Un-schooling Dad seeking insight...
Elli
Hi all -
This is a message from Rob, not Elli, although it is going out on Elli's email...
Help!! I am feeling crazy!!
It's been a year now since we started unschooling, which was one month after we started homeschooling. My wife started this adventure and now she is back to work fulltime. I am home with the kids. Well, kinda home. I am also finishing up some projects and looking at new projects in my cabinet making business. I feel excited now that we've got a steady income from my wife and extra money coming in from my business. I can see our savings going up, after fully depleting it while my wife was home for 18 months. Sometimes I wish the kids were back in school so I could focus on my business.
Anyway, I am trying to juggle this small business and my un-schooling kids. When business is slow, I stay home with them during the week. Recently I was home with them. I spent my time playing with them and fixing up our house. We hope to refinance so we can buy land, then build a home I design on the land in the country, and sell our city home and move closer to my wife's work (she's commuting an hour now).
This week work has been full. I am feeling distracted by running back and forth from my shop (5 minutes away) and home to check on the kids who may be sleeping after being up all night or may be awake and hungry, who knows!
I see lots of growth in my daughter (12) who is an artist and maker of things. She also researches things and talks about her interests. What she is doing really makes sense to me, probably because I am also a researcher of things and an artist too.
My son, who is 9 today, watches TV all day or plays on-line video games. He doesn't want to leave the house, says he hates driving anywhere. I get soooo bored sitting around with him. He's not doing anything!! I am wondering if he is really learning anything or in 9 years will I have an 18 year old who can't even read a ruler to measure something or do simple math?
He has learned to read some from the video games but asks me to read stuff written in script because he can't read script. Is he going to need me to read script for him forever??!!
If I am going to be home with the kids I'd really like to be going somewhere with them, not sitting around the house playing video games all day. If we are out and about, I imagine that they will be learning things and growing from the new experiences.
My wife says my son is learning things while he plays on-line. She says he talks about life and his observations. She judges that to be learning. She says he needs time alone and when or if he is ready, he'll get out there and make friends. I disagree. I think he is isolating himself and that this isolation is damaging to him.
She also says that he does things like day dream or play with his sister. And, that is all learning and growing too, according to her. I don't see much of this. I just see the TV watching and on-line game playing.
My wife started working full time in November. At first I was taking the kids to my father-in-law during November and December so I could focus on work. Sometimes they would sleep all day there, having been up all night at home. They always argued with me on the way to Pop's house.
During the past month, I've kept the kids home. Sometimes I am home with them. Sometimes I am at my shop 5 minutes away. If I am at the shop, I am thinking about the. The original plan was to move my tools into the garage so I could be working close by while the kids did their thing. Now I am thinking that they will distract me from getting my work done if I've got a shop set up in the garage.
To help me stay focused at work, I could start taking the kids to my in-laws again, but the kids don't like going there. They say it is boring. And, my in-laws don't really support the radical un-schooling we are trying to do.
I need to work some because my wife's income covers only 80% of our current expenses. Once we sell our house and move to the country, her salary will cover our expenses. We hope to make the move over the course of this next year, but we'll need my income while we've refinanced for the land and before built our new house and sold our current one. We think this will take a year.
What insight am I missing here?
What is the right thing for my son?
Will he grow up to be a hermit who can't do math or read a handwritten note?
Will he be angry with me that I didn't make him go to school and learn stuff?
Will he be a failure?
What if he never has any friends or refuses to drive anywhere?
Will I always be supporting him?
Will he ever get a job or earn an income?
Also, finance and house related:
Will the transition to a rural life work for us?
We've had financial trouble in the past and the economy is bad now will we be able to make things work for us over the next year of selling and building or will we find ourselves in worse financial shape?
Putting it all together
Can I juggle the designing and building of the new house with the selling of the old house AND the unschooling of the kids????
My fears are working on me and making it difficult for me to be the gentle, open parent that I want to be.
Thanks,
Rob
Dad to Peter (9) and Sophia (12)
This is a message from Rob, not Elli, although it is going out on Elli's email...
Help!! I am feeling crazy!!
It's been a year now since we started unschooling, which was one month after we started homeschooling. My wife started this adventure and now she is back to work fulltime. I am home with the kids. Well, kinda home. I am also finishing up some projects and looking at new projects in my cabinet making business. I feel excited now that we've got a steady income from my wife and extra money coming in from my business. I can see our savings going up, after fully depleting it while my wife was home for 18 months. Sometimes I wish the kids were back in school so I could focus on my business.
Anyway, I am trying to juggle this small business and my un-schooling kids. When business is slow, I stay home with them during the week. Recently I was home with them. I spent my time playing with them and fixing up our house. We hope to refinance so we can buy land, then build a home I design on the land in the country, and sell our city home and move closer to my wife's work (she's commuting an hour now).
This week work has been full. I am feeling distracted by running back and forth from my shop (5 minutes away) and home to check on the kids who may be sleeping after being up all night or may be awake and hungry, who knows!
I see lots of growth in my daughter (12) who is an artist and maker of things. She also researches things and talks about her interests. What she is doing really makes sense to me, probably because I am also a researcher of things and an artist too.
My son, who is 9 today, watches TV all day or plays on-line video games. He doesn't want to leave the house, says he hates driving anywhere. I get soooo bored sitting around with him. He's not doing anything!! I am wondering if he is really learning anything or in 9 years will I have an 18 year old who can't even read a ruler to measure something or do simple math?
He has learned to read some from the video games but asks me to read stuff written in script because he can't read script. Is he going to need me to read script for him forever??!!
If I am going to be home with the kids I'd really like to be going somewhere with them, not sitting around the house playing video games all day. If we are out and about, I imagine that they will be learning things and growing from the new experiences.
My wife says my son is learning things while he plays on-line. She says he talks about life and his observations. She judges that to be learning. She says he needs time alone and when or if he is ready, he'll get out there and make friends. I disagree. I think he is isolating himself and that this isolation is damaging to him.
She also says that he does things like day dream or play with his sister. And, that is all learning and growing too, according to her. I don't see much of this. I just see the TV watching and on-line game playing.
My wife started working full time in November. At first I was taking the kids to my father-in-law during November and December so I could focus on work. Sometimes they would sleep all day there, having been up all night at home. They always argued with me on the way to Pop's house.
During the past month, I've kept the kids home. Sometimes I am home with them. Sometimes I am at my shop 5 minutes away. If I am at the shop, I am thinking about the. The original plan was to move my tools into the garage so I could be working close by while the kids did their thing. Now I am thinking that they will distract me from getting my work done if I've got a shop set up in the garage.
To help me stay focused at work, I could start taking the kids to my in-laws again, but the kids don't like going there. They say it is boring. And, my in-laws don't really support the radical un-schooling we are trying to do.
I need to work some because my wife's income covers only 80% of our current expenses. Once we sell our house and move to the country, her salary will cover our expenses. We hope to make the move over the course of this next year, but we'll need my income while we've refinanced for the land and before built our new house and sold our current one. We think this will take a year.
What insight am I missing here?
What is the right thing for my son?
Will he grow up to be a hermit who can't do math or read a handwritten note?
Will he be angry with me that I didn't make him go to school and learn stuff?
Will he be a failure?
What if he never has any friends or refuses to drive anywhere?
Will I always be supporting him?
Will he ever get a job or earn an income?
Also, finance and house related:
Will the transition to a rural life work for us?
We've had financial trouble in the past and the economy is bad now will we be able to make things work for us over the next year of selling and building or will we find ourselves in worse financial shape?
Putting it all together
Can I juggle the designing and building of the new house with the selling of the old house AND the unschooling of the kids????
My fears are working on me and making it difficult for me to be the gentle, open parent that I want to be.
Thanks,
Rob
Dad to Peter (9) and Sophia (12)
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 29, 2010, at 2:14 PM, Elli wrote:
don't-know-what-you're-talking-about questions all day! ;-) I'll try
to respond tomorrow but there's lots of ideas for thought here that
should help:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
Scroll down the left side and there are several pages about TV and
video games. (Sorry, but you're not asking anything new! ;-)
And there's lots of wisdom from lots of different people at:
http://sandradodd.com/tv
http://sandradodd.com/videogames/
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I just see the TV watching and on-line game playing.I hope someone responds but it seems I've been answering you-guys-
don't-know-what-you're-talking-about questions all day! ;-) I'll try
to respond tomorrow but there's lots of ideas for thought here that
should help:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
Scroll down the left side and there are several pages about TV and
video games. (Sorry, but you're not asking anything new! ;-)
And there's lots of wisdom from lots of different people at:
http://sandradodd.com/tv
http://sandradodd.com/videogames/
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenna Robertson
Will he grow up to be a hermit who can't do math or read a handwritten note?
