keetry

I can't remember if it was on this group or AlwaysUnschooled that
Ren's quiz about what we learned in school was posted. Since there
are a lot of the same people on both I figured I'd post this here.
It seems more appropriate for here. *shrug*

Anyway, I asked my husband if he thought he used anything that he
learned in K-12 school today in his job. His answer surprised me. He
said that he thought the stuff he learned in 1st-6th grade was very
important to his daily life, basic math and reading. He said the
stuff he learned in middle and high school he probably could've
learned on his own. That seemed backward to me. It seems to me that
the basics in math and reading would be more easily learned without
school. The more advanced stuff like Algebra or high school
Chemistry or Physics (in terms of formulas and theories and such,
not practical application) might require at least the help of
someone knowledgeable in those areas but those are things that not
everyone needs to learn.

That lead to us discussing learning to read. He did not agree with
me that people could learn to read without being taught even though
he can't really remember being taught to read. He said, "You think
someone can just pick up a book and start reading without being
taught?" Of course, my answer was yes but he didn't buy it. I went
on to explain that we are facilitating learning to read when we read
to the kids so it's not like they will ever be in a situation where
they've never seen a printed word and then all of a sudden decide to
read. However, I do believe that a person could do that if/when they
really wanted to.

I just found my husband's perspective interesting and thought I'd
throw that out here for discussion.

Alysia

Nicole Willoughby

Well i dont agree with it being necessary to go to school for 1st-6th grade ...or any grade for that matter. I do agree that whats normally taught in those grades is more essential. Basic reading and math skills, an idea of how to read a map ( or use mapquest, or ask for directions) so you can find where you need to go are more important than knowledge of traditional high school subjects.

There are many many jobs out there.....all to one degree or another where people go through high school and /or college then realize that as far as the job is concerned they dont know *%$@ but pick up what they need to know quickly because it is useful and interesting to them.

If a person decides to become a dog trainer to train service dogs, or search and rescue or whatever they would want to gather information about things like dog behavior , breed traits, history, etc. Basic knowlege of reading and math would be extremely useful as would experience working with others of different ages and backgrounds ( something not gotten in ps) . However unless their favorite weekend pasttime is making bombs all those high school chemistry and physics classes will probably be useless.

Nicole


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~He said, "You think
someone can just pick up a book and start reading without being
taught?"~~

Then how do so many of us have children that did exactly this!? They
don't just "pick up a book" one day...they DO figure out how to read
one day though. In my home, there are many books, video games, printed
words on packages etc...and a person would be exposed to those things
for years. So yeah, it looked like one day, a kid just picked
something up and read it. Like magic.

But they were decoding language all along.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 8, 2008, at 9:32 AM, keetry wrote:

> He did not agree with
> me that people could learn to read without being taught even though
> he can't really remember being taught to read. He said, "You think
> someone can just pick up a book and start reading without being
> taught?"

In a way, from a certain point of view, he's right.

People can't learn to read in a vacuum. In a culture without print,
you couldn't hand a person a book and expect them to read.

But *how* does someone acquire the knowledge necessary to read?
Because teaching reading is universal in the culture, we think the
ability to read comes from teachers putting the knowledge into kids
heads. We think that's probably the best way since everyone does it
that way. (And since it's (supposedly) the best way, and since some
kids have problems reading, then reading must be really hard to learn.

The assumptions are wrong, of course. Unschoolers have oodles of kids
who have learned to read without being taught. Not only do we have
full literacy -- though it occasionally comes much later than schools
expect it -- but it works *much* better than being taught.

It makes no sense until you see it happen. Kids figure out reading
the same way they figured out how to speak: by observing, by trying
things out, by using it to get something they want. In a world full
of STOP and McDonalds and moms willing to answer questions (and read
to them) and video games where you get good feed back on why it's
important to recognize the phrase "Do you want to save?" ;-) kids
can't *not* figure it out.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa

This morning my 6 yr old asked the little boy that we are fostering
right now why he had to go to school... the boy replied that you HAD
to go to school to learn so you could get a good job... Jack thought
about it for a second and said "what happens if you don't get a GOOD
job? I think I would rather have a fun job" Funny how some adults
don't even get this and my 6 yr old has it figured out!

