they wouldn't be reading eagerly to figure it out!) How
> > to build relationships can't be just assumed as part of "good"
> > parenting because if it's not stated, those who have never experienced
> > anything other than authoritarian parenting don't know to put it in
> > there.
> >
> > > We have bedtimes
> >
> >
> > Most parents set some bedtime by the clock. It's pretty standard
> > practice. Some conventional parents are flexible and feel like great
> > parents when they let their kids stay up for something special. That
> > works for certain personalities of kids, ones who are low key, ones
> > who are compliant, ones who are able to set aside what they're doing
> > for the morning. It works for certain personalities of parents, ones
> > who can ease their kids into compliance. But for parents and kids with
> > different personalities, it can feel like while they're doing what the
> > other parents are doing, their kids are fighting against the bedtime
> > so either the parent is failing or the kid is failing.
> >
> > More useful is advice that's independent of personality. Advice that's
> > based on respect and trust, that's focused on helping kids meet their
> > needs rather than getting kids to comply with the parents decisions.
> >
> > It's not "wrong" to have set bedtimes. Just as it's not "wrong" to eat
> > beef. But for parents who are looking for more respectful solutions,
> > the idea of setting bedtimes by the clock is as out of place for what
> > they trust the list to provide as beef is on a vegan list. *Everyone*
> > knows how to set bedtimes ;-) And there's lots of support for it on
> > conventional parenting forums. But this list works to provide
> > alternative information based around deep respect for children that
> > can't be found elsewhere.
> >
> > Joyce
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

JJ

As long as it's all about you (mom absorbed in what mom feels, wants, needs to justify) it's less likely you are either.

