allowing 2 children to fulfill own needs
glinern
Hi, I am still learning lots about unschooling. I have two boys, 5.5 and 3. Also a baby on the way due in 2 months so I know my energy level is extra low. Anyhow, my boys tend to be inseparable. The younger one wants to do everything the older one does for the most part and the older one is more than happy to oblige to be the leader. This leads to lots of little conflicts over who has what toy, how it's played with, etc.
So this leads to a few questions. My oldest seems to grab math and physics concepts at a very amazing speed but is not very creative in play. (Neither am I). The younger one is very verbal and creative. When the 2 are separated, ie daddy takes DS1 out to the store or something and I have time to play with DS2 he amazes me with his level of creativity. He can imagine anything out of anything and have an intricate story related to it. I don't have to do much other than just converse with him as he continues with his imaginative play. However when the two boys are together I find their play very stale. All the cars line up to watch a pretend movie or go to the parade or get zoomed around the house. Most of the time DS2 will go along with it. However if I'm not right there playing along directly it quickly escalates into a fight over something and they are screaming at each other and there are meltdowns. But I am bored of the same scenarios over and over again. Did I mention I'm creatively challenged myself, lol? Anyhow, I guess one of my questions is either suggestions or websites for getting ideas for myself for play so that I can interject a little without totally being the director. I have lots of websites for artsy projects but it's playing with day-to-day toys I am at a loss with.
The other question is how to foster my boys' creativity? My oldest is most creative with legos and pattern blocks. Should I just accept that other creativity is not his forte and move on? And how do I help my little one have more control of play such that his interesting ideas come through as well? If I comment on how neat something is that he is doing or try to engage him further in his line of thought it seems to me that DS1 gets jealous. So when DS2 is pretending that a car is being mean to another and the second car sprouts wings and flies away then hides somewhere, DS1 will grab all the rest of the cars, start piling them up on top of the hiding car, saying they all have to hide, the play becomes intense, more aggressive, and stops in its tracks. Or he will grab the scary car and chase after DS2 with it making him scream and yell, stop it DS1, stop it, who just laughs and keeps going until I have to break them up.
This pattern seems to be happening lots. I don't want to completely take over play but when DS1 does (which is most of the time) things become quickly out of control. I don't know how to direct things in a healthy fashion. Sometimes I get really fed up and have to separate them into different parts of the room to play with different things. I don't like doing that and neither do the kids who really do want to play together. Suggestions?
Thanks,
Nat
So this leads to a few questions. My oldest seems to grab math and physics concepts at a very amazing speed but is not very creative in play. (Neither am I). The younger one is very verbal and creative. When the 2 are separated, ie daddy takes DS1 out to the store or something and I have time to play with DS2 he amazes me with his level of creativity. He can imagine anything out of anything and have an intricate story related to it. I don't have to do much other than just converse with him as he continues with his imaginative play. However when the two boys are together I find their play very stale. All the cars line up to watch a pretend movie or go to the parade or get zoomed around the house. Most of the time DS2 will go along with it. However if I'm not right there playing along directly it quickly escalates into a fight over something and they are screaming at each other and there are meltdowns. But I am bored of the same scenarios over and over again. Did I mention I'm creatively challenged myself, lol? Anyhow, I guess one of my questions is either suggestions or websites for getting ideas for myself for play so that I can interject a little without totally being the director. I have lots of websites for artsy projects but it's playing with day-to-day toys I am at a loss with.
The other question is how to foster my boys' creativity? My oldest is most creative with legos and pattern blocks. Should I just accept that other creativity is not his forte and move on? And how do I help my little one have more control of play such that his interesting ideas come through as well? If I comment on how neat something is that he is doing or try to engage him further in his line of thought it seems to me that DS1 gets jealous. So when DS2 is pretending that a car is being mean to another and the second car sprouts wings and flies away then hides somewhere, DS1 will grab all the rest of the cars, start piling them up on top of the hiding car, saying they all have to hide, the play becomes intense, more aggressive, and stops in its tracks. Or he will grab the scary car and chase after DS2 with it making him scream and yell, stop it DS1, stop it, who just laughs and keeps going until I have to break them up.
This pattern seems to be happening lots. I don't want to completely take over play but when DS1 does (which is most of the time) things become quickly out of control. I don't know how to direct things in a healthy fashion. Sometimes I get really fed up and have to separate them into different parts of the room to play with different things. I don't like doing that and neither do the kids who really do want to play together. Suggestions?
Thanks,
Nat
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "glinern" <glinern@...> wrote:
*Playful Parenting* by Laurence Cohen
Something to keep in mind is that, culturally, we value verbal ability in young children and perceive storytelling sorts of play as "more creative". That doesn't necessarily mean one of your kids *is* more creative than the other, he just "looks" that way. There are different kinds of creativity and different routes to creativity. Some people prefer to master a set of basic skills before trying things their own way - think of learning to sew from patterns or learning to cook from recipes.
Playing together is always different from playing solo, in the same way going to a stitch-n-bitch club is different from sitting down to knit or sew on your own - the focus on connection becomes more important than what you're actually doing. Keep helping them find ways to play separately as well as together, and find other kids for them to play with, too.
That's really pretty normal for kids that age, for boys, and for siblings with different personalities - and you've got all that rolled together! Whew. Being in the same room helps, being on the floor helps more.
It might be better for you to read about the theory of Multiple Intelligences or about different personality types. Your older boy sounds like he's more visual, while the younger is more verbal - they're different people! I have two very different kids, my older is very verbal and social, and the younger is very visual/spatial. Most of the parenting skills I learned for Ray didn't work for Mo - I have to parent them both very differently.
Like I said, people tend to really notice verbal kids and the storytelling kind of creativity in children. That's hard for the visual/spatial kids who can be just as spectacular in their own way. It will help your older son for you to develop a better understanding of his very real skills and talents!
http://www.newhorizons.org/strategies/mi/dickinson_mi.html
First, and most importantly, does your younger son Want more control of the play? You said he mostly goes along with the older boy and wants to be with him, doing what he does - there's Nothing Wrong with that. Especially if the younger boy is pretty social, keeping things on an even keel socially may be a bigger need for him than running the show. If you're stepping in to try to "give him a chance" you could be getting in the way of the relationship aspects of their play. Woops!
Step away from the idea that the younger boy's creativity somehow needs to be encouraged or protected. When he's playing with his brother, help him get along with his brother. The dynamic that exists between your boys will change - it can't help but change as they get older, and it can't help but change once the new baby gets mobile.
Okay, the "pattern" is really unclear to me - it starts when you try to "encourage" the younger boy? Or something else? That's confusing. Maybe give a really specific example of something that happened recently - that can help in terms of brainstorming for "next time".
Some things to look at in terms of overall patterns of frustration and conflict are - how long since anyone ate? is anyone tired? does someone need some whole-body play (you have 2 boys, they may need Lots of whole-body/ big muscle play!) If one of the boys is initiating running around and yelling, then its likely that he, at least, needs to do more running and yelling overall! Also "aggression" in boys often indicates a need for whole body play.
THAT's something for you to look into, now that I think about it. You said you have lots of arts and crafts books, how many sports and games books do you have? Are you well stocked with things to whack, bounce, climb, throw, jump on/over, crawl through, spin on, swing on, kick, punch, spit and roll in? In general, boys need noticeably more of that kind of play than girls (in general! some girls can be Very Physical too!) which can be challenging for moms, since we don't always think of that naturally. Its also possible that one of your guys needs that more than the other - that's something to look for. As I said, you have two different personalities and different sets of needs to juggle.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>Anyhow, I guess one of my questions is either suggestions or websites for getting ideas for myself for play*******************
*Playful Parenting* by Laurence Cohen
> So this leads to a few questions. My oldest seems to grab math and physics concepts at a very amazing speed but is not very creative in play. (Neither am I). The younger one is very verbal and creative.*******************
Something to keep in mind is that, culturally, we value verbal ability in young children and perceive storytelling sorts of play as "more creative". That doesn't necessarily mean one of your kids *is* more creative than the other, he just "looks" that way. There are different kinds of creativity and different routes to creativity. Some people prefer to master a set of basic skills before trying things their own way - think of learning to sew from patterns or learning to cook from recipes.
>>However when the two boys are together I find their play very stale. All the cars line up to watch a pretend movie or go to the parade or get zoomed around the house.**************
Playing together is always different from playing solo, in the same way going to a stitch-n-bitch club is different from sitting down to knit or sew on your own - the focus on connection becomes more important than what you're actually doing. Keep helping them find ways to play separately as well as together, and find other kids for them to play with, too.
>>However if I'm not right there playing along directly it quickly escalates into a fight over something and they are screaming at each other and there are meltdowns.******************
That's really pretty normal for kids that age, for boys, and for siblings with different personalities - and you've got all that rolled together! Whew. Being in the same room helps, being on the floor helps more.
>> But I am bored of the same scenarios over and over again.If you're in the room, do you "have to" be playing with them? I mean are they clamoring for your attention (if so, they need more attention!). Can you be doing something down on the floor that's not playing? Reading a magazine or working on a project of your own? A big part of stopping these kinds of brouhahas before they start is being close enough to the action to help the kids problem-solve Before they get to the fighting stage. Once the fighting starts, you're in damage-control mode. Its good to have things to offer in terms of play, but its just as good to let the kids figure out what to play with you there to help them communicate. That's part of how they'll learn better social skills.
> The other question is how to foster my boys' creativity? My oldest is most creative with legos and pattern blocks. Should I just accept that other creativity is not his forte and move on?*******************
It might be better for you to read about the theory of Multiple Intelligences or about different personality types. Your older boy sounds like he's more visual, while the younger is more verbal - they're different people! I have two very different kids, my older is very verbal and social, and the younger is very visual/spatial. Most of the parenting skills I learned for Ray didn't work for Mo - I have to parent them both very differently.
Like I said, people tend to really notice verbal kids and the storytelling kind of creativity in children. That's hard for the visual/spatial kids who can be just as spectacular in their own way. It will help your older son for you to develop a better understanding of his very real skills and talents!
http://www.newhorizons.org/strategies/mi/dickinson_mi.html
>>And how do I help my little one have more control of play such that his interesting ideas come through as well? If I comment on how neat something is that he is doing or try to engage him further in his line of thought it seems to me that DS1 gets jealous.****************
First, and most importantly, does your younger son Want more control of the play? You said he mostly goes along with the older boy and wants to be with him, doing what he does - there's Nothing Wrong with that. Especially if the younger boy is pretty social, keeping things on an even keel socially may be a bigger need for him than running the show. If you're stepping in to try to "give him a chance" you could be getting in the way of the relationship aspects of their play. Woops!
