Re: [unschoolingbasics] needs and sugar was is an unschooling lifestyle...
Elissa
OK, I just want to announce early in my post that I am a little cranky. LOL
<< i know that alot of people on unschooling basics choose a much more lax style but this is what works for us and allows us to all be together and meet Everyones needs. Yours are important too.>>
2 lax , slack
lacking in rigor or strictness; "such lax and slipshod ways are no longer acceptable"; "lax in attending classes"; "slack in maintaining discipline"
3 indulgent , lax , lenient , soft
tolerant or lenient; "indulgent parents risk spoiling their children"; "procedures are lax and discipline is weak"; "too soft on the children"
Do you really want to label unschooling and unschoolers this way?
Of course our needs are important too. BUT! but but but..the children are little, they are new, they have NO CLUE how to navigate our world and society and relationships. So sometimes, their needs come before ours.
For example:
I need a nap. (although I just got up <g>) I could just inform my kids that I have needs also and I am going upstairs and it's MY TURN!! Things go a lot more smoothly if I say, "I'm exhausted, I really need to take a nap. Can I get you anything to eat or drink before I head up? Do you want to watch a movie? What can i help you with? "
So yes, in my opinion, their needs come first. I can wait, I'm a big girl.
<<We have so far always come to a consensus with the exception of ds wanting to eat sugar straight from the bowl. I just got rid of the sugar.>>
OMG, what do you put in your coffee?!?!?
So, what would have happened if you had let him eat sugar straight from the sugar bowl? Would he have started bouncing like a big rubber kid-ball against the walls and ceilings and eventually right out the window? (Think cartoons) Would he have immediately had all his teeth fall out onto the ground? Would have have gotten morbidly obese very suddenly like Eddie Murphy in the Nutty Professor?
Course not. Have you ever tried eating sugar straight from the bowl? To me it feels very strange, like a mouthful of sand but then all your salivary glands kick in and it turns to really wet sand. It's not swallowable and you cant chew it so you just have to sit there and wait for it to melt. It's pretty weird. So my guess is that a kid would try that a few times and then realize that it probably is better to eat sugar when it is IN something, like Ice cream or chocolate or skittles or cinnamon toast or my favorite, Coffee!
Ooh, I had an idea, if he really wants to eat sugar out of the bowl, give him some strawberries! Let him dip away! (Maybe give him his own sugar bowl so there aren't any crunchy pieces in the main one.)
<<i know that alot of people on unschooling basics choose a much more lax style but this is what works for us and allows us to all be together and meet Everyones needs. >>
Ya know, I think that it is great that this works for you. Anyone who wants to "tweak" unschooling is more that welcome. But I don't think that many people are coming to unschooling basics to learn about unschooling lite, or unschooling academics only or unschooling tweaked. I can go to any of a dozen low volume low member lists to get that. I come here for the basics of unschooling. So that's why I felt the need to respond to this poster, because I can go out my front door to find out how to take care of MY needs or hide the sugar bowl. I come here for alternatives.
Elissa, Unschooling Momma to Emily 15, and Max 9. Proud Momma to Zack, 21.
How is it that little children are so intelligent and men so stupid? It must be education that does it.
--Alexandre Dumas
In our process i have begun to insist on only a few things. 1. I have final say in health or safety matters. we will talk the issue whatever all the way through but in the end it is my choice. We have so far always come to a consensus with the exception of ds wanting to eat sugar straight from the bowl. I just got rid of the sugar.
2. Everyone must be respectful of others or take themselves out of the group. In the beginning I had to assist with the leaving a few times. But I just went with the struggling child and spent one on one time with them while talking about how its always easier to get
our private time needs met when we use our words and ask for it instead of doing something angry, mean or hurtful to someone else.
Those are my "tweaks" on the unschooling lifestyle and so far so good. i know that alot of people on unschooling basics choose a much more lax style but this is what works for us and allows us to all be together and meet Everyones needs. Yours are important too.
Rala
<< i know that alot of people on unschooling basics choose a much more lax style but this is what works for us and allows us to all be together and meet Everyones needs. Yours are important too.>>
2 lax , slack
lacking in rigor or strictness; "such lax and slipshod ways are no longer acceptable"; "lax in attending classes"; "slack in maintaining discipline"
3 indulgent , lax , lenient , soft
tolerant or lenient; "indulgent parents risk spoiling their children"; "procedures are lax and discipline is weak"; "too soft on the children"
Do you really want to label unschooling and unschoolers this way?
