shirarocklin

And who have older children.

I read, on this list, and in other Unschooling resources, about children joining in with keeping the house running, all on their own initiative. I believe it. I was just wondering, is it regular? Do they take on some particular 'chore'? Are they consistent about it? Or are you reflecting on the times that they volunteered, or 'felt like it' and appreciating that? At some age, have you ever asked them if they could do you a favor by taking on some particular chore?

I think I'm curious about at what age children who are radically unschooled generally start to think about cleaning and stuff? Its probably moreso if parents clean often, right?

I worry about us modelling how to live in mess/filth. I would like to be always clean, but somehow can't manage it, with littles/babies. Will they think that is the 'normal' state of homes?

At what 'age' do parents start having time, or being able to step away from kids without the kids melting down, in order to go and tidy up, or clean?

Professional Parenting

My kids stopped grumbling about chores around age 12 where they actually remember to do them on their own and regularly. However, and a big, however, the chores are now part of routine because they have been expected to do them for years now, just as they have expected me to provide food, dinner, etc for years now!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Judy Arnall
Parenting Speaker, Trainer and Author of Canadian bestseller: Discipline Without Distress: 135
tools for raising caring, Responsible children without time-out, spanking, punishment or bribery
Cell: (403) 714-6766 Email jarnall@...
Internet: www.professionalparenting.ca


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carenkh

>>My kids stopped grumbling about chores around age 12 where they actually remember to do them on their own and regularly. However, and a big, however, the chores are now part of routine because they have been expected to do them for years now, just as they have expected me to provide food, dinner, etc for years now!<<

Can you clarify what you're saying here? Were your kids required to do chores? What if they chose not to? Did they have that option?

I'm wanting clarification because "expecting" reads a lot like "requiring", which does not fit into the way I radically unschool. Actually, it wouldn't be radically unschooling at all. So, before I reply with that in mind, I wanted to see if I was reading this right.

Thanks,
Caren

Schuyler

Simon and Linnaea have only once or twice cleaned without asking or it already being something that is going on. So, spontaneously. They are 12 and 9 and when they did spontaneously clean they were younger. I don't know when/if it will happen. They are amazing at helping, at doing a favour, at giving a moment's gift. Mostly. Sometimes they say no to a request, or more than likely nothing. They don't really like to say no. But they are very willing to take a dish into the kitchen, find the trash, get something for someone else. Just not necessarily a spontaneous act. Although that isn't totally fair. If I have a headache, Simon will hunt down the bean bag we use for a hot pack and heat it in the microwave. Linnaea will offer gifts of things regularly. But cleaning and dishes and laundry, nope, none of that.

When David and I were first married we had a friend whose husband expected her to keep the house in a certain level of care. I asked him why he didn't expect that of me, he figured he wanted me to care for Simon more than he wanted a clean house. So, there was that. And it extends out. I want Simon and Linnaea to enjoy their lives and the things in them. I'm honestly not paying that much attention to when/if they help with the things that I do because I want them done.

Schuyler




________________________________
From: shirarocklin <shirarocklin@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 16 December, 2009 12:22:46
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] For those who have been unschooling for many years...

And who have older children.

I read, on this list, and in other Unschooling resources, about children joining in with keeping the house running, all on their own initiative. I believe it. I was just wondering, is it regular? Do they take on some particular 'chore'? Are they consistent about it? Or are you reflecting on the times that they volunteered, or 'felt like it' and appreciating that? At some age, have you ever asked them if they could do you a favor by taking on some particular chore?

I think I'm curious about at what age children who are radically unschooled generally start to think about cleaning and stuff? Its probably moreso if parents clean often, right?

I worry about us modelling how to live in mess/filth. I would like to be always clean, but somehow can't manage it, with littles/babies. Will they think that is the 'normal' state of homes?

At what 'age' do parents start having time, or being able to step away from kids without the kids melting down, in order to go and tidy up, or clean?





------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Professional Parenting" <jarnall@...> wrote:
>
> My kids stopped grumbling about chores around age 12

Ray stopped grumbling when we stopped expecting him to do them. It took a couple years of deschooling for him to do things voluntarily, after that, but when he did, there was no grumbling. Instead, there was honest gratitude for his graciousness.

>>the chores are now part of routine because they have been expected to do them for years now
*******************

That's a common parenting misconception - that its the enforced repetition of tasks that causes kids to learn; whether to read, to multiply, to say "please", or to clean up. ALL those things are things kids will choose to do when they are ready, developmentally, to do them and remember to do them Without years of practice.