Oh and for the record... my father never took a woodworking class and
builds beautiful furniture which he learned to build from a book.. the
tools he uses ...learned to use those from a book also...my mother
learned to make beautiful baskets from a book, my husband learned car
repair from a book none were ever "taught" by anyone. One summer I
taught myself to play the alto saxophone... when I returned to school
and told my music director I wanted to switch from clarinet to
saxophone that I had learned over the summer he refused to let me
until I lied and said I took lessons! All of my children have
learned tons of things from books while never being taught by anyone
else. Anyone ever heard of "independent study"???
Lisa

Stephen

I have to agree that anything taught after 5th or 6th grade is far less
useful than grade school, for general knowledge, but after sending 5 kids
to public school the thing I noticed the most was how much their learning
slowed when they entered school. Four of the five were avid readers before
kindergarten and struggled with boredom with the primitive books they had
to use in school.

I don't remember consciously teaching them to read. Between Sesame Street,
which was new when my oldest was a toddler, and the fact that they were
read to daily, and were part of a family that always read, they learned
because they wanted to learn. Same with basic math. They understood
addition, subtraction and multiplication because it was in games we played
when we were together. They also understood basic parts of search because
we talked about it. If they said they were cold, I'd asked where cold
lived, and they would answer, "On adjective street." Sometimes I would say
something like, "that's right, right next to chilly and across from
freezing." It was always a fun game for all of us. They loved comparing
descriptive words and finding similar terms. They would have fun make their
own list of neighbors. We were free to follow their interests as far as
they wanted. And free to not follow an interest if it didn't fit. My
youngest did not become an avid reader until about fourth grade. She
learned to read at about 6 years old, but was always too busy to sit still
with a book. Now she's 12 and loves to read as much as the rest of us.

Subjects taught in middle and high school might be more suited to a group
situation with a teacher, but there has to be a better way. While some of
the knowledge taught in school is valuable, learning it in school, was, for
the most part, inhibiting, stifling, frustrating and most of all boring.

Stephen

Father of Christopher, Jonathan, Tiffany, Geneva ( unschooled at last ) and
Sophie ( considering unschooling ).

keetry

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~He said, "You think
> someone can just pick up a book and start reading without being
> taught?"~~
>
> Then how do so many of us have children that did exactly this!?
They
> don't just "pick up a book" one day...they DO figure out how to
read
> one day though. In my home, there are many books, video games,
printed
> words on packages etc...and a person would be exposed to those
things
> for years. So yeah, it looked like one day, a kid just picked
> something up and read it. Like magic.
>
> But they were decoding language all along.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>


This is basically what I told him. He doesn't read here so he
doesn't know your stories. I told him I do and it does happen. We
don't know any different yet because we haven't experienced it but
it certainly can be done.

I also agree that basic math and reading are probably more important
than the specialized subjects that are taught in high school. I
don't agree with my husband's idea (fear) that those things can only
be learned through teaching.

I've been making a point of telling him about all the ways our 4yo
is starting to learn to read without any teaching. It's amazing to
me. I wish my husband could experience it first hand but he's not
home a lot. He doesn't see the little steps every day. Last night we
were reading a book and my ds went through reading each of the
letters in a few words and then pronouncing the words with me. He
wanted to do it, asked me what the letters and words were, pointed
to each one and read what he could. It was such a joy to witness and
be a part of.

Alysia

Alysia

keetry

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On May 8, 2008, at 9:32 AM, keetry wrote:
>
> > He did not agree with
> > me that people could learn to read without being taught even
though
> > he can't really remember being taught to read. He said, "You
think
> > someone can just pick up a book and start reading without being
> > taught?"
>
> In a way, from a certain point of view, he's right.
>
> People can't learn to read in a vacuum. In a culture without
print,
> you couldn't hand a person a book and expect them to read.
>
> <snip>
> It makes no sense until you see it happen. Kids figure out
reading
> the same way they figured out how to speak: by observing, by
trying
> things out, by using it to get something they want. In a world
full
> of STOP and McDonalds and moms willing to answer questions (and
read
> to them) and video games where you get good feed back on why it's
> important to recognize the phrase "Do you want to save?" ;-) kids
> can't *not* figure it out.
>
> Joyce


Yeah, this is pretty much what I told him. We read to our children.
We talk to them. We interact with them. They are surrounded by
print. They will learn to read without any specific teaching. You're
right. It's not the same as never being exposed to any of that and
one day suddenly picking up a book and reading it.

