Kim Musolff

He
will occasionally say "blah, blah, blah." when he doesn't want to hear
what we have to say, including "stop hitting". I feel like I try to
reason with him until he becomes unreasonable.

I'm also having this problem, with my 6 yr. old. I am still trying to
decide if not using punishment is working for us. (Just heard about it
recently!) Right now I'm trying to draw the line between respectfully
discussing the problem and lecturing. I feel like he lets me know when it's
turned into a lecture when he plugs his ears and refuses to discuss. But at
this point, I don't know what to do!

Kim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jodi Bezzola

Regarding punishment, I have two things to share that have made an impact on me:

First is that when kids *feel* better, they *do* better. Honestly, we can't expect our children to *feel* worse and *do* better!!!

Second is looking at the long term. Most parents would never say their long term goal for their child is to be fearful and compliant, and yet that's what punishment creates. That and loss of trust between you and your child. I like what Alfie Kohn says (Unconditional Parenting), that parents may think they are 'teaching them a lesson' when in fact the child is experiencing withdrawal of love and loss of trust - *huge*!!!

I have to say that I was very proud of myself this morning when I opened the bathroom door to my 3 year old twin girls sitting on the floor surrounded by reams and reams of unrolled toilet paper. They were pretending to be gerbils making a nest, and they were full of joy. Yay, that I didn't squash the joy! And slightly-obsessive, clean-up-the-mess-now me, even left the paper there for them to play with later :).

Jodi




---------------------------------
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keetry

--- In [email protected], Jodi Bezzola
<jodibezzola@...> wrote:
>
> Regarding punishment, I have two things to share that have made an
impact on me:
>
> First is that when kids *feel* better, they *do* better.
Honestly, we can't expect our children to *feel* worse and *do*
better!!!
>
> Second is looking at the long term. Most parents would never
say their long term goal for their child is to be fearful and
compliant, and yet that's what punishment creates. That and loss of
trust between you and your child. I like what Alfie Kohn says
(Unconditional Parenting), that parents may think they are 'teaching
them a lesson' when in fact the child is experiencing withdrawal of
love and loss of trust - *huge*!!!
>
> Jodi
>
This made perfect sense to me when I read the book, too. How do you
handle when people read that and disagree? For example, my husband
was raised with punishment. When I ask him he says he never felt
unloved or fearful of withdrawal of love from his parents. He was
fearful of his dad's wrath but thinks that was part of a healthy
respect for his dad. My dad punished me and I was fearful of him. I
thought that was a bad thing then and now. However, I have always
respected and loved him more than my mother, who never punished me
but also didn't really pay any attention to me one way or the other.
My dad has always been the one person in my life I knew I could
always trust and count on in spite of being spanked by him on a
regular basis.

Alysia

Pamela Sorooshian

How do you like it when someone criticizes you (respectfully
discusses) for doing something that you already regret and know you
shouldn't have done?

Maybe you stay on the computer too long, reading email lists, and
suddenly you realize that you've run out of time to do something you
said you'd do for your husband. You feel bad about it. You know you
should keep your word.

He walks in the door and starts "discussing" it with you, trying to
get across to you that it is important that you do what you say you'll
do. You say you know that, but time just got away from you. He starts
reiterating his points about how important it is and asks, "Well, do
you realize now that you need to pay more attention to what you're
doing so this won't happen again?"

Don't you feel insulted? Don't you wish he'd just shut up about it?

Don't tell kids things they already know. It is insulting. Remember
that they (like all of us) know things that they may not always
exemplify. They're LEARNING - they're are working on it. It is their
life - let them work on it some without feeling like they're always
being watched and corrected.

Stop before you talk. Ask yourself, "Am I about to tell him something
new?" If not, don't say it. Either he's not ready to understand it or
he already knows it. Either way, repeating yourself is truly worse
than useless, it makes it less and less likely your child will listen
to your advice as he/she gets older.

I have a 23 yo who openly says to me and others that she is SO lucky
to have a mom who gives such great advice and how I'm the first person
she goes to for advice, etc. If she only KNEW how often I didn't give
in to temptation to try to "respectfully discuss" something.

