Rebecca M.

My child (9 yrs) figures things out very quickly.

So, when we decided to expand beyond plain-old-every-day unschooling (ie. the "except for math" clause had been comfortably removed and we were ready to move into the whole life experience), we decided to do it the way Joyce suggests. Simply say yes more often.

Okay, I thought. I can do that. I (we) can simply say yes more often. Yes. There, that didn't hurt. Yes. Again, I'm good.

And how delightful it is to do! "Oh, thank you, mommy," said with a beaming, loving little face and it's just delicious to be on the receiving end of that. (I'd bottle it if I could!)

And... that has moved very quickly into asking for more and more things that could have a "yes" response. Lots and lots of them. One right after the other. Boom boom boom.

I'm finding myself a bit outpaced. I guess I was hoping for a bit more time/leisure for me to adjust (let go) and for the transition to be natural without too many bumps. But at the current "yes" pace, there will be bumps a plenty. And I find my pull-back reflex popping up as my son peels my white knuckled fingers from the old ways of doing things.

Personally, I'm the kind of person who prefers to soak off the bandage in the bathtub rather than rip it off quickly, so this pace (not the direction) is a bit outside my comfort zone.

I would really love to hear what others have done during the "yes-more-often" process to stay in alignment with their kids, even when that may push a comfort level or two.

Rebecca

Rebecca M.

> Can you give us examples of what makes you uncomfortable?

Yes. And I'm not sure that giving examples will actually lead to the kind of answers I'm looking for (although I'd be happy if it did).

What I'm wanting to avoid is what Joyce talks about here:

"One of the biggest mistakes made is after reading how conventional rule-based parenting feels and looks to kids and then declare: there are no more rules: eat whatever you want, stay up as late as you want ... The result is kids feel tossed into the middle of a storm tossed ocean without support and chaos ensues. While it works great to declare vacation from school and just plunge into unschooling, it works better to ease into applying the unschooling principles to parenting."

I think my son will feel the chaos and I *know* I will feel the chaos, I think that easing into it will definitely provide a better result.

With this in mind, we are saying yes to more episodes of Gilligan's Island in the evening. And then we are saying yes to more chapters of the book we're reading aloud, even though my husband is nodding off between every sentence (he's the reader aloud person in this house). So, last night, as he's starting to snore between commas, I declared it was time for lights out (at 11 PM and my son is sick) and there was a bit of unhappiness about that, which we then talked through, briefly, in terms of tiredness of dad and sickness of kid. And I turned off the lights.

And we are saying yes to more time playing Little Big Planet (or any game) during the day. Although, I have been asking for it to be shut-off when it's time for the family meal (usually around 7:30 PM by the time the adults get it together). But this is not an easy thing for my son - he's quite willing to neglect his physical need for food, etc. (I'm like that, too) when he's engaged and involved.

We are not "announcing" our shift whole life or radical unschooling - we were hoping to "ease". However, my son figured it out very quickly and is now basically insisting that we go no-holds-barred ASAP (and gets emotional about it). He tastes the freedom and wants it now. But I know it will be difficult to go this route and I would really love to transition the control while still keeping in mind the principles of where we are headed.

I know that kids often will do the saturation thing when they start to truly hold the reigns of choice in their lives and I expect it. So now that he's onto what is happening, I'm wondering if I have to let go of "easing" and let it happen, even though that will be harder transition. Or should I keep some of the control, letting go of it as it seems reasonable until a smooth-ish transition has taken place.

So my question really is "As your family was moving toward whole life unschooling, and you were engaged in the "yes-more-often" process with your kids, how did you stay in alignment even when this process would push a comfort level or two for you?" It's not so much situation specific, as I'm doing my research on that in spades. It really is about internal process while managing the sometimes uncomfortable shifts in external control, if people care to share.

Thanks.

:) Rebecca

Schuyler

It seems like you may be confusing some aspects of unschooling. Some of what you are having problems with seem to be less about saying yes more and more about accomodating your son. You wrote: "And we are saying yes to more time playing Little Big Planet (or any
game) during the day. Although, I have been asking for it to be shut-off when it's time for the family meal (usually around 7:30 PM by the time
the adults get it together). But this is not an easy thing for my son -
he's quite willing to neglect his physical need for food, etc. (I'm like that, too) when he's engaged and involved."

The saying yes part, letting him play more on the PS3, is good. The other part is recognizing that in the middle of a focused activity bringing food and drink to him is a way to help him continue to enjoy what he is enjoying and to continue to be engaged without getting to the point of hunger or thirst unto discomfort. Monkey platters are a great way of helping a child to get food when they are focused on something like a game or a book or a puzzle or whatever. http://sandradodd.com/eating/monkeyplatter has quite a few ideas. By helping him to keep from getting off track on some pretty basic needs, like hunger or thirst, it will make it easier for him to be comfortable and happy with what comes up.

