non unschooling friend needs help w/ dd
DJ250
Ok, so my homeschooling friend has a situation w/ her daughter that she'd like advice on. Here's what she told me:
DD said she wanted a bunny (this is like 2 years ago) and even came up w/ a list for caring for it ("I will...."). Now she's iffy on the feeding and cleaning, not as diligent. Mom wants her to hold up her end of the bargain. DD came up w/ "let's swap chores" w/ Mom. Mom said ok. Then, dd wants to change back. Mom loves the rabbit and is thinking of going ahead with doing the rabbit care chores for her but is not sure she feels ok with doing so with no strings attached. She's afraid it's going to teach her it's ok to give up on your end of the bargain when you made one. Dad says if dd doesn't do the work, bunny goes bye-bye.
Thanks,
~Melissa :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
DD said she wanted a bunny (this is like 2 years ago) and even came up w/ a list for caring for it ("I will...."). Now she's iffy on the feeding and cleaning, not as diligent. Mom wants her to hold up her end of the bargain. DD came up w/ "let's swap chores" w/ Mom. Mom said ok. Then, dd wants to change back. Mom loves the rabbit and is thinking of going ahead with doing the rabbit care chores for her but is not sure she feels ok with doing so with no strings attached. She's afraid it's going to teach her it's ok to give up on your end of the bargain when you made one. Dad says if dd doesn't do the work, bunny goes bye-bye.
Thanks,
~Melissa :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 18, 2008, at 8:11 PM, DJ250 wrote:
common idea that we teach responsibility by making a child stick with
something.
As adults, there isn't a single responsibility we have that we can't
drop. There might be dire consequences to the thing or our
reputation! but we have the freedom to drop them. We have the freedom
to choose to what level we will maintain our responsibilities.
Fathers and mothers could choose to walk out on their kids. But
everyday the ones who stay have chosen to stay. There's no authority
making them ready to send them to their rooms if they drop their
responsibility to their kids. They *could* empty the bank account and
take off to Mexico. But they make the choice to stay.
A responsibility is something we feel we need to put effort into
doing because the benefit of doing outweighs the benefit of not
doing. That feeling of responsibility isn't something we can impose
on someone else. We can make children go through the motions of
responsibility, but we don't grow those feelings by making them do
what we tell them (or even by making them follow through on what they
agreed.)
If we don't have that freedom to drop a responsibility, then what
we're doing isn't a responsibility but forced labor.
No matter how much kids beg and promise they'll do the work of a pet,
they just aren't capable of understanding the years of commitment
involved in keeping a pet. The daughter already understands the pet
was more work than she thought. (That doesn't mean emotion might not
overwhelm her and make her forget when she sees some big brown puppy
eyes ;-) But that doesn't mean she hasn't absorbed something
important from the experience with the rabbit.) Forcing her to
continue to care for the rabbit won't make the message that the task
was bigger than she thought any clearer. It could very well make her
resent the rabbit (and it's quality of life will go down.) It will
model for her that it's great to be the one in power who can make
someone else do a yucky job you don't want to do and it sucks to be
the one without power who is made to do it.
Despite what conventional parenting wisdom says, kids don't need to
be made to act responsible in order to become responsible. That's not
just a theory! Unschoolers *know* they don't need forced and have
seen the positive results.
But unschoolers don't then say "Whatever!" to whatever kids do. We're
engaged in the process of helping them learn. What unschoolers do
*instead* of making kids stick with a responsibility, is to see each
attempt at responsibility as a step in learning responsibility. We
talk about the task they're taking on and who is depending on them to
follow through. (This is *not* a guilt trip! It's information.) We
trust that they don't want to hurt others but we accept that they're
young and may not *yet* be capable of fully grasping what they're
taking on. We are there to help them. We're their partners. We build
up trust and they know that we're there supporting them.