Of course our needs are important too. BUT! but but but..the children are little, they are new, they have NO CLUE how to navigate our world and society and relationships. So sometimes, their needs come before ours.
For example:
I need a nap. (although I just got up <g>) I could just inform my kids that I have needs also and I am going upstairs and it's MY TURN!! Things go a lot more smoothly if I say, "I'm exhausted, I really need to take a nap. Can I get you anything to eat or drink before I head up? Do you want to watch a movie? What can i help you with? "
So yes, in my opinion, their needs come first. I can wait, I'm a big girl.
<<We have so far always come to a consensus with the exception of ds wanting to eat sugar straight from the bowl. I just got rid of the sugar.>>
OMG, what do you put in your coffee?!?!?
So, what would have happened if you had let him eat sugar straight from the sugar bowl? Would he have started bouncing like a big rubber kid-ball against the walls and ceilings and eventually right out the window? (Think cartoons) Would he have immediately had all his teeth fall out onto the ground? Would have have gotten morbidly obese very suddenly like Eddie Murphy in the Nutty Professor?
Course not. Have you ever tried eating sugar straight from the bowl? To me it feels very strange, like a mouthful of sand but then all your salivary glands kick in and it turns to really wet sand. It's not swallowable and you cant chew it so you just have to sit there and wait for it to melt. It's pretty weird. So my guess is that a kid would try that a few times and then realize that it probably is better to eat sugar when it is IN something, like Ice cream or chocolate or skittles or cinnamon toast or my favorite, Coffee!
Ooh, I had an idea, if he really wants to eat sugar out of the bowl, give him some strawberries! Let him dip away! (Maybe give him his own sugar bowl so there aren't any crunchy pieces in the main one.)
<<i know that alot of people on unschooling basics choose a much more lax style but this is what works for us and allows us to all be together and meet Everyones needs. >>
Ya know, I think that it is great that this works for you. Anyone who wants to "tweak" unschooling is more that welcome. But I don't think that many people are coming to unschooling basics to learn about unschooling lite, or unschooling academics only or unschooling tweaked. I can go to any of a dozen low volume low member lists to get that. I come here for the basics of unschooling. So that's why I felt the need to respond to this poster, because I can go out my front door to find out how to take care of MY needs or hide the sugar bowl. I come here for alternatives.
Elissa, Unschooling Momma to Emily 15, and Max 9. Proud Momma to Zack, 21.
How is it that little children are so intelligent and men so stupid? It must be education that does it.
--Alexandre Dumas
In our process i have begun to insist on only a few things. 1. I have final say in health or safety matters. we will talk the issue whatever all the way through but in the end it is my choice. We have so far always come to a consensus with the exception of ds wanting to eat sugar straight from the bowl. I just got rid of the sugar.
2. Everyone must be respectful of others or take themselves out of the group. In the beginning I had to assist with the leaving a few times. But I just went with the struggling child and spent one on one time with them while talking about how its always easier to get
our private time needs met when we use our words and ask for it instead of doing something angry, mean or hurtful to someone else.
Those are my "tweaks" on the unschooling lifestyle and so far so good. i know that alot of people on unschooling basics choose a much more lax style but this is what works for us and allows us to all be together and meet Everyones needs. Yours are important too.
Rala
--- On Thu, 5/14/09, jennifercroce37 < jennifercroce37@... > wrote:
From: jennifercroce37 < jennifercroce37@... >
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Is an unschooling lifestyle possible given my circumstances?
To: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, May 14, 2009, 8:54 AM
Hi,
I have been doing a lot of research on unschooling and hope to transform our lifestyle and parenting to this philosophy. I am finding it very challenging due to being stuck in conventional parenting traps and family circumstances. I would appreciate constructive input and suggestions. Here is a brief explanation of my family.
I have two girls, they will be 7 and 3 in August. Like most siblings they are very different in regards to temperament and interests. My husband is in the process of establishing his own accounting practice and is a major workaholic so I am more or less a single parent most of the time due to his work schedule. I also run a home daycare 4 days a week. This has been a tremendous help for me in regards to personal growth and financial support.
I am trying very hard to say yes more often to my childrens' requests and letting go of my own needs and recognizing their's more often. I am also trying to look at everything as a choice rather than a need to get something done or accomplish something. I am trying to see the joy in spending more time with my children and really being with them than just around them. I truly want to embrace the unschooling lifestyle, but I have to be honest it is really, really difficult for me. I am seeing an increase in anger, tantrums and rudeness from my children when I try to be more open to letting them do and explore the things that interest them. I have a very difficult time accommodating both their needs/interests sinced they often conflict and I am often alone with them.