Will he be angry with me that I didn't make him go to school and learn stuff?
Will he be a failure?
What if he never has any friends or refuses to drive anywhere?
Will I always be supporting him?
Will he ever get a job or earn an income?
:) You are right, your fears are working on you. What would happen if you let go of your fears?
Your son is 9. You are worrying about when he's 20. If you let go of your fears and focus on what you enjoy about your son, building a fun and loving and involved relationship with him that will make right now better. And from what I hear from experienced unschoolers w/ grown kids, it will make things better when he's 20, too.
You say your daughter is an artist and you are too, so you "get" her. Think if you worked as a doctor and you were into science and math, you might look at your daughter's activities as totally useless and wasting valuable time when she could be preparing for a "real" career.
You haven't been unschooling for very long and it sounds like part of that time was spent in a non-unschooling environment at the in-laws. My guess is that your son is still deschooling. Deschooling takes time and I know that in our house there were various set backs in the process, mostly when I didn't honor my children's choices/tried to get some sort of control
Do you have a phone at the shop? There should be a way for your kids to contact you there. If there isn't, figure that out. Even walkie-talkies would work. If you and your kids both know you are 5 minutes away and available if needed that should make it possible for you to focus on your work. If they can trust that you are there for them, and you can trust that they will let you know if they have needs that makes it a lot easier. However, you have to have established that trust in the relationships.
As Joyce pointed out, a lot of your questions have been answered over and over again on-line. Poke around, check out Sandra Dodd's site and Joyce's site. Do you really think you'll have to read your son script forever?? Nothing lasts forever :) all the more reason to start enjoying the now!
As for the larger life questions at the end of your post - those are questions only you can answer or perhaps things you'll find out over time. None of us have a crystal ball and we don't know you personally so there's no way for us to know about your financial future,.
As far as juggling it all - a lot of people do it :) How excited about the move are the kids? Are they interested in being involved? It's not separate from unschooling.
:)
Jenna
"What's the matter with you? All it takes is faith and trust. Oh! And something I forgot. Dust!"......
" Yep, just a little bit of pixie dust. Now, think of the happiest things. It's the same as having wings." - Peter Pan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Will he be angry with me that I didn't make him go to school and learn stuff?
Will he be a failure?
What if he never has any friends or refuses to drive anywhere?
Will I always be supporting him?
Will he ever get a job or earn an income?
:) You are right, your fears are working on you. What would happen if you let go of your fears?
Your son is 9. You are worrying about when he's 20. If you let go of your fears and focus on what you enjoy about your son, building a fun and loving and involved relationship with him that will make right now better. And from what I hear from experienced unschoolers w/ grown kids, it will make things better when he's 20, too.
You say your daughter is an artist and you are too, so you "get" her. Think if you worked as a doctor and you were into science and math, you might look at your daughter's activities as totally useless and wasting valuable time when she could be preparing for a "real" career.
You haven't been unschooling for very long and it sounds like part of that time was spent in a non-unschooling environment at the in-laws. My guess is that your son is still deschooling. Deschooling takes time and I know that in our house there were various set backs in the process, mostly when I didn't honor my children's choices/tried to get some sort of control
Do you have a phone at the shop? There should be a way for your kids to contact you there. If there isn't, figure that out. Even walkie-talkies would work. If you and your kids both know you are 5 minutes away and available if needed that should make it possible for you to focus on your work. If they can trust that you are there for them, and you can trust that they will let you know if they have needs that makes it a lot easier. However, you have to have established that trust in the relationships.
As Joyce pointed out, a lot of your questions have been answered over and over again on-line. Poke around, check out Sandra Dodd's site and Joyce's site. Do you really think you'll have to read your son script forever?? Nothing lasts forever :) all the more reason to start enjoying the now!
As for the larger life questions at the end of your post - those are questions only you can answer or perhaps things you'll find out over time. None of us have a crystal ball and we don't know you personally so there's no way for us to know about your financial future,.
As far as juggling it all - a lot of people do it :) How excited about the move are the kids? Are they interested in being involved? It's not separate from unschooling.
:)
Jenna
"What's the matter with you? All it takes is faith and trust. Oh! And something I forgot. Dust!"......
" Yep, just a little bit of pixie dust. Now, think of the happiest things. It's the same as having wings." - Peter Pan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
heather
May I suggest the SSUD's Yahoo group? (Secret Society of Unschooling Dads) It's a men only group and I'm pretty sure there are also a few stay at home dads as well. :-)
Heather
www.swissarmywife.net
Heather
www.swissarmywife.net
--- In [email protected], "Elli" <elinorsparks@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all -
>
> This is a message from Rob, not Elli, although it is going out on Elli's email...
>
> Help!! I am feeling crazy!!
>
> It's been a year now since we started unschooling, which was one month after we started homeschooling. My wife started this adventure and now she is back to work fulltime. I am home with the kids. Well, kinda home. I am also finishing up some projects and looking at new projects in my cabinet making business. I feel excited now that we've got a steady income from my wife and extra money coming in from my business. I can see our savings going up, after fully depleting it while my wife was home for 18 months. Sometimes I wish the kids were back in school so I could focus on my business.
>
> Anyway, I am trying to juggle this small business and my un-schooling kids. When business is slow, I stay home with them during the week. Recently I was home with them. I spent my time playing with them and fixing up our house. We hope to refinance so we can buy land, then build a home I design on the land in the country, and sell our city home and move closer to my wife's work (she's commuting an hour now).
>
> This week work has been full. I am feeling distracted by running back and forth from my shop (5 minutes away) and home to check on the kids who may be sleeping after being up all night or may be awake and hungry, who knows!
>
> I see lots of growth in my daughter (12) who is an artist and maker of things. She also researches things and talks about her interests. What she is doing really makes sense to me, probably because I am also a researcher of things and an artist too.
>
> My son, who is 9 today, watches TV all day or plays on-line video games. He doesn't want to leave the house, says he hates driving anywhere. I get soooo bored sitting around with him. He's not doing anything!! I am wondering if he is really learning anything or in 9 years will I have an 18 year old who can't even read a ruler to measure something or do simple math?
>
> He has learned to read some from the video games but asks me to read stuff written in script because he can't read script. Is he going to need me to read script for him forever??!!
>
> If I am going to be home with the kids I'd really like to be going somewhere with them, not sitting around the house playing video games all day. If we are out and about, I imagine that they will be learning things and growing from the new experiences.
>
> My wife says my son is learning things while he plays on-line. She says he talks about life and his observations. She judges that to be learning. She says he needs time alone and when or if he is ready, he'll get out there and make friends. I disagree. I think he is isolating himself and that this isolation is damaging to him.
>
> She also says that he does things like day dream or play with his sister. And, that is all learning and growing too, according to her. I don't see much of this. I just see the TV watching and on-line game playing.
>
> My wife started working full time in November. At first I was taking the kids to my father-in-law during November and December so I could focus on work. Sometimes they would sleep all day there, having been up all night at home. They always argued with me on the way to Pop's house.
>
> During the past month, I've kept the kids home. Sometimes I am home with them. Sometimes I am at my shop 5 minutes away. If I am at the shop, I am thinking about the. The original plan was to move my tools into the garage so I could be working close by while the kids did their thing. Now I am thinking that they will distract me from getting my work done if I've got a shop set up in the garage.
>
> To help me stay focused at work, I could start taking the kids to my in-laws again, but the kids don't like going there. They say it is boring. And, my in-laws don't really support the radical un-schooling we are trying to do.
>
> I need to work some because my wife's income covers only 80% of our current expenses. Once we sell our house and move to the country, her salary will cover our expenses. We hope to make the move over the course of this next year, but we'll need my income while we've refinanced for the land and before built our new house and sold our current one. We think this will take a year.
>
> What insight am I missing here?
> What is the right thing for my son?
> Will he grow up to be a hermit who can't do math or read a handwritten note?
> Will he be angry with me that I didn't make him go to school and learn stuff?
> Will he be a failure?
> What if he never has any friends or refuses to drive anywhere?
> Will I always be supporting him?
> Will he ever get a job or earn an income?
>
> Also, finance and house related:
> Will the transition to a rural life work for us?
> We've had financial trouble in the past and the economy is bad now will we be able to make things work for us over the next year of selling and building or will we find ourselves in worse financial shape?
>
> Putting it all together
> Can I juggle the designing and building of the new house with the selling of the old house AND the unschooling of the kids????
>
> My fears are working on me and making it difficult for me to be the gentle, open parent that I want to be.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob
>
> Dad to Peter (9) and Sophia (12)
>
Ulrike Haupt
Hi Rob
Allow me to put a few fears to rest about Peter.I'll just relate some about
my Alex who'll be 18 in June this year.
