Potty training & other questions
jamieminnis
Hi. My name is Jamie and I am new to both unschooling and this
group. I have two boys, ages 4 1/2 and 6. Due to my oldest's
(Jason) very negative experiences in public school, my husband and I
have decided to unschool. I want to embrace this total lifestyle
and parenting style, but I have a few questions:
1) My youngest had a very hard time potty training (very resistant
until he decided to do it himself ... imagine that!), but finally
achieved success at school, but spotty success at home. He just
gets very "into" what he is doing and misses the bodily cues that he
needs to go. Anyway, since we have pulled them out of school (a few
weeks ago) he has decided that he just wants to wear a pull-up. Is
this ok? I feel that it is, but I guess I just need some
reassurance.
2) I enjoy letting the boys stay up later than they used to. I
feel that it is really great family time, since they get to spend
more time with their dad when he gets home from work. However, my
husband feels that we are losing our husband/wife time and that life
is getting too focused on the boys, to the detriment of our
marriage. Has anyone experienced these feelings with their spouse?
What have you done?
Jamie
group. I have two boys, ages 4 1/2 and 6. Due to my oldest's
(Jason) very negative experiences in public school, my husband and I
have decided to unschool. I want to embrace this total lifestyle
and parenting style, but I have a few questions:
1) My youngest had a very hard time potty training (very resistant
until he decided to do it himself ... imagine that!), but finally
achieved success at school, but spotty success at home. He just
gets very "into" what he is doing and misses the bodily cues that he
needs to go. Anyway, since we have pulled them out of school (a few
weeks ago) he has decided that he just wants to wear a pull-up. Is
this ok? I feel that it is, but I guess I just need some
reassurance.
2) I enjoy letting the boys stay up later than they used to. I
feel that it is really great family time, since they get to spend
more time with their dad when he gets home from work. However, my
husband feels that we are losing our husband/wife time and that life
is getting too focused on the boys, to the detriment of our
marriage. Has anyone experienced these feelings with their spouse?
What have you done?
Jamie
Shannon Bonafede
Jamie,
1. My son is eight and is finally getting it. We found a watch that has a
repeating timer and best of all it vibrates and/or beeps. We started out
with two hours. Every two hours it would go off he had to go sit on the
potty for ten minutes or until he went whichever came first. He had his
first accident in weeks and it was nothing more then what I call a fart
mark. the watch is called a vibralite3 and runs about $50. It is a good
watch that he could use beyond the potty training. It also has two alarm
times and a stop watch. Let him stay in the pull-up and tell him about the
watch - let him pick out the color he wants and tell him your plans. Then
leave it to him.
2. I believe you have to make a balance. Do a family night and make sure you
have a date night once a week. Children do require sleep and raising zombies
isn't nearly as fun as well rested children. I had much the same opinion and
let the kids basically sleep when they dropped. They missed a lot of things
they wanted to do because I couldn't get them up and out on time. Together
we decided that they needed to go to bed by a certain time and that I would
help them manage their time better so they could do all the things they want
to do during the day.
3. Teeth - there are lots of options including getting one of those baby
finger brushes and baby, training or toothpaste in tons of flavors. There
are brushes that light up, ones that brush the tops and bottoms at the same
time, ones that play music... my dentist told me children only need to brush
60 seconds. My son likes to try to sing the ABC song which in my opinion is
gross (it sounds aweful) but gets the job done.
Good luck!
Shannon
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of jamieminnis
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 11:43 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Potty training & other questions
Hi. My name is Jamie and I am new to both unschooling and this
group. I have two boys, ages 4 1/2 and 6. Due to my oldest's
(Jason) very negative experiences in public school, my husband and I
have decided to unschool. I want to embrace this total lifestyle
and parenting style, but I have a few questions:
1) My youngest had a very hard time potty training (very resistant
until he decided to do it himself ... imagine that!), but finally
achieved success at school, but spotty success at home. He just
gets very "into" what he is doing and misses the bodily cues that he
needs to go. Anyway, since we have pulled them out of school (a few
weeks ago) he has decided that he just wants to wear a pull-up. Is
this ok? I feel that it is, but I guess I just need some
reassurance.
2) I enjoy letting the boys stay up later than they used to. I
feel that it is really great family time, since they get to spend
more time with their dad when he gets home from work. However, my
husband feels that we are losing our husband/wife time and that life
is getting too focused on the boys, to the detriment of our
marriage. Has anyone experienced these feelings with their spouse?
What have you done?
Jamie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
1. My son is eight and is finally getting it. We found a watch that has a
repeating timer and best of all it vibrates and/or beeps. We started out
with two hours. Every two hours it would go off he had to go sit on the
potty for ten minutes or until he went whichever came first. He had his
first accident in weeks and it was nothing more then what I call a fart
mark. the watch is called a vibralite3 and runs about $50. It is a good
watch that he could use beyond the potty training. It also has two alarm
times and a stop watch. Let him stay in the pull-up and tell him about the
watch - let him pick out the color he wants and tell him your plans. Then
leave it to him.
2. I believe you have to make a balance. Do a family night and make sure you
have a date night once a week. Children do require sleep and raising zombies
isn't nearly as fun as well rested children. I had much the same opinion and
let the kids basically sleep when they dropped. They missed a lot of things
they wanted to do because I couldn't get them up and out on time. Together
we decided that they needed to go to bed by a certain time and that I would
help them manage their time better so they could do all the things they want
to do during the day.
3. Teeth - there are lots of options including getting one of those baby
finger brushes and baby, training or toothpaste in tons of flavors. There
are brushes that light up, ones that brush the tops and bottoms at the same
time, ones that play music... my dentist told me children only need to brush
60 seconds. My son likes to try to sing the ABC song which in my opinion is
gross (it sounds aweful) but gets the job done.
Good luck!
Shannon
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of jamieminnis
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 11:43 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Potty training & other questions
Hi. My name is Jamie and I am new to both unschooling and this
group. I have two boys, ages 4 1/2 and 6. Due to my oldest's
(Jason) very negative experiences in public school, my husband and I
have decided to unschool. I want to embrace this total lifestyle
and parenting style, but I have a few questions:
1) My youngest had a very hard time potty training (very resistant
until he decided to do it himself ... imagine that!), but finally
achieved success at school, but spotty success at home. He just
gets very "into" what he is doing and misses the bodily cues that he
needs to go. Anyway, since we have pulled them out of school (a few
weeks ago) he has decided that he just wants to wear a pull-up. Is
this ok? I feel that it is, but I guess I just need some
reassurance.
2) I enjoy letting the boys stay up later than they used to. I
feel that it is really great family time, since they get to spend
more time with their dad when he gets home from work. However, my
husband feels that we are losing our husband/wife time and that life
is getting too focused on the boys, to the detriment of our
marriage. Has anyone experienced these feelings with their spouse?
What have you done?
Jamie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen
--- In [email protected], "jamieminnis"
<jamieminnis@...> wrote:
The boy who is not potty trained is wearing pull-ups now. He happily
wore underwear for about 5 months, but continued to wet & poop in his
pants. I was getting really tired of cleaning up all this (he was
usually willing to help) so I decided to let him wear pull-ups to
make clean-up easier for me. That helped me be accepting of his lack
of ability to get to the toilet.
SO I guess I am just saying - Yes it is okay.
If you think about it, we trained our children to potty in diapers.
That is what they have been doing their entire lives! Then we
(parents in general) come along and want them to stop pottying in
their pants and start using the toilet. Changes like that are not
always going to come about easily.
Karen
<jamieminnis@...> wrote:
>I
> Hi. My name is Jamie and I am new to both unschooling and this
> group. I have two boys, ages 4 1/2 and 6. Due to my oldest's
> (Jason) very negative experiences in public school, my husband and
> have decided to unschool. I want to embrace this total lifestylehe
> and parenting style, but I have a few questions:
>
> 1) My youngest had a very hard time potty training (very resistant
> until he decided to do it himself ... imagine that!), but finally
> achieved success at school, but spotty success at home. He just
> gets very "into" what he is doing and misses the bodily cues that
> needs to go. Anyway, since we have pulled them out of school (afew
> weeks ago) he has decided that he just wants to wear a pull-up. IsI have twin 4 year old boys. One is potty trained, the other not.
> this ok? I feel that it is, but I guess I just need some
> reassurance.
>
>
> Jamie
>
The boy who is not potty trained is wearing pull-ups now. He happily
wore underwear for about 5 months, but continued to wet & poop in his
pants. I was getting really tired of cleaning up all this (he was
usually willing to help) so I decided to let him wear pull-ups to
make clean-up easier for me. That helped me be accepting of his lack
of ability to get to the toilet.
SO I guess I am just saying - Yes it is okay.
If you think about it, we trained our children to potty in diapers.
That is what they have been doing their entire lives! Then we
(parents in general) come along and want them to stop pottying in
their pants and start using the toilet. Changes like that are not
always going to come about easily.
Karen
Lisa
I learned after my first that potty "training" is just that...
training you to make your kid sit on the toilet instead of waiting
until their body is ready to tell them!! With my next child I
basically gave her some underwear when she asked and that was the end
of my involvement in the process... she was fully dry day and night in
a week or so compared to months and months with my oldest! I did the
same with my last two (even my special needs child it was just later
when she wanted the underwear)
As for husband and wife time... those kids will grow up and leave ...
the time you have to spend with them is so short! Yes nurture your
relationship with your husband and be kind and receptive to his needs
but reassure him this time is so short!
Lisa B
--- In [email protected], "jamieminnis"
<jamieminnis@...> wrote:
training you to make your kid sit on the toilet instead of waiting
until their body is ready to tell them!! With my next child I
basically gave her some underwear when she asked and that was the end
of my involvement in the process... she was fully dry day and night in
a week or so compared to months and months with my oldest! I did the
same with my last two (even my special needs child it was just later
when she wanted the underwear)
As for husband and wife time... those kids will grow up and leave ...
the time you have to spend with them is so short! Yes nurture your
relationship with your husband and be kind and receptive to his needs
but reassure him this time is so short!
