Hi New Member
haecklers
Hello everyone! I'm a mother of two wonderful kids - son turning 7 this weekend and daughter, 9 going on 15. We're kind sort of unschooling - did mostly unschooling the last school year but then I felt she was not challenging herself enough, her spelling became atrocious, handwriting was very bad, and I never let go completely of the math but didn't do much other than tell her I really wanted her to learn the times tables this year (she did - using a game).
For the coming year, I'm thinking of asking her to do 4 math problems a day just so she doesn't forget how to do basic subtraction and such. Also to write in a "Friday Journal" - kind of a photo album with narrative of what cool thing happened that week, so she can work a bit on her handwriting but also have a keepsake to treasure later.
The problem is, she was in public school for awhile and really hated it; now she doesn't want to do much at all that smacks of school and I fear its keeping her from even learning naturally. We're going into her third year of homeschooling, after 2 years of public school. She actually didn't hate public school that much, but now she acts like it was the worst thing ever, and I wonder if she feels a little odd going against the current of what most kids are doing and is covering some defensiveness about it. We had a couple of discussions about the pros and cons of homeschooling, but I'm not militant about it.
My son is taking to unschooling like a duck to water. He's way ahead in science (loves physics!) but a bit behind in reading and won't hold a pencil or write at all, tho he can sign his first name. Part of the problem is big sister puts him down as being stupid whenever he can't perform as well as she does, so he doesn't even try. We've started doing "Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons" - half a lesson a night (they are pretty long!) and he's coming along. He wants to do that, but won't do the writing parts. He learned addition up to 10's on his own and likes to quiz me on math problems the say "That's right!" - LOL!
For the coming year, I'm thinking of asking her to do 4 math problems a day just so she doesn't forget how to do basic subtraction and such. Also to write in a "Friday Journal" - kind of a photo album with narrative of what cool thing happened that week, so she can work a bit on her handwriting but also have a keepsake to treasure later.
The problem is, she was in public school for awhile and really hated it; now she doesn't want to do much at all that smacks of school and I fear its keeping her from even learning naturally. We're going into her third year of homeschooling, after 2 years of public school. She actually didn't hate public school that much, but now she acts like it was the worst thing ever, and I wonder if she feels a little odd going against the current of what most kids are doing and is covering some defensiveness about it. We had a couple of discussions about the pros and cons of homeschooling, but I'm not militant about it.
My son is taking to unschooling like a duck to water. He's way ahead in science (loves physics!) but a bit behind in reading and won't hold a pencil or write at all, tho he can sign his first name. Part of the problem is big sister puts him down as being stupid whenever he can't perform as well as she does, so he doesn't even try. We've started doing "Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons" - half a lesson a night (they are pretty long!) and he's coming along. He wants to do that, but won't do the writing parts. He learned addition up to 10's on his own and likes to quiz me on math problems the say "That's right!" - LOL!
swissarmy_wife
--- In [email protected], "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote:
Unschooling doesn't usually include curriculum and nightly lessons, or pressure to perform. It does include allowing your children to BE right where they are and trusting that they will learn. :-)
-Heather
=====================================================================
>******I'm wondering if you have read much about unschooling? Because what you are describing doesn't really sound like unschooling at all. Maybe it would be good for you to do some reading or researching?
> My son is taking to unschooling like a duck to water. He's way ahead in science (loves physics!) but a bit behind in reading and won't hold a pencil or write at all, tho he can sign his first name. Part of the problem is big sister puts him down as being stupid whenever he can't perform as well as she does, so he doesn't even try. We've started doing "Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons" - half a lesson a night (they are pretty long!) and he's coming along. He wants to do that, but won't do the writing parts. He learned addition up to 10's on his own and likes to quiz me on math problems the say "That's right!" - LOL!
>
Unschooling doesn't usually include curriculum and nightly lessons, or pressure to perform. It does include allowing your children to BE right where they are and trusting that they will learn. :-)
-Heather
=====================================================================
Ren Allen
~~ We've started doing "Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons" - half a lesson a night (they are pretty long!) and he's coming along. He wants to do that, but won't do the writing parts. ~~
Unschooling is not about teaching, rather about trusting the learning process. Without lessons, without teaching, without curriculum a child will learn naturally. If a child chooses those formal learning experiences, without any pressure or expectations from anyone, that's a different matter.
It sounds like a more relaxed style of homeschooling you all do...I hope you'll stick around and learn about unschooling. Welcome to the list!
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Unschooling is not about teaching, rather about trusting the learning process. Without lessons, without teaching, without curriculum a child will learn naturally. If a child chooses those formal learning experiences, without any pressure or expectations from anyone, that's a different matter.
It sounds like a more relaxed style of homeschooling you all do...I hope you'll stick around and learn about unschooling. Welcome to the list!
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
haecklers
Well, everyone I meet locally who says they unschool actually spend a great deal of time doing educational activities and they buy TONS of educational stuff - some to have around in case their kids want it but a lot of it because the parents hope their kids will do it. They tell me they're unschooling and I think "Wow, am I being lazy? I mostly let the kids play and do things they want to do". We do a lot together, too, but it's stuff they want to do.
So on the spectrum for unschoolers, do you think this group represents the far extreme of unschooling or the typical unschooler, and maybe I've only been meeting unschoolers who are on the "schooling" side of the spectrum? (I do live in a high-achieving area.)
Or did I maybe just confuse the group because I talked about the things I WAS doing educationally-wise rather than all the unschooling stuff we do?
So on the spectrum for unschoolers, do you think this group represents the far extreme of unschooling or the typical unschooler, and maybe I've only been meeting unschoolers who are on the "schooling" side of the spectrum? (I do live in a high-achieving area.)
Or did I maybe just confuse the group because I talked about the things I WAS doing educationally-wise rather than all the unschooling stuff we do?
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~ We've started doing "Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons" - half a lesson a night (they are pretty long!) and he's coming along. He wants to do that, but won't do the writing parts. ~~
>
>
> Unschooling is not about teaching, rather about trusting the learning process. Without lessons, without teaching, without curriculum a child will learn naturally. If a child chooses those formal learning experiences, without any pressure or expectations from anyone, that's a different matter.
>
>
> It sounds like a more relaxed style of homeschooling you all do...I hope you'll stick around and learn about unschooling. Welcome to the list!
>
> Ren
> radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
>
haecklers
I'd love for you to direct me to some good books on the subject. I've read Holt but the books I have are about teaching kids stuff in a relaxed manner, about lessons and educational activities.
--- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife" <heatherbean@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote:
> >
> > My son is taking to unschooling like a duck to water. He's way ahead in science (loves physics!) but a bit behind in reading and won't hold a pencil or write at all, tho he can sign his first name. Part of the problem is big sister puts him down as being stupid whenever he can't perform as well as she does, so he doesn't even try. We've started doing "Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons" - half a lesson a night (they are pretty long!) and he's coming along. He wants to do that, but won't do the writing parts. He learned addition up to 10's on his own and likes to quiz me on math problems the say "That's right!" - LOL!
> >
>
> ******I'm wondering if you have read much about unschooling? Because what you are describing doesn't really sound like unschooling at all. Maybe it would be good for you to do some reading or researching?
>
> Unschooling doesn't usually include curriculum and nightly lessons, or pressure to perform. It does include allowing your children to BE right where they are and trusting that they will learn. :-)
>
> -Heather
>
> =====================================================================
>
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote:
That's a common reaction to school and school at home. When Ray left school, at 13, he spent a solid six months not wanting to learn about much other than computer games and tv shows. Now, almost three years later, he can't imagine a day without learning - but very little of it looks like school learning.
Natural learning *doesn't* look like school learning for the most part. Its swirly and complex and goes off on tangents, sometimes never to return. It looks like play, and cuddling on the couch, and conversations at midnight.
Here's a place to start reading, if you're interested in learning more:
http://sandradodd.com/puddle
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>> The problem is, she was in public school for awhile and really hated it; now she doesn't want to do much at all that smacks of school and I fear its keeping her from even learning naturally.***********************
That's a common reaction to school and school at home. When Ray left school, at 13, he spent a solid six months not wanting to learn about much other than computer games and tv shows. Now, almost three years later, he can't imagine a day without learning - but very little of it looks like school learning.
Natural learning *doesn't* look like school learning for the most part. Its swirly and complex and goes off on tangents, sometimes never to return. It looks like play, and cuddling on the couch, and conversations at midnight.
Here's a place to start reading, if you're interested in learning more:
http://sandradodd.com/puddle
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
swissarmy_wife
--- In [email protected], "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote:
Enjoy!
Heather
www.swissarmywife.net
=======================================================================
>******A couple of good free resources are Sandra Dodd's website. a plethora of information. www.sandradodd.com/unschooling and also www.joyfullyrejoycing.com You could spend hours upon hours at these sites.
> I'd love for you to direct me to some good books on the subject. I've read Holt but the books I have are about teaching kids stuff in a relaxed manner, about lessons and educational activities.
Enjoy!
Heather
www.swissarmywife.net
=======================================================================
Ren Allen
~~Or did I maybe just confuse the group because I talked about the things I WAS doing educationally-wise rather than all the unschooling stuff we do?~~
But unschooling isn't "stuff you do", it's a lifestyle. THere isn't unschooling stuff and educational stuff if you unschool. Unschooling is living life and trusting that learning happens ALL the time. You don't have to view things as "educational" or not...it's all just different kinds of things to learn about.
The way Holt described unschooling was about trusting the natural learning process to unfold by simply being interested and curious in the world around us. It was about parents assisting their children with whatever they were into at the moment, rather than deciding what they want their children to be interested in.