I don't know if he can read script, but he started to write a cat book
recently -all in Word and then online in a blog.
He has a nocturnal rhythm - it was making him sick during the three years he
went to school before I unschooled him. Recently he made a couple of friends
online who are also in music - he plays guitar - and they chat all night -
for us - they live in the US and it is day for them <grin>.
He is a hermit at heart. Yet last week he ventured out on his own to the
'Vintage', a motor cycle club that has live music on Fridays. He enjoyed it
so much that he invited his big sister and her boyfriend and his dad to go
with him yesterday evening. I babysat the little girls. They came home
around two a.m. According to my daughter it was Alex's 'BEST Night' of his
whole life.
When he was 9 nobody knew that he was going to spend a long while on
backyard ballistics or building forges and studying lots about metals and
how to cast them. Over the years he has built an amazing knowledge base on
weaponry, cats, music, photography and film making to name a few 'subjects'
besides computers and games. He cooks and bakes. Recently he has drawn quite
a selection of cat cartoons. Every now and then he wants a 'job' (anything)
to make some money. But that is really not what he is about yet. And I trust
that when it is right for him, and all of us, something will come along
where his uniqueness is the best fit.
And now I have to make breakfast with and for one of my granddaughters?
Blissings
Ulrike
from Namibia - somewhere in Africa
Allow me to put a few fears to rest about Peter.I'll just relate some about
my Alex who'll be 18 in June this year.
I don't know if he can read script, but he started to write a cat book
recently -all in Word and then online in a blog.
He has a nocturnal rhythm - it was making him sick during the three years he
went to school before I unschooled him. Recently he made a couple of friends
online who are also in music - he plays guitar - and they chat all night -
for us - they live in the US and it is day for them <grin>.
He is a hermit at heart. Yet last week he ventured out on his own to the
'Vintage', a motor cycle club that has live music on Fridays. He enjoyed it
so much that he invited his big sister and her boyfriend and his dad to go
with him yesterday evening. I babysat the little girls. They came home
around two a.m. According to my daughter it was Alex's 'BEST Night' of his
whole life.
When he was 9 nobody knew that he was going to spend a long while on
backyard ballistics or building forges and studying lots about metals and
how to cast them. Over the years he has built an amazing knowledge base on
weaponry, cats, music, photography and film making to name a few 'subjects'
besides computers and games. He cooks and bakes. Recently he has drawn quite
a selection of cat cartoons. Every now and then he wants a 'job' (anything)
to make some money. But that is really not what he is about yet. And I trust
that when it is right for him, and all of us, something will come along
where his uniqueness is the best fit.
And now I have to make breakfast with and for one of my granddaughters?
Blissings
Ulrike
from Namibia - somewhere in Africa
Charity
(I am not an experienced unschooler, so feel free everyone to correct me if I am wrong here in this advice, from an unschooling perspective.)
Rob,
I have three sons that I homeschool, 13, 11, and 6. We have been deschooling/unschooling for three months (after 4 years of somewhat structured homeschooling) and my 13 year old does pretty much nothing except play video games and watch tv. My 11 year old will ask to read some history with me or look up animals on the internet that he wants to know more about. He also creates comic book characters. My 6 year old devours art supplies and asks me to explain math concepts, such as multiplication, and likes to practice learning to read and writing. They are both very self-motivated. But, my 13 year old will literally do nothing most days, and that does concern me. I understand where you are coming from.
Because I was concerned about him, I started offering things that he might like to do, but not in a nagging way. For example, we had an opportunity for them to take snowboarding lessons at a discounted rate for homeschoolers, so I asked if he wanted to do that. He did, so now I know at least one day a week, he is away from the screen.
When he watches TV all day, I will suggest a Science or Discovery Channel show that he likes. He doesn't always choose that, but often he does. He is curious about how things work and he likes those shows.
I often get graphic novels (comic books) about science or history topics from the library. They even have Shakespeare's plays in graphic novel form. I don't say anything, I just leave them out and he almost always reads them. I also take out non-fiction books that I leave around. (Those only sometimes get read.)
I bought an electric circuit making kit with a booklet of instructions. I got it for $8 at at discount store. He spent hours playing around with it. Since he liked it, I went to Radio Shack and bought more components for him to mess around with.
Next week, I am going to go to the museum and he can come or stay home, but I think he will come.
Sometimes he stays home. That's okay, too. I can take the other kids.
I have a family cell phone plan with 3 lines so he (or my 11 yo) can stay home if he wants and still get in touch with me or my husband at all times.
One big hang up I have had about unschooling was that I studied math and science at a university, so I think that the kids HAVE to learn that stuff to be prepared for college. Since letting go of MY ideas of what they have to do, I have realized that my oldest son is not really the college type (though, that can change). He is good with his hands and likes to take stuff apart and figure out how it works. He also like to build with wood. I think he is more wired for the trades, not academics. I have been trying to prepare him for MY life not HIS.
Since I have not provided him with a lot of those types of opportunities (yet), he chooses to play video games. If I offered to pay for classes at a local wood shop, for example, I bet he would jump at the chance. I have talked to him about going to the local tech school in high school and he wants to do that. When the time gets closer, we will look into what he needs to do for that, if he wants to go that route.
My point (finally!) is that your son's interests, not yours, are what will motivate him to seek something other than video games.
Another thing to consider is that your "schooling" can ebb and flow with your work. When you are busy, is it such a big deal for them to do "nothing"? Then, when you have a slow time, you can think of things to do together.
One last point, which may or may not apply, in the winter, all of my kids do more tv and video games, but in the summer, they barely touch it. I try to keep that in mind.
Good luck,
Charity
Rob,
I have three sons that I homeschool, 13, 11, and 6. We have been deschooling/unschooling for three months (after 4 years of somewhat structured homeschooling) and my 13 year old does pretty much nothing except play video games and watch tv. My 11 year old will ask to read some history with me or look up animals on the internet that he wants to know more about. He also creates comic book characters. My 6 year old devours art supplies and asks me to explain math concepts, such as multiplication, and likes to practice learning to read and writing. They are both very self-motivated. But, my 13 year old will literally do nothing most days, and that does concern me. I understand where you are coming from.
Because I was concerned about him, I started offering things that he might like to do, but not in a nagging way. For example, we had an opportunity for them to take snowboarding lessons at a discounted rate for homeschoolers, so I asked if he wanted to do that. He did, so now I know at least one day a week, he is away from the screen.
When he watches TV all day, I will suggest a Science or Discovery Channel show that he likes. He doesn't always choose that, but often he does. He is curious about how things work and he likes those shows.
I often get graphic novels (comic books) about science or history topics from the library. They even have Shakespeare's plays in graphic novel form. I don't say anything, I just leave them out and he almost always reads them. I also take out non-fiction books that I leave around. (Those only sometimes get read.)
I bought an electric circuit making kit with a booklet of instructions. I got it for $8 at at discount store. He spent hours playing around with it. Since he liked it, I went to Radio Shack and bought more components for him to mess around with.
Next week, I am going to go to the museum and he can come or stay home, but I think he will come.
Sometimes he stays home. That's okay, too. I can take the other kids.
I have a family cell phone plan with 3 lines so he (or my 11 yo) can stay home if he wants and still get in touch with me or my husband at all times.
One big hang up I have had about unschooling was that I studied math and science at a university, so I think that the kids HAVE to learn that stuff to be prepared for college. Since letting go of MY ideas of what they have to do, I have realized that my oldest son is not really the college type (though, that can change). He is good with his hands and likes to take stuff apart and figure out how it works. He also like to build with wood. I think he is more wired for the trades, not academics. I have been trying to prepare him for MY life not HIS.
Since I have not provided him with a lot of those types of opportunities (yet), he chooses to play video games. If I offered to pay for classes at a local wood shop, for example, I bet he would jump at the chance. I have talked to him about going to the local tech school in high school and he wants to do that. When the time gets closer, we will look into what he needs to do for that, if he wants to go that route.
My point (finally!) is that your son's interests, not yours, are what will motivate him to seek something other than video games.
Another thing to consider is that your "schooling" can ebb and flow with your work. When you are busy, is it such a big deal for them to do "nothing"? Then, when you have a slow time, you can think of things to do together.
One last point, which may or may not apply, in the winter, all of my kids do more tv and video games, but in the summer, they barely touch it. I try to keep that in mind.
Good luck,
Charity
--- In [email protected], "Elli" <elinorsparks@...> wrote:
> My son, who is 9 today, watches TV all day or plays on-line video games. He doesn't want to leave the house, says he hates driving anywhere. I get soooo bored sitting around with him. He's not doing anything!! I am wondering if he is really learning anything or in 9 years will I have an 18 year old who can't even read a ruler to measure something or do simple math?