Alysia

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: keetry <keetry@...>

That lead to us discussing learning to read. He did not agree with
me that people could learn to read without being taught even though
he can't really remember being taught to read. He said, "You think
someone can just pick up a book and start reading without being
taught?" Of course, my answer was yes but he didn't buy it. I went
on to explain that we are facilitating learning to read when we read
to the kids so it's not like they will ever be in a situation where
they've never seen a printed word and then all of a sudden decide to
read. However, I do believe that a person could do that if/when they
really wanted to.


=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Is there any chance you will be at either the NorthEast Unschooling
Conference or the Live and Learn Unschooling Conference?

My 12 year old son, Duncan, would be happy to talk to your husband
about reading with no lessons. I just asked him. <G> He said he would
be willing to talk with anyone who believes that one must be taught to
read (as he reads the instruction manual to his DS game). Just find us.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

________________________________________________________________________
Stand above the crowd! Get a free email address that expresses who you
are at http://domains.aol.com

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: keetry <keetry@...>

Yeah, this is pretty much what I told him. We read to our children.
We talk to them. We interact with them. They are surrounded by
print. They will learn to read without any specific teaching. You're
right. It's not the same as never being exposed to any of that and
one day suddenly picking up a book and reading it.

-=-=-=-=-

This is true with everything---not just reading.

We have a pool, so Duncan has been in the water almost every summer day
since he was born. He swam "magically" one day at four or five. Of
course, it didn't all happen *that* day. The learning was happening for
years and years. The "appearance" of being a swimmer was simply obvious
on that day.

I train dogs. It's part of my life. My kids *understand* how to work
with dogs because it's just a large part of our lives. They see me work
with them and are surrounded by dog training. I would say that they are
also "dog trainers"---but I can't say *when* that happened.

I've recently become a gardener. They see me in the garden every day.
They are surrounded by beautiful plants and fruits and vegies. I talk
about my wonders and woes. It's a part of who we are---all that
growing. What *day* are they considered gardeners?

We all love to cook. Both boys have been in the kitchen preparing and
playing with food since they were born. I don't know that any of us
knows "when" they became cooks---it was a process, but everyone's
comfortable in the kitchen.

Ben and I don't play musical instruments, so that's NOT a daily part of
our lives. We nevertheless have (at least one) musical child. He didn't
get that from simply living with us and being exposed to instruments on
a regular basis. We had to make a special effort with music
learning---it wasn't by "osmosis" like lots of these other things, but
it happened anyway.

Learning is BY FAR easiest when we are surrounded by and immersed in
whatever we're learning.

I tell you what---does your husband speak another language?

If so, is he fluent? How did he learn that language?

If not, was he "taught" a language in school? How many years? If he
isn't fluent, why NOT?

Learning a language by being completely immersed in the language and
culture is incredibly EASY. I mean---AMAZINGLY easy! Schools, though,
don't teach that way. Learning a second language in a "schooly" fashion
(by being TAUGHT by rote) rarely (although I admit it's not impossible)
produces a fluent speaker. It's HARD that way.

Living with a native-speaking family in the foreign country for six
months can produce a confident, fluent speaker---with lots of
colloquialisms and slang and figures of speech. Four years of a typical
high school language class often produces someone who can't even find a
bathroom in the foreign country.

Immerse your child in the written word (which is hard NOT to do in our
culture), and he will read as soon as he is ready.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

________________________________________________________________________
Stand above the crowd! Get a free email address that expresses who you
are at http://domains.aol.com

poonam kurani

Hi Liza,
that was a great post, so inspiring! Waiting for my DS to have mastered the skill of "Learning to Learn"....this is one major reason for me to unschool my kid.