Doesn't mean parents don't swirl new ideas, activities etc... into the mix. Kids won't know what's out there unless you share, but unschooling is about trusting that your ideas, activities etc...aren't more important than something else they might be into. It's trusting that they are learning all the time. It's having FUN together and focusing on relationships not what is "educational" or not.
Maybe you know people who's children are simply into more formal kinds of learning, without any pressure from the adults and so you assumed that's what all unschoolers look like.:) Maybe you hang out with people who DO curriculum and call it unschooling. I don't know. To me, unschooling is NOT schooling. In any form unless the child chooses it.
Every unschooling household looks completely different of course, so it's harder to say "here's what it looks like". It looks different for every unique family that embraces it. But the ideas/philosophies remain the same....that humans learn best when they are free to explore anything and everything that interests them, all the time. Lessons and teaching run the risk of damaging that natural process.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
But unschooling isn't "stuff you do", it's a lifestyle. THere isn't unschooling stuff and educational stuff if you unschool. Unschooling is living life and trusting that learning happens ALL the time. You don't have to view things as "educational" or not...it's all just different kinds of things to learn about.
The way Holt described unschooling was about trusting the natural learning process to unfold by simply being interested and curious in the world around us. It was about parents assisting their children with whatever they were into at the moment, rather than deciding what they want their children to be interested in.
Doesn't mean parents don't swirl new ideas, activities etc... into the mix. Kids won't know what's out there unless you share, but unschooling is about trusting that your ideas, activities etc...aren't more important than something else they might be into. It's trusting that they are learning all the time. It's having FUN together and focusing on relationships not what is "educational" or not.
Maybe you know people who's children are simply into more formal kinds of learning, without any pressure from the adults and so you assumed that's what all unschoolers look like.:) Maybe you hang out with people who DO curriculum and call it unschooling. I don't know. To me, unschooling is NOT schooling. In any form unless the child chooses it.
Every unschooling household looks completely different of course, so it's harder to say "here's what it looks like". It looks different for every unique family that embraces it. But the ideas/philosophies remain the same....that humans learn best when they are free to explore anything and everything that interests them, all the time. Lessons and teaching run the risk of damaging that natural process.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Ren Allen
~~ Lessons and teaching run the risk of damaging that natural process.~~
And this link to my good friend Laura's blog, highlights exactly this topic!!
http://sssmommy.blogspot.com/2009/06/calvin-hobbes-and-unschooling.html
She posted one of my fave Calvin and Hobbes strips. If you want to understand unschooling in a very short time, just read that.:)
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
And this link to my good friend Laura's blog, highlights exactly this topic!!
http://sssmommy.blogspot.com/2009/06/calvin-hobbes-and-unschooling.html
She posted one of my fave Calvin and Hobbes strips. If you want to understand unschooling in a very short time, just read that.:)
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
haecklers
Yeah, ok but here's what I don't get. In http://sandradodd.com/timestables she talks about getting her kid to fill in a multiplication chart to get money he wanted. So what gives? ARE You teaching or not? Or are there some kinds of teaching that are unschooler "cool" and others that get you yelled at?
Do you guys hang maps all over the walls, spend your free time reading books on math games to play with your kids to trick them into learning math, buy hundreds of dollars worth of stuff on foreign languages, etc. (not when they ask for it but "just in case") and sign them up for the latest reading "clubs" etc.?
I guess what I'm afraid of is I'll be doing what I think is "Unschooling" and my kids won't know stuff they need and everyone else who is making these grand promises about how the kids learn naturally is actually spending tons of time doing educational stuff just making it fun and saying it's child-led, when really the parents are spending hours a week reading books on how to teach your kids stuff in the "unschooling" way - which is just another method of teaching if you're still trying to get them to do multiplication and such. Ya know what I mean? Because I see my kid backsliding to below what she knew in kindergarten in math and writing, but she can tell you all about teen sit-coms and pop music.
Do you guys hang maps all over the walls, spend your free time reading books on math games to play with your kids to trick them into learning math, buy hundreds of dollars worth of stuff on foreign languages, etc. (not when they ask for it but "just in case") and sign them up for the latest reading "clubs" etc.?
I guess what I'm afraid of is I'll be doing what I think is "Unschooling" and my kids won't know stuff they need and everyone else who is making these grand promises about how the kids learn naturally is actually spending tons of time doing educational stuff just making it fun and saying it's child-led, when really the parents are spending hours a week reading books on how to teach your kids stuff in the "unschooling" way - which is just another method of teaching if you're still trying to get them to do multiplication and such. Ya know what I mean? Because I see my kid backsliding to below what she knew in kindergarten in math and writing, but she can tell you all about teen sit-coms and pop music.
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <meredith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote:
> >> The problem is, she was in public school for awhile and really hated it; now she doesn't want to do much at all that smacks of school and I fear its keeping her from even learning naturally.
> ***********************
>
> That's a common reaction to school and school at home. When Ray left school, at 13, he spent a solid six months not wanting to learn about much other than computer games and tv shows. Now, almost three years later, he can't imagine a day without learning - but very little of it looks like school learning.
>
> Natural learning *doesn't* look like school learning for the most part. Its swirly and complex and goes off on tangents, sometimes never to return. It looks like play, and cuddling on the couch, and conversations at midnight.
>
> Here's a place to start reading, if you're interested in learning more:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/puddle
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Yeah, ok but here's what I don't get. In http://sandradodd. com/timestables she talks about getting her kid to fill in a multiplication chart to get money he wanted.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
She did not MAKE them do it. She empowered them, showed them what they wanted. They did it because they wanted to learn it.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
So what gives? ARE You teaching or not? Or are there some kinds of teaching that are unschooler "cool" and others that get you yelled at?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Forget about teaching. Think in terms of learning, facilitating, strewing.
Have you read any of John Holt's books?
and last but not least....WHO is yelling at you???????????
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
She did not MAKE them do it. She empowered them, showed them what they wanted. They did it because they wanted to learn it.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
So what gives? ARE You teaching or not? Or are there some kinds of teaching that are unschooler "cool" and others that get you yelled at?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Forget about teaching. Think in terms of learning, facilitating, strewing.
Have you read any of John Holt's books?
and last but not least....WHO is yelling at you???????????
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
--- In [email protected], "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote:
~~So what gives? ARE You teaching or not? Or are there some kinds of teaching that are unschooler "cool" and others that get you yelled at? ~~
Who's yelling? So far I've seen some really nice posts giving good information.
~~ Do you guys hang maps all over the walls, spend your free time reading books on math games to play with your kids to trick them into learning math, buy hundreds of dollars worth of stuff on foreign languages, etc. (not when they ask for it but "just in case") and sign them up for the latest reading "clubs" etc.?~~
None of the above. My children hang maps if they want to, or I'll hang one if I feel like it (but I'm more inclined to hang art), we play games we like whether there is math in it or not (the idea is to have fun, not "trick" anyone, ever), I don't spend hundreds of dollars on any kind of program but I would on travel and my kids aren't members of any kind of clubs or programs, because they're not into that kind of thing right now. Could change tomorrow.
~~I guess what I'm afraid of is I'll be doing what I think is "Unschooling" and my kids won't know stuff they need and everyone else who is making these grand promises about how the kids learn naturally is actually spending tons of time doing educational stuff just making it fun and saying it's child-led, when really the parents are spending hours a week reading books on how to teach your kids stuff in the "unschooling" way - which is just another method of teaching if you're still trying to get them to do multiplication and such. Ya know what I mean?~~
Which is exactly why we don't do stuff in an "unschooling way", we actually live a life free of schooling and coerced lessons. All the time. Day in and day out. Have for many, many years with a 19y.o., 15y.o., 12y.o. and 8y.o. that are learning just fine without all that and who can all (with the exception of the 8y.o.) read and spell without lessons.
Your fears about unschooling are common though...many of us had to question and analyze the same things before we realized how we had the school blinders on!
I believe that multiplication and reading and all of those things we consider "basic" skills are really EASY to learn. School makes you believe otherwise but if a skill is "basic" it means that it is common in a society. What a "basic" skill is to an American will not be the same for another culture. Basic means common. Common means that it surrounds us and is used often. If something is common and used often then people will pick it up with ease, by living in the society in which they are born.
~~Because I see my kid backsliding to below what she knew in kindergarten in math and writing, but she can tell you all about teen sit-coms and pop music.~~
She can learn all the math and writing she'll ever need in life through teen sit-coms and pop music. Whatever interest a person has includes math and reading and all sorts of "basic" skills. You're still valuing schoolish looking skills above other skills.
There is no "backsliding" once you let go of comparing kids to other kids, which tells you nothing important.
The skills that help me succeed in my career today are all about makeup and fashion and art and color. Do you believe you can guess what your child will end up pursuing passionately later in life? If so, prepare her for THAT. But good luck, because no human being can possibly guess what another human needs for next year or in five years, much less ten or more years down the line.
The best preparation for a life well-lived (because that IS the ultimate goal, isn't it?) is to fill it with rich experiences and connections. Rich experiences don't come from one person extracting information or pushing another person to "learn". Rich experiences come from standing side by side with someone and digging into something fun or fascinating or moving or beautiful. THAT'S my goal as a parent...to make their days memorable. The learning happens as a side benefit.
Don't take my word for it (even with four children who are up-ending all that mythology about teaching and school) because there are literally hundreds of unschoolers (many of whom I've met and stayed with) who can tell you it works. But if you're looking for schoolish results, unschooling isn't the best path. If you're choosing to focus on living well and creating amazing memories instead of stressing about multiplication or reading, keep on reading.:)
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
>No, she wrote about a Mom offering allowance to a child and he calculated it all on his own. I'm not reading what you're reading at ALL. One example at that page is about a kid being curious about the times tables and asking his Mum to show him (Sandra) and the other example is about a Mom offering to pay allowance each week and double it if she missed and the child started calculating it all on his own (Kate...who also admitted she'd been worried previously and learned to let it go because of that incidence). In neither example was the parent making the child do anything.