Step away from the idea that the younger boy's creativity somehow needs to be encouraged or protected. When he's playing with his brother, help him get along with his brother. The dynamic that exists between your boys will change - it can't help but change as they get older, and it can't help but change once the new baby gets mobile.
>>> This pattern seems to be happening lots. I don't want to completely take over play but when DS1 does (which is most of the time) things become quickly out of control.*****************
Okay, the "pattern" is really unclear to me - it starts when you try to "encourage" the younger boy? Or something else? That's confusing. Maybe give a really specific example of something that happened recently - that can help in terms of brainstorming for "next time".
Some things to look at in terms of overall patterns of frustration and conflict are - how long since anyone ate? is anyone tired? does someone need some whole-body play (you have 2 boys, they may need Lots of whole-body/ big muscle play!) If one of the boys is initiating running around and yelling, then its likely that he, at least, needs to do more running and yelling overall! Also "aggression" in boys often indicates a need for whole body play.
THAT's something for you to look into, now that I think about it. You said you have lots of arts and crafts books, how many sports and games books do you have? Are you well stocked with things to whack, bounce, climb, throw, jump on/over, crawl through, spin on, swing on, kick, punch, spit and roll in? In general, boys need noticeably more of that kind of play than girls (in general! some girls can be Very Physical too!) which can be challenging for moms, since we don't always think of that naturally. Its also possible that one of your guys needs that more than the other - that's something to look for. As I said, you have two different personalities and different sets of needs to juggle.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
glinern
Meredith, thanks for the great reply!
--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
> *Playful Parenting* by Laurence Cohen
I read that a few years ago but it's fuzzy. Will have to rent from the library again.
> Something to keep in mind is that, culturally, we value verbal ability in young children and perceive storytelling sorts of play as "more creative". That doesn't necessarily mean one of your kids *is* more creative than the other, he just "looks" that way. There are different kinds of creativity and different routes to creativity. Some people prefer to master a set of basic skills before trying things their own way - think of learning to sew from patterns or learning to cook from recipes.
I know that my oldest has his own talents and the visual/spatial is a huge part of who he is. I think that's fabulous. But when he crosses over into the free play arena rather than sticking to legos or pattern blocks or something like that I don't think he does well. But maybe that's just my perception. Guess it shouldn't matter if he's having fun. He just always seems much more relaxed when he's reading a book or following a plan to build something.
> Playing together is always different from playing solo, in the same way going to a stitch-n-bitch club is different from sitting down to knit or sew on your own - the focus on connection becomes more important than what you're actually doing. Keep helping them find ways to play separately as well as together, and find other kids for them to play with, too.
Hmm, good point about the connection. They don't really have friends outside of each other yet (moved 6 mos ago, kinda an introvert myself, working on it). I guess I shouldn't underestimate the connection and relationship skills regardless of how play looks.
> If you're in the room, do you "have to" be playing with them? I mean are they clamoring for your attention (if so, they need more attention!).
Not always clamoring for my attention, no. But sometimes running around like crazy and throwing toys around being very loud. So sitting in one spot doesn't work. But neither does running after them or sitting and standing up numerous times while being humongously pregnant.
>Can you be doing something down on the floor that's not playing? Reading a magazine or working on a project of your own? A big part of stopping these kinds of brouhahas before they start is being close enough to the action to help the kids problem-solve Before they get to the fighting stage.
I have a tough time with this. Sometimes the fighting comes out of nowhere. A toy will suddenly be snatched and the chase or struggle and screaming fits begin. Other times it may be more subtle and I'm trying not to get in the middle too much to allow them a chance to try to work it out.
> First, and most importantly, does your younger son Want more control of the play? You said he mostly goes along with the older boy and wants to be with him, doing what he does - there's Nothing Wrong with that. Especially if the younger boy is pretty social, keeping things on an even keel socially may be a bigger need for him than running the show. If you're stepping in to try to "give him a chance" you could be getting in the way of the relationship aspects of their play. Woops!
Good point. Will watch for that more.
> Step away from the idea that the younger boy's creativity somehow needs to be encouraged or protected. When he's playing with his brother, help him get along with his brother. The dynamic that exists between your boys will change - it can't help but change as they get older, and it can't help but change once the new baby gets mobile.
Working on that balance. Who's BTDT with a third? How do dynamics change in that situation?
> >>> This pattern seems to be happening lots. I don't want to completely take over play but when DS1 does (which is most of the time) things become quickly out of control.
> *****************
>
> Okay, the "pattern" is really unclear to me - it starts when you try to "encourage" the younger boy? Or something else? That's confusing. Maybe give a really specific example of something that happened recently - that can help in terms of brainstorming for "next time".
Ok, this isn't the best example but I'm tired with insomnia. :-(. In the car today the boys are chatting about the food chain of fish and what different sized fish eat and how birds eat some if the fish too. Then they begin arguing about how it really happens. DS1 read in a book about the correct order but DS2 is making up his own scenario. Before I know it they are arguing back and forth about who's right with DS1 giving a whole bibliography of his sources ;-). Anyhow, then DS1 sticks his fingers in his ears and says I'm right you are wrong, I'm not listening to you anymore. Then DS2 is wailing that DS1 is mean and rude and yelling his name to listen to him. I'm meantime trying to drive to my midwife appt and not lose my cool.
> THAT's something for you to look into, now that I think about it. You said you have lots of arts and crafts books, how many sports and games books do you have? Are you well stocked with things to whack, bounce, climb, throw, jump on/over, crawl through, spin on, swing on, kick, punch, spit and roll in?
No books and not really indoors. I have had trouble finding resource for ideas for gross motor play without it being ultra organized. Any ideas? I'd love some book title recs or websites. We have a backyard with a swing set and sandbox they love but the weather hasn't been warm or dry enough for prolonged play. I need indoor ideas.
Also I still feel they would benefit from some separate time. DS1, DH and I played monopoly this weekend. DS2 chose to play on the floor near us with his own stuff. It was so much more peaceful for everyone. Both boys seemed much less stressed than when they play together even though that's what they choose on their own most of the time.
Thanks for all the ideas,
Nat
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "glinern" <glinern@...> wrote:
Yeah, it could very well be that they're getting on each other's nerves - kids do that, from time to time, and even pick fights when they're bored. When mine do (and they still do, at 8 and 16!) I take those kinds of upheavals as signals that they need more attention and/or input from me - suggestions, ideas, options... preferably Before they start picking on each other. Its a note to me to be more involved overall, more proactive, and less wrapped up in whatever I'm doing.
There's more good stuff here:
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
Once things get to the yelling point, you could try to engage DS2 somehow - get his attention and get him talking to you. It would be better if you could do that *before* the yelling starts, join in the conversation and acknowledge both boy's ideas - ds1s facts and ds2s imagined scenario. That's hard to do while driving, though. If this sort of thing happens a lot in the car, it would be worth working some extra time into the trip so that you can pull over now and then and sort things out without stressing about being somewhere on time.
Do both boys have plenty of things to do in the car? Car rides can be really hard on kids, strapped in and unable to run around. It can help to have books, movies, soft toys, and/or portable electronic games to keep kids engaged.
A fight coming out of nowhere generally means an unmet need. Someone's bored, or tired, or hungry, or needs some attention or whole-body play (needing whole body play can feel "antsy" - its a stressful feeling). That's hard because once the fight starts you have two problems! This is why looking for patterns is soooo important - your number one best tool is proactivity, getting ahead of the game rather than always reacting.
Is there always food On Hand? I mean right there in the room while they're playing? Do you know about monkey platters?
http://sandradodd.com/eating/monkeyplatter
Tired is harder to handle - I know few adults and fewer children who like to be told "you're tired"! But if you tend to see blow-ups around certain times and can't figure out why, a need for some rest might be in order, and tv and movies can be a great way to get kids to settle down a little. If agreeing on one is an issue, then that's a question to tackle earlier in the day - what movie shall we watch this afternoon? or set them up watching different things in different rooms (maybe one on the computer, one the tv).
Bored is something to have supplies on hand for - and given that they're boys, "supplies" may be more like foam swords or nerf shooters than puzzles or books. Those sorts of things can be good for whole-body play, too. Again, its better to offer those Before things blow up. Notice that they've been doing the same thing for awhile and offer to play balloon-volleyball or drag out a punching bag without a word and see who thinks it looks fun.
The books I have on big-body play are all old (Childcraft books), but I'm sure people will have ideas. There are some ideas, here and links to more as well:
http://sandradodd.com/youngchildren
http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/2008/07/45-year-old-activities.html
---Meredith
>> Also I still feel they would benefit from some separate time. DS1, DH and I played monopoly this weekend. DS2 chose to play on the floor near us with his own stuff. It was so much more peaceful for everyone. Both boys seemed much less stressed than when they play together even though that's what they choose on their own most of the time.*****************
Yeah, it could very well be that they're getting on each other's nerves - kids do that, from time to time, and even pick fights when they're bored. When mine do (and they still do, at 8 and 16!) I take those kinds of upheavals as signals that they need more attention and/or input from me - suggestions, ideas, options... preferably Before they start picking on each other. Its a note to me to be more involved overall, more proactive, and less wrapped up in whatever I'm doing.
There's more good stuff here:
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
>>In the car today the boys are chatting about the food chain of fish and what different sized fish eat and how birds eat some if the fish too. Then they begin arguing about how it really happens. DS1 read in a book about the correct order but DS2 is making up his own scenario. Before I know it they are arguing back and forth about who's right with DS1 giving a whole bibliography of his sources ;-). Anyhow, then DS1 sticks his fingers in his ears and says I'm right you are wrong, I'm not listening to you anymore. Then DS2 is wailing that DS1 is mean and rude and yelling his name to listen to him. I'm meantime trying to drive to my midwife appt and not lose my cool.*********************
Once things get to the yelling point, you could try to engage DS2 somehow - get his attention and get him talking to you. It would be better if you could do that *before* the yelling starts, join in the conversation and acknowledge both boy's ideas - ds1s facts and ds2s imagined scenario. That's hard to do while driving, though. If this sort of thing happens a lot in the car, it would be worth working some extra time into the trip so that you can pull over now and then and sort things out without stressing about being somewhere on time.
Do both boys have plenty of things to do in the car? Car rides can be really hard on kids, strapped in and unable to run around. It can help to have books, movies, soft toys, and/or portable electronic games to keep kids engaged.