I am registered for the NE unschooling conference in August and have read Rue Kream's book and am planning to read Dayna Martin's book when it is published. I think the hardest thing for me is doing this alone and not having adequate time to recover from the stress of day to day life. I am beginning to think a true unschooling lifestyle isn't possible for my family and am ready to throw in the towel.
Thanks,
Jen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I think Rala that you are not fully getting unschooling.
Its not being more lax about parenting - It is acutally being MORE present.
No one here advocates leaving you kids alone to navigate the world.
Kids need a present and involved parent and they want guidance.
It is also not about NO rules but about priciples
Here are some good readings on it:
http://www.sandradodd.com/rules
http://sandradodd.com/attentiveparenting
http://sandradodd.com/pam/howto
http://sandradodd.com/help
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Its not being more lax about parenting - It is acutally being MORE present.
No one here advocates leaving you kids alone to navigate the world.
Kids need a present and involved parent and they want guidance.
It is also not about NO rules but about priciples
Here are some good readings on it:
http://www.sandradodd.com/rules
http://sandradodd.com/attentiveparenting
http://sandradodd.com/pam/howto
http://sandradodd.com/help
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rala Brubaker
Thank you Brian,
I have read a good selection of the suggestions already. We all must apply what we learn to the life we are personally leading.
Rala
I have read a good selection of the suggestions already. We all must apply what we learn to the life we are personally leading.
Rala
--- On Fri, 5/15/09, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] needs and sugar was is an unschooling lifestyle...
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 10:05 AM
I think Rala that you are not fully getting unschooling.
Its not being more lax about parenting - It is acutally being MORE present.
No one here advocates leaving you kids alone to navigate the world.
Kids need a present and involved parent and they want guidance.
It is also not about NO rules but about priciples
Here are some good readings on it:
http://www.sandrado dd.com/rules
http://sandradodd. com/attentivepar enting
http://sandradodd. com/pam/howto
http://sandradodd. com/help
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow. blogspot. com/
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/unschoolin gmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~In our process i have begun to insist on only a few things. 1. I have final say in health or safety matters.~~
No, you really don't.
It's a nice feeling to think that you can have any control over other human beings, but the truth is, people (even very little people) can and will decide for themselves. They might learn to get really sneaky eventually though, if they don't feel your "insists" are reasonable.
How old are your children? Because once you have some teens/grown-up kids it might be easier to understand how little control you really have at any time.
Better to base relationships on trust and respect, so they will WANT to come to you for advice.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
No, you really don't.
It's a nice feeling to think that you can have any control over other human beings, but the truth is, people (even very little people) can and will decide for themselves. They might learn to get really sneaky eventually though, if they don't feel your "insists" are reasonable.
How old are your children? Because once you have some teens/grown-up kids it might be easier to understand how little control you really have at any time.
Better to base relationships on trust and respect, so they will WANT to come to you for advice.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Faith Void
Alex gave a really great list of helpful articles. I am very curious
about your response. I find it really hard to read tone or intention
online. And I am just really not sure what you mean by your words
alone. Could you clarify?
I see a certain amount of truth in your words but they don't quite fit
with what Alex wrote. Sometimes writing it out and then rereading it
and then rewriting...lather rinse repeat. Will help you gain insight
on what is going on in your head.
Your wrote originally about taking sugar from your kids (if memory
serves). Alex, Dana and a few others responded about how that is
unkind and not helpful in creating a respectful trusting life for
anyone. It is unkind and likely hurting your relationships
You also wrote about how unschoolers who don't do things like that are
lax. And again got several great responses. When someone comments like
that, the words tell us that the person doesn't fully grasp the
concept of unschool. One of the main premise of unschooling is to be
present. Fully present and mindful, it would be challenging to be that
way and lax. It feels more like you are saying that unschoolers who
don't control their children and overly permissive. Is that what you
were saying? If so then that isn't what we do or how we live.
Unschooling may look like that to people who don't understand but that
is simply not true. It takes a lot of energy to remain mindful,
especially when your triggers from a mainstream upbringing are being
pushed.
Can you sit yourself down and figure out what is really bothering you
about the sugar issue? What is the worse that can happen? What are you
seeing and feeling when your son eats straight sugar?