If someone is no longer able to read a book because they are falling asleep, I think moving on to something other is fine. Is there a reason why your son couldn't stay in bed, doing something quietly on his own? A why for the light to have to be turned off when reading time was over? Do you share a family bed? When we all shared a bed and David needed to sleep, doing something quietly with a really low light made it possible for the not sleepy among us to wind down. Handheld gaming systems are great for that. So are audiobooks. A quiet movie on a portable dvd player or an ipod with headphones, lots of other options beyond everyone having to go to bed at once.

The point of more yesses is about looking for ways to say yes. It doesn't mean that all answers are yes, but instead of looking for ways to get him to conform to a no more gaming at 7:30, it's family dinner time, and you haven't eaten for ages, and come on, you are instead looking for ways to soften that family dinner time idea. Maybe if you keep him from getting so hungry during the evening run up to 7:30 he'll be in a better mood when it comes to joining y'all for dinner. Maybe if you start looking for more yesses you can find ways to invite him instead of insisting upon his attendance.

>So my question really is "As your family was moving toward whole life
unschooling, and you were engaged in the "yes-more-often" process with
your kids, how did you stay >in alignment even when this process would
push a comfort level or two for you?"

I think I changed my perspective, and I'm sure it was over time, to look for ways to help my kids do what they wanted to do more and to see it less as an inconvenience to me. It isn't easy to help someone else to explore the world on their terms, but it is a satisfying thing. And honestly, it is the specific situations that made a bigger difference to my day to day practice of unschooling than the theoretical. Watching people on lists like this list take a specific problem some parent had with their child/ren and spin it into amazing responses, amazing other ways forward, that helped me see how to do that my own self.

Schuyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Rebecca M." <ackirebecci@...> wrote:
>> > I would really love to hear what others have done during the "yes-more-often" process to stay in alignment with their kids, even when that may push a comfort level or two.
***************

This isn't quite the same, but related. I have a teenager, he's 16. I'm not quite ready for him to be as independent as he wants to be. He just got a part time job at a cabinet shop, has a few other odd jobs and work-exchanges going on. He's making friends with a bunch of people in their 20s and going off on trips with them. He's not asking to do these things, just doing them - and I'm not saying that as a complaint or seeing it as a problem. He's happy to tell me/us where he's going and where he's been, but he's not interested in bouncing ideas off me or George - he's interested in jumping in to what he wants with both feet and coming home to talk of his adventures and get a shower.

Its pushing my comfort level, but I've had some practice with that. My kids have pushed my comfort zone before, sometimes faster and harder than I'm ready for, and I'm consistenly more sorry for the Nos than the Yesses. So I've learned to be okay with the idea that I'm going to be uncomfortable now and then, even if I'm not exactly "okay" in the moment.

What has helped me most, over and over, is going back to one of the most basic of all deschooling questions: why do I think this? Why do I think saying no would help? Why do I think saying Anything negative, or quelling, or overly cautious, or overly "adult" would help? Why do I think this is about me? Oh, dang, that one. I tend to forget my kids's lives aren't all about me.

We don't get to pick how fast our kids transition. Sometimes they drag through some stage or other, sleeping in our beds years longer than we expect, or reading "late" or whatever. Other times they launch ahead, ready to take on the world while we're still trying to show them how to read a map. I don't really think about being "in alignment with" my kids so much as remembering to stop and savor them. With Ray, especially, its getting pretty obvious that his being-a-kid days are running short, and I'd better enjoy every cute teenage-boy moment I still get to share.

---Meredith

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Rebecca M." <ackirebecci@...> wrote:
>> I know that kids often will do the saturation thing when they start to truly hold the reigns of choice in their lives and I expect it. So now that he's onto what is happening, I'm wondering if I have to let go of "easing" and let it happen, even though that will be harder transition. Or should I keep some of the control, letting go of it as it seems reasonable until a smooth-ish transition has taken place.
********************

Harder, easier, smoother, bumpier, more/less chaotic - those are all pretty relative terms, and to a large extend What they're relative to is individual people. Sometimes jumping in with both feet can make for a faster transition. That may not be easy on You, but it could be easier on your ds, if he's already figured out that's where you're headed. And it won't be easier if y'all start fighting about it - if he starts resisting each "no" more because he thinks he can get a "yes" out of you. That's not an easy dymanic!

---Meredith

Rebecca M.

--- Meredith wrote:

> What has helped me most, over and over, is going back to one of the most basic of all deschooling questions: ... Why do I think this is about me? Oh, dang, that one. I tend to forget my kids's lives aren't all about me. <

What? It's not all about me? (lol lol lol)

Okay, I admit it. I have a princess complex. I'm the youngest of five and an after-thought (by 10 years) to boot and it's all about me sometimes (my husband is the eldest of three). That's something I've been working on. For awhile. I have a sign beside my computer that reads, "It's *not* personal." i.e. It's not about me.