> I have a tough time with this. Sometimes the fighting comes out of nowhere. A toy will suddenly be snatched and the chase or struggle and screaming fits begin.*****************
A fight coming out of nowhere generally means an unmet need. Someone's bored, or tired, or hungry, or needs some attention or whole-body play (needing whole body play can feel "antsy" - its a stressful feeling). That's hard because once the fight starts you have two problems! This is why looking for patterns is soooo important - your number one best tool is proactivity, getting ahead of the game rather than always reacting.
Is there always food On Hand? I mean right there in the room while they're playing? Do you know about monkey platters?
http://sandradodd.com/eating/monkeyplatter
Tired is harder to handle - I know few adults and fewer children who like to be told "you're tired"! But if you tend to see blow-ups around certain times and can't figure out why, a need for some rest might be in order, and tv and movies can be a great way to get kids to settle down a little. If agreeing on one is an issue, then that's a question to tackle earlier in the day - what movie shall we watch this afternoon? or set them up watching different things in different rooms (maybe one on the computer, one the tv).
Bored is something to have supplies on hand for - and given that they're boys, "supplies" may be more like foam swords or nerf shooters than puzzles or books. Those sorts of things can be good for whole-body play, too. Again, its better to offer those Before things blow up. Notice that they've been doing the same thing for awhile and offer to play balloon-volleyball or drag out a punching bag without a word and see who thinks it looks fun.
The books I have on big-body play are all old (Childcraft books), but I'm sure people will have ideas. There are some ideas, here and links to more as well:
http://sandradodd.com/youngchildren
http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/2008/07/45-year-old-activities.html
---Meredith
glinern
>I've been trying to find patterns. Sometimes they are not getting enough sleep (can't always do anything about that, they wake up early no matter what, it's a frequent underlying cause) or not enough food. I don't do the detailed monkey platters but pretty close. The boys are relatively easy to feed as they will eat mostly anything on hand so I always have stuff available. DS2 tends to be hungry ALL the time so I'm in the kitchen preparing often. Sometimes there really doesn't seem to be a pattern. They are playing along well then one (usually DS1) gets out of control and begins scaring DS2 or chasing him, or DS2 grabs a lego project DS1 is working on and gets him mad, and it just happens so quickly. I definitely need to work on being more proactive as I tend to relax once I see them playing calmly together.
> A fight coming out of nowhere generally means an unmet need. Someone's bored, or tired, or hungry, or needs some attention or whole-body play (needing whole body play can feel "antsy" - its a stressful feeling). That's hard because once the fight starts you have two problems! This is why looking for patterns is soooo important - your number one best tool is proactivity, getting ahead of the game rather than always reacting.
>We own a ton of movies and agreeing tends not to be an issue. I have more difficulty with screen time because DS1 has a tough time handling it...afterwards. We watch a movie and after he gets this glazed over look on his face and is unable to function AT ALL! He becomes completely uncooperative, can't seem to do simple tasks, rolls around on the ground making weird noises, etc. So I have such mixed feelings about it. It doesn't seem to matter what he watches or plays on the computer, the result is very similar. He spent the morning vacuuming the entire first floor (his choice) and told me he's tired. So we're watching the Aristocats as I write this and I talked to him about the glazed look he gets. He *says* he'll be fine, so we'll see if maybe that's the key, do the exercise first. In the meantime DS2 gets up and moves on with life to another activity without difficulty.
> Tired is harder to handle - I know few adults and fewer children who like to be told "you're tired"! But if you tend to see blow-ups around certain times and can't figure out why, a need for some rest might be in order, and tv and movies can be a great way to get kids to settle down a little. If agreeing on one is an issue, then that's a question to tackle earlier in the day - what movie shall we watch this afternoon? or set them up watching different things in different rooms (maybe one on the computer, one the tv).
> The books I have on big-body play are all old (Childcraft books), but I'm sure people will have ideas. There are some ideas, here and links to more as well:Thanks, that's quite a long list to go through. :-) Have ordered some stuff from the library already. I have tried googling online also but haven't gotten very far. Must be choosing the wrong words.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/youngchildren
>
> http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/2008/07/45-year-old-activities.html
Natalya
play_jer_eyes
Natalya,
Maybe some people would disagree with me on this, but I believe that part of being free is having enough positive habits in place that negative things don't interfere with one's daily business.
So, I teach from a very early age the positive habits I want my kiddos to have. Then if I notice my son staring to slip, but before he loses control of himself (in other words, the freedom to do the right thing) I simply give him a cue of what his behavior should be.
For example, if one of the kiddos starts to get aggressive, but before a fight can erupt, I will place my hand comfortingly on their shoulders. This is their cue that it is time to practice their habit of patience or calmness. If they are still feeling out of control, I will quickly run them through deep breathing exercises with which they are already very familiar (because a pre-emptive melt-down is not time to introduce a new concept or skill).
Then I will help them to talk it out, though usually once they have calmed down, they can do that themselves. If an argument starts to escalate again, I put my hands on their shoulders again and help them choose which conflict management techniques they need to use.
95% of the time, this is enough to curb any negative or infringing behavior. The other 5% of the time, I check to see if they need food or sleep. I use this method with everyone from infants to the college classes I used to teach and it really helps people internalize a system whereby everyone's freedom of choice is protected. Through teaching habits, I do not have to control anyone's behavior, because I've introduced the environment in which everyone feels confident that they can make good choices.
HTH (and makes some sense!),
Tamara in SoCal
Maybe some people would disagree with me on this, but I believe that part of being free is having enough positive habits in place that negative things don't interfere with one's daily business.
So, I teach from a very early age the positive habits I want my kiddos to have. Then if I notice my son staring to slip, but before he loses control of himself (in other words, the freedom to do the right thing) I simply give him a cue of what his behavior should be.
For example, if one of the kiddos starts to get aggressive, but before a fight can erupt, I will place my hand comfortingly on their shoulders. This is their cue that it is time to practice their habit of patience or calmness. If they are still feeling out of control, I will quickly run them through deep breathing exercises with which they are already very familiar (because a pre-emptive melt-down is not time to introduce a new concept or skill).
Then I will help them to talk it out, though usually once they have calmed down, they can do that themselves. If an argument starts to escalate again, I put my hands on their shoulders again and help them choose which conflict management techniques they need to use.
95% of the time, this is enough to curb any negative or infringing behavior. The other 5% of the time, I check to see if they need food or sleep. I use this method with everyone from infants to the college classes I used to teach and it really helps people internalize a system whereby everyone's freedom of choice is protected. Through teaching habits, I do not have to control anyone's behavior, because I've introduced the environment in which everyone feels confident that they can make good choices.
HTH (and makes some sense!),
Tamara in SoCal
plaidpanties666
Tamara, if you're not used to the following style of discussion, it may shock you! Please keep in mind its not a personal attack, but an attempt to consider some ideas from a whole-life unschooling perspective. Ready?
--- In [email protected], "play_jer_eyes" <play_jer_eyes@...> wrote:
> > Maybe some people would disagree with me on this, but I believe that part of being free is having enough positive habits in place that negative things don't interfere with one's daily business.
******************
Freedom is about choices, and from that perspective, being "stuck" in any kind of habit, negative or positive is a lack of freedom. Sometimes adults choose to be stuck! Sometimes our ruts are very comfortable ones - that's one reason change is so difficult.
From an unschooling standpoint, its important to help kids have choices in their lives while at the same time supporting the choices and boundaries of others - that's not quite the same as encouraging positive habits, though, because "positive" is so often very circumstantial.
What are some positive habits? Calm? There are times when its good to be calm, but others when its not, when its better to be excited or overwhelmed or disappointed or angry - even though that might be "inappropriate".
>> So, I teach from a very early age the positive habits I want my kiddos to have.
**************
Teach is a tricky word because it can mean "force" or "guidance" or "encouragement" or "creating a supportive attitude" - it means contradictory things! IRL I know people who would say the above to mean they spank children who don't toe the line! I don't think that's what you're trying to say, but it helps a whole lot to be clear about that.
The other problem with the word "teach" in this context is its deceptive. Some kids are easy-going and pick up the habits their parents want them to have without much fuss of effort. Other kids don't learn that way and will fight that "teaching" every step of the way. When you live with a kid who resists like that its a little easier (I think) to see "teaching positive habits" as a kind of rule-based lifestyle. Rules set people up to compy or resist. If your kids are complying, it looks great!
>>Then if I notice my son staring to slip, but before he loses control of himself (in other words, the freedom to do the right thing) I simply give him a cue of what his behavior should be.
******************
What if he wants the freedom to do the "wrong" thing? This is a really really vital aspect of natrual learning, which is why I'm tucking in to your post like this - natural learning often happens by means of getting it Wrong. Ideas of schooling and teaching lead us to believe that its better to get it right - but that's not where the bulk of learning happens.
Making mistakes is the source of a whooooole lot of creativity! Bad decisions can be wonderful opportunities for learning, exploration, growth and change. Sometimes a terribly mistake turns out to be the best thing that ever happened to someone. One of the ways unschooling works is by creating an environment where kids feel safe to make mistakes - they know its okay to try, and to fail!
>>Through teaching habits, I do not have to control anyone's behavior
In some ways, by teaching habits, you Are controlling behavior. You're dividing up the world of behavior into bad and good - and yet behaviors are both. Arguably All behaviors are good in the right context. So why not change the context? Change the environment. If you're used to teaching in a classroom context, you may not often think of that as an option because classes and classrooms tend to limit freedom as a result of their very nature. In the home, there's already more freedom - more ways to initiate change. For instance, in a class, you're unlikely to walk up to a student part way through the class and hand her a sandwhich that you brought because she's always hungry and distracted - but you can do that with one of your kids at home.
If one of my kids is getting all wound up and wanting to run around shrieking, I look for ways to make that okay - what can we change? Go outside? Move the furniture? Give mom and dad some earplugs? Turn the game into a wrestling or tickling fest? Put on some music and shift the energy to dancing? Blow some bubbles or blow up some balloons (uses those shrieking muscles silently) and play a quieter game with those?
>>The other 5% of the time, I check to see if they need food or sleep.
I'd rather know that first. Spending most of the time with kids, its possible to get to know their daily rhythms - when they need to eat or sleep or run around. With younger children, in particular, "bad" behavior is most often a sign of an unmet need- hungry, antsy, lonley/bored, or tired (HALT) are the big 4 with little 'uns. Focusing on shifting behavior ignores those underlying needs - look to the needs first! When needs are met consistently, "negative behaviors" tend to resolve on their own.