Lisa B
--- In [email protected], "jamieminnis"
<jamieminnis@...> wrote:
>
> Hi. My name is Jamie and I am new to both unschooling and this
> group. I have two boys, ages 4 1/2 and 6. Due to my oldest's
> (Jason) very negative experiences in public school, my husband and I
> have decided to unschool. I want to embrace this total lifestyle
> and parenting style, but I have a few questions:
>
> 1) My youngest had a very hard time potty training (very resistant
> until he decided to do it himself ... imagine that!), but finally
> achieved success at school, but spotty success at home. He just
> gets very "into" what he is doing and misses the bodily cues that he
> needs to go. Anyway, since we have pulled them out of school (a few
> weeks ago) he has decided that he just wants to wear a pull-up. Is
> this ok? I feel that it is, but I guess I just need some
> reassurance.
>
> 2) I enjoy letting the boys stay up later than they used to. I
> feel that it is really great family time, since they get to spend
> more time with their dad when he gets home from work. However, my
> husband feels that we are losing our husband/wife time and that life
> is getting too focused on the boys, to the detriment of our
> marriage. Has anyone experienced these feelings with their spouse?
> What have you done?
>
> Jamie
>
Nance Confer
unschoolingbasicsDo a family night and make sure you
have a date night once a week.
***
LOL! Riiight. I'll tell DH this and he will reschedule his work and I'll let the kids know and they can reschedule their activities and we can all sit around playing checkers one night a week and on a different night DH and I can go smooch at the movies. Which we can't afford, don't want to go to and don't need in order to be close and feel connected.
It may work for you but it would be completely the wrong tack here.
It reminds me of the suggestions that everyone eat dinner together. That's may be fine if you don't see your kids and spouse during the day but, by the time dinner is ready here, we've seen each other all day and generally enjoy a break.
Unschooling lifestyles, maybe like many others, don't fit many molds.
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have a date night once a week.
***
LOL! Riiight. I'll tell DH this and he will reschedule his work and I'll let the kids know and they can reschedule their activities and we can all sit around playing checkers one night a week and on a different night DH and I can go smooch at the movies. Which we can't afford, don't want to go to and don't need in order to be close and feel connected.
It may work for you but it would be completely the wrong tack here.
It reminds me of the suggestions that everyone eat dinner together. That's may be fine if you don't see your kids and spouse during the day but, by the time dinner is ready here, we've seen each other all day and generally enjoy a break.
Unschooling lifestyles, maybe like many others, don't fit many molds.
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
--- In [email protected], "jamieminnis"
<jamieminnis@...> wrote:
toilet because of school. Now that he doesn't have to worry about
that he can relax and do it his own way. That's the whole point of
this.
Alysia
<jamieminnis@...> wrote:
>I
> Hi. My name is Jamie and I am new to both unschooling and this
> group. I have two boys, ages 4 1/2 and 6. Due to my oldest's
> (Jason) very negative experiences in public school, my husband and
> have decided to unschool. I want to embrace this total lifestyleresistant
> and parenting style, but I have a few questions:
>
> 1) My youngest had a very hard time potty training (very
> until he decided to do it himself ... imagine that!), but finallyhe
> achieved success at school, but spotty success at home. He just
> gets very "into" what he is doing and misses the bodily cues that
> needs to go. Anyway, since we have pulled them out of school (afew
> weeks ago) he has decided that he just wants to wear a pull-up.Is
> this ok? I feel that it is, but I guess I just need someThis is absolutely fine. Maybe he felt very pressured to use the
> reassurance.
toilet because of school. Now that he doesn't have to worry about
that he can relax and do it his own way. That's the whole point of
this.
Alysia
Ren Allen
~~However, my
husband feels that we are losing our husband/wife time and that life
is getting too focused on the boys, to the detriment of our
marriage. Has anyone experienced these feelings with their spouse?
What have you done?~~
There is no single answer that might work best for you, but I can tell
you what we did. We changed our thinking!:)
We're all up at night, eating, playing etc...so dh and I spend time
together in the mornings. The kids sleep later than we do, so we'll
sit outside on the deck, watching birds and sipping tea in the
morning. It might not be that long before a sleepy-eyed child joins
us, but we do get some time to talk and connect. In fact, I'm getting
ready to go up and start tea now.
started out with two hours. Every two hours it would go off he had to
go sit on the potty for ten minutes or until he went whichever came
first.~~
This sounds invasive and unecessary. I think trust needs to extend
into these areas as well. I have one child that couldn't stay dry all
night until around the age of 11 or so. People grow into it in their
own time, barring any true physical abnormality. There are ways to
help a child be comfortable and grow into something in their own time.
raising zombies isn't nearly as fun as well rested children.~~
Well, I've never raised zombies! But my kids would think that was
pretty cool.;)
Why would you need a "family night"? I'm really curious about this
one. If a family is together and connecting (which I assume
unschooling gives that) then why a special time set aside for that
connecting? It should be as natural as breathing. And "date night"?
That happens about once every blue moon. We are adults and can find
ways to connect and be intimate without leaving our children every week.
All people need sleep, not just children. And whether they get that
sleep starting late at night or earlier, what matters is they get the
sleep...NOT when it starts! 9 hours of sleep, is 9 hours of sleep
whether it begins at 8pm or 2am. Trusting one's body is more important
than the "when".
We purposely don't plan on activities early in the morning, but when
something comes up, my children have no problem tweaking their sleep
in order to accommodate because we would only go if they really wanted
to participate.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
husband feels that we are losing our husband/wife time and that life
is getting too focused on the boys, to the detriment of our
marriage. Has anyone experienced these feelings with their spouse?
What have you done?~~
There is no single answer that might work best for you, but I can tell
you what we did. We changed our thinking!:)
We're all up at night, eating, playing etc...so dh and I spend time
together in the mornings. The kids sleep later than we do, so we'll
sit outside on the deck, watching birds and sipping tea in the
morning. It might not be that long before a sleepy-eyed child joins
us, but we do get some time to talk and connect. In fact, I'm getting
ready to go up and start tea now.
> 1. My son is eight and is finally getting it. We found a watch thathas a repeating timer and best of all it vibrates and/or beeps. We
started out with two hours. Every two hours it would go off he had to
go sit on the potty for ten minutes or until he went whichever came
first.~~
This sounds invasive and unecessary. I think trust needs to extend
into these areas as well. I have one child that couldn't stay dry all
night until around the age of 11 or so. People grow into it in their
own time, barring any true physical abnormality. There are ways to
help a child be comfortable and grow into something in their own time.
>sure you have a date night once a week. Children do require sleep and
> 2. I believe you have to make a balance. Do a family night and make
raising zombies isn't nearly as fun as well rested children.~~
Well, I've never raised zombies! But my kids would think that was
pretty cool.;)
Why would you need a "family night"? I'm really curious about this
one. If a family is together and connecting (which I assume
unschooling gives that) then why a special time set aside for that
connecting? It should be as natural as breathing. And "date night"?
That happens about once every blue moon. We are adults and can find
ways to connect and be intimate without leaving our children every week.
All people need sleep, not just children. And whether they get that
sleep starting late at night or earlier, what matters is they get the
sleep...NOT when it starts! 9 hours of sleep, is 9 hours of sleep
whether it begins at 8pm or 2am. Trusting one's body is more important
than the "when".
We purposely don't plan on activities early in the morning, but when
something comes up, my children have no problem tweaking their sleep
in order to accommodate because we would only go if they really wanted
to participate.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Carron Armstrong
My son was almost 4 when he decided he wanted to wear underwear instead of
pullups. We handed him a bottle of upholstery cleaner and a rag and taught
him how to clean up after himself in case he had an accident. He thought it
was cool. But about a week, and several accidents later, he decided that
cleaning up after himself was too much trouble and he never had an accident
again.
Was that coersive? I would say not. It was just showing him that decisions
have consequences and that we must adapt.
Carron
pullups. We handed him a bottle of upholstery cleaner and a rag and taught
him how to clean up after himself in case he had an accident. He thought it
was cool. But about a week, and several accidents later, he decided that
cleaning up after himself was too much trouble and he never had an accident
again.
Was that coersive? I would say not. It was just showing him that decisions
have consequences and that we must adapt.
Carron
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 6:53 AM, Lisa <jlblock01@...> wrote:
> I learned after my first that potty "training" is just that...
> training you to make your kid sit on the toilet instead of waiting
> until their body is ready to tell them!! With my next child I
> basically gave her some underwear when she asked and that was the end
> of my involvement in the process... she was fully dry day and night in
> a week or so compared to months and months with my oldest! I did the
> same with my last two (even my special needs child it was just later
> when she wanted the underwear)
>
> As for husband and wife time... those kids will grow up and leave ...
> the time you have to spend with them is so short! Yes nurture your
> relationship with your husband and be kind and receptive to his needs
> but reassure him this time is so short!
> Lisa B
>
> --- In [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "jamieminnis"
> <jamieminnis@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi. My name is Jamie and I am new to both unschooling and this
> > group. I have two boys, ages 4 1/2 and 6. Due to my oldest's
> > (Jason) very negative experiences in public school, my husband and I
> > have decided to unschool. I want to embrace this total lifestyle
> > and parenting style, but I have a few questions:
> >
> > 1) My youngest had a very hard time potty training (very resistant
> > until he decided to do it himself ... imagine that!), but finally
> > achieved success at school, but spotty success at home. He just
> > gets very "into" what he is doing and misses the bodily cues that he
> > needs to go. Anyway, since we have pulled them out of school (a few
> > weeks ago) he has decided that he just wants to wear a pull-up. Is
> > this ok? I feel that it is, but I guess I just need some
> > reassurance.
> >
> > 2) I enjoy letting the boys stay up later than they used to. I
> > feel that it is really great family time, since they get to spend
> > more time with their dad when he gets home from work. However, my
> > husband feels that we are losing our husband/wife time and that life
> > is getting too focused on the boys, to the detriment of our
> > marriage. Has anyone experienced these feelings with their spouse?
