Joyce Fetteroll

Or the pitfalls of trying to explain unschooling.

What are the things that confused you about unschooling
explanations? Where did we get the explanations wrong that got you
facing the wrong direction?

The "No!" idea is a good example from the "What unschooling is"
thread. Another is the idea of no arbitrary bedtimes that gets heard
as no bedtimes and then parents let their kids stay up all night.

I'm going to be giving a talk on the parts of radical unschooling
that we're still not explaining well, confusing explanations that get
people's thoughts muddled as we're trying to get them clear.

If anyone has examples of explanations that gave you the wrong
impression about radical unschooling practices I'd love to hear them.
Anything you wished we could have explained better initially. Things
that perhaps made it harder for you to understand unschooling.

It can be parenting aspects or the "academic" aspects.

Joyce

JRossedd

I ran into a confused "former unschooler" just the other day, who loves
textbooks and thought she'd been told that you had to ban textboooks
from a radical unschooling home:
http://daybydayhsing.blogspot.com/2009/01/unschoolers-and-textbooks.html

She asked if there were any radical unschoolers who also loved textbooks
as she did, and I tried to respond but I'm sure my answer could be
improved upon:

"Once upon a time I adored School including yes, college bookstores full
of seductive textbooks on everything imaginable, where I want to buy out
the whole place! I still am partial to courses and I still love all
books and bookstores.

So it would be silly to misconstrue radical unschooler warning about
textbooks, as saying textbooks are taboo. Real unschoolers don't even
believe that about school courses, much less school books!

Usually the silliness arises because someone is sincerely trying to help
a schoolish mom escape the schoolish mindset by getting her to see texts
as just books, no BETTER for learning than any books and often worse, to
help her actually unschool, by preventing her from being tempted by
texts into sneaky homework assignments and coercive text-peddling hoping
to SCHOOL kids into studying and getting through subject area hoops on
schedule.

This is a hard, hard mind change to make for (schooled) moms wanting to
provide the very best education possible for their own children.
Especially moms like me schooled in schooling!

Until you can really shake off the schoolish mindset and stop the tape
loop in your head that kids need to be taught and made to learn, you're
better off leaving texts out of your home library than justifying
school-at-home by kidding yourself about unschooling with texts, which
can backfire and leave your kids suspicious of all books as schoolish
and mom as more teacher than she'll admit . . .

Once you really, truly are over that, you can indulge your own Joy of
Booking to your heart's content and share it all with the kids as honest
unschooling, including books that someone wrote for a course."

Betj

Joyce,
My 13 year old ds is in public school because he chooses to be BUT I have always been "unschoolish" in how I raise him. He usually goes every where I go as most of my friends have children and we feel if they can't go then it's not worth it. He slept with me until he was 5 and occasionaly after that. I wake him up and make sure he has clothes and such each morning. I keep food around for him but at times do tell him he has to try things b/c he would live on pop tarts. LOL. I read these postings to help me be a better parent. I like the ideas but was confused on what a "monkey platter" is, how to say "no" helpfully, get him to help around the house... I always say yes to books (if I have money) and he always plays video games (Polemon helped him with reading!). Just thought I'd let you know what confused me. I do see how kids learn with school.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 06:14:22
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Unschooling pitfalls


Or the pitfalls of trying to explain unschooling.

What are the things that confused you about unschooling
explanations? Where did we get the explanations wrong that got you
facing the wrong direction?

The "No!" idea is a good example from the "What unschooling is"
thread. Another is the idea of no arbitrary bedtimes that gets heard
as no bedtimes and then parents let their kids stay up all night.

I'm going to be giving a talk on the parts of radical unschooling
that we're still not explaining well, confusing explanations that get
people's thoughts muddled as we're trying to get them clear.

If anyone has examples of explanations that gave you the wrong
impression about radical unschooling practices I'd love to hear them.
Anything you wished we could have explained better initially. Things
that perhaps made it harder for you to understand unschooling.

It can be parenting aspects or the "academic" aspects.

Joyce



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

--- In [email protected], JRossedd <jrossedd@...>
wrote:
>
> I ran into a confused "former unschooler" just the other day, who
loves
> textbooks and thought she'd been told that you had to ban
textboooks
> from a radical unschooling home

I wouldn't say to ban any kind of book as a blanket statement! That
being said, if a family is transitioning to unschooling from having a
Lot of emphasis on school work and school books (and I'm including
*home* school in there) it wouldn't hurt to pack all the schooly
stuff away for awhile, maybe even get rid of it entirely. It could be
a nice, symbolic way of saying "we're going to do something
Different."

When Ray first left school he didn't want anything to do with most
books and asked outright if he could burn his textbooks. We had to
return them to the school, so I offerred him some other textbooks to
burn - I have all kinds of books picked up second hand, and I'm sure
I could have found some I didn't mind torching. He decided to just
burn his papers and folders and workbooks, though.

Since I've had all manner of books all through the house as long as
Mo has been alive, she doesn't have any "issues" with textbooks. We
have some old "reading" textbooks that are nice bc the have a dozen
short stories in them - really handy for travel. We have a lovely
older science text for young children that's "written" all in
pictures. Its a different sort of format from more contemporary
textbooks, too - very tranquil and elegant, without the
multiple "boxes" that you see in texts of all kinds these days.

Mo also has a few workbooks that we've picked up here and there, at
her request. As far as she's concerned they're in the same category
as coloring books or mazes or dot-to-dots. Ray was slightly appalled
the first time Mo pulled out a math workbook - the worst of all
school books in his estimation! By now he's used to seeing such
horrors lying around the house ;)

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Betj" <bkind28@...> wrote:
>how to say "no" helpfully, get him to help around the house...

Can you give an example about saying "no" helpfully? I'm confused.

I've found the best way to "get" Ray - now 15, started unschooling at
13 - to help around the house was to stop asking. That sounds
backwards, but a dynamic existed where "could you please help"
meant "do it, dam'it!" and when we started unschooling the dynamic
still slunk under all our "asking". We expected him to say yes and he
knew it, so he did what we asked, but did it grudgingly and poorly.
So we backed off and stopped asking him to do anything at all around
the house. It was more than a year before he started helping out
again, but when he did, it was entirely out of the goodness of his
heart - and because of that he does a better job than ever before.

A monkey platter is a mixed plate of foods - usually finger foods:

http://sandradodd.com/eating/monkeyplatter

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)

yelenakaplan

" If anyone has examples of explanations that gave you the wrong
> impression about radical unschooling practices I'd love to hear them.
> Anything you wished we could have explained better initially. Things
> that perhaps made it harder for you to understand unschooling."

Since you ask :) Here's my area of confusion:

"And it's a lot easier if the parent begins by dropping no and saying
yes so they can regain their children's trust. But, then that can go
too far with kids who feel out of control and parents who don't know
what to do."

My kiddo is 2.5 and since she started talking at 13 mo, she's never stopped. She thinks
she can reason her way out of any situation (just like her dad) or pretend her way out of it
(just like me). There are just so many questions daily, minutely (wha't a good word for
that?) that require quick 'no' responses and there just isn't enough creativity in my head,
and I'm very creative, to come up with a 'yes' type solution (at least one she'll accept). So
this is the most confusing part of radical unschooling for me.

I say yes so much that she expects a 'yes' in every situation. We don't leave the house
very often right now because she has made the connection between outside (lots of rules
and no's) and at home (lots of yesses and fun). She wants to pick up a newborn, touch
their face when the mother isn't comfortable with it, I say no. She wants to open the toys
in the store so she can look at them, I say not right now. She adopts a friend's toy and I
say no, she can't take it home. It's not our house and she wants to open drawers and take
out tools. She wants to nurse while watching her movie in our uncomfortable chair when I
suggest nursing in the bed while watching said movie. We're out on our way somewhere
for a commitment and she's all of a sudden set on going somewhere else. Says her cough
is gone because she's not coughing at the moment, and it's fine to go play at a friend's
house who doesn't want to catch a cold and I say no. When I do say no, I always suggest
an alternative, ask if she has any ideas on what else would she could do instead. She
laughs and says 'no I don't' and goes on asking for what she wants. She's a kid who
knows exactly what she wants, exactly -- it's a blessing mostly and a curse in these
situations. Sometimes she reluctantly agrees on an alternative, but very reluctantly. I'm a
very flexible person, nothing bugs me pretty much but I know that's not how it is in the
rest of the world and I accept that there are social rules.