My MIL loves to tell the story of her youngest child. MIL didn't allow
sugar, pretty much at all. She kept a small bit for coffee and special
baking. This worked ok for the older two that had little interest in
sweet foods. Along came the baby. She loved sweet things. She wanted
sugar. She would sneak into the cupboard and eat straight sugar
because besides fruit that was all that was available. They think this
is cute and funny. I don't. I don't ever want my kids to feel like
they need to sneak to get their needs met. If they want sweets we will
problem solve to met their needs. It seems by your words that you are
setting up a power struggle. You son can ignore his needs and give up
his power to you, he could sneak and learn that he needs to be
dishonest to get his needs met, he could feel bad about his needs, I
don't think any of us want our kids to feel this way. Especially when
there are other ways to solve the issue. The issue is your fear, I
need not involve your child at all.
Ok kids awake. Be well.
Faith
Faith
Sent from my iPhone
about your response. I find it really hard to read tone or intention
online. And I am just really not sure what you mean by your words
alone. Could you clarify?
I see a certain amount of truth in your words but they don't quite fit
with what Alex wrote. Sometimes writing it out and then rereading it
and then rewriting...lather rinse repeat. Will help you gain insight
on what is going on in your head.
Your wrote originally about taking sugar from your kids (if memory
serves). Alex, Dana and a few others responded about how that is
unkind and not helpful in creating a respectful trusting life for
anyone. It is unkind and likely hurting your relationships
You also wrote about how unschoolers who don't do things like that are
lax. And again got several great responses. When someone comments like
that, the words tell us that the person doesn't fully grasp the
concept of unschool. One of the main premise of unschooling is to be
present. Fully present and mindful, it would be challenging to be that
way and lax. It feels more like you are saying that unschoolers who
don't control their children and overly permissive. Is that what you
were saying? If so then that isn't what we do or how we live.
Unschooling may look like that to people who don't understand but that
is simply not true. It takes a lot of energy to remain mindful,
especially when your triggers from a mainstream upbringing are being
pushed.
Can you sit yourself down and figure out what is really bothering you
about the sugar issue? What is the worse that can happen? What are you
seeing and feeling when your son eats straight sugar?
My MIL loves to tell the story of her youngest child. MIL didn't allow
sugar, pretty much at all. She kept a small bit for coffee and special
baking. This worked ok for the older two that had little interest in
sweet foods. Along came the baby. She loved sweet things. She wanted
sugar. She would sneak into the cupboard and eat straight sugar
because besides fruit that was all that was available. They think this
is cute and funny. I don't. I don't ever want my kids to feel like
they need to sneak to get their needs met. If they want sweets we will
problem solve to met their needs. It seems by your words that you are
setting up a power struggle. You son can ignore his needs and give up
his power to you, he could sneak and learn that he needs to be
dishonest to get his needs met, he could feel bad about his needs, I
don't think any of us want our kids to feel this way. Especially when
there are other ways to solve the issue. The issue is your fear, I
need not involve your child at all.
Ok kids awake. Be well.
Faith
Faith
Sent from my iPhone
On May 15, 2009, at 2:32 PM, Rala Brubaker <kravmamma@...> wrote:
>
>
> Thank you Brian,
>
> I have read a good selection of the suggestions already. We all
> must apply what we learn to the life we are personally leading.
>
> Rala
>
> --- On Fri, 5/15/09, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
> wrote:
>
> From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] needs and sugar was is an
> unschooling lifestyle...
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 10:05 AM
>
> I think Rala that you are not fully getting unschooling.
>
> Its not being more lax about parenting - It is acutally being MORE
> present.
>
> No one here advocates leaving you kids alone to navigate the world.
>
> Kids need a present and involved parent and they want guidance.
>
> It is also not about NO rules but about priciples
>
> Here are some good readings on it:
>
>
>
> http://www.sandrado dd.com/rules
>
>
>
> http://sandradodd. com/attentivepar enting
>
>
>
> http://sandradodd. com/pam/howto
>
> http://sandradodd. com/help
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
> http://polykow. blogspot. com/
>
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rala Brubaker
I have a ds 6, dd 7 and ds 17. the teen years have been wonderful and challenging. I have learned much from him about control vs. boundaries. He has learned much from his few boundaries regarding health and safety ( as much from pushing against them and breaking them to endure the natural consequences). We are very close and now at 17 he consults with me and his father on many of his choices from "should I take the CSAPS" to " do you think it is safe to drive after 2 am?"
He is great and I have learned so much from being lucky enough to walk beside him on his journey. I am eager to walk it with the other two. And when they willingly brush their teeth, go to sleep when they are tired and eat anything other than sugar without my help then they will be ready for truly important choices that will have great impact on their lives.