> > What have you done?
> >
> > Jamie
> >
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
I don't know that I think it is coersive, but I think it is mean. I clean up after Simon (11) and Linnaea (8) a lot. If they want to help, they help. Linnaea likes to clean up with the carpet cleaner when a stain requires it, so I usually offer her the opportunity to do so. But I don't set them up with the consequences of their actions. I vacuumed their rooms today. I did it because I was vacuuming the hall and I thought it would be good to get their rooms while I had the vacuum cleaner up there. The other day I went through an unpacked box, I didn't really unpack, I sort of piled all the stuff up that was in it on the floor, in Simon's room. He didn't chastize me, or tell me that I had to clean the mess up I'd made, instead he cleaned it up, and then he helped his sister to clean her room. And not because he had to, or she had to, but because she wanted her room to feel as welcoming as his room, he thought it being cleaner might help. If I made them
clean their rooms, they could never choose to do so.
When Linnaea was 3 maybe, or almost 3, Simon decided she needed to be using the toilet. I have no idea why, Simon didn't stop with diapers until we were in Kyoto and he was 3 and a 1/2 and David had bought out all the diapers in his size that he could find. He bribed her with candy. Again, I don't know why that worked, there was free access to candy in our house, but somehow Simon giving her a piece of candy when she'd used the toilet got her using the toilet. As soon as he ran out of candy, she stopped using the toilet. We got more candy in, but she was no longer willing to have him bribe her. She did it on her own a few months later, no bribes, no consequences, just being ready. And she didn't have to clean up after herself if she peed on the floor or pooped. Nor did Simon, and both of them use the toilet just fine now.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 8 May, 2008 3:30:04 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Potty training & other question
My son was almost 4 when he decided he wanted to wear underwear instead of
pullups. We handed him a bottle of upholstery cleaner and a rag and taught
him how to clean up after himself in case he had an accident. He thought it
was cool. But about a week, and several accidents later, he decided that
cleaning up after himself was too much trouble and he never had an accident
again.
Was that coersive? I would say not. It was just showing him that decisions
have consequences and that we must adapt.
Carron
clean their rooms, they could never choose to do so.
When Linnaea was 3 maybe, or almost 3, Simon decided she needed to be using the toilet. I have no idea why, Simon didn't stop with diapers until we were in Kyoto and he was 3 and a 1/2 and David had bought out all the diapers in his size that he could find. He bribed her with candy. Again, I don't know why that worked, there was free access to candy in our house, but somehow Simon giving her a piece of candy when she'd used the toilet got her using the toilet. As soon as he ran out of candy, she stopped using the toilet. We got more candy in, but she was no longer willing to have him bribe her. She did it on her own a few months later, no bribes, no consequences, just being ready. And she didn't have to clean up after herself if she peed on the floor or pooped. Nor did Simon, and both of them use the toilet just fine now.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 8 May, 2008 3:30:04 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Potty training & other question
My son was almost 4 when he decided he wanted to wear underwear instead of
pullups. We handed him a bottle of upholstery cleaner and a rag and taught
him how to clean up after himself in case he had an accident. He thought it
was cool. But about a week, and several accidents later, he decided that
cleaning up after himself was too much trouble and he never had an accident
again.
Was that coersive? I would say not. It was just showing him that decisions
have consequences and that we must adapt.
Carron
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 6:53 AM, Lisa <jlblock01@...> wrote:
> I learned after my first that potty "training" is just that...
> training you to make your kid sit on the toilet instead of waiting
> until their body is ready to tell them!! With my next child I
> basically gave her some underwear when she asked and that was the end
> of my involvement in the process... she was fully dry day and night in
> a week or so compared to months and months with my oldest! I did the
> same with my last two (even my special needs child it was just later
> when she wanted the underwear)
>
> As for husband and wife time... those kids will grow up and leave ...
> the time you have to spend with them is so short! Yes nurture your
> relationship with your husband and be kind and receptive to his needs
> but reassure him this time is so short!
> Lisa B
>
> --- In [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "jamieminnis"
> <jamieminnis@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi. My name is Jamie and I am new to both unschooling and this
> > group. I have two boys, ages 4 1/2 and 6. Due to my oldest's
> > (Jason) very negative experiences in public school, my husband and I
> > have decided to unschool. I want to embrace this total lifestyle
> > and parenting style, but I have a few questions:
> >
> > 1) My youngest had a very hard time potty training (very resistant
> > until he decided to do it himself ... imagine that!), but finally
> > achieved success at school, but spotty success at home. He just
> > gets very "into" what he is doing and misses the bodily cues that he
> > needs to go. Anyway, since we have pulled them out of school (a few
> > weeks ago) he has decided that he just wants to wear a pull-up. Is
> > this ok? I feel that it is, but I guess I just need some
> > reassurance.
> >
> > 2) I enjoy letting the boys stay up later than they used to. I
> > feel that it is really great family time, since they get to spend
> > more time with their dad when he gets home from work. However, my
> > husband feels that we are losing our husband/wife time and that life
> > is getting too focused on the boys, to the detriment of our
> > marriage. Has anyone experienced these feelings with their spouse?
> > What have you done?
> >
> > Jamie
> >
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
--- In [email protected], "Nance Confer"
<marbleface@...> wrote:
and we can all sit around playing checkers one night a week and on a
different night DH and I can go smooch at the movies. Which we can't
afford, don't want to go to and don't need in order to be close and
feel connected.
during the day but, by the time dinner is ready here, we've seen
each other all day and generally enjoy a break.
I'd be thinking about the kids the whole time. It doesn't have to be
an us or them thing. We've been able to find ways to be together,
connect, get close without having to leave the kids and without
forcing the kids to go to bed early. That works for us. Pretty soon,
too, the kids will be grown and gone and will be just me and my
husband and we'll have all the time in the world to be alone
together.
Alysia
<marbleface@...> wrote:
>and I'll let the kids know and they can reschedule their activities
> unschoolingbasicsDo a family night and make sure you
> have a date night once a week.
>
> ***
>
> LOL! Riiight. I'll tell DH this and he will reschedule his work
and we can all sit around playing checkers one night a week and on a
different night DH and I can go smooch at the movies. Which we can't
afford, don't want to go to and don't need in order to be close and
feel connected.
>together. That's may be fine if you don't see your kids and spouse
> It may work for you but it would be completely the wrong tack here.
>
> It reminds me of the suggestions that everyone eat dinner
during the day but, by the time dinner is ready here, we've seen
each other all day and generally enjoy a break.
>molds.
> Unschooling lifestyles, maybe like many others, don't fit many
>That wouldn't work for us, either. I would not enjoy myself because
> Nance
I'd be thinking about the kids the whole time. It doesn't have to be
an us or them thing. We've been able to find ways to be together,
connect, get close without having to leave the kids and without
forcing the kids to go to bed early. That works for us. Pretty soon,
too, the kids will be grown and gone and will be just me and my
husband and we'll have all the time in the world to be alone
together.
Alysia
Kim Musolff
***We're all up at night, eating, playing etc...so dh and I spend time
together in the mornings. ***
We just recently did the same thing! We used to have a lot of alone time
together when the kids had bedtimes. But they are naturally night people as
well as us, so now that has become family time. We love it! We watch tv,
listen to music (or play music--we just got a new drum set! Yeah!), go for
walks, or just hang out.
When I was a kid, the after dinner hours were very low-key and very family
oriented. We'd hang out for a while together and then get ready for bed. I
hated going to bed. I just wanted to soak up as much family time as I
could. When I became a Mom, I tried to implement the same "quick" family
hour before rushing everyone off to bed. Then DH and I had our time
together. In the last month, we've decided to give up the bedtimes, and I'm
finding it way easier to connect with EVERYONE in the family during this
time. It's so much better than a forced bedtime! Then, like in Ren's
family, the kids will sleep in and that's when DH and I find time to
connect. So far, it's working out great!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
together in the mornings. ***
We just recently did the same thing! We used to have a lot of alone time
together when the kids had bedtimes. But they are naturally night people as
well as us, so now that has become family time. We love it! We watch tv,
listen to music (or play music--we just got a new drum set! Yeah!), go for
walks, or just hang out.
When I was a kid, the after dinner hours were very low-key and very family
oriented. We'd hang out for a while together and then get ready for bed. I
hated going to bed. I just wanted to soak up as much family time as I
could. When I became a Mom, I tried to implement the same "quick" family
hour before rushing everyone off to bed. Then DH and I had our time
together. In the last month, we've decided to give up the bedtimes, and I'm
finding it way easier to connect with EVERYONE in the family during this
time. It's so much better than a forced bedtime! Then, like in Ren's
family, the kids will sleep in and that's when DH and I find time to
connect. So far, it's working out great!
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Carron Armstrong
That's an interesting way to look at it. I never thought of it as mean.
Perhaps I didn't explain well enough. I thought of it as life. After all,
if I knock over a glass of milk at the dinner table, I clean it up. I don't
expect others to do that for me, although they will often help.
We never chastised him or complained or tried to make him use the potty. In
fact, we didn't make a big deal about it all. He was using the potty some
of the time, but using his pullup a lot of the time when he said he wanted
underware. We just said that we thought it was great that he wanted to try
underwear, and if he had an accident, here's something he could use to help
clean it up. He was delighted and thought that he was being a "big boy"
cleaning up after himself. Of course, at almost 4, his cleanups weren't
exactly very thorough, and I had to do a more extensive cleanup. But after
a week or so, he decided that he was tired of cleaning up, and said he was
going to make sure he used the potty, and he did. He could have gone back
to pullups, but he made the decision to use the potty and to continue
wearing underwear.
I think that when we unschool, we have to be willing to allow our children
to experience the consequences of their decisions. Cleaning up after an
accident is a consequence. He learned that he didn't like having accidents
or cleaning them up, so he changed his behavior. I don't think that's
mean.