Is she just too young to be out in stores, around babies, friend's toys, not to understand
that it hurts my back when she nurses for hours in a bad chair? Her good/overwhelmed
mood change is very quick -- if we're out of the house for an hour it's too long unless
we're at an unschooler's home where the atmosphere is closer to that of home.

So what does a mom do with a very little person who would rather be a hermit than follow
social conventions? It's a control issue, I can see that, so how do you help a kid feel happy
and not out of control without saying "no" and without saying 'yes' too much? Is there a
golden ratio of yesses to no's? :) As I'm typing this some answers are coming to me all by
themselves, but what's a radical unschooler's explanation for this type of situation?

Thanks for posting the question!
Yelena

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> Or the pitfalls of trying to explain unschooling.
>
> What are the things that confused you about unschooling
> explanations? Where did we get the explanations wrong that got you
> facing the wrong direction?
>
> The "No!" idea is a good example from the "What unschooling is"
> thread. Another is the idea of no arbitrary bedtimes that gets heard
> as no bedtimes and then pare nts let their kids stay up all night.
>
> I'm going to be giving a talk on the parts of radical unschooling
> that we're still not explaining well, confusing explanations that get
> people's thoughts muddled as we're trying to get them clear.
>
> If anyone has examples of explanations that gave you the wrong
> impression about radical unschooling practices I'd love to hear them.
> Anything you wished we could have explained better initially. Things
> that perhaps made it harder for you to understand unschooling.
>
> It can be parenting aspects or the "academic" aspects.
>
> Joyce
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 11, 2009, at 8:35 PM, yelenakaplan wrote:


> Is she just too young to be out in stores, around babies, friend's
> toys, not to understand
> that it hurts my back when she nurses for hours in a bad chair?

Yes. If a child must be different than she can be so she's not
disruptive or hurtful then she needs to not be put in those
situations until she's old enough.

As Sandra Dodd says, "Don't set them up to fail."

It's too easy to get trapped into thinking kids need exposure to
situations for practice until they get it right. And if kids are
pretty far from doing it right, they must need a lot of exposure to
get a lot of practice!

But not so. Let age take care of it. Keep her home for now. She's too
young to be a good guest.

> I say yes so much that she expects a 'yes' in every situation.

Instead of yes, how about some form of "That's an interesting idea.
Let's figure out how we can make that happen."

Obviously some things are still just plain yes like "Can I have a
cookie." :-) (Though even with that you can say "We'll be eating in
a few minutes. Do you want to wait for dinner?" just so they have
that information to make a better informed decision. (Her answer
might be that she wants the cookie still, of course!)

Kelly Lovejoy said one thing her father said instead of no was,
"Well, let's look at some other options first."

She's only 2.5 and can't do much of anything on her own. You've
become her gateway and you're either an open gateway or a closed
gateway (from her point of view, even if you're giving her other
options). Rather than yes or no, begin involving her in the process
of making yes happen.

This might take more of a mental shift than you think. Lots of
parents use information as another form of no rather than as
information to help someone understand the situation better. They'll
say "That's too high," when they really mean "No, you can't climb
that because it's too high and makes me nervous." Begin with the
obstacles that need to be tackled before you get to yes.

> We don't leave the house
> very often right now because she has made the connection between
> outside (lots of rules
> and no's) and at home (lots of yesses and fun).

It's okay if she stays home for now.

> She wants to pick up a newborn, touch
> their face when the mother isn't comfortable with it, I say no.

"The baby doesn't belong to me. He belongs to the mom."

How about going through a scenario with her and a baby doll at home.
Help her come up with ways of politely asking if she can touch. Let
her know it's okay to touch the clothes but

> She wants to open the toys
> in the store so she can look at them, I say not right now.

How about "Those belong to the store."

> She adopts a friend's toy and I
> say no, she can't take it home.

"That belongs to Sarah."

In *some* cases kids want to hear "That is a cool toy!" just to share
that feeling with you. (This is where knowing your child is helpful!
Not all kids literally mean what they say, though in the case of your
daughter, it sounds like she does :-) Sometimes they want to hear,
"Let's find out where they bought it."

> It's not our house and she wants to open drawers and take
> out tools.

"Those belong to Aunt Jane. You need to ask permission first."

But if she's not old enough to be polite, she shouldn't be in those
types of situations.

> She wants to nurse while watching her movie in our uncomfortable
> chair when I
> suggest nursing in the bed while watching said movie.

"That chair hurts my back."

> We're out on our way somewhere
> for a commitment and she's all of a sudden set on going somewhere
> else.

"Absolutely. We can do that on the way back."

"That sounds like fun. x is expecting us at 11. We'll be there for an
hour. We could stop there on the way back."

> Says her cough
> is gone because she's not coughing at the moment, and it's fine to
> go play at a friend's
> house who doesn't want to catch a cold and I say no.

You could call up the mom and ask if it's okay. Maybe the other child
has a cold too! Maybe the other mom is laid back about such things
and figures the world's full of germs and colds will happen.

It's all pretty much guess work on how long people are contagious
with a cold. Here's a good article.
Common Cold Contagious Period

http://tinyurl.com/8y27mw

Using the cough as a marker seems reasonable but coughs can persist
long after the other cold symptoms.

I'm sure others can come up with some ideas!

> When I do say no, I always suggest
> an alternative, ask if she has any ideas on what else would she
> could do instead.

Instead of no, begin problem solving. If you begin with no, that's
what she hears. The rest is just "blah blah blah."

Give her information. Not as a no, but as, this is an obstacle that
needs tackled.

> She
> laughs and says 'no I don't' and goes on asking for what she wants.

She's being honest! :-)


> Her good/overwhelmed
> mood change is very quick -- if we're out of the house for an hour
> it's too long unless
> we're at an unschooler's home where the atmosphere is closer to
> that of home.

Have you read:

Raising Your Spirited Child
http://tinyurl.com/5sut7p

and The Explosive Child
http://tinyurl.com/5wbvdx


> So what does a mom do with a very little person who would rather be
> a hermit than follow
> social conventions?

Let her be a hermit for now. She's only 2.5! You don't need to change
her. Age will change her. Test out the waters occasionally. Take her
out where she won't butt heads with social rules. But don't pressure
her into social situations she's not yet developmentally ready for.

> It's a control issue, I can see that, so how do you help a kid feel
> happy
> and not out of control without saying "no" and without saying 'yes'
> too much?

Part of the control issue is that she's 2.5 and has realized how
little control she has over the world. She's discovered that she can
control the world through you. That's not a bad thing but since she's
so verbal, I think you can involve her more in the process of getting
to some form of yes rather than seeing only yes or no as answers to
her questions.


> Is there a
> golden ratio of yesses to no's? :)

What golden ratio of yeses to nos do you want to hear from your husband?

I guess the pitfall of yes is that it doesn't involve kids in the
thought process of making something happen.

Joyce

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 11, 2009, at 8:35 PM, yelenakaplan wrote:

> When I do say no, I always suggest
> an alternative, ask if she has any ideas on what else would she
> could do instead. She
> laughs and says 'no I don't' and goes on asking for what she wants.

