food and rudeness

Chrissy

25 Jan 2010, at 5:34pm

i don't want to sound like i am beating a dead horse as i know this is a hot topic but i just don't know what to do next!

clark will be six in just a few weeks and when he was little he loved all kinds of foods but mostly fruits and vegetables and prepared all different ways too! i have read that it is natural for children's taste buds to become ultra sensitive and for them to begin refusing foods they have always loved so i was ok with it for a long time. after about a year i started to worry so they started taking a chewable supplement which i suppose is better than nothing but it still isn't food. now it's been literally years of him eating barely anything that isn't white. for almost a year know i have been trying the unschooling philosophy about food but it still isn't working. when he makes choices on his own without my giving him any advice or anything he eats cereal and some sweets. when i give him some advice and information (like think about what you ate today and what your body needs to thrive etc) it is a bit better but not even close to enough. he'll eat an occasional carrot or a green salad (which is solely greens and dressing)and his fruits are limited to the rare (and i mean RARE) apple, pineapple, or bit of melon, and maybe 2 or 3 bananas a week max. i adore smoothies and make them often and he has tried a few (and i have tried all kinds of combinations for him) and when he has caught me with tears in my eyes (i try so hard not to let him see how worried i am because i don't want it to come off as a guilt trip) he forces himself to drink a bit of one.

when his eating is the most limitied in variety i see him growing paler, his nails growing slower, and dark circles under his eyes.

as far as rudeness as we continue to unschool he becomes ruder and ruder. if he's asked by my mom to do something (and they are very close) he says things like "NO! and you can't make me and you can't punish me!" i have talked to him and explained that he's not being sent to a corner because we love him and we don't want to embarrass him or make him feel ashamed and sad. that we are all a part of this family and we all live in this house and we work together to make it a happy place to live. he's totally not getting it. before unschooling he was a sweet, kind, helpful boy. now he is often mean, demanding,and seems to think less of others' feelings. before unschooling we were pretty close to it already. we did use time out but rarely and my husband yelled (and is still working on it). the biggest changes have been asking instead of demanding, offering more choices, rethinking the "house rules", saying "yes" more and "no" less but. none of it has been drasitic change-i mean it's not like we used to beat them or verbally abuse them and they have never gone to school or even had a real babysitter (i can count the times my parents have watched them for more than a one hour visit to the ob) I expected things to be more peaceful by now but they are so much worse! what am i doing wrong? my heart is breaking over all of this and i just don't know what to do.

-chrissy

Jenna Robertson

25 Jan 2010, at 11:02pm

I'm saying this gently and from the bottom of my heart:
Let go.

"(and i have tried all kinds of combinations for him) and when he has
caught me with tears in my eyes (i try so hard not to let him see how
worried i am because i don't want it to come off as a guilt trip) he
forces himself to drink a bit of one."

You are still influencing his food choices. He knows how you really feel about what he is eating and he feels the pressure to make you happy. Buy him whatever he wants, support him in his choices with out pressure. And then with no investment in what he ends up eating, set out foods you think he might enjoy when he seems hungry. As long as you are worried, as long as you are invested in what he eats, he's going to know. Let go. After you let go and he truly feels free to make his own choices then when you set out fruits and veggies next to the marshmallows he can eat both and feel good because the food is yummy, instead of feeling guilty because he's not making mommy happy.

As far as rudeness:
"NO! and you can't make me and you can't punish me!" i have talked to
him and explained that he's not being sent to a corner because we love
him and we don't want to embarrass him or make him feel ashamed and
sad. that we are all a part of this family and we all live in this
house and we work together to make it a happy place to live. he's
totally not getting it.

I would say that he's getting it loud and clear. Even though you aren't using those methods directly, you are still using the threat of them, the idea of them, the "we could do this but we don't" to control his behavior. He should be free to say "no" if it's not something he wants to do right then. It would seem that he doesn't truly feel free to say "no" so he is justifying his behavior, giving himself the right, or at the very least protecting himself from punishment.

Perhaps the issue isn't rudeness on his part, but lack of respect for his "no" on the part of adults. If he felt that he could just say "no" and be heard and respected he would not need to yell or protect himself. He's not being rude, he's trying to get his needs met.

You might also look at age and development and how that affects your view of your son's behavior. If you began unschooling several years ago and he's now almost 6, then he was initially at an age where some children are naturally helpful because what grownups do is new and interesting. By the time you are 6 that's not so exciting anymore and you want to explore new things. Let go of your expectation that he will help. Find joy in the things that he is interested in exploring now and share that with him. You seem to have gotten to a rather negative place in your thinking about him,"now he is often mean, demanding,and seems to think less of others' feelings." Try and focus on the things you like about him, that you enjoy about him, that can work wonders.

:)
Jenna

"What's the matter with you? All it takes is faith and trust. Oh! And something I forgot. Dust!"......" Yep, just a little bit of pixie dust. Now, think of the happiest things. It's the same as having wings." - Peter Pan

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otherstar

25 Jan 2010, at 11:34pm

>>>You might also look at age and development and how that affects your view of your son's behavior. If you began unschooling several years ago and he's now almost 6, then he was initially at an age where some children are naturally helpful because what grownups do is new and interesting. By the time you are 6 that's not so exciting anymore and you want to explore new things. Let go of your expectation that he will help. Find joy in the things that he is interested in exploring now and share that with him. You seem to have gotten to a rather negative place in your thinking about him,"now he is often mean, demanding,and seems to think less of others' feelings." Try and focus on the things you like about him, that you enjoy about him, that can work wonders.<<<

I just wanted to highlight this. I think it is pretty normal for a six year old to be rude and push boundaries. Really, it is normal for all kids to do this. Saying that a 6 year old is mean, demanding, and thinks less of others feelings is kind of harsh. Even if it is true, it comes across very negatively. When my 5 year old gets like this, I try to surprise her with something that she isn't expecting. I find that it is easy for me to get in ruts in my relationship with my kids. When I am in a rut, all of their negative traits are magnified in my mind. When I find myself thinking that way, I try to find one thing that I can do to change the dynamic. It may be making it a point to find something positive. It may be doing something special. It may be buying them something that they have been wanting. The other day I made it a point to take my five year old out with me by herself.

I also had the thought that maybe the six year old is rude and grumpy because he really is hungry. When I don't have food that my kids like around the house, they don't eat or will eat something they don't care for and will do it begrudgingly. I can tell that they are still hungry because they are still grumpy. When I see them doing that, we make a trip to the grocery store together and let them pick out whatever they want to eat. If they pick out ice cream and want to eat nothing but ice cream for the day, that is fine. Ice cream has milk and other trace nutrients. : -) If she isn't eating like I think I she should, I will whip up her favorite food even if it is a chocolate milk shake. What kids eat for one day or even one week doesn't matter. What matters is how they eat over time. My 8 year old used to want to eat chocolate and candy all the time. Now that she is older she will turn down sweets in favor of other stuff. My 5 year old is still in the sweets phase. Knowing that her big sister went through a period of a couple years where it seemed like all she ate was "junk" is very comforting.

Connie

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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

26 Jan 2010, at 12:07am

Its not clear how long have you let go started unschooling., your son is not quite 6 yet . I am going to try to understand so bear with me.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

<<<<<clark will be six in just a few weeks and when he was little he loved all kinds of foods but mostly fruits and vegetables and prepared all different ways too! i have read that it is natural for children's taste buds to become ultra sensitive and for them to begin refusing foods they have always loved so i was ok with it for a long time. after about a year i started to worry so they started taking a chewable supplement which i suppose is better than nothing but it still isn't food.>>>>>>>

-=-=-=-=-=-=

Do you mean after about a year since you started saying yes more and letting them eat what they want?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

<<<<<<<< now it's been literally years of him eating barely anything that isn't white. for almost a year know i have been trying the unschooling philosophy about food but it still isn't working.>>>>>>>

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Ok Let me see if I got this right. WHen your ds was little he ate some fruits and vegetables then he started eating ONLY white foods.
He was eating only white foods before you were unschooling. Then a year after you started unschooling and he is still eating the same way. DId I get this right?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

<<<<<when he makes choices on his own without my giving him any advice or anything he eats cereal and some sweets. when i give him some advice and information (like think about what you ate today and what your body needs to thrive etc) it is a bit better but not even close to enough. >>>>

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

There are so many issues here in this phrase.
So if you don't say anything he only eats cereal and sweet stuff ( whatever that is)
If you tell him his choices are not good he may eat a little better.
'SO you are still telling him he is not making the right choices. He is still not able to trust his body and what feels good to him?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

<<<<<<he'll eat an occasional carrot or a green salad (which is solely greens and dressing)and his fruits are limited to the rare (and i meRARE) apple, pineapple, or bit of melon, and maybe 2 or 3 bananas a week max>>>

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Do you just tell him what he should be eating or do you make stuff and offer him Monkey Platters?

http://sandradodd.com/eating/monkeyplatter

I know only two kids that age that eat green salad with dressing.
So he eats more than just white stuff and sweets and he does eat fruits?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

<<<<<<i adore smoothies and make them often and he has tried a few (and i have tried all kinds of combinations for him) and when he has caught me with tears in my eyes (i try so hard not to let him see how worried i am because i don't want it to come off as a guilt trip) he forces himself to drink a bit of one. >>>>>>>

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

That is a lot of baggage for a kid not even 6 years old yet to carry. YOu really need to step back and stop guiltying him into eating what you think is good for him and letting him make his choices.
Eating out of guilt and something you do not want to are a step from an eating disorder.
I rather my kid eats only white stuff, cereal, a little salad and 3 fruits all his life than to put that upon him.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

<<<<when his eating is the most limitied in variety i see him growing paler, his nails growing slower, and dark circles under his eyes.>>>>

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

So he sometimes eats more variety? OR does he do it when he feels guilty or that he should cause mom said so?
Do you think that somehow making him to eat smoothies and vegetables is going to create a healthy eating person?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

<<<<as far as rudeness as we continue to unschool he becomes ruder and ruder. if he's asked by my mom to do something (and they are very close) he says things like "NO! and you can't make me and you can't punish me!" i have talked to him and explained that he's not being sent to a corner because we love him and we don't want to embarrass him or make him feel ashamed and sad. that we are all a part of this family and we a
ll live in this house and we work together to make it a happy place to live. he's totally not getting it. >>>>

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

So he really has no choice right?
I ask my kids to help a lot.
SOmetimes they say yes , sometimes they say no.
My 7 year old says way more yes than no unless he is busy playing and I really just try not to ask him then.
But if I do it is really cause I need help and he has been so kind to me.
I also say a lot of yes when he asks me.
He asks me a lot for drink in his room when he is upstair and I gladly take one for him.
So many times his sister is sleeping in my arms and I call him up and he stops what he is doing to come get me something.
But he truely can say no and not have to listen over and over how he needs to be part of the family yada-yada.
its amazing how when you have the freedom to make a choice you don't have to react and feel forced to make the "right" choice according to others.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

<<<<before unschooling he was a sweet, kind, helpful boy. now he is often mean, demanding,and seems to think less of others' feelings. before unschooling we were pretty close to it already. we did use time out but rarely and my husband yelled (and is still working on it). the biggest changes have been asking instead of demanding, offering more choices, rethinking the "house rules", saying "yes" more and "no" less but.>>>>>

--=-=-=-=-=-=-=

It did not sound like he had a choice to say no it may still feel like a demand instead of asking but maybe in a nice way.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

<<<none of it has been drasitic change-i mean it's not like we used to beat them or verbally abuse them and they have never gone to school or even had a real babysitter (i can count the times my parents have watched them for more than a one hour visit to the ob) I expected things to be more peaceful by now but they are so much worse! what am i doing wrong? my heart is breaking over all of this and i just don't know what to do.>>>>

-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-

We don;t have a whole picture of how he is getting worse. The only issue you brought was about him saying no when asked to do something that in the end he has not a real choice other than a yes or else he is made to feel like bad.
A choice is a choice. Yes , no or maybe. If he cannot choose no then it is not a choice. It is not a request but a demand.

Maybe if you give us some more information of how exactly he is being rude ?
Has anything else changed in his life in the last year?

Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

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Monica Van Stelton

26 Jan 2010, at 12:39am

Hello,
I think that they eating habits are very important specially when they are children because they need to nourish their growing bodies and also because it sets the habits for the rest of their lives ( unless they suddenly realize that it is bad). I've seen it once when I went to a buffet, two tables in front of us there was a family, the mom was obese, the father was obese, guess their children...yes, obese. I really felt bad for them and a bit embarrassed for them for being that big and eating at all you can eat type of restaurant. If the daughter would have had parents who care about their bodies ( not for the looks but for the health) I bet she would've never been that unhealthy.
I think it all starts with modeling healthy eating and behavior. If you do not have ice cream or candy in the house then they can't eat it. If they never saw it they would never know what it is therefore they would not crave it. I think only when they can understand how sugar, as an example, messes up their body then they could have sugar, because they are making an informed decision and since it is their body they can choose what they want to do. For example, my child is going to cross the busy road and he is only 10 month old, at that age they don't understand what would happened if they get hit by a car, so I can't let him cross. The same way goes for food, I wouldn't let my child to anything that is not good for him because he doesn't understand why is not good and what happens to the body when he eats it. Until then I feel responsible for what I offer him and expose him to.
Anyway, this is my input...it may not go well with unschooling but I wouldn't give him anything that I know is not good. IF unschooling is freedom of choice then I can choose not to do something, right?
Monica

--- On Mon, 1/25/10, otherstar <otherstar@...> wrote:

From: otherstar <otherstar@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] food and rudeness
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, January 25, 2010, 8:34 PM

>>>You might also look at age and development and how that affects your view of your son's behavior. If you began unschooling several years ago and he's now almost 6, then he was initially at an age where some children are naturally helpful because what grownups do is new and interesting. By the time you are 6 that's not so exciting anymore and you want to explore new things. Let go of your expectation that he will help. Find joy in the things that he is interested in exploring now and share that with him. You seem to have gotten to a rather negative place in your thinking about him,"now he is often mean, demanding,and seems to think less of others' feelings." Try and focus on the things you like about him, that you enjoy about him, that can work wonders.<<<

I just wanted to highlight this. I think it is pretty normal for a six year old to be rude and push boundaries. Really, it is normal for all kids to do this. Saying that a 6 year old is mean, demanding, and thinks less of others feelings is kind of harsh. Even if it is true, it comes across very negatively. When my 5 year old gets like this, I try to surprise her with something that she isn't expecting. I find that it is easy for me to get in ruts in my relationship with my kids. When I am in a rut, all of their negative traits are magnified in my mind. When I find myself thinking that way, I try to find one thing that I can do to change the dynamic. It may be making it a point to find something positive. It may be doing something special. It may be buying them something that they have been wanting. The other day I made it a point to take my five year old out with me by herself.

I also had the thought that maybe the six year old is rude and grumpy because he really is hungry. When I don't have food that my kids like around the house, they don't eat or will eat something they don't care for and will do it begrudgingly. I can tell that they are still hungry because they are still grumpy. When I see them doing that, we make a trip to the grocery store together and let them pick out whatever they want to eat. If they pick out ice cream and want to eat nothing but ice cream for the day, that is fine. Ice cream has milk and other trace nutrients. : -) If she isn't eating like I think I she should, I will whip up her favorite food even if it is a chocolate milk shake. What kids eat for one day or even one week doesn't matter. What matters is how they eat over time. My 8 year old used to want to eat chocolate and candy all the time. Now that she is older she will turn down sweets in favor of other stuff. My 5 year old is still in the
sweets phase. Knowing that her big sister went through a period of a couple years where it seemed like all she ate was "junk" is very comforting.

Connie

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

26 Jan 2010, at 1:14am

<<<If you do not have ice cream or candy in the house then they can't eat it.>>>>

-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-

Not when they are young but even a 7 year old will probably be somewhere where there is ice-cream and candy and then what?
Why is ice-cream off limits???

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

<<<<< If they never saw it they would never know what it is therefore they would not crave it. >>>>>>

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

So how are you going to do that?
Are you goingto keep them closed up in your home so they don't find out that ice-cream and candy exists?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

<<<<<<I think only when they can understand how sugar, as an example, messes up their body then they could have sugar, because they are making an informed decision and since it is their body they can choose what they want to do.>>>>>

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Sugar messes up people that have diabetes and even those people can have sugar if careful.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

<<<<For example, my child is going to cross the busy road and he is only 10 month old, at that age they don't understand what would happened if they get hit by a car, so I can't let him cross. The same way goes for food, I wouldn't let my child to anything that is not good for him because he doesn't understand why is not good and what happens to the body when he eats it. Until then I feel responsible for what I offer him and expose him to. >>>>>

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

And how is a child eating ice-cream or candy the same as letting a 10 month old cross a street in front of cars?
Really?
My kids eat candy and ice cream as much as they want.
My 4 year old has a huge cake full of frosting in the refrigerator right now.
THere are also several containers of ice-cream in the fridge and she just brought me some whole wheat crackes and cheese so I could give it to her.

HEre are some good links about food
YOu child is young so you have lots of time to read this:

http://sandradodd.com/food

http://tinyurl.com/ykgl4md%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 make sure click on the link Obesity Begins at Home for the great video

Or are you afraid that if you you child finds out about candy and ice-cream they will eat nothing but those things???

http://sandradodd.com/strew/ifilet

Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

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otherstar

26 Jan 2010, at 3:49am

From: Monica Van Stelton
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 11:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] food and rudeness

>>>I think that they eating habits are very important specially when they are children because they need to nourish their growing bodies and also because it sets the habits for the rest of their lives ( unless they suddenly realize that it is bad).<<<

Children need to learn balance, not imposed limits. How can you claim to know exactly what a child needs in order to nourish his body? A lot of people have childhoods where they are constantly exposed to something but choose to reject that as an adult.

>>>I've seen it once when I went to a buffet, two tables in front of us there was a family, the mom was obese, the father was obese, guess their children...yes, obese. I really felt bad for them and a bit embarrassed for them for being that big and eating at all you can eat type of restaurant. If the daughter would have had parents who care about their bodies ( not for the looks but for the health) I bet she would've never been that unhealthy.<<<

I am curious how you know that a family is obese because they don't care. There are a ton of things that you do not know about that family. I am obese. Does that mean that I shouldn't ever eat at a buffet?

>>>I think it all starts with modeling healthy eating and behavior. If you do not have ice cream or candy in the house then they can't eat it. If they never saw it they would never know what it is therefore they would not crave it.<<<

Is it healthy to avoid certain foods at all costs? Is avoiding birthday parties because you don't want your kid exposed to cake and ice cream healthy? Do you police everything in your house to make sure that your child never sees ice cream or candy? How is that healthy?

>>>I think only when they can understand how sugar, as an example, messes up their body then they could have sugar, because they are making an informed decision and since it is their body they can choose what they want to do.<<<

>>>For example, my child is going to cross the busy road and he is only 10 month old, at that age they don't understand what would happened if they get hit by a car, so I can't let him cross. The same way goes for food, I wouldn't let my child to anything that is not good for him because he doesn't understand why is not good and what happens to the body when he eats it. Until then I feel responsible for what I offer him and expose him to.<<<

Eating ice cream is not walking in front of traffic. That is your baggage not his. When a child is 10 months old, it is really easy to think that you can limit what is offered and what he is exposed to. As a child gets older, they naturally get further and further away from mom and expand their social circles. They are going to be exposed to a whole host of things that you have no control over. Setting things up with this dynamic creates a recipe for binging.

>>>Anyway, this is my input...it may not go well with unschooling but I wouldn't give him anything that I know is not good. IF unschooling is freedom of choice then I can choose not to do something, right?<<<

Joyce Fetteroll

26 Jan 2010, at 4:09am

On Jan 25, 2010, at 5:34 PM, Chrissy wrote:

> now it's been literally years of him eating barely anything that
> isn't white.

Kathryn ate a great variety of things until she was 4, then she
started narrowing. She'd eat fruit, cereal, macaroni and cheese,
olives and pickles, ice cream. Early on she ate chili so there was
usually something she could order at a restaurant. BBQ off an on, but
once those two were gone, there wasn't much left at a restaurant
except ice cream. And to top that off she'd get tired of the few
foods she would eat!

11, prepuberty, is when she started broadening. And she also
broadened bodywise! So that was tough too. But that's when most kids
do. Then she shot up and is now at 18 tall and thin and is very
adventurous in her eating.

> when he makes choices on his own without my giving him any advice
> or anything he eats cereal and some sweets.

Do you bring food to him? When kids have to get their food on their
own, they're going to choose whatever is quickest and easiest. I hope
you didn't get the idea that unschooling is about them feeding
themselves. Bring food to him. You could also eat with him with a
greater variety on your plate. Sometimes picking and sampling from
someone else can feel like less of a commitment ;-)

http://sandradodd.com/monkeyplatters/

Click through and there's a *huge* list of foods to choose from. Put
on things he likes. Put on some other things too.

Someone else also has a "monkey drawer". It's a low drawer with a
variety of easily grabbable foods.

Two other things you might add in: Draw him into the cooking, both
the dinner your making and making things he thinks might sound fun or
good to make. (Emeril has two very good kids cookbooks that I still
cook from occasionally.) Offer tastes as you go along to adjust
seasoning. But don't make him taste if he doesn't want to! And don't
make him eat what he creates if he doesn't want to either. But if
he's involved in the cooking, the process could help him try new things.

Also a garden, even if it's just a big container. Plant what he
thinks would be cool to grow. Draw him in but don't force him. Maybe
it would help to treat him as a friend who was hanging out, wording
your requests like "Hey, could you hand me that watering can?" so he
feels included but not conscripted labor. Often kids will eat things
they've grown that they'd never try elsewhere.

Joyce

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Joyce Fetteroll

26 Jan 2010, at 5:08am

On Jan 26, 2010, at 12:39 AM, Monica Van Stelton wrote:

> but I wouldn't give him anything that I know is not good

Neither did I. Why would anyone feed their child poison?

But to label food good or bad adds guilt into the mix and that's even
worse than a Twinkie. Have you ever watched someone eat a scrumptious
dessert with a swirl of negativity: "I really shouldn't. I'll regret
this tomorrow. I'm being so bad ..."? That's way worse than any of
the ingredients could possibly be.

Do watch the video linked at:

http://tinyurl.com/ykgl4md

It's naive to believe control of any part of a child's life works in
any general sense. Some kids are more people pleasers or easy going
so a parent can be deluded into believing control works when it's
personality that's working.

Most people believe that teens rebel because they're teens. From
reports of unschoolers, from my own experience, it's not true. What
creates rebellious teens is control. Control says "I care about my
values more than I care about you." It's the total opposite what
parents intend to say! But the actions don't match the intent.

Control is an illusion. The illusion generally disappears by the time
kids become teens.

We do, though, that the opportunity to be an influence in their
lives. To do that we need to let go of control. It's hard and it's
scary to trust! But it's *hugely* rewarding when they're older and
everyone else is complaining about their teens.

Joyce

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Sarah

26 Jan 2010, at 5:20am

"I've seen it once when I went to a buffet, two tables in front of us
there was a family, the mom was obese, the father was obese, guess their
children...yes, obese. I really felt bad for them and a bit embarrassed for them
for being that big and eating at all you can eat type of restaurant. If the
daughter would have had parents who care about their bodies ( not for the looks
but for the health) I bet she would've never been that unhealthy."

We know nothing about these people, nothing at all, but even assuming their weight us due to over/unhealthy eating... Do you think that they were radically unschooled? The more common pattern seems to be that a culture of guilt and yearning is built up by treating some foods as good but nasty and others as bad but desirable. Children and adults who eat what they want when they want stop eating when they are full. They listen to their bodies.

amberlee_b

26 Jan 2010, at 7:44am

Chrissy,

My son has been on "white" food for about 4 years now. I was worried when it started as all he would eat was shredded wheat cereal for breakfast, cheesy tortillas or mac & cheese for lunch and either skip what I made for dinner or have toast. (Have you seen the TV show Numb3rs? Where Larry eats only white food? We got a good chuckle out of that...) Kids bodies know what they need--I know it is tough to believe...but for some reason that is what his body needs right now. Frustrating that you can cook foods he doesn't like anymore, sure! However, if we relax and support them they do add other things in. Recently he has been eating 90% white 10% green. He doesn't like refined white as much as whole wheat--but we consider it white enough. If you really watch though you may see that one morning he has orange juice or an orange....or maybe an apple or applesauce. Yesterday all he wanted for dinner was a cup of broccoli. I think we as parents get so focused on the color of the food (white) that we miss the other colors that do make it onto the list.

Here is my other theory on the white foods. Most of these foods (including the OJ and the Broccoli) are high in calcium. Lots of cheeses, milk...I don't know about your son, but mine has been growing a lot and feeling the growing pains. His bones must really need the calcium. Sometimes I think the brain doesn't know how to tell you what you need so it sends cravings for something you will understand. Calcium=white foods with some green tossed in. My dd dislikes bananas, yet she was craving them this week. She needed potassium and her brain said "bananas". We found that a baked potato--high in potassium--worked great and she didn't have to eat something she has never really liked. I will crave chocolate which equates to calcium and magnesium. These are just observations I have made over the years.

It sounds like your son, and mine, have a texture thing. Mine is allergic to red food coloring and tomatoes don't taste good to him either. He loves pineapple... He gets the dark circles too.