> Yeah, ok but here's what I don't get. In http://sandradodd.com/timestables she talks about getting her kid to fill in a multiplication chart to get money he wanted.
~~So what gives? ARE You teaching or not? Or are there some kinds of teaching that are unschooler "cool" and others that get you yelled at? ~~
Who's yelling? So far I've seen some really nice posts giving good information.
~~ Do you guys hang maps all over the walls, spend your free time reading books on math games to play with your kids to trick them into learning math, buy hundreds of dollars worth of stuff on foreign languages, etc. (not when they ask for it but "just in case") and sign them up for the latest reading "clubs" etc.?~~
None of the above. My children hang maps if they want to, or I'll hang one if I feel like it (but I'm more inclined to hang art), we play games we like whether there is math in it or not (the idea is to have fun, not "trick" anyone, ever), I don't spend hundreds of dollars on any kind of program but I would on travel and my kids aren't members of any kind of clubs or programs, because they're not into that kind of thing right now. Could change tomorrow.
~~I guess what I'm afraid of is I'll be doing what I think is "Unschooling" and my kids won't know stuff they need and everyone else who is making these grand promises about how the kids learn naturally is actually spending tons of time doing educational stuff just making it fun and saying it's child-led, when really the parents are spending hours a week reading books on how to teach your kids stuff in the "unschooling" way - which is just another method of teaching if you're still trying to get them to do multiplication and such. Ya know what I mean?~~
Which is exactly why we don't do stuff in an "unschooling way", we actually live a life free of schooling and coerced lessons. All the time. Day in and day out. Have for many, many years with a 19y.o., 15y.o., 12y.o. and 8y.o. that are learning just fine without all that and who can all (with the exception of the 8y.o.) read and spell without lessons.
Your fears about unschooling are common though...many of us had to question and analyze the same things before we realized how we had the school blinders on!
I believe that multiplication and reading and all of those things we consider "basic" skills are really EASY to learn. School makes you believe otherwise but if a skill is "basic" it means that it is common in a society. What a "basic" skill is to an American will not be the same for another culture. Basic means common. Common means that it surrounds us and is used often. If something is common and used often then people will pick it up with ease, by living in the society in which they are born.
~~Because I see my kid backsliding to below what she knew in kindergarten in math and writing, but she can tell you all about teen sit-coms and pop music.~~
She can learn all the math and writing she'll ever need in life through teen sit-coms and pop music. Whatever interest a person has includes math and reading and all sorts of "basic" skills. You're still valuing schoolish looking skills above other skills.
There is no "backsliding" once you let go of comparing kids to other kids, which tells you nothing important.
The skills that help me succeed in my career today are all about makeup and fashion and art and color. Do you believe you can guess what your child will end up pursuing passionately later in life? If so, prepare her for THAT. But good luck, because no human being can possibly guess what another human needs for next year or in five years, much less ten or more years down the line.
The best preparation for a life well-lived (because that IS the ultimate goal, isn't it?) is to fill it with rich experiences and connections. Rich experiences don't come from one person extracting information or pushing another person to "learn". Rich experiences come from standing side by side with someone and digging into something fun or fascinating or moving or beautiful. THAT'S my goal as a parent...to make their days memorable. The learning happens as a side benefit.
Don't take my word for it (even with four children who are up-ending all that mythology about teaching and school) because there are literally hundreds of unschoolers (many of whom I've met and stayed with) who can tell you it works. But if you're looking for schoolish results, unschooling isn't the best path. If you're choosing to focus on living well and creating amazing memories instead of stressing about multiplication or reading, keep on reading.:)
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 19, 2009, at 10:28 PM, haecklers wrote:
money deal. If they'd said "Ew," she would have dropped it.
What's important to take away from that is that it was something that
schooled kids more likely than not *would* say "Ew," to but her kids
didn't. *They* saw it as a cool puzzle to fill in.
But for someone who is worried her kids won't learn the times table,
it can fill their heads with worries that they aren't getting their
kids to multiplication tables.
My daughter Kat never did a table. The majority of her math knowledge
came from living life and manipulating numbers to make them give her
the information she wanted. She wanted to know how much more she
needed to buy something. She wanted to know how long until. She
wanted to beat the boss and needed more power. She wanted to shrink a
picture to fit on the screen.
Allowance. Video games. Questions. Art programs. Math comes up in
life all the time. It's a tool to help us understand a situation
better. When it's used for it's intended purpose then it goes in as
painlessly and unconsciously as learning a native language.
If you go to:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
and scroll down the left side to the Math section, there are several
pages about learning math.
they were available and a part of my daughter's life.
Did you read books on language games to play with your kids to trick
them into learning English?
Or did you just use English and they used English and they got better
at it as a side effect of using it as a tool to get what they wanted?
Same thing works for math. And geography. And science.
One caution, though. There should be bits of everything strewn about
in their lives. *Not* to learn from. For them to have fun with. For
them to explore if it looks interesting. For them to get a taste of
something new.
Your deal is to provide access to what they're interested in as well
as things they might find interesting.
*If* you've been damaged by school, it might be hard to strew a video
about the solar system because it will bring back bad memories of
school. But unschooling kids worlds aren't divided into educational
and fun the way ours were. They're divided into interested and not
yet interested.
Once you see enjoying what life has to offer instead of opportunities
to learn, then you'll see how the question and answers could be
misleading. I do have foreign language stuff because Kat was
interested. We did one reading club but she thought the reward of
pizza was bogus for something she was doing for fun.
Instead of looking outward at what you can get into your kids, look
inward at your kids. See what interests them and fascinates them and
tickles them. Do more of that. Branch out from that to similar things
you think they might like.
is doing the opposite of making kids learn. If you take away making
them, what do you have left? Not make them. So they let their kids go
and do what they want.
Certainly part of unschooling is giving children the freedom to
explore. Don't interfere when they're happily engaged! But an equally
important part of unschooling is having swirly lives where they're
exposed to new fun things in the house and out of the house.
Once you stop trying to get stuff in and help them pull in what
they're reaching for and giving them access to more things they could
reach for, unschooling will go a lot smoother.
something for tests without truly understanding.
It could be she's protecting herself from activities that bring back
bad memories of drudgery and wrong answers and forced learning.
She will recover. Math is a useful tool. For now, you do the math for
her, sweetly, kindly, gently. Treat it like a broken leg that needs
healed. Provide positive associations with math. If you feel
negativity rising around her, let it go. Accept that she's still
recovering.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Yeah, ok but here's what I don't get. In http://sandradodd.com/It was an opportunity offered. It wasn't a do it or don't get the
> timestables she talks about getting her kid to fill in a
> multiplication chart to get money he wanted.
money deal. If they'd said "Ew," she would have dropped it.
What's important to take away from that is that it was something that
schooled kids more likely than not *would* say "Ew," to but her kids
didn't. *They* saw it as a cool puzzle to fill in.
But for someone who is worried her kids won't learn the times table,
it can fill their heads with worries that they aren't getting their
kids to multiplication tables.
My daughter Kat never did a table. The majority of her math knowledge
came from living life and manipulating numbers to make them give her
the information she wanted. She wanted to know how much more she
needed to buy something. She wanted to know how long until. She
wanted to beat the boss and needed more power. She wanted to shrink a
picture to fit on the screen.
Allowance. Video games. Questions. Art programs. Math comes up in
life all the time. It's a tool to help us understand a situation
better. When it's used for it's intended purpose then it goes in as
painlessly and unconsciously as learning a native language.
If you go to:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
and scroll down the left side to the Math section, there are several
pages about learning math.
> Do you guys hang maps all over the walls,We have maps though they didn't get used a lot. What's important was
>
they were available and a part of my daughter's life.
> spend your free time reading books on math games to play with yourIck. Math is part of life.
> kids to trick them into learning math,
>
Did you read books on language games to play with your kids to trick
them into learning English?
Or did you just use English and they used English and they got better
at it as a side effect of using it as a tool to get what they wanted?
Same thing works for math. And geography. And science.
One caution, though. There should be bits of everything strewn about
in their lives. *Not* to learn from. For them to have fun with. For
them to explore if it looks interesting. For them to get a taste of
something new.
Your deal is to provide access to what they're interested in as well
as things they might find interesting.
*If* you've been damaged by school, it might be hard to strew a video
about the solar system because it will bring back bad memories of
school. But unschooling kids worlds aren't divided into educational
and fun the way ours were. They're divided into interested and not
yet interested.
> buy hundreds of dollars worth of stuff on foreign languages, etc.Do your kids want to do any of that stuff?
> (not when they ask for it but "just in case") and sign them up for
> the latest reading "clubs" etc.?
>
Once you see enjoying what life has to offer instead of opportunities
to learn, then you'll see how the question and answers could be
misleading. I do have foreign language stuff because Kat was
interested. We did one reading club but she thought the reward of
pizza was bogus for something she was doing for fun.
Instead of looking outward at what you can get into your kids, look
inward at your kids. See what interests them and fascinates them and
tickles them. Do more of that. Branch out from that to similar things
you think they might like.
> I guess what I'm afraid of is I'll be doing what I think isI think the sticking point for many is that people think unschooling
> "Unschooling" and my kids won't know stuff they need and everyone
> else who is making these grand promises about how the kids learn
> naturally is actually spending tons of time doing educational stuff
>
is doing the opposite of making kids learn. If you take away making
them, what do you have left? Not make them. So they let their kids go
and do what they want.
