Shira Rocklin

Meredith wrote: "Modern parents set limits because they've been told
its good parenting to do so - it certainly comes out of care, but also
from a history in which neither parents nor children had the choices
that exist nowadays."

I may have read this wrong, so forgive me. But I took it to mean that
unschooling was an unrealistic way of life 'way back when,' before
certain technologies (or something else that provides choices?) existed,
to which our parents could not have access?

What I am asking is, is unschooling a product of access to information
via technology? Were 'limits' more necessary in a prehistoric, Greek,
ancient Europe, 50 years ago... basically any other time or place where
circumstances were primitive, involved less technology,
hunter-gathering, etc???

There was a bit in a book, I think "The Continuum Concept", where the
author described meeting an indigenous family in South America.
Everyone seemed to do whatever work was necessary to provide for the
group (I think it was farming in this case), but there was this one
grown man who didn't want to help, never participated, just did other
things, or lazed about, I can't remember. Anyways, she talked about how
there were never any expectations for contribution, everyone did what
they wanted to contribute to make everyone's lives better. They didn't
bother this one guy about it, and eventually for some reason, the guy
came up with some other idea, productive, interesting to him,
contributed well to the family, etc... There were no expectations of him
to work. So it sounds, in my unclear memory, like that particular
family was 'unschooling' everyone. Is there any other history of this?

Schuyler

Jean Leidloff wrote a very idealized and unreal story about the Yekwana (she refers to them by a different name that I can't remember). Ray Hames spent a lot of time with the Yekwana and his findings are much different to her story. He found they were people, just like you and me. They have fights and arguments and jealousy. They have slaves and they have infanticide and homicide and sibling rivalry and lots of other stuff going on. Jean Leidloff just visited and saw what she wanted to see and then left and wrote a book about it. There are wonderful books by people Eric Smith and Bruce Winterhalder about joining groups and not doing your share within a group and how that doesn't tend to lead to being supported by a group. The population that is best known for sharing are the Ache and a huge amount of research has been done on the way things are divvyed out and at what age young men begin to help out at the same level as their older counterparts.
Apparently among the Ache young men start pulling their own weight at around 30, roughly the same time as they begin to have families. They are supported by their family and their community until then. Although I imagine they are nagged, as well. Maybe the Yekwana man was moving into adulthood.

That said, there have been different points in time when people have worked to raise their children with kindness and gentleness. There was an interesting talk at the London Unschooling Conference that Sophia Woodley gave that talked about the history of homeschooling. She talked about those folks who followed Rousseau's philosophy on education. It was definitely kinder and gentler than what had gone before, even if all of Rousseau's children died in a foundling hospital. So what we are doing isn't without precedence, but it is pretty new. And when it existed before, for folks like Charles Darwin or Gerald Durrell, it was only those wealthy enough who had such a wonderfully pampered life. And even for those folks it wasn't a life without parental constraints, I imagine. Nor do my children experience a life without limits, but the limits are limits that are real and true and are me being afraid of things or me being unwilling to truly explore the real
boundaries of a situation. The boundaries of my world now go much further than the boundaries of even my world 20 years ago.

Schuyler




________________________________


I may have read this wrong, so forgive me. But I took it to mean that
unschooling was an unrealistic way of life 'way back when,' before
certain technologies (or something else that provides choices?) existed,
to which our parents could not have access?

What I am asking is, is unschooling a product of access to information
via technology? Were 'limits' more necessary in a prehistoric, Greek,
ancient Europe, 50 years ago... basically any other time or place where
circumstances were primitive, involved less technology,
hunter-gathering, etc???

There was a bit in a book, I think "The Continuum Concept", where the
author described meeting an indigenous family in South America.
Everyone seemed to do whatever work was necessary to provide for the
group (I think it was farming in this case), but there was this one
grown man who didn't want to help, never participated, just did other
things, or lazed about, I can't remember. Anyways, she talked about how
there were never any expectations for contribution, everyone did what
they wanted to contribute to make everyone's lives better. They didn't
bother this one guy about it, and eventually for some reason, the guy
came up with some other idea, productive, interesting to him,
contributed well to the family, etc... There were no expectations of him
to work. So it sounds, in my unclear memory, like that particular
family was 'unschooling' everyone. Is there any other history of this?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Shira Rocklin <shirarocklin@...> wrote:
>> What I am asking is, is unschooling a product of access to information
> via technology?

A big part of unschooling is about finding ways over, around and through the limits of our world - technology certainly helps with that! not just in terms of information, but in terms of reducing some of the drudgery of life and allowing people and goods to move more widely and readily. Its much much easier to say "yes" to a young child wanting to get his clothes muddy when there are other clothes to change into, for instance, and none of those clothes have to be washed by hand.

>>Were 'limits' more necessary in a prehistoric, Greek,
> ancient Europe, 50 years ago...

More limits existed, period. When my mother was a girl, oranges were a luxury item, something that she, as a poor mill-worker's child in a big family, got only rarely. The availability of fresh fruit was one of the limits of her life. It wasn't something her parents decided was "good for her" - if anything they looked for ways to bring more of those luxuries into their lives whenever possible.

> There was a bit in a book, I think "The Continuum Concept", where the
> author described meeting an indigenous family in South America.
> Everyone seemed to do whatever work was necessary to provide for the
> group

The Continuum Concept deals with isolated populations, doesn't it? That's not really all that helpful in terms of understanding unschooling - our kids aren't stuck in the same village in which they were born, after all, so there's no reason for them to adapt to that kind of lifestyle if it doesn't suit them. Was it "unschooling" that the village in the story left one member to his own devices until he finally found a way to support the group? Or was it closer to the way some kids eventually "adapt" to school even after a "rough start"? What I know about the Continuum Concept theory tends to revolve around gentle pressure to adapt to "the inevitable" whereas radical unschooling is more likely to question the idea of inevitability.

> Meredith wrote: "Modern parents set limits because they've been told
> its good parenting to do so - it certainly comes out of care, but also
> from a history in which neither parents nor children had the choices
> that exist nowadays."

Part of what I mean by that has to do with that idea of inevitability, or perceived inevitability. At one point, there were less choices as to what and even when and how much to eat, so it was inevitable that children learn to eat what was offered. At one point, it was inevitable that children learn to keep clothes clean because a child might only have two sets of clothes - or less. At one point, it was inevitable that the tv went off at 9pm because there was no other programming. But none of those things are inevitable Now - and yet requiring children to live as if they were has gotten tied up with ideas of good parenting.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)