Love Poonam


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keetry

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: keetry <keetry@...>
>
> That lead to us discussing learning to read. He did not agree with
> me that people could learn to read without being taught even though
> he can't really remember being taught to read. He said, "You think
> someone can just pick up a book and start reading without being
> taught?" Of course, my answer was yes but he didn't buy it. I went
> on to explain that we are facilitating learning to read when we
read
> to the kids so it's not like they will ever be in a situation where
> they've never seen a printed word and then all of a sudden decide
to
> read. However, I do believe that a person could do that if/when
they
> really wanted to.
>
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
> Is there any chance you will be at either the NorthEast
Unschooling
> Conference or the Live and Learn Unschooling Conference?
>
> My 12 year old son, Duncan, would be happy to talk to your husband
> about reading with no lessons. I just asked him. <G> He said he
would
> be willing to talk with anyone who believes that one must be
taught to
> read (as he reads the instruction manual to his DS game). Just
find us.
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


We won't be at the Northeast conference. I'm still trying to find a
way to go to the Live and Learn conference. We live in eastern NC so
we are relatively close. It's a huge expense, though, and I don't
think we can afford it. My mother said she might be willing to come
and split our expense since she'd be free, which leads me to a
question. Is it just the registration fee that's waived for
Grandparents or do they also get food and lodging free? In either
event, my husband will almost certainly not be able to come because
he starts his pre-deployment workups in the fall.

Alysia

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: keetry <keetry@...>

We won't be at the Northeast conference. I'm still trying to find a
way to go to the Live and Learn conference. We live in eastern NC so
we are relatively close. It's a huge expense, though, and I don't
think we can afford it. My mother said she might be willing to come
and split our expense since she'd be free, which leads me to a
question. Is it just the registration fee that's waived for
Grandparents or do they also get food and lodging free? In either
event, my husband will almost certainly not be able to come because
he starts his pre-deployment workups in the fall.

-=-=-=-

Grandparents' registration ONLY is free. *I* can comp that. But the BRA
still charges me for food and lodging for each person, so it must be
covered.

As darling as your mom may be, she still needs to pay for room and
board. <G>

Ben missed half of last year's conference due to a last minute change
in his schedule. This year's military exercise better NOT change to
conference weekend!

Ben should be slammed at work from mid-Sept through Dec due to some
crazy exercise. It's the last one for a while. Maybe then we can plan
better! He's had some awesome opportunities he's had to turn down
because of this two-year-long exercise and its planning. it's what he
likes doing---logistics and all, but he *has* to be there.

Where's your husband heading?



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicole Willoughby <cncnawilloughby@...>


If a person decides to become a dog trainer to train service dogs, or
search
and rescue or whatever they would want to gather information about
things like
dog behavior , breed traits, history, etc. Basic knowlege of reading
and math
would be extremely useful as would experience working with others of
different
ages and backgrounds ( something not gotten in ps) . However unless
their
favorite weekend pasttime is making bombs all those high school
chemistry and
physics classes will probably be useless.

-=-=-=-

The thing is, about training service dogs---or doing ANYTHING: all
those "school subjects" get learned simply by immersing yourself in
this passion.

If you are *into* training dogs, for example, you WILL *study* math and
science and history and art and social studies and literature
and---everything.

But it won't necessarily *look* like what they study in school.

You'd learn that basic math by feeding the dogs and calculating how
much food you'll need to order, etc. By estimating the distance to the
next block or by figuring how many calendars you'll need to sell. You
could learn to read by reading DOG books ---you know---what's
interesting to *you*! <g> So you *could* learn those "basics" just by
doing what you love!

History of the different breeds and their origins, breeding, nutrition,
dogs in art (there's a museum in St Louis devoted to ONLY that! <g>),
genetics, physiology, physics, form follows function, psychology, human
nature/dog nature,...

There's not a passion that I can think of that wouldn't cover all the
school subjects if you were immersed into that passion completely. (In
SC, we have to "cover" reading, writing, math, science, social studies,
literature and composition. I used that as my guide. Note---no PE, art,
drama, or music.)

Just because you *think* "bomb" classes would be useless---what if you
were training bomb detection dogs? <G>



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Ren Allen

~~Just because you *think* "bomb" classes would be useless---what if you
were training bomb detection dogs? <G>~~

Or training to become a demolitions expert. Even seemingly
"destructive" fascinations have very positive uses.:)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

keetry

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: keetry <keetry@...>
>
> We won't be at the Northeast conference. I'm still trying to find a
> way to go to the Live and Learn conference. We live in eastern NC
so
> we are relatively close. It's a huge expense, though, and I don't
> think we can afford it. My mother said she might be willing to come
> and split our expense since she'd be free, which leads me to a
> question. Is it just the registration fee that's waived for
> Grandparents or do they also get food and lodging free? In either
> event, my husband will almost certainly not be able to come because
> he starts his pre-deployment workups in the fall.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> Grandparents' registration ONLY is free. *I* can comp that. But
the BRA
> still charges me for food and lodging for each person, so it must
be
> covered.