The trouble is that we've been led to believe that kids Should do a certain amount of the labor around the house, and that this is somehow "fair". That's an idea worth questioning! Not every culture in every age has expected children to act as domestic servants to their parents, and I certainly know responsible adults, today, who grew up with household servants just as I know irresponsible adults who grew up with chores and expectations.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "shirarocklin" <shirarocklin@...> wrote:
>> I read, on this list, and in other Unschooling resources, about children joining in with keeping the house running, all on their own initiative. I believe it. I was just wondering, is it regular? Do they take on some particular 'chore'? Are they consistent about it?
*******************

At 8, Mo takes the initiative where feeding pets is concerned. She's pretty regular and consistent about it. She also takes the initiative to close bags. That doesn't sound like much of a "chore" but the male members of our family seem to have a mental block where closing bags is concerned, leaving us with a lot of stale chips, crackers, cereal and cheese. So Mo's work in this department has been valuable to the family economy.

Ray started volunteering to cook a couple years back and cooks pretty regularly - more often than I do! He also washes dishes and cleans the kitchen, stacks and carries in firewood, and does his own laundry. Firewood is something we remind him to deal with, George especially since he isn't always physically able to deal with the logs, where, if I'm home from work I'll more often just go get wood. Ray also splits wood by hand, but that's more a stress-reduction thing than something he does for the family. We just get a nice side-benefit to his bad moods.

> Or are you reflecting on the times that they volunteered, or 'felt like it' and appreciating that?
*******************

I've noticed with my kids, just like with my adult partner, I can get all worked up noticing what they Don't do, or I can feel all warm and happy thinking about what they Do. I could write a laundry list of the things George doesn't do (starting with laundry!) for instance, but it doesn't help my relationship with him to see him in that light. The same is true of my kids. I could turn housekeeping into something we grouse and complain about for years, but it doesn't help the relationship. It doesn't help them learn to keep house, either.

>>At some age, have you ever asked them if they could do you a favor by taking on some particular chore?
*****************

When Ray first moved back in with us, after six years of living with his bio mom, we asked him to help with the dishes. We didn't tell him he could say "no" - and I'm not sure he'd have believed us, at the time, if we had. He "willingly" did the dishes, but after a few weeks, he did less of them, and did them less well. He'd delay until George would remind him, and then until George would snipe at him, and when it got past sniping to obvious nagging George and I talked about it and decided to let the matter drop. Two years of deschooling later he started doing dishes again, spontaneously.

I've asked Mo to put paper scraps in a particular box, but most of the time she forgets. She's too busy with what she's creating to keep up with the scraps. Now and then, if I'm sorting legos, I'll ask for her help and she'll do that, but she doesn't remember to put legos back in the little bins on her own. Again, she's too busy creating.

> I worry about us modelling how to live in mess/filth. I would like to be always clean, but somehow can't manage it, with littles/babies. Will they think that is the 'normal' state of homes?
********************

Years ago I had a girlfriend with two daughters. My friend was an utter slob. One daughter seemed to have not the least housekeeping facility and we assumed it was a result of her mom's lifestyle, until the other dd got a bit older. Around puberty she started cleaning her own room, then the upstairs hall, then the kitchen and dining area (the living room was a lost cause by then).

I grew up in a tidy house, with my mom pushing for clean clean clean, and my brother is very tidy. I'm not. I've lived with very little, back before I had kids, and then I was sort of tidy, just as a result of having less stuff than space. I have an easy time being clean when I stay with friends who keep a clean house - at least outside the bedroom. My personal stuff is always a bit of a clutter.

There are skills its useful to learn, for sure, but they aren't learned better for shoving them onto kids who aren't interested or willing. There are cooking skills I remember my mother teaching me that I never learned until I chose to start cooking those foods and then my hands fumbled as if I'd never held that tool before. There are knitting and sewing skills I haven't done since I was a kid that feel so natural the moment I pick up the tool it surprises me - and those are all things I chose to learn, even though they were mere passing fancies at the time.

> At what 'age' do parents start having time, or being able to step away from kids without the kids melting down, in order to go and tidy up, or clean?
***********************

Depends on the kids. If your kids are melting down, that's a good sign they're not ready ;) There are some things you can learn to do with kids in tow, or underfoot, or "helping" (and sometimes really helping, too) depending on the kids, too. Some kids need more focused attention. Some kids have bigger needs! Those needs don't get smaller by being treated as less important, if anything, they get even bigger.

