Still debating...
Caroline Gallear
Hi,
I'm new to this list, and relatively new to the idea of unschooling... what
I've read (Sandra Dodd, bit of John Holt, AlwaysUnschooled list) I really
like, and aim to get that attitude in my daily life with dd, 3.5 years and
ds, 1.5 years.
Currently, I'm trying to find out what I actually think about school, as in,
what is 'bad' about school? I know what I think is 'good' about
unschooling, but dh in particular is of the opinion that we can apply lots
of unschooling attitude at home, but they kids could still go to school...
eg: they won't be forced into loads of after-school activites, we would
explain that doing well in tests doesn't matter to us etc.
The issue of time is one I've heard a lot about - schooled kids just don't
have time to play and explore much.
Does anyone have any quick tips? I know I like unschooling, I feel that now
I need to concentrate on our family situation and see if it's right for us.
So opinions and experiences I can use to branch out my thinking would be
good!
Thanks,
Caroline
dh, dd 3.5, ds 1.5
Hampshire, UK.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm new to this list, and relatively new to the idea of unschooling... what
I've read (Sandra Dodd, bit of John Holt, AlwaysUnschooled list) I really
like, and aim to get that attitude in my daily life with dd, 3.5 years and
ds, 1.5 years.
Currently, I'm trying to find out what I actually think about school, as in,
what is 'bad' about school? I know what I think is 'good' about
unschooling, but dh in particular is of the opinion that we can apply lots
of unschooling attitude at home, but they kids could still go to school...
eg: they won't be forced into loads of after-school activites, we would
explain that doing well in tests doesn't matter to us etc.
The issue of time is one I've heard a lot about - schooled kids just don't
have time to play and explore much.
Does anyone have any quick tips? I know I like unschooling, I feel that now
I need to concentrate on our family situation and see if it's right for us.
So opinions and experiences I can use to branch out my thinking would be
good!
Thanks,
Caroline
dh, dd 3.5, ds 1.5
Hampshire, UK.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenna Robertson
You might try reading "Dumbing us Down" by John Taylor Gatto - it's about the U.S. school system, but I think much of it would still apply.
I would also strongly recommend Alfie Kohn's research and books - there are great articles at his site:
http://www.alfiekohn.org/index.php
We did live a fairly unschooled life before taking our kids out of school, but the changes in them since we took them out of the system last fall have been huge. They are much healthier in very many ways. When they were in school we started drifting apart as a family. The girls stopped playing together and took their tensions and frustrations that came from school out on each other. We had a "good school" where I was actively involved which is why it took me so long to remove them, but even a "good school" can't compare to the job of exploring life together. (my girls are 9.10 and 13 now)
:) Keep reading and learning! :)
Jenna
"What's the matter with you? All it takes is faith and trust. Oh! And something I forgot. Dust!"......
" Yep, just a little bit of pixie dust. Now, think of the happiest things. It's the same as having wings." - Peter Pan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I would also strongly recommend Alfie Kohn's research and books - there are great articles at his site:
http://www.alfiekohn.org/index.php
We did live a fairly unschooled life before taking our kids out of school, but the changes in them since we took them out of the system last fall have been huge. They are much healthier in very many ways. When they were in school we started drifting apart as a family. The girls stopped playing together and took their tensions and frustrations that came from school out on each other. We had a "good school" where I was actively involved which is why it took me so long to remove them, but even a "good school" can't compare to the job of exploring life together. (my girls are 9.10 and 13 now)
:) Keep reading and learning! :)
Jenna
"What's the matter with you? All it takes is faith and trust. Oh! And something I forgot. Dust!"......
" Yep, just a little bit of pixie dust. Now, think of the happiest things. It's the same as having wings." - Peter Pan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 24, 2010, at 4:26 PM, Caroline Gallear wrote:
Products of education
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/products
Why you can't let go
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk
I think one of the worst things about school, at least the academic
part, is that the method works against how we naturally learn. I
don't mean natural in a touchy feely granola way. ;-) I mean natural
as in evolutionary development. Our brains developed -- all animal
brains in fact -- to draw understanding from the world through doing
and observing and reassessing. We observe, come up with a theory of
what should work, try it out then see what parts worked and what
didn't work. And then do some more trial and error. That's the
seemingly effortless process kids go through to go from not knowing
language exists to fluency within a few years. They don't need to
know anything. All they need is time to play and a personally
meaningful reason to use it. They learn as a side effect of using it.