And I have to admit that when I read Joyce's advice as quoted, I breathed a sigh of relief because it is much easier *for me* to make a slow and thorough transition into unchartered territory than to just jump in and let life get messy.

It seems my kid is a jumper, though.

He did the same thing to me at birth. Seriously. I was not at all prepared for zero to 60 and I did adjust (and attachment parenting, with all its immediacy, was what got my head straight).

> We don't get to pick how fast our kids transition.<

No kidding! That one is right in front of my face.

>I don't really think about being "in alignment with" my kids so much as remembering to stop and savor them. <

We've been respectful of so many things for my son for a long time. There are these pockets of restraint and control and this is what we (I say that like it's a struggle for both of us but it is mainly me) are letting go of. My son has often commented on the inconsistencies so I suspect that is part of what's going on here - he sees the end in sight and let's just go there, already. And I just need to remember to not dig in my heels because I'm not in control.

I like the idea of remembering to savour. In fact, as we're moving back into a parenting style that's a better fit for us, I'm having flashbacks to all those lovely baby and toddler savouring times. I'm so glad I have those memories and I'm thankful to be creating new ones.

Thanks, Meredith.

- Rebecca

Rebecca M.

-- Schuyler wrote:
>
> It seems like you may be confusing some aspects of unschooling. Some of what you are having problems with seem to be less about saying yes more and more about accomodating your son.<

Ah, that's an interesting distinction.

> The other part is recognizing that in the middle of a focused activity bringing food and drink to him is a way to help him continue to enjoy what he is enjoying and to continue to be engaged without getting to the point of hunger or thirst unto discomfort.<

We have always done this to some extent, but with relaxing our limits (it used to be 90 minutes of game console time/day but now it's stretching into 5 hours at a time, easy) and because he's getting older (and I often forget that he's still quite young), I may not think to do this for him. It's definitely something for me to be more aware of.

>Is there a reason why your son couldn't stay in bed, doing something quietly on his own? <

No. He was tired, though, with droopy lids and everything and really wanted his dad to read to him. (BTW, he's already read to the end of the book because he couldn't wait days to find out what happens - another little trait we share). He didn't complain about the lights being turned out (as he was truly tired) - he was complaining about dad falling asleep (yes, we co-sleep). I can see, though, that offering him some options (although we did suggest he could continue to read the book on his own) would have been more supportive than making an executive "lights out" decision (the sort of thing I'd like to stop doing sooner than later - this is my knee-jerk stuff).

>Maybe if you start looking for more yesses you can find ways to invite him instead of insisting upon his attendance.<

Yes. This makes complete sense.

What sometimes happens is he ends up with two appealing choices - what he's doing and the invitation and he's not sure which one to follow through on and it's tough for him to sort it out (and sometimes emotional). But that's likely a topic for another time/thread. :)

> I think I changed my perspective, and I'm sure it was over time, to look for ways to help my kids do what they wanted to do more and to see it less as an inconvenience to me. It isn't easy to help someone else to explore the world on their terms, but it is a satisfying thing.<

Oh, dear. You nailed it with the "inconvenience" word. I've often said that I don't like to control other people, but I do like to control my environment. Inconvenience fits into that little control issue quite nicely.

I've got a lot of work to do. I thought I had so much sorted out, but there are layers. And layers. (I guess I've figured out what's "hard".)

- Rebecca

Rebecca M.

--- Meredith wrote:

>And it won't be easier if y'all start fighting about it - if he starts resisting each "no" more because he thinks he can get a "yes" out of you. That's not an easy dymanic!<

This is exactly what's happening. And I've been hanging onto "but I thought I could do this gradually and it would be an easy stretching vs. The Rack". Again. All about me. Not only do I have princess tendencies, I'm also a drama queen. ;)

I think I need to dust off my "many ways to say yes" creativity (and fluidity and flexibility) so that this fast transition is something I can be easy with. And avoid any nasty snap-backs.

I actually feel more-at-peace with it all now.

- Rebecca

[email protected]

Let go all the way and remind DS that part of having freedom is being responsible. Responsible about using that freedom and how it effects those around you.

Dad has to sleep. DS can turn off his own light. Dinner is ready when it is ready and he's welcome to join everyone or keep playing and be content with warmed up dinner. Or something he makes himself. That sort of thing. Freedom is not about Mom saying "yes" and everyone jumping to fulfill unreasonable demands. Freedom is about respect and love going both ways.