Mo has always been pretty independent, but up until around age 5 she still needed someone to keep an eye on her to make sure her independence was balanced out by understanding of the situation - safety issues, for the most part. As long as we were in the house I could get things done with her doing her own thing by then, though. I didn't get much of anything done between the time she learned to walk and around age 4ish, unless she was asleep or watching a movie. Ray needed more attention, overall, but when he was 7 I could do a lot with him in the same room, as long as I kept up my end of the conversation. At 6 he still needed more focus than that.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

Professional Parenting

Yes, the kids were expected to do chores and often didn't want to do it. We didn't force the issue, but the expectation was always there. That's backbone parenting.
Warmly,
Judy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Judy Arnall
Parenting Speaker, Trainer and Author of Canadian bestseller: Discipline Without Distress: 135
tools for raising caring, Responsible children without time-out, spanking, punishment or bribery
Cell: (403) 714-6766 Email jarnall@...
Internet: www.professionalparenting.ca
Speaker bio: http://bureau.espeakers.com/caps/speaker.php?sid=10763&showreturntoresults=true
Linked-in: www.linkedin.com/in/judyarnall
Twitter: www.twitter.com/JudyArnall
Amazon blog: http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/A1R7S822XSIVBA/ref=cm_blog_dp_artist_blog
Youtube channel: www.youtube.com/parentproblemsolver
Facebook: http://profile.to/judyarnall
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: carenkh
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 10:39 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: For those who have been unschooling for many years...



>>My kids stopped grumbling about chores around age 12 where they actually remember to do them on their own and regularly. However, and a big, however, the chores are now part of routine because they have been expected to do them for years now, just as they have expected me to provide food, dinner, etc for years now!<<

Can you clarify what you're saying here? Were your kids required to do chores? What if they chose not to? Did they have that option?

I'm wanting clarification because "expecting" reads a lot like "requiring", which does not fit into the way I radically unschool. Actually, it wouldn't be radically unschooling at all. So, before I reply with that in mind, I wanted to see if I was reading this right.

Thanks,
Caren





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Professional Parenting

HI Caron:
Thanks very much for seeking clarification. I really appreciate that!
Judy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Judy Arnall
Parenting Speaker, Trainer and Author of Canadian bestseller: Discipline Without Distress: 135
tools for raising caring, Responsible children without time-out, spanking, punishment or bribery
Cell: (403) 714-6766 Email jarnall@...
Internet: www.professionalparenting.ca
Speaker bio: http://bureau.espeakers.com/caps/speaker.php?sid=10763&showreturntoresults=true
Linked-in: www.linkedin.com/in/judyarnall
Twitter: www.twitter.com/JudyArnall
Amazon blog: http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/A1R7S822XSIVBA/ref=cm_blog_dp_artist_blog
Youtube channel: www.youtube.com/parentproblemsolver
Facebook: http://profile.to/judyarnall
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Professional Parenting
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: For those who have been unschooling for many years...



Yes, the kids were expected to do chores and often didn't want to do it. We didn't force the issue, but the expectation was always there. That's backbone parenting.
Warmly,
Judy

----------------------------------------------------------
Judy Arnall
Parenting Speaker, Trainer and Author of Canadian bestseller: Discipline Without Distress: 135
tools for raising caring, Responsible children without time-out, spanking, punishment or bribery
Cell: (403) 714-6766 Email jarnall@...
Internet: www.professionalparenting.ca
Speaker bio: http://bureau.espeakers.com/caps/speaker.php?sid=10763&showreturntoresults=true
Linked-in: www.linkedin.com/in/judyarnall
Twitter: www.twitter.com/JudyArnall
Amazon blog: http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/A1R7S822XSIVBA/ref=cm_blog_dp_artist_blog
Youtube channel: www.youtube.com/parentproblemsolver
Facebook: http://profile.to/judyarnall
----------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: carenkh
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 10:39 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: For those who have been unschooling for many years...

>>My kids stopped grumbling about chores around age 12 where they actually remember to do them on their own and regularly. However, and a big, however, the chores are now part of routine because they have been expected to do them for years now, just as they have expected me to provide food, dinner, etc for years now!<<

Can you clarify what you're saying here? Were your kids required to do chores? What if they chose not to? Did they have that option?

I'm wanting clarification because "expecting" reads a lot like "requiring", which does not fit into the way I radically unschool. Actually, it wouldn't be radically unschooling at all. So, before I reply with that in mind, I wanted to see if I was reading this right.

Thanks,
Caren

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

<<< the kids were expected to do chores and often didn't want to do it. We didn't force the issue, but the expectation was always there. That's backbone parenting.>>>


-=-=-=-=-=-
So what happened when they did not want to do the chores?
How did you get them to do them when they did not want to?
What happens when your kids don't fulfill your expectations?
 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia Woodman

This is a term that is new to me. Can you say more about backbone
parenting? How were these expectations communicated to your kids? Were
there emotional consequences (for you or for them) when they didn't want to
do the chores you expected them to do and you didn't force the issue? How
did it make you feel?