And yet! Learning is about making mistakes, as I said. So part of seeing less negative behavior can involve changing the way you think - about what constitutes "negative behavior".
>>This is their cue that it is time to practice their habit of patience or calmness. If they are still feeling out of control, I will quickly run them through deep breathing exercises with which they are already very familiar (because a pre-emptive melt-down is not time to introduce a new concept or skill).
*********************
Are we talking about negative behaviors or meltdowns? I don't consider a meltdown a negative behavior, I consider it a person falling apart at the seams (and there's an example of what I mean by changing the way one thinks). Some of that can be prevented by helping kids learn better coping skills outside of the moment - breathing exercises or whatever - but not all. Some of that can be prevented by creating an environment when a child has lots of choices *and* lots of chances to feel cabable and connected. But some people have big emotions - and when those people are children those big emotions feel overwhelming! Sometimes those big feelings can result in poor impulse conrol - that can look like "negative behavior" but its not something the child is able to control yet. So there are times when dealing with meltdowns is more about creating a space safe for a child who's falling apart or out of control.
Okay, now I think its starting to sound like I don't think parents should intervene when kids are melting down or crossing others' boundaries, and that's not the impression I want to give. Kids need parents, but they don't need us as rule providers and enforcers. They need support, information, choices, a safe environment in which to try out ideas and make mistakes, a soft place to fall when they fall apart or mess up.
It could help a whole lot to have a concrete example - this single post ran from making mistakes to having meltdowns and those are really different topics!
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "glinern" <glinern@...> wrote:
Have you tried blacking out the windows? Sometimes that does wonders. When you know they're short on sleep it can help to change plans to accomodate that. It can also help, strange as it may sound, to simply Expect they'll be less easy-going. Sometimes shifting an expectation like that can make a world of difference in your stress level - "oh, yeah, I knew this would probably happen" feels different than "shit, not Again!" iykwim.
Okay, you just described two patterns, so here are some questions to think about: Could he need more activity over all? Him initiating running and yelling makes me wonder that. Could DS1 need more space/time alone? Does DS2 tend to be more social overall? It kind of sounds, from your comments, like the younger is more extroverted and the older more introverted, which could easily result in friction. If that's true, the more you can do to engage DS2 yourself - doing things that the older doesn't want to do, preferably - the more you meet his needs while also giving the other a break.
Okay, another question - ever let him watch tv/movies alllll day long? A whole week? Mo's very visual and likes to be able to watch something over and over, have it on all day. She's never had limits on tv, so she watches very intently at first, but by the second repetition is doing other things - but she still loves to have the tv on when she's doing, even if she's doing something active. Its something to try. It may be, since your guy likes visual patterns, that watching one movie is kind of like an appetizer to his brain - but then no "meal" follows and he's stuck floundering around for awhile.
Parents get scared by "glazed" looks, but they're one of the ways people look when they're focused and intent. Watching a show or movie takes a Lot more focus and brain power than most parents realize - we've all heard the expression "zoned out" a zillion times, but its nothing like accurate for describing how kids watch tv.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>> I've been trying to find patterns. Sometimes they are not getting enough sleep (can't always do anything about that, they wake up early no matter what, it's a frequent underlying cause)******************
Have you tried blacking out the windows? Sometimes that does wonders. When you know they're short on sleep it can help to change plans to accomodate that. It can also help, strange as it may sound, to simply Expect they'll be less easy-going. Sometimes shifting an expectation like that can make a world of difference in your stress level - "oh, yeah, I knew this would probably happen" feels different than "shit, not Again!" iykwim.
>>They are playing along well then one (usually DS1) gets out of control and begins scaring DS2 or chasing him, or DS2 grabs a lego project DS1 is working on and gets him mad, and it just happens so quickly.****************
Okay, you just described two patterns, so here are some questions to think about: Could he need more activity over all? Him initiating running and yelling makes me wonder that. Could DS1 need more space/time alone? Does DS2 tend to be more social overall? It kind of sounds, from your comments, like the younger is more extroverted and the older more introverted, which could easily result in friction. If that's true, the more you can do to engage DS2 yourself - doing things that the older doesn't want to do, preferably - the more you meet his needs while also giving the other a break.
>>We watch a movie and after he gets this glazed over look on his face and is unable to function AT ALL! He becomes completely uncooperative, can't seem to do simple tasks, rolls around on the ground making weird noises, etc.*******************
Okay, another question - ever let him watch tv/movies alllll day long? A whole week? Mo's very visual and likes to be able to watch something over and over, have it on all day. She's never had limits on tv, so she watches very intently at first, but by the second repetition is doing other things - but she still loves to have the tv on when she's doing, even if she's doing something active. Its something to try. It may be, since your guy likes visual patterns, that watching one movie is kind of like an appetizer to his brain - but then no "meal" follows and he's stuck floundering around for awhile.
Parents get scared by "glazed" looks, but they're one of the ways people look when they're focused and intent. Watching a show or movie takes a Lot more focus and brain power than most parents realize - we've all heard the expression "zoned out" a zillion times, but its nothing like accurate for describing how kids watch tv.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
glinern
--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
Thanks again for all the ideas,
Nat
>Haha, we have black out curtains, a fan running to block out noise, and I even just changed the thermostat for the heat to start later in case the sounds from that were a signal to awaken. Nope, still 5:30am. It's like their bodies are just used to it and know on their own. But an earlier bedtime doesn't work either. :-( At least DS2 still naps.
> Have you tried blacking out the windows? Sometimes that does wonders.
>When you know they're short on sleep it can help to change plans to accomodate that. It can also help, strange as it may sound, to simply Expect they'll be less easy-going. Sometimes shifting an expectation like that can make a world of difference in your stress level - "oh, yeah, I knew this would probably happen" feels different than "shit, not Again!" iykwim.hmm, i will definitely have to try that. i have done that in the past when I've been sleep-deprived knowing my patience wouldn't be as good and to deal with that better. Will have to try that with the kids as well.
>I thought that may be the case at first but DS1 tends to be the one to entice DS2 to do something. He's always calling him over to read to DS2, or play cars with him, or whatever. He doesn't like playing by himself unless he gets involved in a one-person "job" like legos. But he hasn't even wanted to do that lately. And if he does and I keep DS2 occupied with something else, he is constantly peeking over at what we are doing and wanting to be part of it. So much so he can't concentrate on his own stuff he initiated in the first place. I need to think outside of the box somehow on this one but haven't quite gotten there.
> >>They are playing along well then one (usually DS1) gets out of control and begins scaring DS2 or chasing him, or DS2 grabs a lego project DS1 is working on and gets him mad, and it just happens so quickly.
> ****************
>
> Okay, you just described two patterns, so here are some questions to think about: Could he need more activity over all? Him initiating running and yelling makes me wonder that. Could DS1 need more space/time alone? Does DS2 tend to be more social overall? It kind of sounds, from your comments, like the younger is more extroverted and the older more introverted, which could easily result in friction. If that's true, the more you can do to engage DS2 yourself - doing things that the older doesn't want to do, preferably - the more you meet his needs while also giving the other a break.
> Okay, another question - ever let him watch tv/movies alllll day long? A whole week?We have when he's been sick in the past. He really is not obsessed with movies at all. I mean he wants to watch one daily usually, not even always, but then is perfectly happy to move on to something else...once he's over the post-movie weirdness.
> Parents get scared by "glazed" looks, but they're one of the ways people look when they're focused and intent. Watching a show or movie takes a Lot more focus and brain power than most parents realize - we've all heard the expression "zoned out" a zillion times, but its nothing like accurate for describing how kids watch tv.It's not the during-movie glaze I have an issue with, I can understand needing to focus and he super focuses on anything he's really interested in. It's the aftermath when the glaze develops and he can't seem to move on. Like he regresses and can't even communicate. It's hard to explain. Hmm, I just had a thought. Maybe it's food-related. Normally he will snack periodically while playing and ask for food if I don't have anything directly in front of him. But even with a plate in front of him he tends to focus so much on the tv that he doesn't eat. We are watching a movie now (that's why i can write again) so i think i will try to feed him while he watches, see if that makes a difference.
Thanks again for all the ideas,
Nat
Bun
>DS2 tends to be hungry ALL the time so I'm in the kitchen preparingCan you bring play stuff into the kitchen so you can keep a close eye on them while they play? Then you could maybe notice things before they get upset.
>often. Sometimes there really doesn't seem to be a pattern. They >are playing along well then one (usually DS1) gets out of control >and begins scaring DS2 or chasing him, or DS2 grabs a lego project >DS1 is working on and gets him mad, and it just happens so quickly. >I definitely need to work on being more proactive as I tend to relax >once I see them playing calmly together.
snip
> We own a ton of movies and agreeing tends not to be an issue. I have more difficulty with screen time because DS1 has a tough time handling it...afterwards. We watch a movie and after he gets this glazed over look on his face and is unable to function AT ALL! He becomes completely uncooperative, can't seem to do simple tasks, >rolls around on the ground making weird noises, etc. So I have such >mixed feelings about it. It doesn't seem to matter what he watches >or plays on the computer, the result is very similar. snipMaybe he is having trouble with transitions? Maybe talking ahead of time what he might like to do after the movie might help? Not sure if it would, but just a suggestion. Does he snack when he watches so he is not hungry or thirsty after playing on the computer or watching a show? Would he maybe like to make a bed on the couch to lay down while he watches? Have you ever asked him if he needed or wanted anything while he is watching or playing on the computer? Sometimes kids can verbalize what they want/need..and sometimes not. Sometimes they don't know but just might need you to love them through their tough times.
Hang in there! Laurie :)
Bun
>We've had this happen in our family too where one child knows facts about something and the other child makes up their version of the facts - which then the older child says is wrong and the younger child gets upset.
> Ok, this isn't the best example but I'm tired with insomnia. :-(. >In the car today the boys are chatting about the food chain of fish and what different sized fish eat and how birds eat some if the fish >too. Then they begin arguing about how it really happens. DS1 read in a book about the correct order but DS2 is making up his own scenario. Before I know it they are arguing back and forth about >who's right with DS1 giving a whole bibliography of his sources ;-). Anyhow, then DS1 sticks his fingers in his ears and says I'm right you are wrong, I'm not listening to you anymore. Then DS2 is wailing >that DS1 is mean and rude and yelling his name to listen to him. I'm >meantime trying to drive to my midwife appt and not lose my cool.