Carron
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
wrote:
Perhaps I didn't explain well enough. I thought of it as life. After all,
if I knock over a glass of milk at the dinner table, I clean it up. I don't
expect others to do that for me, although they will often help.
We never chastised him or complained or tried to make him use the potty. In
fact, we didn't make a big deal about it all. He was using the potty some
of the time, but using his pullup a lot of the time when he said he wanted
underware. We just said that we thought it was great that he wanted to try
underwear, and if he had an accident, here's something he could use to help
clean it up. He was delighted and thought that he was being a "big boy"
cleaning up after himself. Of course, at almost 4, his cleanups weren't
exactly very thorough, and I had to do a more extensive cleanup. But after
a week or so, he decided that he was tired of cleaning up, and said he was
going to make sure he used the potty, and he did. He could have gone back
to pullups, but he made the decision to use the potty and to continue
wearing underwear.
I think that when we unschool, we have to be willing to allow our children
to experience the consequences of their decisions. Cleaning up after an
accident is a consequence. He learned that he didn't like having accidents
or cleaning them up, so he changed his behavior. I don't think that's
mean.
Carron
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
wrote:
> I don't know that I think it is coersive, but I think it is mean. I[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> clean up after Simon (11) and Linnaea (8) a lot. If they want to help, they
> help. Linnaea likes to clean up with the carpet cleaner when a stain
> requires it, so I usually offer her the opportunity to do so. But I don't
> set them up with the consequences of their actions. I vacuumed their rooms
> today. I did it because I was vacuuming the hall and I thought it would be
> good to get their rooms while I had the vacuum cleaner up there. The other
> day I went through an unpacked box, I didn't really unpack, I sort of piled
> all the stuff up that was in it on the floor, in Simon's room. He didn't
> chastize me, or tell me that I had to clean the mess up I'd made, instead he
> cleaned it up, and then he helped his sister to clean her room. And not
> because he had to, or she had to, but because she wanted her room to feel as
> welcoming as his room, he thought it being cleaner might help. If I made
> them
> clean their rooms, they could never choose to do so.
>
> When Linnaea was 3 maybe, or almost 3, Simon decided she needed to be using
> the toilet. I have no idea why, Simon didn't stop with diapers until we were
> in Kyoto and he was 3 and a 1/2 and David had bought out all the diapers in
> his size that he could find. He bribed her with candy. Again, I don't know
> why that worked, there was free access to candy in our house, but somehow
> Simon giving her a piece of candy when she'd used the toilet got her using
> the toilet. As soon as he ran out of candy, she stopped using the toilet. We
> got more candy in, but she was no longer willing to have him bribe her. She
> did it on her own a few months later, no bribes, no consequences, just being
> ready. And she didn't have to clean up after herself if she peed on the
> floor or pooped. Nor did Simon, and both of them use the toilet just fine
> now.
>
> Schuyler
> www.waynforth.blogspot.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@... <carronna%40gmail.com>>
> To: [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, 8 May, 2008 3:30:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Potty training & other question
>
> My son was almost 4 when he decided he wanted to wear underwear instead of
> pullups. We handed him a bottle of upholstery cleaner and a rag and taught
> him how to clean up after himself in case he had an accident. He thought it
> was cool. But about a week, and several accidents later, he decided that
> cleaning up after himself was too much trouble and he never had an accident
> again.
>
> Was that coersive? I would say not. It was just showing him that decisions
> have consequences and that we must adapt.
>
> Carron
>
> On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 6:53 AM, Lisa <jlblock01@...<jlblock01%40yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > I learned after my first that potty "training" is just that...
> > training you to make your kid sit on the toilet instead of waiting
> > until their body is ready to tell them!! With my next child I
> > basically gave her some underwear when she asked and that was the end
> > of my involvement in the process... she was fully dry day and night in
> > a week or so compared to months and months with my oldest! I did the
> > same with my last two (even my special needs child it was just later
> > when she wanted the underwear)
> >
> > As for husband and wife time... those kids will grow up and leave ...
> > the time you have to spend with them is so short! Yes nurture your
> > relationship with your husband and be kind and receptive to his needs
> > but reassure him this time is so short!
> > Lisa B
> >
> > --- In [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>
> <unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > "jamieminnis"
> > <jamieminnis@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi. My name is Jamie and I am new to both unschooling and this
> > > group. I have two boys, ages 4 1/2 and 6. Due to my oldest's
> > > (Jason) very negative experiences in public school, my husband and I
> > > have decided to unschool. I want to embrace this total lifestyle
> > > and parenting style, but I have a few questions:
> > >
> > > 1) My youngest had a very hard time potty training (very resistant
> > > until he decided to do it himself ... imagine that!), but finally
> > > achieved success at school, but spotty success at home. He just
> > > gets very "into" what he is doing and misses the bodily cues that he
> > > needs to go. Anyway, since we have pulled them out of school (a few
> > > weeks ago) he has decided that he just wants to wear a pull-up. Is
> > > this ok? I feel that it is, but I guess I just need some
> > > reassurance.
> > >
> > > 2) I enjoy letting the boys stay up later than they used to. I
> > > feel that it is really great family time, since they get to spend
> > > more time with their dad when he gets home from work. However, my
> > > husband feels that we are losing our husband/wife time and that life
> > > is getting too focused on the boys, to the detriment of our
> > > marriage. Has anyone experienced these feelings with their spouse?
> > > What have you done?
> > >
> > > Jamie
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@...>
That's an interesting way to look at it. I never thought of it as mean.
Perhaps I didn't explain well enough. I thought of it as life. After
all,
if I knock over a glass of milk at the dinner table, I clean it up. I
don't
expect others to do that for me, although they will often help.
-=-=-=-=-
Joyce tells the story of Joyce's spilling a glass of milk on the floor.
Kat (pretty young) walks by and says to her, "You made the mess, YOU
clean it up."
It sounds completely different coming from the mouth of a child,
doesn't it?
Children learn best by observing how their loved ones handle a
situation. Kat didn't just "make that up." She'd heard it come from the
lips of her mom and/or dad.
I can imagine many kids would be smacked for being so cheeky. Joyce,
however, got the BIG message: "Is this how I wish to be treated? Is
this how I've been treating her?"
Joyce chose to make a change.
I did too, after I read that years and years ago. It made a huge
impression on me too. <g>
I learned from Joyce's tale that I get to be the model for their
behavior. I could be helpful and generous and kind. Or I could just
say, "That's life!"
Kids hear that sooo much! But honestly, it's not *OUR* life! OUR life
is about *helping* each other always and all ways.
I'm sure you didn't make it out to *be* mean--it probably seemed very
nice, and he was probably fine with it. It just sounds mean to *my*
(and probably many others' here) ears/eyes. Because we got rid of that
thinking so long ago.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
We never chastised him or complained or tried to make him use the
potty. In
fact, we didn't make a big deal about it all. He was using the potty
some
of the time, but using his pullup a lot of the time when he said he
wanted
underware. We just said that we thought it was great that he wanted to
try
underwear, and if he had an accident, here's something he could use to
help
clean it up. He was delighted and thought that he was being a "big boy"
cleaning up after himself. Of course, at almost 4, his cleanups weren't
exactly very thorough, and I had to do a more extensive cleanup. But
after
a week or so, he decided that he was tired of cleaning up, and said he
was
going to make sure he used the potty, and he did. He could have gone
back
to pullups, but he made the decision to use the potty and to continue
wearing underwear.
-=-=-=-=--
The thing is: it may or may not have been the reason he was out of
Pullups when he was. It may have been (and actually probably WAS)
simply because he was physically ready.
Kind of like when teachers push reading so long and so hard with
different tricks and incentives, and the child *finally* reads. Chances
are that the child would have read at that time *anyway* withOUT all
the pushing and bribing and coercion. It was just *time*.
-=-=-=-=-
I think that when we unschool, we have to be willing to allow our
children
to experience the consequences of their decisions.
-=-=-=-=-
That's assuming potty training is a "decision." It's not. It's about
being *ready*.
-=-=-=-=-
Cleaning up after an accident is a consequence.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Not always. It's often a punishment.
I can think of dozens of examples of accidents that don't have cleaning
up as a consequence. It's just *one* of many possibilities.
-=-=-=-=-
He learned that he didn't like having accidents or cleaning them up, so
he changed his behavior. I don't think that's mean.
-=-=-=-=-
Again, I don't think using a toilet is about changing behavior. It's
about being physically ready.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Stand above the crowd! Get a free email address that expresses who you
are at http://domains.aol.com
From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@...>
That's an interesting way to look at it. I never thought of it as mean.
Perhaps I didn't explain well enough. I thought of it as life. After
all,
if I knock over a glass of milk at the dinner table, I clean it up. I
don't
expect others to do that for me, although they will often help.
-=-=-=-=-
Joyce tells the story of Joyce's spilling a glass of milk on the floor.
Kat (pretty young) walks by and says to her, "You made the mess, YOU
clean it up."
It sounds completely different coming from the mouth of a child,
doesn't it?
Children learn best by observing how their loved ones handle a
situation. Kat didn't just "make that up." She'd heard it come from the
lips of her mom and/or dad.
I can imagine many kids would be smacked for being so cheeky. Joyce,
however, got the BIG message: "Is this how I wish to be treated? Is
this how I've been treating her?"
Joyce chose to make a change.
I did too, after I read that years and years ago. It made a huge
impression on me too. <g>
I learned from Joyce's tale that I get to be the model for their
behavior. I could be helpful and generous and kind. Or I could just
say, "That's life!"
Kids hear that sooo much! But honestly, it's not *OUR* life! OUR life
is about *helping* each other always and all ways.
I'm sure you didn't make it out to *be* mean--it probably seemed very
nice, and he was probably fine with it. It just sounds mean to *my*
(and probably many others' here) ears/eyes. Because we got rid of that
thinking so long ago.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
We never chastised him or complained or tried to make him use the
potty. In
fact, we didn't make a big deal about it all. He was using the potty
some
of the time, but using his pullup a lot of the time when he said he
wanted
underware. We just said that we thought it was great that he wanted to
try
underwear, and if he had an accident, here's something he could use to
help
clean it up. He was delighted and thought that he was being a "big boy"
cleaning up after himself. Of course, at almost 4, his cleanups weren't
exactly very thorough, and I had to do a more extensive cleanup. But
after
a week or so, he decided that he was tired of cleaning up, and said he
was
going to make sure he used the potty, and he did. He could have gone
back
to pullups, but he made the decision to use the potty and to continue
wearing underwear.
