Re: [unschoolingbasics] I think I need to clarify on the foods. ~smiling~
R & N Tomassone
HEllo earthmothergypsy!!
I am very pleased to meet someone who cares about food as much as you do!!! Lots of folks don't seem to "get" how important what we put in our bodies is. I am thrilled to meet you online and hope I can in person someday!!! BIG smiles, Rachel Tomassone
I am very pleased to meet someone who cares about food as much as you do!!! Lots of folks don't seem to "get" how important what we put in our bodies is. I am thrilled to meet you online and hope I can in person someday!!! BIG smiles, Rachel Tomassone
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], R & N Tomassone <nrgt@...> wrote:
The above is a great example of using a statement that, on the surface looks and sounds nice, but is made in an attempt to spread shame and guilt and by so doing control other people's behavior. Its ugliness in a cute dress. Its also relatively normal, acceptable parenting behavior! Its even considered by some to be Better parenting (and depending on what you compare it to, that could even be true). Some kids grown numb to that kind of parenting, on the surface anyway. Some internalize the shame in profound ways. My stepson, who's bio mom uses statements like that, has learned to withdraw, to push his needs and wants and wishes down below the surface so that they are not in danger of commentary. It takes an active effort on my part to let him know those needs and wants and wishes are important. It takes an active commitment on my part to Offer the things I think he might want, want to try, because he "knows better" than to ask.
Now, I'm not saying anyone on this list is necessarily as extreme as Ray's bio mom, but radical unschooling also isn't about finding nicer ways to shame people "for their own good". This list is about helping people figure out the ideas, but also the nuts and bolts practicality of How one goes about saying Yes, and saying it joyfully more often than uncertainly, in the midst of a world that pushes parents to be "cruel to be kind".
If you (generic you) have been in the habit of making shaming statements to control a child's behavior, and are looking to change that, one thing you can do is offer more. Appologise and explain, as the subject comes up, that you've been a bit extreme in your expressions and that you want to do better, and offer more of the things you shamed away in the past. Experiment with those things, yourself, even. Its good to talk about why you've changed your tune, but often its not necessary to say more than "I was kind of over the top" or whatever applies because the kids know that already. They just couldn't tell you to your face before ;)
For many people food and eating are intimate experiences. Eating is intimate to me. The texture and fluidity of foods, their smells and colors, can affect me deeply. The idea of someone else telling me what to eat is like that of someone telling me how I should make love. There are foods that most people consider healthy that are unpleasant to me. That sounds so slight: unpleasant, but it seems laughable to state something like "kale is a violation of my inner self". Silly right? But that's how I **feel** about it.
I can't tell my kids how to make love. I can offer them resources, basic facts, people to talk with, books that approach the subject from different perspectives. I can be relatively open about my own joys and sorrows, my own concerns and strategies, but I can't give them those things. They will, inevitably, discover joys and strategies of their own.
I can't give them perfect diets, either, for some of the same reasons I can't teach them how to make love - its too intimate a subject! What's good for them is going to depend on things I don't know, can't possibly know For them, and they can only know through their own process of discovery.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>I thought hard about letting this message through because I know some people are going to find it insulting, and it is, like complimenting one child to punish another (and if it was intended as a private message then Oops! be more careful!). It brings up a couple of points, though, that relate to unschooling, and the first is How we go about passing on our ideas about the world to our kids.
> HEllo earthmothergypsy!!
> I am very pleased to meet someone who cares about food as much as you do!!!
The above is a great example of using a statement that, on the surface looks and sounds nice, but is made in an attempt to spread shame and guilt and by so doing control other people's behavior. Its ugliness in a cute dress. Its also relatively normal, acceptable parenting behavior! Its even considered by some to be Better parenting (and depending on what you compare it to, that could even be true). Some kids grown numb to that kind of parenting, on the surface anyway. Some internalize the shame in profound ways. My stepson, who's bio mom uses statements like that, has learned to withdraw, to push his needs and wants and wishes down below the surface so that they are not in danger of commentary. It takes an active effort on my part to let him know those needs and wants and wishes are important. It takes an active commitment on my part to Offer the things I think he might want, want to try, because he "knows better" than to ask.