A wise peditrician told me that kids bodies know exactly what they need and how much. If a child doesn't eat their lunch or dinner they will be hungry again soon enough and they won't starve. We tend to think in adult proportions, or worse restaurant proportions, forgetting these are kids who have tiny stomachs! lol

As for the rudeness, it sounds like he is getting it completely. He sounds like a kid who is rebelling against the way things were. One who is correct in saying he doesn't have to do something, unless he chooses too. We can not control anyone but ourselves. Putting him in the corner is giving him mixed messages. "It's ok to make your own choices but when you do you have to go to the corner". I don't see the love there myself, in fact I see myself going NO, you can't make me go to or stand in the corner. I think it would help to put yourself in his shoes. He is told he can make his own choices as to what he does or how it is done. We work together because we choose to. If a child wants to do dishes, they can, but they can also say no. With no repercussions, no yelling, pleading, coercing. He needs to know his feelings are valid. That he is allowed to choose YES or NO. He is right. He shouldn't be sent to a corner and embarrassed or shamed by those he loves. He may have seemed sweet and kind/helpful, but he could have been doing it to avoid other consequences. I know I was that way, until I rebelled and said forget that! He is a kid. He is going to be sucked up into his own world not noticing what needs to be done in your eyes for a long long time. If you support him and let him know his decisions are OK whether they are yes or no or whether they conform to what you would like or not, then eventually he will do things without being asked because he SEES it. Not because it is forced upon him.

My eldest is 14 now and he helps out so much without being asked. He is so relaxed about things now because he knows we honor his Yes and his NO and that he really has an honest choice in any matter. I have gotten up to find clean laundry ready to be put away simply because he felt like doing it. Unschooling/Life schooling principles really do work, when you relax and give them time (aka years) to grow.

I don't think your son is being rude, it looks like he is being human. Put yourself in his shoes....if your husband told you you had to work together and it was time for you to do the dishes and if you didn't you had to sit in the corner out of love not embarrassment, you'd be rightfully ticked off. You'd be rude to him...I know I would be. Once we put ourselves in the shoes of another we can find better ways to interact, find what they need and help them get it.

I hope this rambling comes across in the way it was meant to. I haven't had much sleep. :( Just hang in there and know we are never meant to fix our kids, only ourselves! It sounds like you are working really hard to get there. Just relax. Housework will eventually get done--your babies are only little for such a short time. They will remember the small things, do you want to be remembered for the house/housework being more important? I know I don't. My kids will always be more important that the sink of dishes or the laundry. Even if I have to do it myself later, when they don't need me....

Hugs,
Amberlee

> as far as rudeness as we continue to unschool he becomes ruder and ruder. if he's asked by my mom to do something (and they are very close) he says things like "NO! and you can't make me and you can't punish me!" i have talked to him and explained that he's not being sent to a corner because we love him and we don't want to embarrass him or make him feel ashamed and sad. that we are all a part of this family and we all live in this house and we work together to make it a happy place to live. he's totally not getting it. before unschooling he was a sweet, kind, helpful boy. now he is often mean, demanding,and seems to think less of others' feelings. before unschooling we were pretty close to it already. we did use time out but rarely and my husband yelled (and is still working on it). the biggest changes have been asking instead of demanding, offering more choices, rethinking the "house rules", saying "yes" more and "no" less but. none of it has been drasitic change-i mean it's not like we used to beat them or verbally abuse them and they have never gone to school or even had a real babysitter (i can count the times my parents have watched them for more than a one hour visit to the ob) I expected things to be more peaceful by now but they are so much worse! what am i doing wrong? my heart is breaking over all of this and i just don't know what to do.
>
> -chrissy
>

amberlee_b

26 Jan 2010, at 7:48am

Yes!!! Exactly what Jenna said. I should have read this first. Especially the part about feeling pressured to make someone else happy. Awesome post, thanks Jenna!

Debra Rossing

26 Jan 2010, at 8:14am

> Sugar messes up people that have diabetes and even those people can

have sugar if careful.

CARBS mess up people with diabetes - whether it's whole grain homemade
bread or a Hershey bar, it's carbs. The difference is that a slice of
whole grain bread digests more slowly so it doesn't raise blood glucose
levels as far as fast. For a diabetic, fresh squeezed orange juice is
medication - fruit juices raise blood sugar about as fast as eating a
spoonful of table sugar. Should we then limit the orange juice as well?

Deb R

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Monica Van Stelton

26 Jan 2010, at 10:58am

This is the second reply that it get somehow erased..bummer, here I go again.

>>>I think that they eating habits are very important specially when they are children because they need to nourish their growing bodies and also because it sets the habits for the rest of their lives ( unless they suddenly realize that it is bad).<<<

Children need to learn balance, not imposed limits. How can you claim to know exactly what a child needs in order to nourish his body? Because I have many years of experience and research and I know that some things are not good for the body. A lot of people have childhoods where they are constantly exposed to something but choose to reject that as an adult. yes, this is tuth, I don't like candies and other sweet things I did when I was a child.

>>>I've seen it once when I went to a buffet, two tables in front of us there was a family, the mom was obese, the father was obese, guess their children...yes, obese. I really felt bad for them and a bit embarrassed for them for being that big and eating at all you can eat type of restaurant. If the daughter would have had parents who care about their bodies ( not for the looks but for the health) I bet she would've never been that unhealthy.<< <

I am curious how you know that a family is obese because they don't care.. There are a ton of things that you do not know about that family. I am obese. Does that mean that I shouldn't ever eat at a buffet? No, it doesn't mean that you can't go to a buffet. And I know I can't make everybody be healthy, as much as I would like, including myself. But it makes me feel sad because is so unhealthy for adults but even worse for children, since they learn and copy behavior. Childhood obesity and heart problem, things that it should never happen!

>>>I think it all starts with modeling healthy eating and behavior. If you do not have ice cream or candy in the house then they can't eat it. If they never saw it they would never know what it is therefore they would not crave it.<<<

Is it healthy to avoid certain foods at all costs? Is avoiding birthday parties because you don't want your kid exposed to cake and ice cream healthy? No, but I wouldn't have it at home.Do you police everything in your house to make sure that your child never sees ice cream or candy? How is that healthy? There won't be the need to hide anything because we don't eat that at home or elsewhere We do only in special occasions like Christmas or birthdays.

>>>I think only when they can understand how sugar, as an example, messes up their body then they could have sugar, because they are making an informed decision and since it is their body they can choose what they want to do.<<<

>>>For example, my child is going to cross the busy road and he is only 10 month old, at that age they don't understand what would happened if they get hit by a car, so I can't let him cross. The same way goes for food, I wouldn't let my child to anything that is not good for him because he doesn't understand why is not good and what happens to the body when he eats it.. Until then I feel responsible for what I offer him and expose him to.<<<

>>>Anyway, this is my input...it may not go well with unschooling but I wouldn't give him anything that I know is not good. IF unschooling is freedom of choice then I can choose not to do something, right?<<<

If you know that something is incompatible with unschooling, why put it out there? Because I am learning about unschooling. As written in the description of the group (A list designed for those new to the philosophy of unschooling. Ask experienced unschoolers all those niggling questions, and find out how unschooling works in real families.If you're familiar with John Holt's work, but unsure of how to begin or what an unschooling day really looks like, this is a place for you to discuss,question, ponder and become deeply familiar with natural learning and how it affects our entire lives. From parenting issues to learning from the whole wide world and beyond, come explore the issues that unschooling families have dealt with in the past and how to get beyond "school-think" to a joyful unschooling lifestyle! ) I am still learning and I really like some of the principles of uschooling and I am still learning about the ones I don't know and don't
agree. Unschooling is about freedom of choice for the CHILD. You can choose to do whatever you want. We all make choices all the time. I make a lot of choices that are not unschooling but I don't come to an unschooling list and try to offer them as an unschooling solution or an unschooling perspective. Solutions are solutions. So if you know you can fix the car by going to the mechanic, you wouldn't go because is not unschooling prespective?
Monica

Connie

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Monica Van Stelton

26 Jan 2010, at 11:12am

This is the second reply that it get somehow erased..bummer, here I go again.

>>>I think that they eating habits are very important specially when they are children because they need to nourish their growing bodies and also because it sets the habits for the rest of their lives ( unless they suddenly realize that it is bad).<<<

>>>I've seen it once when I went to a buffet, two tables in front of us there was a family, the mom was obese, the father was obese, guess their children...yes, obese. I really felt bad for them and a bit embarrassed for them for being that big and eating at all you can eat type of restaurant. If the daughter would have had parents who care about their bodies ( not for the looks but for the health) I bet she would've never been that unhealthy.<< <

I am curious how you know that a family is obese because they don't care... There are a ton of things that you do not know about that family. I am obese. Does that mean that I shouldn't ever eat at a buffet? No, it doesn't mean that you can't go to a buffet. And I know I can't make everybody be healthy, as much as I would like, including myself. But it makes me feel sad because is so unhealthy for adults but even worse for children, since they learn and copy behavior. Childhood obesity and heart problem, things that it should never happen!

>>>I think it all starts with modeling healthy eating and behavior. If you do not have ice cream or candy in the house then they can't eat it. If they never saw it they would never know what it is therefore they would not crave it.<<<

>>>I think only when they can understand how sugar, as an example, messes up their body then they could have sugar, because they are making an informed decision and since it is their body they can choose what they want to do.<<<

I am an adult and still do not fully understand why sugar is so bad and horrible. I have read conflicting information about it. On some level, I know it should probably be moderated but to be told that I can't have sugar unless I fully understand that it is going to mess up my body is a huge burden. If I have to choose between something that is posed as going to mess me up and something that isn't, then there isn't really a choice there. I won't impose it on him, but I won't go to the store to buy it. If he really wants it then he can get it himself. the difference is that is not me the one who is giving him something bad...it was his choice. I can't do anything that I know is bad...he is a baby now it may be different when he is older....but I am not there yet.

>>>For example, my child is going to cross the busy road and he is only 10 month old, at that age they don't understand what would happened if they get hit by a car, so I can't let him cross. The same way goes for food, I wouldn't let my child to anything that is not good for him because he doesn't understand why is not good and what happens to the body when he eats it... Until then I feel responsible for what I offer him and expose him to.<<<

>>>Anyway, this is my input...it may not go well with unschooling but I wouldn't give him anything that I know is not good. IF unschooling is freedom of choice then I can choose not to do something, right?<<<

If you know that something is incompatible with unschooling, why put it out there? Because I am learning about unschooling. As written in the description of the group (A list designed for those new to the philosophy of unschooling. Ask experienced unschoolers all those niggling questions, and find out how unschooling works in real families.If you're familiar with John Holt's work, but unsure of how to begin or what an unschooling day really looks like, this is a place for you to discuss,question, ponder and become deeply familiar with natural learning and how it affects our entire lives. From parenting issues to learning from the whole wide world and beyond, come explore the issues that unschooling families have dealt with in the past and how to get beyond "school-think" to a joyful unschooling lifestyle! ) I am still learning and I really like some of the principles of uschooling and I am still learning about the ones I don't know and
don't agree. Unschooling is about freedom of choice for the CHILD. You can choose to do whatever you want. We all make choices all the time.. I make a lot of choices that are not unschooling but I don't come to an unschooling list and try to offer them as an unschooling solution or an unschooling perspective. Solutions are solutions. So if you know you can fix the car by going to the mechanic, you wouldn't go because is not unschooling prespective?

Monica

Connie

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Monica Van Stelton

26 Jan 2010, at 12:08pm

>>>I've seen it once when I went to a buffet, two tables in front of us there was a family, the mom was obese, the father was obese, guess their children...yes, obese. I really felt bad for them and a bit embarrassed for them for being that big and eating at all you can eat type of restaurant. If the daughter would have had parents who care about their bodies ( not for the looks but for the health) I bet she would've never been that unhealthy.<< <

I am curious how you know that a family is obese because they don't care.. There are a ton of things that you do not know about that family. I am obese. Does that mean that I shouldn't ever eat at a buffet?

Well, I know it is hard to lose weight, I was never "fat" although in my teens I felt like that sometimes. And it was very hard to stop having my cookies and ice cream...Specially because my family even though for the most part ate "healthy" they still didn't didn't model good eating habits...My mom still has breakfast with cake and coffee. It doesn't mean that you should never eat at a buffet but, I think that children learn by modeling and if is that what you model that is what your children are going to learn. It is sad, because it is not healthy for the heart and body, diabetes, heart problems, etc. Please do not take it personally. I don't discriminate against anybody, my best friend in school was a big girl. I don't care and didn't care she was big, small or tall or short, I just felt bad for her health, for the problems she would encounter.

>>>I think it all starts with modeling healthy eating and behavior. If you do not have ice cream or candy in the house then they can't eat it. If they never saw it they would never know what it is therefore they would not crave it.<<<

Is it healthy to avoid certain foods at all costs? Not at all cost, but as long as I can without hurting my son. If we are somewhere and he wants cake well, as much as I would prefer he wouldn't I'd let him but I wouldn't buy cake at home. We could make a healthier version ourselves.Is avoiding birthday parties because you don't want your kid exposed to cake and ice cream healthy?
Do you police everything in your house to make sure that your child never sees ice cream or candy? How is that healthy? Well, I won't have cake or ice cream because we do not eat that. Just for special occasion.

>>>I think only when they can understand how sugar, as an example, messes up their body then they could have sugar, because they are making an informed decision and since it is their body they can choose what they want to do.<<<

I am an adult and still do not fully understand why sugar is so bad and horrible. I have read conflicting information about it. On some level, I know it should probably be moderated but to be told that I can't have sugar unless I fully understand that it is going to mess up my body is a huge burden. If I have to choose between something that is posed as going to mess me up and something that isn't, then there isn't really a choice there. The thing is that I won't impose anything I will just model and buy what I know is good for us. I don't want to be responsible for giving anything I know it is bad. Like the lady I worked for she would give her 2 year old diet coke...when I asked her if she knows that is neurotoxic she said yes and she named other bad things in it..but yet she feed it to her daughter..shame on her.