>
I usually explain to the older child that sometimes younger children want to tell us what they believe, even if it is different from what we know to be true. The younger child might just want a chance to share their words/beliefs and to be taken seriously. I tell them that they might even wish to be as smart as big sibling, and just want their facts to be accepted and that little sibling could say something totally off the wall and it is okay...he/she simply doesn't want anyone to tell him s/he's wrong. Let it go.
Maybe you could tell big brother that little brother probably admires him and wants to be like him as he knows so many things. And that he wants to be able to share his "facts." And that he'll learn in time what is true and what isn't. But for now, it would be kind for us to let him express what he believes because it makes him feel good.
There are times when younger kids do wish to know facts and are happy to be corrected by someone else. But during those competetive times (when you can tell he just wants to say his thing and not be corrected), it would be kinder to just let little bro say what he wants.
Laurie
Jenna Robertson
"So, I teach from a very early age the positive habits I want my kiddos to have"
Unschooling is stepping away from teaching.
Then if I notice my son staring to slip, but before he loses control of himself (in other words, the freedom to do the right thing) I simply give him a cue of what his behavior should be.
The words "do the right thing" and "his behavior should be" do not speak of freedom. They imply that a parent knows what is right and what behavior should be and so the child needs to get control before doing something the parent has decided is wrong. Children's behavior is a way of communication. If their needs are being met, life is going along in a way that is working for them, and the parent/child connection is strong than their behavior will usually reflect that. If a child's behavior seems problematic, the problem isn't the behavior, it's the reason for the behavior and a parent can support them and help them identify the unmet need and resolved it in a way that is respectful to the child.
I will place my hand comfortingly on their shoulders. This is their cue that it is time to practice their habit of patience or calmness. If they are still feeling out of control, I will quickly run them through deep breathing exercises with which they are already very familiar
The phrase "heavy handed parenting" came to mind when I read this. The hand on their shoulder could be saying, "you need to calm down now because that is my expectation and you need to do what mom wants." The whole process seems to discount the child's experience at the moment. "It doesn't matter what you're feeling, you need to calm down right now." Maybe some children are really tapping into their inner calm, but a lot of children would just be stuffing their emotions and that is going to create much bigger melt downs some where in their life/future.
Through teaching habits, I do not have to control anyone's behavior, because I've introduced the environment in which everyone feels confident that they can make good choices.
By starting at a very young age parents can create all sort of conditioned responses, some just look more benign than others. I have relatives whose children were taught to sleep alone in a dark room all by them selves and not to come out until the parent came to get them in the morning. They are such "good sleepers." Babies can learn that even though they are hungry or wet or in pain no one is going to pick them up and meet their needs so they stop crying/trying to get those needs met. A baby that doesn't cry can be seen as "a good baby."
Conditioned responses are complete control over someone else's behavior. My SIL lived in Bolivia and noticed that the kids there were "good" in that none of them "behaved badly" in public. She comment on this and was told that it was because the kids knew that if they did anything "bad" in public they would pay for it later at home.
What is a "good choice" how do we as parents know what a "good choice" is for our children? Children need to make all kinds of choices so they can figure out who they are, what they love to do, how to interact with all kinds of people, what behaviors cause what kinds of reactions (in themselves and in others).
Jenna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenna Robertson
I'm reposting this w' quotation marks because the Italics I used the fist time around didn't who in the post and I thought it was confusing. Other than that it's the same so if you've already read it and it made sense that time there's no need to re-read :).
"So, I teach from a very early age the positive habits I want my kiddos to have"
Unschooling is stepping away from teaching.
"Then if I notice my son staring to slip, but before he loses control of himself (in other words, the freedom to do the right thing) I simply give him a cue of what his behavior should be."
The words "do the right thing" and "his behavior should be" do not speak of freedom. They imply that a parent knows what is right and what behavior should be and so the child needs to get control before doing something the parent has decided is wrong. Children's behavior is a way of communication. If their needs are being met, life is going along in a way that is working for them, and the parent/child connection is strong than their behavior will usually reflect that. If a child's behavior seems problematic, the problem isn't the behavior, it's the reason for the behavior and a parent can support them and help them identify the unmet need and resolved it in a way that is respectful to the child.
"I will place my hand comfortingly on their shoulders. This is their cue that it is time to practice their habit of patience or calmness. If they are still feeling out of control, I will quickly run them through deep breathing exercises with which they are already very familiar"
The phrase "heavy handed parenting" came to mind when I read this. The hand on their shoulder could be saying, "you need to calm down now because that is my expectation and you need to do what mom wants." The whole process seems to discount the child's experience at the moment. "It doesn't matter what you're feeling, you need to calm down right now." Maybe some children are really tapping into their inner calm, but a lot of children would just be stuffing their emotions and that is going to create much bigger melt downs some where in their life/future.
"Through teaching habits, I do not have to control anyone's behavior, because I've introduced the environment in which everyone feels confident that they can make good choices."
By starting at a very young age parents can create all sort of conditioned responses, some just look more benign than others. I have relatives whose children were taught to sleep alone in a dark room all by them selves and not to come out until the parent came to get them in the morning. They are such "good sleepers." Babies can learn that even though they are hungry or wet or in pain no one is going to pick them up and meet their needs so they stop crying/trying to get those needs met. A baby that doesn't cry can be seen as "a good baby."
Conditioned responses are complete control over someone else's behavior. My SIL lived in Bolivia and noticed that the kids there were "good" in that none of them "behaved badly" in public. She comment on this and was told that it was because the kids knew that if they did anything "bad" in public they would pay for it later at home.
What is a "good choice" how do we as parents know what a "good choice" is for our children? Children need to make all kinds of choices so they can figure out who they are, what they love to do, how to interact with all kinds of people, what behaviors cause what kinds of reactions (in themselves and in others).
Jenna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"So, I teach from a very early age the positive habits I want my kiddos to have"
Unschooling is stepping away from teaching.
"Then if I notice my son staring to slip, but before he loses control of himself (in other words, the freedom to do the right thing) I simply give him a cue of what his behavior should be."
The words "do the right thing" and "his behavior should be" do not speak of freedom. They imply that a parent knows what is right and what behavior should be and so the child needs to get control before doing something the parent has decided is wrong. Children's behavior is a way of communication. If their needs are being met, life is going along in a way that is working for them, and the parent/child connection is strong than their behavior will usually reflect that. If a child's behavior seems problematic, the problem isn't the behavior, it's the reason for the behavior and a parent can support them and help them identify the unmet need and resolved it in a way that is respectful to the child.
"I will place my hand comfortingly on their shoulders. This is their cue that it is time to practice their habit of patience or calmness. If they are still feeling out of control, I will quickly run them through deep breathing exercises with which they are already very familiar"
The phrase "heavy handed parenting" came to mind when I read this. The hand on their shoulder could be saying, "you need to calm down now because that is my expectation and you need to do what mom wants." The whole process seems to discount the child's experience at the moment. "It doesn't matter what you're feeling, you need to calm down right now." Maybe some children are really tapping into their inner calm, but a lot of children would just be stuffing their emotions and that is going to create much bigger melt downs some where in their life/future.
"Through teaching habits, I do not have to control anyone's behavior, because I've introduced the environment in which everyone feels confident that they can make good choices."
By starting at a very young age parents can create all sort of conditioned responses, some just look more benign than others. I have relatives whose children were taught to sleep alone in a dark room all by them selves and not to come out until the parent came to get them in the morning. They are such "good sleepers." Babies can learn that even though they are hungry or wet or in pain no one is going to pick them up and meet their needs so they stop crying/trying to get those needs met. A baby that doesn't cry can be seen as "a good baby."
Conditioned responses are complete control over someone else's behavior. My SIL lived in Bolivia and noticed that the kids there were "good" in that none of them "behaved badly" in public. She comment on this and was told that it was because the kids knew that if they did anything "bad" in public they would pay for it later at home.
What is a "good choice" how do we as parents know what a "good choice" is for our children? Children need to make all kinds of choices so they can figure out who they are, what they love to do, how to interact with all kinds of people, what behaviors cause what kinds of reactions (in themselves and in others).
Jenna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "Bun" <alohabun@...> wrote:
Its also good to know that these kinds of conflicts will re-occur, with variations, as your kids go through different stages. With 8yrs between my kids, the stages line up a little differently, but there are still times when these sorts of clashes come up - one kid speaking from one developmental stage, and the other from a different one. The most recent in my home has been Mo going through a stage of thinking of truth in literal terms, and Ray discovering irony. Oy vey!
A cetain amount of bickering comes with multiple kids. You do what you can to keep it to bickering, and not actually fighting, but know that even when kids have better skills, they don't always use them. That's human nature - adults don't, either.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>> There are times when younger kids do wish to know facts and are happy to be corrected by someone else. But during those competetive times (when you can tell he just wants to say his thing and not be corrected), it would be kinder to just let little bro say what he wants.****************
Its also good to know that these kinds of conflicts will re-occur, with variations, as your kids go through different stages. With 8yrs between my kids, the stages line up a little differently, but there are still times when these sorts of clashes come up - one kid speaking from one developmental stage, and the other from a different one. The most recent in my home has been Mo going through a stage of thinking of truth in literal terms, and Ray discovering irony. Oy vey!
A cetain amount of bickering comes with multiple kids. You do what you can to keep it to bickering, and not actually fighting, but know that even when kids have better skills, they don't always use them. That's human nature - adults don't, either.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
play_jer_eyes
Meredith,
You didn't shock me at all. These are all things I have been considering for a long time! Sorry I could not get back to you before this; my internet was out. (Bummer!)
Some habits are very important and require assistance to be established; they are not things a child would be able at a young age to pick up on their own. I have met too many people (and more adults than children) who simply don't know how to show their feelings *to others*. Does teaching a child social habits mean the child is stuck into a rut of always having to say thank you, even if the gratitude is not genuine? I hope not. The power to choose comes from knowing *how* to do something well and then deciding under one's own power whether that skill applies. Denying the child knowledge of how to do things well is a false freedom and it loses its sweetness as soon as the child realizes freedom and responsibility cannot exist separated from each other.
What I am suggesting, however, is showing the child techniques so that the child is then blessed with truly unlimited choices. If the child has no tools for modulating his own behavior, he is at the whim of uncontrollable factors.
This is, as it were, supporting a child in establishing a peaceful internal environment in the same way that we can put on calming music and avoid harsh, artificial lighting to control the external environment.