We were thinking about getting a timeshare close by (my mom can get
one about 30 minutes away) to save money on lodging. Would you still
get charged for lodging for us?

> Where's your husband heading?

I don't know where he'll be going. It'll be his unit's regularly
scheduled deployment. They could go to Iraq or Afghanistan or
Okinawa or on a MEU. Unfortunately, there's no way for us to know
this far in advance where he'll be and what he'll be doing in
September to try to plan for him coming to the conference.

Alysia

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: keetry <keetry@...>

We were thinking about getting a timeshare close by (my mom can get
one about 30 minutes away) to save money on lodging. Would you still
get charged for lodging for us?

-=-=-=-=-

Come by hook or crook, darling! <g>

No, you would NOT be charged for lodging if you don't sleep at the BRA.
You would be responsible for the commuter meal plan though.

But I can't stress enough how *much* staying on site helps. Things
happen at 2:00am that could change your life. Seriously. <g>

But between not coming at all and staying off-site, come and stay
off-site! <G> But if can possible swing it, you'd be happier on-site.

Lat year, there was a young teen whose family stayed at the KOA. He
couldn't leave at night. Just couldn't. So he stayed in one of our
rooms (we had two). Sweet fella' who just needed to BE where the action
was.

But...uh...I don't have room for ALL the teens who want to stay at
night! <BWG>

~Kelly

lauramae117

Any idea on the cost of lodging? I went to the Conf. site, there
were no prices, just an info request form. Is it so high that they
just won't put the numbers on the site? Ballpark figure, I don't
want to give out all this info just to get a quote on the cost of a
room. Thanks. I really would like our family to go to this. This
is our first year.
Laura
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: keetry <keetry@...>
>
> We were thinking about getting a timeshare close by (my mom can get
> one about 30 minutes away) to save money on lodging. Would you
still
> get charged for lodging for us?
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Come by hook or crook, darling! <g>
>
> No, you would NOT be charged for lodging if you don't sleep at the
BRA.
> You would be responsible for the commuter meal plan though.
>
> But I can't stress enough how *much* staying on site helps. Things
> happen at 2:00am that could change your life. Seriously. <g>
>
> But between not coming at all and staying off-site, come and stay
> off-site! <G> But if can possible swing it, you'd be happier on-
site.
>
> Lat year, there was a young teen whose family stayed at the KOA.
He
> couldn't leave at night. Just couldn't. So he stayed in one of our
> rooms (we had two). Sweet fella' who just needed to BE where the
action
> was.
>
> But...uh...I don't have room for ALL the teens who want to stay at
> night! <BWG>
>
> ~Kelly
>

Ren Allen

--- In [email protected], "lauramae117"
<lauramae117@...> wrote:
>
> Any idea on the cost of lodging? I went to the Conf. site, there
> were no prices, just an info request form. Is it so high that they
> just won't put the numbers on the site? Ballpark figure, I don't
> want to give out all this info just to get a quote on the cost of a
> room. Thanks. I really would like our family to go to this. This
> is our first year.
> Laura



If you go to the website and click on "registration" it takes you to a
page that says "Registration for the 2008 Live and Learn Unschooling
Conference is now Open!
Please click *here* or on the "Store" link above."

Click on either the "store" link or the "here" link and it takes you
to the store where "2008" is one option. After you click on 2008, you
can choose to look at food plans, accommodations etc...

