Skin color and self-esteem
[email protected]
My 8yo dd is African American and the rest of our family is Caucasian. We got an American Girl doll catalog in the mail today and I told Kayla I would order her a doll. She's still trying to decide which one she wants, but she gravitates to the blond-and-blue-eyed ones. Upon thinking about it, I realized she *never* has been drawn to a doll that looks like her. All her dolls have light hair and skin, and I don't think she has ever even looked at anything else. Do you see this as a problem with her self-esteem, or am I making too much out of this? African Americans are the minority here in Utah, but Kayla does have a good friend who AA and was also adopted into a white family. I would love some opinions on if or how I should address this.
Thanks,
Carol
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks,
Carol
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Why do all her dolls have light hair and skin?
There are plenty of doll options that are brown skinned, and I made it a point of buying them for my girls even tho they are white. I wanted them to have the whole array of possibilites. I bought dark skinned baby dolls, black barbies, whatever.
At this point, you could ask her if she wants a doll who looks like her or not. Maybe that is not important to her. If she likes dolls, I would probably buy her some other dolls as well that are darker skinned. If you can't find them in Utah, you can probably get them online. Or ask this list. Where I live they are everywhere, as I live in CA where there is a good level of diversity.
--
Kathryn
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: mykaylabee@...
There are plenty of doll options that are brown skinned, and I made it a point of buying them for my girls even tho they are white. I wanted them to have the whole array of possibilites. I bought dark skinned baby dolls, black barbies, whatever.
At this point, you could ask her if she wants a doll who looks like her or not. Maybe that is not important to her. If she likes dolls, I would probably buy her some other dolls as well that are darker skinned. If you can't find them in Utah, you can probably get them online. Or ask this list. Where I live they are everywhere, as I live in CA where there is a good level of diversity.
--
Kathryn
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: mykaylabee@...
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My 8yo dd is African American and the rest of our family is Caucasian. We got
> an American Girl doll catalog in the mail today and I told Kayla I would order
> her a doll. She's still trying to decide which one she wants, but she
> gravitates to the blond-and-blue-eyed ones. Upon thinking about it, I realized
> she *never* has been drawn to a doll that looks like her. All her dolls have
> light hair and skin, and I don't think she has ever even looked at anything
> else. Do you see this as a problem with her self-esteem, or am I making too
> much out of this? African Americans are the minority here in Utah, but Kayla
> does have a good friend who AA and was also adopted into a white family. I
> would love some opinions on if or how I should address this.
>
> Thanks,
> Carol
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[email protected]
-------------- Original message --------------
From: airokat@...
Why do all her dolls have light hair and skin?
******************************************************
That's my point, she doesn't *want* dolls with skin like hers, and it just makes me wonder if her self-esteem is suffering in some way because all she wants are light-skinned dolls.
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From: airokat@...
Why do all her dolls have light hair and skin?
******************************************************
That's my point, she doesn't *want* dolls with skin like hers, and it just makes me wonder if her self-esteem is suffering in some way because all she wants are light-skinned dolls.
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 8, 2008, at 6:23 PM, mykaylabee@... wrote:
Africans, wouldn't it make sense that she'd want a doll that looked
like her friends and family?
If an Earthing were growing up among aliens, wouldn't they want a
doll to represent another playmate?
As a child, I didn't want another me. I wanted my toys to be my
friends! ;-)
I think it would actually be unusual -- though certainly nothing
wrong -- if a child (before a certain age) not only recognized they
were profoundly different in appearance but that their surface made a
difference and that they'd want to be surrounded by others that had
*their* same superficial difference. Why? Why would the *child's*
superficial difference matter? (Noticing *other's* differences can
come early. But, I mean, a child (before a certain age) looking at
her self and saying "I don't fit in with you.")
I'm thinking there's a stage kids go through when they need to
embrace how everyone is the same. It's comforting being part of the
big group where differences don't matter. But then they move onto
more of a self awareness of how they're unique.
The stages shouldn't be rushed or artificially extended. Let her be
your guide for when she's ready to explore what's unique about her.
But before that she needs the grounding that she's the same.
I'm picturing a well meaning alien mother thinking her Earthling
child needs some Earth identity and *skewing* their stories and toys
to Earth things so they would have something to identify with. It
would be like saying "No, see, you're different from us. You
shouldn't be identifying with the ones you love. You should be
identifying with these total strangers."
Give her an opportunity to experience lots of different cultures,
just as you would your other children. Then when she starts asking
questions and showing interest in people who look like her, you can
take it from there, using her as your guide.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> All her dolls have light hair and skin, and I don't think she hasTry turning it around. If a European child were growing up among
> ever even looked at anything else. Do you see this as a problem
> with her self-esteem, or am I making too much out of this?
Africans, wouldn't it make sense that she'd want a doll that looked
like her friends and family?
If an Earthing were growing up among aliens, wouldn't they want a
doll to represent another playmate?
As a child, I didn't want another me. I wanted my toys to be my
friends! ;-)
I think it would actually be unusual -- though certainly nothing
wrong -- if a child (before a certain age) not only recognized they
were profoundly different in appearance but that their surface made a
difference and that they'd want to be surrounded by others that had
*their* same superficial difference. Why? Why would the *child's*
superficial difference matter? (Noticing *other's* differences can
come early. But, I mean, a child (before a certain age) looking at
her self and saying "I don't fit in with you.")
I'm thinking there's a stage kids go through when they need to
embrace how everyone is the same. It's comforting being part of the
big group where differences don't matter. But then they move onto
more of a self awareness of how they're unique.
The stages shouldn't be rushed or artificially extended. Let her be
your guide for when she's ready to explore what's unique about her.
But before that she needs the grounding that she's the same.
I'm picturing a well meaning alien mother thinking her Earthling
child needs some Earth identity and *skewing* their stories and toys
to Earth things so they would have something to identify with. It
would be like saying "No, see, you're different from us. You
shouldn't be identifying with the ones you love. You should be
identifying with these total strangers."
Give her an opportunity to experience lots of different cultures,
just as you would your other children. Then when she starts asking
questions and showing interest in people who look like her, you can
take it from there, using her as your guide.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maisha Khalfani
Im not sure how to approach this here. It can be a loaded issue.
In general, African Americans have self esteem issues when it comes to skin
color, hair, etc, etc. The standard of beauty in this country generally
doesnt represent us.
I do agree with Joyce that the reason your daughter likes the fairer skinned
dolls is because she is accustomed to seeing people who look like the dolls.
There is some rationale to that.
Adding to that: African American girls who grow up in African American
families also gravitate towards blonde/brunette dolls with lighter eyes.
Far too many studies have been done to show that by age 6 African American
girls dont see themselves as pretty when compared to their Caucasian
counterparts. So its not just your daughter, and its not just because
shes around Caucasians. Its a deep societal problem, sadly.
I would encourage you to buy her dolls of all different hues. Dark to
light, Asian, African, European, Hispanic. Just introduce the world to her.
Make it less about color and more about human differences and commonalities.
There are some great multicultural/multiethnic websites to buy dolls from:
http://www.dollslikeme.com/
http://store.americangirl.com/agshop/static/home.jsf
http://www.ethnicdolls.com/
http://www.pattycakedoll.com/
Namasté
be at peace,
Maisha
Safiya (9), Dakari (8), Khalid (5), Khidar (3)
<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures
As long as the mind does not become obsessed with good and bad, you will
realize that all things are basically just as they are supposed to be.
~ Ta-mei (ca.805)
Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender, thoughtful and
affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service. Love is
more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a present.
~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In general, African Americans have self esteem issues when it comes to skin
color, hair, etc, etc. The standard of beauty in this country generally
doesnt represent us.
I do agree with Joyce that the reason your daughter likes the fairer skinned
dolls is because she is accustomed to seeing people who look like the dolls.
There is some rationale to that.
Adding to that: African American girls who grow up in African American
families also gravitate towards blonde/brunette dolls with lighter eyes.
Far too many studies have been done to show that by age 6 African American
girls dont see themselves as pretty when compared to their Caucasian
counterparts. So its not just your daughter, and its not just because
shes around Caucasians. Its a deep societal problem, sadly.