Etc. :)

Nance




--- In [email protected], "Rebecca M." <ackirebecci@...> wrote:
>
>
> > Can you give us examples of what makes you uncomfortable?
>
> Yes. And I'm not sure that giving examples will actually lead to the kind of answers I'm looking for (although I'd be happy if it did).
>
> What I'm wanting to avoid is what Joyce talks about here:
>
> "One of the biggest mistakes made is after reading how conventional rule-based parenting feels and looks to kids and then declare: there are no more rules: eat whatever you want, stay up as late as you want ... The result is kids feel tossed into the middle of a storm tossed ocean without support and chaos ensues. While it works great to declare vacation from school and just plunge into unschooling, it works better to ease into applying the unschooling principles to parenting."
>
> I think my son will feel the chaos and I *know* I will feel the chaos, I think that easing into it will definitely provide a better result.
>
> With this in mind, we are saying yes to more episodes of Gilligan's Island in the evening. And then we are saying yes to more chapters of the book we're reading aloud, even though my husband is nodding off between every sentence (he's the reader aloud person in this house). So, last night, as he's starting to snore between commas, I declared it was time for lights out (at 11 PM and my son is sick) and there was a bit of unhappiness about that, which we then talked through, briefly, in terms of tiredness of dad and sickness of kid. And I turned off the lights.
>
> And we are saying yes to more time playing Little Big Planet (or any game) during the day. Although, I have been asking for it to be shut-off when it's time for the family meal (usually around 7:30 PM by the time the adults get it together). But this is not an easy thing for my son - he's quite willing to neglect his physical need for food, etc. (I'm like that, too) when he's engaged and involved.
>
> We are not "announcing" our shift whole life or radical unschooling - we were hoping to "ease". However, my son figured it out very quickly and is now basically insisting that we go no-holds-barred ASAP (and gets emotional about it). He tastes the freedom and wants it now. But I know it will be difficult to go this route and I would really love to transition the control while still keeping in mind the principles of where we are headed.
>
> I know that kids often will do the saturation thing when they start to truly hold the reigns of choice in their lives and I expect it. So now that he's onto what is happening, I'm wondering if I have to let go of "easing" and let it happen, even though that will be harder transition. Or should I keep some of the control, letting go of it as it seems reasonable until a smooth-ish transition has taken place.
>
> So my question really is "As your family was moving toward whole life unschooling, and you were engaged in the "yes-more-often" process with your kids, how did you stay in alignment even when this process would push a comfort level or two for you?" It's not so much situation specific, as I'm doing my research on that in spades. It really is about internal process while managing the sometimes uncomfortable shifts in external control, if people care to share.
>
> Thanks.
>
> :) Rebecca
>

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "marbleface@..." <marbleface@...> wrote:
>>>Freedom is not about Mom saying "yes" and everyone jumping to fulfill unreasonable demands.
**************

Saying Yes and helping kids get their needs me isn't about jumping to fulfil demands, for sure. Those are gifts of kindness and grace, and also parts of a strategy for creating a more peaceful home. Its not peaceful to argue about a light when I could just as well get up and turn it off. Its not peaceful when someone I love forgets to eat and is cranky as a result.

> Let go all the way and remind DS that part of having freedom is being responsible.
****************

I don't find I have to tell my kids things like that. When I'm kinder and more generous with them they tend to reflect it back to me - not always in the ways that I might find convenient, but they do things out of kindness and generosity as a natural extension of being "filled up" with care. It helps to consider that kids really do like their parents and want to be loving to us - and they *are* loving and kind when we don't throw roadblocks in their way.

> Dad has to sleep. DS can turn off his own light.

I get up pretty early for work, so I can relate to dad wanting to sleep, and we've gotten into a sort of routine where me going to bed is concerned. Most of the time, Mo's sweet about turning off the overhead light when she goes to bed - that's a hard thing for her to do, too, as its a pull-cord, not a switch and its *just* within her reach (we've tried making it longer but George is tall and forever blundering into the thing and breaking it). Still, she does it, and that's sweet. But some nights I say "could you turn the light off" and she gives me a tired look and shakes her head, so I get up, out of my cozy little nest where I've been dozing, and put out the light. In those moments I remind myself of all the times she does put the light out, or turn down the volume or shut the door or any of the hundred other little favors I might ask of her. She's not trying to be mean by saying no, she's as tired as I am, with less resources.

>>Dinner is ready when it is ready and he's welcome to join everyone or keep playing and be content with warmed up dinner. Or something he makes himself.
*****************

I bring my partner snacks if he's gotten wrapped up in a project and forgotten to eat. I bring my kids snacks, too when they're busy. Its one of the ways I help everyone around me be sweet and kind and easy to get along with - I want my family to be sweet and kind and easy! its worth it to me to make a little extra effort in that direction. Plus it feels good to me to extend those little kindnesses - its a win-win! I get to be sweet, and maintain some sweetness around me.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

Rebecca M.

--- Nance wrote:
>
> Let go all the way and remind DS that part of having freedom is being responsible. Responsible about using that freedom and how it effects those around you.>

In my family, one of the ways we parents want to "shift" into more "yes" in our lives is to not make a big deal about it. I have a feeling that if we talk about it, rather than just do it, it will turn into something different than what we are wanting to do. (if that makes any sense at all!)