This just came in from Scott Noelle:

> THE DAILY GROOVE ~ by Scott Noelle
> www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove
>
> :: Say Yes First ::
>
> When your child is doing something that's not to
> your liking, just saying "no" is likely to lead
> to a conflict.
>
> Respectful parents offer their children alternatives:
> "Don't do THAT... Here, do THIS."
>
> But if you lead with a "no," the "yes" may not be
> heard -- the child will be too busy defending against
> what appears to be an assault on his or her freedom.
>
> So look for ways to say "yes" FIRST -- if not
> literally, then energetically -- and don't focus a lot
> of energy on the "no." Let your child be *attracted*
> to an acceptable alternative rather than forced.
>
> Now you're working *with* your child's nature!
>
> http://dailygroove.net/say-yes-first

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carenkh

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:

>>She wants to nurse while watching her movie in our uncomfortable
chair when I suggest nursing in the bed while watching said movie.

>>"That chair hurts my back."



Or, put a comfortable chair there.

batsonstudio

Hi Yelena,
I have never posted here before (I'm just learning about unschooling), but I wanted to
reply, because our 2.5 year olds sound a lot alike. Something that's helped me immensely
is reading about Highly Sensitive Children. It's helped me re-focus on my son - as
opposed to continually feeling that he was out-of-sync, or should be more "social" - all
imagined judgements in my own head. Now I focus on his reality - sharp as a tack, funny,
very loving with me, papa, and grandmama, and most comfortable inside the family
bubble. And I tell myself a lot - "chill out, he's only TWO!"

Elaine Aron wrote a whole book about Highly Sensitive Children. Her website is:
http://www.hsperson.com/pages/child.htm

An article about HSCs in Mothering:
http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/child_health/highly-sensitive.html

Someone else recently posted this about unschooling an HSC:
http://www.livingjoyfully.ca/anneo/Highly_Sensitive_Shine.htm

Take care,
Virginia
mom to Griffin, 2.5

--- In [email protected], "yelenakaplan" <kaplanyel@...> wrote:

We don't leave the house very often right now because she has made the connection
between outside (lots of rules and no's) and at home (lots of yesses and fun).

She's a kid who knows exactly what she wants, exactly -- it's a blessing mostly and a
curse in these situations.

Her good/overwhelmed mood change is very quick -- if we're out of the house for an hour
it's too long unless we're at an unschooler's home where the atmosphere is closer to that
of home.

So what does a mom do with a very little person who would rather be a hermit than follow
social conventions?

Yelena

Jodi Bezzola

--- On Mon, 1/12/09, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
 
~~Let her be a hermit for now. She's only 2.5! You don't need to change her. Age will change her. Test out the waters occasionally. Take her out where she won't butt heads with social rules. But don't pressure
her into social situations she's not yet developmentally ready for.~~
 
We have 4 year old twin girls, and from the time they could run until about 6 months ago, we didn't take them anywhere they had to 'behave'.  It just ended up with all of us being unhappy!  We went to the zoo, to bird sanctuaries, to science centres that were designed for kids, etc., so I could get out and be in the rest of the world, and so they could have lots of freedom to be exactly where they were at developmentally, and be *successfull*.  It worked beautifully, and now I can take them into a store, or a home, or a restaurant (still not very often, lol), and it all goes pretty well.  I really believe in 'don't set them up to fail'!  I also believe in don't set *myeslf* up to fail, since I don't parent very well when I'm completely frustrated.
 
Jodi




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betj

My ds is now 13 but when he was an infant I was lost, I thought babies are supposed to sleep! What's wrong? Well he still doesn't sleep like many people think he should. And for years loud sound really bothered him! Sadly I used to burn dinner often and send him shrieking to grab my legs as the fire alarm went off. I finally learned to take video games with us to dinner, he STILL does and some people think it's rude but it keeps him and the rest of our family happy. He was never really a colorer or into art but has loved video games since he could play Duck Hunt @ 2! I just learned if it was noisy (took him to the circus, Globetrotters game, wrestling...) or required sitting for a while we would have to leave. For a while I stopped taking him and about 10 started again. Even then loud noises bothered him and he sat through monster trucks with fingers in his ears.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...>

Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:39:37
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unschooling pitfalls


--- On Mon, 1/12/09, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
�
~~Let her be a hermit for now. She's only 2.5! You don't need to change her. Age will change her. Test out the waters occasionally. Take her out where she won't butt heads with social rules. But don't pressure
her into social situations she's not yet developmentally ready for.~~
�
We�have 4 year old twin girls, and from the time they could run until about 6 months ago, we didn't take them anywhere they had to 'behave'.� It just ended up with�all of us being�unhappy!� We went to the zoo, to bird sanctuaries, to science centres that were designed for kids, etc., so I could get out and be in the rest of the world, and so they could have lots of freedom to be exactly where they were at developmentally, and be *successfull*.� It worked beautifully, and now I can take them into a store, or a home, or a restaurant (still not very often, lol), and it all goes pretty well.� I really believe in 'don't set them up to fail'!� I�also believe in don't set *myeslf* up to fail, since I don't parent very well when I'm completely frustrated.
�
Jodi




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

> Is she just too young to be out in stores, around babies, friend's
> toys, not to understand
> that it hurts my back when she nurses for hours in a bad chair? Her
> good/overwhelmed
> mood change is very quick -- if we're out of the house for an hour
> it's too long unless
> we're at an unschooler's home where the atmosphere is closer to that
> of home.

My first response would be "yes."
>
>
> So what does a mom do with a very little person who would rather be
> a hermit than follow
> social conventions?

Stay home? Honestly!

> It's a control issue, I can see that, so how do you help a kid feel
> happy
> and not out of control without saying "no" and without saying 'yes'
> too much?

For whom is it a control issue?

Your dd is *very* young. There seems to be lots of situations in which
you feel your only response should be "no." If you think of that as a
measurement of whether she's ready for outings, commitments,
understanding, then you can decide where you'd rather be until she's
ready to comprehend why she "can't" do certain things. At home, you
have opportunities to offer more choices than you might in social
situations.

You say that she wants to stay home because she hears "no" too much
elsewhere. There's also the possibility that she's naturally a
homebody. Nothing wrong with that. I schlepped my home-loving daughter
everywhere, to all sorts of things *I* wanted to do when she was
little (and older, sometimes). Big mistake. It made life outside of
her comfort zone miserable for her and difficult for me. As she gets
older, she wants more interaction outside home, but on occasion, still
has trouble.

So, for your dd, you could create a rich environment for her at home,
until she's ready (and you can try short outings, to gauge her
readiness). Some home-type ideas here:

http://sandradodd.com/day/ebbandflow

As with many things in our unschooling life, I try not to force my dd
into situations or to learn something she's not ready for. She's shown
me over and over that when she's ready, she'll learn and understand. I
need to facilitate a happy life for her, however that might be, so
that the truly non-negotiable things will be easier to take.

> Is there a
> golden ratio of yesses to no's? :) As I'm typing this some answers
> are coming to me all by
> themselves, but what's a radical unschooler's explanation for this
> type of situation?

Gee, I don't think so, but I'll defer to Joyce on this one.

Robin B.
>

Joyce Fetteroll

This was sent off list. Since what I wrote clarifies what I said
yesterday, I'll pass it on.


On Jan 12, 2009, at 9:44 PM, Paul D. Fernhout wrote:
> Danielle & Joyce-
>
> Here is part of a message from UnschoolingBasics (Mon, 12 Jan 2009)
> in a
> thread called "Unschooling pitfalls" and some comments by me on
> that. Joyce
> originally started that thread with the question: "What are the
> things that
> confused you about unschooling explanations? Where did we get the
> explanations wrong that got you facing the wrong direction?"
>
> On Jan 11, 2009, at 8:35 PM, [someone] wrote in that thread:
> : She wants to pick up a newborn, touch
> : their face when the mother isn't comfortable with it, I say no.
>
> Joyce replied:
>> How about going through a scenario with her and a baby doll at
>> home. Help her come up with ways of politely asking if she can
>> touch. Let her know it's okay to touch the clothes but
>> [snip]
>
> That post was interesting to me, to see Joyce giving the same advice
> Danielle criticized me for when I suggested it on
> AlwaysUnschooled. :-)
> Though admittedly, I had written other stuff Danielle was unhappy
> with, in
> content, form, and length, and I accept it is her list to moderate
> as she
> sees fit.