Certainly part of unschooling is giving children the freedom to
explore. Don't interfere when they're happily engaged! But an equally
important part of unschooling is having swirly lives where they're
exposed to new fun things in the house and out of the house.
Once you stop trying to get stuff in and help them pull in what
they're reaching for and giving them access to more things they could
reach for, unschooling will go a lot smoother.
> Because I see my kid backsliding to below what she knew inIt could be she never learned it. What she did was learn to spit back
> kindergarten in math and writing, but she can tell you all about
> teen sit-coms and pop music.
>
something for tests without truly understanding.
It could be she's protecting herself from activities that bring back
bad memories of drudgery and wrong answers and forced learning.
She will recover. Math is a useful tool. For now, you do the math for
her, sweetly, kindly, gently. Treat it like a broken leg that needs
healed. Provide positive associations with math. If you feel
negativity rising around her, let it go. Accept that she's still
recovering.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
haecklers
OK that makes total sense. Thank you. And I see what you mean.
Right now she's transitioning from "I'm going to be a pop star" which frustrated me because the lessons were expensive and she never did her practice the music teacher gave her so didn't really progress much (except maybe to learning that being a pop star is more work than she wants to do!) to being obsessed with Taekwondo - she bought 9 books on it at a local thrift store and read one on the way home and has lessons 4 times a week. I doubt her interest will stay with taekwondo for long because so far she changes obsessions about once a year, but if it did "stick" she could open a school like her teacher is doing now, and what she'd need to know would be the taekwondo stuff, with hardly any "science" or "math" other than what she'd be using. And she'll always know she can break a board, flip a grown-up and be fierce. That's pretty cool stuff.
So you're the "normal" for homeschooling then? Because I do read Holt but the books by him I pick up are all about how to use life to teach kids stuff, and the emphasis is on teaching. I feel sneaky getting a board game on the states or presidents and pretending I want to play it because it will be "fun" to get them to learn that stuff. I'd rather be honest and just tell them I'd like them to know whatever because it's useful.
You and Faith and some others say even that isn't unschooling, so is there a name for the people who bend over backwards to find and do all the "fun" educational stuff, where the goal is still making sure their kids are learning stuff? Would that be relaxed homeschooling (I don't see how it can be relaxed when the parents have to put so much work into it!)? I'm not usually into labels but for the sake of this conversation it seems like it would be very useful to be able to differentiate.
I was thinking about this last night after my post (I hope I didn't sound mean, I'm just frustrated at trying to figure this out). I really feel that I don't have a choice in the matter. I can see that trying to force learning on an unwilling pupil isn't going to work nor will it stick. Also I'm too honest with my kids to be getting up hours earlier in the morning to find "fun" activities that will reinforce their math skills or get them to learn something. The traits I want for them the most are for them to be able to know themselves, know what they want, and live a full life, with many and varied interests.
Right now she's transitioning from "I'm going to be a pop star" which frustrated me because the lessons were expensive and she never did her practice the music teacher gave her so didn't really progress much (except maybe to learning that being a pop star is more work than she wants to do!) to being obsessed with Taekwondo - she bought 9 books on it at a local thrift store and read one on the way home and has lessons 4 times a week. I doubt her interest will stay with taekwondo for long because so far she changes obsessions about once a year, but if it did "stick" she could open a school like her teacher is doing now, and what she'd need to know would be the taekwondo stuff, with hardly any "science" or "math" other than what she'd be using. And she'll always know she can break a board, flip a grown-up and be fierce. That's pretty cool stuff.
So you're the "normal" for homeschooling then? Because I do read Holt but the books by him I pick up are all about how to use life to teach kids stuff, and the emphasis is on teaching. I feel sneaky getting a board game on the states or presidents and pretending I want to play it because it will be "fun" to get them to learn that stuff. I'd rather be honest and just tell them I'd like them to know whatever because it's useful.
You and Faith and some others say even that isn't unschooling, so is there a name for the people who bend over backwards to find and do all the "fun" educational stuff, where the goal is still making sure their kids are learning stuff? Would that be relaxed homeschooling (I don't see how it can be relaxed when the parents have to put so much work into it!)? I'm not usually into labels but for the sake of this conversation it seems like it would be very useful to be able to differentiate.
I was thinking about this last night after my post (I hope I didn't sound mean, I'm just frustrated at trying to figure this out). I really feel that I don't have a choice in the matter. I can see that trying to force learning on an unwilling pupil isn't going to work nor will it stick. Also I'm too honest with my kids to be getting up hours earlier in the morning to find "fun" activities that will reinforce their math skills or get them to learn something. The traits I want for them the most are for them to be able to know themselves, know what they want, and live a full life, with many and varied interests.
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, ok but here's what I don't get. In http://sandradodd.com/timestables she talks about getting her kid to fill in a multiplication chart to get money he wanted.
>
>
> No, she wrote about a Mom offering allowance to a child and he calculated it all on his own. I'm not reading what you're reading at ALL. One example at that page is about a kid being curious about the times tables and asking his Mum to show him (Sandra) and the other example is about a Mom offering to pay allowance each week and double it if she missed and the child started calculating it all on his own (Kate...who also admitted she'd been worried previously and learned to let it go because of that incidence). In neither example was the parent making the child do anything.
>
> ~~So what gives? ARE You teaching or not? Or are there some kinds of teaching that are unschooler "cool" and others that get you yelled at? ~~
>
> Who's yelling? So far I've seen some really nice posts giving good information.
>
> ~~ Do you guys hang maps all over the walls, spend your free time reading books on math games to play with your kids to trick them into learning math, buy hundreds of dollars worth of stuff on foreign languages, etc. (not when they ask for it but "just in case") and sign them up for the latest reading "clubs" etc.?~~
>
> None of the above. My children hang maps if they want to, or I'll hang one if I feel like it (but I'm more inclined to hang art), we play games we like whether there is math in it or not (the idea is to have fun, not "trick" anyone, ever), I don't spend hundreds of dollars on any kind of program but I would on travel and my kids aren't members of any kind of clubs or programs, because they're not into that kind of thing right now. Could change tomorrow.
>
> ~~I guess what I'm afraid of is I'll be doing what I think is "Unschooling" and my kids won't know stuff they need and everyone else who is making these grand promises about how the kids learn naturally is actually spending tons of time doing educational stuff just making it fun and saying it's child-led, when really the parents are spending hours a week reading books on how to teach your kids stuff in the "unschooling" way - which is just another method of teaching if you're still trying to get them to do multiplication and such. Ya know what I mean?~~
>
>
> Which is exactly why we don't do stuff in an "unschooling way", we actually live a life free of schooling and coerced lessons. All the time. Day in and day out. Have for many, many years with a 19y.o., 15y.o., 12y.o. and 8y.o. that are learning just fine without all that and who can all (with the exception of the 8y.o.) read and spell without lessons.
>
> Your fears about unschooling are common though...many of us had to question and analyze the same things before we realized how we had the school blinders on!
>
> I believe that multiplication and reading and all of those things we consider "basic" skills are really EASY to learn. School makes you believe otherwise but if a skill is "basic" it means that it is common in a society. What a "basic" skill is to an American will not be the same for another culture. Basic means common. Common means that it surrounds us and is used often. If something is common and used often then people will pick it up with ease, by living in the society in which they are born.
>
>
> ~~Because I see my kid backsliding to below what she knew in kindergarten in math and writing, but she can tell you all about teen sit-coms and pop music.~~
>
> She can learn all the math and writing she'll ever need in life through teen sit-coms and pop music. Whatever interest a person has includes math and reading and all sorts of "basic" skills. You're still valuing schoolish looking skills above other skills.
>
> There is no "backsliding" once you let go of comparing kids to other kids, which tells you nothing important.
>
> The skills that help me succeed in my career today are all about makeup and fashion and art and color. Do you believe you can guess what your child will end up pursuing passionately later in life? If so, prepare her for THAT. But good luck, because no human being can possibly guess what another human needs for next year or in five years, much less ten or more years down the line.
>
> The best preparation for a life well-lived (because that IS the ultimate goal, isn't it?) is to fill it with rich experiences and connections. Rich experiences don't come from one person extracting information or pushing another person to "learn". Rich experiences come from standing side by side with someone and digging into something fun or fascinating or moving or beautiful. THAT'S my goal as a parent...to make their days memorable. The learning happens as a side benefit.
>
> Don't take my word for it (even with four children who are up-ending all that mythology about teaching and school) because there are literally hundreds of unschoolers (many of whom I've met and stayed with) who can tell you it works. But if you're looking for schoolish results, unschooling isn't the best path. If you're choosing to focus on living well and creating amazing memories instead of stressing about multiplication or reading, keep on reading.:)
>
>
>
> Ren
> radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
>
swissarmy_wife
--- In [email protected], "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote:
=====================================================================
If the kids are interested in joining a club... then they do. I imagine one of my children will like a book club But right now, none of them enjoy books much at all. Except Phoenix. He's one. He likes to rip them, a lot. <G>
Heather
www.swissarmywife.net
=====================================================================
>******No one was "getting her kid" to fill in the chart. She was offering the chart as a tool for calculating how much money he could make. In a similar way one might offer a calculator. There was no force or coercion. The chart could have been stopped as easy as it was started. The kids were learning, but no one was teaching.
> Yeah, ok but here's what I don't get. In http://sandradodd.com/timestables she talks about getting her kid to fill in a multiplication chart to get money he wanted.