All the prices are right there.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Paul H. Beaulieu II

well High school level chemistry would probably be somewhat useful if
when that person had kids they thought it may be important to
understand that flouride is a neurotoxin and that it should not be
ingested even with your toothpaste or the reason ethelene glycol
(antifreeze) is both attractive to animals and kills them if digested.
all learning can be used by most people from every walk of life.
lets see as we start to postulate what is making our kids sick in their
environment, unless we have some understanding of such things we will
discount many of the baseline information that can be quite helpful in
pointing us and our doctors in the right direction. I actually while
really leaning on those critical foundational issues of the early
elementary education am of the sense that my high school years and
beyond is where i really learned to critically think. you see thinking
is no wonder, fish think, but critical thinking is one of the things
that truly separates even many people.

just a thought.
paul

Ren Allen

I actually while
> really leaning on those critical foundational issues of the early
> elementary education am of the sense that my high school years and
> beyond is where i really learned to critically think. you see thinking
> is no wonder, fish think, but critical thinking is one of the things
> that truly separates even many people.
>
> just a thought.
> paul
>

People are born with the ability to think critically. School kills that.

This is OT, but a personal request. If you're going to post here,
please quote the person you are responding to. Your writing is very
difficult to follow. Also, please separate your post a bit so it isn't
one big run-on which is also difficult to read.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul H. Beaulieu II <ballou12400@...>


well High school level chemistry would probably be somewhat useful if
when that person had kids they thought it may be important to
understand that flouride is a neurotoxin and that it should not be
ingested even with your toothpaste or the reason ethelene glycol
(antifreeze) is both attractive to animals and kills them if digested.

-=-=-=-=-

Imagine that! I just learned something OUT of the high school chemistry
classroom! As a 47 year old.

And I did NOT learn it when I was IN high school chemistry class---not
in Chemistry I OR Chemistry II. Didn't learn it in college Chemistry
either.

Did they not *teach* it at the top private prep school in the state? Or
did I just not listen? Maybe they *did* "teach" it, and maybe I just
memorized it for the final exam and immediately forgot it.

Hard to say. Teaching in schools is kind of like that. Hard to say.

-=-=-=-==-=-

all learning can be used by most people from every walk of life.

-=-=-=-=-

Would you care to elaborate?

"All learning can be used by most people from every walk of life." Is
that supposed to *mean* something?

-==-==-

lets see as we start to postulate what is making our kids sick in their
environment, unless we have some understanding of such things we will
discount many of the baseline information that can be quite helpful in
pointing us and our doctors in the right direction.

-=-=-=-=-=-

What's making kids sick? School!

That's NEVER even *considered* by doctors. Take the kid OUT of the
damned environment. THAT will cure MOST of what ails children.

-=-=-=-=-=-

I actually while really leaning on those critical foundational issues
of the early
elementary education am of the sense that my high school years and
beyond is where i really learned to critically think. you see thinking
is no wonder, fish think, but critical thinking is one of the things
that truly separates even many people.

-=-=-=-=-

Duh.

I think if you were to go look for "research" on "critical thinking
skills," you would find that from 15 on is when we do a LOT of critical
thinking. It's the "age" of deep thinking.

NOT that *I* don't believe that even infants engage in critical
thinking, but "research" would show that a LOT of deeper, *more*
critical thinking happens in mid-to-late teens years and beyond.




~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: lauramae117 <lauramae117@...>

Any idea on the cost of lodging? I went to the Conf. site, there
were no prices, just an info request form. Is it so high that they
just won't put the numbers on the site? Ballpark figure, I don't
want to give out all this info just to get a quote on the cost of a
room. Thanks. I really would like our family to go to this. This
is our first year.

-=-=-=-

Yeah---$1,500/night---payable in small, unmarked bills. <G>

The room rates vary, depending on where you want to be.

Try this:
http://liveandlearnshop.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=32_19

That's by going to the "shop" and clicking on "2008" and clicking on
"accommodations"

Then click on each of the selections to see what's available. As little
as $240 for a 'sleeps two' in Abbott and as much as $1600 for a 'sleeps
16' in one of the cottages---that's for all four nights.

The average is $360-$400 for a sleeps four for all four nights, so from
$60-100/night, depending on your needs and size of your family.

~Kelly

Ren Allen

~~"All learning can be used by most people from every walk of life." Is
that supposed to *mean* something?~~

You know, people that come barging onto a list designed for a certain
purpose, who don't even try to read the list guidelines or seek to
understand that list's purpose should be able to formulate a few clear
ideas.