I find that as long as I have a really good relationship with the kiddos, as with anybody, we tend to get along just fine. Of course not all kiddos genuinely want to follow lots of rules. That's why I don't generally see a need for them. On the other hand, trusting relationships really do curb a lot of the need for rules.
I see it like this: If a trusted mentor recommends to me that I read this book, complete this exercise, or visit this place, I will probably follow along. This is not because of complying with a rule, but because I genuinely trust this person. If I question the value of the advice, I feel safe enough to ask why. If at the end of the day, I decide the mentor's suggestion is just not for me, I have the freedom to say so and know that our relationship will remain intact.
A mentoring relationship in which the mentor is so worried about infringing upon my freedom that my mentor never offers up guidance fails to help me grow as a person. A mentorship, even one which requires a rigorous amount of work, in which the mentor constantly challenges me to push myself to my very limits while still respecting me if I, learnedly and consciously, decide to take a different path, is beneficial and really allows people to grow.
Because I genuinely see children as people, I genuinely have no trouble with taking on such a mentorship role with them.
The first time my son tried to make himself breakfast, he was not quite three. By the time I woke up, he had spilled half a box of cereal and sloshed milk across the counter, floor, and himself. So, we had fun for a bit crunching the cereal with our bare feet and painting milk pictures. Then we cleaned up the mess and took baths.
So, that day, I helped him to pour cereal and milk into a bowl over and over. He established the habit of how to hold the milk, how to hold the cereal, and how to carry the semi-full bowl to his counter.
Did he make a mistake when he spilled? No! Did he establish a habit when we practices? Yes. He delighted in being all grown up and knowing how to pour his own cereal. After that day, I kept his breakfast foods in a special cupboard under his counter so he could serve himself whenever he wanted, but even though I helped him establish this habit, he has never been forced to used it. Having the habit just gives him the freedom to choose whether to get his own breakfast or wait for mommy to wake up.
Not that I felt the need to justify it, but if the academics ever did ask, I just told them it was the "critical thinking" and "social analysis" part of class. It also helped that classes were generally less than 12 people, with an average of about 8 and we all knew each other intimately as people, so everyone was genuinely concerned for everyone else's well-being and education.
When I am talking about gently putting my hand on a child's shoulder, I am talking about brining the child's attention to the conflict at hand. This enables that child to begin to engage in a dialogue, whether aloud or internally. The child can ask, "Why am I doing this? Is this kind and does it serve my intentions? Did my brother hurt my feelings or am I being mean? Am I hungry? Is he ignoring me?"
Teaching the child how to calm down during stressful moments does not mean he is now a robot incapable of feeling. It just means he now has the tools to stop, analyze his feelings, and decide upon a course of action which suits him better. With your help, he may realize that all he wants is his brother's attention and he can figure out, "Oh, when I'm mean to my brother, he doesn't want to be around me; therefore, I am actually defeating my own purposes. Maybe I should just try asking or play a game he likes."
(And yes, kids as young as three are able to see these connections when we support their efforts to do so, though maybe with less sophisticated language.) :)
On the other hand, the child, after taking that 10 second break, may decide he is genuinely upset and unwilling to "calm down." He then engages in a display of emotion, venting his feelings to his brother or mom because he needs to do this. It is not "good" or "bad" that he chooses to do this. The point is that it is now a choice rather than a knee-jerk reaction over which he has no control.
And the bigger the child's emotions, the more important that the child learn how to work with those emotions, validate them, and move on. Otherwise, that child may be at the whim of this lack of control for the rest of his life. Too many people with big emotions end up with severe depression or just being socially inept and very unhappy. On the other hand, by teaching the child from a young age that he or she does not have to give in to these outbursts, but rather that he or she has choices and options, those emotions become a healthy indicator and the person with big emotions is *positively* passionate and full of life.
This is, of course, incredibly long and I apologize for that. The number of thoughtful questions you asked and points you made, to me, necessitated a full answer. I hope the length does not discourage you from responding, however you might feel about what I have said. I should rather someone disagree with what I actually *meant* than agree with a misunderstanding, so please pose any further challenges!
Sincerely,
Tamara in SoCal
You didn't shock me at all. These are all things I have been considering for a long time! Sorry I could not get back to you before this; my internet was out. (Bummer!)
> Freedom is about choices, and from that perspective, being "stuck" in any kind of habit, negative or positive is a lack of freedom. >Is the person so out of control he or she cannot even control the self a free person? Shouldn't each person have the tools to make wise choices rather than just react to life as it comes? Reactionary thinking is being stuck in a rut, and it is a rut of the worst kind because if the person does decide to climb out of the rut, he or she often does not even know how to make a change.
Some habits are very important and require assistance to be established; they are not things a child would be able at a young age to pick up on their own. I have met too many people (and more adults than children) who simply don't know how to show their feelings *to others*. Does teaching a child social habits mean the child is stuck into a rut of always having to say thank you, even if the gratitude is not genuine? I hope not. The power to choose comes from knowing *how* to do something well and then deciding under one's own power whether that skill applies. Denying the child knowledge of how to do things well is a false freedom and it loses its sweetness as soon as the child realizes freedom and responsibility cannot exist separated from each other.
> What are some positive habits? Calm? There are times when its good to be calm, but others when its not, when its better to be excited or overwhelmed or disappointed or angry - even though that might be "inappropriate".>I so completely agree with this! If a child chooses to calm down but has not been taught self-soothing techniques, then the lack of knowledge is actually a freedom limiting deficiency. However this is not to say (and, shudder, I hope my post didn't imply this!) that the child cannot choose to remain in a hightened state. I understand your concern, because I have seen way too many parents take this to the extreme of training all spontaneous emotions out of their children.
What I am suggesting, however, is showing the child techniques so that the child is then blessed with truly unlimited choices. If the child has no tools for modulating his own behavior, he is at the whim of uncontrollable factors.
This is, as it were, supporting a child in establishing a peaceful internal environment in the same way that we can put on calming music and avoid harsh, artificial lighting to control the external environment.
> Teach is a tricky word because it can mean "force" or "guidance" or "encouragement" or "creating a supportive attitude" >You are so right. That old word, "teach," is a bad habit. I'll drop it like a hot potato!
I find that as long as I have a really good relationship with the kiddos, as with anybody, we tend to get along just fine. Of course not all kiddos genuinely want to follow lots of rules. That's why I don't generally see a need for them. On the other hand, trusting relationships really do curb a lot of the need for rules.
I see it like this: If a trusted mentor recommends to me that I read this book, complete this exercise, or visit this place, I will probably follow along. This is not because of complying with a rule, but because I genuinely trust this person. If I question the value of the advice, I feel safe enough to ask why. If at the end of the day, I decide the mentor's suggestion is just not for me, I have the freedom to say so and know that our relationship will remain intact.
A mentoring relationship in which the mentor is so worried about infringing upon my freedom that my mentor never offers up guidance fails to help me grow as a person. A mentorship, even one which requires a rigorous amount of work, in which the mentor constantly challenges me to push myself to my very limits while still respecting me if I, learnedly and consciously, decide to take a different path, is beneficial and really allows people to grow.
Because I genuinely see children as people, I genuinely have no trouble with taking on such a mentorship role with them.
> What if he wants the freedom to do the "wrong" thing? > Making mistakes is the source of a whooooole lot of creativity! Bad decisions can be wonderful opportunities for learning, exploration, growth and change. >If the environment is set up, there are no mistakes. Teaching habits has nothing to do with preventing mistakes, but with equipping a person to deal successfully with challenges.
The first time my son tried to make himself breakfast, he was not quite three. By the time I woke up, he had spilled half a box of cereal and sloshed milk across the counter, floor, and himself. So, we had fun for a bit crunching the cereal with our bare feet and painting milk pictures. Then we cleaned up the mess and took baths.
So, that day, I helped him to pour cereal and milk into a bowl over and over. He established the habit of how to hold the milk, how to hold the cereal, and how to carry the semi-full bowl to his counter.
Did he make a mistake when he spilled? No! Did he establish a habit when we practices? Yes. He delighted in being all grown up and knowing how to pour his own cereal. After that day, I kept his breakfast foods in a special cupboard under his counter so he could serve himself whenever he wanted, but even though I helped him establish this habit, he has never been forced to used it. Having the habit just gives him the freedom to choose whether to get his own breakfast or wait for mommy to wake up.
> In some ways, by teaching habits, you Are controlling behavior. You're dividing up the world of behavior into bad and good - and yet behaviors are both. Arguably All behaviors are good in the right context. >I do disagree here. Providing someone tools is not a value judgement, except in asserting the value of being competent in multiple areas. Also, I'm not a relativist. I honestly believe that if a child is throwing a temper tantrum, there is something wrong, whether it is physiological or a lack of ability in the children or a lack of respect for others. I do not believe that children raised in positive environments with freedom, love, and respect naturally choose to feel helpless, out-of-control, and anguished. Besides, I choose to be in a happy environment myself and I don't think anyone should have the right to disrupt everyone else around them willfully and without regard for the rights of others. What makes one child's right to choose more important than everyone else's?
>So why not change the context? Change the environment. If you're used to teaching in a classroom context, you may not often think of that as an option >Lol! You might be surprised. I taught at a small private college on a Native American reservation (where I also attended school). Their view on education is very holistic, nothing like what you would encounter in regular Western education. So, if a student was "going through it" we would actually stop the class and look after him or her, and I always kept a box of snacks in the class. We usually opened each class with a tea and a general discussion. If someone needed, we would often spend a bit of time "brain storming" solutions to a social problem or issue, with everyone in class offering their suggestions.
Not that I felt the need to justify it, but if the academics ever did ask, I just told them it was the "critical thinking" and "social analysis" part of class. It also helped that classes were generally less than 12 people, with an average of about 8 and we all knew each other intimately as people, so everyone was genuinely concerned for everyone else's well-being and education.
> If one of my kids is getting all wound up and wanting to run around shrieking, I look for ways to make that okay >Great ideas, all! It is good for children to know that they are okay. On the other hand, when circumstances do warrant appropriate behavior, I want my kiddos to understand and know how to adjust to any circumstances, not just the artificial ones I can create and control. During an emergency, for example, tickling and playing would not be appropriate; I would expect calm, collected, and mature behavior and to achieve this, I would have needed to help my kiddos develop good habits.