I also suspect that people grow into responsibility and that they figure that out by watching other people around them act responsibly.

So, I don't mind being the person who turns off the light or who figures out how to accommodate around food. As a parent, I see that stuff as my responsibility. I'm the bottom line. And other people will take some of that on when they are ready to do so.

> Freedom is about respect and love going both ways.<

Before the birth of my son, I would frequent this great metaphysical bookshop in the city I was living in. There was often a guy outside selling bundles of sage. I once bought some and before taking my money he asked me if it was freely given. I looked at him in surprise and realized that I wasn't really buying the sage. I was engaging in a mutual giving with another person. He was freely giving me his sage. I was freely giving him $5.00. So, I said yes and he took the money and gave me the sage and off I went.

So now when I do something for someone else, I often think to myself "Is this freely given? Am I choosing, without expectation of reciprocation, to do this for this person?"

That is how I want to parent all the time (it's a goal - not quite there yet): giving love and respect freely without any expectation attached.

:) Rebecca

lalow66

"
>
> That is how I want to parent all the time (it's a goal - not quite there yet): giving love and respect freely without any expectation attached.
>
> :) Rebecca
>
"

my mother always told us that about gifts. when you give a gift, to do so with no expectations. if the person turns around and gives it to someone else or takes it back or whatever, should make no difference to us and how we felt about giving it.

[email protected]

Well, that seems to me to be part of what is not working. It is confusing. Yes is not always yes to begin with, it must be wheedled out. Everyone is put out except for the person asking for the yes for unclear reasons. Not a happy circumstance.

It's all relative to age and ability and comfort levels but living together amiably isn't only about you saying yes. It's about everyone knowing that yes will always be the answer -- when possible. And when it's not possible, that there is a good reason that can be explained.

So explaining more -- even to the point of ridiculousness sometimes -- seems helpful to me. So your child knows what you are thinking and that you are not just turning off lights tonight but will stop turning them off for some unknown reason tomorrow. Or that DH needs to go to sleep but you will help figure out a way to turn off lights later. Whatever the nit-picky details are of each decision -- it's not a yes until I know why I got a yes this time and not last time. Until I know that I can count on a yes all the time -- under the same circumstances. And that the yes will be no under other circumstances.

All of this rational behavior does eventually lead to a child who expects you to act rationally and kindly and generously and will act the same way in return. But not if reasons are not explicitly stated during the changeover.

We are at the teen stage with the two older kids with an almost-4-yo thrown in the mix now. We are constantly making plans and planning rides and scheduling this or that. But it's in consultation and consideration of the other people's plans. Everything is done to accommodate everyone and we try to make the answer yes as much as possible. But sometimes the answer really is no and the teens, and even the baby on occasion, understand it's not no out of anything but the reality of time and space.

I talked a lot to them when they were young. Why we were going here or there, figuring out how to do all they wanted to do or go to as much or as little as they wanted but still get things done that needed done, etc. At some point, I was informed that I no longer needed to go over the whole schedule with them and consult with them about everything, that they knew how we all worked together -- I seem to recall some eye rolling so maybe it was them being fed up with me trying to be so darned sharing and consulting with them :) -- but talking and figuring things out together seems to have resulted in people who know how to check a wall calendar -- or at least remember that it should be checked -- before promising a ride from Mom.

I seem to have wandered off track here. The point is to be explicit, as much as is required. The care that you are putting into these daily decisions will be demonstrated that much more clearly, imo.

Nance





--- In [email protected], "Rebecca M." <ackirebecci@...> wrote:
>
> --- Nance wrote:
> >
> > Let go all the way and remind DS that part of having freedom is being responsible. Responsible about using that freedom and how it effects those around you.>
>
> In my family, one of the ways we parents want to "shift" into more "yes" in our lives is to not make a big deal about it. I have a feeling that if we talk about it, rather than just do it, it will turn into something different than what we are wanting to do. (if that makes any sense at all!)
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 29, 2010, at 6:41 AM, marbleface@... wrote:
> It's all relative to age and ability and comfort levels but living
> together amiably isn't only about you saying yes. It's about
> everyone knowing that yes will always be the answer -- when
> possible. And when it's not possible, that there is a good reason
> that can be explained.


Well, yes, *but* the way you've written it sounds like a nicer
version of conventional parenting. It won't help people make the
mental shift from keeper of the rules to helper of the child. Most
parents have good reasons for their nos -- or at least believe they
do! ;-) And they explain why such and such is as it is to move their
kids from kid understanding of the world to mom's and dad's "right"
understanding of the world. There are good reasons (most parents
believe) for kids going to school, eating at the dinner table,
bathing daily, not eating sugar, not watching TV and so on.