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "Elli" <elinorsparks@...> wrote:
Are you asking what he's learning from those? Math and science and social studies and history and literature and economics and biology and ethics and language arts and music and and and.
You don't see the learning because that's not how you learn best. If you're like many craftspeople (me for instance), you learn by picking something up and getting in the middle of it and figuring out how it all goes together. That's a baffling process to someone who learns differently - I know! Its how *I* tend to learn, but I've learned to train new coworkers by means of *their* learning styles, not mine.
You're not training your son to be anything, though, you're doing something even harder, you're trying to support him to learn what *he* wants to learn about in his own way. Some of his way may be to simply share his time with you while you don't do much of anything - that's Haaaaarrrd when you're itching to Do Something, but its also a valuable form of support for some people.
Think about script as another font. If your son grows up with computers, he'll grow up understanding that there are different fonts and that some are easier than others to read, some take more attention. But the more he reads the more other fonts he'll see and the easier that will come to him.
Do math... he's already doing some math, internalizing some mathematical concepts. Math is everwhere, like language, and humans are wired to understand a certain amount of it naturally, again like language. Beyond that, there are variations of personality and temperament. My 16yo is not very logical, for instance, but can do quite a bit of certain kinds of math - the kinds that are useful to him, having to do with carpentry and metalworking. He doesn't really need to "get" algebra and trig to be able to do that, he needs to learn from longtime metal and woodworkers the tricks of the trade that revolve around math - many of which revolve around specific tools. It won't matter if he understands trig, for instance, as long as he knows the tricks to using a speed square and carpenter's square.
My 8yo, otoh, is fascinated by all the reasons and principles that make math work. She adores that kind of puzzle and loves to play with numbers and logic. At some point, that may mean she starts taking classes in higher math. She may need a basic course or two to bring her up to speed, but based on the experiences of other unschoolers, a basic course or two is likely all she'll need.
If he has decent relationships within the family he's learning the skills he needs to have friends. Right now, he may be getting enough of his social needs met from the family not to need many other people, but that's the sort of thing that usually changes in the teens (sometimes late in the teens). There's natural developmental processes involved.
Do you think you'll be working, too? That's a Lot to juggle at once. Building a house is stressful. It might be better to wait to build and look at options that allow you to buy land without building right away - those options will depend on how "rustic" a life you're family is willing to tolerate and for how long. I lived in a tend while building my house, but I didn't have kids at the time - I wouldn't do that now unless the kids thought it was some kind of grand adventure, it would be too stressful.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>> What insight am I missing here?It might help you to learn and/or think about different learning styles, personalities and temperaments - which are all part and parcel of the same thing. Someone who is inclined to learn by doing is going to be different than someone inclined to learn by reading or by listening or by socializing. You and your son may have very different natural approaches to learning and being! That makes *your* role more challenging in some ways because you have to step away from what you know about how you learn and process and understand and try to envision his perspective.
> What is the right thing for my son?
> She also says that he does things like day dream or play with his sister. And, that is all learning and growing too, according to her. I don't see much of this. I just see the TV watching and on-line game playing.**********************
Are you asking what he's learning from those? Math and science and social studies and history and literature and economics and biology and ethics and language arts and music and and and.
You don't see the learning because that's not how you learn best. If you're like many craftspeople (me for instance), you learn by picking something up and getting in the middle of it and figuring out how it all goes together. That's a baffling process to someone who learns differently - I know! Its how *I* tend to learn, but I've learned to train new coworkers by means of *their* learning styles, not mine.
You're not training your son to be anything, though, you're doing something even harder, you're trying to support him to learn what *he* wants to learn about in his own way. Some of his way may be to simply share his time with you while you don't do much of anything - that's Haaaaarrrd when you're itching to Do Something, but its also a valuable form of support for some people.
> Will he grow up to be a hermit who can't do math or read a handwritten note?***************
Think about script as another font. If your son grows up with computers, he'll grow up understanding that there are different fonts and that some are easier than others to read, some take more attention. But the more he reads the more other fonts he'll see and the easier that will come to him.
Do math... he's already doing some math, internalizing some mathematical concepts. Math is everwhere, like language, and humans are wired to understand a certain amount of it naturally, again like language. Beyond that, there are variations of personality and temperament. My 16yo is not very logical, for instance, but can do quite a bit of certain kinds of math - the kinds that are useful to him, having to do with carpentry and metalworking. He doesn't really need to "get" algebra and trig to be able to do that, he needs to learn from longtime metal and woodworkers the tricks of the trade that revolve around math - many of which revolve around specific tools. It won't matter if he understands trig, for instance, as long as he knows the tricks to using a speed square and carpenter's square.
My 8yo, otoh, is fascinated by all the reasons and principles that make math work. She adores that kind of puzzle and loves to play with numbers and logic. At some point, that may mean she starts taking classes in higher math. She may need a basic course or two to bring her up to speed, but based on the experiences of other unschoolers, a basic course or two is likely all she'll need.
> Will he be a failure?Would teaching him anything at all stop that from happening? A friend of mine has a PhD and considers himself a failure because of his personal problems.
> What if he never has any friends or refuses to drive anywhere?There are lots of people who don't drive - most of them live in cities, at least in the US. I have friends in Chicago, San Francisco and Providence RI who all use public transportation or get the occasional ride from friends for longer trips. Its not a crisis not to drive.
If he has decent relationships within the family he's learning the skills he needs to have friends. Right now, he may be getting enough of his social needs met from the family not to need many other people, but that's the sort of thing that usually changes in the teens (sometimes late in the teens). There's natural developmental processes involved.
> Will I always be supporting him?How many kids go from high school to college to home with mom and dad? More now than a generation ago. Support your son in discovering what he wants, what he loves and values and he's More likely to find work that's meaningful to him than if he goes through the motions of education without personal motivation.
> Will he ever get a job or earn an income?
> Will the transition to a rural life work for us?There are plusses and minusses to any lifestyle. Its useful to consider what the needs of all your family members are while thinking about a move. It won't do you much good to move nearer your wife's work, for instance, if you're having to go that much further in the opposite direction to meet the needs of your kids.
> Can I juggle the designing and building of the new house with the selling of the old house AND the unschooling of the kids????*************
Do you think you'll be working, too? That's a Lot to juggle at once. Building a house is stressful. It might be better to wait to build and look at options that allow you to buy land without building right away - those options will depend on how "rustic" a life you're family is willing to tolerate and for how long. I lived in a tend while building my house, but I didn't have kids at the time - I wouldn't do that now unless the kids thought it was some kind of grand adventure, it would be too stressful.
>>for me to be the gentle, open parent that I want to be.Keep your eyes on this goal. Work on This, not on your son. That's challenging, for sure, but not impossible. It can be challenging to believe that being gentle and open is Enough not to "ruin" kids - it is enough, though. Be open to your son's differentness from you. If you need to Do Something, do some research. Read about learning styles and multiple intelligences, about personality and introversion/extraversion. If you're itching to fix or change something, fix or change you, not him, to be more the person you want to be.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "Charity" <charitytensel@...> wrote:
Its good to offer things to do, ideas, projects - as you say, not in a nagging way, but as a way to provide things with options so that kids aren't doing "the same old thing" all the time out of nothing but inertia. That "same old thing" could be tv or games, but it could just as easily be reading or playing on a swingset! The point isn't so much to steer kids away from anything - or toward anything for that matter - but simply to create possibilities.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>> Because I was concerned about him, I started offering things that he might like to do, but not in a nagging way. For example, we had an opportunity for them to take snowboarding lessons at a discounted rate for homeschoolers, so I asked if he wanted to do that. He did, so now I know at least one day a week, he is away from the screen.**********************
Its good to offer things to do, ideas, projects - as you say, not in a nagging way, but as a way to provide things with options so that kids aren't doing "the same old thing" all the time out of nothing but inertia. That "same old thing" could be tv or games, but it could just as easily be reading or playing on a swingset! The point isn't so much to steer kids away from anything - or toward anything for that matter - but simply to create possibilities.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
lilyfoil
I don't want to add to your panic or make you feel bad, but it does not seem right to me that no one is home with the kids.
-- a former latch key child
-- a former latch key child
strawlis
--- In [email protected], "lilyfoil" <seafaces@...> wrote:
Elisabeth mama to Liv(11)and Lex(9)
>Just jumping on to say...and I'm not sure of OP children's ages...but this is truly an individual case by case thing....cell phones open the way to easy communication...and many 8,9, 10 and ups are more than capable of managing for periods on their own...especially when the stage is set...yummy food available...their activity of choose readily available, ect. I have 2 dd less than two years apart one is more than capable and I often honor her request not to go with....very child is different..each parent can decided with child..hopefully not from a place of fear...but from love and respect.