-=-=-=-=--
The thing is: it may or may not have been the reason he was out of
Pullups when he was. It may have been (and actually probably WAS)
simply because he was physically ready.
Kind of like when teachers push reading so long and so hard with
different tricks and incentives, and the child *finally* reads. Chances
are that the child would have read at that time *anyway* withOUT all
the pushing and bribing and coercion. It was just *time*.
-=-=-=-=-
I think that when we unschool, we have to be willing to allow our
children
to experience the consequences of their decisions.
-=-=-=-=-
That's assuming potty training is a "decision." It's not. It's about
being *ready*.
-=-=-=-=-
Cleaning up after an accident is a consequence.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Not always. It's often a punishment.
I can think of dozens of examples of accidents that don't have cleaning
up as a consequence. It's just *one* of many possibilities.
-=-=-=-=-
He learned that he didn't like having accidents or cleaning them up, so
he changed his behavior. I don't think that's mean.
-=-=-=-=-
Again, I don't think using a toilet is about changing behavior. It's
about being physically ready.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Stand above the crowd! Get a free email address that expresses who you
are at http://domains.aol.com
Carron Armstrong
I'm a little confused. When you say, "Not always. It's often a
punishment," are you saying that I was punishing my son when I gave him the
tools to clean up the sofa when he peed on it? It sounds like you're saying
that when I teach my child to wash his dirty clothes or clean up the spilled
milk that that's not part of the unschooling philosophy.
Carron
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
punishment," are you saying that I was punishing my son when I gave him the
tools to clean up the sofa when he peed on it? It sounds like you're saying
that when I teach my child to wash his dirty clothes or clean up the spilled
milk that that's not part of the unschooling philosophy.
Carron
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@...>
I'm a little confused. When you say, "Not always. It's often a
punishment," are you saying that I was punishing my son when I gave him
the
tools to clean up the sofa when he peed on it?
-==-=-=-=-
Not necessarily. But my children would have felt as if I were
abandoning them and not helping them if *I* were to do that.
Your child seems to have enjoyed it for a while.
-=-=-=-=-=-
It sounds like you're saying
that when I teach my child to wash his dirty clothes or clean up the
spilled
milk that that's not part of the unschooling philosophy.
=-=-=-=-=-
Do you understand the difference between "teaching" and "learning"?
When you say, "when I teach," what do you mean?
*I* make it a point not to teach my children anything. <g> But they're
*incredible* learners!
Often, the "lesson" we are trying to "teach" is not what is actually
learned.
They *will* learn to wash their clothes and clean up after
themselves...over time...if we model lovingly washing clothes and
cleaning spills for our loved ones. We don't have to *make* them do
these things in order for them to learn.
Very often, children who are made to do chores learn to make others do
chores for them. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Stand above the crowd! Get a free email address that expresses who you
are at http://domains.aol.com
From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@...>
I'm a little confused. When you say, "Not always. It's often a
punishment," are you saying that I was punishing my son when I gave him
the
tools to clean up the sofa when he peed on it?
-==-=-=-=-
Not necessarily. But my children would have felt as if I were
abandoning them and not helping them if *I* were to do that.
Your child seems to have enjoyed it for a while.
-=-=-=-=-=-
It sounds like you're saying
that when I teach my child to wash his dirty clothes or clean up the
spilled
milk that that's not part of the unschooling philosophy.
=-=-=-=-=-
Do you understand the difference between "teaching" and "learning"?
When you say, "when I teach," what do you mean?
*I* make it a point not to teach my children anything. <g> But they're
*incredible* learners!
Often, the "lesson" we are trying to "teach" is not what is actually
learned.
They *will* learn to wash their clothes and clean up after
themselves...over time...if we model lovingly washing clothes and
cleaning spills for our loved ones. We don't have to *make* them do
these things in order for them to learn.
Very often, children who are made to do chores learn to make others do
chores for them. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
Stand above the crowd! Get a free email address that expresses who you
are at http://domains.aol.com
Carron Armstrong
Yes, I do know the difference between teaching and learning.
But, my children -- and maybe it's just my kids -- but they don't learn
everything through watching me and others. Here's an example: I do the
laundry in the family, at least most of the time. Sometimes my husband will
do a load or two. I will not go into my son's room (he's 15) unless I
absolutely have to. I'm not a neat freak (I don't think), but I do like my
living space to be organized enough that I can find things, without a lot of
dirty dishes and trash on the floor. That said, my son's room is his and he
can do with it what he wants. I just find it too stressful to go in there.
So, I asked him a long time ago to bring his laundry downstairs for
washing.
He learned that if he didn't bring his clothes down, they didn't get
washed. Once as I was about to climb into bed exhausted after an extremely
hectic day, my son -- then about 12 -- came into my room panic stricken. He
had to have a particular shirt for some activity he was participating in the
next day and he really wanted it washed. Any other night, I would have been
happy to help, but this night I was fighting back tears, I was so tired.
So, I told him that I could not stay up to wash his clothes, but I would be
happy to show him how to do it, which I did. He did a fine job, went to his
activity the next day in a clean shirt, and seemed quite happy about it all.
Now, he had seen me wash, dry, fold and put away clothes for 12 years, but I
don't think he had any clue as to how to go about it. I showed him how to
do it. Did I teach him? Sure. Did he learn? Sure.
Since then, I still do his laundry. But probably every week or two, there's
something he wants washed for the next day. He doesn't even ask me to do
it. He just does it himself.
Carron
But, my children -- and maybe it's just my kids -- but they don't learn
everything through watching me and others. Here's an example: I do the
laundry in the family, at least most of the time. Sometimes my husband will
do a load or two. I will not go into my son's room (he's 15) unless I
absolutely have to. I'm not a neat freak (I don't think), but I do like my
living space to be organized enough that I can find things, without a lot of
dirty dishes and trash on the floor. That said, my son's room is his and he
can do with it what he wants. I just find it too stressful to go in there.
So, I asked him a long time ago to bring his laundry downstairs for
washing.
He learned that if he didn't bring his clothes down, they didn't get
washed. Once as I was about to climb into bed exhausted after an extremely
hectic day, my son -- then about 12 -- came into my room panic stricken. He
had to have a particular shirt for some activity he was participating in the
next day and he really wanted it washed. Any other night, I would have been
happy to help, but this night I was fighting back tears, I was so tired.
So, I told him that I could not stay up to wash his clothes, but I would be
happy to show him how to do it, which I did. He did a fine job, went to his
activity the next day in a clean shirt, and seemed quite happy about it all.
Now, he had seen me wash, dry, fold and put away clothes for 12 years, but I
don't think he had any clue as to how to go about it. I showed him how to
do it. Did I teach him? Sure. Did he learn? Sure.
Since then, I still do his laundry. But probably every week or two, there's
something he wants washed for the next day. He doesn't even ask me to do
it. He just does it himself.
Carron
On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 1:03 AM, <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@... <carronna%40gmail.com>>
>
> I'm a little confused. When you say, "Not always. It's often a
> punishment," are you saying that I was punishing my son when I gave him
> the
> tools to clean up the sofa when he peed on it?
>
> -==-=-=-=-
>
> Not necessarily. But my children would have felt as if I were
> abandoning them and not helping them if *I* were to do that.
>
> Your child seems to have enjoyed it for a while.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> It sounds like you're saying
> that when I teach my child to wash his dirty clothes or clean up the
> spilled
> milk that that's not part of the unschooling philosophy.
>
> =-=-=-=-=-
>
> Do you understand the difference between "teaching" and "learning"?
>
> When you say, "when I teach," what do you mean?
>
> *I* make it a point not to teach my children anything. <g> But they're
> *incredible* learners!
>
> Often, the "lesson" we are trying to "teach" is not what is actually
> learned.
>
> They *will* learn to wash their clothes and clean up after
> themselves...over time...if we model lovingly washing clothes and
> cleaning spills for our loved ones. We don't have to *make* them do
> these things in order for them to learn.
>
> Very often, children who are made to do chores learn to make others do
> chores for them. <g>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org<http://www.liveandlearnconference.org/>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Stand above the crowd! Get a free email address that expresses who you
> are at http://domains.aol.com
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 9, 2008, at 1:47 AM, Carron Armstrong wrote:
your individual family. The ideas presented on the list need to help
parents build relationships with their kids, help the parents be
trustworthy, help the parents be respectful.
For most parents implementing the idea of handing a child a bottle of
cleaner for when the child wets the couch -- which on the surface
sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea -- would not turn into an aha
moment for the child. It would turn into a power struggle and a great
deal of unhappiness.
Lots of parenting ideas work because of the parent's or child's
personality or because of what else is going on between parent and
child outside of the suggestion. Those kind don't work well here. The
ideas that will work here are ideas that put the relationship first
and work in solving the problem around those constraints.
There's thousands of ideas that "work" for a family. But if someone
doesn't understand why it worked, hasn't examined it upside down and
inside out to test how it feels if it was used on them, it's not
going to be helpful for people who are trying to let go of
conventional parenting models.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> When you say, "Not always. It's often aIt doesn't sound like it *but* this list is about ideas not about
> punishment," are you saying that I was punishing my son when I gave
> him the
> tools to clean up the sofa when he peed on it?
your individual family. The ideas presented on the list need to help
parents build relationships with their kids, help the parents be
trustworthy, help the parents be respectful.
For most parents implementing the idea of handing a child a bottle of
cleaner for when the child wets the couch -- which on the surface
sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea -- would not turn into an aha
moment for the child. It would turn into a power struggle and a great
deal of unhappiness.