All of what you wrote here:

> Let go all the way and remind DS that part of having freedom is
> being responsible. Responsible about using that freedom and how it
> effects those around you.
>
> Dad has to sleep. DS can turn off his own light. Dinner is ready
> when it is ready and he's welcome to join everyone or keep playing
> and be content with warmed up dinner. Or something he makes
> himself. That sort of thing. Freedom is not about Mom saying "yes"
> and everyone jumping to fulfill unreasonable demands. Freedom is
> about respect and love going both ways.


can be interpreted in very conventional ways and would hardly cause a
ripple on a conventional parenting board. To help people make the
radical unschooling shift, not only ripples but waves are necessary
to get people turned around facing the other way.

*But* "always say yes (or some form of yes)" has it's flaws too and
can be more like a tsunami! Some people tend to read "always say yes
(or some form of yes)" as though it's a rule which creates a whole
new set of problems. It can move people too far from the land of
conventional no to a land of no guidelines -- expect always say yes! ;-)

("Always say yes (or some form of yes)" was never meant as a rule.
It's meant as an aid to shift parents' point of view so they can move
away from automatic nos towards being their child's partner in
finding solutions.)

Maybe it will help parents not end up in the land of no rules if they
see themselves as having the title "See-er of the hierarchy of needs
and the bigger picture and the employer of greater experience."
Parents' role is to see the bigger picture and use their greater
experience and skills in finding paths (solutions) that avoid danger
and other people's toes and allow greater priority needs (like
someone sleeping) to be met.

It doesn't help build the relationship if a parent interprets a child
fighting against reason as not understanding the reasons. (And may be
why your kids rollled their eyes.)

First, if a child has been raised conventionally, they've been
*taught* to fight for what they want because parents are roadblocks.
In conventional parenting, the main thrust is to stop the child from
doing what the mom thinks is wrong. It's not about seeing the child's
needs but radar going up when the child heads for a wrong path and
perhaps forcing the child back onto the right path. So to the
conventionally raised child, it will take a lot to undo the damage of
being adversaries until the child trusts the parent to be their
partner in finding some way to get their need met. So they will hear
no for a long time when they parent is saying "Yes, but this is a
better way to get there."

Second, lots of kids will fight against tiredness when it means
giving up fun things. In this case, though, it was probably a
combination of tired and sick that made it feel unfair and uncaring
that Dad would dare fall asleep when his needs were larger than
usual! That's not because he doesn't understand people need to sleep
but because his feelings were overwhelming. An explanation would be
irritating. In those cases sympathy -- not followed by a BUT! -- and
soothing and empathy and understanding and comfort are far better.
(If you're prone to PMS and your husband tries to explain why you're
being unreasonable, does it help or is it even more irritating?)

Joyce

Jenna Robertson

I keep coming back to this phrase from another post "jumping to fulfill
unreasonable demands."



Are a child's needs "unreasonable" or "demands"?  Part of respecting a
child is taking their needs seriously and understanding that to them
their wants may feel like needs. 



I think of all the times adults require children to jump and fulfill
unreasonable demands in this world we live in.  Now we have the
opportunity to meet our child's needs, and greet their needs and wants
with an open heart that says "I know this is important to you, let's see
what we can figure this out together."



Because we started unschooling after 7 years in the school system and
have always lived on a very tight budget our girls struggle with
believing that their needs will be met.  This can make discussions about
how to meet everyone's needs almost impossible at times because they
all feel the need to focus on their own needs and making sure they get
what they want.  I started a mantra "Everyone's needs will be met"  or
"Everyone's needs can be met" that I'll say quietly when it fits, even
when I can't see how it's possible for that to happen because I'm new to
this, too :) 



Our girls were 8,9, and 12 when we jumped head first into unschooling. 
We told them what we are doing.  We explained the best we knew how and
we attended a conference before we'd even taken them out of school. 
This lack of gradual shift definitely lead to some upheaval for all of
us.   Our youngest ate so much candy that we could see her weight gain
in a matter of weeks and I really struggle to let go of food controls. 
(She's eating a lot more variety again and her weight has balanced out
as has my need to influence her food choices)  It was really challenging
as the mom to try and balance my needs in the adjustment period along
w/ the girls' needs as they tried to figure out what this meant and how
it would affect their lives.  The good part was that they would call us
on it when we fell short "you're being conditional" and they knew we
were all in this together :)  We were already the kind of parents who
talked w/ our kids about life decisions, and while there were a few
really challenging months, this seems to have worked well for us. 




"However, my son figured it out very quickly and is now basically
insisting that we go no-holds-barred ASAP (and gets emotional about it).
He tastes the freedom and wants it now. But I know it will be difficult
to go this route and I would really love to transition the control
while still keeping in mind the principles of where we are headed."