I find it helpful not to think of tasks at home as chores but rather as
gifts for the people I love. My DD recently figured out how to make her bed
the way she likes it. One morning this week she made my bed too. She was
so excited to show me what she did. Rather than respond, "That's great
honey now you can do that every morning for the rest of the time you live
here." I accepted the made bed as the gift that it is. She may never make
my bed again and that is fine.

My parents are both ill. I made them soup this week. It's not a chore for
me it is a gift for them. DH takes special care to get the stains out of
DS's favorite shirt not because laundry is his chore but because we know how
much DS loves the shirt.

I hate *housework* but I love having space for all of us to do our important
work in the house.

All the best,

Sylvia (Gabriella 5.5 and Harry 3.5)

On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 1:30 AM, Professional Parenting <jarnall@...>wrote:

>
>
> Yes, the kids were expected to do chores and often didn't want to do it. We
> didn't force the issue, but the expectation was always there. That's
> backbone parenting.
> Warmly,
> Judy
>

Schuyler

What does "backbone parenting" mean? It isn't a term that I've ever heard. I'm wondering if the implication is that those of us, me for example, who don't have chores that they expect their children to do are parenting spinelessly?

Schuyler




________________________________
From: Professional Parenting <jarnall@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 18 December, 2009 6:30:07
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: For those who have been unschooling for many years...

Yes, the kids were expected to do chores and often didn't want to do it. We didn't force the issue, but the expectation was always there. That's backbone parenting.
Warmly,
Judy

--


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyla Wolfenstein

i think it comes from barbara coloroso - author of "kids are worth it" and a few others. i have never liked the terms - i think there's backbone, jellyfish, and one other - the extreme authoritarian end - can't remember what she calls that :/


----- Original Message -----
From: Schuyler
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: For those who have been unschooling for many years...



What does "backbone parenting" mean? It isn't a term that I've ever heard. I'm wondering if the implication is that those of us, me for example, who don't have chores that they expect their children to do are parenting spinelessly?

Schuyler

________________________________
From: Professional Parenting <jarnall@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 18 December, 2009 6:30:07
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: For those who have been unschooling for many years...

Yes, the kids were expected to do chores and often didn't want to do it. We didn't force the issue, but the expectation was always there. That's backbone parenting.
Warmly,
Judy

--

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

Ahh, I'm a jellyfish parent. Cool, I like jellyfish.

Thanks!




________________________________
From: Lyla Wolfenstein <lylaw@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 18 December, 2009 9:04:49
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: For those who have been unschooling for many years...

i think it comes from barbara coloroso - author of "kids are worth it" and a few others. i have never liked the terms - i think there's backbone, jellyfish, and one other - the extreme authoritarian end - can't remember what she calls that :/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

I was thinking about the word chores after I posted my question about backbone parenting. It isn't a word that I have a lot of fondness for. I prefer to think about chores in a Laura Ingalls Wilder way, going to do the chores being about chopping wood and taking the cows to graze in a new field or bringing them in for the night and hauling water from the creek. Big things, necessary for life.

When I was a child I had a summer chore list, it was busy work, things like cleaning out the kitchen cupboards. I would get a star on the chore board for each chore I'd done, my mom was desperate to find ways to motivate me to do something required in summer. But summer was my time and I wasn't easily motivated. So the end result was a fair bit of shouting and grounding and me feeling like I was a lazy child. The chores weren't ever anything life required. Those things my parents did. They got the money and the food and they did the basic life stuff. The chores that I was given, that they worked so hard to make me do, those chores were minor and relatively inconsequential things, like bed making. I still only make the beds when company is coming to stay. And now David and I do the life required things and the rest, well, the rest gets done when we want to do it. The cats have fleas at the moment. That means that the vacuuming is done daily, because I
don't like fleas infesting the house and biting human ankles. Anyone can help, if they want, but no one is expected to, no one gets a star on a big cardboard chart, just a thank you. And no one gets grounded for not vacuuming, not even me. There is little in my life that suffers from not being done right now. Most things can be done later, when I have more minutes in a row to spend, and less that I'm being asked to share.