Now, I'm not saying anyone on this list is necessarily as extreme as Ray's bio mom, but radical unschooling also isn't about finding nicer ways to shame people "for their own good". This list is about helping people figure out the ideas, but also the nuts and bolts practicality of How one goes about saying Yes, and saying it joyfully more often than uncertainly, in the midst of a world that pushes parents to be "cruel to be kind".
If you (generic you) have been in the habit of making shaming statements to control a child's behavior, and are looking to change that, one thing you can do is offer more. Appologise and explain, as the subject comes up, that you've been a bit extreme in your expressions and that you want to do better, and offer more of the things you shamed away in the past. Experiment with those things, yourself, even. Its good to talk about why you've changed your tune, but often its not necessary to say more than "I was kind of over the top" or whatever applies because the kids know that already. They just couldn't tell you to your face before ;)
>> Lots of folks don't seem to "get" how important what we put in our bodies is.I don't know a single person, unschooling or not, that doesn't "get" that. Honestly. Its not a big bad world of Us and Them - the ones who Know and those who Don't Get It. Everyone, all the time, is doing the absolute best s/he can with the resources s/he has available. Some people don't have the "resources" to spend so much time in the kitchen - physical and emotional resources. Some people derive more joy and satisfaction from doing other things. Some people find joy and satisfaction are more important than what they eat.
For many people food and eating are intimate experiences. Eating is intimate to me. The texture and fluidity of foods, their smells and colors, can affect me deeply. The idea of someone else telling me what to eat is like that of someone telling me how I should make love. There are foods that most people consider healthy that are unpleasant to me. That sounds so slight: unpleasant, but it seems laughable to state something like "kale is a violation of my inner self". Silly right? But that's how I **feel** about it.
I can't tell my kids how to make love. I can offer them resources, basic facts, people to talk with, books that approach the subject from different perspectives. I can be relatively open about my own joys and sorrows, my own concerns and strategies, but I can't give them those things. They will, inevitably, discover joys and strategies of their own.
I can't give them perfect diets, either, for some of the same reasons I can't teach them how to make love - its too intimate a subject! What's good for them is going to depend on things I don't know, can't possibly know For them, and they can only know through their own process of discovery.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
earthmothergypsy
Thank you!
There are toxins all around us that we can't avoid--that is fact. There are a lot of toxins and dangerous chemicals in the foods offered these days--that is fact. All these things cause ill effects in our bodies---that is fact. None of it is fear. It is fact. Our family just feel that there are enough toxins in the world around us that we can't avoid, and by choosing to eat the safest ingredients we can it will help to keep our kid's bodies and our bodies as healthy as we can. I know some don't see how this is part of an unschooling lifestyle, but they just have no idea what our life is really like. They can't because they are not living here. We are a very laid back hippy type family that respects our children and allows them to learn as they see fit what they wish to learn when they wish to learn. They all have a voice and use them quiet well. :o) They aren't afraid to speak their minds, ask questions, or state something just doesn't make sense or work for them. They are very opinionated! lol!
We live a very rural life and are blessed to be where we are and able to live like we do. Something I am very thankful for. We talk through everything and make decisions that effect our family with the whole family with everyone giving input and then basically the decision is based in the end with the majority. Unschooling is our life or you can say we life an unschooling life. Every part of it, from our natural eating, to our natural healing, to all the whacky things we do on a daily basis are all part of our unschooling life.
Sharing what our life is like and what we do so others can know us better is all I've offered.
There are toxins all around us that we can't avoid--that is fact. There are a lot of toxins and dangerous chemicals in the foods offered these days--that is fact. All these things cause ill effects in our bodies---that is fact. None of it is fear. It is fact. Our family just feel that there are enough toxins in the world around us that we can't avoid, and by choosing to eat the safest ingredients we can it will help to keep our kid's bodies and our bodies as healthy as we can. I know some don't see how this is part of an unschooling lifestyle, but they just have no idea what our life is really like. They can't because they are not living here. We are a very laid back hippy type family that respects our children and allows them to learn as they see fit what they wish to learn when they wish to learn. They all have a voice and use them quiet well. :o) They aren't afraid to speak their minds, ask questions, or state something just doesn't make sense or work for them. They are very opinionated! lol!