=====================================================================
>******Well, I can only speak for me. We have a human body poster in the bathroom hanging over the toilet. This gets a LOT of use with 3 boys standing several times a day. They REALLY like it. One thing I have is a giant white board in the dining room. I have the alphabet and numbers on it. I also have there bank account registers written on it. Milo is 4, he really likes to write and type but often forgets letters so it's easy for me to point to the letter he needs. I can also write out sentences he wants to type out instead of spelling them one letter at a time. We also write plans on it. That has more to do with my goldfish like memory though. Otherwise my house looks like any other house. Just messier since there's a lot of action going on day to day
> Do you guys hang maps all over the walls, spend your free time reading books on math games to play with your kids to trick them into learning math, buy hundreds of dollars worth of stuff on foreign languages, etc. (not when they ask for it but "just in case") and sign them up for the latest reading "clubs" etc.?
If the kids are interested in joining a club... then they do. I imagine one of my children will like a book club But right now, none of them enjoy books much at all. Except Phoenix. He's one. He likes to rip them, a lot. <G>
Heather
www.swissarmywife.net
=====================================================================
swissarmy_wife
Would that be relaxed homeschooling (I don't see how it can be relaxed when the parents have to put so much work into it!)?
******LOL Ain't that the truth!
Heather
www.swissarmywife.net
========================================================================
******LOL Ain't that the truth!
Heather
www.swissarmywife.net
========================================================================
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 20, 2009, at 7:12 AM, haecklers wrote:
and the lessons are their practice. Let the lessons be for them to
get out of it what they want rather than for you to get them where
you think the lessons could take them.
They *are* learning but not just what they're supposed to learn.
They're learning more about themselves and teaching styles and what
they enjoy and what feels right to them.
You can ask if there's anything specific you can do to help make
practice easier but let her own the experience.
obsessions by the time she goes out into the world? And what she
learns in the obsessions won't be just about that thing. She'll be
gathering skills and knowledge that will apply to other things.
unschooling are applied to family life also, not just the academic part.
wrote. The beginning books were all about how to improve schools. By
the end he'd given up and accepted that forced learning interfered
with real learning.
There's a list in chronological order here:
http://sandradodd.com/johnholt
What if they are a bit intrigued by the states and presidents and you
withhold a fun way to explore?
What if they wanted to explore Pokemon but you couldn't muster the
excitement for the game?
Unschooling isn't for you! It's for them :-) (Though lots of parents
find they benefit greatly as a side effect of unschooling!)
That said, most educational games felt false to me so we didn't play
them much. But she learned anyway. And not even because I said it
would be useful to know. She learned because the information is in
her life and it's already inherently useful!
States and presidents will come up in a rich life because they're
part of life. You don't need to go specifically looking for presidents.
But it helps to let go of the fear that such things are boring.
School may have made them boring for you. It could be they're not an
interest for your kids right now. But it won't hurt to strew funny
books about the presidents in the bathroom. It won't hurt to show
them episodes of Histeria! because they're funny not because they're
about history.
about games and fun ways to be educational. It's about finding ways
to do the subjects in ways the kids enjoy.
In my early years playing around with homeschooling ways, yes, I
found all those ways a *lot* of work. Work to find things. Work to
get her engaged. Disappointment when she turned her nose up at
something I'd put time and money and effort into. There was nothing
relaxing about it.
rich lives in a supportive environment.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Right now she's transitioning from "I'm going to be a pop star"It helps *lots* to assume they won't practice outside of the class
> which frustrated me because the lessons were expensive and she
> never did her practice the music teacher gave her so didn't really
> progress much
and the lessons are their practice. Let the lessons be for them to
get out of it what they want rather than for you to get them where
you think the lessons could take them.
They *are* learning but not just what they're supposed to learn.
They're learning more about themselves and teaching styles and what
they enjoy and what feels right to them.
You can ask if there's anything specific you can do to help make
practice easier but let her own the experience.
> I doubt her interest will stay with taekwondo for long because soAnd nothing wrong with that! How cool is it to have had a dozen
> far she changes obsessions about once a year
>
obsessions by the time she goes out into the world? And what she
learns in the obsessions won't be just about that thing. She'll be
gathering skills and knowledge that will apply to other things.
> o you're the "normal" for homeschooling then?The list is about radical unschooling where the principles of
>
unschooling are applied to family life also, not just the academic part.
> Because I do read Holt but the books by him I pick up are all aboutJohn Holt's understanding evolved and progressed as the observed and
> how to use life to teach kids stuff,
>
wrote. The beginning books were all about how to improve schools. By
the end he'd given up and accepted that forced learning interfered
with real learning.
There's a list in chronological order here:
http://sandradodd.com/johnholt
> feel sneaky getting a board game on the states or presidents andBut what if they don't find it useful?
> pretending I want to play it because it will be "fun" to get them
> to learn that stuff. I'd rather be honest and just tell them I'd
> like them to know whatever because it's useful.
>
What if they are a bit intrigued by the states and presidents and you
withhold a fun way to explore?
What if they wanted to explore Pokemon but you couldn't muster the
excitement for the game?
Unschooling isn't for you! It's for them :-) (Though lots of parents
find they benefit greatly as a side effect of unschooling!)
That said, most educational games felt false to me so we didn't play
them much. But she learned anyway. And not even because I said it
would be useful to know. She learned because the information is in
her life and it's already inherently useful!
States and presidents will come up in a rich life because they're
part of life. You don't need to go specifically looking for presidents.
But it helps to let go of the fear that such things are boring.
School may have made them boring for you. It could be they're not an
interest for your kids right now. But it won't hurt to strew funny
books about the presidents in the bathroom. It won't hurt to show
them episodes of Histeria! because they're funny not because they're
about history.
> is there a name for the people who bend over backwards to find andEclectic. I think some don't shy away from curriculum so it's not all
> do all the "fun" educational stuff, where the goal is still making
> sure their kids are learning stuff?
>
about games and fun ways to be educational. It's about finding ways
to do the subjects in ways the kids enjoy.
In my early years playing around with homeschooling ways, yes, I
found all those ways a *lot* of work. Work to find things. Work to
get her engaged. Disappointment when she turned her nose up at
something I'd put time and money and effort into. There was nothing
relaxing about it.
> Also I'm too honest with my kids to be getting up hours earlier in*And* it isn't necessary. Kids will learn as a side effect of living
> the morning to find "fun" activities that will reinforce their math
> skills or get them to learn something.
>
rich lives in a supportive environment.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather
I find there is a lot of variety here locally too amongst people who
call themselves unschoolers. I am involved in organizing local
unschooling get togethers and have had lot of people showing up saying
they unschool with quite a variety of approaches. Most of them seem to
lead to disappointment and burnout.
I used to buy more "educational" stuff - some of it was okay but a lot
was ignored so I learned. I now look for fun and interesting stuff and
experiences that might interest my kids to offer(though often now they
are the ones finding them on their own), and only think about what
category it might fit into after I sit down to write our reports for the
state. My son fairly recently came to me with a list of 20 things he
wanted to do and/or get. We have followed through on about half so far,
and some he isn't interested in anymore - a midi keyboard(played a lot
for awhile, has set it aside for now), visiting a martial arts
class(decided not to sign up), mountain bike(he rides daily), Get a
job(he starts next week), and many other things. He paid for the
keyboard and bike mostly on his own.
You can be any kind of homeschooler and call yourself an unschooler and
obviously no one can stop you - but I suggest giving the parents on this
list more than one chance, as they are pretty darn smart, and if you
consider their advice your life just might become about 1000 times
better!! And your kids happy and learning more deeply. And your
relationships with your kids will improve beyond recognition.
Heather (in NY)
haecklers wrote:
call themselves unschoolers. I am involved in organizing local
unschooling get togethers and have had lot of people showing up saying
they unschool with quite a variety of approaches. Most of them seem to
lead to disappointment and burnout.
I used to buy more "educational" stuff - some of it was okay but a lot
was ignored so I learned. I now look for fun and interesting stuff and
experiences that might interest my kids to offer(though often now they
are the ones finding them on their own), and only think about what
category it might fit into after I sit down to write our reports for the
state. My son fairly recently came to me with a list of 20 things he
wanted to do and/or get. We have followed through on about half so far,
and some he isn't interested in anymore - a midi keyboard(played a lot
for awhile, has set it aside for now), visiting a martial arts
class(decided not to sign up), mountain bike(he rides daily), Get a
job(he starts next week), and many other things. He paid for the
keyboard and bike mostly on his own.
You can be any kind of homeschooler and call yourself an unschooler and
obviously no one can stop you - but I suggest giving the parents on this
list more than one chance, as they are pretty darn smart, and if you
consider their advice your life just might become about 1000 times
better!! And your kids happy and learning more deeply. And your
relationships with your kids will improve beyond recognition.
Heather (in NY)
haecklers wrote:
>
>
> Well, everyone I meet locally who says they unschool actually spend a
> great deal of time doing educational activities and they buy TONS of
> educational stuff - some to have around in case their kids want it but
> a lot of it because the parents hope their kids will do it. They tell
> me they're unschooling and I think "Wow, am I being lazy? I mostly let
> the kids play and do things they want to do". We do a lot together,
> too, but it's stuff they want to do.
>
> So on the spectrum for unschoolers, do you think this group represents
> the far extreme of unschooling or the typical unschooler, and maybe
> I've only been meeting unschoolers who are on the "schooling" side of
> the spectrum? (I do live in a high-achieving area.)
>
> _
N CONFER
LOL! Oh, this too funny.
Yes, we have meetings and try to figure out how to trick new unschoolers into keeping their children ignorant. :)
Yes, there were maps on the wall here. Yes, there was also a map of the US with the electoral college numbers. A timeline of the Presidents. And a poster of a local sunken ship. And all kinds of art work from DD. And even a times tables poster. What else? Oh, pretty much picture all the walls covered with stuff a decorator would never choose. :)
But it was all put there as things came up. Elections or news or interests or questions.