When we ran into conflict, particularly w/ one of our girls, I found
that the reason was always because I was trying to maintain some kind of
control.  If your son gets what's going on and you are trying to
control the process it is most likely going to cause you and him more
stress and unhappiness.  There are going to be challenging moments no
matter how you go about this because it's a big change for everyone, so
one one is feeling comfortable and easily able to absorb the unbalance
of others.  You may like to soak the bandaid off :) but if your son
wants to rip it off he's going to keep picking and picking at it while
you are trying relax and soak.  Which may mean that in this instance
ripping it off will cause less aggravation for both of you. 




"you
were engaged in the "yes-more-often" process with your kids, how did
you stay in alignment even when this process would push a comfort level
or two for you?" 



I assure you that I didn't always stay in alignment!  But my kids knew I
was learning and doing my best and we worked through it together.  And 6
months down the road things in our house are light years different than
they were a year ago - in very very positive and wonderful ways.  :) 
But that's another post and my girls are hungry.



Remember: Nothing is more important than your relationship with your son
:) and be gentle with your self and your family.  It's worth a short
period of disequilibrium to get through to a better place :)







Jenna














[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Jenna Robertson <mamamole@...> wrote:
>> I assure you that I didn't always stay in alignment! But my kids knew I
> was learning and doing my best and we worked through it together.

I'm pulling this out because its just so wonderful! One of the really marvelous things about unschooling is that parents don't have to be the ones who have the "right" answers, or know how to do eeeeverything. We get to be human - sometimes mistaken, sometimes confused, sometimes floundering. Kids are amazingly forgiving when we're less-than-perfect so long as They can see we're trying to help them.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

Rebecca M.

--- Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

> ("Always say yes (or some form of yes)" was never meant as a rule.
> It's meant as an aid to shift parents' point of view so they can move
> away from automatic nos towards being their child's partner in
> finding solutions.)

That's really helpful for me to hear. We started our parenting journey as partners with our child. I added work (while at home) when he was 4 and it grew into something much bigger than I anticipated - but we were a bit like frogs in a slowly heating pot and we didn't notice the damage that was happening until things were already on a rolling boil. When I sorted it out, I quit, although it took me a full 18 months to extricate myself (very rewarding and meaningful work that fed my professional ego). The main damage was that we (I) started using some conventional parenting techniques to manage family life. I truly regret that.

> "See-er of the hierarchy of needs
> and the bigger picture and the employer of greater experience."

I like that. I think I can wear it.

>So to the
> conventionally raised child, it will take a lot to undo the damage of
> being adversaries until the child trusts the parent to be their
> partner in finding some way to get their need met. So they will hear
> no for a long time when they parent is saying "Yes, but this is a
> better way to get there."

We're definitely working through that right now. I also think that my son is trying to figure out if this is a bottomless well of yes or if there are any edges to it. I'm trying to figure that out, too.

- Rebecca

(BTW, some of you may enjoy this article in The Onion: http://www.theonion.com/articles/increasing-number-of-parents-opting-to-have-childr,17159/)

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Rebecca M." <ackirebecci@...> wrote:
>I also think that my son is trying to figure out if this is a bottomless well of yes or if there are any edges to it. I'm trying to figure that out, too.
********************

Its a funny sort of figuring-out, because you get so used to limits and boundaries being something you "set" that you kind of have to rediscover what "real" limits are. Some are obvious, but others not so much at first. Its easy to get tangled up in wishful thinking and guilt and am-I-doing-it-right? and go a little over-board in the other direction (and that's sometimes part of the process, too).

It helps me to see limits as opportunities to problem-solve. So if I'm wanting to say "no" I can go right to "is there another option?" and "what's the underlying need, here?" Like yesterday, Mo and I had a movie-marathon of sorts and at one point she got really antsy and wanted to climb on me. She's getting a little to big to do that without hurting me - that's a real limit, and also a chance to do some problem solving. I thought about what she needed - she needed some activity and some connection with her mom beyond watching movies. So I hug-wrestled with her for awhile, and then suggested she get us both a snack from downstairs, which she was happy to do, running up and down the stairs a bunch of times with plates and cups for a picnic on the bed.

In a way, that was a "no" - she didn't get to do what she originally wanted, but in another way it wasn't a "no" at all, it was another form of yes.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

[email protected]

LOL -- no, I think the eye rolling was the pre-teen version of what I described -- "we get it already, Mom."

But, yes, there are many times that living as an unschooler strikes me as very nice parenting. Ultimately, I am not going to let the kids do anything to hurt themselves too badly, for instance. If I can prevent it. I've got the car keys. For now, anyway. DH really does need his sleep. Etc.

There are certain limits, different in each family and within economic and other constraints, that really do exist. Feeling for the limits of that "well of yes" that another poster mentioned, you will eventually come to one limit or another. A lot of the time it comes down to being nice to one another.

My experience anyway. FWIW to new unschoolers, who should take all of this and see how it stacks up to their reality and hopes.