When we're partners, kids do grasp -- as they're developmentally able
-- when we pick up the slack for them. They appreciate our help
because we don't do it resentfully to make them feel guilty. (Forced
guilt often leads to anger at the one who is making you feel guilty.)
Appreciation is not a feeling we can force kids to have! It's
something that grows because our kids trust that we're truly trying
to help them.
The way an unschooler might approach this is for the mom to
understand that her daughter didn't understand how much work was
involved. A dialogue might go:
Mom: "The bunny is more work than you expected."
Daughter: "Yes, it's really smelly and it poops everywhere. The cage
takes hours to clean and I have to do it everyday! And sometimes the
lettuce is all gross and I have to pick off the rotten parts."
Mom: "What are some of our options of getting the care the bunny needs?"
(This is *not* a trick question to lead the daughter to the "right"
answer of agreeing to take better care. It's a real question. Really
explore all options, even off the wall ones like releasing the bunny
into the wild. They can talk about the consequences. *All* options
have good and bad parts and it's good problem solving to honestly
look at them rather than rejecting them right off.)
Mom: "Well, since I do like the bunny, I don't mind taking care of it."
Daughter: "I'll do the laundry for you!"
Mom: "I do appreciate the offer but it's not necessary."
(Mom shouldn't hesitate to ask the daughter to help with the rabbit
care. But it should be a real question and the daughter should be
able to say no. But make it easy for the daughter to help. Make
caring for the rabbit a pleasant experience for all, including the
rabbit!)
(The beauty of this -papproach is that we model problem solving for
kids rather than top down management. :-) They get to see how to
approach a problem and seek out solutions rather than the model of
imposing a solution on the less powerful that they often do see and
experience.)
Written out like that it sounds way too formal! It should be natural
conversation. And in an unschooling home it's likely that dialog
might happen over time since we don't leave them to their own devices
and only jump in when there's a problem. We're there with them, being
their partner. Not necessarily at their side all the time, but aware
of what's going on with them and talking about other solutions to
little problems before it gets to the hands up "I can't take this any
more!" stage.
If there is a "sit down talk", a good thing to read first is Sandra
Dodd's essay "Leaning on a truck":
http://sandradodd.com/truck
And, yes, my 17 yo daughter does take her responsibilities seriously
even though I never made her :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> DD said she wanted a bunny (this is like 2 years ago) and even cameI think what's making the situation hard to see clearly is the very
> up w/ a list for caring for it ("I will...."). Now she's iffy on
> the feeding and cleaning, not as diligent. Mom wants her to hold
> up her end of the bargain. DD came up w/ "let's swap chores" w/
> Mom. Mom said ok. Then, dd wants to change back. Mom loves the
> rabbit and is thinking of going ahead with doing the rabbit care
> chores for her but is not sure she feels ok with doing so with no
> strings attached. She's afraid it's going to teach her it's ok to
> give up on your end of the bargain when you made one. Dad says if
> dd doesn't do the work, bunny goes bye-bye.
common idea that we teach responsibility by making a child stick with
something.
As adults, there isn't a single responsibility we have that we can't
drop. There might be dire consequences to the thing or our
reputation! but we have the freedom to drop them. We have the freedom
to choose to what level we will maintain our responsibilities.
Fathers and mothers could choose to walk out on their kids. But
everyday the ones who stay have chosen to stay. There's no authority
making them ready to send them to their rooms if they drop their
responsibility to their kids. They *could* empty the bank account and
take off to Mexico. But they make the choice to stay.
A responsibility is something we feel we need to put effort into
doing because the benefit of doing outweighs the benefit of not
doing. That feeling of responsibility isn't something we can impose
on someone else. We can make children go through the motions of
responsibility, but we don't grow those feelings by making them do
what we tell them (or even by making them follow through on what they
agreed.)
If we don't have that freedom to drop a responsibility, then what
we're doing isn't a responsibility but forced labor.