Here's another story for you.
DD is the younger of my two children. DS read independently before her and by the time DD was almost-6, she was bitter!!! She marched up to me one day and announced: "Everyone in the world can read except me. I want to know how to read now!"
Oh. I was basically stunned. I thought she was reading just fine. Beginning to pick out words, etc. But she was not satisfied! She wanted a textbook and that was final! So we went online and looked at a number of choices. You know there are a ton. And we ended up buying your choice -- 100 easy lessons.
Turns out she didn't need the first third of the book because she already read some. She did the middle third and then could read on her own. Which was the point, it turned out. And so we never did the last third but she has pretty much lived at the library ever since. :)
But do you see the difference? I didn't suggest that textbook or any textbook. I didn't schedule the times she would do the reading in the textbook. I didn't say how much of it she should do or that she needed to finish it.
She had a need and I tried to help her reach her goal. And she did.
Every map and poster and activity and thing that might look schoolish from the outside has a similar story behind it here.
Except for poor DS. He had to endure my learning curve early on -- I searched through our state's standards and made flash cards and all kinds of nonsense for about the first 6 months of our hsing. Shudder! :)
But he survived and both he and DD are wonderful teens now. DD has finished the online courses she chose to do the past couple of years and has decided she wants to go to the public high school next fall. (DH is not thrilled but we are trying to be supportive.) DS has his own interests -- reads online incessantly, all sorts of things, games and works out and eats (I'm thinking his Tae Kwon Do coach should subsidize his food bill :) ). He has no interest in institutional schooling.
I think they are both at a wonderful age! They don't need to have anything figured out (although DD is a planner) and they are enjoying themselves with their chosen interests and friends and are growing and learning. But not because I insisted on any of it. I think they are happy and positive kids (but don't get DS started on politics -- we have raised a skeptic, if not a cynic . . . ) because they are given the time to figure themselves out and didn't, and still don't, have my agenda imposed on them. Or the neighbors'.
Unschooling is about letting go of a lot of the worries about keeping up and being in step with all the other kids and families. It's about a lot of things. And it's not for everyone. But if anecdotes help, take mine and add them to the pile. :)
Nance
I guess what I'm afraid of is I'll be doing what I think is "Unschooling" and my kids won't know stuff they need and everyone else who is making these grand promises about how the kids learn naturally is actually spending tons of time doing educational stuff just making it fun and saying it's child-led, when really the parents are spending hours a week reading books on how to teach your kids stuff in the "unschooling" way - which is just another method of teaching if you're still trying to get them to do multiplication and such. Ya know what I mean? Because I see my kid backsliding to below what she knew in kindergarten in math and writing, but she can tell you all about teen sit-coms and pop music.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes, we have meetings and try to figure out how to trick new unschoolers into keeping their children ignorant. :)
Yes, there were maps on the wall here. Yes, there was also a map of the US with the electoral college numbers. A timeline of the Presidents. And a poster of a local sunken ship. And all kinds of art work from DD. And even a times tables poster. What else? Oh, pretty much picture all the walls covered with stuff a decorator would never choose. :)
But it was all put there as things came up. Elections or news or interests or questions.
Here's another story for you.
DD is the younger of my two children. DS read independently before her and by the time DD was almost-6, she was bitter!!! She marched up to me one day and announced: "Everyone in the world can read except me. I want to know how to read now!"
Oh. I was basically stunned. I thought she was reading just fine. Beginning to pick out words, etc. But she was not satisfied! She wanted a textbook and that was final! So we went online and looked at a number of choices. You know there are a ton. And we ended up buying your choice -- 100 easy lessons.
Turns out she didn't need the first third of the book because she already read some. She did the middle third and then could read on her own. Which was the point, it turned out. And so we never did the last third but she has pretty much lived at the library ever since. :)
But do you see the difference? I didn't suggest that textbook or any textbook. I didn't schedule the times she would do the reading in the textbook. I didn't say how much of it she should do or that she needed to finish it.
She had a need and I tried to help her reach her goal. And she did.
Every map and poster and activity and thing that might look schoolish from the outside has a similar story behind it here.
Except for poor DS. He had to endure my learning curve early on -- I searched through our state's standards and made flash cards and all kinds of nonsense for about the first 6 months of our hsing. Shudder! :)
But he survived and both he and DD are wonderful teens now. DD has finished the online courses she chose to do the past couple of years and has decided she wants to go to the public high school next fall. (DH is not thrilled but we are trying to be supportive.) DS has his own interests -- reads online incessantly, all sorts of things, games and works out and eats (I'm thinking his Tae Kwon Do coach should subsidize his food bill :) ). He has no interest in institutional schooling.
I think they are both at a wonderful age! They don't need to have anything figured out (although DD is a planner) and they are enjoying themselves with their chosen interests and friends and are growing and learning. But not because I insisted on any of it. I think they are happy and positive kids (but don't get DS started on politics -- we have raised a skeptic, if not a cynic . . . ) because they are given the time to figure themselves out and didn't, and still don't, have my agenda imposed on them. Or the neighbors'.
Unschooling is about letting go of a lot of the worries about keeping up and being in step with all the other kids and families. It's about a lot of things. And it's not for everyone. But if anecdotes help, take mine and add them to the pile. :)
Nance
I guess what I'm afraid of is I'll be doing what I think is "Unschooling" and my kids won't know stuff they need and everyone else who is making these grand promises about how the kids learn naturally is actually spending tons of time doing educational stuff just making it fun and saying it's child-led, when really the parents are spending hours a week reading books on how to teach your kids stuff in the "unschooling" way - which is just another method of teaching if you're still trying to get them to do multiplication and such. Ya know what I mean? Because I see my kid backsliding to below what she knew in kindergarten in math and writing, but she can tell you all about teen sit-coms and pop music.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
I saw my name mentioned as I was perusing this thread so i felt like I
should get on a real computer and add my two cents.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: Right now she's transitioning from "I'm going to be a pop star" which
frustrated me because the lessons were expensive and she never did her
practice the music teacher gave her so didn't really progress much (except
maybe to learning that being a pop star is more work than she wants to do!)
to being obsessed with Taekwondo - she bought 9 books on it at a local
thrift store and read one on the way home and has lessons 4 times a week. I
doubt her interest will stay with taekwondo for long because so far she
changes obsessions about once a year, but if it did "stick" she could open a
school like her teacher is doing now, and what she'd need to know would be
the taekwondo stuff, with hardly any "science" or "math" other than what
she'd be using. And she'll always know she can break a board, flip a
grown-up and be fierce. That's pretty cool stuff.
*** Did she enjoy the pop star classes? Learning that being a pop star is
more work than she wanted to put in (at this point in her life) is a really
important thing. I am not sure how old your child/ren is/are but a year is a
pretty long time to hang on to a passion. My kids change passions
frequently. Some last longer than others (gymnastic, theater, Pokemon) and
Others are short lived (horseback riding, webkinz, baseball). Sometimes my
kids think they would like to try some and are uber excited but then when
they try it it doesn't float their boat. That happens to me as well. I have
had passions that lasted for years (midwifery) and things that I have been
passionate for a short time (cooking) and otehr things I tried and didn't
like. If you look for the positive you will find something cool in
everything your kids do.
"with hardly any "science" or "math" other than what she'd be using. " I am
unsure what you mean. Why would she need science or math that she wouldn't
be using?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: So you're the "normal" for homeschooling then? Because I do read Holt
but the books by him I pick up are all about how to use life to teach kids
stuff, and the emphasis is on teaching. I feel sneaky getting a board game
on the states or presidents and pretending I want to play it because it will
be "fun" to get them to learn that stuff. I'd rather be honest and just tell
them I'd like them to know whatever because it's useful.
*** I believe you were already direct to Holt's chornological bibilography.
I don't get out board games (or anything) with a goal besides having fun in
mind. We play bananagrams because its fun not because I want them to spell
better or work on logica problems. We paly video games for pure joy rather
than with an agenda. Sure they learn alot from them but that's not *why* we
do them. Right now my son is playing a lot of Saint's Row2. He loves to work
in the chop shop fixing the cars up. He is learning about color scheme,
purchasing, loigcal problem solving and many other things. Math, map skills,
eye to hand condination, reading and word recognition, etc. But I don't
discuss those things with him, he just has fun.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: You and Faith and some others say even that isn't unschooling, so is
there a name for the people who bend over backwards to find and do all the
"fun" educational stuff, where the goal is still making sure their kids are
learning stuff? Would that be relaxed homeschooling (I don't see how it can
be relaxed when the parents have to put so much work into it!)? I'm not
usually into labels but for the sake of this conversation it seems like it
would be very useful to be able to differentiate.
***I am glad I said that because it isn't. That is sneaky and I don't think
that deception brings families closer. If your goal is to have your child
learn X, Y, Z then do what you need to do to get there. But it your goal is
to unschool and be respectful and loving family then coercion, deception and
force isn't goign to work well. I bend over backwards to bring the things
that bring joy into my childrens lives. This is their life, the one chance
they have to have a happy childhood.
I am looking around in my oldest (12) daughter's room (I am using her
computer). I look at what she has in her space. It looks like a fairly
typical kids room, bed, dresser, shelves and a desk. She has a computer,
printer and a web cam. She hasinternet acess and frequently uses facebook,
Gaia, skype and a few other sites. She has books, both fiction and
non-fiction. Predominately fiction. She has shelves of special things. She
has posters she's made up on her walls. You wouldn't know if she went to
school or homeschooled or unschooled by her room. It isn't about how it
looks, its about how I relate to her about her stuff. I don't limit her
internet acess or computer usage. She is on there a lot. She is a writer and
works on her novel for several hours daily (on and off). I am there to hel
if she has questions about anything. I don't require her to use her things
in any certain way. She has no required reading yet reads frequently and
enjoys it. We have a closet downstairs that contains board games, dvds,
video games and such. She is free to pick and chose from any or none. If she
wants to play a gmae I am there to play one with her. If I want to play a
gmae I migth ask her to join me if she wants, no agenda just fun.