I would encourage you to buy her dolls of all different hues. Dark to
light, Asian, African, European, Hispanic. Just introduce the world to her.
Make it less about color and more about human differences and commonalities.
There are some great multicultural/multiethnic websites to buy dolls from:
http://www.dollslikeme.com/
http://store.americangirl.com/agshop/static/home.jsf
http://www.ethnicdolls.com/
http://www.pattycakedoll.com/
Namasté
be at peace,
Maisha
Safiya (9), Dakari (8), Khalid (5), Khidar (3)
<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures
As long as the mind does not become obsessed with good and bad, you will
realize that all things are basically just as they are supposed to be.
~ Ta-mei (ca.805)
Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender, thoughtful and
affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service. Love is
more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a present.
~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin
I'm new to unschooling and don't know if I have any advice to give. But
I am also raising African American children in a mostly European
descended context. Since I've been involved in the family I have tried
to make a point to offer them dolls of all different colors/cultures
(Asian, etc.). They also had various baby dolls already when I joined
the family: both blue-eyed and various shades of brown skin.
They go through phases, sometimes expressing great hostility to their
brown-skinned baby dolls and "liking" only their blond, blue-eyed ones.
Sometimes I try to talk to them about this, trying to keep my response
low-key, "why do you like your white dolls and not your brown/black
ones?" My aim was to give them the chance to pull some of their thoughts
from totally unconscious to conscious where they could examine them for
themselves. I don't know whether I was successful or not, but it was an
opening. I figured they were at least working out some of what being
'different' in a very external appearance oriented culture does to us.
BTW when they had the opportunity later to choose American Girl dolls
(my mom bought them each one) the older girl chose Kaya (Native
American) and the younger chose Addy (cuz she "looks like me") but she
goes through phases of rejection of the doll.
Again, I don't have any idea if what I am doing is helping the girls or
not, but I thought my experience might be of interest.
Robin
mykaylabee@... wrote:
I am also raising African American children in a mostly European
descended context. Since I've been involved in the family I have tried
to make a point to offer them dolls of all different colors/cultures
(Asian, etc.). They also had various baby dolls already when I joined
the family: both blue-eyed and various shades of brown skin.
They go through phases, sometimes expressing great hostility to their
brown-skinned baby dolls and "liking" only their blond, blue-eyed ones.
Sometimes I try to talk to them about this, trying to keep my response
low-key, "why do you like your white dolls and not your brown/black
ones?" My aim was to give them the chance to pull some of their thoughts
from totally unconscious to conscious where they could examine them for
themselves. I don't know whether I was successful or not, but it was an
opening. I figured they were at least working out some of what being
'different' in a very external appearance oriented culture does to us.
BTW when they had the opportunity later to choose American Girl dolls
(my mom bought them each one) the older girl chose Kaya (Native
American) and the younger chose Addy (cuz she "looks like me") but she
goes through phases of rejection of the doll.
Again, I don't have any idea if what I am doing is helping the girls or
not, but I thought my experience might be of interest.
Robin
mykaylabee@... wrote:
> My 8yo dd is African American and the rest of our family is Caucasian. We got an American Girl doll catalog in the mail today and I told Kayla I would order her a doll. She's still trying to decide which one she wants, but she gravitates to the blond-and-blue-eyed ones. Upon thinking about it, I realized she *never* has been drawn to a doll that looks like her. All her dolls have light hair and skin, and I don't think she has ever even looked at anything else. Do you see this as a problem with her self-esteem, or am I making too much out of this? African Americans are the minority here in Utah, but Kayla does have a good friend who AA and was also adopted into a white family. I would love some opinions on if or how I should address this.
>
> Thanks,
> Carol
>
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
It is so interesting all this because I for one think that African- Americans, Latinas, Hindus, Asians and Middle Eastern Women are absolutely beautiful.
Not that there aren't any beautiful Caucasian women. There are plenty. I just think that the more "exotic", the more beautiful. I myself am Brazilian but even thou I have a tan and brown hair/brown eyes I do not qualify as a typical Brazilian beauty as my sister does.
My mom is French/German and my Dad Portuguese/Dutch . His Portuguese is has some middle -eastern ascendant in there so he looks very Middle Eastern.
When I was growing up I too loved dolls that were blond/blue eyes but I guess when I was in my teens and twenties I changed that to a more worldly view.
I also love my skin tone. I think I have absolutely lovely color.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Not that there aren't any beautiful Caucasian women. There are plenty. I just think that the more "exotic", the more beautiful. I myself am Brazilian but even thou I have a tan and brown hair/brown eyes I do not qualify as a typical Brazilian beauty as my sister does.
My mom is French/German and my Dad Portuguese/Dutch . His Portuguese is has some middle -eastern ascendant in there so he looks very Middle Eastern.
When I was growing up I too loved dolls that were blond/blue eyes but I guess when I was in my teens and twenties I changed that to a more worldly view.
I also love my skin tone. I think I have absolutely lovely color.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa Gray
And yet, Avari's favorite dolls are those of AA descent. And we're
about as caucasian as one can get..think generations of swedes.
She thinks that they are so beautiful, they are her queen dolls.
We've always bought a variety of dolls, and while I know that
American girl dolls are so very expensive, perhaps you could look at
Target at their Our Generation dolls, which are very similar to
American Girl, she could pick out the AG doll she wanted, and you
could surprise her with sisters of various shades. They do go through
phases at Target, so you might just start looking now, and check
every week or two.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
about as caucasian as one can get..think generations of swedes.
She thinks that they are so beautiful, they are her queen dolls.
We've always bought a variety of dolls, and while I know that
American girl dolls are so very expensive, perhaps you could look at
Target at their Our Generation dolls, which are very similar to
American Girl, she could pick out the AG doll she wanted, and you
could surprise her with sisters of various shades. They do go through
phases at Target, so you might just start looking now, and check
every week or two.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> mykaylabee@... wrote:
> > My 8yo dd is African American and the rest of our family is
> Caucasian. We got an American Girl doll catalog in the mail today
> and I told Kayla I would order her a doll. She's still trying to
> decide which one she wants, but she gravitates to the blond-and-
> blue-eyed ones. Upon thinking about it, I realized she *never* has
> been drawn to a doll that looks like her. All her dolls have light
> hair and skin, and I don't think she has ever even looked at
> anything else. Do you see this as a problem with her self-esteem,
> or am I making too much out of this? African Americans are the
> minority here in Utah, but Kayla does have a good friend who AA and
> was also adopted into a white family. I would love some opinions on
> if or how I should address this.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Carol
kellynrachel
" mykaylabee@... wrote: My 8yo dd is African American and the rest of
our family is Caucasian. We got an American Girl doll catalog in the
mail today and I told Kayla I would order her a doll. She's still
trying to decide which one she wants, but she gravitates to the
blond-and-blue-eyed ones."
Are there any other girls in the house?
Do they own any darker skinned dolls?
It seems to me that my children pick dolls that they are drawn to.
They don't pick based on skin or hair color. They pick because of the
personality they see in that doll.
Why don't you let your daughter pick whatever doll she wants and you
buy the dark skinned one for yourself? How much of a self-esteem
boost do you think it would give her if you selected one with skin
more similar to hers than her siblings?
Rachel
our family is Caucasian. We got an American Girl doll catalog in the
mail today and I told Kayla I would order her a doll. She's still
trying to decide which one she wants, but she gravitates to the
blond-and-blue-eyed ones."
Are there any other girls in the house?
Do they own any darker skinned dolls?
It seems to me that my children pick dolls that they are drawn to.
They don't pick based on skin or hair color. They pick because of the
personality they see in that doll.
Why don't you let your daughter pick whatever doll she wants and you
buy the dark skinned one for yourself? How much of a self-esteem
boost do you think it would give her if you selected one with skin
more similar to hers than her siblings?
Rachel
Ren Allen
~~
Why don't you let your daughter pick whatever doll she wants and you
buy the dark skinned one for yourself?~~
I think that's a great idea.