He is great and I have learned so much from being lucky enough to walk beside him on his journey. I am eager to walk it with the other two. And when they willingly brush their teeth, go to sleep when they are tired and eat anything other than sugar without my help then they will be ready for truly important choices that will have great impact on their lives.
--- On Fri, 5/15/09, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: needs and sugar was is an unschooling lifestyle...
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 7:47 PM
~~In our process i have begun to insist on only a few things. 1. I have final say in health or safety matters.~~
No, you really don't.
It's a nice feeling to think that you can have any control over other human beings, but the truth is, people (even very little people) can and will decide for themselves. They might learn to get really sneaky eventually though, if they don't feel your "insists" are reasonable.
How old are your children? Because once you have some teens/grown- up kids it might be easier to understand how little control you really have at any time.
Better to base relationships on trust and respect, so they will WANT to come to you for advice.
Ren
radicalunschooling. blogspot. com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 16, 2009, at 11:48 PM, Rala Brubaker wrote:
to change it.
But is it the control until they prove themselves that's working? I
guarantee that it isn't. If control worked, every parent would be
perfect. Control is the easiest technique to implement. Everyone
knows how to do it.
Something you're doing is working in spite of the control. It might
be personalities. It might be something in the tone of your voice
that communicates beyond the control.
But, the real point is, the list isn't here for mutual sharing of
"What works for me". It's a list specifically for helping people
understand the unschooling philosophy, to let go of what's getting in
their way. Most importantly it's a list for building better
relationships, creating more joyful lives specifically with the
principles of joy and trust and respect. It's not the only way people
are creating happy families, but it's the way that gets discussed
here because that's what the owners want to offer.
If you want to continue as you are and pick up a few things here and
there from the list, lots of people do use the list that way.
But the list is for finding respectful solutions to what families
throw at us.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> And when they willingly brush their teeth, go to sleep when theyThat's your belief. If it works for you then it wouldn't make sense
> are tired and eat anything other than sugar without my help then
> they will be ready for truly important choices that will have great
> impact on their lives.
to change it.
But is it the control until they prove themselves that's working? I
guarantee that it isn't. If control worked, every parent would be
perfect. Control is the easiest technique to implement. Everyone
knows how to do it.
Something you're doing is working in spite of the control. It might
be personalities. It might be something in the tone of your voice
that communicates beyond the control.
But, the real point is, the list isn't here for mutual sharing of
"What works for me". It's a list specifically for helping people
understand the unschooling philosophy, to let go of what's getting in
their way. Most importantly it's a list for building better
relationships, creating more joyful lives specifically with the
principles of joy and trust and respect. It's not the only way people
are creating happy families, but it's the way that gets discussed
here because that's what the owners want to offer.
If you want to continue as you are and pick up a few things here and
there from the list, lots of people do use the list that way.
But the list is for finding respectful solutions to what families
throw at us.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], Rala Brubaker <kravmamma@...> wrote:
A big difference between this kind of thinking and radical unschooling is that there's an assumption in the above that the choices children make are practice for "real life" - for the "important choices". To a child, the choices of the moment are real choices. The needs of the moment are real needs. When we start to see and value those momentary needs and choices we move closer to seeing our kids as real, valid people Right Now, not proto-people, waiting to become real.
Mo's agonies over whether to buy a Bionicle or Spongebob lego kit this week are no less real because she's a child buying a toy. Her feelings and processes are a very real part of her life.
We've had a lot of conversations with Ray about health and safety (he's 15) but his boundaries are his own. When he lived with his bio mom, there were "boundaries" that were decided by the adults in the house - and Ray hurled himself against them at every opportunity. Some of that is personality, other kids will go along with parental "boundaries" to keep the peace, or even internalize them. The difference between "boundaries" and boundaries - since I've made a distinction - is that only Ray decides what Ray's boundaries are. I decide what mine are, about me, not about Ray. George decides what George's boundaries are. Mo decides what Mo's boundaries are. We all work to respect one another's boundaries. If anything, we're better able to respect one another's boundaries because we are, each of us, the authority as to what and where our personal boundaries are.
Ray likes to do some dangerous things. He likes to skateboard and play with fire. We've talked about that, but only Ray decides whether or not to wear a helmet when skating, whether to breathe fire with an alcohol mix or with white gas, how to wear his hair for twirling fire. The same guy who fought every "boundary" someone else imposed -even for his own health and safety - goes very very cautiously when the decisions are really his.
