Feeling unrespected
John Buxcel
Hello all I am not sure what I am really feeling from my kids right now but
I have been out of town for three days and I think I must have thought the
break would create a new out look when I returned but I still have feelings
of discontent. I just can't seem to shake the thought that I am always
picking up after my kids and when I don't it will stay for weeks or longer,
possibly be broken or lost or destroyed. It drives me crazy. Mostly I think
of how much it might cost or just how many times I have picked it up. Of
course it's great when they lose something and they freak out. But we seem
to keep buying more stuff and it continually is discarded.
I have predicted what will be the response to this so let me have it.
My boys are 9, 6, and 3
Yes some of my problem is probably a result of the past when I seem to have
always been the one picking up after my two brothers and yes I am the middle
child. It used to upset me that they "my brothers" and my Dad were such pigs
because my Mom always worked so hard to keep the house neat and clean along
with get this, working as a house keeper and maid at a motel. One more bitch
about my brothers they notoriously destroyed my stuff.
I don't want to resent my boys I want to be the cool laid back person that I
"thought" I used to be. I also want my boys not to think of me as a
dictating tyrant.
So do I learn to walk over the mess or happily pick it up and if it is
destroyed stop buying more cause frankly it is starting to cost a lot.
Loving Father
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have been out of town for three days and I think I must have thought the
break would create a new out look when I returned but I still have feelings
of discontent. I just can't seem to shake the thought that I am always
picking up after my kids and when I don't it will stay for weeks or longer,
possibly be broken or lost or destroyed. It drives me crazy. Mostly I think
of how much it might cost or just how many times I have picked it up. Of
course it's great when they lose something and they freak out. But we seem
to keep buying more stuff and it continually is discarded.
I have predicted what will be the response to this so let me have it.
My boys are 9, 6, and 3
Yes some of my problem is probably a result of the past when I seem to have
always been the one picking up after my two brothers and yes I am the middle
child. It used to upset me that they "my brothers" and my Dad were such pigs
because my Mom always worked so hard to keep the house neat and clean along
with get this, working as a house keeper and maid at a motel. One more bitch
about my brothers they notoriously destroyed my stuff.
I don't want to resent my boys I want to be the cool laid back person that I
"thought" I used to be. I also want my boys not to think of me as a
dictating tyrant.
So do I learn to walk over the mess or happily pick it up and if it is
destroyed stop buying more cause frankly it is starting to cost a lot.
Loving Father
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 3:42 PM, John Buxcel <johnbuxcel@...> wrote:
you're welcome to think of me as a raving lunatic *stranger* ;) I won't take
a rejection of my advice personally, I promise :D
are not YOU. There's a very different vibe to the home you create/d with
your family than the one of your origin, thereby creating different
relationships and levels of respect. You're not doing the same things, you
won't get the same result :D
mind.
As a clutter-bug myself ::bg:: I spent lots of time not minding the mess...
then I realized we were buying duplicates and triplicates of stuff or, too,
things were lost or broken. AND we entered relationship with someone who is
used to a very clean, nobody else's messes, kind of living space.
When things are sacred and are left in a dangerous place (as in, easily lost
or broken) I *rescue* those things and be SURE to note where they are so
they can be used instantly when their need again arises (Hayden has a
skateboard taken apart in the living room. I moved the nuts & bolts from the
ottoman and put them in a tupperware and stash the deck next to the couch
when he's not actively using it. He put on and took off the trucks again
today, just because, and all the parts were right there, accessible, even if
not *exactly* where he left them.). We talk about the hemp (which he loves
access to and we find it unravels as it rolls 'round the room, collecting
every hair and fuzz thing in it's path) and we now have a bag for it that
can be left laying *wherever* without the same consequence. When H needs a
big messy project, we find the *least disturbing to scotty* way we can do it
& still have the same intense fun :) It just makes him feel better if I
remove the piles & take a sponge to the very sticky end table a couple of
times a week ;) I regularly come into the office and put the games and dvds
back into their cases (or onto somewhere safe until I find the case ::g::)
It's a gift I give to my kid, myself and SCB.