This is such a tough issue for me because I DO see all the influences
that say x,y,z are desirable traits and ignore the beauty of all cultures.
As many of you know, my family of origin adopted three children of
different skin color/cultural background. My parents did a great job
of embracing all races,but they did a lousy job of honoring my adopted
siblings heritage.
We grew up "color blind". Which is great in some ways because we
really didn't see skin color as anything to make a fuss about. The
problem with that, is I was so sheltered from the realities that many
tribal cultures and AFrican American's face I was CLUELESS upon
leaving home.
To this day, I can be "color-blind" and have to stop and think about
the reality of the horrible treatment some people receive and the
messages that are present in society about color.
When my Eskimo sisters and Athabascan Indian brother were adopted,
there was no mention of their culture, no seeking out their
culture...it became forgotten in many ways. Sure, we didn't treat
people different because of skin color, but I think honoring their
heritage SHOULD have been part of the adoption process.
You can be completely and totally immersed into another family's
culture as an adoptee AND honor your origins as well. I think both are
helpeful.
So maybe that's what the doll thing comes down to for me. Is her
culture of origin being honored and cherished as a part of who-she-is?
Are their books that reflect the beauty of that culture? Does she hear
the stories and see pictures and dolls and other people that look like
her? Even if they're simply available now and she doesn't show an
interest yet, I think that would be helpful.
In years to come, she'll probably become more curious about some of it.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Why don't you let your daughter pick whatever doll she wants and you
buy the dark skinned one for yourself?~~
I think that's a great idea.
This is such a tough issue for me because I DO see all the influences
that say x,y,z are desirable traits and ignore the beauty of all cultures.
As many of you know, my family of origin adopted three children of
different skin color/cultural background. My parents did a great job
of embracing all races,but they did a lousy job of honoring my adopted
siblings heritage.
We grew up "color blind". Which is great in some ways because we
really didn't see skin color as anything to make a fuss about. The
problem with that, is I was so sheltered from the realities that many
tribal cultures and AFrican American's face I was CLUELESS upon
leaving home.
To this day, I can be "color-blind" and have to stop and think about
the reality of the horrible treatment some people receive and the
messages that are present in society about color.
When my Eskimo sisters and Athabascan Indian brother were adopted,
there was no mention of their culture, no seeking out their
culture...it became forgotten in many ways. Sure, we didn't treat
people different because of skin color, but I think honoring their
heritage SHOULD have been part of the adoption process.
You can be completely and totally immersed into another family's
culture as an adoptee AND honor your origins as well. I think both are
helpeful.
So maybe that's what the doll thing comes down to for me. Is her
culture of origin being honored and cherished as a part of who-she-is?
Are their books that reflect the beauty of that culture? Does she hear
the stories and see pictures and dolls and other people that look like
her? Even if they're simply available now and she doesn't show an
interest yet, I think that would be helpful.
In years to come, she'll probably become more curious about some of it.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Sylvia Toyama
That's my point, she doesn't *want* dolls with skin like hers, and it just makes me wonder if her self-esteem is suffering in some way because all she wants are light-skinned dolls.
*****
When I was a little girl, all dolls were white (and most were blond, too). I'm caucasian, with hazel eyes and brown hair. I quickly realized there were no dolls that looked like me. In those days, all Barbies were blonde, tho her younger cousin Skipper had brown hair (and no boobs). No one wanted to be Skipper. <g>
Instead of dolls of a different color, I focused on friends of different colors. At that time, the prettiest little girl I knew was of AA/Cherokee descent. Chantal was gorgeous, with flowing shiny black hair, creamy tan skin, big doe-brown eyes. I could have stared at her all day (probably did). No one had ever told me that I wasn't pretty, or defined for me what was pretty. I found her pretty because I like tan skin/dark hair. She was exotic and beautiful. That continued -- thru high school, I had Asian, Hispanic and African-American friends (I had caucasian friends, too.
It must have been obvious to my Mom that I liked 'different' because by the time I was 10, I was hearing about why it was a bad idea to date non-whites, because if I married a non-white man, my kids would be 'mixed' and never fit anywhere. That didn't bother me -- heck, I was white in a white family and I didn't fit, not in my family or my community at-large (very conservative small-town Oklahoma).
I dated a variety of men -- my first husband was half-mexican; my current husband is 3rd generation Japanese-American (technically Okinawan). I was amazed that, for the entire time dh and I dated (86 - 94), I regularly had people asking me 'race' questions. Sure, Gary's obviously not caucasian (he jokes that he looks Japanese like he looks Mexican), but come on, does it really matter anymore? Or maybe I'm just the naive white girl. Whether or not I gave a gracious answer depended on who asked the stupid question. <g>
My point in all this is, I don't think it needs to be made a big deal. Buy her the dolls she wants. Whatever it says about her is likely inherent. The fact that you're aware of the potential, says to me that you're doing all you can to value her for who she is. As she grows and explores the way she wants to look in the world, who she wants to be, help her to find the methods of expression that bring her joy. She doesn't need to be whatever society expects of her as an AA girl, or as the child of a white family.
I don't know that a little AA girl who wants a blond, blue-eyed doll is any different from a white adolescent who wants a pierced lip and green mohawk. Today, almost anyone can have any appearance they want. I'd be inclined to put less importance on her choice of doll and more energy towards loving her exactly as she is.
I'd like to think that someday it really won't matter. At least I hope so for the sake of my 23yo, blue-eyed, half-Mexican son with a Japanese surname! <g>
Sylvia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
*****
When I was a little girl, all dolls were white (and most were blond, too). I'm caucasian, with hazel eyes and brown hair. I quickly realized there were no dolls that looked like me. In those days, all Barbies were blonde, tho her younger cousin Skipper had brown hair (and no boobs). No one wanted to be Skipper. <g>
Instead of dolls of a different color, I focused on friends of different colors. At that time, the prettiest little girl I knew was of AA/Cherokee descent. Chantal was gorgeous, with flowing shiny black hair, creamy tan skin, big doe-brown eyes. I could have stared at her all day (probably did). No one had ever told me that I wasn't pretty, or defined for me what was pretty. I found her pretty because I like tan skin/dark hair. She was exotic and beautiful. That continued -- thru high school, I had Asian, Hispanic and African-American friends (I had caucasian friends, too.
It must have been obvious to my Mom that I liked 'different' because by the time I was 10, I was hearing about why it was a bad idea to date non-whites, because if I married a non-white man, my kids would be 'mixed' and never fit anywhere. That didn't bother me -- heck, I was white in a white family and I didn't fit, not in my family or my community at-large (very conservative small-town Oklahoma).
I dated a variety of men -- my first husband was half-mexican; my current husband is 3rd generation Japanese-American (technically Okinawan). I was amazed that, for the entire time dh and I dated (86 - 94), I regularly had people asking me 'race' questions. Sure, Gary's obviously not caucasian (he jokes that he looks Japanese like he looks Mexican), but come on, does it really matter anymore? Or maybe I'm just the naive white girl. Whether or not I gave a gracious answer depended on who asked the stupid question. <g>
My point in all this is, I don't think it needs to be made a big deal. Buy her the dolls she wants. Whatever it says about her is likely inherent. The fact that you're aware of the potential, says to me that you're doing all you can to value her for who she is. As she grows and explores the way she wants to look in the world, who she wants to be, help her to find the methods of expression that bring her joy. She doesn't need to be whatever society expects of her as an AA girl, or as the child of a white family.
I don't know that a little AA girl who wants a blond, blue-eyed doll is any different from a white adolescent who wants a pierced lip and green mohawk. Today, almost anyone can have any appearance they want. I'd be inclined to put less importance on her choice of doll and more energy towards loving her exactly as she is.
I'd like to think that someday it really won't matter. At least I hope so for the sake of my 23yo, blue-eyed, half-Mexican son with a Japanese surname! <g>
Sylvia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen Swanay
> My daughter is Chinese. We are all Celts. She has Asian dolls as well ashth,
> white ones. (She really doesn't like dolls so I haven't bought more but if
> she begins to I'll get her the dolls she wants.) She is, and I'm aware of
> it, a bigot. She doesn't like old Asians. Young people are OK but over 50
> or younger than 50 but looking old makes her very uncomfortable. (She's
> almost 4, developmentally 2.5-3, and home 6 months.) Anyway, I wanted to
> echo what Ren said, the doll is immaterial...are you honoring her culture?