>>>For example, my child is going to cross the busy road and he is only 10 month old, at that age they don't understand what would happened if they get hit by a car, so I can't let him cross. The same way goes for food, I wouldn't let my child to anything that is not good for him because he doesn't understand why is not good and what happens to the body when he eats it.. Until then I feel responsible for what I offer him and expose him to.<<<

>>>Anyway, this is my input...it may not go well with unschooling but I wouldn't give him anything that I know is not good. IF unschooling is freedom of choice then I can choose not to do something, right?<<<

If you know that something is incompatible with unschooling, why put it out there? Unschooling is about freedom of choice for the CHILD. You can choose to do whatever you want. We all make choices all the time. I make a lot of choices that are not unschooling but I don't come to an unschooling list and try to offer them as an unschooling solution or an unschooling perspective. To answer that is that I am here to learn, as described in the front page of the group description. Solutions are solutions and not all fit to the one single person, sometimes there are other way or solutions for things. And even if I unschool my family still doesn't mean that we all going to agree 100%. And I really like some of the unschooling principles and need to learn more about the ones I don't understand or agree.

Connie

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Jenna Robertson

26 Jan 2010, at 1:28pm

"And I know I can't make everybody be healthy"

You can't make Anybody be healthy. Everyone can and will make their own choices. Children will make their own choices as soon as they are over at a friend's house to play or able to go to the store on their own. You are coming from a perspective of control. You are going to control your child's food choices. Not having it in the house, not buying it for them, those are ways you impose your choices on your child. Unschooling is about letting go of control and exploring life with your child. Your children are then able to learn to trust their bodies, trust themselves and make the choice that is right for them. They are also able to trust their parents to support them as they explore life. That way if they make a choice that doesn't work out the way they expected, they know that mom or dad will be there to help them, not make them feel guilty and bad.

I struggled with this issue. We are vegetarians and I've always focused on "healthy" eating. Right now we have food in the house that I would have previously never purchased. My girls have made hot chocolate (the inexpensive, store brand in a big canister kind) and whipped cream (from the can that you shake and hold upside down) into a food group recently. We had friends who had the whipped cream at their house and my girls loved the idea. Some times they have whipped cream And marshmallows (which are not vegetarian) with their hot chocolate. Some times my youngest has a dish of whipped cream with sprinkles or whipped cream on pancakes. And some times I squirt the whipped cream right into their mouths. Do you know how fun it is to spray whipped cream into the mouth of a happy child? (maybe it's the nitrous in the can ;) In our house food is no longer about control, it's not about good or bad or healthy or unhealthy, it's about fun.
And That is what unschooling is about. Unschooling is about discovering the joy you can experience together as a family every single day.

The links that others have suggested have great value. Take some time to read and expand your understanding of unschooling and food :)

Jenna

"What's the matter with you? All it takes is faith and trust. Oh! And something I forgot. Dust!"......
" Yep, just a little bit of pixie dust. Now, think of the happiest things. It's the same as having wings." - Peter Pan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

26 Jan 2010, at 1:53pm

Exactly Deb Thanks for that. I had gestational diabetes and had ice-cream every day or I my urine had ketosis in the AM but in the morning I could not even drink milk!

Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

________________________________
From: Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 7:14:40 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: food and rudeness

> Sugar messes up people that have diabetes and even those people can

have sugar if careful.

CARBS mess up people with diabetes - whether it's whole grain homemade
bread or a Hershey bar, it's carbs. The difference is that a slice of
whole grain bread digests more slowly so it doesn't raise blood glucose
levels as far as fast. For a diabetic, fresh squeezed orange juice is
medication - fruit juices raise blood sugar about as fast as eating a
spoonful of table sugar. Should we then limit the orange juice as well?

Deb R

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This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.

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Monica Van Stelton

26 Jan 2010, at 3:43pm

Hi Jenna,
I am vegetarian too for a while I was almost vegan, didn't eat milk etc. I don't want to control like a police...but it is very hard for me now to think that I would let my children to have ice cream every day and all of that...The difference may come when he is older and ask for it and I see his happy face afterward. I have a hard time saying no if we go to the store and he is looking a toy...it may be the same with food in the future...who knows.
I am not trying to impose my choices...I know that sugar, high fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated oils, food coloring, etc is bad now how can I let them eat that stuff. I bought some cookies that I used to eat in Argentina when I was a child and it had, besides all that I mention also beef fat...yuck.. They taste delicious but is just like eating a crap cake. If your son is walking on the side walk and sees poo would you let him eat it? Yes I totally want to be a supportive parent like you mention but how can I let my child harm himself if he doesn't even know that is harmful. Yes, eating ice cream is not going to kill you, having it once in a while it won't do as much harm as eating it every day. But it all contributes to ones health and future heart attacks, etc. My mother in law had surgery to get on bypass she ended up with 5! And she still chooses to eat bad...It is her choice she is and older woman and knows what can happen if she continues eating
like that, but a child don't know and rely on the parent to provide and take care of them and they trust that what you offer and the environment offered is safe and healthy.
Thank you for the reply. I will look into what Sandra Dodd says about food and that. She may be the model of unschooling but is she a nutritionist? What qualifies her to talk about nutrition? Please, do not take this personally or get offended I question her...I've seen many of her videos, she sounds reasonable and I like her but doesn't mean that she knows or has the background in nutrition, maybe she does, I will read more about her. Gary Null has over 25 years of experience and did many research about nutrition he has a PHD in nutrition. I will also read what he says about eating junk.
ThanksMonica

--- On Tue, 1/26/10, Jenna Robertson <mamamole@...> wrote:

From: Jenna Robertson <mamamole@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] food and rudeness
To: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 10:28 AM

"And I know I can't make everybody be healthy"

You can't make Anybody be healthy. Everyone can and will make their own choices. Children will make their own choices as soon as they are over at a friend's house to play or able to go to the store on their own.. You are coming from a perspective of control. You are going to control your child's food choices. Not having it in the house, not buying it for them, those are ways you impose your choices on your child. Unschooling is about letting go of control and exploring life with your child. Your children are then able to learn to trust their bodies, trust themselves and make the choice that is right for them. They are also able to trust their parents to support them as they explore life. That way if they make a choice that doesn't work out the way they expected, they know that mom or dad will be there to help them, not make them feel guilty and bad.

I struggled with this issue. We are vegetarians and I've always focused on "healthy" eating. Right now we have food in the house that I would have previously never purchased. My girls have made hot chocolate (the inexpensive, store brand in a big canister kind) and whipped cream (from the can that you shake and hold upside down) into a food group recently. We had friends who had the whipped cream at their house and my girls loved the idea. Some times they have whipped cream And marshmallows (which are not vegetarian) with their hot chocolate. Some times my youngest has a dish of whipped cream with sprinkles or whipped cream on pancakes. And some times I squirt the whipped cream right into their mouths. Do you know how fun it is to spray whipped cream into the mouth of a happy child? (maybe it's the nitrous in the can ;) In our house food is no longer about control, it's not about good or bad or healthy or unhealthy, it's about fun.

And That is what unschooling is about. Unschooling is about discovering the joy you can experience together as a family every single day.

The links that others have suggested have great value. Take some time to read and expand your understanding of unschooling and food :)

Jenna

"What's the matter with you? All it takes is faith and trust. Oh! And something I forgot. Dust!"......

" Yep, just a little bit of pixie dust. Now, think of the happiest things. It's the same as having wings." - Peter Pan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

26 Jan 2010, at 4:11pm

**** Because I have many years of experience and research and I know that some things are not good for the body. ****

I have many years of experience with math, music, walking, cooking but the trusting, respectful (unschooling) approach is to support my daughter's explorations at her pace based on her interest.

Not because we're slaves to the philosophy but because children learn best when they're free to explore and learn when they're ready. If it worked for experts to impose knowledge they thought was best on kids, then schools would turn out droves of kids eager and ready for college. Instead all the pressure produces far more kids resentful of being told what to do and unable to decide where they should go.

Parents are not without influence! It's up to parents to provide the foundation of what they believe is healthy food because most kids don't want to create meal plans each week. To be respectful, add in what kids (and partners) request and like. When kids ask why mom's making a certain choice, mom can share her understanding in an informational way but leaving out pressure to make the same choice.

Think about this: Your husband has discovered religion and is worried about your soul. The way he goes about saving your soul is by limiting what you have access to and providing only what he approves. He does it as gently as he can, but there's still clearly right choices (his) and wrong choices (anything not his). Would you feel drawn to his ideas? Would you feel like he respected and trusted you? Would you feel like spending time with him?

Now if he discovered religion and, instead, lived it for himself, answered questions when you asked, invited you along when he attended church but accepted no, shared the parts he thought you might like, would you have good feelings about his ideas (even if you didn't embrace them), good feelings about him, and about his respect for you?

If you continue to hold a tight rein on what your child can and can't eat, it will feel like the first scenario to him. No matter how certain you are of your ideas being true, it's far more likely to drive him away and shut his ears to what you so very much want to get into him.

**** And I know I can't make everybody be healthy, as much as I would like, including myself. But it makes me feel sad ****

Letting go of the need to change who people are, letting go of sadness over others' choices will help your inner peace. And that's healthier than any food.

 **** No, but I wouldn't have it at home. ****

If your husband thought science fiction was bad for people and you loved it, would it feel respectful for him to ban it from the house if you had no power to buy it on your own? Would it feel like he loved you? Or would it feel like he loved his opinion more than you?

**** There won't be the need to hide anything because we don't eat that at home or elsewhere We do only in special occasions like Christmas or birthdays. ****

I can guarantee that every single person on this list knows how to control their children's eating. They don't come here for more. They come here for something different. Way's to control kids is everywhere on the internet and in the library. What they need, because the information isn't readily available, are examples of how to help kids explore food so kids can find what they love and like and hate and want to avoid.

**** I won't impose it on him, but I won't go to the store to buy it. ****

If he doesn't have the power to get in the car and the money to buy what he wants, then how is it not imposed?

******** If you know that something is incompatible with unschooling, why put it out there? ****
**** Because I am learning about unschooling. ****

The description you quoted says "Ask ... discuss,question, ponder"

I guessing if you wanted to learn how to play the guitar you wouldn't spend the whole hour telling the instructor how you play. If you disagreed with his approach it would be polite to find someone else rather than wasting your and his time.

Instructor isn't a good analogy but there are people with grown children here who have been putting the philosophy into practice and discussing it for years that do have an understanding they can pass on. It helps, though, to ask questions, do lots of reading, thinking and above all trying out what's discussed.

**** Solutions are solutions. So if you know you can fix the car by going to the mechanic, you wouldn't go because is not unschooling prespective? ****

By that reasoning, spanking is a solution that should be offered here. And sending them to school,

Solutions within the sphere of caring for children are a reflection of a parenting philosophy. If the foundation of a philosophy is to respect and trust children, then a solution that's neither goes against the philosophy.

Schuyler

26 Jan 2010, at 4:51pm

The interesting thing is that according to studies controlling and limiting food is more likely to lead to obesity than letting children regulate their own food intake. They stop trusting the feeling of being full. They start waiting for someone else to tell them when they are hungry and when they are full. And they move toward seeing some food as special, as magical, because it's been relegated to dessert or to special occassion food. That food becomes so important to have, so emotionally laden, that they just can't seem to stop eating it. So, even within the population at large, the not-just-unschooling population, food controls have a negative effect.

There are lots of good stories on the unschooling lists about children discovering and forging their own relationships with foods they have problems with, like dairy. Children, given information and support, can make a conscious choice to eat something that may not make them feel good because the pleasure of eating it is enough in that moment. They can also choose not to have the desired food item to avoid whatever happens next. I do it. I know if I eat too much I'm more likely to get indigestion, but sometimes the food is too good to have a small portion, so I choose. I like that Simon and Linnaea choose too. And I watch them not only choose what to eat with an awareness of their own hunger that amazes me (Simon had a craving for gingerbread men, something we hadn't had for ages, years maybe, because it was a food he had experienced before) and I watch them turn down things that I wouldn't have predicted. They couldn't do that if I framed their choices,
if I limited their experiences to those I thought as acceptable. As it is their limitations are based on money and availability instead of on my caprice and fear. I way prefer that.