> Spending most of the time with kids, its possible to get to know their daily rhythms... When needs are met consistently, "negative behaviors" tend to resolve on their own. >No, focusing the child's energies on his or her own behavior helps him or her to internalize and comprehend himself or herself as a person. This way, they don't have to rely on mom and dad all the time for regulation. They learn to look to themselves with the parent's support. If everything in life is always "perfect" (the child is never hungry, never bored, never sad/lonely, never antsy) then that child has very few opportunities for self-knowledge or self-growth.
When I am talking about gently putting my hand on a child's shoulder, I am talking about brining the child's attention to the conflict at hand. This enables that child to begin to engage in a dialogue, whether aloud or internally. The child can ask, "Why am I doing this? Is this kind and does it serve my intentions? Did my brother hurt my feelings or am I being mean? Am I hungry? Is he ignoring me?"
Teaching the child how to calm down during stressful moments does not mean he is now a robot incapable of feeling. It just means he now has the tools to stop, analyze his feelings, and decide upon a course of action which suits him better. With your help, he may realize that all he wants is his brother's attention and he can figure out, "Oh, when I'm mean to my brother, he doesn't want to be around me; therefore, I am actually defeating my own purposes. Maybe I should just try asking or play a game he likes."
(And yes, kids as young as three are able to see these connections when we support their efforts to do so, though maybe with less sophisticated language.) :)
On the other hand, the child, after taking that 10 second break, may decide he is genuinely upset and unwilling to "calm down." He then engages in a display of emotion, venting his feelings to his brother or mom because he needs to do this. It is not "good" or "bad" that he chooses to do this. The point is that it is now a choice rather than a knee-jerk reaction over which he has no control.
> Are we talking about negative behaviors or meltdowns? But some people have big emotions - and when those people are children those big emotions feel overwhelming! Sometimes those big feelings can result in poor impulse conrol - that can look like "negative behavior" but its not something the child is able to control yet. >I am talking about knee jerk behavior which does not serve the child; it is negative because it yeilds a result the *opposite* of the child's goal. It could be a meltdown or it could be willfull, but whatever it is, it is something that does not work. Crying, feeling strongly, being angry: none of these are negative; they are part of the full spectrum of human experience. I would contend, however, that any behavior that a person does not choose and which makes that person feel truly inadequate or incapable is negative. Negative simply means the opposite of.
And the bigger the child's emotions, the more important that the child learn how to work with those emotions, validate them, and move on. Otherwise, that child may be at the whim of this lack of control for the rest of his life. Too many people with big emotions end up with severe depression or just being socially inept and very unhappy. On the other hand, by teaching the child from a young age that he or she does not have to give in to these outbursts, but rather that he or she has choices and options, those emotions become a healthy indicator and the person with big emotions is *positively* passionate and full of life.
> Okay, now I think its starting to sound like I don't think parents should intervene when kids are melting down or crossing others' boundaries, and that's not the impression I want to give. Kids need parents, but they don't need us as rule providers and enforcers. They need support, information, choices, a safe environment in which to try out ideas and make mistakes, a soft place to fall when they fall apart or mess up. >And, friend, with this I do agree. Habits have nothing whatsoever to do with rules. In fact, when the child has intrinsic abilities to make wise decisions, rules are pretty much obsolete! You don't have to "police" a child who is self-aware, articulate, and independent.
> It could help a whole lot to have a concrete example - this single post ran from making mistakes to having meltdowns and those are really different topics! >I didn't see it that way. A sibling choosing to harrass another sibling is not a "mistake" in my view. It is a choice which detrimental to both children. I think part of our job is to help other people see these relationships between cause and effect and choose resolutions wisely.
This is, of course, incredibly long and I apologize for that. The number of thoughtful questions you asked and points you made, to me, necessitated a full answer. I hope the length does not discourage you from responding, however you might feel about what I have said. I should rather someone disagree with what I actually *meant* than agree with a misunderstanding, so please pose any further challenges!
Sincerely,
Tamara in SoCal
plaidpanties666
I only have a few minutes at the moment, but what strikes me most from this very long post is that its a great example of the problem with teaching as an idea - very little was said about how children learn.
Unschooling is about how children learn! and while people (including children) can and do choose to be taught sometimes, teaching isn't the reason for learning. People learn because they want to learn!
I'll be back with some examples of how kids go about learning some of the things that were brough up in this post - sometimes with help, sometimes not. I think there are some good underlying ideas here, but without examples of kids' perspectives and efforts, successes and challenges, they're not particularly helpful.
---Meredith
Unschooling is about how children learn! and while people (including children) can and do choose to be taught sometimes, teaching isn't the reason for learning. People learn because they want to learn!
I'll be back with some examples of how kids go about learning some of the things that were brough up in this post - sometimes with help, sometimes not. I think there are some good underlying ideas here, but without examples of kids' perspectives and efforts, successes and challenges, they're not particularly helpful.
---Meredith
plaidpanties666
Okay, I'm back! You might want to do a bit more reading on unschooling at the following two sites, since you seem to have some pretty big misconceptions on the subject! But if you learn better this way - throwing out ideas and having others respond, I totally understand, that's how I tend to be online.
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
--- <play_jer_eyes@...> wrote:
Its absolutely kind and thoughtful to help our kids develop the skills they need to be capable in life - that's one of the things that led many of us to unschooling. The question, though, is how do people learn those kinds of skills? Its easy to get stuck on the idea that they somehow need to be taught. They don't - that's one of the fundamental principles of unschooling, that people don't necessarily need teaching to learn. So what does that look like, learning how to handle big, uncomfortable emotions without teaching? Because that's what we're talking about right? what does a little kid do with a huge lump of disappointment or anger or frustration?
A significant part of the answer, if those big uncomfortable feelings are a regular occurance, is changing the environment. Little kids live in a world that's hard to manage - everything's too big or too complex for their little bodies and still growing brains. But we don't have to stick them with that, we can change it, make the house more accessible to them, put the things they want where they can get them without asking, helping every time we're asked, even if the child can get or do for himself, saying yes more often. That doesn't somehow give a child a perfect life, I guarantee it! There are still Plenty of things to frustrate and overwhelm young children. Life is full of limits and boundaries, but we don't have to approach those with an attitude of "get over it" where kids are concerned. We can kindly and thoughtfully make life easier.
But of course, as I said, there are still disappointments, frustrations and overwhelms. Its important to see that - to see the feelings and needs and desires behind behavior. "Willful" or inappropriate behavior is a kind of communication, it speaks of unmet needs and desires.
When Ray was young he was pretty explosive. I met him when he was four, and at that point he had a Lot of unmet needs and desires. I didn't know much about unschooling at that point (wish I had!) but found that what I now think of as the principles of unschooling were the most helpful in term of helping him to be happier. The biggest thing was moving away from seeing behaviors as problems and instead seeing them as communication. If Ray was melting down, it was because of an unmet need. When we started to figure out what those needs were and change the environment to meet most of them proactively, a whoooooole lot of problems became much much smaller - which meant that he was in a better position to actually deal with his feelings in the moment. His needs were the usual needs, he just needed More than most people: He needed a Lot of attention. He needed a Lot of predictability. He needed a Lot of food!
We also helped him find strategies that worked for him, in terms of dealing with big, unpleasant feelings. If he wasn't melting down, but angry, then getting him doing something physical helped, especially if it included swinging his arms (and that still works for him, more than a decade later). If he wasn't melting down but was confused by a social situation, it helped to engage him directly in something fun, to redirect his attention (and that's also still something that works for him, only now he does it himself, changes the mood by changing what he's doing). If he wasn't melting down but was unhappy, it helped to listen to him if he wanted to talk, or give him space if he wanted to rail at the world (and those still work, too). It didn't ever help him to "talk things out" when he was small, although it sometimes does now. He's 16, btw.
Morgan has never been explosive, and has a very different personality and different life than Ray. She's been unschooled from, essentially, the start (she's 8 now) and we've arranged a lot of things in our life to accomodate her needs. In that sense, she hasn't had as many frustrations in her life, but as I said, life provides plenty enough. From the first I worked to observe Mo's cues and see what kinds of help worked for her in dealing with frustration. She's never been particularly verbal, so words don't help. Period. She's never been particularly touchy, so physical contact doesn't help. Period. So the usual strategies nor the strategies I developed for helping Ray haven't been much use with Mo. Mainly she needs space, and often the chance to try whatever is frustrating her again. Sometimes it means she needs to insist day is night for awhile until she runs out of steam - that's hard, but its part of her process.
That's fine if its what a kid wants, but I've seen adults try to "mentor" both my kids and run into walls - my kids don't always want to be mentored, and that's true of many kids. Often what kids want are friends. I learn from my friends, but I don't expect to Always learn from my friends or that my friends will mentor me All the time, and yet that tends to be what adults expect when mentoring kids. Until Ray got good and tall and stopped looking like a teen this was a regular source of aggravation for him because, with rare exceptions, adults don't know how to relater to teens as friends. At "best" they go straight to "mentor" and it drove Ray up the wall. He doesn't want that! He wants to hang out with pals and shoot the shit. And that's normal - kids don't want to be Taught to do what adults do, they want to Do It.
(And as a side note, since it often comes up, being friends with children doesn't mean dumping adult baggage on them - it means realizing they don't have the skills to deal with that baggage yet.)
That's a great reason not to create and control artificial circumstances - ie, give lessons. It doesn't take lessons in calm for people to be calm in an emergency, for instance. Unschooled kids often do very well in emergency situations without ever having been taught specific skills. They're used to an environment that supports needs, so when they see a Big Need they already understand the underlying principles - focus on the needs of the moment.
That's not to say unschooling kids can't or won't benefit from learning specific skills if those skills interest them. Mo has wonderful "hostess" skills for example, that she picked up from movies and stories. She's a more gracious hostess than I am, and I was taught to be a good hostess. But I resent it as a result of that teaching, and Mo doesn't. To her, its fun and kind and gracious.
It sounds like you're probably a good teacher! I am too - and that was The Hardest thing for me to get over in regards to whole life unschooling because kids don't always want to be taught. They want to learn their own way. I learned that to some extent with Ray, but Mo cranked things up to a whole new level. One of her first words was "Self!" often said loudly and with a hand in front of my face. She wasn't interested in being shown, or even helped - still isn't, much of the time. She wanted to try and fail a million times if that was what it took to do what she wanted, and each failure was just one more data point. It was extremely frustrating for me at first, because I could *see* what she wanted to do and see if she'd just... but no - "Self!" and I'd be pushed away.