I put that in quotes because it really can't be considered respectful
discussion unless both parties are wanting to engage in it.

-pam

On Mar 25, 2008, at 2:20 AM, Kim Musolff wrote:

> I'm also having this problem, with my 6 yr. old. I am still trying to
> decide if not using punishment is working for us. (Just heard about it
> recently!) Right now I'm trying to draw the line between respectfully
> discussing the problem and lecturing. I feel like he lets me know
> when it's
> turned into a lecture when he plugs his ears and refuses to discuss.
> But at
> this point, I don't know what to do!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
wrote:

> Don't tell kids things they already know. It is insulting. Remember
> that they (like all of us) know things that they may not always
> exemplify. They're LEARNING - they're are working on it. It is their
> life - let them work on it some without feeling like they're always
> being watched and corrected.
>
> Stop before you talk. Ask yourself, "Am I about to tell him something
> new?" If not, don't say it. Either he's not ready to understand it or
> he already knows it. Either way, repeating yourself is truly worse
> than useless, it makes it less and less likely your child will listen
> to your advice as he/she gets older.
>
>
>


I think it's a gift when your loved one (a kid) lets you know when you're
turning into Charlie Brown's Teacher (an old cartoon where the teacher's
voice was represented by a "mwah, mwah, mwah" sound) -- my friends aren't
often this informative with me :D (I tend to miss the cues)
I like to bring up situations to discuss when we're doing something totally
unrelated (i.e. driving- We love talking in the car!! or while baking some
goodies -- hard to get crabby when surrounded by delicious scents!), when
we're in the midst of calm and happy. Hayden (9.5) is lately receptive to
some guided imagery with me - we were headed out to a Bender Party (Yay
Futurama's back!!!) where he'd be the only kid. I asked if he was gonna have
a good time, he said, I think so, I asked, Can you see yourself having a
good time? He closed his eyes, took a deep breath, smiled and said YEAH! --
and he did :)
It's imperative to remember "Don't take it
personally<http://www.miguelruiz.com/fouragreements.html>"
in the moment (and in every moment for that matter ::bg::) -- he's sharing
*his* experience, it doesn't have to look anything like your experience...
If what your child is reflecting back at you is not what you're intending to
show them, change what you're showing them!
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


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Mamachaos

I have used punishment and withdrawal of privileges for years. I have stopped doing all of these things, but I too have the need for the kids to go along with the day, without constant argument and negotiations. I have 3 boys, 5,8 &13. I see my mirror image in my 13 year old who I have to remind not to scold the kids, not to worry that they are being noisy, not to threaten them with loss of something. YUCK! I hate that I have taught him these behaviors. I am hoping that my being steady and reliably open, supportive etc--not reverting back to old ways, that I will create NEW patterns for him too. I wonder if there will be a shift within them in the next year or so, where maybe their need to argue and constantly negotiate the plans changes a bit Maybe if they feel more validated and can trust me more, they won't have that need to butt heads.

I am still learning new ways of dealing with negative behavior that they have, and trying to really breath thru those times when I feel frustrated and at a loss. I tend to just try and hug them and kiss them and remind them how much I love them....seems like a pretty big shift happens then. And saying yes as often as possible feels pretty good. I will admit it feels like I am sneaking twinkies out of the house though...that ugly voice that asks me "Is that ok to just play paintball all day? Shouldn't he be DOING something educational?" Formal education is truly so indoctrinated in my being, that I have to have these little conversations with myself all day long. Like a mother and child arguing together. I hope that part of the path goes away, but I am an overthinker, so I wonder....

Kelley

http://sandandstardust.blogspot.com/

"Childhood is a journey, not a race."

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Jodi Bezzola

~~For example, my husband was raised with punishment. When I ask him he says he never felt unloved or fearful of withdrawal of love from his parents. He was
fearful of his dad's wrath but thinks that was part of a healthy
respect for his dad. My dad punished me and I was fearful of him. I
thought that was a bad thing then and now. However, I have always
respected and loved him more than my mother, who never punished me
but also didn't really pay any attention to me one way or the other.
My dad has always been the one person in my life I knew I could
always trust and count on in spite of being spanked by him on a
regular basis.~~

Yah, pretty mixed feelings on this end too about what went on when I was a child. My dad spanked me regularly too, and now I have huge trust and respect for him - but after working through all the anger and grieving about the choices he made back then. My husband still thinks his childhood was 'fine'. He's just starting to see that his dad tried to shut down every emotion dh ever had. My FIL tries to pull it now with my girls and boy, does he get shut down fast by me the momma bear!