Kids Don't need training to make good decisions! They do need trustworthy support. Part of the job of being an unschooling parent is discovering how to be trustworthy from the perspective of our kids so we can help them make the decisions that are important to them right now. Those are, inherently, choices that will have great impact in their lives Because each of those choices (Bionicle or Spongebob?) will be truly theirs.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>And when they willingly brush their teeth, go to sleep when they are tired and eat anything other than sugar without my help then they will be ready for truly important choices that will have great impact on their lives.**************************
A big difference between this kind of thinking and radical unschooling is that there's an assumption in the above that the choices children make are practice for "real life" - for the "important choices". To a child, the choices of the moment are real choices. The needs of the moment are real needs. When we start to see and value those momentary needs and choices we move closer to seeing our kids as real, valid people Right Now, not proto-people, waiting to become real.
Mo's agonies over whether to buy a Bionicle or Spongebob lego kit this week are no less real because she's a child buying a toy. Her feelings and processes are a very real part of her life.
>> He has learned much from his few boundaries regarding health and safety ( as much from pushing against them and breaking them to endure the natural consequences).***********************
We've had a lot of conversations with Ray about health and safety (he's 15) but his boundaries are his own. When he lived with his bio mom, there were "boundaries" that were decided by the adults in the house - and Ray hurled himself against them at every opportunity. Some of that is personality, other kids will go along with parental "boundaries" to keep the peace, or even internalize them. The difference between "boundaries" and boundaries - since I've made a distinction - is that only Ray decides what Ray's boundaries are. I decide what mine are, about me, not about Ray. George decides what George's boundaries are. Mo decides what Mo's boundaries are. We all work to respect one another's boundaries. If anything, we're better able to respect one another's boundaries because we are, each of us, the authority as to what and where our personal boundaries are.
Ray likes to do some dangerous things. He likes to skateboard and play with fire. We've talked about that, but only Ray decides whether or not to wear a helmet when skating, whether to breathe fire with an alcohol mix or with white gas, how to wear his hair for twirling fire. The same guy who fought every "boundary" someone else imposed -even for his own health and safety - goes very very cautiously when the decisions are really his.
Kids Don't need training to make good decisions! They do need trustworthy support. Part of the job of being an unschooling parent is discovering how to be trustworthy from the perspective of our kids so we can help them make the decisions that are important to them right now. Those are, inherently, choices that will have great impact in their lives Because each of those choices (Bionicle or Spongebob?) will be truly theirs.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
Rala Brubaker
Thanks for that look at it Meredith! When I read your response I realized how often we are trying to put into words our feelings and it is terribly challenging to be completely clear.
I realize that all people have a choice in everything. No matter their age. My younger ones could lie about brushing their teeth for example. We dont have that because we are in gentle loving communication ( more often now than 4 months ago) about the pros and cons of their choices. And as has been pointed out often here, I haveno real control over them.
We talk a lot at our house about that. They ask if they have to eat vegetables. The standard answer is no, what do you want to eat. They say cereal. I ask how they think that will help them grow strong. We then may head into a discussion about what is in the cereal they want, they may choose to eat the cereal or they may choose to try what is being served for dinner. I still struggle to let go to a point where if they had a broken leg and did not want a cast or any other form of straightening procedure, that i could just hang out and let that be their choice. Let them choose to cripple themselves at 6 because they did not want to have to sit out of the pool all summer say.
I am very new to unschooling. I am not great at it. But I will be and right now we are all deschooling...its just taken me several decades to get here. Hopefully they wont have that issue. Anyway, thank you for being gentle and loving to us newbies who need support for us as much as we need direct, straightforward answers.
Rala
I realize that all people have a choice in everything. No matter their age. My younger ones could lie about brushing their teeth for example. We dont have that because we are in gentle loving communication ( more often now than 4 months ago) about the pros and cons of their choices. And as has been pointed out often here, I haveno real control over them.
We talk a lot at our house about that. They ask if they have to eat vegetables. The standard answer is no, what do you want to eat. They say cereal. I ask how they think that will help them grow strong. We then may head into a discussion about what is in the cereal they want, they may choose to eat the cereal or they may choose to try what is being served for dinner. I still struggle to let go to a point where if they had a broken leg and did not want a cast or any other form of straightening procedure, that i could just hang out and let that be their choice. Let them choose to cripple themselves at 6 because they did not want to have to sit out of the pool all summer say.
I am very new to unschooling. I am not great at it. But I will be and right now we are all deschooling...its just taken me several decades to get here. Hopefully they wont have that issue. Anyway, thank you for being gentle and loving to us newbies who need support for us as much as we need direct, straightforward answers.