Schuyler

Hello,
I think that they eating habits are very important specially when they are children because they need to nourish their growing bodies and also because it sets the habits for the rest of their lives ( unless they suddenly realize that it is bad). I've seen it once when I went to a buffet, two tables in front of us there was a family, the mom was obese, the father was obese, guess their children...yes, obese. I really felt bad for them and a bit embarrassed for them for being that big and eating at all you can eat type of restaurant. If the daughter would have had parents who care about their bodies ( not for the looks but for the health) I bet she would've never been that unhealthy.
I think it all starts with modeling healthy eating and behavior. If you do not have ice cream or candy in the house then they can't eat it. If they never saw it they would never know what it is therefore they would not crave it. I think only when they can understand how sugar, as an example, messes up their body then they could have sugar, because they are making an informed decision and since it is their body they can choose what they want to do. For example, my child is going to cross the busy road and he is only 10 month old, at that age they don't understand what would happened if they get hit by a car, so I can't let him cross. The same way goes for food, I wouldn't let my child to anything that is not good for him because he doesn't understand why is not good and what happens to the body when he eats it. Until then I feel responsible for what I offer him and expose him to.
Anyway, this is my input...it may not go well with unschooling but I wouldn't give him anything that I know is not good. IF unschooling is freedom of choice then I can choose not to do something, right?
Monica

--- On Mon, 1/25/10, otherstar <otherstar@...> wrote:

From: otherstar <otherstar@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] food and rudeness
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, January 25, 2010, 8:34 PM

>>>You might also look at age and development and how that affects your view of your son's behavior. If you began unschooling several years ago and he's now almost 6, then he was initially at an age where some children are naturally helpful because what grownups do is new and interesting. By the time you are 6 that's not so exciting anymore and you want to explore new things. Let go of your expectation that he will help. Find joy in the things that he is interested in exploring now and share that with him. You seem to have gotten to a rather negative place in your thinking about him,"now he is often mean, demanding,and seems to think less of others' feelings." Try and focus on the things you like about him, that you enjoy about him, that can work wonders.<<<

I just wanted to highlight this. I think it is pretty normal for a six year old to be rude and push boundaries. Really, it is normal for all kids to do this. Saying that a 6 year old is mean, demanding, and thinks less of others feelings is kind of harsh. Even if it is true, it comes across very negatively. When my 5 year old gets like this, I try to surprise her with something that she isn't expecting. I find that it is easy for me to get in ruts in my relationship with my kids. When I am in a rut, all of their negative traits are magnified in my mind. When I find myself thinking that way, I try to find one thing that I can do to change the dynamic. It may be making it a point to find something positive. It may be doing something special. It may be buying them something that they have been wanting. The other day I made it a point to take my five year old out with me by herself.

I also had the thought that maybe the six year old is rude and grumpy because he really is hungry. When I don't have food that my kids like around the house, they don't eat or will eat something they don't care for and will do it begrudgingly. I can tell that they are still hungry because they are still grumpy. When I see them doing that, we make a trip to the grocery store together and let them pick out whatever they want to eat. If they pick out ice cream and want to eat nothing but ice cream for the day, that is fine. Ice cream has milk and other trace nutrients. : -) If she isn't eating like I think I she should, I will whip up her favorite food even if it is a chocolate milk shake. What kids eat for one day or even one week doesn't matter. What matters is how they eat over time. My 8 year old used to want to eat chocolate and candy all the time. Now that she is older she will turn down sweets in favor of other stuff. My 5 year old is still in the
sweets phase. Knowing that her big sister went through a period of a couple years where it seemed like all she ate was "junk" is very comforting.

Connie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

________________________________

From: Monica Van Stelton <tatyland_usa@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 26 January, 2010 5:39:41
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] food and rudeness

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

26 Jan 2010, at 4:58pm

Sorry, meant to trim that post. Also forgot, I wanted to pull this out:

"IF unschooling is freedom of choice then I can choose not to do something, right?"

You can choose not to do something anytime you want. That doesn't make it unschooling. If I choose not to homeschool my kids, I made a choice freely, but I'm definitely not unschooling. Unschooling is not freedom of choice. Freedom of choice is a part of unschooling but it isn't the whole of unschooling. And, while the parents comfort is important, it is much more helpful if you can come up with ways to embrace your children's choices than working to get them to confine themselves to yours.

Schuyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

26 Jan 2010, at 6:10pm

On Jan 26, 2010, at 3:43 PM, Monica Van Stelton wrote:

> it is very hard for me now to think that I would let my children
> to have ice cream every day and all of that..

It helps to have real kids to talk about rather than made up kids.
The made up kids can act in all sorts of wild ways that sounds
plausible, but it's more useful to discuss real kids. Made up kids
don't have reasons for what they do. Real kids do.

On days we had ice cream in the freezer, my daughter *could* have
eaten it for breakfast, lunch and dinner. But she didn't.

> I have a hard time saying no if we go to the store and he is
> looking a toy...

Sometimes kids just want to hold a toy while they're in the store.

> I am not trying to impose my choices...

I think you're probably trying to get him to eat the way you think is
best. But you *are* imposing your choices. Intent doesn't matter.
What matters to the child is what the actions feel like and say to
him. You can explain all you want that your intent isn't to control
or impose, but if it feels like control, it's the same as if you are
controlling.

> I know that sugar, high fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated oils,
> food coloring, etc is bad

Bad as in will kill you within the hour?

> I bought some cookies that I used to eat in Argentina when I was a
> child and it had, besides all that I mention also beef fat...yuck..
> They taste delicious but is just like eating a crap cake.

How many of those cookies did you have as a kid? I assume you're
still alive.

How about this scenario: You control your son's eating until he
leaves home and then he goes wild gorging on all the forbidden foods
and not only does he like them, he feels guilty, but continues anyway
because his memories of healthy food are wrapped up in memories of
being controlled.

Or you raise your son in an atmosphere of healthy eating (by your
standards) with your understandings swirling around in the air. They
make him feel good about the food you enjoy providing. But because
you want him to be happy, he also feels good about exploring other
foods. When he leaves home he may continue to eat as you provided
because he has warm memories of it. Or he might eat more widely. But
I think it would be unlikely he'd totally reject what you raised him
with because it reminds him of a warm loving home.

If you control his diet for 18 years and he spends the next 50
avoiding healthy food will that be better than if he eats fairly
healthy (because of meals and what you bring into the home) with some
other stuff he's explored thrown in, and then for the rest of his
life he continues like that?

Which of those two is the most healthy life?

I know you *want* the scenario to be you provide the right food and
right information about food and he continues that for the rest of
his life. That's very very unlikely. If control worked, we'd all be
perfect parents and there would be no need for parenting books!
*Everyone* is practically born knowing how to impose their will on
someone else to get their way. Two year olds do it! Humans as a
general rule don't like to learn by being told what's right and
wrong. Humans as a general rule like to try things out and find
what's best for them.

If you want your scenario to happen, you're fighting against human
nature and not only likely to be disappointed but will damage your
relationship with him.

> If your son is walking on the side walk and sees poo would you let
> him eat it?

He trusts that you won't let him eat poop.

It won't help you think clearer if you're casting sugar into the same
box as poop. Tens of millions of people all over the world are eating
sugar. Many many of them are living to old age. There are very few
people eating poop. It won't help your relationship with your son to
see what he's eating and enjoying as poop.

> having it once in a while it won't do as much harm as eating it
> every day.

Yikes, yikes, yikes.

After eating ice cream for several days in a row I'm tired of it.
*That's* what lack of limits allows people to feel. Limits cause
scarcity and a need to get as much as one can before it disappears
again.

This is about TV, but it applies to anything parents want to limit:
http://www.sandradodd.com/t/economics

> But it all contributes to ones health and future heart attacks, etc.

I think it's healthier to eat healthier than to try to do everything
"perfectly."

A child raised with nothing but pork rinds and Kentucky Fried chicken
is probably not going to be as healthy as a child whose mother
provides healthful food but allows her child to explore.

But is a child whose mother provides healthful food but allows her
child to explore going to be orders of magnitude less healthy than a
child who is only allowed to eat a narrow range of healthy foods by a
mother who fears he might eat ice cream everyday?

I think what you're doing is taking something that might be bad for
people to base their diets around -- though it depends lots on body
chemistry -- and deciding that even a normal amount is bad.

Extremism will interfere in building a relationship with your son.
There will be times, many times, when the choice comes between what
he wants and what you want for him. Extremism will cause you to
choose your ideals over him. And that's not good for any relationship.

> rely on the parent to provide and take care of them and they trust
> that what you offer and the environment offered is safe and healthy.

When safe and healthy move into the realms of "because mom's done a
lot of reading and that's what the experts say" kids begin to
question it. As your son gets older he will see lots and lots of kids
eating the things you say are bad. If he's a compassionate kid, he'll
be afraid for them. (Fear is very unhealthy emotion.) If he silently
wishes he could have what they have (but keeps quiet because he
doesn't want to hurt you) he will be filled with envy and possibly
anger. (More unhealthy emotions.) If he wonders why they're running
around looking healthy and happy when you say the food is bad, he's
going to wonder if maybe you don't know what you're talking about.

> She may be the model of unschooling but is she a nutritionist? What
> qualifies her to talk about nutrition?

She has discussed unschooling and building relationships with kids
for 17+ years. She has 3 kids: 18, 22 and 23 (I think). They're great
kids. They're honest and thoughtful and really like their parents.
(I've met her whole family several times over the years.) How many
conventional parents can say that?

If you fill your son up with healthy food and he's yelling at you
because you won't let him have a Coke, would you consider that better?

You're trusting -- without actual experience, and with some reports
to the contrary -- that if you control his food that he'll be healthy
and he'll love you for it because to you it's a loving act.

But control can never feel loving. It feels like someone's agenda is
more important than the person it's being imposed on. It's not
guaranteed that he'll fight against you but you're setting up the
environment to make that more likely to happen.

Unschooling is about building relationships and then finding ways to
fit the rest of life in. Healthy eating (and safety and so on) are
not tossed out. They're just secondary to the relationship.

> Gary Null has over 25 years of experience and did many research
> about nutrition he has a PHD in nutrition. I will also read what he
> says about eating junk.

Does Gary Null have teens that love him? Does he have teens he's
proud of and who are proud of him?

I think someone who has 3 teens that have great relationships with
their parents has more credibility in helping others achieve great
relationships than a nutritionist (who may not have kids).

(And Sandra isn't the only one with grown kids who've been radically
unschooled for most of their lives. I have 1. Pam Sorooshian has 3
also. Ren has at least a 20 yo and a few approaching and Kelly has 2
(though the youngest might still be mid teens). If you haven't met
any of us and our kids, you should! I'd pit our kids on politeness
and general all around coolness against Gary Null's any day ;-))

If your goal is nutrition you *will* have to compromise on
relationship. People can't have two goals. Sometimes one will trump
the other. If you switch back and forth, neither goal will flourish
and you'll seem to your son like you don't know what you're doing.

The choice is heathily-fed teen or teen that you have a great
relationship with. Which is more important? Healthily-fed teen
*doesn't* mean you're guaranteed a bad relationship but it means if
you're controlling what he eats, you're on a path that has a good
chance of ending up doing bad things to your relationship.

A great relationship doesn't mean unhealthy. If you give him freedom
to explore, it's unlikely he'll choose exactly as you would for him,
but, if you allow him the freedom to choose, and make the choices you
provide warm and friendly and free of guilt, he's likely to be far
far far healthier than a kid who subsists on fried chicken. He might
even be healthier over all -- because emotions *do* play a huge
factor in health -- than the heathily-fed teen who is fighting
against your control.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Johnston

26 Jan 2010, at 6:46pm

Just a little something about ice cream....While we were in florence and venice we mapped our day trips according to gelato shops :-). Most days we all ate at least 2-3 gelatos. So much good came out of that...we saw every inch of the cities and it was such an adventure. Plus we tried all the different gelatos and new all the italian names for them. So many happy moments discussing and eating icecream! We came back to the states and did the same here. :-) I think the most telling is the fact that sometimes only a bite is eaten because they aren't worried about it's scarcity.

All my best--Kelli
Sent from my iFriend

On Jan 26, 2010, at 3:43 PM, Monica Van Stelton wrote:

> it is very hard for me now to think that I would let my children
> to have ice cream every day and all of that..

Monica Van Stelton

26 Jan 2010, at 7:22pm

Joyce,
You are right. Relationships are VERY important and my child's happiness is more important than having an unhealthy food. I was raised in a way like unschoolers, I chose what I wanted to eat, I could eat ice cream whenever I wanted to, and ate cookies everyday. not only I am still alive :-) that I chose not to eat (that often) any of those.
My son is a baby and I can choose what to offer him because not only he can't tell me that he doesn't ask for other things. As you say once they get older and start seeing how other people eat they may want to explore it too. And I know it will be different then because they can ask for it and wants it. For now, he like what I give him and I will keep it as healthy as can be.
THANK you for kindly letting me see it. I guess I don't have experience with older children yet. Even less with unschooling.
When I fist looked into unschooling it was about education not parenting, and I really like and I totally believe that children and humans learn best when they have the willing to do so, when is self chosen and they are ready.. It took me 28 years to finally like and understand math, in college I got straight A's. I did it because I was there for myself, I wanted to be there and I was ready to take in the information. I will follow my child's interest and foster his curiosity and I will let him explore because I also believe children learn better by doing things and exploring and not by being lectured with no exploration. Parenting the unschooling way is something I have to learn about and try to understand it better. I know I had brought conventional parenting thinking to this group but if I was conventional 100% I would send my child to school and I am not, unless he wants to. So please, bear with me, I am really trying to leave my conventional
thinking and to open to better ways to parenting. (not that easy in some aspects).
Thanks again
Monica

--- On Tue, 1/26/10, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:

From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] food and rudeness
To: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 3:10 PM

On Jan 26, 2010, at 3:43 PM, Monica Van Stelton wrote:

> it is very hard for me now to think that I would let my children

> to have ice cream every day and all of that..