Nance


--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 29, 2010, at 6:41 AM, marbleface@... wrote:
> > It's all relative to age and ability and comfort levels but living
> > together amiably isn't only about you saying yes. It's about
> > everyone knowing that yes will always be the answer -- when
> > possible. And when it's not possible, that there is a good reason
> > that can be explained.
>
>
> Well, yes, *but* the way you've written it sounds like a nicer
> version of conventional parenting. It won't help people make the
> mental shift from keeper of the rules to helper of the child. Most
> parents have good reasons for their nos -- or at least believe they
> do! ;-) And they explain why such and such is as it is to move their
> kids from kid understanding of the world to mom's and dad's "right"
> understanding of the world. There are good reasons (most parents
> believe) for kids going to school, eating at the dinner table,
> bathing daily, not eating sugar, not watching TV and so on.
>
> All of what you wrote here:
>
> > Let go all the way and remind DS that part of having freedom is
> > being responsible. Responsible about using that freedom and how it
> > effects those around you.
> >
> > Dad has to sleep. DS can turn off his own light. Dinner is ready
> > when it is ready and he's welcome to join everyone or keep playing
> > and be content with warmed up dinner. Or something he makes
> > himself. That sort of thing. Freedom is not about Mom saying "yes"
> > and everyone jumping to fulfill unreasonable demands. Freedom is
> > about respect and love going both ways.
>
>
> can be interpreted in very conventional ways and would hardly cause a
> ripple on a conventional parenting board. To help people make the
> radical unschooling shift, not only ripples but waves are necessary
> to get people turned around facing the other way.
>
> *But* "always say yes (or some form of yes)" has it's flaws too and
> can be more like a tsunami! Some people tend to read "always say yes
> (or some form of yes)" as though it's a rule which creates a whole
> new set of problems. It can move people too far from the land of
> conventional no to a land of no guidelines -- expect always say yes! ;-)
>
> ("Always say yes (or some form of yes)" was never meant as a rule.
> It's meant as an aid to shift parents' point of view so they can move
> away from automatic nos towards being their child's partner in
> finding solutions.)
>
> Maybe it will help parents not end up in the land of no rules if they
> see themselves as having the title "See-er of the hierarchy of needs
> and the bigger picture and the employer of greater experience."
> Parents' role is to see the bigger picture and use their greater
> experience and skills in finding paths (solutions) that avoid danger
> and other people's toes and allow greater priority needs (like
> someone sleeping) to be met.
>
> It doesn't help build the relationship if a parent interprets a child
> fighting against reason as not understanding the reasons. (And may be
> why your kids rollled their eyes.)
>
> First, if a child has been raised conventionally, they've been
> *taught* to fight for what they want because parents are roadblocks.
> In conventional parenting, the main thrust is to stop the child from
> doing what the mom thinks is wrong. It's not about seeing the child's
> needs but radar going up when the child heads for a wrong path and
> perhaps forcing the child back onto the right path. So to the
> conventionally raised child, it will take a lot to undo the damage of
> being adversaries until the child trusts the parent to be their
> partner in finding some way to get their need met. So they will hear
> no for a long time when they parent is saying "Yes, but this is a
> better way to get there."
>
> Second, lots of kids will fight against tiredness when it means
> giving up fun things. In this case, though, it was probably a
> combination of tired and sick that made it feel unfair and uncaring
> that Dad would dare fall asleep when his needs were larger than
> usual! That's not because he doesn't understand people need to sleep
> but because his feelings were overwhelming. An explanation would be
> irritating. In those cases sympathy -- not followed by a BUT! -- and
> soothing and empathy and understanding and comfort are far better.
> (If you're prone to PMS and your husband tries to explain why you're
> being unreasonable, does it help or is it even more irritating?)
>
> Joyce
>

lalow66

Friday afternoon my kids came running into my room, they had been watching t.v.and a commercial for McDonalds came on, so they all came running in and asked if we could go to McDonalds. I said yes, I was on the unschooling chat so I got off and we left. When we got to the end of our street, my oldest son (8) began objecting to McDonalds. I didnt personnaly want McDonalds either so I suggested after McDonalds we could go to Chick fil-a. We ended up going to the McDonalds across town,instead of the one near us, cause it is new and the kids wanted to explore it, we went inside and they ate, then went to Chick fil a and went inside and ate. One of my sons love the little wooden dollar models from Michaels, so he asked to go there and we did, bought a few models. Then I kind of needed a few groceries and some cornstarch to make sidewalk paint.. Ok so by now I am getting tired of running around after my 4 kids and my yes answers start getting strained. We got brownie mix to make later and they wanted some peeps. Then my 7 year old asked if we could go look at the legos in the toy section. By this point I was getting cranky, and we had already been to the toy section but he had somehow missed the legos. SOOO I suggested very nicely that we go pick out a movie from the red box (on the way out of the store) instead. He went for it and off we went. I didnt say NO to the lego excusion, just redirected him and everyone was happy. A few days later, we went to a toy store and looked at legos.