No matter how much kids beg and promise they'll do the work of a pet,
they just aren't capable of understanding the years of commitment
involved in keeping a pet. The daughter already understands the pet
was more work than she thought. (That doesn't mean emotion might not
overwhelm her and make her forget when she sees some big brown puppy
eyes ;-) But that doesn't mean she hasn't absorbed something
important from the experience with the rabbit.) Forcing her to
continue to care for the rabbit won't make the message that the task
was bigger than she thought any clearer. It could very well make her
resent the rabbit (and it's quality of life will go down.) It will
model for her that it's great to be the one in power who can make
someone else do a yucky job you don't want to do and it sucks to be
the one without power who is made to do it.
Despite what conventional parenting wisdom says, kids don't need to
be made to act responsible in order to become responsible. That's not
just a theory! Unschoolers *know* they don't need forced and have
seen the positive results.
But unschoolers don't then say "Whatever!" to whatever kids do. We're
engaged in the process of helping them learn. What unschoolers do
*instead* of making kids stick with a responsibility, is to see each
attempt at responsibility as a step in learning responsibility. We
talk about the task they're taking on and who is depending on them to
follow through. (This is *not* a guilt trip! It's information.) We
trust that they don't want to hurt others but we accept that they're
young and may not *yet* be capable of fully grasping what they're
taking on. We are there to help them. We're their partners. We build
up trust and they know that we're there supporting them.
When we're partners, kids do grasp -- as they're developmentally able
-- when we pick up the slack for them. They appreciate our help
because we don't do it resentfully to make them feel guilty. (Forced
guilt often leads to anger at the one who is making you feel guilty.)
Appreciation is not a feeling we can force kids to have! It's
something that grows because our kids trust that we're truly trying
to help them.
The way an unschooler might approach this is for the mom to
understand that her daughter didn't understand how much work was
involved. A dialogue might go:
Mom: "The bunny is more work than you expected."
Daughter: "Yes, it's really smelly and it poops everywhere. The cage
takes hours to clean and I have to do it everyday! And sometimes the
lettuce is all gross and I have to pick off the rotten parts."
Mom: "What are some of our options of getting the care the bunny needs?"
(This is *not* a trick question to lead the daughter to the "right"
answer of agreeing to take better care. It's a real question. Really
explore all options, even off the wall ones like releasing the bunny
into the wild. They can talk about the consequences. *All* options
have good and bad parts and it's good problem solving to honestly
look at them rather than rejecting them right off.)
Mom: "Well, since I do like the bunny, I don't mind taking care of it."
Daughter: "I'll do the laundry for you!"
Mom: "I do appreciate the offer but it's not necessary."
(Mom shouldn't hesitate to ask the daughter to help with the rabbit
care. But it should be a real question and the daughter should be
able to say no. But make it easy for the daughter to help. Make
caring for the rabbit a pleasant experience for all, including the
rabbit!)
(The beauty of this -papproach is that we model problem solving for
kids rather than top down management. :-) They get to see how to
approach a problem and seek out solutions rather than the model of
imposing a solution on the less powerful that they often do see and
experience.)
Written out like that it sounds way too formal! It should be natural
conversation. And in an unschooling home it's likely that dialog
might happen over time since we don't leave them to their own devices
and only jump in when there's a problem. We're there with them, being
their partner. Not necessarily at their side all the time, but aware
of what's going on with them and talking about other solutions to
little problems before it gets to the hands up "I can't take this any
more!" stage.
If there is a "sit down talk", a good thing to read first is Sandra
Dodd's essay "Leaning on a truck":
http://sandradodd.com/truck
And, yes, my 17 yo daughter does take her responsibilities seriously
even though I never made her :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
I run the box office at our local community college theater. Performer/
students who are in the various shows at the college are required to
do some kind of crew work during the semester and box office is one of
their options. So, at the beginning of the semester they sign up for
the days/hours they agree to work. I sign up four students for every
hour that the box office is open, even though I only need one student
in there with me at a time. The reason I sign up four is that it is
extremely likely that only 1 out of 4 will actually show up. I give
them a calendar with the days/hours they've signed up for. I call them
a week or so before each show to remind them and they always say,
"Yes, I'll be there." Then I text message them the day before if it
has been a week or two since their last work time. I never ever have
had more than two show up at once. Almost always I get one. Sometimes
I get none. When they do show up, they often show up as much as an
hour late.