It helps to have real kids to talk about rather than made up kids.

The made up kids can act in all sorts of wild ways that sounds

plausible, but it's more useful to discuss real kids. Made up kids

don't have reasons for what they do. Real kids do.

On days we had ice cream in the freezer, my daughter *could* have

eaten it for breakfast, lunch and dinner. But she didn't.

> I have a hard time saying no if we go to the store and he is

> looking a toy...

Sometimes kids just want to hold a toy while they're in the store.

> I am not trying to impose my choices...

I think you're probably trying to get him to eat the way you think is

best. But you *are* imposing your choices. Intent doesn't matter.

What matters to the child is what the actions feel like and say to

him. You can explain all you want that your intent isn't to control

or impose, but if it feels like control, it's the same as if you are

controlling.

> I know that sugar, high fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated oils,

> food coloring, etc is bad

Bad as in will kill you within the hour?

> I bought some cookies that I used to eat in Argentina when I was a

> child and it had, besides all that I mention also beef fat...yuck..

> They taste delicious but is just like eating a crap cake.

How many of those cookies did you have as a kid? I assume you're

still alive.

How about this scenario: You control your son's eating until he

leaves home and then he goes wild gorging on all the forbidden foods

and not only does he like them, he feels guilty, but continues anyway

because his memories of healthy food are wrapped up in memories of

being controlled.

Or you raise your son in an atmosphere of healthy eating (by your

standards) with your understandings swirling around in the air. They

make him feel good about the food you enjoy providing. But because

you want him to be happy, he also feels good about exploring other

foods. When he leaves home he may continue to eat as you provided

because he has warm memories of it. Or he might eat more widely. But

I think it would be unlikely he'd totally reject what you raised him

with because it reminds him of a warm loving home.

If you control his diet for 18 years and he spends the next 50

avoiding healthy food will that be better than if he eats fairly

healthy (because of meals and what you bring into the home) with some

other stuff he's explored thrown in, and then for the rest of his

life he continues like that?

Which of those two is the most healthy life?

I know you *want* the scenario to be you provide the right food and

right information about food and he continues that for the rest of

his life. That's very very unlikely. If control worked, we'd all be

perfect parents and there would be no need for parenting books!

*Everyone* is practically born knowing how to impose their will on

someone else to get their way. Two year olds do it! Humans as a

general rule don't like to learn by being told what's right and

wrong. Humans as a general rule like to try things out and find

what's best for them.

If you want your scenario to happen, you're fighting against human

nature and not only likely to be disappointed but will damage your

relationship with him.

> If your son is walking on the side walk and sees poo would you let

> him eat it?

He trusts that you won't let him eat poop.

It won't help you think clearer if you're casting sugar into the same

box as poop. Tens of millions of people all over the world are eating

sugar. Many many of them are living to old age. There are very few

people eating poop. It won't help your relationship with your son to

see what he's eating and enjoying as poop.

> having it once in a while it won't do as much harm as eating it

> every day.

Yikes, yikes, yikes.

After eating ice cream for several days in a row I'm tired of it.

*That's* what lack of limits allows people to feel. Limits cause

scarcity and a need to get as much as one can before it disappears

again.

This is about TV, but it applies to anything parents want to limit:

http://www.sandrado dd.com/t/ economics

> But it all contributes to ones health and future heart attacks, etc.

I think it's healthier to eat healthier than to try to do everything

"perfectly."

A child raised with nothing but pork rinds and Kentucky Fried chicken

is probably not going to be as healthy as a child whose mother

provides healthful food but allows her child to explore.

But is a child whose mother provides healthful food but allows her

child to explore going to be orders of magnitude less healthy than a

child who is only allowed to eat a narrow range of healthy foods by a

mother who fears he might eat ice cream everyday?

I think what you're doing is taking something that might be bad for

people to base their diets around -- though it depends lots on body

chemistry -- and deciding that even a normal amount is bad.

Extremism will interfere in building a relationship with your son.

There will be times, many times, when the choice comes between what

he wants and what you want for him. Extremism will cause you to

choose your ideals over him. And that's not good for any relationship.

> rely on the parent to provide and take care of them and they trust

> that what you offer and the environment offered is safe and healthy.

When safe and healthy move into the realms of "because mom's done a

lot of reading and that's what the experts say" kids begin to

question it. As your son gets older he will see lots and lots of kids

eating the things you say are bad. If he's a compassionate kid, he'll

be afraid for them. (Fear is very unhealthy emotion.) If he silently

wishes he could have what they have (but keeps quiet because he

doesn't want to hurt you) he will be filled with envy and possibly

anger. (More unhealthy emotions.) If he wonders why they're running

around looking healthy and happy when you say the food is bad, he's

going to wonder if maybe you don't know what you're talking about.

> She may be the model of unschooling but is she a nutritionist? What

> qualifies her to talk about nutrition?

She has discussed unschooling and building relationships with kids

for 17+ years. She has 3 kids: 18, 22 and 23 (I think). They're great

kids. They're honest and thoughtful and really like their parents.

(I've met her whole family several times over the years.) How many

conventional parents can say that?

If you fill your son up with healthy food and he's yelling at you

because you won't let him have a Coke, would you consider that better?

You're trusting -- without actual experience, and with some reports

to the contrary -- that if you control his food that he'll be healthy

and he'll love you for it because to you it's a loving act.

But control can never feel loving. It feels like someone's agenda is

more important than the person it's being imposed on. It's not

guaranteed that he'll fight against you but you're setting up the

environment to make that more likely to happen.

Unschooling is about building relationships and then finding ways to

fit the rest of life in. Healthy eating (and safety and so on) are

not tossed out. They're just secondary to the relationship.

> Gary Null has over 25 years of experience and did many research

> about nutrition he has a PHD in nutrition. I will also read what he

> says about eating junk.

Does Gary Null have teens that love him? Does he have teens he's

proud of and who are proud of him?

I think someone who has 3 teens that have great relationships with

their parents has more credibility in helping others achieve great

relationships than a nutritionist (who may not have kids).

(And Sandra isn't the only one with grown kids who've been radically

unschooled for most of their lives. I have 1. Pam Sorooshian has 3

also. Ren has at least a 20 yo and a few approaching and Kelly has 2

(though the youngest might still be mid teens). If you haven't met

any of us and our kids, you should! I'd pit our kids on politeness

and general all around coolness against Gary Null's any day ;-))

If your goal is nutrition you *will* have to compromise on

relationship. People can't have two goals. Sometimes one will trump

the other. If you switch back and forth, neither goal will flourish

and you'll seem to your son like you don't know what you're doing.

The choice is heathily-fed teen or teen that you have a great

relationship with. Which is more important? Healthily-fed teen

*doesn't* mean you're guaranteed a bad relationship but it means if

you're controlling what he eats, you're on a path that has a good

chance of ending up doing bad things to your relationship.

A great relationship doesn't mean unhealthy. If you give him freedom

to explore, it's unlikely he'll choose exactly as you would for him,

but, if you allow him the freedom to choose, and make the choices you

provide warm and friendly and free of guilt, he's likely to be far

far far healthier than a kid who subsists on fried chicken. He might

even be healthier over all -- because emotions *do* play a huge

factor in health -- than the heathily-fed teen who is fighting

against your control.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Monica Van Stelton

26 Jan 2010, at 7:27pm

Hello,
Since I am on the path to learn more about unschooling I'd like to ask you about vaccinations. I promise to not post my opinion. I'd just like to know if you vaccinate or not and if you think is good to do it and why.
Thank you,
Monica

--- On Tue, 1/26/10, Monica Van Stelton <tatyland_usa@...> wrote:

From: Monica Van Stelton <tatyland_usa@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] food and rudeness. Joyce
To: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 4:22 PM

Joyce,

You are right. Relationships are VERY important and my child's happiness is more important than having an unhealthy food. I was raised in a way like unschoolers, I chose what I wanted to eat, I could eat ice cream whenever I wanted to, and ate cookies everyday. not only I am still alive :-) that I chose not to eat (that often) any of those.

My son is a baby and I can choose what to offer him because not only he can't tell me that he doesn't ask for other things. As you say once they get older and start seeing how other people eat they may want to explore it too. And I know it will be different then because they can ask for it and wants it. For now, he like what I give him and I will keep it as healthy as can be.

THANK you for kindly letting me see it. I guess I don't have experience with older children yet. Even less with unschooling.

When I fist looked into unschooling it was about education not parenting, and I really like and I totally believe that children and humans learn best when they have the willing to do so, when is self chosen and they are ready.. It took me 28 years to finally like and understand math, in college I got straight A's. I did it because I was there for myself, I wanted to be there and I was ready to take in the information. I will follow my child's interest and foster his curiosity and I will let him explore because I also believe children learn better by doing things and exploring and not by being lectured with no exploration. Parenting the unschooling way is something I have to learn about and try to understand it better. I know I had brought conventional parenting thinking to this group but if I was conventional 100% I would send my child to school and I am not, unless he wants to. So please, bear with me, I am really trying to leave my conventional

thinking and to open to better ways to parenting. (not that easy in some aspects).

Thanks again

Monica

--- On Tue, 1/26/10, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@verizon. net> wrote:

From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@verizon. net>

Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] food and rudeness

To: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com

Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 3:10 PM

On Jan 26, 2010, at 3:43 PM, Monica Van Stelton wrote:

> it is very hard for me now to think that I would let my children

> to have ice cream every day and all of that..

It helps to have real kids to talk about rather than made up kids.

The made up kids can act in all sorts of wild ways that sounds

plausible, but it's more useful to discuss real kids. Made up kids

don't have reasons for what they do. Real kids do.

On days we had ice cream in the freezer, my daughter *could* have

eaten it for breakfast, lunch and dinner. But she didn't.

> I have a hard time saying no if we go to the store and he is

> looking a toy...

Sometimes kids just want to hold a toy while they're in the store.

> I am not trying to impose my choices...

I think you're probably trying to get him to eat the way you think is

best. But you *are* imposing your choices. Intent doesn't matter.

What matters to the child is what the actions feel like and say to

him. You can explain all you want that your intent isn't to control

or impose, but if it feels like control, it's the same as if you are

controlling.

> I know that sugar, high fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated oils,

> food coloring, etc is bad

Bad as in will kill you within the hour?

> I bought some cookies that I used to eat in Argentina when I was a

> child and it had, besides all that I mention also beef fat...yuck..

> They taste delicious but is just like eating a crap cake.

How many of those cookies did you have as a kid? I assume you're

still alive.

How about this scenario: You control your son's eating until he

leaves home and then he goes wild gorging on all the forbidden foods

and not only does he like them, he feels guilty, but continues anyway

because his memories of healthy food are wrapped up in memories of

being controlled.

Or you raise your son in an atmosphere of healthy eating (by your

standards) with your understandings swirling around in the air. They

make him feel good about the food you enjoy providing. But because

you want him to be happy, he also feels good about exploring other

foods. When he leaves home he may continue to eat as you provided

because he has warm memories of it. Or he might eat more widely. But

I think it would be unlikely he'd totally reject what you raised him

with because it reminds him of a warm loving home.

If you control his diet for 18 years and he spends the next 50

avoiding healthy food will that be better than if he eats fairly

healthy (because of meals and what you bring into the home) with some

other stuff he's explored thrown in, and then for the rest of his

life he continues like that?

Which of those two is the most healthy life?

I know you *want* the scenario to be you provide the right food and

right information about food and he continues that for the rest of

his life. That's very very unlikely. If control worked, we'd all be

perfect parents and there would be no need for parenting books!

*Everyone* is practically born knowing how to impose their will on

someone else to get their way. Two year olds do it! Humans as a

general rule don't like to learn by being told what's right and

wrong. Humans as a general rule like to try things out and find

what's best for them.

If you want your scenario to happen, you're fighting against human

nature and not only likely to be disappointed but will damage your

relationship with him.

> If your son is walking on the side walk and sees poo would you let

> him eat it?

He trusts that you won't let him eat poop.

It won't help you think clearer if you're casting sugar into the same

box as poop. Tens of millions of people all over the world are eating

sugar. Many many of them are living to old age. There are very few

people eating poop. It won't help your relationship with your son to

see what he's eating and enjoying as poop.

> having it once in a while it won't do as much harm as eating it

> every day.

Yikes, yikes, yikes.

After eating ice cream for several days in a row I'm tired of it.

*That's* what lack of limits allows people to feel. Limits cause

scarcity and a need to get as much as one can before it disappears

again.

This is about TV, but it applies to anything parents want to limit:

http://www.sandrado dd.com/t/ economics

> But it all contributes to ones health and future heart attacks, etc.

I think it's healthier to eat healthier than to try to do everything

"perfectly."

A child raised with nothing but pork rinds and Kentucky Fried chicken

is probably not going to be as healthy as a child whose mother

provides healthful food but allows her child to explore.