I have no idea what the scenario was on AlwaysUnschooled so I can't
compare.

But if your idea was to change the child so she could be more
socially acceptable, I'd agree with Danielle. (Oh, I noticed
Danielle's reply way down at the bottom. So I did guess right.)

Touching babies was clearly something this child loves to do but
doesn't know how in socially acceptable ways. My suggestion of
scenarios was not for the mom to move the child to where the mom
wants her to be. My suggestion was for the mom to help the child be
where the child wants to be. If the child wanted -- and she seems a
very verbal child who might be able to understand at 2.5 -- the mom
could present some scenarios that might help the child do what the
child wanted in safe and respectful ways.

The alternative, and if helping with some ideas her doesn't work
because she's just too young, is to not take her places that have
babies until she's old enough not to impulsively put her hands on
their faces.

Conventional parents would see this as giving up. It's not. It's
respecting that the child isn't old enough. It's respectful not to
put the child into situations the child can't yet handle. And it's
respectful of other people not to have their babies attacked! Keeping
her away from babies for now is less stressful all around for
something the child will grow out of. If she's not ready to stop
touching babies, all that nos do is increase the stress for everyone
involved.

> I also still wonder if education unschooling makes happier and
> healthier and more self-reliant well-adjusted kids, and that in
> turn lets
> them get more of the benefits of what most people would call
> permissive-but-very-involved parenting with less of the costs.

If parents are reading what we're writing and becoming hands off
parents, then I'd say yes.

If they're becoming their child's partner, trusting and respecting
their child, helping their child do what the child wants to do in
safe and respectful ways, then I'd say no.

Which was the purpose of my asking about pitfalls. Are we writing in
a way that makes it sound like we mean let the child run the home?
Are there other ideas that people initially think are pointing in one
direction when we're trying to point them in a different direction.

I do think, yes, the writing often becomes so focused on the child's
wants -- because the parents are often seeing child rearing from top
down management point of view -- that it gets lost that we're there
helping them find safe and respectful alternatives to their ideas and
sometimes keeping them from world until they can be safe and respectful.

Paul, this is way too much to respond to one person. It would take me
hours. Literally. I don't mind spending that time when a couple
hundred people might glance at what I've written and take something
away, but it's not a good use of my time for one person who has
decided RU isn't for him.

Joyce

The rest of the off list email is below. I scanned down through but
didn't read it. If anyone does happen to read it and sees a *piece*
they'd like to see discussed, it could be useful. Though it's much
more useful to discuss specific incidents. That way the philosophy
can be seen in action rather than pulled out into what seems like the
airy fairy ether ;-)