For dh, I really see that to come to an awareness of how it really was and how it really felt for him as a little kid to be shut down all the time would be hugely painful, and not something he's quickly jumping into with both feet. That's why I think most people mainstream parent, because to do otherwise takes a lot of introspection and growing and moving through pain - at least that's what embracing RU has looked like for me.

Just my thoughts :).

Jodi




---------------------------------
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Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 25, 2008, at 4:37 PM, keetry wrote:

> For example, my husband
> was raised with punishment. When I ask him he says he never felt
> unloved or fearful of withdrawal of love from his parents.

As was suggested, he's probably walled off a lot of hurt. People do
that for self protection. But, no matter.

While some kids come out fine with punishment, way more are damaged.
While some kids come out fine from the ghetto, does that mean the
ghetto is the way to give a child the best chance of growing up whole
and healthy?

No kids are damaged by respect. No kids are damaged by trust. No kids
are damaged by being treated like whole people who are doing their
best. No kids are damaged by having a relationship of trust with
their parents.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 25, 2008, at 5:20 AM, Kim Musolff wrote:

> Right now I'm trying to draw the line between respectfully
> discussing the problem and lecturing. I feel like he lets me know
> when it's
> turned into a lecture when he plugs his ears and refuses to
> discuss. But at
> this point, I don't know what to do!

I suspect you're assuming when he does something he shouldn't that
either 1) he doesn't understand or 2) he's disobeying.

It will help your relationship greatly to not assume either. Assume
he understands but still needs help. Anticipate problems and redirect
or whatever's appropriate to the situation. *Help* him. Be his partner.

If he's deliberately ignoring you, then it's something he really
wants and you need to figure out a way he can have that or something
that is just as good.

Always treat them as though they're doing the best they can with the
knowledge and skills and development they have. If you treat them
like they're doing the best they can, they'll do better naturally. It
may not come on your schedule but they will grow and change in
healthy ways because you trust that they're capable.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keetry

--- In [email protected], Jodi Bezzola
<jodibezzola@...> wrote:
>
For dh, I really see that to come to an awareness of how it really
was and how it really felt for him as a little kid to be shut down
all the time would be hugely painful, and not something he's quickly
jumping into with both feet. That's why I think most people
mainstream parent, because to do otherwise takes a lot of
introspection and growing and moving through pain - at least that's
what embracing RU has looked like for me.
>
> Just my thoughts :).
>
> Jodi

I've been told this over and over and it's so hard for me to get. I
tend to question everything and face things head on. I don't
understand why anyone would just go along because that's what has
always been done and that's what everyone else does, which is the
type of thing my dh says. We have virtually no contact with his
parents now so we don't see how things would be between them and our
children. I wonder if that would make my dh stop and think. I doubt
that will ever happen now, though.

Alysia

keetry

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 25, 2008, at 4:37 PM, keetry wrote:
>
> > For example, my husband
> > was raised with punishment. When I ask him he says he never felt
> > unloved or fearful of withdrawal of love from his parents.
>
> As was suggested, he's probably walled off a lot of hurt. People
do
> that for self protection. But, no matter.
>
> While some kids come out fine with punishment, way more are
damaged.
> While some kids come out fine from the ghetto, does that mean the
> ghetto is the way to give a child the best chance of growing up
whole
> and healthy?
>
> No kids are damaged by respect. No kids are damaged by trust. No
kids
> are damaged by being treated like whole people who are doing
their
> best. No kids are damaged by having a relationship of trust with
> their parents.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Yes, I agree with this. When I went back and reread what I posted I
was afraid it would sound like I was saying that punishment and
spanking was ok since so many went through it and say they are fine
now. I do not believe that at all and that was not my intent. Just
wanted to make that clear.