> Do you celebrate african holidays? Cook african foods? Listen to music
> that reflect where she came from? (And I'm assume AA and not Haitian which
> would be different but still needs to be a part of your home.) My daughter
> is Chinese, but she's also Jewish. And she's (by extention) Celtic as
> well. And by bringing her into our home, we became a Chinese family. (It's
> a never ending cycle of hoildays around here!) I guess my point is that is
> is not enough to "just love her" because that does not honor who she is and
> where she came from and that is just not something that most people
> understand. You have to have been involved with interracial/international
> adoption to really understand how different it is. So let her have whatever
> dolls she wants, they are only toys. But start listening to Ladysmith Black
> Mambazo and cooking low country foods etc....that will do more for her sense
> of self than any toy. And you do need to prepare her because although YOU
> don't see her as "your black daughter" the world is going to see her as a
> black woman. And she needs to understand what that means. Bringing her
> ethnic heritage into your family fully and embracing it as yours means she
> will see who she is and where she came from (dna) as valuable.
>
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
We went to the American Girl Doll store in Manhattan a couple of weeks
ago - it is HUGE and wonderful. I was with a group of girls - two 16
year olds, two 17 year olds, a 20 year old and two other moms. The
girls had an interesting conversation about how they had ordered the
Girl of Today dolls, but NOT ordered one that looked like themselves.
They said things like, "Yeah, how weird to have a doll that looks like
yourself." They talked about how dolls get personalities and if the
doll looks just like yourself it is harder to give it a different
personality - hard to even name it.
The book, "Thank You Dr. Martin Luther King Jr" is about this same
issue, by the way.
-pam
ago - it is HUGE and wonderful. I was with a group of girls - two 16
year olds, two 17 year olds, a 20 year old and two other moms. The
girls had an interesting conversation about how they had ordered the
Girl of Today dolls, but NOT ordered one that looked like themselves.
They said things like, "Yeah, how weird to have a doll that looks like
yourself." They talked about how dolls get personalities and if the
doll looks just like yourself it is harder to give it a different
personality - hard to even name it.
The book, "Thank You Dr. Martin Luther King Jr" is about this same
issue, by the way.
-pam
On Jul 9, 2008, at 3:34 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
> If an Earthing were growing up among aliens, wouldn't they want a
> doll to represent another playmate?
>
> As a child, I didn't want another me. I wanted my toys to be my
> friends! ;-)
Mara
That reminds me about a little girl I used to babysit for who had a lot of dolls. Her mom gave her one for Christmas that looked just like her and she never played much with it. It was also the only one that did not have a name. It was more fun for the mom I think - .
I still have a doll my mom made for me and she had to have black hair and brown eyes (mine are blond and green). I never did like dolls that looked like me - mostly the darker the better. I mostly played with them when my brother asked me to - he was way more into dolls than me.
Mara
----- Original Message ----
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2008 4:22:17 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Skin color and self-esteem
We went to the American Girl Doll store in Manhattan a couple of weeks
ago - it is HUGE and wonderful. I was with a group of girls - two 16
year olds, two 17 year olds, a 20 year old and two other moms. The
girls had an interesting conversation about how they had ordered the
Girl of Today dolls, but NOT ordered one that looked like themselves.
They said things like, "Yeah, how weird to have a doll that looks like
yourself." They talked about how dolls get personalities and if the
doll looks just like yourself it is harder to give it a different
personality - hard to even name it.
The book, "Thank You Dr. Martin Luther King Jr" is about this same
issue, by the way.
-pam
I still have a doll my mom made for me and she had to have black hair and brown eyes (mine are blond and green). I never did like dolls that looked like me - mostly the darker the better. I mostly played with them when my brother asked me to - he was way more into dolls than me.
Mara
----- Original Message ----
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2008 4:22:17 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Skin color and self-esteem
We went to the American Girl Doll store in Manhattan a couple of weeks
ago - it is HUGE and wonderful. I was with a group of girls - two 16
year olds, two 17 year olds, a 20 year old and two other moms. The
girls had an interesting conversation about how they had ordered the
Girl of Today dolls, but NOT ordered one that looked like themselves.
They said things like, "Yeah, how weird to have a doll that looks like
yourself." They talked about how dolls get personalities and if the
doll looks just like yourself it is harder to give it a different
personality - hard to even name it.
The book, "Thank You Dr. Martin Luther King Jr" is about this same
issue, by the way.
-pam
On Jul 9, 2008, at 3:34 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
> If an Earthing were growing up among aliens, wouldn't they want a
> doll to represent another playmate?
>
> As a child, I didn't want another me. I wanted my toys to be my
> friends! ;-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
John Lee Clark
Ren:
You offer great thoughts about honoring adoptees' heritages. I wonder how
this might be extended, or not, to other kinds of cultural associations,
such as signing and Deaf culture. Hearing parents may have a deaf
child�we've got a few here on this list, I believe�so how does this apply?
So I wonder if what you're saying is that parents should make the heritage
stuff part of the family . . . even if, at that time they decide to take it
up, the adopted child DOESN'T want a doll of the same color skin? The
child's not wanting that doll may have been a product of the parents'
neglecting the heriage aspect�no books, etc. reflecting the heriage. So if
the child is deaf, does that mean the parents should go into the heritage of
the Deaf community, get books, videos, etc. from the Deaf world?
While my three hearing boys are naturally immersed in signing and in both
Deaf and DeafBlind cultures, the cultures of their parents, my wife and I do
have hearing stuff for them, such as music-related stuff and also they have
tons of hearing friends of all ages. So I know what it's all about what you
said about their being totally immersed in the family but the fact of their
being hearing is also honored. I did find it very difficult to accept their
being hearing and the idea of having hearing stuff in my home�but it was
important that I did accept this.
Unfortunately, this is very rarely done in reverse. Hearing parents rarely
learn signing and many seem to want nothing to do with the signing
community. So it is almost always up to the deaf child to arrive at who she
is, somehow, and to fight for identity. I may be wrong, but I think adopted
children often do have identity crises, trying to figure out who they are,
and it's sad if they have to fight against their parents to do this.
So I have to say that I agree with the honoring part; it gives more options
to the child for self-identification and expression.
John
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You offer great thoughts about honoring adoptees' heritages. I wonder how
this might be extended, or not, to other kinds of cultural associations,
such as signing and Deaf culture. Hearing parents may have a deaf
child�we've got a few here on this list, I believe�so how does this apply?
So I wonder if what you're saying is that parents should make the heritage
stuff part of the family . . . even if, at that time they decide to take it
up, the adopted child DOESN'T want a doll of the same color skin? The
child's not wanting that doll may have been a product of the parents'
neglecting the heriage aspect�no books, etc. reflecting the heriage. So if
the child is deaf, does that mean the parents should go into the heritage of
the Deaf community, get books, videos, etc. from the Deaf world?
While my three hearing boys are naturally immersed in signing and in both
Deaf and DeafBlind cultures, the cultures of their parents, my wife and I do
have hearing stuff for them, such as music-related stuff and also they have
tons of hearing friends of all ages. So I know what it's all about what you
said about their being totally immersed in the family but the fact of their
being hearing is also honored. I did find it very difficult to accept their
being hearing and the idea of having hearing stuff in my home�but it was
important that I did accept this.
Unfortunately, this is very rarely done in reverse. Hearing parents rarely
learn signing and many seem to want nothing to do with the signing
community. So it is almost always up to the deaf child to arrive at who she
is, somehow, and to fight for identity. I may be wrong, but I think adopted
children often do have identity crises, trying to figure out who they are,
and it's sad if they have to fight against their parents to do this.
So I have to say that I agree with the honoring part; it gives more options
to the child for self-identification and expression.
John
No virus found in this incoming message.