*And* you know in your heart what an incredible honor it is to have those
kids to pick up after. What an honor it is to give your kids a father who
loves them so much, he is happy to *do* for them and with them.
(if for no other reason than to give them the chance to have a life where
they do *not* feel what you feel right now)
Your boys want to be with you, the *happy* you... make FUN out of whatever
you are doing and you KNOW you'll have joyful company. and it'll be loud :D
Loving Father
BIG HUGS :)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I have predicted what will be the response to this so let me have it.Hiya Friend! You can either pretend we're on the deck having a beer or
>
you're welcome to think of me as a raving lunatic *stranger* ;) I won't take
a rejection of my advice personally, I promise :D
> Yes some of my problem is probably a result of the past when I seem toAs much as your boys are *like* you (and there's no denying they ARE) they
> have
> always been the one picking up after my two brothers and yes I am the
> middle
> child.
>
are not YOU. There's a very different vibe to the home you create/d with
your family than the one of your origin, thereby creating different
relationships and levels of respect. You're not doing the same things, you
won't get the same result :D
> I don't want to resent my boys I want to be the cool laid back person thatPlease bring him back!!! I'm sure the whole family misses him :D
> I
> "thought" I used to be.
>
> So do I learn to walk over the mess or happily pick it up and if it isThis issue is toughest when money is tightest. Just something to keep in
> destroyed stop buying more cause frankly it is starting to cost a lot.
>
mind.
As a clutter-bug myself ::bg:: I spent lots of time not minding the mess...
then I realized we were buying duplicates and triplicates of stuff or, too,
things were lost or broken. AND we entered relationship with someone who is
used to a very clean, nobody else's messes, kind of living space.
When things are sacred and are left in a dangerous place (as in, easily lost
or broken) I *rescue* those things and be SURE to note where they are so
they can be used instantly when their need again arises (Hayden has a
skateboard taken apart in the living room. I moved the nuts & bolts from the
ottoman and put them in a tupperware and stash the deck next to the couch
when he's not actively using it. He put on and took off the trucks again
today, just because, and all the parts were right there, accessible, even if
not *exactly* where he left them.). We talk about the hemp (which he loves
access to and we find it unravels as it rolls 'round the room, collecting
every hair and fuzz thing in it's path) and we now have a bag for it that
can be left laying *wherever* without the same consequence. When H needs a
big messy project, we find the *least disturbing to scotty* way we can do it
& still have the same intense fun :) It just makes him feel better if I
remove the piles & take a sponge to the very sticky end table a couple of
times a week ;) I regularly come into the office and put the games and dvds
back into their cases (or onto somewhere safe until I find the case ::g::)
It's a gift I give to my kid, myself and SCB.
*And* you know in your heart what an incredible honor it is to have those
kids to pick up after. What an honor it is to give your kids a father who
loves them so much, he is happy to *do* for them and with them.
(if for no other reason than to give them the chance to have a life where
they do *not* feel what you feel right now)
Your boys want to be with you, the *happy* you... make FUN out of whatever
you are doing and you KNOW you'll have joyful company. and it'll be loud :D
Loving Father
>Yes you are, always remember that!!
>
>
BIG HUGS :)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 20, 2008, at 7:42 PM, John Buxcel wrote:
a tyrant with cleaning, they will want to avoid cleaning.
Invite them to help you. Retain possession of the task. You're asking
for help. And since you're asking, they can say, "No, thanks."
"Hey, this is bothering me. Do you mind giving me a few minutes of
your help?"
"Let's do a quick clean up for 10 minutes." (And set a timer.)
Turn it into a game.
Get bins and throw towards the bins for points.
Do a pretend game as you round up the bad guys and get them in prison.
If you go here:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
there's a lot written about kids and cleaning and chores. Scroll down
on the right.
them gain the skill? If you don't understand Spanish, will a punch in
the face help?
Clean up seems like an easy task. But it isn't. I watched my daughter
struggle with what seemed so little but truly overwhelmed her. She
didn't know where to start and didn't want me to tell her what to do ;-)
I can remember clearly one small bout with depression. I saw the mess
I needed to clean before Christmas and just looking at it overwhelmed
me. And I knew that's what she felt when she looked at a mess of toys
in the living room.