--- In [email protected], "lilyfoil" <seafaces@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, and that same mom might tire of feeling like a novice, and begin to trust in her own instincts rather than those of self-appointed experts. I guess I'm an unschooler, not a radical unschooler.
> Liz
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "JJ" <jrossedd@> wrote:
> >
> > Even when you really want it and bring a learning attitude to unschooling basics, there's no guarantee. For example, suppose someone wrote this two years ago:
> >
> > "Thank you for this comment, Pam. i am having trouble getting my head
> > around the candy and teeth freedoms, tho ibtellectually I get it as
> > part of the continuum. I've been reading about unschooling for about
> > 2 years now, but 8 mos ago put my older daughter in preschool -- she
> > said she was lonely for more kids, my mom & spouse were concerned I'd
> > get ppd -- then my second daughter was born late in the summer, and
> > we had some health scares, both she & I -- all resolved, I am
> > grateful to say -- anyway the winter's been intense and my temper and
> > old childhood hurts/angers have been hard to work with at times --
> > that and school have been hard for my older girl....all of which is
> > just to say I feel humbled by all you experienced unschoolers, and
> > feel a novice, and it's also a great feeling....I already feel
> > healing and growth in our family, and what's more my husband does too
> > -- so I am really hopiong to convince us all to skip kindergarten
> > come August.
> >
> > I will be here on list, listening gratefully---
> >
> > Liz in Ca."
> >
> >
> > That mom could be joyfully unschooling two years later and be generously sharing perspective here to help others in turn, or else she might need to remember to "feel humble and feel a novice" and to start "listening gratefully" all over again . . .
> >
> > JJ
> >
> > --- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 4, 2010, at 9:32 PM, lilyfoil wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm getting more comfortable with finding my own way and less
> > > > comfortable with a few voices and opinions dominating the
> > > > unschooling lists.
> > >
> > > While the list looks and feels like a place for unschoolers to share
> > > ideas, people will be less irritated with the list if they see it as a
> > > collection not of people but of *ideas* focused on: putting the
> > > relationship first, treating children with respect, supporting
> > > children's interests and other unschooling principles.
> > >
> > > If members see the list more like an encyclopedia of respectful
> > > solutions rather than a social network of unschoolers I hope they'll
> > > be less irritated when their mainstream ideas are held up for
> > > examination.
> > >
> > > While *members* of a vegan list aren't limited to veganism, members
> > > expect *answers* to be vegan based. It would be irritating to ask on a
> > > vegan list how to get more protein and be told to eat more beef.
> > > Members join to get answers they can't get outside in the regular
> > > world. They trust the list not to waste their time with ideas they
> > > could find at Cooks.com. They trust the list to provide good solid
> > > information about vegan lifestyle.
> > >
> > > Same goes for the unschooling list.
> > <snip>
> > >
> > > > I really can't function well if I don't get a few hours once a week
> > > > to be alone. It's not much, and I start missing everybody, but it
> > > > also feels necessary and good, and gives them time alone with their
> > > > dad as well.
> > >
> > >
> > > And most moms would agree. But if the kids feel they're being shoved
> > > aside, if mom's attitude is it's good for them despite their feelings,
> > > it will tear at the relationship. While *you* may naturally find ways
> > > to prevent that, for advice to be helpful to people here who seek ways
> > > to build relationships that "natural" part may not be natural to them.
> > > (If it were, they wouldn't be reading eagerly to figure it out!) How
> > > to build relationships can't be just assumed as part of "good"
> > > parenting because if it's not stated, those who have never experienced
> > > anything other than authoritarian parenting don't know to put it in
> > > there.
> > >
> > > > We have bedtimes
> > >
> > >
> > > Most parents set some bedtime by the clock. It's pretty standard
> > > practice. Some conventional parents are flexible and feel like great
> > > parents when they let their kids stay up for something special. That
> > > works for certain personalities of kids, ones who are low key, ones
> > > who are compliant, ones who are able to set aside what they're doing
> > > for the morning. It works for certain personalities of parents, ones
> > > who can ease their kids into compliance. But for parents and kids with
> > > different personalities, it can feel like while they're doing what the
> > > other parents are doing, their kids are fighting against the bedtime
> > > so either the parent is failing or the kid is failing.
> > >
> > > More useful is advice that's independent of personality. Advice that's
> > > based on respect and trust, that's focused on helping kids meet their
> > > needs rather than getting kids to comply with the parents decisions.
> > >
> > > It's not "wrong" to have set bedtimes. Just as it's not "wrong" to eat
> > > beef. But for parents who are looking for more respectful solutions,
> > > the idea of setting bedtimes by the clock is as out of place for what
> > > they trust the list to provide as beef is on a vegan list. *Everyone*
> > > knows how to set bedtimes ;-) And there's lots of support for it on
> > > conventional parenting forums. But this list works to provide
> > > alternative information based around deep respect for children that
> > > can't be found elsewhere.
> > >
> > > Joyce
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>

plaidpanties666

Happily this isn't the only resource available, and there's nothing stopping anyone from creating even more! Here are a few general unschooling lists:

http://www.unschooling.info
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschooling-dotcom/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingStories/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ask_Unschooling_Offspring/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingResources
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingUK/

Some groups with specific focus:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AfAmUnschool/
(that's African American Unschoolers)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CrunchyUnschoolers/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freethinking_unschoolers/
(that's a group with a religious focus)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDads/
(dads only space)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/radicalunschooling/
(that's a law of attraction list, very radical unschooling focus, though)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled/
(specifically for families with younger children, but includes a few longer-time unschooling folk, too - again, a radical unschooling list)

A few that are better for more experienced radical unschoolers:

http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingdiscussion
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shinewithunschooling/

A list for bringing the principles of radical unschooling into adult partnerships:
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingpartnerships/

And finally, I have a new project of my own, which is a yahoo group for folks who want to discuss topics - not necessarily unschooling - with a clear understanding of the principles of radical unschooling. Its a much smaller, more private group that requires approval, and its brand new, with an intention of regularly scheduled topics. The starter is a biggie, coincidentally, its "feminism":

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advancedrutopics/

Please feel free to post other groups and lists and to link others in the links section of the website, here at Unschooling Basics! I'm noticing the links page is a bit scant - I pulled most of these from Always Unschooled and when I get time I'll move some over here if no-one else beats me to it.