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6:50 AM
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Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1542 - Release Date: 7/9/2008
6:50 AM
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~Hearing parents rarely
learn signing and many seem to want nothing to do with the signing
community. ~~
I was friends with a kid like this...well, sorta. I hated him when we
were younger. But the parents did exactly what you wrote above. Their
reasoning was that he would never cope in the hearing world if they
signed with him etc...
Which led to him having no way to communicate effectively and he
lashed out,was angry and a general nuisance to society for many years.
As a teen he was great. But what a lot of turmoil and stress it
caused, mainly because he didn't have the tools to communicate the way
he needed.
They should have learned sign. They should have connected him to the
deaf culture and offered up those options. He STILL would have been
able to read lips and get by in the hearing world if he chose, but
they never gave him the deaf culture options.
I can't imagine how incredibly difficult it would be to be as alone as
he was for so many years. Never around other deaf people, never with
the communication of deaf people. How sad to not make that available
to him.
Making options available that best supports our child, in whatever
situation they happen to live within, is part of unschooling in my
opinion. The child may or may not need/want those options right now
(though hopefully we're connected enough to know what MIGHT be
useful/enjoyable to them), but at least they'll know it exists.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
learn signing and many seem to want nothing to do with the signing
community. ~~
I was friends with a kid like this...well, sorta. I hated him when we
were younger. But the parents did exactly what you wrote above. Their
reasoning was that he would never cope in the hearing world if they
signed with him etc...
Which led to him having no way to communicate effectively and he
lashed out,was angry and a general nuisance to society for many years.
As a teen he was great. But what a lot of turmoil and stress it
caused, mainly because he didn't have the tools to communicate the way
he needed.
They should have learned sign. They should have connected him to the
deaf culture and offered up those options. He STILL would have been
able to read lips and get by in the hearing world if he chose, but
they never gave him the deaf culture options.
I can't imagine how incredibly difficult it would be to be as alone as
he was for so many years. Never around other deaf people, never with
the communication of deaf people. How sad to not make that available
to him.
Making options available that best supports our child, in whatever
situation they happen to live within, is part of unschooling in my
opinion. The child may or may not need/want those options right now
(though hopefully we're connected enough to know what MIGHT be
useful/enjoyable to them), but at least they'll know it exists.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
[email protected]
Thanks to everyone who replied to my concerns about my AA daughter and her dolls. After reading all your thoughts, I realized we're probably just fine. We honor and celebrate my daughter for who she is, and give her plenty of opportunities to immerse herself in her culture. And I realized her love of blond-and-blue-eyed dolls might be as simple as being drawn to what you don't have, the same way I'd love to trade in my stick-straight hair for my daughter's riot of curls! We do have a lovely light-skinned American Girl doll on its way to us, just in time for my daughter to join an American Girl club through my local Barnes and Noble. It will be fun for her to get together with other girls and talk about the dolls. Thanks again for your always thoughtful perspective.
Carol
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Carol
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa
My FIL was born deaf in the 30's ... at age 6 or 7 he was sent to St
Louis Institute for the Deaf (his family lived in Ohio) .. he spent
many years there away from his family. They taught lip reading at
his school so he was never taught sign... his family never made any
effort to make his life easier just forced him to cope with their
lives. He was also told what a burden he was (his family was luckily
wealthy but never let him forget how much money went to his education
instead of important things like vacation homes, impressive club
memberships and so forth) He was also constantly told what he could
not do because of his hearing impairment.
Flash forward to adulthood.... he attended Ohio State in the years
before any accommodations were made for anyone with a learning
difference, he joined a fraternity, completely his college education,
got a job, moved many thousands of miles away from his family,
married, adopted children and only when his children were young was he
able to be fitted with a hearing aide that would enable him to hear
any sounds.
With all of his accomplishments his family never let him forget he was
different and somehow "less" (after all he didn't get a masters
degree like his siblings) Their unwillingness to celebrate his
differences made him into a miserable person... he is also angry and
cruel and doesn't have effective ways to communicate or cope with
life. I just imagine what it would have been like for him to have
been born into a family that was kind and did more for him than throw
money at his problem.
Lisa B
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
Louis Institute for the Deaf (his family lived in Ohio) .. he spent
many years there away from his family. They taught lip reading at
his school so he was never taught sign... his family never made any
effort to make his life easier just forced him to cope with their
lives. He was also told what a burden he was (his family was luckily
wealthy but never let him forget how much money went to his education
instead of important things like vacation homes, impressive club
memberships and so forth) He was also constantly told what he could
not do because of his hearing impairment.
Flash forward to adulthood.... he attended Ohio State in the years
before any accommodations were made for anyone with a learning
difference, he joined a fraternity, completely his college education,
got a job, moved many thousands of miles away from his family,
married, adopted children and only when his children were young was he
able to be fitted with a hearing aide that would enable him to hear
any sounds.
With all of his accomplishments his family never let him forget he was
different and somehow "less" (after all he didn't get a masters
degree like his siblings) Their unwillingness to celebrate his
differences made him into a miserable person... he is also angry and
cruel and doesn't have effective ways to communicate or cope with
life. I just imagine what it would have been like for him to have
been born into a family that was kind and did more for him than throw
money at his problem.
Lisa B
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~Hearing parents rarely
> learn signing and many seem to want nothing to do with the signing
> community. ~~
>
> I was friends with a kid like this...well, sorta. I hated him when we
> were younger. But the parents did exactly what you wrote above. Their
> reasoning was that he would never cope in the hearing world if they
> signed with him etc...
>
> Which led to him having no way to communicate effectively and he
> lashed out,was angry and a general nuisance to society for many years.
> As a teen he was great. But what a lot of turmoil and stress it
> caused, mainly because he didn't have the tools to communicate the way
> he needed.
>
> They should have learned sign. They should have connected him to the
> deaf culture and offered up those options. He STILL would have been
> able to read lips and get by in the hearing world if he chose, but
> they never gave him the deaf culture options.
>
> I can't imagine how incredibly difficult it would be to be as alone as
> he was for so many years. Never around other deaf people, never with
> the communication of deaf people. How sad to not make that available
> to him.
>
> Making options available that best supports our child, in whatever
> situation they happen to live within, is part of unschooling in my
> opinion. The child may or may not need/want those options right now
> (though hopefully we're connected enough to know what MIGHT be
> useful/enjoyable to them), but at least they'll know it exists.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
k
What you have written here is very appropriate for all of us to think about:
expanding your child's world and honoring them in ways that have to do with
*their* experience.
Unfortunately just as you have said, that doesn't happen with out openness.
Once some inequity or difference appears on the horizon, many people ignore
or shrug it off rather than seeing it as a unique quality, something new to
them that they don't have much personal experience living with. Though they
may have personal experience being *around* someone with a different culture
like deafness or another skin color/ethnicity, this does not translate into
personal experience.
As parents or just living around others, it's easy to mistake proximity for
experience. Part of being mindful is avoiding unclear thoughts like that.
~Katherine
expanding your child's world and honoring them in ways that have to do with
*their* experience.
Unfortunately just as you have said, that doesn't happen with out openness.
Once some inequity or difference appears on the horizon, many people ignore
or shrug it off rather than seeing it as a unique quality, something new to
them that they don't have much personal experience living with. Though they
may have personal experience being *around* someone with a different culture
like deafness or another skin color/ethnicity, this does not translate into
personal experience.
As parents or just living around others, it's easy to mistake proximity for
experience. Part of being mindful is avoiding unclear thoughts like that.
~Katherine
On 7/10/08, John Lee Clark <johnlee.clark@...> wrote:
>
> Ren:
>
>
>
> You offer great thoughts about honoring adoptees' heritages. I wonder how
> this might be extended, or not, to other kinds of cultural associations,
> such as signing and Deaf culture. Hearing parents may have a deaf
> child�we've got a few here on this list, I believe�so how does this apply?
>
>
>
> So I wonder if what you're saying is that parents should make the heritage
> stuff part of the family . . . even if, at that time they decide to take it
> up, the adopted child DOESN'T want a doll of the same color skin? The
> child's not wanting that doll may have been a product of the parents'
> neglecting the heriage aspect�no books, etc. reflecting the heriage. So if
> the child is deaf, does that mean the parents should go into the heritage
> of
> the Deaf community, get books, videos, etc. from the Deaf world?