Schuyler




________________________________
From: Professional Parenting <jarnall@...>

Yes, the kids were expected to do chores and often didn't want to do it.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Professional Parenting

Nothing. The rest of the family worked and the kids who didn't (usually just one at a time) wandered around the house, looking kind of out of place. The music is on full blast and we are dancing away having fun while scrubbing. The music kind of drowns out the electronics. Then we are done and life goes on. As the weeks wear on, the reluctant ones were more eager to join in with the working crowd. People want to contribute. It's a basic need.
Warmly,
Judy

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Judy Arnall
Parenting Speaker, Trainer and Author of Canadian bestseller: Discipline Without Distress: 135
tools for raising caring, Responsible children without time-out, spanking, punishment or bribery
Cell: (403) 714-6766 Email jarnall@...
Internet: www.professionalparenting.ca
Speaker bio: http://bureau.espeakers.com/caps/speaker.php?sid=10763&showreturntoresults=true
Linked-in: www.linkedin.com/in/judyarnall
Twitter: www.twitter.com/JudyArnall
Amazon blog: http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/A1R7S822XSIVBA/ref=cm_blog_dp_artist_blog
Youtube channel: www.youtube.com/parentproblemsolver
Facebook: http://profile.to/judyarnall
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: For those who have been unschooling for many years...



<<< the kids were expected to do chores and often didn't want to do it. We didn't force the issue, but the expectation was always there. That's backbone parenting.>>>

-=-=-=-=-=-
So what happened when they did not want to do the chores?
How did you get them to do them when they did not want to?
What happens when your kids don't fulfill your expectations?

Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Professional Parenting

Backbone parenting, to me, means having a balance of nurturing and age-appropriate expectations for our children.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Judy Arnall
Parenting Speaker, Trainer and Author of Canadian bestseller: Discipline Without Distress: 135
tools for raising caring, Responsible children without time-out, spanking, punishment or bribery
Cell: (403) 714-6766 Email jarnall@...
Internet: www.professionalparenting.ca
Speaker bio: http://bureau.espeakers.com/caps/speaker.php?sid=10763&showreturntoresults=true
Linked-in: www.linkedin.com/in/judyarnall
Twitter: www.twitter.com/JudyArnall
Amazon blog: http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/A1R7S822XSIVBA/ref=cm_blog_dp_artist_blog
Youtube channel: www.youtube.com/parentproblemsolver
Facebook: http://profile.to/judyarnall
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Schuyler
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 1:52 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: For those who have been unschooling for many years...



What does "backbone parenting" mean? It isn't a term that I've ever heard. I'm wondering if the implication is that those of us, me for example, who don't have chores that they expect their children to do are parenting spinelessly?

Schuyler

________________________________
From: Professional Parenting <jarnall@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 18 December, 2009 6:30:07
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: For those who have been unschooling for many years...

Yes, the kids were expected to do chores and often didn't want to do it. We didn't force the issue, but the expectation was always there. That's backbone parenting.
Warmly,
Judy

--

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi McNulty

This is very interesting Judy. How was the expectation expressed and how
were the varying responses of the children handled?
Heidi

JJ

We've been "unschooling many years" and can assure those exploring the basics that this kind of authoritarian attitude isn't it, doesn't help anyone get to it and doesn't belong in a discussion of it.

--- In [email protected], "Lyla Wolfenstein" <lylaw@...> wrote:
>
> i think it comes from barbara coloroso - author of "kids are worth it" and a few others. i have never liked the terms - i think there's backbone, jellyfish, and one other - the extreme authoritarian end - can't remember what she calls that :/
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Schuyler
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 12:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: For those who have been unschooling for many years...
>
>
>
> What does "backbone parenting" mean? It isn't a term that I've ever heard. I'm wondering if the implication is that those of us, me for example, who don't have chores that they expect their children to do are parenting spinelessly?
>
> Schuyler
>
> ________________________________
> From: Professional Parenting <jarnall@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Friday, 18 December, 2009 6:30:07
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: For those who have been unschooling for many years...
>
> Yes, the kids were expected to do chores and often didn't want to do it. We didn't force the issue, but the expectation was always there. That's backbone parenting.
> Warmly,
> Judy
>
> --
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Jenna Robertson

From early on one of my least favorite parts of parenting was trying to "get the kids to help."  Our house was a disaster as I tried to survive 3 small children with limited resources, including tight finances and a lack of close family/friends.  I could never figure out how to get the kids to help clean up.  It felt like a huge failure to me because I never managed to follow through on any of the grand ideas of manipulation we created (charts, rewards, punishments).  The kids hated to help.  The minute we mentioned cleaning up at least one of our girls would go into a tantrum.  We'd all end up hurt or angry and nothing actually got clean. 
 
Finding radical unschooling/unconditional parenting was such a blessing!!  It was like someone was giving me permission to stop the insanity.  And now when we have company coming (that the girls are excited to see) the child who used explode at the thought of cleaning is the child helping to making sure things are cleaned up!  I'll admit that my attitude is the biggest challenge still in the way of family harmony as I do have those moments when I'm soooo tired and it seems like everyone else gets to do what they want to do while I have to do the slogging through that is part of life (dishes, laundry, clean the kitty little box....)  But that's my job (cleaning up And healing my attitude).
 