Yesterday Roxana and Rosie were were saying that their musical theater
techniques course is so frustrating because so many students in there
are so lazy and whiny and don't pay attention and don't cooperate.
They said they could sort of understand it if they were being made to
be there, but this isn't a required class for anybody. Rosie and Rox
were saying they just don't GET it. Some specific examples: students
constantly talking so the director has to wait for them to be quiet,
not being prepared - not having their music with them and not having
learned lines or practiced dance steps at all, skipping lots of
classes and then asking to be helped to get caught up during class,
wearing flip-flops to class even though the teacher has specifically
told that student repeatedly to wear other shoes that they can dance
in, coming in very late and being disruptive, not paying any attention
to directions - needing to have them repeated over and over, not
taking notes and having to be told the same directions again at the
next class/rehearsal. All of this while talking loudly and complaining
a lot about things like not liking this song, not liking the part
they're given, not liking the accompanist, not liking the room or the
air temperature or the chairs. They blatantly disregard the directors
requests - like, "Stay in your places," while he works with a smaller
group - they leave and go out to get water or just go sit down and
when he turns back he has to wait to get the group back together again.
They really are sort of bewildered by why the other students are like
this. So I asked them why they think they don't do those things.
They had a hard time articulating exactly why, but Roxana said it is
because they see the big picture - they understand that they are all
going to get the most they can out of the class if they all
collaborate and work hard and pay attention. She said, "It is just the
right way to behave, I don't know, I can't understand why they don't
all see that." She said they are all going to be on stage, putting on
a show in front of an audience, at the end of the semester, and she
wants it to be the best it can be - she definitely doesn't want to be
embarrassed by it. And she said, "I would be so ashamed of myself to
behave the way they do - I wouldn't have respect for myself."
There is another girl in the class and I've known her well since she
was about 7 or 8 years old - very relaxed homeschooled girl who has
also been treated with great respect and support, never shamed or
punished. She is exactly like my girls - pays attention, does what
she's supposed to do, goes the extra mile, is cheerfully and
completely responsible.
The interesting thing to me is that these are kids who have not lived
with shame, they have not been parented by people who belittled them
at all, and yet they have internalized the desire to avoid feeing
ashamed. The other kids who have probably had conventional parents and
conventional schooling do not seem to be ashamed of themselves at
all. They are not embarrassed to have the director say, "I've told
you three time already to wear other shoes. Please, next time, no flip-
flops." The student just smiles and says, "Oops, sorry, okay," but
doesn't seem genuinely sorry or at all embarrassed. When the teacher
turns around and says, "Hey, I told you to stay in your places," they
say, "I was tired, I wanted to sit down," or "I needed a drink," as
they put their cell phone back in their pockets. No sense of
embarrassment that they are holding up the class. No genuine apology,
ever.
Roxana once left her music notebook in the theater and the director
picked it up. Rox was frantically looking for it, later, and had to
call and ask him if he'd seen it. He had it and said, "You need to
keep better track of this." She took THAT as harsh criticism and ever
since worried that he would think of her as someone who was careless
with her stuff.
-pam
students who are in the various shows at the college are required to
do some kind of crew work during the semester and box office is one of
their options. So, at the beginning of the semester they sign up for
the days/hours they agree to work. I sign up four students for every
hour that the box office is open, even though I only need one student
in there with me at a time. The reason I sign up four is that it is
extremely likely that only 1 out of 4 will actually show up. I give
them a calendar with the days/hours they've signed up for. I call them
a week or so before each show to remind them and they always say,
"Yes, I'll be there." Then I text message them the day before if it
has been a week or two since their last work time. I never ever have
had more than two show up at once. Almost always I get one. Sometimes
I get none. When they do show up, they often show up as much as an
hour late.