>
>
>
> While my three hearing boys are naturally immersed in signing and in both
> Deaf and DeafBlind cultures, the cultures of their parents, my wife and I
> do
> have hearing stuff for them, such as music-related stuff and also they have
> tons of hearing friends of all ages. So I know what it's all about what
> you
> said about their being totally immersed in the family but the fact of their
> being hearing is also honored. I did find it very difficult to accept
> their
> being hearing and the idea of having hearing stuff in my home�but it was
> important that I did accept this.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, this is very rarely done in reverse. Hearing parents rarely
>
> learn signing and many seem to want nothing to do with the signing
>
> community. So it is almost always up to the deaf child to arrive at who
> she
> is, somehow, and to fight for identity. I may be wrong, but I think
> adopted
> children often do have identity crises, trying to figure out who they are,
> and it's sad if they have to fight against their parents to do this.
>
>
>
> So I have to say that I agree with the honoring part; it gives more options
> to the child for self-identification and expression.
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1542 - Release Date: 7/9/2008
> 6:50 AM
>
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1542 - Release Date: 7/9/2008
> 6:50 AM
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa <jlblock01@...>
My FIL was born deaf in the 30's ... at age 6 or 7 he was sent to St
Louis Institute for the Deaf (his family lived in Ohio) .. he spent
many years there away from his family. They taught lip reading at
his school so he was never taught sign... his family never made any
effort to make his life easier just forced him to cope with their
lives. He was also told what a burden he was (his family was luckily
wealthy but never let him forget how much money went to his education
instead of important things like vacation homes, impressive club
memberships and so forth) He was also constantly told what he could
not do because of his hearing impairment.
Flash forward to adulthood.... he attended Ohio State in the years
before any accommodations were made for anyone with a learning
difference, he joined a fraternity, completely his college education,
got a job, moved many thousands of miles away from his family,
married, adopted children and only when his children were young was he
able to be fitted with a hearing aide that would enable him to hear
any sounds.
With all of his accomplishments his family never let him forget he was
different and somehow "less" (after all he didn't get a masters
degree like his siblings) Their unwillingness to celebrate his
differences made him into a miserable person... he is also angry and
cruel and doesn't have effective ways to communicate or cope with
life. I just imagine what it would have been like for him to have
been born into a family that was kind and did more for him than throw
money at his problem.
-=-=-=-
That just made me cry. And know: I don't cry easily.
But that is so sad---and unfortunately so common.
As parents we have the ability to open their lives to sooo many
opportunities, even under extremely dire financial circumstances. We
have the ability---even in what feel like a hopeless situation---to
help them see what *can* be instead of what's seemingly been dumped on
us/them. We have the ability---even in extremely difficult
situations---to make our children feel important and perfect and
desired and adored.
And we have the incredible and amazing ability to make them feel like
crap.
We get to choose very moment which way to turn.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Lisa <jlblock01@...>
My FIL was born deaf in the 30's ... at age 6 or 7 he was sent to St
Louis Institute for the Deaf (his family lived in Ohio) .. he spent
many years there away from his family. They taught lip reading at
his school so he was never taught sign... his family never made any
effort to make his life easier just forced him to cope with their
lives. He was also told what a burden he was (his family was luckily
wealthy but never let him forget how much money went to his education
instead of important things like vacation homes, impressive club
memberships and so forth) He was also constantly told what he could
not do because of his hearing impairment.
Flash forward to adulthood.... he attended Ohio State in the years
before any accommodations were made for anyone with a learning
difference, he joined a fraternity, completely his college education,
got a job, moved many thousands of miles away from his family,
married, adopted children and only when his children were young was he
able to be fitted with a hearing aide that would enable him to hear
any sounds.
With all of his accomplishments his family never let him forget he was
different and somehow "less" (after all he didn't get a masters
degree like his siblings) Their unwillingness to celebrate his
differences made him into a miserable person... he is also angry and
cruel and doesn't have effective ways to communicate or cope with
life. I just imagine what it would have been like for him to have
been born into a family that was kind and did more for him than throw
money at his problem.
-=-=-=-
That just made me cry. And know: I don't cry easily.
But that is so sad---and unfortunately so common.
As parents we have the ability to open their lives to sooo many
opportunities, even under extremely dire financial circumstances. We
have the ability---even in what feel like a hopeless situation---to
help them see what *can* be instead of what's seemingly been dumped on
us/them. We have the ability---even in extremely difficult
situations---to make our children feel important and perfect and
desired and adored.
And we have the incredible and amazing ability to make them feel like
crap.
We get to choose very moment which way to turn.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
Making options available that best supports our child, in whatever
situation they happen to live within, is part of unschooling in my
opinion. The child may or may not need/want those options right now
(though hopefully we're connected enough to know what MIGHT be
useful/enjoyable to them), but at least they'll know it exists.
-=-=-=-=-
To bring this around to unschooling again <g>....
This is also true regarding EVERYTHING---not just skin color and
hearing.
Accepting skateboarding and jazz and video gaming and
vegetarianism--and not just "accepting" but *supporting*---was a leap I
didn't *have* to take.
I could have refused to buy new wheels and trucks, and I could have
refused to cart my-not-yet-driving teen around to skateparks for hours
on end. I could have refused to buy more cymbals and sticks or sit
through night after night of jazz until my teeth hurt (I found that I
grind my teeth when listening to jazz---it actually makes my teeth
hurt. <g>). I could have limited video games to only three in the house
at a time and only allowed four hours/week playing time. I could have
refused to omit the chicken in chicken noodle soup!
But it's good to keep our options open. <g>
It's important for *us* to step outside *our* comfort zones. To stretch
our-own-selves. Our children will learn from our example. The more *we*
the parents are willing to stretch ourselves, the more they will
too...eventually.
Support them where they are *now*. Chances are, they won't stay right
there in that one spot for long. And if they *do*, then you were right
to support it all along! <g>
And if they know you support the *now*, they'll feel comfortable asking
for your support later.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
Making options available that best supports our child, in whatever
situation they happen to live within, is part of unschooling in my
opinion. The child may or may not need/want those options right now
(though hopefully we're connected enough to know what MIGHT be
useful/enjoyable to them), but at least they'll know it exists.
-=-=-=-=-
To bring this around to unschooling again <g>....
This is also true regarding EVERYTHING---not just skin color and
hearing.
Accepting skateboarding and jazz and video gaming and
vegetarianism--and not just "accepting" but *supporting*---was a leap I
didn't *have* to take.
I could have refused to buy new wheels and trucks, and I could have
refused to cart my-not-yet-driving teen around to skateparks for hours
on end. I could have refused to buy more cymbals and sticks or sit
through night after night of jazz until my teeth hurt (I found that I
grind my teeth when listening to jazz---it actually makes my teeth
hurt. <g>). I could have limited video games to only three in the house
at a time and only allowed four hours/week playing time. I could have
refused to omit the chicken in chicken noodle soup!
But it's good to keep our options open. <g>
It's important for *us* to step outside *our* comfort zones. To stretch
our-own-selves. Our children will learn from our example. The more *we*
the parents are willing to stretch ourselves, the more they will
too...eventually.
Support them where they are *now*. Chances are, they won't stay right
there in that one spot for long. And if they *do*, then you were right
to support it all along! <g>
And if they know you support the *now*, they'll feel comfortable asking
for your support later.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Kathleen Gehrke
I have a Great Story about our son Tycen, who is AA. We had always
discussed about his birth family. His Bio Dad was AA, his birthmom was
Italian, like me;]. We told him about his heritage with pride.
One day when he was about four he walked passed a mirror. He stopped
moved around and danced a bit. He stared at himself and danced some
more. He then announced, "did you guys know I am BLACK."
Have a nice night.
Kathleen
discussed about his birth family. His Bio Dad was AA, his birthmom was
Italian, like me;]. We told him about his heritage with pride.
One day when he was about four he walked passed a mirror. He stopped
moved around and danced a bit. He stared at himself and danced some
more. He then announced, "did you guys know I am BLACK."