We live a very rural life and are blessed to be where we are and able to live like we do. Something I am very thankful for. We talk through everything and make decisions that effect our family with the whole family with everyone giving input and then basically the decision is based in the end with the majority. Unschooling is our life or you can say we life an unschooling life. Every part of it, from our natural eating, to our natural healing, to all the whacky things we do on a daily basis are all part of our unschooling life.
Sharing what our life is like and what we do so others can know us better is all I've offered.
--- In [email protected], R & N Tomassone <nrgt@...> wrote:
>
> HEllo earthmothergypsy!!
> I am very pleased to meet someone who cares about food as much as you do!!! Lots of folks don't seem to "get" how important what we put in our bodies is. I am thrilled to meet you online and hope I can in person someday!!! BIG smiles, Rachel Tomassone
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:59 PM, earthmothergypsy wrote:
eating (however a Mom defines it) is not incompatible with unschooling.
Using the following to explain to a child is not conducive to free
exploration:
in the child choosing like you do.
They're chemicals. While their intent is to stop bugs and other
creatures from eating the fruit (and poison might be appropriate for
some of the chemicals) saying they've been sprayed with poison
creates an image of them being dunked in Drano and that's not the
truth. While you may feel they're similar, to help a child make their
own choices, we should be very aware that we're not creating a
picture that would prevent them from deciding for themselves.
It's a rare child who could choose a poison over something clean
without some emotional burden attached to it. So they'd end up with
chemicals *and* guilt.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> by choosing to eat the safest ingredients we can it will help toWhat you're not getting from what's being written is that healthy
> keep our kid's bodies and our bodies as healthy as we can. I know
> some don't see how this is part of an unschooling lifestyle, but
> they just have no idea what our life is really like.
eating (however a Mom defines it) is not incompatible with unschooling.
Using the following to explain to a child is not conducive to free
exploration:
> .one has been irradiated and sprayed with all sorts of poisons andThat's propaganda. They're emotionally laden words that tip the scale
> the other one is clean
>
in the child choosing like you do.
They're chemicals. While their intent is to stop bugs and other
creatures from eating the fruit (and poison might be appropriate for
some of the chemicals) saying they've been sprayed with poison
creates an image of them being dunked in Drano and that's not the
truth. While you may feel they're similar, to help a child make their
own choices, we should be very aware that we're not creating a
picture that would prevent them from deciding for themselves.
It's a rare child who could choose a poison over something clean
without some emotional burden attached to it. So they'd end up with
chemicals *and* guilt.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
earthmothergypsy
Last time I looked pesticides WHERE poisons. Does anyone remember the nice pesticide DDT????? They are all dangerous poisons to our bodies whether we want to admit it or not.
No organic foods are perfectly clean either. They are better, but still there is a risk. The only safe food is that grown naturally in your own garden and even then they have to have the bug poop washed off of them. :o) Our children do need to know that one type is safer and better to eat. They aren't burdened by the truth. Information and truth provides them with the ability to make an informed decision. IMHO
No organic foods are perfectly clean either. They are better, but still there is a risk. The only safe food is that grown naturally in your own garden and even then they have to have the bug poop washed off of them. :o) Our children do need to know that one type is safer and better to eat. They aren't burdened by the truth. Information and truth provides them with the ability to make an informed decision. IMHO
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:59 PM, earthmothergypsy wrote:
>
> > by choosing to eat the safest ingredients we can it will help to
> > keep our kid's bodies and our bodies as healthy as we can. I know
> > some don't see how this is part of an unschooling lifestyle, but
> > they just have no idea what our life is really like.
>
>
> What you're not getting from what's being written is that healthy
> eating (however a Mom defines it) is not incompatible with unschooling.