When Mo wanted to learn to pour I'd give her a selection of objects to pour from and to, various things to pour, set up a place where she could make all the mess she wanted, and then back off. "Self!" If she was holding something by the spout to pour, she didn't want to be told or shown an easier way (Ray never minded being shown the easier way) she wanted to figure it out. Sometimes I could do the same thing along side her, me doing my thing as she did hers, and she'd watch and maybe try one of my ideas, but that was as close as I got to teaching her anything.
As she got a little older, "Self!" became "Shush!" Not only did she not want to be told, she didn't want input, feedback, information, comments, discussion - no words. I learned to speak in sound bites. I could bombard her with words, but she'd shut down to the point of unresponsiveness so I learned not to do that. She was telling me her boundary, and for awhile it was 'round about three words. Now she's much more chatty, but she still rarely wants input. When she does, she'll tell me! But up to that point, no thank you.
Arguably, it puts the focus on behavior rather than on what behavior is designed to communicate. But even if what you say is true, its unnecessary. That's the big thing to know about unschooling, it strips away a lot of "have tos". You don't have to train kids to focus on their behavior for them to learn about themselves or learn how to communicate their needs.
When kids' needs are met whenever possible, as kindly and thoughtfully and proactively as possible, then they are able to find better ways to communicate. They Want to find better ways to communicate; its totally natural for people to want to improve their communcation because we're drawn to connect with other people - that's a basic human need.
Morgan's inability to communicate clearly frustrates her from time to time, generally when her needs are higher (as I said, she's not very verbal). It frustrates me too, but I can't teach her better communication - she's not interested in being taught. What I can do is work on my own communication skills in such a way as to be helpful to her. I can listen/observe what she's trying to express and in easier times ask simple questions, make general comments like "some people do this to express that". But to do those things skillfully enough that Mo won't simply reject my attempts to help her, I have to step away from the idea that *I* am the one from whom she will learn what she needs to know. It I'm tangled up in me, in showing off my knowledge, then she'll shut me out in a moment (and I Love showing off my knowledge as anyone on this list can tell you ;)).
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
--- <play_jer_eyes@...> wrote:
>> Is the person so out of control he or she cannot even control the self a free person? Shouldn't each person have the tools to make wise choices rather than just react to life as it comes?**************
Its absolutely kind and thoughtful to help our kids develop the skills they need to be capable in life - that's one of the things that led many of us to unschooling. The question, though, is how do people learn those kinds of skills? Its easy to get stuck on the idea that they somehow need to be taught. They don't - that's one of the fundamental principles of unschooling, that people don't necessarily need teaching to learn. So what does that look like, learning how to handle big, uncomfortable emotions without teaching? Because that's what we're talking about right? what does a little kid do with a huge lump of disappointment or anger or frustration?
A significant part of the answer, if those big uncomfortable feelings are a regular occurance, is changing the environment. Little kids live in a world that's hard to manage - everything's too big or too complex for their little bodies and still growing brains. But we don't have to stick them with that, we can change it, make the house more accessible to them, put the things they want where they can get them without asking, helping every time we're asked, even if the child can get or do for himself, saying yes more often. That doesn't somehow give a child a perfect life, I guarantee it! There are still Plenty of things to frustrate and overwhelm young children. Life is full of limits and boundaries, but we don't have to approach those with an attitude of "get over it" where kids are concerned. We can kindly and thoughtfully make life easier.
But of course, as I said, there are still disappointments, frustrations and overwhelms. Its important to see that - to see the feelings and needs and desires behind behavior. "Willful" or inappropriate behavior is a kind of communication, it speaks of unmet needs and desires.
When Ray was young he was pretty explosive. I met him when he was four, and at that point he had a Lot of unmet needs and desires. I didn't know much about unschooling at that point (wish I had!) but found that what I now think of as the principles of unschooling were the most helpful in term of helping him to be happier. The biggest thing was moving away from seeing behaviors as problems and instead seeing them as communication. If Ray was melting down, it was because of an unmet need. When we started to figure out what those needs were and change the environment to meet most of them proactively, a whoooooole lot of problems became much much smaller - which meant that he was in a better position to actually deal with his feelings in the moment. His needs were the usual needs, he just needed More than most people: He needed a Lot of attention. He needed a Lot of predictability. He needed a Lot of food!
We also helped him find strategies that worked for him, in terms of dealing with big, unpleasant feelings. If he wasn't melting down, but angry, then getting him doing something physical helped, especially if it included swinging his arms (and that still works for him, more than a decade later). If he wasn't melting down but was confused by a social situation, it helped to engage him directly in something fun, to redirect his attention (and that's also still something that works for him, only now he does it himself, changes the mood by changing what he's doing). If he wasn't melting down but was unhappy, it helped to listen to him if he wanted to talk, or give him space if he wanted to rail at the world (and those still work, too). It didn't ever help him to "talk things out" when he was small, although it sometimes does now. He's 16, btw.
Morgan has never been explosive, and has a very different personality and different life than Ray. She's been unschooled from, essentially, the start (she's 8 now) and we've arranged a lot of things in our life to accomodate her needs. In that sense, she hasn't had as many frustrations in her life, but as I said, life provides plenty enough. From the first I worked to observe Mo's cues and see what kinds of help worked for her in dealing with frustration. She's never been particularly verbal, so words don't help. Period. She's never been particularly touchy, so physical contact doesn't help. Period. So the usual strategies nor the strategies I developed for helping Ray haven't been much use with Mo. Mainly she needs space, and often the chance to try whatever is frustrating her again. Sometimes it means she needs to insist day is night for awhile until she runs out of steam - that's hard, but its part of her process.
> Because I genuinely see children as people, I genuinely have no trouble with taking on such a mentorship role with them.***********************
That's fine if its what a kid wants, but I've seen adults try to "mentor" both my kids and run into walls - my kids don't always want to be mentored, and that's true of many kids. Often what kids want are friends. I learn from my friends, but I don't expect to Always learn from my friends or that my friends will mentor me All the time, and yet that tends to be what adults expect when mentoring kids. Until Ray got good and tall and stopped looking like a teen this was a regular source of aggravation for him because, with rare exceptions, adults don't know how to relater to teens as friends. At "best" they go straight to "mentor" and it drove Ray up the wall. He doesn't want that! He wants to hang out with pals and shoot the shit. And that's normal - kids don't want to be Taught to do what adults do, they want to Do It.
(And as a side note, since it often comes up, being friends with children doesn't mean dumping adult baggage on them - it means realizing they don't have the skills to deal with that baggage yet.)
>>when circumstances do warrant appropriate behavior, I want my kiddos to understand and know how to adjust to any circumstances, not just the artificial ones I can create and control.******************
That's a great reason not to create and control artificial circumstances - ie, give lessons. It doesn't take lessons in calm for people to be calm in an emergency, for instance. Unschooled kids often do very well in emergency situations without ever having been taught specific skills. They're used to an environment that supports needs, so when they see a Big Need they already understand the underlying principles - focus on the needs of the moment.
That's not to say unschooling kids can't or won't benefit from learning specific skills if those skills interest them. Mo has wonderful "hostess" skills for example, that she picked up from movies and stories. She's a more gracious hostess than I am, and I was taught to be a good hostess. But I resent it as a result of that teaching, and Mo doesn't. To her, its fun and kind and gracious.
>>> The first time my son tried to make himself breakfast, he was not quite three. By the time I woke up, he had spilled half a box of cereal and sloshed milk across the counter, floor, and himself...*********************
>So, that day, I helped him to pour cereal and milk into a bowl over and over. He established the habit of how to hold the milk, how to hold the cereal, and how to carry the semi-full bowl to his counter.
It sounds like you're probably a good teacher! I am too - and that was The Hardest thing for me to get over in regards to whole life unschooling because kids don't always want to be taught. They want to learn their own way. I learned that to some extent with Ray, but Mo cranked things up to a whole new level. One of her first words was "Self!" often said loudly and with a hand in front of my face. She wasn't interested in being shown, or even helped - still isn't, much of the time. She wanted to try and fail a million times if that was what it took to do what she wanted, and each failure was just one more data point. It was extremely frustrating for me at first, because I could *see* what she wanted to do and see if she'd just... but no - "Self!" and I'd be pushed away.
When Mo wanted to learn to pour I'd give her a selection of objects to pour from and to, various things to pour, set up a place where she could make all the mess she wanted, and then back off. "Self!" If she was holding something by the spout to pour, she didn't want to be told or shown an easier way (Ray never minded being shown the easier way) she wanted to figure it out. Sometimes I could do the same thing along side her, me doing my thing as she did hers, and she'd watch and maybe try one of my ideas, but that was as close as I got to teaching her anything.
As she got a little older, "Self!" became "Shush!" Not only did she not want to be told, she didn't want input, feedback, information, comments, discussion - no words. I learned to speak in sound bites. I could bombard her with words, but she'd shut down to the point of unresponsiveness so I learned not to do that. She was telling me her boundary, and for awhile it was 'round about three words. Now she's much more chatty, but she still rarely wants input. When she does, she'll tell me! But up to that point, no thank you.
>>focusing the child's energies on his or her own behavior helps him or her to internalize and comprehend himself or herself as a person.******************
Arguably, it puts the focus on behavior rather than on what behavior is designed to communicate. But even if what you say is true, its unnecessary. That's the big thing to know about unschooling, it strips away a lot of "have tos". You don't have to train kids to focus on their behavior for them to learn about themselves or learn how to communicate their needs.
When kids' needs are met whenever possible, as kindly and thoughtfully and proactively as possible, then they are able to find better ways to communicate. They Want to find better ways to communicate; its totally natural for people to want to improve their communcation because we're drawn to connect with other people - that's a basic human need.
Morgan's inability to communicate clearly frustrates her from time to time, generally when her needs are higher (as I said, she's not very verbal). It frustrates me too, but I can't teach her better communication - she's not interested in being taught. What I can do is work on my own communication skills in such a way as to be helpful to her. I can listen/observe what she's trying to express and in easier times ask simple questions, make general comments like "some people do this to express that". But to do those things skillfully enough that Mo won't simply reject my attempts to help her, I have to step away from the idea that *I* am the one from whom she will learn what she needs to know. It I'm tangled up in me, in showing off my knowledge, then she'll shut me out in a moment (and I Love showing off my knowledge as anyone on this list can tell you ;)).
>>so please pose any further challenges!Just to be clear, please keep in mind that this list is about whole life unschooling, where one of the givens is that children do not necessarily need to be taught in order to learn what they need to know. If *your* learning style is to pose challenges and be met with other challenges, than that's fine, but its not a place for you to "teach" what you know about teaching children.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)