If I asked her to fold towels or match socks she'd groan as though I
asked her to run a marathon.
But once she reached puberty, 11ish or so, the tasks got easier for
her. And now at 16 willingly helps. (Okay, she still takes a lot of
breaks to sharpen pencils she finds, but she is capable and willing
to help me out :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I don't want to resent my boys I want to be the cool laid backIf you become a tyrant they will want to avoid you. If they associate
> person that I
> "thought" I used to be. I also want my boys not to think of me as a
> dictating tyrant.
a tyrant with cleaning, they will want to avoid cleaning.
> So do I learn to walk over the mess or happily pick it upHow about a third or fourth or more option?
Invite them to help you. Retain possession of the task. You're asking
for help. And since you're asking, they can say, "No, thanks."
"Hey, this is bothering me. Do you mind giving me a few minutes of
your help?"
"Let's do a quick clean up for 10 minutes." (And set a timer.)
Turn it into a game.
Get bins and throw towards the bins for points.
Do a pretend game as you round up the bad guys and get them in prison.
If you go here:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
there's a lot written about kids and cleaning and chores. Scroll down
on the right.
> and if it isIf it's a skill they don't have and are punished for it, does it help
> destroyed stop buying more cause frankly it is starting to cost a lot.
them gain the skill? If you don't understand Spanish, will a punch in
the face help?
Clean up seems like an easy task. But it isn't. I watched my daughter
struggle with what seemed so little but truly overwhelmed her. She
didn't know where to start and didn't want me to tell her what to do ;-)
I can remember clearly one small bout with depression. I saw the mess
I needed to clean before Christmas and just looking at it overwhelmed
me. And I knew that's what she felt when she looked at a mess of toys
in the living room.
If I asked her to fold towels or match socks she'd groan as though I
asked her to run a marathon.
But once she reached puberty, 11ish or so, the tasks got easier for
her. And now at 16 willingly helps. (Okay, she still takes a lot of
breaks to sharpen pencils she finds, but she is capable and willing
to help me out :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
carnationsgalore
What kinds of messes are we talking about? We might be able to help
you look at things from a different point of view.
Toys can be tossed into baskets/bins/boxes, one in each room if
necessary. Video games and movies can be on a special accessible
shelf. Dirty clothes can be laundry basket(ball), tossing them from
across the room into the basket. Dirty dishes can be rounded up
within one minute if all hands help. Shoes left all over can go
into a shoe shelf box/bin/basket (another fun basketball type
game).
If I'm trying to clean a whole room, I ask for help. My kids are
always happy to do fun things like vacuum, dust, spray and wipe the
windows. I've never come behind them to tell them to do it better
or differently. They always do the best job they can. As they've
gotten older, they've naturally picked up more skills. To be
honest, we're not neat freaks but all of us at one time or another
have announced that a room is just too messy and call for help to
clean it up. :)
Beth M.
you look at things from a different point of view.
Toys can be tossed into baskets/bins/boxes, one in each room if
necessary. Video games and movies can be on a special accessible
shelf. Dirty clothes can be laundry basket(ball), tossing them from
across the room into the basket. Dirty dishes can be rounded up
within one minute if all hands help. Shoes left all over can go
into a shoe shelf box/bin/basket (another fun basketball type
game).
If I'm trying to clean a whole room, I ask for help. My kids are
always happy to do fun things like vacuum, dust, spray and wipe the
windows. I've never come behind them to tell them to do it better
or differently. They always do the best job they can. As they've
gotten older, they've naturally picked up more skills. To be
honest, we're not neat freaks but all of us at one time or another
have announced that a room is just too messy and call for help to
clean it up. :)
Beth M.
Ariana Zora Ziminsky
Hi,
I know where you are coming from.. I try not to take it personally when my
boys (ages 5 and 2 and a half) leave toys all over the place -- after all, I
LOVE and encourage their creativity, etc. - but it does feel like an insult
to me and my hard work! However, I realize that's my issue, not there
intent.