I tell my husband those kinds of things. Why risk damage if you
don't have to? He doesn't get it because he sincerely can't see any
risk of damage, I guess.

Alysia

Heather

I find this to be curious.
You said...
<my husband was raised with punishment. When I ask him he says he never felt
unloved or fearful of withdrawal of love from his parents.>

And just now you said this...
<We have virtually no contact with his
parents now so we don't see how things would be between them and our
children.>

So I'm wondering why ya'll have no contact with dh's parents, if he felt so
loved growing up?

heather


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keetry

--- In [email protected], Heather <heather@...>
wrote:
>
> So I'm wondering why ya'll have no contact with dh's parents, if
he felt so
> loved growing up?
>
> heather
>


My in-laws lived in CT and we lived in VA when we first got married
so we weren't able to see them more than maybe twice a year. My MIL
died of cancer soon after we got married. Then we moved to HI and
lived there for 3 years and did not visit at all. My FIL got
remarried and he and his new wife came to visit us once. After we
came back to the continental US my FIL told us and his daughter and
her family that his new wife said she could not accept us (his
children) as part of their family and would not have anything to do
with us. He said that would not affect his relationship with us,
although I think it has. I don't see how it could not. We now live
in NC and FIL still lives in CT so we aren't close enough to see
each other often. We have not seen FIL or SIL and her family since
we first moved back here almost 2 years ago. My husband was deployed
for a year and I guess they didn't feel comfortable visiting us
without him here even though I invited them. I couldn't make the
long trip myself since I just had a baby in June. FIL was supposed
to come visit us two weeks ago but just got diagnosed with prostate
cancer and will be having surgery so I don't know when we'll see
him. So, lots of circumstances have just gotten in the way of us
seeing each other.

I, personally, could not understand how a man who says he loves his
kids and grandkids could stay married to someone who said she could
not accept his children and grandchildren as part of her family but
he did. He said he was happy with his marriage and would not ever
consider divorcing his wife. I think my husband is good at blaming
the new wife rather than looking at his father's part in it. I don't
know how my dh can still feel loved after that but he says he does.
*shrug*

Alysia

keetry

--- In [email protected], "keetry" <keetry@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], Heather <heather@>
> wrote:
> >
> > So I'm wondering why ya'll have no contact with dh's parents, if
> he felt so
> > loved growing up?
> >
> > heather
> >
>
>
> My in-laws lived in CT and we lived in VA when we first got
married
> so we weren't able to see them more than maybe twice a year. My
MIL
> died of cancer soon after we got married. Then we moved to HI and
> lived there for 3 years and did not visit at all. My FIL got
> remarried and he and his new wife came to visit us once. After we
> came back to the continental US my FIL told us and his daughter
and
> her family that his new wife said she could not accept us (his
> children) as part of their family and would not have anything to
do
> with us. He said that would not affect his relationship with us,
> although I think it has. I don't see how it could not. We now live
> in NC and FIL still lives in CT so we aren't close enough to see
> each other often. We have not seen FIL or SIL and her family since
> we first moved back here almost 2 years ago. My husband was
deployed
> for a year and I guess they didn't feel comfortable visiting us
> without him here even though I invited them. I couldn't make the
> long trip myself since I just had a baby in June. FIL was supposed
> to come visit us two weeks ago but just got diagnosed with
prostate
> cancer and will be having surgery so I don't know when we'll see
> him. So, lots of circumstances have just gotten in the way of us
> seeing each other.
>
> I, personally, could not understand how a man who says he loves
his
> kids and grandkids could stay married to someone who said she
could
> not accept his children and grandchildren as part of her family
but
> he did. He said he was happy with his marriage and would not ever
> consider divorcing his wife. I think my husband is good at blaming
> the new wife rather than looking at his father's part in it. I
don't
> know how my dh can still feel loved after that but he says he
does.
> *shrug*
>
> Alysia
>

Sorry for answering myself but I thought of some things I left out.
I am learning not to project onto my husband what I think he
*should* feel. I could tell how I think he should feel and what I
think that means in terms of his relationship with his parents but
that would just be supposition. I wasn't there. I'm not in his head.
I only know what he tells me and I have to take that as his truth.

Alysia