It's very very hard to learn something you don't have an interest in
by memorizing someone else's predigested version of it. Hard because
it doesn't match how we're hardwired to learn. Hard because it's
boring. Hard because it's hours and hours of information that has no
immediate relevance. It's hard to maintain any kind of enthusiasm for
12+ years.
*Some* kids are sponges and they'll suck up what's put before them.
(I was one. School was relatively easy for me.) But because there are
a few kids out of the norm who can absorb it or with effort make that
method work, doesn't mean it's a good way to learn. (Teachers know
kids forget most of what they learned the previous year over the
summer. So what were all those hours for?) Unfortunately the kids
often pick up the message there's something wrong with them for not
doing as well as expected. When the method works against natural
learning it's surprising anyone manages to learn anything.
And what *do* they learn? It's comforting to see test grades that
suggest learning, but in reality it's memorization. Memorization is
not understanding. I went through high school and into college before
I realized multiplication was repeated addition. And I got As in
math. I studied engineering in college. That's not stupid. That's a
huge flaw in the assumption that memorization has anything to do with
understanding.
The second bad thing about school is that it pulls families apart.
Again I'm not being granola! Humans evolved to be with their parents
until they were mid to late teens. There is absolutely no biological
reason little kids should be spending upwards of 6 hours away from
their families trying to navigate the world with mostly their peers
to help them. While most kids manage to survive, it's not optimal.
Some kids survive ghettos too but it's not an environment a caring
parent would choose if they had another option. If you look at the
situation objectively, would it make sense if western do-gooders
swooped into native tribes and segregated all the kids by age, sent
them off to be with a single adult where they couldn't play and only
read about the world. Then they were sent back to their families in
the evening where they should have time to reconnect but they were
given more work to do in isolation.
Unschooling is about being in the world and learning as we've evolved
to learn: by play, by trying things out, by thinking about them.
School is about reading about the world through someone else's
predigested understanding.
Unschooling is building on our passions which is where our strengths
lie.
Schooling is about setting aside our passions for spare time while
memorizing someone else's idea of what will supposedly prepare us to
be anything we want. The problem is it's information without
understanding. And without passions and interests to pursue, few high
school kids have a good grasp on what they'd like to do.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Currently, I'm trying to find out what I actually think aboutHere's a couple of pages that might help:
> school, as in,
> what is 'bad' about school?
Products of education
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/products
Why you can't let go
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk
I think one of the worst things about school, at least the academic
part, is that the method works against how we naturally learn. I
don't mean natural in a touchy feely granola way. ;-) I mean natural
as in evolutionary development. Our brains developed -- all animal
brains in fact -- to draw understanding from the world through doing
and observing and reassessing. We observe, come up with a theory of
what should work, try it out then see what parts worked and what
didn't work. And then do some more trial and error. That's the
seemingly effortless process kids go through to go from not knowing
language exists to fluency within a few years. They don't need to
know anything. All they need is time to play and a personally
meaningful reason to use it. They learn as a side effect of using it.
It's very very hard to learn something you don't have an interest in
by memorizing someone else's predigested version of it. Hard because
it doesn't match how we're hardwired to learn. Hard because it's
boring. Hard because it's hours and hours of information that has no
immediate relevance. It's hard to maintain any kind of enthusiasm for
12+ years.
*Some* kids are sponges and they'll suck up what's put before them.
(I was one. School was relatively easy for me.) But because there are
a few kids out of the norm who can absorb it or with effort make that
method work, doesn't mean it's a good way to learn. (Teachers know
kids forget most of what they learned the previous year over the
summer. So what were all those hours for?) Unfortunately the kids
often pick up the message there's something wrong with them for not
doing as well as expected. When the method works against natural
learning it's surprising anyone manages to learn anything.
And what *do* they learn? It's comforting to see test grades that
suggest learning, but in reality it's memorization. Memorization is
not understanding. I went through high school and into college before
I realized multiplication was repeated addition. And I got As in
math. I studied engineering in college. That's not stupid. That's a
huge flaw in the assumption that memorization has anything to do with
understanding.
The second bad thing about school is that it pulls families apart.
Again I'm not being granola! Humans evolved to be with their parents
until they were mid to late teens. There is absolutely no biological
reason little kids should be spending upwards of 6 hours away from
their families trying to navigate the world with mostly their peers
to help them. While most kids manage to survive, it's not optimal.