But is a child whose mother provides healthful food but allows her

child to explore going to be orders of magnitude less healthy than a

child who is only allowed to eat a narrow range of healthy foods by a

mother who fears he might eat ice cream everyday?

I think what you're doing is taking something that might be bad for

people to base their diets around -- though it depends lots on body

chemistry -- and deciding that even a normal amount is bad.

Extremism will interfere in building a relationship with your son.

There will be times, many times, when the choice comes between what

he wants and what you want for him. Extremism will cause you to

choose your ideals over him. And that's not good for any relationship.

> rely on the parent to provide and take care of them and they trust

> that what you offer and the environment offered is safe and healthy.

When safe and healthy move into the realms of "because mom's done a

lot of reading and that's what the experts say" kids begin to

question it. As your son gets older he will see lots and lots of kids

eating the things you say are bad. If he's a compassionate kid, he'll

be afraid for them. (Fear is very unhealthy emotion.) If he silently

wishes he could have what they have (but keeps quiet because he

doesn't want to hurt you) he will be filled with envy and possibly

anger. (More unhealthy emotions.) If he wonders why they're running

around looking healthy and happy when you say the food is bad, he's

going to wonder if maybe you don't know what you're talking about.

> She may be the model of unschooling but is she a nutritionist? What

> qualifies her to talk about nutrition?

She has discussed unschooling and building relationships with kids

for 17+ years. She has 3 kids: 18, 22 and 23 (I think). They're great

kids. They're honest and thoughtful and really like their parents.

(I've met her whole family several times over the years.) How many

conventional parents can say that?

If you fill your son up with healthy food and he's yelling at you

because you won't let him have a Coke, would you consider that better?

You're trusting -- without actual experience, and with some reports

to the contrary -- that if you control his food that he'll be healthy

and he'll love you for it because to you it's a loving act.

But control can never feel loving. It feels like someone's agenda is

more important than the person it's being imposed on. It's not

guaranteed that he'll fight against you but you're setting up the

environment to make that more likely to happen.

Unschooling is about building relationships and then finding ways to

fit the rest of life in. Healthy eating (and safety and so on) are

not tossed out. They're just secondary to the relationship.

> Gary Null has over 25 years of experience and did many research

> about nutrition he has a PHD in nutrition. I will also read what he

> says about eating junk.

Does Gary Null have teens that love him? Does he have teens he's

proud of and who are proud of him?

I think someone who has 3 teens that have great relationships with

their parents has more credibility in helping others achieve great

relationships than a nutritionist (who may not have kids).

(And Sandra isn't the only one with grown kids who've been radically

unschooled for most of their lives. I have 1. Pam Sorooshian has 3

also. Ren has at least a 20 yo and a few approaching and Kelly has 2

(though the youngest might still be mid teens). If you haven't met

any of us and our kids, you should! I'd pit our kids on politeness

and general all around coolness against Gary Null's any day ;-))

If your goal is nutrition you *will* have to compromise on

relationship. People can't have two goals. Sometimes one will trump

the other. If you switch back and forth, neither goal will flourish

and you'll seem to your son like you don't know what you're doing.

The choice is heathily-fed teen or teen that you have a great

relationship with. Which is more important? Healthily-fed teen

*doesn't* mean you're guaranteed a bad relationship but it means if

you're controlling what he eats, you're on a path that has a good

chance of ending up doing bad things to your relationship.

A great relationship doesn't mean unhealthy. If you give him freedom

to explore, it's unlikely he'll choose exactly as you would for him,

but, if you allow him the freedom to choose, and make the choices you

provide warm and friendly and free of guilt, he's likely to be far

far far healthier than a kid who subsists on fried chicken. He might

even be healthier over all -- because emotions *do* play a huge

factor in health -- than the heathily-fed teen who is fighting

against your control.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenna Robertson

26 Jan 2010, at 7:41pm

Chrissy,

Your thread got a bit sidetracked. Did you find some clarity in the responses to your original post or do you have some follow up questions? (no need to respond to that question unless you want more input.)

:)
Jenna

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jordan .....

26 Jan 2010, at 8:00pm

on this topic my family is truly radical... in addition to research that you must do yourself to make a very informed decision, i ioffer the follwing thoughts... we have a 7.5 yr old boy who has NEVER been ill... never had a fever, and rarely catches anything that is passing around from other kids... granted, he eats an excellent diet and was nursed until age 3.5... but i am absolutely sure that not vaccinating plays a very important role... i was not willing to risk death or damage caused by vaccination... but it remains a difficult choice that i re-evaluate often... i think informed parents make good decisions no matter what they choose to do... i think most children build a better immune system when their boidies are able to challenge sickness... also the vaccinated kids in our circle seem to get sick so regularly... but do some research... peace, love, and joy! jordan ---------- Sent from AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email

-----Original Message-----
From: Monica Van Stelton
Sent: 1/27/2010 12:27:25 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] vaccinations question.

Hello,
Since I am on the path to learn more about unschooling I'd like to ask you about vaccinations. I promise to not post my opinion. I'd just like to know if you vaccinate or not and if you think is good to do it and why.
Thank you,
Monica

--- On Tue, 1/26/10, Monica Van Stelton <tatyland_usa@...<mailto:tatyland_usa%40yahoo.com>> wrote:

From: Monica Van Stelton <tatyland_usa@...<mailto:tatyland_usa%40yahoo.com>>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] food and rudeness. Joyce
To: [email protected]<mailto:unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 4:22 PM

��

Joyce,

You are right. Relationships are VERY important and my child's happiness is more important than having an unhealthy food. I was raised in a way like unschoolers, I chose what I wanted to eat, I could eat ice cream whenever I wanted to, and ate cookies everyday. not only I am still alive :-) that I chose not to eat (that often) any of those.��

My son is a baby and I can choose what to offer him because not only he can't tell me that he doesn't ask for other things. As you say once they get older and start seeing how other people eat they may want to explore it too. And I know it will be different then because they can ask for it and wants it. For now, he like what I give him and I will keep it as healthy as can be.

THANK you for kindly letting me see it. I guess I don't have experience with older children yet. Even less with unschooling.��

When I fist looked into unschooling it was about education not parenting, and I really like and I totally believe that children and humans learn best when they have the willing to do so, when is self chosen and they are ready.. It took me 28 years to finally like and understand math, in college I got straight A's. I did it because I was there for myself, I wanted to be there and I was ready to take in the information. ��I will follow my child's interest and foster his curiosity and I will let him explore because I also believe children learn better by doing things and exploring and not by being lectured with no exploration. Parenting the unschooling ��way is something I have to learn about and try to understand it better. I know I had brought conventional parenting thinking to this group but if I was conventional 100% I would send my child to school and I am not, unless he wants to. So please, bear with me, I am really trying to leave my conventional

thinking and to open to better ways to parenting. (not that easy in some aspects).

Thanks again

Monica

--- On Tue, 1/26/10, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@verizon. net> wrote:

From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@verizon. net>

Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] food and rudeness

To: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com

Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 3:10 PM

��

On Jan 26, 2010, at 3:43 PM, Monica Van Stelton wrote:

> it is very hard for me now to think that I would let my children

> to have ice cream every day and all of that..

It helps to have real kids to talk about rather than made up kids.

The made up kids can act in all sorts of wild ways that sounds

plausible, but it's more useful to discuss real kids. Made up kids

don't have reasons for what they do. Real kids do.

On days we had ice cream in the freezer, my daughter *could* have

eaten it for breakfast, lunch and dinner. But she didn't.

> I have a hard time saying no if we go to the store and he is

> looking a toy...

Sometimes kids just want to hold a toy while they're in the store.

> I am not trying to impose my choices...

I think you're probably trying to get him to eat the way you think is

best. But you *are* imposing your choices. Intent doesn't matter.

What matters to the child is what the actions feel like and say to

him. You can explain all you want that your intent isn't to control

or impose, but if it feels like control, it's the same as if you are

controlling.

> I know that sugar, high fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated oils,

> food coloring, etc is bad

Bad as in will kill you within the hour?

> I bought some cookies that I used to eat in Argentina when I was a

> child and it had, besides all that I mention also beef fat...yuck..

> They taste delicious but is just like eating a crap cake.

How many of those cookies did you have as a kid? I assume you're

still alive.

How about this scenario: You control your son's eating until he

leaves home and then he goes wild gorging on all the forbidden foods

and not only does he like them, he feels guilty, but continues anyway

because his memories of healthy food are wrapped up in memories of

being controlled.

Or you raise your son in an atmosphere of healthy eating (by your

standards) with your understandings swirling around in the air. They

make him feel good about the food you enjoy providing. But because

you want him to be happy, he also feels good about exploring other

foods. When he leaves home he may continue to eat as you provided

because he has warm memories of it. Or he might eat more widely. But

I think it would be unlikely he'd totally reject what you raised him

with because it reminds him of a warm loving home.

If you control his diet for 18 years and he spends the next 50

avoiding healthy food will that be better than if he eats fairly

healthy (because of meals and what you bring into the home) with some

other stuff he's explored thrown in, and then for the rest of his

life he continues like that?

Which of those two is the most healthy life?

I know you *want* the scenario to be you provide the right food and

right information about food and he continues that for the rest of

his life. That's very very unlikely. If control worked, we'd all be

perfect parents and there would be no need for parenting books!

*Everyone* is practically born knowing how to impose their will on

someone else to get their way. Two year olds do it! Humans as a

general rule don't like to learn by being told what's right and

wrong. Humans as a general rule like to try things out and find

what's best for them.

If you want your scenario to happen, you're fighting against human

nature and not only likely to be disappointed but will damage your

relationship with him.

> If your son is walking on the side walk and sees poo would you let

> him eat it?

He trusts that you won't let him eat poop.

It won't help you think clearer if you're casting sugar into the same

box as poop. Tens of millions of people all over the world are eating

sugar. Many many of them are living to old age. There are very few

people eating poop. It won't help your relationship with your son to

see what he's eating and enjoying as poop.

> having it once in a while it won't do as much harm as eating it

> every day.

Yikes, yikes, yikes.

After eating ice cream for several days in a row I'm tired of it.

*That's* what lack of limits allows people to feel. Limits cause

scarcity and a need to get as much as one can before it disappears

again.

This is about TV, but it applies to anything parents want to limit:

http://www.sandrado dd.com/t/ economics

> But it all contributes to ones health and future heart attacks, etc.

I think it's healthier to eat healthier than to try to do everything

"perfectly."

A child raised with nothing but pork rinds and Kentucky Fried chicken

is probably not going to be as healthy as a child whose mother

provides healthful food but allows her child to explore.

But is a child whose mother provides healthful food but allows her

child to explore going to be orders of magnitude less healthy than a

child who is only allowed to eat a narrow range of healthy foods by a

mother who fears he might eat ice cream everyday?

I think what you're doing is taking something that might be bad for

people to base their diets around -- though it depends lots on body

chemistry -- and deciding that even a normal amount is bad.

Extremism will interfere in building a relationship with your son.

There will be times, many times, when the choice comes between what

he wants and what you want for him. Extremism will cause you to

choose your ideals over him. And that's not good for any relationship.

> rely on the parent to provide and take care of them and they trust

> that what you offer and the environment offered is safe and healthy.

When safe and healthy move into the realms of "because mom's done a

lot of reading and that's what the experts say" kids begin to

question it. As your son gets older he will see lots and lots of kids

eating the things you say are bad. If he's a compassionate kid, he'll

be afraid for them. (Fear is very unhealthy emotion.) If he silently

wishes he could have what they have (but keeps quiet because he

doesn't want to hurt you) he will be filled with envy and possibly

anger. (More unhealthy emotions.) If he wonders why they're running

around looking healthy and happy when you say the food is bad, he's

going to wonder if maybe you don't know what you're talking about.

> She may be the model of unschooling but is she a nutritionist? What

> qualifies her to talk about nutrition?

She has discussed unschooling and building relationships with kids

for 17+ years. She has 3 kids: 18, 22 and 23 (I think). They're great

kids. They're honest and thoughtful and really like their parents.

(I've met her whole family several times over the years.) How many

conventional parents can say that?

If you fill your son up with healthy food and he's yelling at you

because you won't let him have a Coke, would you consider that better?

You're trusting -- without actual experience, and with some reports

to the contrary -- that if you control his food that he'll be healthy

and he'll love you for it because to you it's a loving act.

But control can never feel loving. It feels like someone's agenda is

more important than the person it's being imposed on. It's not

guaranteed that he'll fight against you but you're setting up the

environment to make that more likely to happen.

Unschooling is about building relationships and then finding ways to

fit the rest of life in. Healthy eating (and safety and so on) are

not tossed out. They're just secondary to the relationship.

> Gary Null has over 25 years of experience and did many research

> about nutrition he has a PHD in nutrition. I will also read what he

> says about eating junk.

Does Gary Null have teens that love him? Does he have teens he's

proud of and who are proud of him?

I think someone who has 3 teens that have great relationships with

their parents has more credibility in helping others achieve great

relationships than a nutritionist (who may not have kids).