Yesterday Roxana and Rosie were were saying that their musical theater
techniques course is so frustrating because so many students in there
are so lazy and whiny and don't pay attention and don't cooperate.
They said they could sort of understand it if they were being made to
be there, but this isn't a required class for anybody. Rosie and Rox
were saying they just don't GET it. Some specific examples: students
constantly talking so the director has to wait for them to be quiet,
not being prepared - not having their music with them and not having
learned lines or practiced dance steps at all, skipping lots of
classes and then asking to be helped to get caught up during class,
wearing flip-flops to class even though the teacher has specifically
told that student repeatedly to wear other shoes that they can dance
in, coming in very late and being disruptive, not paying any attention
to directions - needing to have them repeated over and over, not
taking notes and having to be told the same directions again at the
next class/rehearsal. All of this while talking loudly and complaining
a lot about things like not liking this song, not liking the part
they're given, not liking the accompanist, not liking the room or the
air temperature or the chairs. They blatantly disregard the directors
requests - like, "Stay in your places," while he works with a smaller
group - they leave and go out to get water or just go sit down and
when he turns back he has to wait to get the group back together again.
They really are sort of bewildered by why the other students are like
this. So I asked them why they think they don't do those things.
They had a hard time articulating exactly why, but Roxana said it is
because they see the big picture - they understand that they are all
going to get the most they can out of the class if they all
collaborate and work hard and pay attention. She said, "It is just the
right way to behave, I don't know, I can't understand why they don't
all see that." She said they are all going to be on stage, putting on
a show in front of an audience, at the end of the semester, and she
wants it to be the best it can be - she definitely doesn't want to be
embarrassed by it. And she said, "I would be so ashamed of myself to
behave the way they do - I wouldn't have respect for myself."
There is another girl in the class and I've known her well since she
was about 7 or 8 years old - very relaxed homeschooled girl who has
also been treated with great respect and support, never shamed or
punished. She is exactly like my girls - pays attention, does what
she's supposed to do, goes the extra mile, is cheerfully and
completely responsible.
The interesting thing to me is that these are kids who have not lived
with shame, they have not been parented by people who belittled them
at all, and yet they have internalized the desire to avoid feeing
ashamed. The other kids who have probably had conventional parents and
conventional schooling do not seem to be ashamed of themselves at
all. They are not embarrassed to have the director say, "I've told
you three time already to wear other shoes. Please, next time, no flip-
flops." The student just smiles and says, "Oops, sorry, okay," but
doesn't seem genuinely sorry or at all embarrassed. When the teacher
turns around and says, "Hey, I told you to stay in your places," they
say, "I was tired, I wanted to sit down," or "I needed a drink," as
they put their cell phone back in their pockets. No sense of
embarrassment that they are holding up the class. No genuine apology,
ever.
Roxana once left her music notebook in the theater and the director
picked it up. Rox was frantically looking for it, later, and had to
call and ask him if he'd seen it. He had it and said, "You need to
keep better track of this." She took THAT as harsh criticism and ever
since worried that he would think of her as someone who was careless
with her stuff.
-pam
On Nov 19, 2008, at 3:47 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
> But unschoolers don't then say "Whatever!" to whatever kids do. We're
> engaged in the process of helping them learn. What unschoolers do
> *instead* of making kids stick with a responsibility, is to see each
> attempt at responsibility as a step in learning responsibility. We
> talk about the task they're taking on and who is depending on them to
> follow through. (This is *not* a guilt trip! It's information.) We
> trust that they don't want to hurt others but we accept that they're
> young and may not *yet* be capable of fully grasping what they're
> taking on. We are there to help them. We're their partners. We build
> up trust and they know that we're there supporting them.
diana jenner
I can only speak of this as it happens in our family... and it doesn't much
look like what you've described!