Having "expectations" never worked for our family.  Letting go has made a huge difference.  Having a "backbone" to me is making your kids do what you think is best when they don't want to do it.  The idea behind having a backbone is to stand up to someone, and I don't see how that fits into unschooling. 
 
Jenna


 
 
 
"If I had influence with the good fairy who is supposed to preside over the christening of all children, I would ask that her gift to each child in the world be a sense of wonder so indestructible that it would last throughout life."
               - Rachel Carson


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plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Professional Parenting" <jarnall@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, the kids were expected to do chores and often didn't want to do it. We didn't force the issue, but the expectation was always there. That's backbone parenting.
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As opposed to radical unschooling, which is what this list exists to discuss. There are a zillion sources out there that can give you advice on how to "get" kids to do things they don't want to do, and comparatively few that exist for the purpose of helping parents understand how to live a different way, by a different paradigm.

Radical unschooling doesn't work by parents imposing expectations on kids. Those expectations break down the relationship - maybe not a ton, if the expectations are light, the consequences gentle, and the kids not too sensitive, but little by little. And they aren't necessary! Kids don't learn what parents think they learn from them! Holding a child hostage to expectations doesn't create caring responsible people - if your kids have grown to be caring and responsible, its despite your expectations, not because of them.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

meadowgirl11

Yes, chores had a different meaning for my dad growing up on a dairy farm where there really was so much work that the boys needed to be a part of. I am sure they didn't love it, but they could easily see the meaning in it, the need for it. Not like the kind of "chores" like taking out the garbage or making the bed that are clearly not important to anyone except to parents who want to make sure their kids are "contributing". Terran loves the kind of real work that people do for an important reason and he will happily, in fact excitedly work alongside someone building a roof on an outdoor kitchen or collecting firewood for the winter. But to expect him to feel the same way about cleaning a toilet it just not really realistic. I, on the other hand, do get that same sense of satisfaction from a clean toilet, so it makes sense for me to do it myself.

And I just realized that this was a question for those who have been unschooling for years, which is certainly not me, but I can say that since finding unschooling, letting go of forcing chores was one of the first things to go, since it caused so much struggle and distress for us. I was never that big on it and only tried to do it because of ideas like "backbone" parenting (don't even get me started on how many problems Barbara Coloroso and her ideas have caused in my relationship with my son, yuck!) and the fact that I was a single mom for many years and could have used the help, if it had worked, which it didn't.

But guess what? The other night, after almost a year of deschooling, with absolutely no chores expected for most of that time, my husband and my son decided to spontaneously clean up the downstairs room to set it up better for playing wii! Terran (9), who normally screams and covers his ears if someone vacuums in his vicinity, went upstairs, got the vacuum himself, dragged it downstairs and vacuumed. No one asked him to, he may never do it again, but it was his choice and he sure felt pleased with himself when he was done. Sure, he stopped when the area he was concerned about was done and I finished up later. His idea of tidy was certainly not the same as mine either, but it was very creative and well thought out. It was such a milestone I had to write it on the calendar. I wouldn't trade any amount of forced or "expected" chores for that moment.

--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> I was thinking about the word chores after I posted my question about backbone parenting. It isn't a word that I have a lot of fondness for. I prefer to think about chores in a Laura Ingalls Wilder way, going to do the chores being about chopping wood and taking the cows to graze in a new field or bringing them in for the night and hauling water from the creek. Big things, necessary for life.
>
> When I was a child I had a summer chore list, it was busy work, things like cleaning out the kitchen cupboards. I would get a star on the chore board for each chore I'd done, my mom was desperate to find ways to motivate me to do something required in summer. But summer was my time and I wasn't easily motivated. So the end result was a fair bit of shouting and grounding and me feeling like I was a lazy child. The chores weren't ever anything life required. Those things my parents did. They got the money and the food and they did the basic life stuff. The chores that I was given, that they worked so hard to make me do, those chores were minor and relatively inconsequential things, like bed making. I still only make the beds when company is coming to stay. And now David and I do the life required things and the rest, well, the rest gets done when we want to do it. The cats have fleas at the moment. That means that the vacuuming is done daily, because I
> don't like fleas infesting the house and biting human ankles. Anyone can help, if they want, but no one is expected to, no one gets a star on a big cardboard chart, just a thank you. And no one gets grounded for not vacuuming, not even me. There is little in my life that suffers from not being done right now. Most things can be done later, when I have more minutes in a row to spend, and less that I'm being asked to share.
>
> Schuyler
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Professional Parenting <jarnall@...>
>
> Yes, the kids were expected to do chores and often didn't want to do it.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> What does "backbone parenting" mean?