Lots of parenting ideas work because of the parent's or child's
personality or because of what else is going on between parent and
child outside of the suggestion. Those kind don't work well here. The
ideas that will work here are ideas that put the relationship first
and work in solving the problem around those constraints.
There's thousands of ideas that "work" for a family. But if someone
doesn't understand why it worked, hasn't examined it upside down and
inside out to test how it feels if it was used on them, it's not
going to be helpful for people who are trying to let go of
conventional parenting models.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~"Not always. It's often a
punishment," are you saying that I was punishing my son when I gave
him the
tools to clean up the sofa when he peed on it?~~
Sure it's a punishment. A "natural consequence" happens without a
human being enforcing anything. When you make someone do something, in
order to teach them a lesson, there's nothing natural about it.
If it's an acceptable way to operate in the world, then why isn't it
acceptable for adults to do that to each other?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
punishment," are you saying that I was punishing my son when I gave
him the
tools to clean up the sofa when he peed on it?~~
Sure it's a punishment. A "natural consequence" happens without a
human being enforcing anything. When you make someone do something, in
order to teach them a lesson, there's nothing natural about it.
If it's an acceptable way to operate in the world, then why isn't it
acceptable for adults to do that to each other?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
keetry
--- In [email protected], "Carron Armstrong"
<carronna@...> wrote:
requirement and help is given and the child really wants to do it. I
think maybe I would've just cleaned up the messes without any
comment to or expectation of my child. If he expressed a desire to
help clean up, then I would've given him the spray bottle. My oldest
son wet the bed until he was at least 10 years old. I never once
told him he had to clean up his sheets and mattress. I just did it.
Alysia
<carronna@...> wrote:
>mean.
> That's an interesting way to look at it. I never thought of it as
> Perhaps I didn't explain well enough. I thought of it as life.After all,
> if I knock over a glass of milk at the dinner table, I clean itup. I don't
> expect others to do that for me, although they will often help.I guess it doesn't necessarily have to be mean if it's not a
requirement and help is given and the child really wants to do it. I
think maybe I would've just cleaned up the messes without any
comment to or expectation of my child. If he expressed a desire to
help clean up, then I would've given him the spray bottle. My oldest
son wet the bed until he was at least 10 years old. I never once
told him he had to clean up his sheets and mattress. I just did it.
Alysia
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Carron Armstrong <carronna@...> wrote:
__,_._,I think that when we unschool, we have to be willing to allow our children
to experience the consequences of their decisions. Cleaning up after an
accident is a consequence. He learned that he didn't like having accidents
or cleaning them up, so he changed his behavior. I don't think that's
mean.
=\=\=\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=___
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
So lets say your DH has an accident. He spills something . Would you not help him clean it up because its a consequence and he needs to change his behavior????
It is like you are saying your ds is making a choice of having potty accidents.
Lets say you spill pasta sauce all over the kitchen and your DH walks by and say:
"Hey, you need to clean all that up . It is your consequence for having an accident so change your behavior."
How does that feel now??
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__,_._,I think that when we unschool, we have to be willing to allow our children
to experience the consequences of their decisions. Cleaning up after an
accident is a consequence. He learned that he didn't like having accidents
or cleaning them up, so he changed his behavior. I don't think that's
mean.
=\=\=\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=___
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
So lets say your DH has an accident. He spills something . Would you not help him clean it up because its a consequence and he needs to change his behavior????
It is like you are saying your ds is making a choice of having potty accidents.
Lets say you spill pasta sauce all over the kitchen and your DH walks by and say:
"Hey, you need to clean all that up . It is your consequence for having an accident so change your behavior."
How does that feel now??
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Hampton
when I started unschooling and this list I talked about how I would "make" my highly physical and spirited children clean up whatever she knocked over when she was angry- I was told how mean that was and I thought everyone was nuts- but then I read about the mom and the milk and others and I started cleaning things up and eventually (a few months) the girls started helping each other and me and themselves when they spilled something-
sometimes it is implied that you did it you clean it up which to a child can be daunting- do they know they do not HAVE to clean it up or that you would help if they needed you to?
I love it when I spill something and someone comes to help or runs to get a rag or something-
Julie
www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com<http://www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com/>
sometimes it is implied that you did it you clean it up which to a child can be daunting- do they know they do not HAVE to clean it up or that you would help if they needed you to?
I love it when I spill something and someone comes to help or runs to get a rag or something-
Julie
www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com<http://www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com/>
----- Original Message -----
From: Joyce Fetteroll<mailto:jfetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 4:16 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Potty training & other question
On May 9, 2008, at 1:47 AM, Carron Armstrong wrote:
> When you say, "Not always. It's often a
> punishment," are you saying that I was punishing my son when I gave
> him the
> tools to clean up the sofa when he peed on it?
It doesn't sound like it *but* this list is about ideas not about
your individual family. The ideas presented on the list need to help
parents build relationships with their kids, help the parents be
trustworthy, help the parents be respectful.
For most parents implementing the idea of handing a child a bottle of
cleaner for when the child wets the couch -- which on the surface
sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea -- would not turn into an aha
moment for the child. It would turn into a power struggle and a great
deal of unhappiness.
Lots of parenting ideas work because of the parent's or child's
personality or because of what else is going on between parent and
child outside of the suggestion. Those kind don't work well here. The
ideas that will work here are ideas that put the relationship first
and work in solving the problem around those constraints.
There's thousands of ideas that "work" for a family. But if someone
doesn't understand why it worked, hasn't examined it upside down and
inside out to test how it feels if it was used on them, it's not
going to be helpful for people who are trying to let go of
conventional parenting models.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~I love it when I spill something and someone comes to help or runs
to get a rag
or something-~~
That's really sweet. If we think about how adults treat each other
(ideally anyway) and apply that to how we treat children (as far as
kindness and empathy) it goes a long way to helping us shift into
"partner" mode rather than "teaching lessons" mode.:)
I really don't like to be treated badly when I make mistakes, neither
do children. Are there really mistakes anyway? That's all part of
learning too...which is why I like Kelly's description of them as
"learning-takes".
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
to get a rag
or something-~~
That's really sweet. If we think about how adults treat each other
(ideally anyway) and apply that to how we treat children (as far as
kindness and empathy) it goes a long way to helping us shift into
"partner" mode rather than "teaching lessons" mode.:)
I really don't like to be treated badly when I make mistakes, neither
do children. Are there really mistakes anyway? That's all part of
learning too...which is why I like Kelly's description of them as
"learning-takes".
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Carron Armstrong
I guess you guys missed the part about my cleaning up the pee. And, yes, I
am saying that he had a choice. Using the potty was his idea. Wearing
underwear was his idea. He was and had been using the potty regularly for
some time, knew the cues and acted on them. But, he would also just pee and
poop in his Pullup because he felt like it or because he didn't want to
leave the show he was watching. (We noticed that this happened most often
in front of the TV).
So, when he changed to underwear, I knew he was perfectly capable of not
peeing and pooping in his underwear. I also figured that he would not
necessarily alter his behavior just because he was in underwear. So, I gave
him the tools to take care of the issue until he decided not to pee on the
sofa. During the week, he wet the sofa about once a day. He'd go get the
spray and the sponge and do his almost 4-year-old best at cleaning up, then
I or his dad would finish the job for him.
The problem I'm having is that for all but the smallest children, everything
is a choice. In this case, I knew that my son was making a choice. One of
the consequences of that choice was that it caused discomfort and
difficulties for the other members of the family. Since we live in a
family unit, we encourage our kids to be sensitive to other members of the
family.
I see big difference between a child who chooses to pee on the sofa rather
than walk to the bathroom, and a child who accidently spills his milk. If
I spilled a jar of spaghetti sauce on the floor, I'd appreciate the help,
but I wouldn't expect anyone to help me clean it up. If my husband peed on
the sofa I'd expect him to clean it up, too. If my roommate peed on the
sofa, I'd expect him to clean it up. I don't understand why unschooling
philosophy would expect it to work any differently with my children.
Carron
On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 11:00 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <
polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
am saying that he had a choice. Using the potty was his idea. Wearing
underwear was his idea. He was and had been using the potty regularly for
some time, knew the cues and acted on them. But, he would also just pee and
poop in his Pullup because he felt like it or because he didn't want to
leave the show he was watching. (We noticed that this happened most often
in front of the TV).
So, when he changed to underwear, I knew he was perfectly capable of not
peeing and pooping in his underwear. I also figured that he would not
necessarily alter his behavior just because he was in underwear. So, I gave
him the tools to take care of the issue until he decided not to pee on the
sofa. During the week, he wet the sofa about once a day. He'd go get the
spray and the sponge and do his almost 4-year-old best at cleaning up, then
I or his dad would finish the job for him.
The problem I'm having is that for all but the smallest children, everything
is a choice. In this case, I knew that my son was making a choice. One of
the consequences of that choice was that it caused discomfort and
difficulties for the other members of the family. Since we live in a
family unit, we encourage our kids to be sensitive to other members of the
family.
I see big difference between a child who chooses to pee on the sofa rather
than walk to the bathroom, and a child who accidently spills his milk. If
I spilled a jar of spaghetti sauce on the floor, I'd appreciate the help,
but I wouldn't expect anyone to help me clean it up. If my husband peed on
the sofa I'd expect him to clean it up, too. If my roommate peed on the
sofa, I'd expect him to clean it up. I don't understand why unschooling
philosophy would expect it to work any differently with my children.
Carron
On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 11:00 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <
polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Carron Armstrong <carronna@... <carronna%40gmail.com>> wrote:
> __,_._,I think that when we unschool, we have to be willing to allow our
> children
> to experience the consequences of their decisions. Cleaning up after an
> accident is a consequence. He learned that he didn't like having accidents
> or cleaning them up, so he changed his behavior. I don't think that's
> mean.
>
> =\=\=\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=___
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> So lets say your DH has an accident. He spills something . Would you not
> help him clean it up because its a consequence and he needs to change his
> behavior????
> It is like you are saying your ds is making a choice of having potty
> accidents.