>
> If you ever want to continue to improve on current radical unschooling
> ideology, here are some resources I have found useful.
>
> These links are on parenting style and the typical implications:
>
> From Wikipedia:
> "Parenting Styles: Authoritarian, Authoritative, Permissive &
> Neglectful"
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parenting_styles
>
> or, from a different perspective (Myers-Briggs), here:
> "Mothering [or Fathering] styles"
> http://www.motherstyles.com/
>
> or also, here:
> "Personality and Parenting "
> http://www.calgaryschild.com/content/view/95/22/
>
> And this one someone recently pointed me to suggests the difference
> between
> being parent-centered, child-centered, and family-centered for
> young kids:
> "Who's in Control? The Unhappy Consequences of Being Child-Centered"
> http://www.continuum-concept.org/reading/whosInControl.html
> "It appears that many parents of toddlers, in their anxiety
> to be neither negligent nor disrespectful, have gone
> overboard in what may seem to be the other direction."
>
> In general, I still find it hard to distinguish which of the radical
> unschooling benefits come from the "educational unschooling" part,
> and which
> come from the specific type of "radical parenting" part
> (acknowledging there
> are many ways to be a radical parent, and RU ideology represents
> just one of
> those ways). I also still wonder if education unschooling makes
> happier and
> healthier and more self-reliant well-adjusted kids, and that in
> turn lets
> them get more of the benefits of what most people would call
> permissive-but-very-involved parenting with less of the costs.
>
> I feel radical unschooling has a tremendous lot of good practical
> ideas
> discussed on the lists which are generally filled with wonderful
> people
> trying their best to be the best parents they can be and thinking
> hard about
> issues of a balance of authority and permissiveness. It is too bad
> the RU
> ideology by contrast is so extreme towards freedom (and for only
> the child),
> as that ideology keeps people from both the good practical
> compassionate
> parenting and mindful parenting ideas in RU as well as educational
> unschooling itself. I feel at this point it is tragic for John Holt's
> original educational unschooling vision
> http://www.holtgws.com/whatisunschoolin.html
> to be weighted down by the RU ideology-oriented email lists which
> dominate
> the unschooling discussion on the net. IMHO RU dominating the
> unschooling
> space discourages the wider adoption of educational unschooling,
> since many
> parents (rightly IMHO) balk at some of the extremes of RU ideology,
> even
> while the might find many of the RU practices are excellent and
> innovative,
> and the key practitioners are obviously wonderful parents. So, in that
> sense, the current RU ideology is the enemy of the RU practice as
> well as
> "educational unschooling" IMHO.
>
> Radical Unschooling seems to me to be the "libertarianism" of
> parenting in
> some ways, and it has some of the same flaws as an ideology:
> http://www.amconmag.com/article/2005/mar/14/00017/
> "The most fundamental problem with libertarianism is very simple:
> freedom,
> though a good thing, is simply not the only good thing in life. Simple
> physical security, which even a prisoner can possess, is not
> freedom, but
> one cannot live without it. Prosperity is connected to freedom, in
> that it
> makes us free to consume, but it is not the same thing, in that one
> can be
> rich but as unfree as a Victorian tycoon’s wife. A family is in
> fact one of
> the least free things imaginable, as the emotional satisfactions of it
> derive from relations that we are either born into without choice
> or, once
> they are chosen, entail obligations that we cannot walk away from
> with ease
> or justice. But security, prosperity, and family are in fact the
> bulk of
> happiness for most real people and the principal issues that concern
> governments. "
>
> Overall, I feel reading about RU has been helpful. Just not as
> helpful as it
> could have been without so much extreme ideology (or ideology
> promoting
> extremes -- for example, Pat Ferenga said the more balanced: "When
> pressed,
> I define unschooling as allowing children as much freedom to learn
> in the
> world, as their parents can comfortably bear."). Freedom for a
> young child
> to make his or her own choices is an important value, but it is not
> the only
> important value, considering the value of family, society, health,
> safety,
> character, good habits, and so on. And by the time a kid is a
> teenager, he
> or she is essentially beyond most parental authority most of the
> time if the
> kid has any independence at all (like if they sneak what they want
> outside
> the home or in their room), so obviously giving in gracefully to a
> child's
> plans or wishes by then makes a lot of sense no matter what kind of
> parenting style one had. What is hard is to decide what to do in
> the time in
> between birth and becoming a teenager.
>
> Maybe part of the issue is left over again from the madness of
> schooling --
> focusing on educating the individual child as a product, instead of
> focusing
> on building a learning community as a family or neighborhood?
> Because as
> soon as you start talking about freedom for more than one person,
> you need
> to start talking about balance (even just to the point of "your
> right to
> swing your fist ends where my nose begins", which seems the bare
> minimum of
> balance needed for freedom for all).
>
> In my family, freedom for *everyone* is important (parents, child,
> and even
> the dogs and pet chickens) but I accept that sometimes these
> freedoms and
> desires conflict (whether when the parents freely want to use their
> energy
> to have the child behave in a different way or vice versa, and
> *certainly*
> in the case that the dogs would just as soon eat the chickens if
> they could
> get at them, but the chickens presumably wouldn't like that even as
> they
> would like to freerange more). I may often fail to do a good enough
> job
> balancing all that, but at least I accept this fundamental issue of
> thinking
> about balance ideologically (informed by a variety of traditions,
> whether
> Yoga, or Yin-Yang, and so on), so it is no trouble ideologically
> for me to
> explore how to either make a compromise (the usual way to resolve
> conflicts)
> or to transcend the conflict with a creative solution (the ideal
> way, but
> often harder to come up with). Many of the best RU practices IMHO
> fall in
> the category of trying to transcend the conflict, although many
> also are
> about balance. But the ideology of RU IMHO can not think this through
> systematically, since the RU ideology can't admit of these fundamental
> conflicts and the need to think about them, even though in
> practice, most of
> the discussions on the lists are about conflicts and thinking them
> through.
> Ideologically, this issue of balancing freedom for different people
> in a
> family does not bother me (although it may bother me that the
> universe is
> that way :-), nor does the issue of balancing freedom against some
> other
> good values bother me ideologically (even though in practice these
> issues
> are hard to resolve, and our family may sometimes try an approach
> which
> later feels like a mistake or an unfairness.) But if I was 100% RU
> ideologically and child-centered, having to even think in terms of
> balance
> would have to bother me.
>
> For, example, back in January 2008, I wrote on AlwaysUnschooled:
> "So, If I'm willing to go 99.9% of the way, can you consider going
> the other 0.1% to say, yes with a young child and a serious problem,
> behavior techniques may have some merit in at least in thinking about
> the patterns of reinforcement and feedback loops, even if behavioral
> approaches should never be a first way or only to think about an issue
> for RUers with young children?"
>
> And another Pat (wuweimama, not Farenga) wrote: "No."
>
> And really, that does seem like the RU ideological sentiment.
>
> For me, that ideological extremism sums up one big problem with RU
> ideology.
> Again, much of the practice is wonderful -- and Pat (wuweimama) is
> obviously
> a wonderful parent full of enormously useful advice and cares
> deeply about
> children and making the world a better place. But there is a gap
> between
> practice and ideology in posts by many people on these lists. A big
> gap. And
> part of that gap IMHO has to do with thinking about balance, and
> part of it
> has to do with thinking about parenting styles and how different
> parenting
> styles may be more or less appropriate for different mixes of
> parent and
> child personalities in a family.
>
> I like Ursula K Le Guin so much as an author because she is able to
> move beyond a notion of good versus evil in her stories to an idea
> of people
> looking for balance (like the wizards in "A Wizard of Earthsea"). I
> did a
> search earlier and found only 17 emails out of a recent 13000 or so on
> Unschooling Basics list include the word "balance" in the body, and
> another
> two dozen or so have "balance" in the title from two threads. But,
> that
> clearly shows, like with only 26 emails with "permissive" in the body,
> "balance" is apparently not a topic much on radical unschoolers
> minds. And
> that makes me wonder about radical unschooling as a life philosophy,
> because, for example, Koyaanisqatsi is a movie and an idea with
> some meaning
> for me:
> "Koyaanisqatsi: a Hopi Indian word meaning "life out of balance.""
> http://www.koyaanisqatsi.org/films/koyaanisqatsi.php
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koyaanisqatsi
>
> I also have trouble with a style of parenting and education that
> conflicts
> with the basic ideas in, say, Yoga, which my wife practices.
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Yoga+balance
> The first link there: "Join us at Yoga Balance where our intention
> is to
> provide yoga classes that create healthy bodies, peaceful minds and
> joyful
> spirits."
>
> Still, I did a search just now for "balance" in AlwaysUnschooled,
> and got
> more matches. So, clearly, for younger kids, these balance issues
> are talked
> about some. But in glancing at some replies at random, in many the
> word
> balance is used incidentally, or it's a mention of balance but not a
> discussion of it.
>
> Perhaps seeking balance is just not unschooling in any way? Can't
> quality
> compassionate childhood education be a balance of the interests of the
> parent and the interests of the child? Can one even imagine a happy
> family
> where the interests of both parent and child are not respected to some
> degree in some sort of balance?
>
> Anyway, I've tried to follow Danielle's advice below to read more
> and post
> less (I've not posted at all anymore to those two lists, actually).
> The best
> I can suggest in return is to take a long hard look at the links
> above and
> think deeply about what those ideas about parenting style and
> balance mean
> to crafting a more workable RU ideology (even if the RU practices
> described
> on the lists are generally great ideas in most cases).
>
> I'd suggest that if you both want the unschooling movement to go
> forward, as
> Joyce is asking about in the "Unschooling pitfalls" thread, you
> discuss
> ideas like "permissive" and "balance" more, and think hard on how
> those
> ideas fit or don't fit into RU ideology and practice. I've been
> posting some
> ideas on those in another list (FUNNY, coincidence?) which is no
> longer
> explicitly an RU list, in hopes of moving unschooling forward,
> especially
> since at this point I don't even want to use the unschooling term
> myself
> since it seems to get really bad reactions (more from the RU parenting
> connotations and people's experiences of families that call themselves
> radical unschoolers than the educational connotations of educational
> unschooling which are generally easy to get people to accept these
> days with
> the internet for learning on demand etc.). I hope maybe the two of you
> talking together (along with Pat and others) can for yourselves
> think about
> these issues and improve both the educational unschooling movement
> and RU
> movement for everyone.
>
> I won't trouble you more on this issue. I'm also not posting this
> to either
> list so you don't have to think about whether you need to moderate
> it. And
> feel free to kick me out of the lists if you want for sending this
> to you,
> I've basically moved beyond RU in my own parenting, although I have
> enjoyed
> both lists and learned a lot from them, and I appreciate all the
> time that
> both of you have put into those lists.
>
> All the best in success with your lists and improving RU ideology.
> You are
> both doing important stuff there, and I know you are all trying to
> be the
> best parents and child-advocates you can, and that's a great thing.
>
> --Paul Fernhout
>
> Danielle Conger wrote to AlwaysUnschooled (1/7/08):
>> Paul D. Fernhout wrote:
>>> > By the way, in trying even harder to come up with more RU
>>> solutions, I
>>> > realized that I just assumed the parents have tried playing out
>>> various
>>> > scenarios with stuffed animals (baby goes to toy store, little
>>> girl goes to
>>> > toy store, pinching, baby cries, parents upset, etc.). Or that
>>> they also
>>> > tried making up stories in a fantasy world the parents have
>>> made for the kid
>>> > or found somewhere.
>> The entire rest of the long-winded post aside, do you really...
>> and I mean really, truly, honestly... think this is a good idea
>> here with a 2 year old? Are you really so convinced that a TWO
>> YEAR OLD who is compulsively pinching babies is going to become
>> the next Saddam Hussein or star of The Bad Seed? And if so, do you
>> *really* think that role playing with stuffed animals is the answer?
>> Paul, you have been asked specifically by members and moderators
>> to please condense your posts. They are unwieldy. They are
>> extreme. They are unhelpful. They have little to nothing to do
>> with radical unschooling. As the list-owner, I'm now making the
>> request: If you're going to take up list time asking for
>> exceptions and exemptions to living RU, please do so from now on
>> in 200 words or less. Seriously. You're clogging up the digests,
>> and I'm getting complaints off-list. Several of us have tried to
>> be patient. Several have tried a more direct approach. Cathy even
>> finds you funny.
>> Personally, I'd suggest you read more, spend more time thinking
>> and applying the ideas to how they might play out in your own
>> family, post less.
>
>

Sylvia Toyama

Wow. I'm thinking in half the time it took him to research, link and type his post, he could figure out ways to meet his child's needs and come that .01% farther into making unschooling as a lifestyle work. <g>
 
Sylvia







www.ourhapahome.blogspot.com

www.ourhapahome365.blogspot.com

 
 
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

yelenakaplan

"I guess the pitfall of yes is that it doesn't involve kids in the
thought process of making something happen." and "Rather than yes or
no, begin involving her in the process of making yes happen."