It's hard for many people to do but take school out of the equation. There
is no body of knowledge that everyone *HAS* to have. S/he is not behind,
s/he is absolute exactly where s/he needs to be right now.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I was thinking about this last night after my post (I hope I didn't sound
mean, I'm just frustrated at trying to figure this out). I really feel that
I don't have a choice in the matter. I can see that trying to force learning
on an unwilling pupil isn't going to work nor will it stick. Also I'm too
honest with my kids to be getting up hours earlier in the morning to find
"fun" activities that will reinforce their math skills or get them to learn
something. The traits I want for them the most are for them to be able to
know themselves, know what they want, and live a full life, with many and
varied interests.
*** Great, I am gald you are honest with your kids, that's a great start.
Instead of thinging in terms of what *you* want for htem, figure out who
they are and how you can embrace that, right now at this moment. Are you who
you were 5 years ago, 10 years ago, when you were 12? let them be themselves
with no agenda to develope into anything or anyone except themselves.
What are math skills? Are they seperate from life?
Here is my take on this: If somthing is so important that your child has to
know it for life then life will give opportunities to learn it. If life
isn't providing opportunities then perhaps it isn't as important as you
think.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
should get on a real computer and add my two cents.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: Right now she's transitioning from "I'm going to be a pop star" which
frustrated me because the lessons were expensive and she never did her
practice the music teacher gave her so didn't really progress much (except
maybe to learning that being a pop star is more work than she wants to do!)
to being obsessed with Taekwondo - she bought 9 books on it at a local
thrift store and read one on the way home and has lessons 4 times a week. I
doubt her interest will stay with taekwondo for long because so far she
changes obsessions about once a year, but if it did "stick" she could open a
school like her teacher is doing now, and what she'd need to know would be
the taekwondo stuff, with hardly any "science" or "math" other than what
she'd be using. And she'll always know she can break a board, flip a
grown-up and be fierce. That's pretty cool stuff.
*** Did she enjoy the pop star classes? Learning that being a pop star is
more work than she wanted to put in (at this point in her life) is a really
important thing. I am not sure how old your child/ren is/are but a year is a
pretty long time to hang on to a passion. My kids change passions
frequently. Some last longer than others (gymnastic, theater, Pokemon) and
Others are short lived (horseback riding, webkinz, baseball). Sometimes my
kids think they would like to try some and are uber excited but then when
they try it it doesn't float their boat. That happens to me as well. I have
had passions that lasted for years (midwifery) and things that I have been
passionate for a short time (cooking) and otehr things I tried and didn't
like. If you look for the positive you will find something cool in
everything your kids do.
"with hardly any "science" or "math" other than what she'd be using. " I am
unsure what you mean. Why would she need science or math that she wouldn't
be using?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: So you're the "normal" for homeschooling then? Because I do read Holt
but the books by him I pick up are all about how to use life to teach kids
stuff, and the emphasis is on teaching. I feel sneaky getting a board game
on the states or presidents and pretending I want to play it because it will
be "fun" to get them to learn that stuff. I'd rather be honest and just tell
them I'd like them to know whatever because it's useful.
*** I believe you were already direct to Holt's chornological bibilography.
I don't get out board games (or anything) with a goal besides having fun in
mind. We play bananagrams because its fun not because I want them to spell
better or work on logica problems. We paly video games for pure joy rather
than with an agenda. Sure they learn alot from them but that's not *why* we
do them. Right now my son is playing a lot of Saint's Row2. He loves to work
in the chop shop fixing the cars up. He is learning about color scheme,
purchasing, loigcal problem solving and many other things. Math, map skills,
eye to hand condination, reading and word recognition, etc. But I don't
discuss those things with him, he just has fun.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: You and Faith and some others say even that isn't unschooling, so is
there a name for the people who bend over backwards to find and do all the
"fun" educational stuff, where the goal is still making sure their kids are
learning stuff? Would that be relaxed homeschooling (I don't see how it can
be relaxed when the parents have to put so much work into it!)? I'm not
usually into labels but for the sake of this conversation it seems like it
would be very useful to be able to differentiate.
***I am glad I said that because it isn't. That is sneaky and I don't think
that deception brings families closer. If your goal is to have your child
learn X, Y, Z then do what you need to do to get there. But it your goal is
to unschool and be respectful and loving family then coercion, deception and
force isn't goign to work well. I bend over backwards to bring the things
that bring joy into my childrens lives. This is their life, the one chance
they have to have a happy childhood.
I am looking around in my oldest (12) daughter's room (I am using her
computer). I look at what she has in her space. It looks like a fairly
typical kids room, bed, dresser, shelves and a desk. She has a computer,
printer and a web cam. She hasinternet acess and frequently uses facebook,
Gaia, skype and a few other sites. She has books, both fiction and
non-fiction. Predominately fiction. She has shelves of special things. She
has posters she's made up on her walls. You wouldn't know if she went to
school or homeschooled or unschooled by her room. It isn't about how it
looks, its about how I relate to her about her stuff. I don't limit her
internet acess or computer usage. She is on there a lot. She is a writer and
works on her novel for several hours daily (on and off). I am there to hel
if she has questions about anything. I don't require her to use her things
in any certain way. She has no required reading yet reads frequently and
enjoys it. We have a closet downstairs that contains board games, dvds,
video games and such. She is free to pick and chose from any or none. If she
wants to play a gmae I am there to play one with her. If I want to play a
gmae I migth ask her to join me if she wants, no agenda just fun.
It's hard for many people to do but take school out of the equation. There
is no body of knowledge that everyone *HAS* to have. S/he is not behind,
s/he is absolute exactly where s/he needs to be right now.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I was thinking about this last night after my post (I hope I didn't sound
mean, I'm just frustrated at trying to figure this out). I really feel that
I don't have a choice in the matter. I can see that trying to force learning
on an unwilling pupil isn't going to work nor will it stick. Also I'm too
honest with my kids to be getting up hours earlier in the morning to find
"fun" activities that will reinforce their math skills or get them to learn
something. The traits I want for them the most are for them to be able to
know themselves, know what they want, and live a full life, with many and
varied interests.
*** Great, I am gald you are honest with your kids, that's a great start.
Instead of thinging in terms of what *you* want for htem, figure out who
they are and how you can embrace that, right now at this moment. Are you who
you were 5 years ago, 10 years ago, when you were 12? let them be themselves
with no agenda to develope into anything or anyone except themselves.
What are math skills? Are they seperate from life?
Here is my take on this: If somthing is so important that your child has to
know it for life then life will give opportunities to learn it. If life
isn't providing opportunities then perhaps it isn't as important as you
think.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
OP: Yeah, ok but here's what I don't get. In
http://sandradodd.com/timestables she talks about getting her kid to fill in
a multiplication chart to get money he wanted. So what gives? ARE You
teaching or not? Or are there some kinds of teaching that are unschooler
"cool" and others that get you yelled at?
**I think you got several really great answers about this one. Learning an
teaching are two different things.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: Do you guys hang maps all over the walls, spend your free time reading
books on math games to play with your kids to trick them into learning math,
buy hundreds of dollars worth of stuff on foreign languages, etc. (not when
they ask for it but "just in case") and sign them up for the latest reading
"clubs" etc.?
****I put things up on our walls that inspire me. That sometimes includes
maps, I love maps. My kids put there own things up on the walls that
inspired them or bring them joy.
I have never tricked my kids into "learning" anything. I have paid attention
to them and their needs/wants/desires and facilitated learning
opportunities. I did this not because I want my children to learn so much as
I want my children to have a rich full enjoyable life. Learning is a
byproduct of a life well lived.
Reading clubs may be something your kids love, mine don't really. The oldest
loves to be part of reading discussion groups so I have made that possible.
But the carrot on a stick reading enticements don't interest any of them. We
went to Borders the other day to buy me a book (LOL). We ended up coming
home with 3 books, 2 for my son and one for the family. My son (6) choose
his books, The Zombie Survival Guide and book 2 of the 39 Clues series. He
hasn't touch either yet. He might not ever read them (though I think he
will) but I support his interest in getting those specific books. We also
picked up a Ripley's Believe it or Not book. Everyone in our family loves
those. I am sure we will learn stuff from them but that isn't why I bought
them. Does that make sense?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I guess what I'm afraid of is I'll be doing what I think is "Unschooling"
and my kids won't know stuff they need and everyone else who is making these
grand promises about how the kids learn naturally is actually spending tons
of time doing educational stuff just making it fun and saying it's
child-led, when really the parents are spending hours a week reading books
on how to teach your kids stuff in the "unschooling" way - which is just
another method of teaching if you're still trying to get them to do
multiplication and such. Ya know what I mean? Because I see my kid
backsliding to below what she knew in kindergarten in math and writing, but
she can tell you all about teen sit-coms and pop music.
***Go to a conference! Seriously nothing hits home like seeing other people
that are living unschooling. It changed my life. It changed my perspective
(that and Diana Jenner's mp3 of her talk on perspectives
http://liveandlearnshop.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=109)
best 12 bucks I ever spent!
Where are you geographically? There are two conferences upcoming NEU in
August (up near Boston, MA) and Enjoy Life Unschooling conference in
September in Frederick, MD. Life
changing.