>
> Using the following to explain to a child is not conducive to free
> exploration:
>
> > .one has been irradiated and sprayed with all sorts of poisons and
> > the other one is clean
> >
>
> That's propaganda. They're emotionally laden words that tip the scale
> in the child choosing like you do.
>
> They're chemicals. While their intent is to stop bugs and other
> creatures from eating the fruit (and poison might be appropriate for
> some of the chemicals) saying they've been sprayed with poison
> creates an image of them being dunked in Drano and that's not the
> truth. While you may feel they're similar, to help a child make their
> own choices, we should be very aware that we're not creating a
> picture that would prevent them from deciding for themselves.
>
> It's a rare child who could choose a poison over something clean
> without some emotional burden attached to it. So they'd end up with
> chemicals *and* guilt.
>
> Joyce
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "earthmothergypsy" <earthmothergypsy@...> wrote:
It might not be an issue (it isn't now, almost certainly, 2yos aren't terribly interested in the options outside the house, where food is concerned, its around 4ish that becomes and issue) if your child is comfortable eating the way "everyone else" eats. There are kids like that and families like that, for sure! But there are also lots of people who come to unschooling because our kids throw us for a loop, flying in the face of everything we thought we knew about good parenting. Those families won't do well with an assumption that a Whole Family can make decisions about anything at all.
You keep flip flopping between "we" meaning "we parents" and it meaning the whole family. You've said you all decide, but here you say you and your husband decide. Its a mixed message. By using those kinds of mixed messages you create an image of a home where there are lots of mixed messages, messages like "you can have whatever you want: the poisoned food or the good food made with love." Now that may not be exactly what you are doing but its certainly the impression you're giving!
And many other unschoolers live similar lifestyles! But its not some kind of perfect lifestyle - not even necessarily perfect for every member of your family - that's not a criticsm! Its an observation about human difference. I live in the woods, and love that, but I'm also on the look out for signs that it may not be the best option for my kids, my stepson, in particular. Why? Because he's a veeeerrry social person. He has big social needs that aren't met by just our one family. Right now, he's found ways to get those needs met in our little back water, and that's a good thing, but I still look for ways for him to get Out now and then. Friends and extended family are helpful there.
Lately, my 8yo has been talking museums, so I'm also looking beyond our little corner of nowhere for her sake, looking for more friends and extended family to visit so we can do some fun museum trips.
I'm not unaware of the advantages of where I live, but neither am I unaware of the disadvantages, and how those affect my kids. The lack of public transportation is a big issue. The lack of services is a smaller issue, but one that affects the choices members of my family have. The lack of other people nearby is an issue for Ray. So far, we've found solutions for those issues that don't include moving, but for my family, moving is on the table if it meets the needs of my kids better than staying put.
You're right, we can't know, all we have are your words, what they say and what they (may) imply. No-one here is trying to tell you there's something wrong with your lifestyle! What we are doing is asking you to clarify some of these words, and challenging some of the implications - As They Pertain to Radical Unschooling. That's what this list is for.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>Our family just feel thatYour family includes a 2yo - that child hasn't had a chance to be part of the discussion yet. That's important! It doesn't help unschooling to "stick to your guns" - it doesn't help kids learn the delicate process of thinking and deciding, of observing causes and effects. Raising a child the way you've raised every other child ignores that child's uniqueness, that child's human need for choosing and trying.
It might not be an issue (it isn't now, almost certainly, 2yos aren't terribly interested in the options outside the house, where food is concerned, its around 4ish that becomes and issue) if your child is comfortable eating the way "everyone else" eats. There are kids like that and families like that, for sure! But there are also lots of people who come to unschooling because our kids throw us for a loop, flying in the face of everything we thought we knew about good parenting. Those families won't do well with an assumption that a Whole Family can make decisions about anything at all.
>>by choosing to eat the safest ingredients we can it will help to keep our kid's bodies and our bodies as healthy as we can.**************
You keep flip flopping between "we" meaning "we parents" and it meaning the whole family. You've said you all decide, but here you say you and your husband decide. Its a mixed message. By using those kinds of mixed messages you create an image of a home where there are lots of mixed messages, messages like "you can have whatever you want: the poisoned food or the good food made with love." Now that may not be exactly what you are doing but its certainly the impression you're giving!