Yes, this is exactly where the "just say yes more" advice left me
wanting clarification. I have to reread all the responses here many
times before everything clicks, but I agree, the key is shifting to
yes energy and involving her in the process, and it is a really
difficult shift to *really* make. Other than saying 'do you have any
ideas' I'm not sure where to start. She knows things in the
store/friend's house/etc don't belong to us -- she just gets attached
to them very quickly and intensly (yet often for an extremely short
period of time, like as soon as it's actually hers because her friend
says she can have it or I buy it. After a day, she discards it...)

"It's too easy to get trapped into thinking kids need exposure to
situations for practice until they get it right. And if kids are
pretty far from doing it right, they must need a lot of exposure to
get a lot of practice!"

Yes, this is another very strong mental movie I have playing in my
head much of the time. She'll just get used to it I think to
myself. When I'm in that thought rut, I drag her to all the local HS
group meetings, places I think she 'should' be going -- parks,
museums, etc. She'd rather just go to the coffee shop down the
street, B&N, and McDonalds playplace. She likes other places, but for
some reason the idea of actually getting up and going there stresses
her out. Sometimes she'll even suggest it but then if we start to
get ready to go she'll just say 'soon' with an evil little smile
(it's very cute) that means it's not happening. Her dad does the
same thing with "maybe" (no evil smile though). In my specific
situation it does mean being at home *most* of the time, except for
short outings to those places. The kid is awesome and ridiculously
funny and fun to be with, so it's not so hard untill that moment
of 'I can't do this anymore!!!!' cuz I've just been sitting for
hourshours straight or haven't been in adult presence (not counting
hubby) in 72 hours. When I'm really in a tizzy I do get out on my
own so I can remember how to drive LOL There are things I can do on
this topic, definitely.

"Begin with the obstacles that need to be tackled before you get to
yes."

Could you elaborate on this a bit? I feel like this is another place
I get lost sometimes. How do you begin with the obstacles without
having 'no' energy? Do you mean describe the problem? Stepstools and
things like that we can handle, but lets say they did make a mom
nervous. What's the next practical step after expressing that it
makes you nervous?

Thanks again for everyone's responses -- with reading and rereading
more things become much clearer.

Yelena

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Jan 11, 2009, at 8:35 PM, yelenakaplan wrote:
>
>
> > Is she just too young to be out in stores, around babies,
friend's
> > toys, not to understand
> > that it hurts my back when she nurses for hours in a bad chair?
>
> Yes. If a child must be different than she can be so she's not
> disruptive or hurtful then she needs to not be put in those
> situations until she's old enough.
>
> As Sandra Dodd says, "Don't set them up to fail."
>
> It's too easy to get trapped into thinking kids need exposure to
> situations for practice until they get it right. And if kids are
> pretty far from doing it right, they must need a lot of exposure
to
> get a lot of practice!
>
> But not so. Let age take care of it. Keep her home for now. She's
too
> young to be a good guest.
>
> > I say yes so much that she expects a 'yes' in every situation.
>
> Instead of yes, how about some form of "That's an interesting
idea.
> Let's figure out how we can make that happen."
>
> Obviously some things are still just plain yes like "Can I have a
> cookie." :-) (Though even with that you can say "We'll be eating
in
> a few minutes. Do you want to wait for dinner?" just so they have
> that information to make a better informed decision. (Her answer
> might be that she wants the cookie still, of course!)
>
> Kelly Lovejoy said one thing her father said instead of no was,
> "Well, let's look at some other options first."
>
> She's only 2.5 and can't do much of anything on her own. You've
> become her gateway and you're either an open gateway or a closed
> gateway (from her point of view, even if you're giving her other
> options). Rather than yes or no, begin involving her in the
process
> of making yes happen.
>
> This might take more of a mental shift than you think. Lots of
> parents use information as another form of no rather than as
> information to help someone understand the situation better.
They'll
> say "That's too high," when they really mean "No, you can't climb
> that because it's too high and makes me nervous." Begin with the
> obstacles that need to be tackled before you get to yes.
>
> > We don't leave the house
> > very often right now because she has made the connection between
> > outside (lots of rules
> > and no's) and at home (lots of yesses and fun).
>
> It's okay if she stays home for now.
>
> > She wants to pick up a newborn, touch
> > their face when the mother isn't comfortable with it, I say no.
>
> "The baby doesn't belong to me. He belongs to the mom."
>
> How about going through a scenario with her and a baby doll at
home.
> Help her come up with ways of politely asking if she can touch.
Let
> her know it's okay to touch the clothes but
>
> > She wants to open the toys
> > in the store so she can look at them, I say not right now.
>
> How about "Those belong to the store."
>
> > She adopts a friend's toy and I
> > say no, she can't take it home.
>
> "That belongs to Sarah."
>
> In *some* cases kids want to hear "That is a cool toy!" just to
share
> that feeling with you. (This is where knowing your child is
helpful!
> Not all kids literally mean what they say, though in the case of
your
> daughter, it sounds like she does :-) Sometimes they want to hear,
> "Let's find out where they bought it."
>
> > It's not our house and she wants to open drawers and take
> > out tools.
>
> "Those belong to Aunt Jane. You need to ask permission first."
>
> But if she's not old enough to be polite, she shouldn't be in
those
> types of situations.
>
> > She wants to nurse while watching her movie in our uncomfortable
> > chair when I
> > suggest nursing in the bed while watching said movie.
>
> "That chair hurts my back."
>
> > We're out on our way somewhere
> > for a commitment and she's all of a sudden set on going
somewhere
> > else.
>
> "Absolutely. We can do that on the way back."
>
> "That sounds like fun. x is expecting us at 11. We'll be there for
an
> hour. We could stop there on the way back."
>
> > Says her cough
> > is gone because she's not coughing at the moment, and it's fine
to
> > go play at a friend's
> > house who doesn't want to catch a cold and I say no.
>
> You could call up the mom and ask if it's okay. Maybe the other
child
> has a cold too! Maybe the other mom is laid back about such things
> and figures the world's full of germs and colds will happen.
>
> It's all pretty much guess work on how long people are contagious
> with a cold. Here's a good article.
> Common Cold Contagious Period
>
> http://tinyurl.com/8y27mw
>
> Using the cough as a marker seems reasonable but coughs can
persist
> long after the other cold symptoms.
>
> I'm sure others can come up with some ideas!
>
> > When I do say no, I always suggest
> > an alternative, ask if she has any ideas on what else would she
> > could do instead.
>
> Instead of no, begin problem solving. If you begin with no, that's
> what she hears. The rest is just "blah blah blah."
>
> Give her information. Not as a no, but as, this is an obstacle
that
> needs tackled.
>
> > She
> > laughs and says 'no I don't' and goes on asking for what she
wants.
>
> She's being honest! :-)
>
>
> > Her good/overwhelmed
> > mood change is very quick -- if we're out of the house for an
hour
> > it's too long unless
> > we're at an unschooler's home where the atmosphere is closer to
> > that of home.
>
> Have you read:
>
> Raising Your Spirited Child
> http://tinyurl.com/5sut7p
>
> and The Explosive Child
> http://tinyurl.com/5wbvdx
>
>
> > So what does a mom do with a very little person who would rather
be
> > a hermit than follow
> > social conventions?
>
> Let her be a hermit for now. She's only 2.5! You don't need to
change
> her. Age will change her. Test out the waters occasionally. Take
her
> out where she won't butt heads with social rules. But don't
pressure
> her into social situations she's not yet developmentally ready for.
>
> > It's a control issue, I can see that, so how do you help a kid
feel
> > happy
> > and not out of control without saying "no" and without
saying 'yes'
> > too much?
>
> Part of the control issue is that she's 2.5 and has realized how
> little control she has over the world. She's discovered that she
can
> control the world through you. That's not a bad thing but since
she's
> so verbal, I think you can involve her more in the process of
getting
> to some form of yes rather than seeing only yes or no as answers
to
> her questions.
>
>
> > Is there a
> > golden ratio of yesses to no's? :)
>
> What golden ratio of yeses to nos do you want to hear from your
husband?
>
> I guess the pitfall of yes is that it doesn't involve kids in the
> thought process of making something happen.
>
> Joyce
>

Pamela Sorooshian

One major source of misunderstanding might be in terms of what our
ultimate goals are - what do we see as the benefits of unschooling?
What are we aiming for? We don't often state explicitly why we're
doing this.