> I don't want to add to your panic or make you feel bad, but it does not seem right to me that no one is home with the kids.
>
> -- a former latch key child
>
Elisabeth mama to Liv(11)and Lex(9)
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 29, 2010, at 2:14 PM, Elli wrote:
9 yo shouldn't be left alone, especially when you're only 5 minutes
away. If *she's* okay with the situation and 12 yos are old enough to
babysit in your state, then there's nothing legally wrong.
And I suspect your "who knows!" means "it can be different every
day," but it's good to be careful out in the world with casual talk.
If you said the same to a neighbor it wouldn't be surprising if they
called CPS. It's your legal obligation to know.
something all day or he isn't.
I understand what you mean by it, but if you write it (and think of
what he's doing as "not doing anything") you'll have those thoughts
together in the same box labeled "not doing anything" and you'll
react to them as though they're the same.
What he's doing is following his passions. What he's doing is
learning in ways that are very different from yours. It's your view
that needs shifted, not his behavior.
who've continued to unschool have grown into kids with a strong sense
of self and what they want to explore in the world by the time
they're late teens to early twenties.
So, for your 9 yo to not follow the path of other unschooled 9 yos
who are now grown I'm thinking one of the following must be true:
1) The people who've been writing about unschooling for 15+ years
have kids with special abilities to learn from playing so unschooling
works for them,
2) We have kids who are turning out like wrecks and we care more
about the philosophy than our kids, or
3) We have kids who are turning out like wrecks and we are too blind
to notice.
(Are there other possibilities? That's all I can think of at the
moment.)
I hope if you read here for a bit you'll have confidence that 2 & 3
aren't true! ;-) (Otherwise you should run far far away from us!)
So is it 1? Or something else I haven't thought of?
Why do you think your son, who is behaving like many many other 9 yo
unschooled kids have behaved *won't* learn when the others did? Is it
your son's failing that's causing you to think that or is it your
lack of experience with what learning from life looks and feels like?
I'm strongly betting the second! (It's shown itself to be the problem
time after time when people worry about kids not learning!) What your
son is doing is what unschooling can look like when it's working. (It
can also look like what your daughter's doing, *but* she's also
older. 12 yos do have different needs and motivations than 9 yos do.)
One other factor is there is no guarantee. People who can't make
unschooling work, or can't accept what working looks like, will not
continue to unschool. That doesn't mean unschooling doesn't work only
that some people don't have the confidence to continue. We don't know
the effects on all video game playing 9 yos because some families
probably silently drop out of the "experiment". There *is* some
uncertainty. The people who stick with unschooling find a way to work
past that uncertainty, usually because they see benefits that greatly
outweigh their uncertainty.
The other big factor is you. Unschooling isn't just hanging back
waiting for kids to explore. (Though it doesn't sound like that's
what you're doing.) Unschooling is swirling options through their
lives. *If* your son is choosing video games because it's the best
option he sees available, that's not the same as choosing video games
out of several appealing (to him) options. Again, it doesn't sound
like that's what's happening. He, like many other 9 yos (including my
daughter at that time) find video games to be the exact right
challenge they need.
Have you played with him? While it's not necessary to be as involved
as he is, to build a relationship -- and ease your worries -- it
helps a great deal to get a deep understanding of what he loves and
how involving and challenging they can be, and to know enough to have
a good understanding of what he's talking about so you can converse
with him.
We can't hand you experience with natural learning or convince you it
works. That you need to do yourself. The best advice is to look at
your son rather than at school or what you think learning looks like.
See his engagement. See what fascinates him. As support for that,
reading lists like this, the boards and blogs at: http://
familyrun.ning.com/, the typical days at: http://sandradodd.com/typical.
Also here: (I think I already posted the specific links to TV and
video games)
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
The random page feature at both might take you to questions you
hadn't realized were bothering you.
not work for you. (There are lots of different factors that can make
it work despite your availability. Some kids have a strong sense of
what they want to do and go ahead and do it with good sound thinking.
Some are more laid back and go along with the flow.)
That said, at their ages, you might be able to figure out a way to
carve out some semi-guaranteed time without taking from them.
Unschooling doesn't need to happen during school hours. It can happen
at night. It can happen on weekends.
How you get it to work will depend on what and how much they need
from you and how independent they are. (You can't make them more
independent just because you need them to. Though you can pull away
with the intent to "teach" them independence and what you'll achieve
is greater dependence or lack of trust that you'll be there for them.)
To get this to work you will need to adjust yourself to suit their
needs. The more you fill their buckets with confidence your priority
is helping them meet your needs, the more they'll be able to give
when you ask them to give something up so you can do something. As
long as *they* feel you're there for them -- *not* you feeling you're
doing what's necessary for them to feel that way -- they'll be able
to help you out.
happy? Is he engaged? Does he have plenty of other opportunities to
choose from?"
basic math! I bet he knows more than you think. Math's one of my
passions. An even bigger passion is writing about how schools fail at
math ;-) The emphasis is on rote memorization rather than
understanding. What you're son is doing is developing an
understanding of how numbers and concepts work. Exact same way he
developed an understanding of how words and grammar worked: by using
them and playing with them long before he had anything approaching a
full understanding of what he was doing.
Down the left side at
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
are several pages about math.
As for handwriting, that's harder to pick up from life because fewer
and fewer people use it! ;-) It took a long time for my daughter to
pick it up just because there were so few personally meaningful
examples to draw understanding from. She's 18 now and pretty good at
deciphering it.
You could find fun ways for him to encounter handwritten notes. You
could treat it like a code and leave notes for him to follow to
something cool. But *don't* do it as a way to get him to understand
handwriting. Do it because he thinks it's fun. If he's not having
fun, if it feels like torture to him, drop it because he's learning
that deciphering handwriting is irritating and you enjoy torturing
him ;-)
It wouldn't be unusual for someone to wish they'd be made to learn
something when they were kids so they didn't have to face learning it
as an adult. I wish I'd been made to learn guitar! *BUT* when someone
sees the benefits of not being made, when someone feels what it's
like to be made to do something you don't want to do (and it's hard
to reach adulthood without having experienced that) they shouldn't be
angry!
But a lot will depend on your relationship with him and his feeling
of being supported in his choices and his feeling of having lots of
things to explore.
be with people and someone forces you to, does that make you like
people (and the one forcing you) better?
But, these questions are from lack of experience with unschooling and
unschooled kids. No one can convince you that your fears are wrong.
You need to read and convince yourself. (These issues do come up.
There are lots of threads in the archives. But it's better to address
current on going problems, than your projections of them. Right now
it sounds like *he's* happy so he's not the one with the problem.)
completely your choice. If you put your work ahead of them, if you
start resenting the time they take, if you can't find ways to turn
that thinking around -- and people here might have techniques that
worked for them *if* that happens to you -- then you won't be, will you?
years from now?
You'll do him a much greater service if you help him be 9 than if you
worry about why your 9 yo isn't acting like a 22 yo.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> and home to check on the kids who may be sleeping after being upI wouldn't make a blanket statement, as someone did, that a 12 yo and
> all night or may be awake and hungry, who knows!
9 yo shouldn't be left alone, especially when you're only 5 minutes
away. If *she's* okay with the situation and 12 yos are old enough to
babysit in your state, then there's nothing legally wrong.
And I suspect your "who knows!" means "it can be different every
day," but it's good to be careful out in the world with casual talk.
If you said the same to a neighbor it wouldn't be surprising if they
called CPS. It's your legal obligation to know.
> My son, who is 9 today, watches TV all day or plays on-line videoDo you see that those two statements can't be true? Either he's doing
> games. He doesn't want to leave the house, says he hates driving
> anywhere.
> He's not doing anything!!
something all day or he isn't.
I understand what you mean by it, but if you write it (and think of
what he's doing as "not doing anything") you'll have those thoughts
together in the same box labeled "not doing anything" and you'll
react to them as though they're the same.
What he's doing is following his passions. What he's doing is
learning in ways that are very different from yours. It's your view
that needs shifted, not his behavior.
> I am wondering if he is really learning anything or in 9 years willHe sounds like a normal 9 yo unschooling boy. 9 yos like your son
> I have an 18 year old who can't even read a ruler to measure
> something or do simple math?
who've continued to unschool have grown into kids with a strong sense
of self and what they want to explore in the world by the time
they're late teens to early twenties.
So, for your 9 yo to not follow the path of other unschooled 9 yos
who are now grown I'm thinking one of the following must be true:
1) The people who've been writing about unschooling for 15+ years
have kids with special abilities to learn from playing so unschooling
works for them,
2) We have kids who are turning out like wrecks and we care more
about the philosophy than our kids, or
3) We have kids who are turning out like wrecks and we are too blind
to notice.