Have a nice night.
Kathleen
barbara emrich
Too cute! I love that image!
Barb
Barb
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 9:26 PM, Kathleen Gehrke <gehrkes@...> wrote:
> I have a Great Story about our son Tycen, who is AA. We had always
> discussed about his birth family. His Bio Dad was AA, his birthmom was
> Italian, like me;]. We told him about his heritage with pride.
>
> One day when he was about four he walked passed a mirror. He stopped
> moved around and danced a bit. He stared at himself and danced some
> more. He then announced, "did you guys know I am BLACK."
>
> Have a nice night.
>
> Kathleen
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wisdomalways5
--- In [email protected], "Kathleen Gehrke"
<gehrkes@...> wrote:
black and one day he came to me and said "why am I not black like Zach"-
which instead of saying why his friend was NOT like HIM it was the other
way around- so maybe kids see it differently.
Julie
www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com
<http://www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<gehrkes@...> wrote:
>that is so funny- when my white son was about 3 his best friend was
> I have a Great Story about our son Tycen, who is AA. We had always
> discussed about his birth family. His Bio Dad was AA, his birthmom was
> Italian, like me;]. We told him about his heritage with pride.
>
> One day when he was about four he walked passed a mirror. He stopped
> moved around and danced a bit. He stared at himself and danced some
> more. He then announced, "did you guys know I am BLACK."
>
>
black and one day he came to me and said "why am I not black like Zach"-
which instead of saying why his friend was NOT like HIM it was the other
way around- so maybe kids see it differently.
Julie
www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com
<http://www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gwen
Maisha Khalfani <maitai373@...> wrote:
�I�m not sure how to approach this here. It can be a loaded issue.
Oh yes! It certainly can be!� I've really enjoyed reading the responses.
My daughters are almost seven and 1 1/2.� They are white (me, red hair, pale skin), Native American/African American (dad).� Megan, my oldest, has this fabulous thick dark curly hair.� Zoe, the baby, has wavy hair and it is light to medium brown.
We recently moved back to Oregon after living in New Mexico.� For the past three years Megan has grown up with her aunt (who looks just like Megan), her grandma (very, very dark), her grandpa (NA), and lots
of people who look a little like her.�
A few weeks ago Megan bought a Barbie.� She really bought the Barbie for the toy dogs that came with it, but she picked the blond Barbie.� I chose not to ask her why she didn't want the other Barbie.� I think asking would have made it a bigger issue than it was.� Any issues about her preferences would have been mine and not hers.�
DH and I have been talking about the whole race issue a lot lately.� My husband grew up on an Indian reservation.� So basically he was a minority within a minority and it wasn't pleasant for him.� We've decided not to celebrate holidays related only to ethnicity in our home.� Where would we even start?� Africa is a big continent with many countries and picking a random holiday feels disingenuous and staged to us.� The Feast days on the NA side of the family are region specific and we'd need to be in NM to attend.� Which doesn't mean we won't attend cultural festivals for fun - we are planning on going to The Scottish Highland Games this weekend.
We want to raise Megan as a whole person, not a
collection of parts.� Our goal is to make her confident and proud of herself because she's an amazing person.� We know that her skin color will be an issue she will need to deal with in her life.� But it doesn't matter right now and we'd like to keep it that way as long as possible.
Gwen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
�I�m not sure how to approach this here. It can be a loaded issue.
Oh yes! It certainly can be!� I've really enjoyed reading the responses.
My daughters are almost seven and 1 1/2.� They are white (me, red hair, pale skin), Native American/African American (dad).� Megan, my oldest, has this fabulous thick dark curly hair.� Zoe, the baby, has wavy hair and it is light to medium brown.
We recently moved back to Oregon after living in New Mexico.� For the past three years Megan has grown up with her aunt (who looks just like Megan), her grandma (very, very dark), her grandpa (NA), and lots
of people who look a little like her.�
A few weeks ago Megan bought a Barbie.� She really bought the Barbie for the toy dogs that came with it, but she picked the blond Barbie.� I chose not to ask her why she didn't want the other Barbie.� I think asking would have made it a bigger issue than it was.� Any issues about her preferences would have been mine and not hers.�
DH and I have been talking about the whole race issue a lot lately.� My husband grew up on an Indian reservation.� So basically he was a minority within a minority and it wasn't pleasant for him.� We've decided not to celebrate holidays related only to ethnicity in our home.� Where would we even start?� Africa is a big continent with many countries and picking a random holiday feels disingenuous and staged to us.� The Feast days on the NA side of the family are region specific and we'd need to be in NM to attend.� Which doesn't mean we won't attend cultural festivals for fun - we are planning on going to The Scottish Highland Games this weekend.
We want to raise Megan as a whole person, not a
collection of parts.� Our goal is to make her confident and proud of herself because she's an amazing person.� We know that her skin color will be an issue she will need to deal with in her life.� But it doesn't matter right now and we'd like to keep it that way as long as possible.
Gwen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shannon Lynn
Hi everyone,
My name is Shalyn,
I joined the group because I wanted to learn about different ways
that others unschool. I am 36, been married for 18 years this year
and we have 3 sons. Our oldest is now married and he and his wife
just gave birth to their first child (son) on June 25th. We are now
grnadparents!!!
We had been homeschooling our children and we used the conventional
way with our oldest and for the most part with the twins (14). But
one of our twins has a severe form of dislexia. We had him tested and
we were told that it was the worst case that they had seen in 20
years. So even though he can rebuild just about any engine, run the
family farm, run our house hold and what ever else you can think of,
he CAN NOT SPELL! It is almost impossible to even understand what he
writes.
My husband and I have found ourselves leaning toward a more natural
way of raising our children over the years and we LOVE IT!
It has taken our one twin and his dislexia for us to realize that his
self esteem has gotten worse because of the way we thought we had to
school him. (conventionally)
So I would love to learn more about unschooling. If not for the twins
highschool years then for our future children God willing.
I too saw the Baby borrowers. I kind of have mixed feelings about it
because these young adults were given children that didn't know them
and it seemed to be a bit of an unfair advantage for the shows
producers. When you have your own from the beginning, you get to
establish a bond and some sort of routine, but these poor babies,
toddles and teens were just kind of thrown together without all of
that.
Anyways, I thought I would comment, hope I don't offend anyone.
Shalyn
My name is Shalyn,
I joined the group because I wanted to learn about different ways
that others unschool. I am 36, been married for 18 years this year
and we have 3 sons. Our oldest is now married and he and his wife
just gave birth to their first child (son) on June 25th. We are now
grnadparents!!!
We had been homeschooling our children and we used the conventional
way with our oldest and for the most part with the twins (14). But
one of our twins has a severe form of dislexia. We had him tested and
we were told that it was the worst case that they had seen in 20
years. So even though he can rebuild just about any engine, run the
family farm, run our house hold and what ever else you can think of,
he CAN NOT SPELL! It is almost impossible to even understand what he
writes.
My husband and I have found ourselves leaning toward a more natural
way of raising our children over the years and we LOVE IT!
It has taken our one twin and his dislexia for us to realize that his
self esteem has gotten worse because of the way we thought we had to
school him. (conventionally)
So I would love to learn more about unschooling. If not for the twins
highschool years then for our future children God willing.
I too saw the Baby borrowers. I kind of have mixed feelings about it
because these young adults were given children that didn't know them
and it seemed to be a bit of an unfair advantage for the shows
producers. When you have your own from the beginning, you get to
establish a bond and some sort of routine, but these poor babies,
toddles and teens were just kind of thrown together without all of
that.
Anyways, I thought I would comment, hope I don't offend anyone.
Shalyn
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jul 11, 2008, at 12:53 AM, Gwen wrote:
California - so a complete muddle of probably almost every ethnicity
on the planet).
We've always kept some Iranian cultural traditions alive in our house,
including celebrations of traditional Persian holidays (winter and
summer solstices, spring equinox which is their New Year).
My girls really FEEL that they have a strong sense of their Iranian
heritage even though they don't speak the language and haven't ever
been to Iran. I think it is a very important thing to them - it is
part of who they are. They LOVE the Persian holiday traditions and get
great joy and satisfaction from them.