---Meredith

plaidpanties666

Someone made a comment about trusting one's own instincts recently, an idea I find interesting just in terms of the wide range of experiences people have in that area. Some folks seem to fall right into unschooling - it feels natural or "instinctive". I wasn't one of those parents, though, and can't necessarily speak to that experience. Being a big bad authority figure felt perfectly natural and instinctive to me, and I prided myself on the fact that, within the context of authoritative parenting, I could be nice about it. I had to actively learn to be a different kind of parent. So from that perspective, my instincts were part of what was in my way. I had to learn to listen to something beyond my animal nature.

Okay, there's a catch in there, and I'm not oblivious to it! I could just as easily say that being a big bad authority figure was something I learned - part of my baggage, and I had to un-learn it in order to get back to my kinder, gentler instincts. In the context of gentle parenting, that seems to be what most people mean by the word. Is that more true than saying its important to rise above my animal nature? I don't think its either more or less true, personally. I think human nature has really wonderful aspects to it, and also some hard-edged ugly aspects - and all of that is potentially useful and just as potentially problematic.

That's what I like about the idea of principles, in the unschooling sense. My principles aren't the sorts of things I find instinctive, nor are they the sorts of things I can *just* intellectualize my way into being. I can't just feel my way there and I can't just think my way there, it takes some of both. When I find I'm bogging myself down in over-intellectualizing a problem, it helps me to step back and feel my way through a little more - smell my kids' hair or spend a day marvelling at their very existance. When I find I'm bogging myself down with feelings, it helps me to step back and think things through.

So for me, getting more comfortable with unschooling hasn't been about trusting my instincts so much as developing a better understanding of my whole process - all the things it takes for me to solve problems. It has been about learning how I learn and respond. I won't say I'm done with that process, I still second-guess myself at the wrong times and fail to second-guess myself when I should be doing exactly that. I fumble around wondering what's the better option when my "instincts" are saying one thing and my "baggage" is saying another and my "intellect" has a third view of the matter. That confusion is sometimes part of my process ;) and there are times when its really important for me to communicate that to my kids - that I'm confused. That I don't have a "right answer". One of the wonders of unschooling is that its okay not to have a "right answer" all the time. Our kids need us to be ourselves, confused and fallible and works-in-progress. That's *part* of what makes it possible to be their partners, friends and allies.

---Meredith

otherstar

>>><So for me, getting more comfortable with unschooling hasn't been about trusting my instincts so much as developing a better understanding of my whole process - all the things it takes for me to solve problems. It has been about learning how I learn and respond. I won't say I'm done with that process, I still second-guess myself at the wrong times and fail to second-guess myself when I should be doing exactly that. I fumble around wondering what's the better option when my "instincts" are saying one thing and my "baggage" is saying another and my "intellect" has a third view of the matter. That confusion is sometimes part of my process ;) and there are times when its really important for me to communicate that to my kids - that I'm confused. That I don't have a "right answer". One of the wonders of unschooling is that its okay not to have a "right answer" all the time. Our kids need us to be ourselves, confused and fallible and works-in-progress. That's *part* of what makes it possible to be their partners, friends and allies.<<<<

I just wanted to expand on this because it reminds me of an incident we had the other day. Because of my rearing around loud and obnoxious people, I tend to be loud and obnoxious too. My "instinct" is to yell or get loud when I get frustrated. That is my knee-jerk reaction. So, how do you differentiate between a knee-jerk reaction and real animal instinct? I don't know but it seems that there are times when they "feel" the same. My oldest daughter asked me the other day why I sometimes yell. I told her that it is because I get frustrated and feel like nobody is listening to me. I don't mean to yell because I don't like it and I don't think it is the best way to communicate. However, when I am stressed, I forget all that. Once upon a time, I probably would have blamed the kids for my yelling. Now, I recognize it for what it is. It is the result of years of baggage. The kids and I have an open dialogue about each of our weaknesses. I don't expect them to be perfect and they don't expect me to be perfect. Our open dialogue has helped each of us be more understanding with each other as well as all of the other people that we meet in our day-to-day interactions. When I was growing up, it was not acceptable to question the adults. It was not okay to bring up an adult's weakness. Adults were supposed to be the all powerful, all knowing ones. When I saw their weaknesses, it felt like a big huge lie because I had been trained to trust and listen to adults. There were so many mixed messages about the adult-child relationship that I am still trying to sort it all out.