Rala
--- On Sun, 5/17/09, Meredith <meredith@...> wrote:
From: Meredith <meredith@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: needs and sugar was is an unschooling lifestyle...
To: [email protected]
Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 6:15 PM
--- In unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com, Rala Brubaker <kravmamma@. ..> wrote:
>And when they willingly brush their teeth, go to sleep when they are tired and eat anything other than sugar without my help then they will be ready for truly important choices that will have great impact on their lives.
************ ********* *****
A big difference between this kind of thinking and radical unschooling is that there's an assumption in the above that the choices children make are practice for "real life" - for the "important choices". To a child, the choices of the moment are real choices. The needs of the moment are real needs. When we start to see and value those momentary needs and choices we move closer to seeing our kids as real, valid people Right Now, not proto-people, waiting to become real.
Mo's agonies over whether to buy a Bionicle or Spongebob lego kit this week are no less real because she's a child buying a toy. Her feelings and processes are a very real part of her life.
>> He has learned much from his few boundaries regarding health and safety ( as much from pushing against them and breaking them to endure the natural consequences) .
************ ********* **
We've had a lot of conversations with Ray about health and safety (he's 15) but his boundaries are his own. When he lived with his bio mom, there were "boundaries" that were decided by the adults in the house - and Ray hurled himself against them at every opportunity. Some of that is personality, other kids will go along with parental "boundaries" to keep the peace, or even internalize them. The difference between "boundaries" and boundaries - since I've made a distinction - is that only Ray decides what Ray's boundaries are. I decide what mine are, about me, not about Ray. George decides what George's boundaries are. Mo decides what Mo's boundaries are. We all work to respect one another's boundaries. If anything, we're better able to respect one another's boundaries because we are, each of us, the authority as to what and where our personal boundaries are.
Ray likes to do some dangerous things. He likes to skateboard and play with fire. We've talked about that, but only Ray decides whether or not to wear a helmet when skating, whether to breathe fire with an alcohol mix or with white gas, how to wear his hair for twirling fire. The same guy who fought every "boundary" someone else imposed -even for his own health and safety - goes very very cautiously when the decisions are really his.
Kids Don't need training to make good decisions! They do need trustworthy support. Part of the job of being an unschooling parent is discovering how to be trustworthy from the perspective of our kids so we can help them make the decisions that are important to them right now. Those are, inherently, choices that will have great impact in their lives Because each of those choices (Bionicle or Spongebob?) will be truly theirs.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debra Rossing
> And when they willingly brush their teeth, go to sleep when they are tired and eat anything other than sugar without my helpLOL DS is almost 11 (2 weeks to go). He tends to have a cyclic sleep cycle - sometimes he's awake at night, other times during the day. Last night, he was asleep on the couch when DH and I went up to bed. In the kitchen at the time we had chocolate chips, white chocolate chips, pecans, cashews, raisins, chocolate crème cookies (like oreos but chocolate inside and organic in nature - DS prefers them because he likes the cream inside better than oreo cream), cut up melon and pineapple in the fridge, tossed salad in the fridge, cheese - cream and cheddar, three kinds of crackers, popcorn, tuna (still in can), Cheerios, Nutella (yummy chocolate hazelnut spread similar in texture to PB), PB, jam, ice cream (and probably other stuff, just trying to get a decent cross section). Somewhere in the wee hours, he woke and made himself a plate of cheddar slices and tuna - at that hour, he could have chosen anything without us ever knowing. But, his body knew a need for protein and that's what he got. His whole life has been free-range, particularly about food (there were other things we had more difficulty wrapping our brains around). While we discuss nutrition as a family (DH and I both have health issues that involve what/how we eat) and we answer questions/make information available, DS -could- choose to eat cream cheese and saltines all day long, or ice cream, or those colored sugar water ice pops (they seem to last a long, long time at our house for some reason - I remember as a kid that we'd finish off a pack of them in a matter of days if not hours so having ice cream and ice pops that last for weeks and weeks is pretty different). And, there have been times when he's wanted a very small range of foods - sometimes all carbs, sometimes sweets, sometimes oranges. So that's what we make sure to have stocked up.
He is also asking me to locate some specific types of dentifrice for him because he wants to brush his teeth more but dislikes many typical dental things (anything minty in the least is right out for example).