It comes from a spectrum model of parenting that supposes parents are "brick walls" or "jellyfish" with "back bone parents" in between. Back bone parents use words like "expectations" to mean rules that are enforced through manipulation with more compliant children, and "consequences" with less compliant children. Its certainly a gentler form of parenting, but its a long cry from radical unschooling.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Professional Parenting" <jarnall@...> wrote:
>
> Nothing. The rest of the family worked and the kids who didn't (usually just one at a time) wandered around the house, looking kind of out of place.
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How unkind! If one of my kids was wandering around the house, looking out of place, I'd stop what I was doing and go to that kid, offer to do something with him or her! A clean counter is less important to me than my kids' needs. A regular cleaning schedule is less of a concern to me than helping my kids feel that their presence in my life is meaningful.

I often clean while Ray hangs out and chats with me. Its a nice time for us to socialize - good for me because I don't sit still well, and good for him bc he know's I'm not going to go anywhere for a little while and he can get a good chunk of my attention. When he cleans, I make an effort to do the same, to hang out with him so he has some company, and cleaning can be something that feels good, not just something that "has" to be done. I don't need to create a special time for that to happen - he wanders in and starts on the dishes, and I'll pull whatever I'm doing into the kitchen and hang out.

>>People want to contribute. It's a basic need.

And its possible to trust in that without placing a burden of expectations. That's one of the ways in which radical unschooling is very different from conventional parenting - there's a lot more trust that those underlying emotional needs are enough to motivate people. They are!

Placing expectations on children is about a lack of trust that human nature is "enough" for people to be good to one another. It grows from a fear that, if kids aren't trained to be good (albeit gently) they will lack the ability to be kind, generous, and thoughtful people.

> Backbone parenting, to me, means having a balance of nurturing and age-appropriate expectations for our children.
********************

And yet your expectations have not been developmentally appropriate - you said so yourself, they complained until sometime around adolescence, the time when kids who haven't lived with chores and expectations will take on household tasks spontaneously. I realize you probably didn't know that, because you'd been told all your life that "children Have to learn" and like the vast majority of parents believed it (why wouldn't you? everyone knows its true, right?). So you looked for ways to make "having" to learn a little kinder and gentler. Good for you! But that's not the kind of parenting we're talking about here.

Children are busy people, busy growing, exploring, discovering, learning All the time! Imposing chores gets in the way of that, gets in the way of them learning about their own wants and wishes and needs and motivations in the same way imposing rules and limits does.

>>People want to contribute. It's a basic need.

Young children are fascinated by household tasks and want to help at every turn. Eventually, they get over that, those aren't challenging tasks and they move on. Older children also want to contribute, to help, but they are also interested in looking for new ways to help, to choose when and how to contribute. They look for a wide range of contributions, too, emotional contributions. They offer hugs, make presents, invite parents to play, invite parents to smile. Those are Real contributions to their parents lives, but sooooo often parents overlook the real value of those small acts of kindness and wonder "but why won't she clean her room?" as if a clean floor and a made bed were somehow more valuable than the shared joy of a child's success at a game.

Its better to expect kids to be kids, and then look to see what that means, rather than deciding what kids "should" be able to do at a given age and requiring it under the guise of expectations. It wouldn't help me one bit to have expectations that my 8yo could get most of her paper scraps into the waste-baskets, when she clearly can't. She's too involved in her projects. I could press the matter, and make a clean floor more important than a hundred one-inch paper snowflakes, an articulated paper spongebob, seven paper mouse puppets and a tree full of paper ornaments, but doing so doesn't help her value cleaning Or help her in her wonderful ventures in the world of paper crafts. It doesn't help Me value the contributions she does make, either - mostly emotional contributions, with a few small tasks on the side - and I Want to value the contributions she does make. I want to see her in all her glory, a caring, thoughtful person who gets wrapped up in her own stuff, just like I do.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

Lyla Wolfenstein

>>Its better to expect kids to be kids, and then look to see what that means, rather than deciding what kids "should" be able to do at a given age and requiring it under the guise of expectations. It wouldn't help me one bit to have expectations that my 8yo could get most of her paper scraps into the waste-baskets, when she clearly can't. She's too involved in her projects. >>>>>>>>>>

exactly - i said to my son (11) the other day, on my way out the door to pick up my daughter (14) "if you would be willing to clear the table so we can eat as soon as i get home, that'd be really great!" he said sure. i was pretty sure he would forget - it's not in his MO yet to remember stuff like that on his own, or even to be willing a lot of the time, and he was in the middle of something when i asked him. when i got home, he had COMPLETELY cleared the table, and it was such a pleasant surprise! it didn't matter at ALL to me that he had dumped the newspaper he'd cleared onto the living room floor. if i'd criticized him for that it would have detracted so much from his sense of contribution.

lyla

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Jenna Robertson

One of the things this group has helped me internalize is that cleaning up is not more important, or even as important, as the activity that lead to the need to clean up.
 