(And Sandra isn't the only one with grown kids who've been radically

unschooled for most of their lives. I have 1. Pam Sorooshian has 3

also. Ren has at least a 20 yo and a few approaching and Kelly has 2

(though the youngest might still be mid teens). If you haven't met

any of us and our kids, you should! I'd pit our kids on politeness

and general all around coolness against Gary Null's any day ;-))

If your goal is nutrition you *will* have to compromise on

relationship. People can't have two goals. Sometimes one will trump

the other. If you switch back and forth, neither goal will flourish

and you'll seem to your son like you don't know what you're doing.

The choice is heathily-fed teen or teen that you have a great

relationship with. Which is more important? Healthily-fed teen

*doesn't* mean you're guaranteed a bad relationship but it means if

you're controlling what he eats, you're on a path that has a good

chance of ending up doing bad things to your relationship.

A great relationship doesn't mean unhealthy. If you give him freedom

to explore, it's unlikely he'll choose exactly as you would for him,

but, if you allow him the freedom to choose, and make the choices you

provide warm and friendly and free of guilt, he's likely to be far

far far healthier than a kid who subsists on fried chicken. He might

even be healthier over all -- because emotions *do* play a huge

factor in health -- than the heathily-fed teen who is fighting

against your control.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

26 Jan 2010, at 10:59pm

THere is a vaccination thread going on at Familyrun.ing.com

http://familyrun.ning.com/

Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

melanie kuhn

27 Jan 2010, at 1:30am

Hello,

when it comes to vaccinations , I did my research and I became a total anti vaccination person.
the harm weighs out the benefit in any circumstance.
in fact there is no proof of any benefits or statistic that will show you the effectiveness of vaccination.
it is in fact a big money scam , and they make billions of the fear of people .
If you take the time and start reading up on the harms of vaccination, you will learn , there is no need for vaccination.
and that some of the vaccination in fact have caused the sickness to break out again. Like the polio scandal in Nigeria !( just read up on it)
no only that , just take a look at the ingredients , that will make you change your mined alone !
,
Most parents who feed their children properly would not let them eat
a food which contained any of the many ingredients of immunizations.

Some of the ingredients in childhood vaccines are: thimerosal
(mercury disinfectant/preservative), aluminum (additive to promote
antibody response), formaldehyde (disinfectant), ethylene glycol
(antifreeze) phenol (disinfectant, dye) benzethonium chloride
(antiseptic) and methylparaben (antifungal, preservative).

Even though ,now ,the pharmaceutical industries is trying to tell the people they have change the ingredients, DON"T believe it , they are lying, .....

if you do you google search on anti vaccination , you will find what damage vaccination possibly could cause and I would not take the risk , then of course don't get confused with the once that will tell you vaccinations are safe :

This information is to provide a balance against the pro-vaccination
literature which is easily available. Anti-vaccination philosophies are
sometimes difficult to find and anti-vaccinationists are called names
in an attempt to discredit their reasoning. One must concede that both
sides are biased in their views, however skewed. Truth is what is
needed and that seems to be lacking in the pro-vaccination literature.
If vaccines were good for us, there would be no reason for dishonesty
and deceit. If vaccines were safe and effective there would be no issue
here. Anti-vaccination literature only wants to support the truth and
honestly tell the facts as they really are. Only by becoming educated
in this very important issue can one make an informed decision. Yet,
every day parents are asked to roll up Johnny�s sleeve with very little
consideration as to what their permission is for. Few people realize
that vaccines are grown on monkey kidneys, mice brains and chicken
embryos. Few people realize the dire consequences of injecting foreign
animal tissues (DNA/RNA) and the auto-immune reactions they can induce.
Few people realize that vaccines are immune depressing and may cause
cancers, leukemias and even have been linked to AIDS.

I hope that helped a little
please all I am saying is , do your research first and than make a decision,.....
there are numerous site out there that are against vaccinations and they bring very good information why the vaccinations are bad for you ...

take care
Melanie

To: [email protected]
From: tatyland_usa@...
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:27:25 -0800
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] vaccinations question.

Hello,

Since I am on the path to learn more about unschooling I'd like to ask you about vaccinations. I promise to not post my opinion. I'd just like to know if you vaccinate or not and if you think is good to do it and why.

Thank you,

Monica

--- On Tue, 1/26/10, Monica Van Stelton <tatyland_usa@...> wrote:

From: Monica Van Stelton <tatyland_usa@...>

Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] food and rudeness. Joyce

To: [email protected]

Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 4:22 PM

Joyce,

You are right. Relationships are VERY important and my child's happiness is more important than having an unhealthy food. I was raised in a way like unschoolers, I chose what I wanted to eat, I could eat ice cream whenever I wanted to, and ate cookies everyday. not only I am still alive :-) that I chose not to eat (that often) any of those.

My son is a baby and I can choose what to offer him because not only he can't tell me that he doesn't ask for other things. As you say once they get older and start seeing how other people eat they may want to explore it too. And I know it will be different then because they can ask for it and wants it. For now, he like what I give him and I will keep it as healthy as can be.

THANK you for kindly letting me see it. I guess I don't have experience with older children yet. Even less with unschooling.

When I fist looked into unschooling it was about education not parenting, and I really like and I totally believe that children and humans learn best when they have the willing to do so, when is self chosen and they are ready.. It took me 28 years to finally like and understand math, in college I got straight A's. I did it because I was there for myself, I wanted to be there and I was ready to take in the information. I will follow my child's interest and foster his curiosity and I will let him explore because I also believe children learn better by doing things and exploring and not by being lectured with no exploration. Parenting the unschooling way is something I have to learn about and try to understand it better. I know I had brought conventional parenting thinking to this group but if I was conventional 100% I would send my child to school and I am not, unless he wants to. So please, bear with me, I am really trying to leave my conventional

thinking and to open to better ways to parenting. (not that easy in some aspects).

Thanks again

Monica

--- On Tue, 1/26/10, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@verizon. net> wrote:

From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@verizon. net>

Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] food and rudeness

To: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com

Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 3:10 PM

On Jan 26, 2010, at 3:43 PM, Monica Van Stelton wrote:

> it is very hard for me now to think that I would let my children

> to have ice cream every day and all of that..

It helps to have real kids to talk about rather than made up kids.

The made up kids can act in all sorts of wild ways that sounds

plausible, but it's more useful to discuss real kids. Made up kids

don't have reasons for what they do. Real kids do.

On days we had ice cream in the freezer, my daughter *could* have

eaten it for breakfast, lunch and dinner. But she didn't.

> I have a hard time saying no if we go to the store and he is

> looking a toy...

Sometimes kids just want to hold a toy while they're in the store.

> I am not trying to impose my choices...

I think you're probably trying to get him to eat the way you think is

best. But you *are* imposing your choices. Intent doesn't matter.

What matters to the child is what the actions feel like and say to

him. You can explain all you want that your intent isn't to control

or impose, but if it feels like control, it's the same as if you are

controlling.

> I know that sugar, high fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated oils,

> food coloring, etc is bad

Bad as in will kill you within the hour?

> I bought some cookies that I used to eat in Argentina when I was a

> child and it had, besides all that I mention also beef fat...yuck..

> They taste delicious but is just like eating a crap cake.

How many of those cookies did you have as a kid? I assume you're

still alive.

How about this scenario: You control your son's eating until he

leaves home and then he goes wild gorging on all the forbidden foods

and not only does he like them, he feels guilty, but continues anyway

because his memories of healthy food are wrapped up in memories of

being controlled.

Or you raise your son in an atmosphere of healthy eating (by your

standards) with your understandings swirling around in the air. They

make him feel good about the food you enjoy providing. But because

you want him to be happy, he also feels good about exploring other

foods. When he leaves home he may continue to eat as you provided

because he has warm memories of it. Or he might eat more widely. But

I think it would be unlikely he'd totally reject what you raised him

with because it reminds him of a warm loving home.

If you control his diet for 18 years and he spends the next 50

avoiding healthy food will that be better than if he eats fairly

healthy (because of meals and what you bring into the home) with some

other stuff he's explored thrown in, and then for the rest of his

life he continues like that?

Which of those two is the most healthy life?

I know you *want* the scenario to be you provide the right food and

right information about food and he continues that for the rest of

his life. That's very very unlikely. If control worked, we'd all be

perfect parents and there would be no need for parenting books!

*Everyone* is practically born knowing how to impose their will on

someone else to get their way. Two year olds do it! Humans as a

general rule don't like to learn by being told what's right and

wrong. Humans as a general rule like to try things out and find

what's best for them.

If you want your scenario to happen, you're fighting against human

nature and not only likely to be disappointed but will damage your

relationship with him.

> If your son is walking on the side walk and sees poo would you let

> him eat it?

He trusts that you won't let him eat poop.

It won't help you think clearer if you're casting sugar into the same

box as poop. Tens of millions of people all over the world are eating

sugar. Many many of them are living to old age. There are very few

people eating poop. It won't help your relationship with your son to

see what he's eating and enjoying as poop.

> having it once in a while it won't do as much harm as eating it

> every day.

Yikes, yikes, yikes.

After eating ice cream for several days in a row I'm tired of it.

*That's* what lack of limits allows people to feel. Limits cause

scarcity and a need to get as much as one can before it disappears

again.

This is about TV, but it applies to anything parents want to limit:

http://www.sandrado dd.com/t/ economics

> But it all contributes to ones health and future heart attacks, etc.

I think it's healthier to eat healthier than to try to do everything

"perfectly."

A child raised with nothing but pork rinds and Kentucky Fried chicken

is probably not going to be as healthy as a child whose mother

provides healthful food but allows her child to explore.

But is a child whose mother provides healthful food but allows her

child to explore going to be orders of magnitude less healthy than a

child who is only allowed to eat a narrow range of healthy foods by a

mother who fears he might eat ice cream everyday?

I think what you're doing is taking something that might be bad for

people to base their diets around -- though it depends lots on body

chemistry -- and deciding that even a normal amount is bad.

Extremism will interfere in building a relationship with your son.

There will be times, many times, when the choice comes between what

he wants and what you want for him. Extremism will cause you to

choose your ideals over him. And that's not good for any relationship.

> rely on the parent to provide and take care of them and they trust

> that what you offer and the environment offered is safe and healthy.

When safe and healthy move into the realms of "because mom's done a

lot of reading and that's what the experts say" kids begin to

question it. As your son gets older he will see lots and lots of kids

eating the things you say are bad. If he's a compassionate kid, he'll

be afraid for them. (Fear is very unhealthy emotion.) If he silently

wishes he could have what they have (but keeps quiet because he

doesn't want to hurt you) he will be filled with envy and possibly

anger. (More unhealthy emotions.) If he wonders why they're running

around looking healthy and happy when you say the food is bad, he's

going to wonder if maybe you don't know what you're talking about.

> She may be the model of unschooling but is she a nutritionist? What

> qualifies her to talk about nutrition?

She has discussed unschooling and building relationships with kids

for 17+ years. She has 3 kids: 18, 22 and 23 (I think). They're great

kids. They're honest and thoughtful and really like their parents.

(I've met her whole family several times over the years.) How many

conventional parents can say that?

If you fill your son up with healthy food and he's yelling at you

because you won't let him have a Coke, would you consider that better?

You're trusting -- without actual experience, and with some reports

to the contrary -- that if you control his food that he'll be healthy

and he'll love you for it because to you it's a loving act.

But control can never feel loving. It feels like someone's agenda is

more important than the person it's being imposed on. It's not

guaranteed that he'll fight against you but you're setting up the

environment to make that more likely to happen.

Unschooling is about building relationships and then finding ways to

fit the rest of life in. Healthy eating (and safety and so on) are

not tossed out. They're just secondary to the relationship.

> Gary Null has over 25 years of experience and did many research

> about nutrition he has a PHD in nutrition. I will also read what he

> says about eating junk.

Does Gary Null have teens that love him? Does he have teens he's

proud of and who are proud of him?

I think someone who has 3 teens that have great relationships with

their parents has more credibility in helping others achieve great

relationships than a nutritionist (who may not have kids).

(And Sandra isn't the only one with grown kids who've been radically

unschooled for most of their lives. I have 1. Pam Sorooshian has 3

also. Ren has at least a 20 yo and a few approaching and Kelly has 2

(though the youngest might still be mid teens). If you haven't met

any of us and our kids, you should! I'd pit our kids on politeness

and general all around coolness against Gary Null's any day ;-))

If your goal is nutrition you *will* have to compromise on

relationship. People can't have two goals. Sometimes one will trump

the other. If you switch back and forth, neither goal will flourish

and you'll seem to your son like you don't know what you're doing.

The choice is heathily-fed teen or teen that you have a great

relationship with. Which is more important? Healthily-fed teen

*doesn't* mean you're guaranteed a bad relationship but it means if

you're controlling what he eats, you're on a path that has a good

chance of ending up doing bad things to your relationship.

A great relationship doesn't mean unhealthy. If you give him freedom

to explore, it's unlikely he'll choose exactly as you would for him,

but, if you allow him the freedom to choose, and make the choices you

provide warm and friendly and free of guilt, he's likely to be far

far far healthier than a kid who subsists on fried chicken. He might

even be healthier over all -- because emotions *do* play a huge

factor in health -- than the heathily-fed teen who is fighting

against your control.

Joyce

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