New members who write someone offlist and basically call everyone here
stupid, should be able to WRITE decently. I have no problem with those
that can't use writing well, or struggle with communication. We're all
different. But if you're going to claim other people aren't so bright
and shouldn't be making certain arguments, I expect that person to be
able to articulate themselves decently.

When they can't, it makes their accusations seem pretty ludicrous.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

One of the Wechts

SNIP Well high school level chemistry would probably be somewhat useful...SNIP


****************************************************************************************


Well I am willing to bet that all of those Chemists, Dentists and Doctors who routinely use and advocate
the use of "toxins" had High School Chemistry. Yeah it helped them a lot.
And somewhere, some traditionally educated "critically thinking" person(s)
decided it cost too much to put bad tasting stuff in antifreeze
so that animals and kids wouldn't be inclined to drink it.

I would rather have my kids think for themselves NOT for the system. Thanks anyway!
We can acquire whatever information we would like just fine, without the bias/control of the system
Go ahead...Google Fluoride.

There is physical sick.
Many a parent on the list can tell how they forged the path to better
health by searching above and beyond the medical system.

And there is emotional sick.
As others on this list, my family KNOWS it can be caused by the system.
Still many people obviously don't.
They don't TEACH that school might be bad...in school!

Yep! Critical thinking is required for THAT one!!



Beth in MD
With a 12/16/19yo (not quite 20) who are happy to be guinea pigs in our great "Education Experiment".




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 12, 2008, at 4:57 PM, Paul H. Beaulieu II wrote:

> well High school level chemistry would probably be somewhat useful if
> when that person had kids they thought it may be important to
> understand that flouride is a neurotoxin and that it should not be
> ingested even with your toothpaste or the reason ethelene glycol
> (antifreeze) is both attractive to animals and kills them if digested.

I've heard both of those and neither in high school or college
chemistry. I've read them in real life from non-textbook sources.

You're confusing the distilled information that might come from a
Chemistry class with information that might get labeled "Chemistry."
You don't need a chemistry class to acquire information about
chemistry. Chemistry exists in the world.

It's *much* more useful to know how to question things and how to
research something than it is to memorize what someone else thinks
might be useful to know. One reason is that if an answer doesn't come
with a need to know, it's likely to be forgotten. (That's where 2
years of Spanish went!)

> lets see as we start to postulate what is making our kids sick in
> their
> environment, unless we have some understanding of such things we will
> discount many of the baseline information that can be quite helpful in
> pointing us and our doctors in the right direction.

And people learn to question experts by sitting in classrooms for 12+
years under the philosophy of "Sit down, shut up, do what you're told
and we'll hand you what you need to know"?

If you attend an unschooling conference you'll meet kids who aren't
facing life unexamined. Can the same be said of schooled kids? How
many schooled kids reach the end of high school with no idea what
they want to do? How many go onto college, switching majors until
they hit on something that isn't too hard?

If a schooled kid comes out of school critically thinking it's in
spite of school not because of it. Unschooled parents know that
because our kids *do* think critically without school. (Though my
daughter did attend 2 months of 2nd grade. Maybe that was key and why
she thinks critically now!)

> I actually while
> really leaning on those critical foundational issues of the early
> elementary education am of the sense that my high school years and
> beyond is where i really learned to critically think.

But apparently not to write clearly. Big words and unclear sentences
can flummox people into believing that someone knows what they're
talking about, but it won't fly here. Everything that passes through
here is scrutinized and turned inside out and upside down. Lack of
clarity just wastes time. Please reread what you write before
clicking send. Please put in paragraphs to separate topics. Don't
waste your and our time.

If I understand what you said above, I'd counter that if everyone
gave children walking lessons beginning at 9 mos then everyone would
think the walking lessons were responsible for children walking.

That sound ridiculous, and yet, without a control group of kids who
are not schooled, you and 99% of the people in the US assume that
people learn because of school. Why *would* they believe anything
else? If school is unnecessary for learning, if school just exists
and the kids would learn anyway, then all those people who've
dedicated their lives to education are wasting their time.

That statement is too broad. Unschooling takes more than removing
schools. It takes parents dedicated to their kids and helping them
explore the world. Not every parent wants to or is in a position to.
But unschoolers do know from experience that learning not only
doesn't require schools, schools get in the way of it.