(Are there other possibilities? That's all I can think of at the
moment.)
I hope if you read here for a bit you'll have confidence that 2 & 3
aren't true! ;-) (Otherwise you should run far far away from us!)
So is it 1? Or something else I haven't thought of?
Why do you think your son, who is behaving like many many other 9 yo
unschooled kids have behaved *won't* learn when the others did? Is it
your son's failing that's causing you to think that or is it your
lack of experience with what learning from life looks and feels like?
I'm strongly betting the second! (It's shown itself to be the problem
time after time when people worry about kids not learning!) What your
son is doing is what unschooling can look like when it's working. (It
can also look like what your daughter's doing, *but* she's also
older. 12 yos do have different needs and motivations than 9 yos do.)
One other factor is there is no guarantee. People who can't make
unschooling work, or can't accept what working looks like, will not
continue to unschool. That doesn't mean unschooling doesn't work only
that some people don't have the confidence to continue. We don't know
the effects on all video game playing 9 yos because some families
probably silently drop out of the "experiment". There *is* some
uncertainty. The people who stick with unschooling find a way to work
past that uncertainty, usually because they see benefits that greatly
outweigh their uncertainty.
The other big factor is you. Unschooling isn't just hanging back
waiting for kids to explore. (Though it doesn't sound like that's
what you're doing.) Unschooling is swirling options through their
lives. *If* your son is choosing video games because it's the best
option he sees available, that's not the same as choosing video games
out of several appealing (to him) options. Again, it doesn't sound
like that's what's happening. He, like many other 9 yos (including my
daughter at that time) find video games to be the exact right
challenge they need.
Have you played with him? While it's not necessary to be as involved
as he is, to build a relationship -- and ease your worries -- it
helps a great deal to get a deep understanding of what he loves and
how involving and challenging they can be, and to know enough to have
a good understanding of what he's talking about so you can converse
with him.
We can't hand you experience with natural learning or convince you it
works. That you need to do yourself. The best advice is to look at
your son rather than at school or what you think learning looks like.
See his engagement. See what fascinates him. As support for that,
reading lists like this, the boards and blogs at: http://
familyrun.ning.com/, the typical days at: http://sandradodd.com/typical.
Also here: (I think I already posted the specific links to TV and
video games)
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
The random page feature at both might take you to questions you
hadn't realized were bothering you.
> Now I am thinking that they will distract me from getting my workIf you can't put their needs first 95% of the time, unschooling might
> done if I've got a shop set up in the garage.
>
not work for you. (There are lots of different factors that can make
it work despite your availability. Some kids have a strong sense of
what they want to do and go ahead and do it with good sound thinking.
Some are more laid back and go along with the flow.)
That said, at their ages, you might be able to figure out a way to
carve out some semi-guaranteed time without taking from them.
Unschooling doesn't need to happen during school hours. It can happen
at night. It can happen on weekends.
How you get it to work will depend on what and how much they need
from you and how independent they are. (You can't make them more
independent just because you need them to. Though you can pull away
with the intent to "teach" them independence and what you'll achieve
is greater dependence or lack of trust that you'll be there for them.)
To get this to work you will need to adjust yourself to suit their
needs. The more you fill their buckets with confidence your priority
is helping them meet your needs, the more they'll be able to give
when you ask them to give something up so you can do something. As
long as *they* feel you're there for them -- *not* you feeling you're
doing what's necessary for them to feel that way -- they'll be able
to help you out.
> What is the right thing for my son?The best one to tell you is your son. The best guideposts are: "Is he
happy? Is he engaged? Does he have plenty of other opportunities to
choose from?"
> Will he grow up to be a hermit who can't do math or read aIt's pretty hard to play video games without using a good chunk of
> handwritten note?
basic math! I bet he knows more than you think. Math's one of my
passions. An even bigger passion is writing about how schools fail at
math ;-) The emphasis is on rote memorization rather than
understanding. What you're son is doing is developing an
understanding of how numbers and concepts work. Exact same way he
developed an understanding of how words and grammar worked: by using
them and playing with them long before he had anything approaching a
full understanding of what he was doing.
Down the left side at
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
are several pages about math.
As for handwriting, that's harder to pick up from life because fewer
and fewer people use it! ;-) It took a long time for my daughter to
pick it up just because there were so few personally meaningful
examples to draw understanding from. She's 18 now and pretty good at
deciphering it.
You could find fun ways for him to encounter handwritten notes. You
could treat it like a code and leave notes for him to follow to
something cool. But *don't* do it as a way to get him to understand
handwriting. Do it because he thinks it's fun. If he's not having
fun, if it feels like torture to him, drop it because he's learning
that deciphering handwriting is irritating and you enjoy torturing
him ;-)
> Will he be angry with me that I didn't make him go to school andThat would be ungrateful! ;-)
> learn stuff?
It wouldn't be unusual for someone to wish they'd be made to learn
something when they were kids so they didn't have to face learning it
as an adult. I wish I'd been made to learn guitar! *BUT* when someone
sees the benefits of not being made, when someone feels what it's
like to be made to do something you don't want to do (and it's hard
to reach adulthood without having experienced that) they shouldn't be
angry!
But a lot will depend on your relationship with him and his feeling
of being supported in his choices and his feeling of having lots of
things to explore.
> Will he be a failure?Define failure.
> What if he never has any friends or refuses to drive anywhere?What if? How can you make someone have friends? If you don't want to
be with people and someone forces you to, does that make you like
people (and the one forcing you) better?
But, these questions are from lack of experience with unschooling and
unschooled kids. No one can convince you that your fears are wrong.
You need to read and convince yourself. (These issues do come up.
There are lots of threads in the archives. But it's better to address
current on going problems, than your projections of them. Right now
it sounds like *he's* happy so he's not the one with the problem.)
> Will I always be supporting him?Can we wave wands and cause this to happen? That is totally
completely your choice. If you put your work ahead of them, if you
start resenting the time they take, if you can't find ways to turn
that thinking around -- and people here might have techniques that
worked for them *if* that happens to you -- then you won't be, will you?
> Will he ever get a job or earn an income?He's 9. What if terrorists bomb the US and civilization collapses 5
years from now?
You'll do him a much greater service if you help him be 9 than if you
worry about why your 9 yo isn't acting like a 22 yo.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
> a former latch key childI'd echo what Elisabeth said.
Having a parent decide a child can be on their own (because of age,
because the parent needs them to) is not the same situation as a
child who has a parent listening to their needs and working with them
and their needs to find a solution. When a child chooses to be alone,
with the support they need (like a cell phone) it's very different
than a parent deciding for them.
On the surface they look the same, but inside they feel completely
opposite.
Choice is important.
Joyce
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amberlee_b
I am sorry that you have those worries and feeling from being a "latch key" child. Thankfully in unschooling situations those kids have been around us ALL the time so leaving them home for a handful of hours once in a while is all it is. It isn't the same as both parents never home and you always coming home to an empty house and having to care for yourself all the time. Once in a while we leave the kids home, they are old enough to keep themselves entertained and they have access to us if they happen to need something. Our 10 year old wouldn't want to be home alone, but that is her choice and we wouldn't leave her alone until she feels it is ok. Our eldest prefers to stay inside--alone or with his brother and sister doesn't matter to him. The our younger son can stay home alone for a few hours as well (he is 11) and quite enjoys having the house to himself for a bit.
I know it can be difficult to look at unschooling from a non-unschooled childhood and wonder how it can work. Why it isn't bad to not have an adult home with the kids. Or why a young child can choose to cook or use a knife....or walk to the corner store without a parent. They aren't being forced to do these things, they are choosing to do these things. They have a real choice! They can go to the store with the family or they can stay home and do what they were doing. It wouldn't matter what age, if they were still 2 or 3 and didn't want to go out or to the store I would stay home till hubby came and go out alone. Or maybe have him bring home what we needed. There are always choices we can make without trampling on the decisions they want to make...and without making a child feel scared, lonely, worried, anxious, alone, unloved...
I know it can be difficult to look at unschooling from a non-unschooled childhood and wonder how it can work. Why it isn't bad to not have an adult home with the kids. Or why a young child can choose to cook or use a knife....or walk to the corner store without a parent. They aren't being forced to do these things, they are choosing to do these things. They have a real choice! They can go to the store with the family or they can stay home and do what they were doing. It wouldn't matter what age, if they were still 2 or 3 and didn't want to go out or to the store I would stay home till hubby came and go out alone. Or maybe have him bring home what we needed. There are always choices we can make without trampling on the decisions they want to make...and without making a child feel scared, lonely, worried, anxious, alone, unloved...