> Lets say you spill pasta sauce all over the kitchen and your DH walks by
> and say:
> "Hey, you need to clean all that up . It is your consequence for having an
> accident so change your behavior."
> How does that feel now??
>
> Alex Polikowsky
> http://polykow.blogspot.com/
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
diana jenner
On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Carron Armstrong <carronna@...> wrote:
waking up wet on the sofa. He's 9.5. Choice? Really? Would Hayden *choose*
to pee on the sofa, creating extra work, extra laundry and extra angst?? I
know he doesn't -- he's *told* me so!!! +I promise a kid would rather do
*anything* by choice than to have their accidents become cause for shame.
I've had moments of not knowing the right thing to say & I've erred on the
side of not being as kind and I could be. And I've hurt his feelings -
deeply. For that I can only apologize and behave in ways that show I have
changed my thinking and that kind of injury will NOT happen again to us. We
use a crib liner & wool blanket (small enough to be totally portable) & wash
it every day it's wet. I've got bacterial cleaner for the cushions, in case
of spillovers (or when I don't get the spot made up in time). We've got a
$60 sofa; it'd take A LOT more than $60 in therapy to recover from a mom who
shames accidents.
H helps out by picking up the wet bedding and putting it in the laundry
room; sometimes he remembers to pick up his wet pants and sometimes he
doesn't, I get them in the laundry room quickly, while I'm cleaning cushions
and bringing them outside to dry. Yes, every day sometimes. Sometimes I
start out a martyr and figure out while scrubbing that my kid needs his
mama, not a martyr & the transformation is completed before the cleaning is
done! The days I'm really proud of, are the ones where there martyr is not
even thought of!
When my dad noticed how I handled Hayden's bedwetting, he came up with
heretofore unheard stories of his childhood and his own struggles with
bedwetting. He commented how shameful it was for his sister, who wet the bed
until she was 13; it was less bad for him, being the oldest and having it
self-resolve at about age 10.
I've looked at dietary connections (originally we thought it was linked to
yellow food coloring) and exhaustion levels (mostly happens when he totally
wiped out when he finally sleeps) and pee frequency (he's wet the bed after
a big pee before sleep!) -- He's declined goodnites (a negative connotation
from another friend who wears them) & is open to other ideas I may have
(because I'm coming from a "help you" perspective, rather than a "blame you"
or "fix you" place). I picked up some homeopathic tabs today, I'll offer
them to him (a TRUE offer, if he declines, I'm not attached) and see how
that goes. Regardless, I'm honored to have the job of clean-up for the short
time it lasts.
I see big difference between a child who chooses to pee on the sofa rather
4-5 weeks of his life). I treated it as one would expect, I cleaned it up
without shame or blame. He knew I had my hands full caring for him and our 2
& 4 year old children and working full-time - he would never, ever *choose*
to create more work for me.
The least I can do is treat his son with the same kindness I gave to him;
the same kindness Hayden already witnessed me extending to Mitch. (isn't
that why Mitch chose me to be the mother of his children?)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The problem I'm having is that for all but the smallest children,Hayden still pees at night sometimes. Sometimes it's an entire week of
> everything
> is a choice. In this case, I knew that my son was making a choice. One of
> the consequences of that choice was that it caused discomfort and
> difficulties for the other members of the family. Since we live in a
> family unit, we encourage our kids to be sensitive to other members of the
> family.
>
waking up wet on the sofa. He's 9.5. Choice? Really? Would Hayden *choose*
to pee on the sofa, creating extra work, extra laundry and extra angst?? I
know he doesn't -- he's *told* me so!!! +I promise a kid would rather do
*anything* by choice than to have their accidents become cause for shame.
I've had moments of not knowing the right thing to say & I've erred on the
side of not being as kind and I could be. And I've hurt his feelings -
deeply. For that I can only apologize and behave in ways that show I have
changed my thinking and that kind of injury will NOT happen again to us. We
use a crib liner & wool blanket (small enough to be totally portable) & wash
it every day it's wet. I've got bacterial cleaner for the cushions, in case
of spillovers (or when I don't get the spot made up in time). We've got a
$60 sofa; it'd take A LOT more than $60 in therapy to recover from a mom who
shames accidents.
H helps out by picking up the wet bedding and putting it in the laundry
room; sometimes he remembers to pick up his wet pants and sometimes he
doesn't, I get them in the laundry room quickly, while I'm cleaning cushions
and bringing them outside to dry. Yes, every day sometimes. Sometimes I
start out a martyr and figure out while scrubbing that my kid needs his
mama, not a martyr & the transformation is completed before the cleaning is
done! The days I'm really proud of, are the ones where there martyr is not
even thought of!
When my dad noticed how I handled Hayden's bedwetting, he came up with
heretofore unheard stories of his childhood and his own struggles with
bedwetting. He commented how shameful it was for his sister, who wet the bed
until she was 13; it was less bad for him, being the oldest and having it
self-resolve at about age 10.
I've looked at dietary connections (originally we thought it was linked to
yellow food coloring) and exhaustion levels (mostly happens when he totally
wiped out when he finally sleeps) and pee frequency (he's wet the bed after
a big pee before sleep!) -- He's declined goodnites (a negative connotation
from another friend who wears them) & is open to other ideas I may have
(because I'm coming from a "help you" perspective, rather than a "blame you"
or "fix you" place). I picked up some homeopathic tabs today, I'll offer
them to him (a TRUE offer, if he declines, I'm not attached) and see how
that goes. Regardless, I'm honored to have the job of clean-up for the short
time it lasts.
I see big difference between a child who chooses to pee on the sofa rather
> than walk to the bathroom, and a child who accidently spills his milk. IfMy husband did pee on his La-z-boy, often even (he was in diapers the last
> I spilled a jar of spaghetti sauce on the floor, I'd appreciate the help,
> but I wouldn't expect anyone to help me clean it up. If my husband peed on
> the sofa I'd expect him to clean it up, too. If my roommate peed on the
> sofa, I'd expect him to clean it up. I don't understand why unschooling
> philosophy would expect it to work any differently with my children.
> .,_._,___
>
4-5 weeks of his life). I treated it as one would expect, I cleaned it up
without shame or blame. He knew I had my hands full caring for him and our 2
& 4 year old children and working full-time - he would never, ever *choose*
to create more work for me.
The least I can do is treat his son with the same kindness I gave to him;
the same kindness Hayden already witnessed me extending to Mitch. (isn't
that why Mitch chose me to be the mother of his children?)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi Bezzola
~~We've got a $60 sofa; it'd take A LOT more than $60 in therapy to recover from a mom who shames accidents.~~
We've commented often to each other that one of the wisest parenting (and sanity!) decisions we've made is to *not* replace our hand-me-down couch because I honestly wouldn't care if I came into the living room one morning and the girls had decided to cut it in half! So we have lots of accidents and food spills on our couch and I simply don't care. It's some kind of magic material that shows nothing. My girls' feelings are *alot* more important than how I feel about accidents/spills on our couch.
Jodi
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We've commented often to each other that one of the wisest parenting (and sanity!) decisions we've made is to *not* replace our hand-me-down couch because I honestly wouldn't care if I came into the living room one morning and the girls had decided to cut it in half! So we have lots of accidents and food spills on our couch and I simply don't care. It's some kind of magic material that shows nothing. My girls' feelings are *alot* more important than how I feel about accidents/spills on our couch.
Jodi
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
--- In [email protected], "diana jenner"
<hahamommy@...> wrote:
wet his bed when he was older. By the time he was 8 or 9 it happened
very infrequently. I finally figured out that it had to do with
having contact with his bio dad. That was very stressful for him
because his dad is not a reliable, honest person. He would promise
things and then not follow through. My ds would wet the bed the same
night he talked to his dad on the phone (which wasn't very often or
regular) and wet his bed again when the time came and went that his
dad has promised to do something. Whenever his dad was out of the
picture for a long time my son would stop wetting the bed.
Alysia
<hahamommy@...> wrote:
>linked to
> I've looked at dietary connections (originally we thought it was
> yellow food coloring) and exhaustion levels (mostly happens whenhe totally
> wiped out when he finally sleeps) and pee frequency (he's wet thebed after
> a big pee before sleep!) --This reminded of the circumstances around which my oldest son would
wet his bed when he was older. By the time he was 8 or 9 it happened
very infrequently. I finally figured out that it had to do with
having contact with his bio dad. That was very stressful for him
because his dad is not a reliable, honest person. He would promise
things and then not follow through. My ds would wet the bed the same
night he talked to his dad on the phone (which wasn't very often or
regular) and wet his bed again when the time came and went that his
dad has promised to do something. Whenever his dad was out of the
picture for a long time my son would stop wetting the bed.
Alysia
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@...>
But, my children -- and maybe it's just my kids -- but they don't learn
everything through watching me and others.
-=-=-=-=-
They learn. But maybe not what you think.
-=-=-=-=-=-
He learned that if he didn't bring his clothes down, they didn't get
washed.
-=-=-=-=-
Maybe.
Or maybe he learned that *his* stuff isn't that important to you.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Once as I was about to climb into bed exhausted after an extremely
hectic day, my son -- then about 12 -- came into my room panic
stricken. He
had to have a particular shirt for some activity he was participating
in the
next day and he really wanted it washed. Any other night, I would have
been
happy to help, but this night I was fighting back tears, I was so tired.
So, I told him that I could not stay up to wash his clothes, but I
would be
happy to show him how to do it, which I did. He did a fine job, went
to his
activity the next day in a clean shirt, and seemed quite happy about it
all.
-=-=-=-
Too tired to DO it, but not too tired to show him how?
It's seems so much easier for *me* to just DO it than to show someone
how. That *always* takes me longer. But I do that a lot because they
want to know.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Now, he had seen me wash, dry, fold and put away clothes for 12 years,
but I
don't think he had any clue as to how to go about it.