>>Every part of it, from our natural eating, to our natural healing, to all the whacky things we do on a daily basis are all part of our unschooling life.***********************
And many other unschoolers live similar lifestyles! But its not some kind of perfect lifestyle - not even necessarily perfect for every member of your family - that's not a criticsm! Its an observation about human difference. I live in the woods, and love that, but I'm also on the look out for signs that it may not be the best option for my kids, my stepson, in particular. Why? Because he's a veeeerrry social person. He has big social needs that aren't met by just our one family. Right now, he's found ways to get those needs met in our little back water, and that's a good thing, but I still look for ways for him to get Out now and then. Friends and extended family are helpful there.
Lately, my 8yo has been talking museums, so I'm also looking beyond our little corner of nowhere for her sake, looking for more friends and extended family to visit so we can do some fun museum trips.
I'm not unaware of the advantages of where I live, but neither am I unaware of the disadvantages, and how those affect my kids. The lack of public transportation is a big issue. The lack of services is a smaller issue, but one that affects the choices members of my family have. The lack of other people nearby is an issue for Ray. So far, we've found solutions for those issues that don't include moving, but for my family, moving is on the table if it meets the needs of my kids better than staying put.
>>I know some don't see how this is part of an unschooling lifestyle, but they just have no idea what our life is really like. They can't because they are not living here.********************
You're right, we can't know, all we have are your words, what they say and what they (may) imply. No-one here is trying to tell you there's something wrong with your lifestyle! What we are doing is asking you to clarify some of these words, and challenging some of the implications - As They Pertain to Radical Unschooling. That's what this list is for.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "earthmothergypsy" <earthmothergypsy@...> wrote:
And the soil tested. And whatever your water source. Rainwater isn't necessarily safe, and certainly not springwater.
NO ONE is trying to argue that there are no hazards in the world. The world is perilous. I live in the woods. My home is surrounded by one hundred percent natural, probably even organic, toxic plants, poisonous snakes and dangerous animals. Poisonous spiders live in my home.
From an unschooling point of view, the issue isn't that there are dangers here there and everywhere, its How do we go about empowering our children and ourselves to make thoughtful choices - not "good" choices! just thoughtful ones. Because you can't guarantee good choices.
Saying Danger Danger Danger! does't promote thoughtful choices, nor does it help communication. Please keep to the topic of radical unschooling itself, not The World Is Dangerous, because we all know that, but what are some of the strategies that help parents help kids navigate the world with a sense of personal power and freedom.
As a moderator, I'm asking that you step back from Danger and Peril and focus on what unschooling really is about, helping each other live joyfully, right now, walking alongside our children as their partners.
---Meredith (co-moderator, unschooling basics)
>******************
>The only safe food is that grown naturally in your own garden and even then they have to have the bug poop washed off of them.
And the soil tested. And whatever your water source. Rainwater isn't necessarily safe, and certainly not springwater.
NO ONE is trying to argue that there are no hazards in the world. The world is perilous. I live in the woods. My home is surrounded by one hundred percent natural, probably even organic, toxic plants, poisonous snakes and dangerous animals. Poisonous spiders live in my home.
From an unschooling point of view, the issue isn't that there are dangers here there and everywhere, its How do we go about empowering our children and ourselves to make thoughtful choices - not "good" choices! just thoughtful ones. Because you can't guarantee good choices.
Saying Danger Danger Danger! does't promote thoughtful choices, nor does it help communication. Please keep to the topic of radical unschooling itself, not The World Is Dangerous, because we all know that, but what are some of the strategies that help parents help kids navigate the world with a sense of personal power and freedom.
As a moderator, I'm asking that you step back from Danger and Peril and focus on what unschooling really is about, helping each other live joyfully, right now, walking alongside our children as their partners.
---Meredith (co-moderator, unschooling basics)