Hayden (now 10) has wanted a dog for the most of his life. *I* was not
ready for us to have a dog!! About a year ago, I was ready to have *a
conversation* about a dog and our work really started. I watched The Dog
Whisperer faithfully, read both of his books, poured over multiple websites
re: dog care & training, and shared daily what I was gathering and
learning. As a family, we looked at breeds & especially activity levels, we
took perfect pet quizzes & finally narrowed down our choices.
As grownups, we had our own conversations about the absurdity of making a
young human fully responsible for the life of another being -- especially
another being *WE* didn't even have experience caring for. We knew this was
a grownup commitment to our family or no commitment at all. (I wasn't even
going to invite resentment into the equation!).
We got Charlie, a 4 year old Newfie mix, on June 15. The most of the
dog-care responsibilities have fallen to me: I gotta a good grasp on what it
takes to foster a balanced dog; I'm figuring it out "on the job" and
modeling for both Scotty and Hayden; Hayden has long had a "watch first, act
second" sense of learning; we're getting more physical exercise than ever
before (tired dog=happy family) -- even Hayden's volunteering to run the dog
on the bike occasionally (because we make it fun to take the dog out --
interesting books on tape, balls to play with at the park - convienently 1/2
way thru the walk, apples to collect and feed the neighbor cows).
I really like the way it's playing out at our house... naturally and *fun*
-- none of that power/ultimatum ickiness!
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
look like what you've described!
Hayden (now 10) has wanted a dog for the most of his life. *I* was not
ready for us to have a dog!! About a year ago, I was ready to have *a
conversation* about a dog and our work really started. I watched The Dog
Whisperer faithfully, read both of his books, poured over multiple websites
re: dog care & training, and shared daily what I was gathering and
learning. As a family, we looked at breeds & especially activity levels, we
took perfect pet quizzes & finally narrowed down our choices.
As grownups, we had our own conversations about the absurdity of making a
young human fully responsible for the life of another being -- especially
another being *WE* didn't even have experience caring for. We knew this was
a grownup commitment to our family or no commitment at all. (I wasn't even
going to invite resentment into the equation!).
We got Charlie, a 4 year old Newfie mix, on June 15. The most of the
dog-care responsibilities have fallen to me: I gotta a good grasp on what it
takes to foster a balanced dog; I'm figuring it out "on the job" and
modeling for both Scotty and Hayden; Hayden has long had a "watch first, act
second" sense of learning; we're getting more physical exercise than ever
before (tired dog=happy family) -- even Hayden's volunteering to run the dog
on the bike occasionally (because we make it fun to take the dog out --
interesting books on tape, balls to play with at the park - convienently 1/2
way thru the walk, apples to collect and feed the neighbor cows).
I really like the way it's playing out at our house... naturally and *fun*
-- none of that power/ultimatum ickiness!
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 5:11 PM, DJ250 <dj250@...> wrote:
> Ok, so my homeschooling friend has a situation w/ her daughter that
> she'd like advice on. Here's what she told me:
>
> DD said she wanted a bunny (this is like 2 years ago) and even came up w/ a
> list for caring for it ("I will...."). Now she's iffy on the feeding and
> cleaning, not as diligent. Mom wants her to hold up her end of the bargain.
> DD came up w/ "let's swap chores" w/ Mom. Mom said ok. Then, dd wants to
> change back. Mom loves the rabbit and is thinking of going ahead with doing
> the rabbit care chores for her but is not sure she feels ok with doing so
> with no strings attached. She's afraid it's going to teach her it's ok to
> give up on your end of the bargain when you made one. Dad says if dd doesn't
> do the work, bunny goes bye-bye.
> .
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]