My younger two have taken up cooking.  One makes brownies (age 10, makes them from scratch by memory and adds secret ingredients.  She gives them as gifts to people she loves and is so happy!) and the other make pancakes (age 9 in a week and when I don't feel like making dinner and say "let's have pancakes" she asks if she can make them!  That frees me up to cut up fruit and we can be in the kitchen together.)  Both want to do it all by themselves.  Both have no interest in cleaning up the incredible mess left behind.  So many parents/grandparents have said to me "if they cook they have to clean up" but that now makes no sense to me.  If I made them clean up, they wouldn't cook.  I'd much rather have them cooking and enjoying it than have them avoiding cooking because they know it leads to washing dishes and counters (and floors and walls and...)
 
Yesterday I walked into the kitchen to find my 13 yr old wiping cocoa off the counter so she could make herself food, and grumbling about her sisters not cleaning up.  As I helped her clean up the mess it gave me a chance to mention to her that I think her sisters having fun in the kitchen is more important and I see any residual clean up as my responsibility.  My 13 yr old was cleaning up and making her own food.  A gift to herself and me :).  We've come a long way in a year.
 
:)
Jenna
 
 
 
 
"If I had influence with the good fairy who is supposed to preside over the christening of all children, I would ask that her gift to each child in the world be a sense of wonder so indestructible that it would last throughout life."
               - Rachel Carson


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Professional Parenting

Hi Heidi:
I love your name, BTW, as my daughter is named that.
The expectations were expressed by me saying "I feel......when the house is a mess and .....I need help in running it smoother." As an introvert, I feel aweful and the kids don't notice unless I communicate this to them. The older ones ask what needs done and I made up a huge list of all the tasks that need doing and they volunteered for the ones they would take on. It wouldn't matter if they were little jobs, or fun jobs, or infrequent jobs. Everything helped. In a family of seven people, the house can get pretty messy pretty fast and some of us can't live that way. We need to communicate to others that it's a problem for us. When some of the children reacted defensively, as some would, I listened with empathy, but restated my needs. When I listened to their resistance, they responded much more helpful. When I let my kids see that I'm a real person with real needs too, they want to help. If they don't, I wouldn't punish them physically, nor emotionally. It's amazing how kids step up to the expectation and how good they feel after a sense of accomplishment. Of course, we rotate and try different chores (I would rather call them duties!) so that everyone doesn't get stuck doing something they hate. However, I could never reframe it and look at it as a gift to someone. That would just not sit well with me. I've tried and it didn't work.
Warmly,
Judy

Professional Parenting

Hi Meredith:
I have to disagree. We all live and want to know expectations, but not be forced into them. Just as I get an invitation to a party of people I don't know, I need to know the dress expectations. I don't want to be forced into complying to the dress code, but I want an idea of what is expected so that I can freely choose to honor the expectation or not. I believe that kids and adults live the same way and I do not expect to share the same definition of backbone parenting as you do. To me, it's providing structure and expectations with a lot of nurturing, no punishment and a lot of guidance. Research proves that children who have that kind of upbringing tend to be happiest and close with their parents. They are not always obediant children, but certainly the most confident in navigating social norms and the world which they will eventually live in. I'm here as my child's guide as I describe in my book. I'm the person who outlines societies expectations to them and help them navigate what they want and need to do. I don't "impose" expectations to my children, nor hold them "hostage" but I certainly communicate them verbally and probably non-verbally. The expectations are not always light, and I don't use consequences. I have sensitive children and they are okay about things. In fact, I have four teenagers in the house right now and we have never had a door slam in the house!
Proof enough for me that it's working all right for our family. :-)
Warmly,
Judy

Professional Parenting

I don't think "inforced" is correct in the same sentence as "backbone". Anyway, that's not my definition of backbone. I don't believe in consequences either.

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Judy Arnall

Professional Parenting

I have to disagree again. Doing chores is a valuable learning experience: as you say, they "grow, explore, discover, and learn".
There is valuable science in discovering how chemicals attack mould in the shower and why lemon juice gets the shower door clear, but not soap.
Warmly,
Judy

Professional Parenting

I word things pretty well like that too. Would he have thought of it on his own if you didn't say anything? :-)

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Judy Arnall