--- In [email protected], "lilyfoil" <seafaces@...> wrote:
>
> I don't want to add to your panic or make you feel bad, but it does not seem right to me that no one is home with the kids.
>
> -- a former latch key child
>
Bun
The most important thing for your son is that he feels loved and worthy and has self-confidence and self-esteem and a trusting and kind relationship with you and feels supported by you. Think carefully about your goals and if in pursuing them that they leave room enough to take care of your child's needs...are you spending time with him and does he need more from you to help him find things that interest him and togetherness to foster your relationship? Are there things that might be able to be done after your kids are grown more? What really is most important to you? Do you spend enough time WITH them? Doing whatever interests them?
Why waste your time worrying about the future. Love and support him now. The more self-confidence and trust your son has, the more ready he will be to be on his own at some point. ("at some point" will be whenever it is....but again, you have the power to kick you kid out or give him up for adoption...it is a choice you have made to keep him in your home and feel loved and accepted or not.)
Check out this book "Parenting a Free Child" by Rue Kream (My ablsolute favorite book for parenting/unschooling! Here's a link to her book/site...http://www.freechild.info/
And ...Dayna Martin (unschooler from Vermont) has wonderful, honest youtube videos that discussing trusting our kids and unschooling and living joyfully. Here's a link to her web page. Click on whatever video you are interested in from there. http://www.unschoolingamerica.com/videos.asp
Check out Dayna's book also: "Radical Unschooling: A Revolution has Begun"
Scott Noelle's "The Daily Groove" (give inspirational words each day with regard to living with our loved little ones so that we enjoy parenting and our lives in general more.)
http://www.enjoyparenting.com/
Pam Leo's website:
http://www.connectionparenting.com/
Pam Leo wrote an excellent book (also available on cd or mp3 dwnld and read by her): "Connection Parenting: Parenting through Connection instead of Coercion
through Love instead of Fear" You can access a streaming audio interview from her home page too.
Free download or listen on computer:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
I have more favorite resources (please email me directly and I'll send them to you if you'd like).
Also, go to an unschooling conference if you can. So reassuring to see other families embracing this lifestyle. Nice to meet people in real life living similar ways and sharing some common values (which are not always the same as what is expected by our culture/society).
There are many other books that might help you feel better about unschooling in general. Maybe others can post some books or sites that they feel will best help you with your questions. But honestly, just accepting each child for who they are and letting them set the pace of their lives and learning is what we do. It is hard to trust our kids when we weren't trusted ourselves (and when we have been schooled ourselves). But you can do it...a little more and a little more each day. Notice what they ARE learning and doing and you'll have more confidence over time.
Aside: My third child (ds 8) learned to read (and is still learning more and more words...reading and writing) by using and playing online games and Magic The Gathering and Pokemon cards and by me reading to him. If I prevented him from going online or limited his exposure to the things he loved, he might not have the desire to read or do what he does to be who he is right now. I am grateful for trusting him and helping him do what he enjoys. Kids have this natural yearning for learning. We can foster their love of learning by helping them find things they enjoy.
Some books I like that you may like :
Rue Kream's book, "Parenting a Free Child" (listed above already)
Ned and Luz Vare "Smarting Us Up"
"How Children Learn" and "How Children Fail" - both by John Holt
"Book of learning and forgetting" by Frank Smith
Laurie :)
> What insight am I missing here?Whatever he is doing is right for him. Support him and let him know you are on his side and keep on the lookout for things you think he might like and share them with him (and be okay with it if he is not interested..the key is that you want to help him find things you think he might like).
> What is the right thing for my son?
> Will he grow up to be a hermit who can't do math or read a handwritten note?I doubt he will grow up like that although there are worse things in life. Does he want to be able to read script or handwritten notes right now? If he does truly *want* to at some point, do you think he could do so? Would you be willing to help him learn to read handwritten or script notes if he wanted you help in the future? Kids generally can learn what they want WHEN they want to. Try not to judge him for not wanting to do what you think he should be doing already. Let him learn in his own time and at his own pace. Even if he never learned to read script, likely someone would be available to read to him, althought he may have to wait sometimes. Most things are typed out, but not everything.
> Will he be angry with me that I didn't make him go to school and learn stuff?You can't predict what he will wish in the future. There is always something you look back on and say, Gee, if only I had known this I would have done that. That's life. If he doesn't want to go to school now, and you accept that, then he will likely appreciate that you are supporting him. You can't make him learn if he goes to school anyway. The learning takes place only if one is ready and willing and wanting to learn. Teachers in school can force kids to do assignments. But they can't force learning. Learning happens when one wants to know something and is ready and wanting to understand something.
> Will he be a failure?What is a failure? A person who doesn't live up to some culturally expected standard? Or your standard? Alfie Kohn has a great dvd called "Unconditional Parenting" (there's a book too). See if you can get it from your library. It talks in the beginning about what we really want for our children and general parenting ways to live with our kids so they have many of those wonderful qualities. And honestly, they are not acedemic qualities, but qualities like kindness, and honesty and confidence and all the things people honor in other good people.
> What if he never has any friends or refuses to drive anywhere?Maybe he is happy that way. Maybe he'll change. Try to accept him. Truly accept him. How would you treat your spouse if she didn't have as many friends as you thought she should have? Would you accept that she is more of an introvert or would you feel ashamed of her and wish her to be something different than she was? Even without saying so directly, people know what you think sometimes. If he doesn't drive for now, is he finding other ways to meet his needs for going places if he wishes to? If your son had a handicap that prevented him from driving forever, would you be willing to help him? Be grateful he doesn't have that handicap right now and just help him. Isn't that what you are there for? Don't you want to help him do what he wants to do? If not, then why are you unschooling? Don't you want him to know he can rely on you?
> Will I always be supporting him?Only time will tell. If you don't want to support him at any point, you could force him to leave, right? Are you planning already to tell him he has to be out of the house by a certain age or something? Some families do this. And some kids can't wait to get out of their families homes. It is a priviledge to have our kids at home with us. For whatever time we have together, appreciate it and cherish it and them. Find a way to live more joyfully.
> Will he ever get a job or earn an income?
Why waste your time worrying about the future. Love and support him now. The more self-confidence and trust your son has, the more ready he will be to be on his own at some point. ("at some point" will be whenever it is....but again, you have the power to kick you kid out or give him up for adoption...it is a choice you have made to keep him in your home and feel loved and accepted or not.)
> Putting it all togetherYour kids are so young still!
> Can I juggle the designing and building of the new house with the selling of the old house AND the unschooling of the kids????> My fears are working on me and making it difficult for me to be the gentle, open parent that I want to be.
> Dad to Peter (9) and Sophia (12)
Check out this book "Parenting a Free Child" by Rue Kream (My ablsolute favorite book for parenting/unschooling! Here's a link to her book/site...http://www.freechild.info/
And ...Dayna Martin (unschooler from Vermont) has wonderful, honest youtube videos that discussing trusting our kids and unschooling and living joyfully. Here's a link to her web page. Click on whatever video you are interested in from there. http://www.unschoolingamerica.com/videos.asp
Check out Dayna's book also: "Radical Unschooling: A Revolution has Begun"
Scott Noelle's "The Daily Groove" (give inspirational words each day with regard to living with our loved little ones so that we enjoy parenting and our lives in general more.)
http://www.enjoyparenting.com/
Pam Leo's website:
http://www.connectionparenting.com/
Pam Leo wrote an excellent book (also available on cd or mp3 dwnld and read by her): "Connection Parenting: Parenting through Connection instead of Coercion
through Love instead of Fear" You can access a streaming audio interview from her home page too.
Free download or listen on computer:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
I have more favorite resources (please email me directly and I'll send them to you if you'd like).
Also, go to an unschooling conference if you can. So reassuring to see other families embracing this lifestyle. Nice to meet people in real life living similar ways and sharing some common values (which are not always the same as what is expected by our culture/society).
There are many other books that might help you feel better about unschooling in general. Maybe others can post some books or sites that they feel will best help you with your questions. But honestly, just accepting each child for who they are and letting them set the pace of their lives and learning is what we do. It is hard to trust our kids when we weren't trusted ourselves (and when we have been schooled ourselves). But you can do it...a little more and a little more each day. Notice what they ARE learning and doing and you'll have more confidence over time.
Aside: My third child (ds 8) learned to read (and is still learning more and more words...reading and writing) by using and playing online games and Magic The Gathering and Pokemon cards and by me reading to him. If I prevented him from going online or limited his exposure to the things he loved, he might not have the desire to read or do what he does to be who he is right now. I am grateful for trusting him and helping him do what he enjoys. Kids have this natural yearning for learning. We can foster their love of learning by helping them find things they enjoy.