I don't know - I think we all ARE a collection parts that make up the
whole.
-pam
>My husband is Iranian and I'm white American (5th generation
> We want to raise Megan as a whole person, not a
> collection of parts. Our goal is to make her confident and proud of
> herself because she's an amazing person. We know that her skin
> color will be an issue she will need to deal with in her life. But
> it doesn't matter right now and we'd like to keep it that way as
> long as possible.
California - so a complete muddle of probably almost every ethnicity
on the planet).
We've always kept some Iranian cultural traditions alive in our house,
including celebrations of traditional Persian holidays (winter and
summer solstices, spring equinox which is their New Year).
My girls really FEEL that they have a strong sense of their Iranian
heritage even though they don't speak the language and haven't ever
been to Iran. I think it is a very important thing to them - it is
part of who they are. They LOVE the Persian holiday traditions and get
great joy and satisfaction from them.
I don't know - I think we all ARE a collection parts that make up the
whole.
-pam
Kimberly Slage
Hello Shalyn,
I am so glad that you and your husband have chosen to unschool. I started
unschooling two years ago when my youngest daughter was diagnosed with type
1 diabetes. The girls are now 14 and 8 and I can not imagine having them
back in a "institutional " facility again!
Take care and good luck...
Kimberly
I am so glad that you and your husband have chosen to unschool. I started
unschooling two years ago when my youngest daughter was diagnosed with type
1 diabetes. The girls are now 14 and 8 and I can not imagine having them
back in a "institutional " facility again!
Take care and good luck...
Kimberly
On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Shannon Lynn <shalync90@...> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> My name is Shalyn,
> I joined the group because I wanted to learn about different ways
> that others unschool. I am 36, been married for 18 years this year
> and we have 3 sons. Our oldest is now married and he and his wife
> just gave birth to their first child (son) on June 25th. We are now
> grnadparents!!!
> We had been homeschooling our children and we used the conventional
> way with our oldest and for the most part with the twins (14). But
> one of our twins has a severe form of dislexia. We had him tested and
> we were told that it was the worst case that they had seen in 20
> years. So even though he can rebuild just about any engine, run the
> family farm, run our house hold and what ever else you can think of,
> he CAN NOT SPELL! It is almost impossible to even understand what he
> writes.
> My husband and I have found ourselves leaning toward a more natural
> way of raising our children over the years and we LOVE IT!
> It has taken our one twin and his dislexia for us to realize that his
> self esteem has gotten worse because of the way we thought we had to
> school him. (conventionally)
> So I would love to learn more about unschooling. If not for the twins
> highschool years then for our future children God willing.
>
> I too saw the Baby borrowers. I kind of have mixed feelings about it
> because these young adults were given children that didn't know them
> and it seemed to be a bit of an unfair advantage for the shows
> producers. When you have your own from the beginning, you get to
> establish a bond and some sort of routine, but these poor babies,
> toddles and teens were just kind of thrown together without all of
> that.
> Anyways, I thought I would comment, hope I don't offend anyone.
> Shalyn
>
>
>
--
Kimberly Slage
www.magnoliaacademy.weebly.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
And we've totally gotten away from any Okinawan cultural observances around here. When we're with Gary's parents on New Year's day, we'll have a traditional Ozuni meal, and drink sake. They always send the boys gifts on Boy's Day (traditional on May 5, not the modern Children's Day on March 3 -- that's Girl's Day to us). We've celebrated Boy's Day over the years, too, with small gifts for the boys.
Really, tho, Gary's childhood was culturally American in many ways. His Dad was an AirForce officer, so they moved every 3 yrs or so, and only lived near extended family for the 4-yr stint in Hawaii. Gary was the only Asian child in his classes, until high school when they lived in the DC area, and then most of the Asians were Vietnamese or Korean, not Japanese -- certainly not Okinawan. Gary's parents are Methodists, tho his grandparents and a couple of uncles were/are Buddhists.
Beyond what the grandparents do for Boy's Day, any other forays into Okinawan/Buddhist culture have been on my part, because I do want the boys to have a sense of their culture. Living in Albuquerque, Andy is often mistaken for Mexican (he has dark skin like Gary, and very curly hair, courtesy of my family). I've noticed that little old Asian ladies always recognize the boys are Asian, even Dan who has my coloring, who is starting to look Asian as he gets older (at least to us).
This past December, Andy's favorite uncle (my mom-in-law's next older brother) died unexpectedly. Andy was heartbroken, and wanted to know what Uncle and Aunty believe happens when they die, so I researched their beliefs. They are Shin Buddhists (the most common branch in Japan) and we talked about the 49-day celebration they'd have for Uncle. Andy really enjoyed thinking that someday Uncle will be back around, and thinks anyone who gets Uncle for a child will be very blessed and happy. (Andy has always accepted reincarnation as absolute fact.) We all miss Uncle Nobu very much -- he is truly one of the most truly generous people I've ever known. He and his wife, Michie, have always loved and seen Andy for exactly who he is -- a rare thing in so many people. From stories I've heard, they were very much the kind of parents we try to be, supporting their kids' freedom and wonder. Their kids were known as 'the wild ones' and have grown to be
wonderful (and successful) adults, so we can point to their methods to defend our own.
Sylvia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Really, tho, Gary's childhood was culturally American in many ways. His Dad was an AirForce officer, so they moved every 3 yrs or so, and only lived near extended family for the 4-yr stint in Hawaii. Gary was the only Asian child in his classes, until high school when they lived in the DC area, and then most of the Asians were Vietnamese or Korean, not Japanese -- certainly not Okinawan. Gary's parents are Methodists, tho his grandparents and a couple of uncles were/are Buddhists.
Beyond what the grandparents do for Boy's Day, any other forays into Okinawan/Buddhist culture have been on my part, because I do want the boys to have a sense of their culture. Living in Albuquerque, Andy is often mistaken for Mexican (he has dark skin like Gary, and very curly hair, courtesy of my family). I've noticed that little old Asian ladies always recognize the boys are Asian, even Dan who has my coloring, who is starting to look Asian as he gets older (at least to us).
This past December, Andy's favorite uncle (my mom-in-law's next older brother) died unexpectedly. Andy was heartbroken, and wanted to know what Uncle and Aunty believe happens when they die, so I researched their beliefs. They are Shin Buddhists (the most common branch in Japan) and we talked about the 49-day celebration they'd have for Uncle. Andy really enjoyed thinking that someday Uncle will be back around, and thinks anyone who gets Uncle for a child will be very blessed and happy. (Andy has always accepted reincarnation as absolute fact.) We all miss Uncle Nobu very much -- he is truly one of the most truly generous people I've ever known. He and his wife, Michie, have always loved and seen Andy for exactly who he is -- a rare thing in so many people. From stories I've heard, they were very much the kind of parents we try to be, supporting their kids' freedom and wonder. Their kids were known as 'the wild ones' and have grown to be
wonderful (and successful) adults, so we can point to their methods to defend our own.
Sylvia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maisha Khalfani
***I don't know - I think we all ARE a collection parts that make up the
whole.
-pam***
I completely agree with that Pam. If we all were to trace back our heritage
we would find that theres something else in there. Its a wonderful stew
of cultures and colors.
Namasté
be at peace,
Maisha
Safiya (9), Dakari (8), Khalid (5), Khidar (3)
<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures
As long as the mind does not become obsessed with good and bad, you will
realize that all things are basically just as they are supposed to be.
~ Ta-mei (ca.805)
Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender, thoughtful and
affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service. Love is
more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a present.
~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
whole.
-pam***
I completely agree with that Pam. If we all were to trace back our heritage
we would find that theres something else in there. Its a wonderful stew
of cultures and colors.
Namasté
be at peace,
Maisha
Safiya (9), Dakari (8), Khalid (5), Khidar (3)
<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures
As long as the mind does not become obsessed with good and bad, you will
realize that all things are basically just as they are supposed to be.
~ Ta-mei (ca.805)
Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender, thoughtful and
affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service. Love is
more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a present.
~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]