I am going to assume that she is between 8-12. That is pretty normal whether
a kid is schooled or not. A schooled kid may be able to spit out some
"facts" because that is what they are use to doing but really a pre-teen
girls heart is usally passionate about pre-teen girl things. And if you
breath, relax and open your mind as wide as you can you can see this
unlimited possiblities in this.
faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://sandradodd.com/timestables she talks about getting her kid to fill in
a multiplication chart to get money he wanted. So what gives? ARE You
teaching or not? Or are there some kinds of teaching that are unschooler
"cool" and others that get you yelled at?
**I think you got several really great answers about this one. Learning an
teaching are two different things.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
OP: Do you guys hang maps all over the walls, spend your free time reading
books on math games to play with your kids to trick them into learning math,
buy hundreds of dollars worth of stuff on foreign languages, etc. (not when
they ask for it but "just in case") and sign them up for the latest reading
"clubs" etc.?
****I put things up on our walls that inspire me. That sometimes includes
maps, I love maps. My kids put there own things up on the walls that
inspired them or bring them joy.
I have never tricked my kids into "learning" anything. I have paid attention
to them and their needs/wants/desires and facilitated learning
opportunities. I did this not because I want my children to learn so much as
I want my children to have a rich full enjoyable life. Learning is a
byproduct of a life well lived.
Reading clubs may be something your kids love, mine don't really. The oldest
loves to be part of reading discussion groups so I have made that possible.
But the carrot on a stick reading enticements don't interest any of them. We
went to Borders the other day to buy me a book (LOL). We ended up coming
home with 3 books, 2 for my son and one for the family. My son (6) choose
his books, The Zombie Survival Guide and book 2 of the 39 Clues series. He
hasn't touch either yet. He might not ever read them (though I think he
will) but I support his interest in getting those specific books. We also
picked up a Ripley's Believe it or Not book. Everyone in our family loves
those. I am sure we will learn stuff from them but that isn't why I bought
them. Does that make sense?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I guess what I'm afraid of is I'll be doing what I think is "Unschooling"
and my kids won't know stuff they need and everyone else who is making these
grand promises about how the kids learn naturally is actually spending tons
of time doing educational stuff just making it fun and saying it's
child-led, when really the parents are spending hours a week reading books
on how to teach your kids stuff in the "unschooling" way - which is just
another method of teaching if you're still trying to get them to do
multiplication and such. Ya know what I mean? Because I see my kid
backsliding to below what she knew in kindergarten in math and writing, but
she can tell you all about teen sit-coms and pop music.
***Go to a conference! Seriously nothing hits home like seeing other people
that are living unschooling. It changed my life. It changed my perspective
(that and Diana Jenner's mp3 of her talk on perspectives
http://liveandlearnshop.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=109)
best 12 bucks I ever spent!
Where are you geographically? There are two conferences upcoming NEU in
August (up near Boston, MA) and Enjoy Life Unschooling conference in
September in Frederick, MD. Life
changing.
I am going to assume that she is between 8-12. That is pretty normal whether
a kid is schooled or not. A schooled kid may be able to spit out some
"facts" because that is what they are use to doing but really a pre-teen
girls heart is usally passionate about pre-teen girl things. And if you
breath, relax and open your mind as wide as you can you can see this
unlimited possiblities in this.
faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
haecklers
Thanks Nance and everybody else, just what I needed. Hope you all can put up with my periods of losing confidence. That's what happens when parents were raised in an authoritarian way, I guess. My poor daughter has always suffered from my learning curve. At least she's strong and confident enough to stick up for herself.
haecklers
I'm near Philadelphia. I don't think Frederick is too far. I wanted to go to the conference in Michigan but things didn't work out, and the one in PA where John Taylor Gatto spoke looked cool, except I saw no activities that my son would enjoy. He's at a clingy age and resents doing things with me that bore him, which makes it hard.
>
> Where are you geographically? There are two conferences upcoming NEU in
> August (up near Boston, MA) and Enjoy Life Unschooling conference in
> September in Frederick, MD. Life
> changing.>
> faith
>
> --
> http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
> www.bearthmama.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Bunny Shank
fyi
Bold caps signify yelling.
k thnx bi
________________________________
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:53:08 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Hi New Member
Yeah, ok but here's what I don't get. In http://sandradodd. com/timestables she talks about getting her kid to fill in a multiplication chart to get money he wanted.
-=-=-=-=-=-= -
She did not MAKE them do it. She empowered them, showed them what they wanted. They did it because they wanted to learn it.
-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-
So what gives? ARE You teaching or not? Or are there some kinds of teaching that are unschooler "cool" and others that get you yelled at?
-=-=-=-=-=-= -=
Forget about teaching. Think in terms of learning, facilitating, strewing.
Have you read any of John Holt's books?
and last but not least....WHO is yelling at you????????? ??
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow. blogspot. com/
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/unschoolin gmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bold caps signify yelling.
k thnx bi
________________________________
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:53:08 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Hi New Member
Yeah, ok but here's what I don't get. In http://sandradodd. com/timestables she talks about getting her kid to fill in a multiplication chart to get money he wanted.
-=-=-=-=-=-= -
She did not MAKE them do it. She empowered them, showed them what they wanted. They did it because they wanted to learn it.
-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-
So what gives? ARE You teaching or not? Or are there some kinds of teaching that are unschooler "cool" and others that get you yelled at?
-=-=-=-=-=-= -=
Forget about teaching. Think in terms of learning, facilitating, strewing.
Have you read any of John Holt's books?
and last but not least....WHO is yelling at you????????? ??
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow. blogspot. com/
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/unschoolin gmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~***Go to a conference! Seriously nothing hits home like seeing other people that are living unschooling. It changed my life. ~~
I just want to second this advice. I think new folks should do whatever they can to make it out to a conference where they can sit with circles of parents that can share their fears, concerns, joys and experiences. There is nothing like that face-to-face support.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
I just want to second this advice. I think new folks should do whatever they can to make it out to a conference where they can sit with circles of parents that can share their fears, concerns, joys and experiences. There is nothing like that face-to-face support.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
fyi
Bold caps signify yelling.
k thnx bi
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
You need to go back and read all the posts in order.
The OP asked:
"So what gives? ARE You teaching or not? Or are there some kinds of teaching that
are unschooler "cool" and others that get you yelled at?"
No one had used any caps in any answer prior to that. The OP , like me, used caps ( no bold caps used)to enfasize words.
NO ( me not screaming ) one had "screamed at her, literally or by using bold caps.
By the way I did not use "bold" caps. Just caps.....
But anyways.....back to unschooling ( bold but not caps).
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bold caps signify yelling.
k thnx bi
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
You need to go back and read all the posts in order.
The OP asked:
"So what gives? ARE You teaching or not? Or are there some kinds of teaching that
are unschooler "cool" and others that get you yelled at?"
No one had used any caps in any answer prior to that. The OP , like me, used caps ( no bold caps used)to enfasize words.
NO ( me not screaming ) one had "screamed at her, literally or by using bold caps.
By the way I did not use "bold" caps. Just caps.....
But anyways.....back to unschooling ( bold but not caps).
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Dang the bold does not work.... guess I cannot scream at anyone on yahoo groups =P
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
>Nobody used bold caps to "yell" at anyone though. Nor did I read one post that was anything less than kind and thoughtful...from my pov anyway.
> fyi
> Bold caps signify yelling.
> k thnx bi
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Bunny Shank
You are right that no one used "bold".
I did read the posts in order.
It is supremely funny that you and the OP were writing about not yelling while yelling: "WHO is yelling at you??????"
:)
Whether someone "used" all caps to yell is not the point.
________________________________
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 4:09:57 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Hi New Member
fyi
Bold caps signify yelling.
k thnx bi
-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-
You need to go back and read all the posts in order.
The OP asked:
"So what gives? ARE You teaching or not? Or are there some kinds of teaching that
are unschooler "cool" and others that get you yelled at?"
No one had used any caps in any answer prior to that. The OP , like me, used caps ( no bold caps used)to enfasize words.
NO ( me not screaming ) one had "screamed at her, literally or by using bold caps.
By the way I did not use "bold" caps. Just caps.....
But anyways..... back to unschooling ( bold but not caps).
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow. blogspot. com/
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/unschoolin gmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I did read the posts in order.
It is supremely funny that you and the OP were writing about not yelling while yelling: "WHO is yelling at you??????"
:)
Whether someone "used" all caps to yell is not the point.
________________________________
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 4:09:57 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Hi New Member
fyi
Bold caps signify yelling.
k thnx bi
-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-
You need to go back and read all the posts in order.
The OP asked:
"So what gives? ARE You teaching or not? Or are there some kinds of teaching that
are unschooler "cool" and others that get you yelled at?"
No one had used any caps in any answer prior to that. The OP , like me, used caps ( no bold caps used)to enfasize words.
NO ( me not screaming ) one had "screamed at her, literally or by using bold caps.
By the way I did not use "bold" caps. Just caps.....
But anyways..... back to unschooling ( bold but not caps).
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow. blogspot. com/
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/unschoolin gmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~It is supremely funny that you and the OP were writing about not yelling while yelling: "WHO is yelling at you??????" ~~
That would not be considered "yelling" online. That is emphasizing one word.
~~Whether someone "used" all caps to yell is not the point.~~
Then what was your point? You gave everyone a "lesson" on the use of bold when nobody needed it. I'm not sure what the point is here. Let's stick to discussing unschooling.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
That would not be considered "yelling" online. That is emphasizing one word.
~~Whether someone "used" all caps to yell is not the point.~~
Then what was your point? You gave everyone a "lesson" on the use of bold when nobody needed it. I'm not sure what the point is here. Let's stick to discussing unschooling.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com