A snippet from Paul:
>>
>> In general, I still find it hard to distinguish which of the radical
>> unschooling benefits come from the "educational unschooling" part,
>> and which come from the specific type of "radical parenting" part ...

I think the major benefits of unschooling (not doing school) are: the
preservation of natural curiosity and love of learning; confidence
that one's interests and passions matter; and the ability and courage
to pursue those interests and passions. The result of radical
unschooling parenting seems to me to be a list of virtues - the ones
that stand out most to me in radically unschooled young adults are:
compassion, confidence, cooperation, creativity, enthusiasm,
friendliness, helpfulness, idealism, joyfulness, kindness, respect,
responsibility, and tolerance.

I really don't think those kinds of personal characteristics come from
simply "not doing school." They develop as a direct result of daily
living in an environment that focuses far more on support and teamwork
and collaboration than on finding balance between competing or
conflicting wants and needs.

Balance as a goal isn't lofty enough. We're trying for more than
balance because, if we try only for balance, we will inevitably think
about how to trade off this child's interests against that child's
interests or the children's interests against the parents'. It becomes
very easy to automatically say no to children in the interest of
balance instead of defaulting to a more collaborative and supportive
approach in which we assume we can find a way to support everyone's
interests. Our aim is high.

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "yelenakaplan"
<kaplanyel@...> wrote:
>> Could you elaborate on this a bit? I feel like this is another
place
> I get lost sometimes. How do you begin with the obstacles without
> having 'no' energy? Do you mean describe the problem? Stepstools
and
> things like that we can handle, but lets say they did make a mom
> nervous. What's the next practical step after expressing that it
> makes you nervous?

Its tough to problem solve for an imaginary issue like this, bc we
can't ask mom "why do step stools make you nervous?" That is one of
the practical steps - asking yourself why/why not? Some of the time,
the answer ends up being "because my mom made Me do it that way"
or "well, everyone does it like this".

If a mom was concerned about a child climbing on a step stool I'd
wonder why - does she have a step stool that isn't very safe? Maybe
she needs to look at other varieties of step stool - like the kind
with a bar on the back for stability. Maybe she needs to be right
there while the child uses the stepstool for awhile, ready to put out
a steadying hand just in case. Is she concerned that once the child
gets the hang of the stepstool Nothing will be safe? I'd offer some
practical suggestions for making the home safer for a little
explorer. Is it a control issue on mom's part? A Lot of parenting
issues tie back to expectations of control. Those obstacles are
probably the most challenging of all! I'd suggest mom look for more
ways she can support the child in other areas - you don't have to
face all your demons at once, after all, you can start with the
little ones ;)

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)

almadoing

Sorry for coming in late - behind with emails.

I feel sympathy with the poster saying that she thinks she gets a
handle on unschooling then something comes up that makes her think
WTF. Sandra Dodd, who I hold in great esteem, often does this to me
on her list. I can't think of specific examples, but it has come up
for me a few times. What I have gained from this though is a shake up
feeling for myself of thinking that this is not simply a game and I
have to try and work out all the rules, apply them dutifully and be a
good unschooling parent. It makes me think about being a real and
authentic person - that whole thing about living by principles and
values rather than rules. Often, when I find myself thinking WTF I
have to really think much harder about what is being said.

I wish I could think of examples though, because there have been
times I would have loved to seek clarification but not been brave
enough.

Alison
DS (6) and DS (3)


--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> Or the pitfalls of trying to explain unschooling.
>
> What are the things that confused you about unschooling
> explanations? Where did we get the explanations wrong that got
you
> facing the wrong direction?
>
> The "No!" idea is a good example from the "What unschooling is"
> thread. Another is the idea of no arbitrary bedtimes that gets
heard
> as no bedtimes and then parents let their kids stay up all night.
>
> I'm going to be giving a talk on the parts of radical unschooling
> that we're still not explaining well, confusing explanations that
get
> people's thoughts muddled as we're trying to get them clear.
>
> If anyone has examples of explanations that gave you the wrong
> impression about radical unschooling practices I'd love to hear
them.
> Anything you wished we could have explained better initially.
Things
> that perhaps made it harder for you to understand unschooling.
>
> It can be parenting aspects or the "academic" aspects.
>
> Joyce
>

Holly

Thank you guys for this discussion. This email is exactly what I have been trying to share with my husband. He is still somewhat back and forth on unschooling. I think it is because he wants to see the great things I've pointed out in our children since focusing on living a radically unschooled life, but he is having a hard time leaving behind his previous conceptions of the "right way to raise children." This email articulates clearly and cohesively what I have been saying in a jumbled, piecemeal fashion.

Thanks, again.

Holly



-----Original Message-----
From: "Pamela Sorooshian" [pamsoroosh@...]
Date: 01/13/2009 04:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unschooling pitfalls

Note: Original message sent as attachment

------------------------------------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hermosaduendemama

Whoa! When I replied earlier, I had not read the full email that the
excerpt Pamela responded to came from. Although I originally took the
excerpt from a totally different perspective, it's personal value to
me still stands. I'm glad that some helpful discussion has risen from
this.

Holly
--- In [email protected], "Holly" <hollyr22@...>
wrote:
>
> Thank you guys for this discussion. This email is exactly what I
have been trying to share with my husband. He is still somewhat back
and forth on unschooling. I think it is because he wants to see the
great things I've pointed out in our children since focusing on
living a radically unschooled life, but he is having a hard time
leaving behind his previous conceptions of the "right way to raise
children." This email articulates clearly and cohesively what I have
been saying in a jumbled, piecemeal fashion.
>
> Thanks, again.
>
> Holly
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Pamela Sorooshian" [pamsoroosh@...]
> Date: 01/13/2009 04:21 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unschooling pitfalls
>
> Note: Original message sent as attachment
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Debt Consolidation
> Click to consolidate your debt in minutes, stop late or over-limit
fees, pay less.
>
http://tagline.excite.com/fc/BK72PcZaafJtlkUVimauUy0w57m6NekC535xo6OgW
Eo3yMptTMLaQm/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Holly" <hollyr22@...>
wrote:
>
> Thank you guys for this discussion. This email is exactly what I
have been trying to share with my husband. He is still somewhat back
and forth on unschooling. I think it is because he wants to see the
great things I've pointed out in our children since focusing on
living a radically unschooled life, but he is having a hard time
leaving behind his previous conceptions of the "right way to raise
children."
**********************

It is challenging to change gears. I think its harder for partners
who don't get to be home with the kids all day - they don't see as
much of the good stuff. They're more likely to see the tired, messy
hungry stuff! I used to be the at-home parent, and now I'm the work-a-
day parent. Its nice when I come home if my partner can tell me some
sweet story about the day - some happy moment, not necessarily
anything major, just a little something that lets me connect with my
family again.

I've also found it helpful to share with my partner both what works
well with the kids (dealing with problems, I mean) and my own
blunders. That lets him connect better with me and my process. It
helps us work better as a partnership - all of us together, I mean,
not just parents.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)

Faith Void

I need to think more about this. I have been thinking for several days but
not quite getting it together clearly what I need to say. I am hoping that
writing helps.

I had never heard of unschooling until about 3 years ago. But it is
something I have always done with my kids because I was damn sure not going
to be my parents, kwim? I practiced AP (first found out about it later, kind
of like unschooling). So I was already on the gentle respectful parenting
path. I never quite fit in as I was not the controlling AP parent. I never
did school at home or divided life up into sections like most of my peers. I
just didn't feel like it was necessary. My main parenting goal was to be a
guide for my kids. To "let" them retain their SELVES and support them in
thier loves and passions. So when I heard about unschooling it was like a
dream come true. Other people that were on the same path. And otehrs further
along in this journey. I was thrilled.