-=-=-==-=-
Most 12 year olds have no need of washing clothes. That's what they
have moms for! <G>
My 12 year old still loves for me to clean his room and fix his supper
and wash his clothes. He can *do* all of that, but none of those things
are priorities for him. He's much more interested in whatever he's
doing. He's busy doing what 12 year olds do.
They kind of "age into" a lot of things. They learn because it's
important to them.
Maybe your son's need of clean clothes was important enough for him to
learn. That's natural.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I showed him how to do it. Did I teach him? Sure. Did he learn?
Sure.
-==-=-=-
Sure.
But did you make him learn to do laundry or did he choose to learn to
do laundry?
Maybe a little of both.
But if he hadn't have wanted to, how many "lessons" do you think it
would have taken?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@...>
But, my children -- and maybe it's just my kids -- but they don't learn
everything through watching me and others.
-=-=-=-=-
They learn. But maybe not what you think.
-=-=-=-=-=-
He learned that if he didn't bring his clothes down, they didn't get
washed.
-=-=-=-=-
Maybe.
Or maybe he learned that *his* stuff isn't that important to you.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Once as I was about to climb into bed exhausted after an extremely
hectic day, my son -- then about 12 -- came into my room panic
stricken. He
had to have a particular shirt for some activity he was participating
in the
next day and he really wanted it washed. Any other night, I would have
been
happy to help, but this night I was fighting back tears, I was so tired.
So, I told him that I could not stay up to wash his clothes, but I
would be
happy to show him how to do it, which I did. He did a fine job, went
to his
activity the next day in a clean shirt, and seemed quite happy about it
all.
-=-=-=-
Too tired to DO it, but not too tired to show him how?
It's seems so much easier for *me* to just DO it than to show someone
how. That *always* takes me longer. But I do that a lot because they
want to know.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Now, he had seen me wash, dry, fold and put away clothes for 12 years,
but I
don't think he had any clue as to how to go about it.
-=-=-==-=-
Most 12 year olds have no need of washing clothes. That's what they
have moms for! <G>
My 12 year old still loves for me to clean his room and fix his supper
and wash his clothes. He can *do* all of that, but none of those things
are priorities for him. He's much more interested in whatever he's
doing. He's busy doing what 12 year olds do.
They kind of "age into" a lot of things. They learn because it's
important to them.
Maybe your son's need of clean clothes was important enough for him to
learn. That's natural.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I showed him how to do it. Did I teach him? Sure. Did he learn?
Sure.
-==-=-=-
Sure.
But did you make him learn to do laundry or did he choose to learn to
do laundry?
Maybe a little of both.
But if he hadn't have wanted to, how many "lessons" do you think it
would have taken?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: jamieminnis <jamieminnis@...>
1) My youngest had a very hard time potty training (very resistant
until he decided to do it himself ... imagine that!), but finally
achieved success at school, but spotty success at home. He just
gets very "into" what he is doing and misses the bodily cues that he
needs to go. Anyway, since we have pulled them out of school (a few
weeks ago) he has decided that he just wants to wear a pull-up. Is
this ok? I feel that it is, but I guess I just need some reassurance.
-=-=-=-
It's OK. Feel reassured? <g>
I've told the story here about how *I* get too involved in what I'm
doing in the garden, so I "drop trou" in my yard and pee right *there*.
And I'm 47. <G>
Maybe I should look into Depends. <G>
Seriously---he's only four. If he's comfortable in something so simple,
what's the problem? I promis he won't go to college in pull-ups. <g>
-=-=-=-=-=-
2) I enjoy letting the boys stay up later than they used to. I
feel that it is really great family time, since they get to spend
more time with their dad when he gets home from work. However, my
husband feels that we are losing our husband/wife time and that life
is getting too focused on the boys, to the detriment of our
marriage. Has anyone experienced these feelings with their spouse?
What have you done?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Get up early. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: jamieminnis <jamieminnis@...>
1) My youngest had a very hard time potty training (very resistant
until he decided to do it himself ... imagine that!), but finally
achieved success at school, but spotty success at home. He just
gets very "into" what he is doing and misses the bodily cues that he
needs to go. Anyway, since we have pulled them out of school (a few
weeks ago) he has decided that he just wants to wear a pull-up. Is
this ok? I feel that it is, but I guess I just need some reassurance.
-=-=-=-
It's OK. Feel reassured? <g>
I've told the story here about how *I* get too involved in what I'm
doing in the garden, so I "drop trou" in my yard and pee right *there*.
And I'm 47. <G>
Maybe I should look into Depends. <G>
Seriously---he's only four. If he's comfortable in something so simple,
what's the problem? I promis he won't go to college in pull-ups. <g>
-=-=-=-=-=-
2) I enjoy letting the boys stay up later than they used to. I
feel that it is really great family time, since they get to spend
more time with their dad when he gets home from work. However, my
husband feels that we are losing our husband/wife time and that life
is getting too focused on the boys, to the detriment of our
marriage. Has anyone experienced these feelings with their spouse?
What have you done?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Get up early. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@...>
My son was almost 4 when he decided he wanted to wear underwear instead
of
pullups. We handed him a bottle of upholstery cleaner and a rag and
taught
him how to clean up after himself in case he had an accident. He
thought it
was cool. But about a week, and several accidents later, he decided
that
cleaning up after himself was too much trouble and he never had an
accident
again.
Was that coersive? I would say not. It was just showing him that
decisions
have consequences and that we must adapt.
-=-=-=-=
I hope you can look back in a few months and see that it *is* coercive.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@...>
My son was almost 4 when he decided he wanted to wear underwear instead
of
pullups. We handed him a bottle of upholstery cleaner and a rag and
taught
him how to clean up after himself in case he had an accident. He
thought it
was cool. But about a week, and several accidents later, he decided
that
cleaning up after himself was too much trouble and he never had an
accident
again.
Was that coersive? I would say not. It was just showing him that
decisions
have consequences and that we must adapt.
-=-=-=-=
I hope you can look back in a few months and see that it *is* coercive.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@...>
I guess you guys missed the part about my cleaning up the pee. And,
yes, I
am saying that he had a choice. Using the potty was his idea. Wearing
underwear was his idea. He was and had been using the potty regularly
for
some time, knew the cues and acted on them.
-=-=-=-
Obviously not.
-==-=-=-
But, he would also just pee and
poop in his Pullup because he felt like it or because he didn't want to
leave the show he was watching. (We noticed that this happened most
often
in front of the TV).
-=-=-=-
Tivo.
-=-=-=-=-
So, when he changed to underwear, I knew he was perfectly capable of not
peeing and pooping in his underwear. I also figured that he would not
necessarily alter his behavior just because he was in underwear. So, I
gave
him the tools to take care of the issue until he decided not to pee on
the
sofa.
-=-=-=-=-
So...he was deciding to purposefully pee on the sofa?
-==-=-=-=-
The problem I'm having is that for all but the smallest children,
everything
is a choice. In this case, I knew that my son was making a choice.
One of
the consequences of that choice was that it caused discomfort and
difficulties for the other members of the family. Since we live in a
family unit, we encourage our kids to be sensitive to other members of
the
family.
-=-=-=-=-
Unless he's three and peeing on the sofa?
-=-=-=-=-
I see big difference between a child who chooses to pee on the sofa
rather
than walk to the bathroom, and a child who accidently spills his milk.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Because the first one did it on purpose?
-=-=-=-
If I spilled a jar of spaghetti sauce on the floor, I'd appreciate the
help,
but I wouldn't expect anyone to help me clean it up. If my husband
peed on
the sofa I'd expect him to clean it up, too. If my roommate peed on the
sofa, I'd expect him to clean it up. I don't understand why unschooling
philosophy would expect it to work any differently with my children.
-=-=-=-=-
I don't understand why "accidentally" seems so much like "on purpose"
to you.
The deal is: they're CHILDREN. They're still learning. Their bodies are
still developing.
If he's peeing on the sofa on purpose, that's different than being
under-developed.
He *still* needs your help either way. Not to clean up, but to keep the
sofa dry in the first place.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: Carron Armstrong <carronna@...>
I guess you guys missed the part about my cleaning up the pee. And,
yes, I
am saying that he had a choice. Using the potty was his idea. Wearing
underwear was his idea. He was and had been using the potty regularly
for
some time, knew the cues and acted on them.
-=-=-=-
Obviously not.
-==-=-=-
But, he would also just pee and
poop in his Pullup because he felt like it or because he didn't want to
leave the show he was watching. (We noticed that this happened most
often
in front of the TV).
-=-=-=-
Tivo.
-=-=-=-=-
So, when he changed to underwear, I knew he was perfectly capable of not
peeing and pooping in his underwear. I also figured that he would not
necessarily alter his behavior just because he was in underwear. So, I
gave
him the tools to take care of the issue until he decided not to pee on
the
sofa.
-=-=-=-=-
So...he was deciding to purposefully pee on the sofa?
-==-=-=-=-
The problem I'm having is that for all but the smallest children,
everything
is a choice. In this case, I knew that my son was making a choice.
One of
the consequences of that choice was that it caused discomfort and
difficulties for the other members of the family. Since we live in a
family unit, we encourage our kids to be sensitive to other members of
the
family.
-=-=-=-=-
Unless he's three and peeing on the sofa?
-=-=-=-=-
I see big difference between a child who chooses to pee on the sofa
rather
than walk to the bathroom, and a child who accidently spills his milk.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Because the first one did it on purpose?
-=-=-=-
If I spilled a jar of spaghetti sauce on the floor, I'd appreciate the
help,
but I wouldn't expect anyone to help me clean it up. If my husband
peed on
the sofa I'd expect him to clean it up, too. If my roommate peed on the
sofa, I'd expect him to clean it up. I don't understand why unschooling
philosophy would expect it to work any differently with my children.
-=-=-=-=-
I don't understand why "accidentally" seems so much like "on purpose"
to you.
The deal is: they're CHILDREN. They're still learning. Their bodies are
still developing.
If he's peeing on the sofa on purpose, that's different than being
under-developed.
He *still* needs your help either way. Not to clean up, but to keep the
sofa dry in the first place.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org