> you see thinking
> is no wonder, fish think, but critical thinking is one of the things
> that truly separates even many people.

What I see is someone who is critical of what he's reading. That's
not the same as critical thinking. Understanding something new often
involves setting aside what we already believe to be true to see from
a new point of view. To see from a new mountain top, you need to get
down from your current mountain top. After examining everything from
the new mountain top if you decide you like the old one better, you
can always go back.

Here's a Buddhist parable:
=================
When a Zen Master meets a new student, there is a tea ceremony. Tea
is poured into the student�s small hand-held cup until he or she
gives a small gesture to indicate �enough, thank you.�

A long time ago there was a mind-full, accomplished, self-certain
monk who arrived at a temple for training. The Master poured tea. The
young monk gestured and gestured to stop pouring, but the Master kept
pouring tea until the cup overflowed. Why?

The Master explained, �When you arrived, your cup was already so
full, there was no room for new. Empty your cup. . .�

=================

As long as you continue to question from what you believe to be true,
you're not going to be able to understand. You can't shout at us over
on our mountain top that what we see isn't true unless you've been to
our mountain top. We've already been to yours and have examined it
top to bottom. Nearly every single one of us grew up over there. Many
of us sent our children. We know yours. You don't know ours.

Joyce



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

guideforthree

***well High school level chemistry would probably be somewhat useful
if when that person had kids they thought it may be important to
understand that flouride is a neurotoxin and that it should not be
ingested even with your toothpaste or the reason ethelene glycol
antifreeze) is both attractive to animals and kills them if
digested.
***

Funny, I never learned this in my Honors level Chemistry class. I
actually learned the part about the toothpaste when I read
Faulkner's "A Light in August" which was totally unrelated to
anything in school. I learned the part about the antifreeze from my
dad - who never took a chemistry course in his life. So your point
is...

***
all learning can be used by most people from every walk of life.
***

I once learned to calculate the sum of two to the nth power as n
approaches infinity. I find this a fun and amusing thing to do, but
I seriously doubt that more than a small percentage of the world's
population actually has need of that information.

I once learned how to graph vector fields and solve differential
equations. I would be very hard pressed to find five people on my
street who even know what diff eqs are much less use them in any way.

Have you used any astrophysics lately? I once learned a little of
that, too.

How about brain surgery? No, I haven't learned how to do that, and
at present I have no need to know.

There is a vast amount of learning available in this universe that is
useful to only a select few people.

ALL learning? MOST people? ALL walks of life? That's just like
when my three year old says her brother is ALWAYS mean to her. It's
just plain not true.

***
am of the sense that my high school years and beyond is where i
really learned to critically think.
***

And you think school is responsible for this? Have you actually read
much Piaget lately? Or any other prominent figure in the field of
cognitive development? To sum up a few years of graduate level
cognitive development courses that I took while working on my
master's degree... The human brain changes qualitatively, not
quantitatively, during the course of it's development. These changes
occur at specific age ranges. Formal operations, the stage to which
you are refering, begins during adolescence. It has nothing to do
with school level. It has to do with biological maturity. Only
about 30% of high school graduates actually achieve formal
operations. If high school was responsible for critical thinking
skills, then 100% of high school graduates would achieve this level
of brain funtioning. A child in a RU environment, where he is
challenged to think and make decisions for himself, is more likely to
reach formal operations than a child who is expected to do as he is
told all day long.

Be careful with correlation vs. causation. Just because two things
happen at the same time doesn't mean one caused the other. But, I
guess those statistics courses I took in college haven't been very
useful for you <g>.

Tina

guideforthree

***
As long as you continue to question from what you believe to be
true,
you're not going to be able to understand. You can't shout at us
over
on our mountain top that what we see isn't true unless you've been
to
our mountain top. We've already been to yours and have examined it
top to bottom. Nearly every single one of us grew up over there.
Many
of us sent our children. We know yours. You don't know ours.

Joyce
***

You rock Joyce!

I, too, have little patience for those who claim they are capable of
critical thinking, yet they can not write a gramatically correct
sentence. Apparently grammar is NOT included as part of "All
learning is useful to most people in every walk of life." However,
we have to remember this is the same guy who thinks he knows how RU
affects *my* Aspie.

Tina