Several months ago, we discussed the idea of giving as relates to our religious POV - not saying he "should" do anything, I was writing a check for our contribution at the time (he was helping me pay bills). We talked, I showed him a copy of the church budget so he could see how the money we gave from our income was spent, etc. Maybe 10 minutes discussion. Not all that different than when, in response to his question, I showed him the electric bill and how we could track how much electricity we used over the last year. This past Sunday, he grabbed a couple dollars from his wallet (from his allowance/free and clear spending money) to contribute. He may make that a habit, it might be a one-time thing to 'try out' for now. But, either way, it's his choice/decision. (I remember getting $1 per week as a kid and of that 25 cents went to church, required, and 25 cents went to a savings account, also required. Both reasonable 'habits' to develop but not great in terms of being a kid who is effectively getting 50 cents instead of a dollar - good practice for seeing federal and state withholding I guess - nor for determining/choosing how much to give, to save, etc - for the longest time even as an adult, giving in any circumstance was pretty much 'what loose change do I have convenient?' rather than a conscious thought out decision to give).
It's pretty interesting watching his choices unfold free of reward/punishment/coercion
Deb R
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Joyce Fetteroll
On May 17, 2009, at 8:57 PM, Rala Brubaker wrote:
mentioning there's caffeine in a Coke a child wants before bedtime.
*Not* because you want them to see it's a poor choice, but so they
can know they may have trouble falling asleep. (Maybe the Coke will
be worth it. And definitely they'll learn something about themselves
and about caffeine each time they give it a try.)
If you've looked at the cereal once, they know on a certain level.
They also know where the information is kept. If something comes up
in a different context -- what has more fiber, whether there's more
sugar in a bowl of cereal or a Coke, whether that cereal has a
certain ingredient or not -- it will be interesting to look at the
information with fresh eyes. (Real learning happens when we encounter
the same information in several different contexts.)
If I went to get ice cream and my husband said "Let's compare the
ingredients in the ice cream and the frozen yogurt to see which will
help you grow strong," it would be annoying! And I'd feel like I was
under the eye of Big Brother who was watching and judging me and my
choices. It would make me want to sneak the ice cream next time!
Rather than helping them make the "right" choice, eg, the choice
you'd make for them, help them figure out how to make choices. Part
of making choices is trying things out for yourself. So let go of the
immediate choice and look at the big picture and help them make
decisions rather than helping them make the right decisions.
Part of helping them get what they want is seeing the big picture.
Just because a child wants to run in front of an oncoming car after a
ball doesn't mean they want to get hit!
Your child does not want to go through life crippled. She'd want you
to help her through a process she might be frightened of to prevent
that.
What will help is for you and her to engage the doctor in a
discussion of options and consequences. *That's* modeling good
problem solving, not just going with whatever feeling one has in the
moment.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> We then may head into a discussion about what is in the cereal theyInformation is good. And sometimes it's good in the moment, like
> want, they may choose to eat the cereal or they may choose to try
> what is being served for dinner.
mentioning there's caffeine in a Coke a child wants before bedtime.
*Not* because you want them to see it's a poor choice, but so they
can know they may have trouble falling asleep. (Maybe the Coke will
be worth it. And definitely they'll learn something about themselves
and about caffeine each time they give it a try.)
If you've looked at the cereal once, they know on a certain level.
They also know where the information is kept. If something comes up
in a different context -- what has more fiber, whether there's more
sugar in a bowl of cereal or a Coke, whether that cereal has a
certain ingredient or not -- it will be interesting to look at the
information with fresh eyes. (Real learning happens when we encounter
the same information in several different contexts.)
If I went to get ice cream and my husband said "Let's compare the
ingredients in the ice cream and the frozen yogurt to see which will
help you grow strong," it would be annoying! And I'd feel like I was
under the eye of Big Brother who was watching and judging me and my
choices. It would make me want to sneak the ice cream next time!
Rather than helping them make the "right" choice, eg, the choice
you'd make for them, help them figure out how to make choices. Part
of making choices is trying things out for yourself. So let go of the
immediate choice and look at the big picture and help them make
decisions rather than helping them make the right decisions.
> I still struggle to let go to a point where if they had a brokenNo, I wouldn't!
> leg and did not want a cast or any other form of straightening
> procedure, that i could just hang out and let that be their
> choice. Let them choose to cripple themselves at 6 because they
> did not want to have to sit out of the pool all summer say.
>
Part of helping them get what they want is seeing the big picture.
Just because a child wants to run in front of an oncoming car after a
ball doesn't mean they want to get hit!
Your child does not want to go through life crippled. She'd want you
to help her through a process she might be frightened of to prevent
that.
What will help is for you and her to engage the doctor in a
discussion of options and consequences. *That's* modeling good
problem solving, not just going with whatever feeling one has in the
moment.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]