Here comes the problem for me. I started on Sandra's email list and started
feeling really about about my parenting. Feeling really inferior. I know
that it was/is my issue. I felt really confused about what I was doing and
tried to change things thinking I was hurting my kids. Things got really
crazy and weird in our lives and within our family. I was hard and at times
painful. I was thrilled to have found this group as it really helped me see
what I needed to see. It is helping me come back around to where I was and
even deeper place than before. I love that.

I know that I haven't quite gotten to a succinct statement about something
that specifically was misleading. I am still trying to figure some of that
out. I am kind of scared to go back to her group and see if through the eyes
Ihave know I can understand what I saw as misleading. I never posted on that
group, just read things.

Anyway that is my little story.

thanks Joyce, Pam, Ren, Kelly and many others for helping me figure this
out...

Faith

On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 6:14 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:

> Or the pitfalls of trying to explain unschooling.
>
> What are the things that confused you about unschooling
> explanations? Where did we get the explanations wrong that got you
> facing the wrong direction?
>
> The "No!" idea is a good example from the "What unschooling is"
> thread. Another is the idea of no arbitrary bedtimes that gets heard
> as no bedtimes and then parents let their kids stay up all night.
>
> I'm going to be giving a talk on the parts of radical unschooling
> that we're still not explaining well, confusing explanations that get
> people's thoughts muddled as we're trying to get them clear.
>
> If anyone has examples of explanations that gave you the wrong
> impression about radical unschooling practices I'd love to hear them.
> Anything you wished we could have explained better initially. Things
> that perhaps made it harder for you to understand unschooling.
>
> It can be parenting aspects or the "academic" aspects.
>
> Joyce
> _
>


--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Amy

My son will be 6 next week and I still make the mistake of trying to
offer him more social interaction than he desires. When I relax and
look at our life together, I realize this: we socialize with folks of
all ages. My son likes to play by himself ALOT! We are different in
that respect. My almost 2 yo daughter asks for friends saying "me
friends, me friends". Re-reading Raising Your Spirited Child as well
as Naomi Aldort's RAising Our Children, Raising OUrselves has been
extremely helpful.

The key to following my heart and honoring my children has been
confidence in myself and them. When I am able to go with this flow,
things do just that, they flow. When I am unconcerned with what
others think and I work with my family, things work.

We have been unschooling for almost a year now with many blunders and
misinterpretations on my part. We seem to be in a good place
currently, and I am being gentle on myself as well as my kiddos.

I realize this is kind of vague...any specific questions and I'll be
happy to expand. THanks for all of your support.


--- In [email protected], "batsonstudio"
<batsonstudio@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Yelena,
> I have never posted here before (I'm just learning about
unschooling), but I wanted to
> reply, because our 2.5 year olds sound a lot alike. Something that's
helped me immensely
> is reading about Highly Sensitive Children. It's helped me re-focus
on my son - as
> opposed to continually feeling that he was out-of-sync, or should be
more "social" - all
> imagined judgements in my own head. Now I focus on his reality -
sharp as a tack, funny,
> very loving with me, papa, and grandmama, and most comfortable
inside the family
> bubble. And I tell myself a lot - "chill out, he's only TWO!"
>
> Elaine Aron wrote a whole book about Highly Sensitive Children. Her
website is:
> http://www.hsperson.com/pages/child.htm
>
> An article about HSCs in Mothering:
>
http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/child_health/highly-sensitive.html
>
> Someone else recently posted this about unschooling an HSC:
> http://www.livingjoyfully.ca/anneo/Highly_Sensitive_Shine.htm
>
> Take care,
> Virginia
> mom to Griffin, 2.5
>
> --- In [email protected], "yelenakaplan"
<kaplanyel@> wrote:
>
> We don't leave the house very often right now because she has made
the connection
> between outside (lots of rules and no's) and at home (lots of
yesses and fun).
>
> She's a kid who knows exactly what she wants, exactly -- it's a
blessing mostly and a
> curse in these situations.
>
> Her good/overwhelmed mood change is very quick -- if we're out of
the house for an hour
> it's too long unless we're at an unschooler's home where the
atmosphere is closer to that
> of home.
>
> So what does a mom do with a very little person who would rather be
a hermit than follow
> social conventions?
>
> Yelena
>

Heather & Markus Schleidt

I just received the book Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves in the mail. Can't wait to read it - it got tons of great reviews on Amazon!!!

To: [email protected]: naturalmamaof2@...: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 02:55:26 +0000Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unschooling pitfalls



My son will be 6 next week and I still make the mistake of trying tooffer him more social interaction than he desires. When I relax andlook at our life together, I realize this: we socialize with folks ofall ages. My son likes to play by himself ALOT! We are different inthat respect. My almost 2 yo daughter asks for friends saying "mefriends, me friends". Re-reading Raising Your Spirited Child as wellas Naomi Aldort's RAising Our Children, Raising OUrselves has beenextremely helpful.The key to following my heart and honoring my children has beenconfidence in myself and them. When I am able to go with this flow,things do just that, they flow. When I am unconcerned with whatothers think and I work with my family, things work. We have been unschooling for almost a year now with many blunders andmisinterpretations on my part. We seem to be in a good placecurrently, and I am being gentle on myself as well as my kiddos. I realize this is kind of vague...any specific questions and I'll behappy to expand. THanks for all of your support. --- In [email protected], "batsonstudio"<batsonstudio@...> wrote:>> Hi Yelena, > I have never posted here before (I'm just learning aboutunschooling), but I wanted to > reply, because our 2.5 year olds sound a lot alike. Something that'shelped me immensely > is reading about Highly Sensitive Children. It's helped me re-focuson my son - as > opposed to continually feeling that he was out-of-sync, or should bemore "social" - all > imagined judgements in my own head. Now I focus on his reality -sharp as a tack, funny, > very loving with me, papa, and grandmama, and most comfortableinside the family > bubble. And I tell myself a lot - "chill out, he's only TWO!"> > Elaine Aron wrote a whole book about Highly Sensitive Children. Herwebsite is: > http://www.hsperson.com/pages/child.htm> > An article about HSCs in Mothering: >http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/child_health/highly-sensitive.html> > Someone else recently posted this about unschooling an HSC: > http://www.livingjoyfully.ca/anneo/Highly_Sensitive_Shine.htm> > Take care, > Virginia> mom to Griffin, 2.5> > --- In [email protected], "yelenakaplan"<kaplanyel@> wrote:> > We don't leave the house very often right now because she has madethe connection > between outside (lots of rules and no's) and at home (lots ofyesses and fun). > > She's a kid who knows exactly what she wants, exactly -- it's ablessing mostly and a > curse in these situations. > > Her good/overwhelmed mood change is very quick -- if we're out ofthe house for an hour > it's too long unless we're at an unschooler's home where theatmosphere is closer to that > of home. > > So what does a mom do with a very little person who would rather bea hermit than follow > social conventions? > > Yelena>






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jodi Bezzola

~~I just received the book Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves in the mail.  Can't wait to read it - it got tons of great reviews on Amazon!!!~~
 
I was just saying to an unschooling friend today that this is one of my favourite parenting books because it brings me back to the truth that my kids are SO okay just the way they are - it's ME that needs the work! <G>
 
Jodi





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa

Funny, I just got it too. I should get cracking and read it! Can't
wait.
Melissa

--- In [email protected], Jodi Bezzola
<jodibezzola@...> wrote:
>
> ~~I just received the book Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves
in the mail.  Can't wait to read it - it got tons of great reviews on
Amazon!!!~~
>  
> I was just saying to an unschooling friend today that this is one
of my favourite parenting books because it brings me back to the
truth that my kids are SO okay just the way they are - it's ME that
needs the work! <G>
>  
> Jodi
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>