Connie


.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vickie

My mom and I were just talking about this issue the other day. She was telling me that she "wishes I didn't have to read so many books about parenting and that I could just go with my instincts instead." I was thinking about it a lot after she said it. When my daughter got old enough for "discipline" to be an issue, I tried to be "the boss" for a little while, but it just didn't feel right to me. I can specifically remember an incident when I was telling dd that she couldn't have something unless she first did something else. She wanted the "reward" before doing the thing I was asking her to do. I just remember feeling like a jerk that I was going to hold back this reward until she yielded to me. I had thought that the rewarding idea was better than using punishments, because I had heard people say it, but it felt so wrong to me. I started looking for books on different ideas about parenting. I found Alfie Kohn, and I was so relieved that there was
research about punishments and rewards really being two sides of the same coin. More reading led me to unschooling, and I am in love.

I am now trying to explain to my mother that I am NOW going with my instincts, but really BECAUSE I was able to find support of my instincts through my intellect, if that makes any sense. Occasionally I am tempted to try to "get" my daughter (now 3) to do something by rewarding her, but it's nice to have a clear philosophy and principles in my head so I can remind myself that I don't need to parent that way, even though it seems like it would be more convenient at times. Now that my goals in parenting are not to mold or train but to accept and trust my kids, I feel like I can trust myself and my own instincts better too (of course, I know am not perfect and that is ok too). I don't know if I could have gotten to this place without reading books and being on this and a few other lists. Or at least it would have taken me longer to get here.

Vickie





________________________________
From: plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, May 8, 2010 11:05:55 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] parenting instincts?


Someone made a comment about trusting one's own instincts recently, an idea I find interesting just in terms of the wide range of experiences people have in that area. Some folks seem to fall right into unschooling - it feels natural or "instinctive" . I wasn't one of those parents, though, and can't necessarily speak to that experience. Being a big bad authority figure felt perfectly natural and instinctive to me, and I prided myself on the fact that, within the context of authoritative parenting, I could be nice about it. I had to actively learn to be a different kind of parent. So from that perspective, my instincts were part of what was in my way. I had to learn to listen to something beyond my animal nature.

Okay, there's a catch in there, and I'm not oblivious to it! I could just as easily say that being a big bad authority figure was something I learned - part of my baggage, and I had to un-learn it in order to get back to my kinder, gentler instincts. In the context of gentle parenting, that seems to be what most people mean by the word. Is that more true than saying its important to rise above my animal nature? I don't think its either more or less true, personally. I think human nature has really wonderful aspects to it, and also some hard-edged ugly aspects - and all of that is potentially useful and just as potentially problematic.

That's what I like about the idea of principles, in the unschooling sense. My principles aren't the sorts of things I find instinctive, nor are they the sorts of things I can *just* intellectualize my way into being. I can't just feel my way there and I can't just think my way there, it takes some of both. When I find I'm bogging myself down in over-intellectualiz ing a problem, it helps me to step back and feel my way through a little more - smell my kids' hair or spend a day marvelling at their very existance. When I find I'm bogging myself down with feelings, it helps me to step back and think things through.

So for me, getting more comfortable with unschooling hasn't been about trusting my instincts so much as developing a better understanding of my whole process - all the things it takes for me to solve problems. It has been about learning how I learn and respond. I won't say I'm done with that process, I still second-guess myself at the wrong times and fail to second-guess myself when I should be doing exactly that. I fumble around wondering what's the better option when my "instincts" are saying one thing and my "baggage" is saying another and my "intellect" has a third view of the matter. That confusion is sometimes part of my process ;) and there are times when its really important for me to communicate that to my kids - that I'm confused. That I don't have a "right answer". One of the wonders of unschooling is that its okay not to have a "right answer" all the time. Our kids need us to be ourselves, confused and fallible and works-in-progress. That's
*part* of what makes it possible to be their partners, friends and allies.

---Meredith







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]