Some books I like that you may like :
Rue Kream's book, "Parenting a Free Child" (listed above already)
Ned and Luz Vare "Smarting Us Up"
"How Children Learn" and "How Children Fail" - both by John Holt
"Book of learning and forgetting" by Frank Smith
Laurie :)
Debra Rossing
> Have you played with him? While it's not necessary to be as involvedas he is, to build a relationship -- and ease your worries -- it helps a
great deal to get a deep understanding of what he loves and how
involving and challenging they can be, and to know enough to have a good
understanding of what he's talking about so you can converse with him.
LOL I know WAY more about Pokemon, Bionicles, and Ratchet & Clank than I
ever thought possible! I even beat Pokemon Sapphire (go me!) Just as I
recognize some of the styles/musicians that DH enjoys (he's got a bit of
an eclectic taste tending toward filk and Celtic currently - heck, how
many people know that filk exists! Or that there is a distinctly Celtic
blues), I can understand when DS talks about his 'stuff' and ask
appropriate questions, make appropriate comments, etc. I can't play most
videogames (the motion aspect of the ones DS and DH enjoy makes me
queasy) but I CAN keep an eye out for new releases, game guides, similar
games and I can learn to recognize terminology, characters, good things
and not good things (difficult boss battles for example).
Deb R
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Vickisue Gray
> My son, who is 9 today, watches TV all day or plays on-line videogames. He doesn't want to leave the house, says he hates driving
anywhere. I get soooo bored sitting around with him. He's not doing
anything!! I am wondering if he is really learning anything or in 9
years will I have an 18 year old who can't even read a ruler to measure
something or do simple math?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Maybe it's already been said, so my apologies if so. When I first started reading the unschooling information, one basic thing jumped out at me. It was some advise to stop focusing so much on what the child was doing, and go unschool one's self, meaning, you are not required to 'sit around with him' and be bored! You could be finding your own passion! I remember it being pointed out that parents who enjoy reading, have kids that tend to enjoy reading. If you like woodworking, knitting, researching, writing, gardening, geocaching... make some plans!
I tend to do lots of research. Now I see my son, age 12, researching all types of things he is curious about. My spouse would tell you to 'treat him as a curious pony' (We raise minis.) What my spouse does to draw a young foal over to him, is to not look directly at them and then he shows great interest in something nearby. It never fails! Curiosity makes them have to come see what you are doing! Then he always makes sure to leave them on a positive note; a scratching of their itchy spot so to say. Kids work in a very similar way. They are naturally curious and if that curiosity is rewarded, then they will continue to come over to explore more.
It's sort of like pulling out the Lego's because you're simply in the mood to build something or putting a puzzle together. Around my home, usually, someone is jumping in to join you. If I am happy cooking, I find I tend to get lots of help in the kitchen. If I paint? Not so much but they will certainly come watch or voice opinions, lol. I try and always focus on what my son needs to tell me. Sometimes it's hard for me as he explains the complex workings and designs of games like Dwarf Fortress. Last night, I surprised him. As I was folding the laundry, he came into the room where I was so we could play his game creation designed similar to a D&D format. I was to build a dwarf city starting with ten dwarves whom had escaped the destruction of their homeland by giants. Anyway, I raised quite a few questions which had him hugging me! He said he hadn't realized just how much I had listened to his Dwarf Fortress stories! =)
Peace and Laughter,
Vicki mom to dd 19, dd 17 & ds 12
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
faithv
> My son, who is 9 today, watches TV all day or plays on-line video games.***That is very common among that age children. It's a big transition time. Also, those are both very diverse interests in themselves.
TV can be a wonderful way to find stories and information. Video games are very complex puzzles to solve.
I find that when parents say all the time it is not a totally accurate picture of what is happening. Can you quietly observe him for a week or so. Write down everything he does, everything you talk to him about, books or other reading material, each game or program rather than lumping it together in "watching TV" "playing video games"
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He doesn't want to leave the house, says he hates driving anywhere. I get soooo bored sitting around with him.
***I can totally relate to this. My 7 year old doesn't like to leave the house. I get bored being home, fidgety. I need to get out. I am not bored with him, just with sedentary activity. It isn't my thing.
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He's not doing anything!! I am wondering if he is really learning anything or in 9 years will I have an 18 year old who can't even read a ruler to measure something or do simple math?
***Is that really true? You just said that he is watching TV and playing Video games, that IS doing something. Again, I would suggest a diary of some sort writing down everything he does, individually
. Everything you discuss or explore, Google or whatever.
I think you are jumping the gun with this. He's 9. It will do you no good to worry about 9 years from now. Be with the child you have right now, in this minute. He may not be there in the next one.
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He has learned to read some from the video games but asks me to read stuff written in script because he can't read script. Is he going to need me to read script for him forever??!!
***It's possible but doubtful. My oldest learned to read script by an interest in calligraphy at 11. My 7 has off an on explored script because it is visually beautiful to him. He can not read, print or script. He can recognize all print letters and many script letters. No one in our home writes in script regularly. It is very rare in modern society to see script. It is becoming antiquated.
I believe that if he desires to read script then he will. He is probably picking up a lot while you read it to him.
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If I am going to be home with the kids I'd really like to be going somewhere with them, not sitting around the house playing video games all day. If we are out and about, I imagine that they will be learning things and growing from the new experiences.
***I learn that way, my oldest and youngest learn that way. We love to explore new places. we learn from being out and about. We love it and crave it. But there are many ways to learn. My ds7 prefers home. He learns by watching so TV and internet really speak to him.
When we have children we are responsible for meeting their needs even if they differ from ours, even if we don't understand them.
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My wife says my son is learning things while he plays on-line. She says he talks about life and his observations. She judges that to be learning. She says he needs time alone and when or if he is ready, he'll get out there and make friends. I disagree. I think he is isolating himself and that this isolation is damaging to him.
***Some people have more of a need to be alone than others. He is likely an introvert. My dh is as well. He spends hours and hours alone in front of the computer. He needs quiet alone time regularly. He gravitated towards graphic design and computer programming because that interested him and meets his needs as an introvert.
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She also says that he does things like day dream or play with his sister. And, that is all learning and growing too, according to her. I don't see much of this. I just see the TV watching and on-line game playing.
***Looking is important. Sometimes when we get an idea in mind we lock on to it. We might not see other things.
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I need to work some because my wife's income covers only 80% of our current expenses. Once we sell our house and move to the country, her salary will cover our expenses. We hope to make the move over the course of this next year, but we'll need my income while we've refinanced for the land and before built our new house and sold our current one. We think this will take a year.
***Your children are young but old enough to include in problem solving. Ask them for ideas.
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>***Keep reading here. Keeping looking for deeper insight.
> What insight am I missing here?
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> What is the right thing for my son?***great question. He knows. Listen to him by watching him.
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> Will he grow up to be a hermit who can't do math or read a handwritten note?***That's possible but not probable if you are a conscientious parent. Numbers are part of life. Words surround us, reading happens. Most people that I know write in print these days.So I doubt that reading and writing script is a very important skill. It has never cost me a job :-)
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> Will he be angry with me that I didn't make him go to school and learn stuff?***That is doubtful. Do you feel good when people force you to do things? What if your wife demanded that you learn to knit?
He is learning stuff. He is learning what he needs to right now. He may be learning about himself in a quiet way.
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> Will he be a failure?***What does that mean?
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> What if he never has any friends or refuses to drive anywhere?***Cross that bridge if and when it comes.
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> Will I always be supporting him?***Another "worry" that isn't pertinent to his and your relationship NOW.
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> Will he ever get a job or earn an income?***He is 9. He will likely need you to support him for several more years.
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>***These are legitimate fears. Consider them but don't focus on them. Do what builds your family.
> Also, finance and house related:
> Will the transition to a rural life work for us?
> We've had financial trouble in the past and the economy is bad now�will we be able to make things work for us over the next year of selling and building or will we find ourselves in worse financial shape?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>***Unschooling in the simplest terms is living your life. So if you are asking if you can follow your dreams and have children while living you life then YES! You can do whatever you want to do.
> Putting it all together�
> Can I juggle the designing and building of the new house with the selling of the old house AND the unschooling of the kids????
What are your options? What are the various scenarios your see for your family? What are the needs of your family members?
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>***Unfortunately this is what you have and this is when you have. Ok, maybe that's fortunate. Be here and now. Live for the moment while focusing on your long term goals.
> My fears are working on me and making it difficult for me to be the gentle, open parent that I want to be.
>
BTW My oldest (12) met your son at Enjoy Life Unschooling conference and liked him. SO I feel I can safely say that making friends are not an issue. He is a likable person.
Faith