Some kids survive ghettos too but it's not an environment a caring
parent would choose if they had another option. If you look at the
situation objectively, would it make sense if western do-gooders
swooped into native tribes and segregated all the kids by age, sent
them off to be with a single adult where they couldn't play and only
read about the world. Then they were sent back to their families in
the evening where they should have time to reconnect but they were
given more work to do in isolation.
Unschooling is about being in the world and learning as we've evolved
to learn: by play, by trying things out, by thinking about them.
School is about reading about the world through someone else's
predigested understanding.
Unschooling is building on our passions which is where our strengths
lie.
Schooling is about setting aside our passions for spare time while
memorizing someone else's idea of what will supposedly prepare us to
be anything we want. The problem is it's information without
understanding. And without passions and interests to pursue, few high
school kids have a good grasp on what they'd like to do.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Toby Rosenberg
Thank you Joyce. I really appreciated your insight. That pretty much sums up my life. I did all the things I was supposed to do, but today I can't figure out what I'm doing here. My only real passion after finishing college was having a family. I've loved birthing nursing and carrying my babies all over the place. Now that I've "awakened" to life beyond what "they" (society, religion, school)tell me to do, I'm not sure what do with my kids, let alone myself. Thank you again for your words. I will be sure to pass this on to my husband.
Toby
Toby
--- On Mon, 1/25/10, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Still debating...
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, January 25, 2010, 12:18 PM
On Jan 24, 2010, at 4:26 PM, Caroline Gallear wrote:
> Currently, I'm trying to find out what I actually think about
> school, as in,
> what is 'bad' about school?
Here's a couple of pages that might help:
Products of education
http://sandradodd. com/joyce/ products
Why you can't let go
http://sandradodd. com/joyce/ talk
I think one of the worst things about school, at least the academic
part, is that the method works against how we naturally learn. I
don't mean natural in a touchy feely granola way. ;-) I mean natural
as in evolutionary development. Our brains developed -- all animal
brains in fact -- to draw understanding from the world through doing
and observing and reassessing. We observe, come up with a theory of
what should work, try it out then see what parts worked and what
didn't work. And then do some more trial and error. That's the
seemingly effortless process kids go through to go from not knowing
language exists to fluency within a few years. They don't need to
know anything. All they need is time to play and a personally
meaningful reason to use it. They learn as a side effect of using it.
It's very very hard to learn something you don't have an interest in
by memorizing someone else's predigested version of it. Hard because
it doesn't match how we're hardwired to learn. Hard because it's
boring. Hard because it's hours and hours of information that has no
immediate relevance. It's hard to maintain any kind of enthusiasm for
12+ years.
*Some* kids are sponges and they'll suck up what's put before them.
(I was one. School was relatively easy for me.) But because there are
a few kids out of the norm who can absorb it or with effort make that
method work, doesn't mean it's a good way to learn. (Teachers know
kids forget most of what they learned the previous year over the
summer. So what were all those hours for?) Unfortunately the kids
often pick up the message there's something wrong with them for not
doing as well as expected. When the method works against natural
learning it's surprising anyone manages to learn anything.
And what *do* they learn? It's comforting to see test grades that
suggest learning, but in reality it's memorization. Memorization is
not understanding. I went through high school and into college before
I realized multiplication was repeated addition. And I got As in
math. I studied engineering in college. That's not stupid. That's a
huge flaw in the assumption that memorization has anything to do with
understanding.
The second bad thing about school is that it pulls families apart.
Again I'm not being granola! Humans evolved to be with their parents
until they were mid to late teens. There is absolutely no biological
reason little kids should be spending upwards of 6 hours away from
their families trying to navigate the world with mostly their peers
to help them. While most kids manage to survive, it's not optimal.
Some kids survive ghettos too but it's not an environment a caring
parent would choose if they had another option. If you look at the
situation objectively, would it make sense if western do-gooders
swooped into native tribes and segregated all the kids by age, sent
them off to be with a single adult where they couldn't play and only
read about the world. Then they were sent back to their families in
the evening where they should have time to reconnect but they were
given more work to do in isolation.
Unschooling is about being in the world and learning as we've evolved
to learn: by play, by trying things out, by thinking about them.
School is about reading about the world through someone else's
predigested understanding.
Unschooling is building on our passions which is where our strengths
lie.
Schooling is about setting aside our passions for spare time while
memorizing someone else's idea of what will supposedly prepare us to
be anything we want. The problem is it's information without
understanding. And without passions and interests to pursue, few high
school kids have a good grasp on what they'd like to do.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]