Nevertheless, there comes a time and a place when things have to get cleaned
up. So, to that end, being a "reformed clutterer" myself who married a tidy
guy, my plan of attack is something like this:
a) Have a home for each toy. A bin, a basket, a shelf. (You might want to
just figure this out on your own one day if you are the one "in charge" of
the cleaning up.)
b) Let the kids see where the home for everything is.
c) When things get messy, point out what needs to be cleaned up, and how,
and set a timer. I say to my 5-year-old: "Your cars need to go in this
basked; your street pieces go in this bin; these books go in the shelf over
there - now, Go! Timer's running!"
d) The last part of this is that, before we get started, I bring in a big
tupperware bin, and I say, whatever isn't cleaned up when the timer beeps
needs to go into this bin and will get stored in the attic. Why? Not as a
punishement, but simply because we need to neaten up the house. That's all.
(Usually this all happens shortly before guests come over! ) What has ended
up happening is that things get cleaned up before the timer beeps, whatever
they don't need gets put into the bin (my boys decide themselves what to
store away!), and nobody has yelled or screamed or been brought to tears or
disrespected. The attic toys sit out of sight and out of mind and get
forgotten about; some I just toss or give away eventually; others return
downstairs after a hiatus; others the kids decide what should stay and what
should go. I couldn't just say "Anything that is not cleaned up by the time
the timer beeps will get tossed in the trash!" because that just seems
disrespectful to me.
I'm hoping in future years this evolves into they clean up by themselves,
and stuff that goes in the Tupperware bin can be sent off to Goodwill etc.
Throughout this, my younger son helps out by imitating what my older son
does.
During this time, I do "mommy's housework" - put dishes away, etc. -- that
they aren't old enough to do yet.
Hope this helps,
- Ariana
I know where you are coming from.. I try not to take it personally when my
boys (ages 5 and 2 and a half) leave toys all over the place -- after all, I
LOVE and encourage their creativity, etc. - but it does feel like an insult
to me and my hard work! However, I realize that's my issue, not there
intent.
Nevertheless, there comes a time and a place when things have to get cleaned
up. So, to that end, being a "reformed clutterer" myself who married a tidy
guy, my plan of attack is something like this:
a) Have a home for each toy. A bin, a basket, a shelf. (You might want to
just figure this out on your own one day if you are the one "in charge" of
the cleaning up.)
b) Let the kids see where the home for everything is.
c) When things get messy, point out what needs to be cleaned up, and how,
and set a timer. I say to my 5-year-old: "Your cars need to go in this
basked; your street pieces go in this bin; these books go in the shelf over
there - now, Go! Timer's running!"
d) The last part of this is that, before we get started, I bring in a big
tupperware bin, and I say, whatever isn't cleaned up when the timer beeps
needs to go into this bin and will get stored in the attic. Why? Not as a
punishement, but simply because we need to neaten up the house. That's all.
(Usually this all happens shortly before guests come over! ) What has ended
up happening is that things get cleaned up before the timer beeps, whatever
they don't need gets put into the bin (my boys decide themselves what to
store away!), and nobody has yelled or screamed or been brought to tears or
disrespected. The attic toys sit out of sight and out of mind and get
forgotten about; some I just toss or give away eventually; others return
downstairs after a hiatus; others the kids decide what should stay and what
should go. I couldn't just say "Anything that is not cleaned up by the time
the timer beeps will get tossed in the trash!" because that just seems
disrespectful to me.
I'm hoping in future years this evolves into they clean up by themselves,
and stuff that goes in the Tupperware bin can be sent off to Goodwill etc.
Throughout this, my younger son helps out by imitating what my older son
does.
During this time, I do "mommy's housework" - put dishes away, etc. -- that
they aren't old enough to do yet.
Hope this helps,
- Ariana
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Buxcel" <johnbuxcel@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 7:42 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling unrespected
> Hello all I am not sure what I am really feeling from my kids right now
> but
> I have been out of town for three days and I think I must have thought the
> break would create a new out look when I returned but I still have
> feelings
> of discontent. I just can't seem to shake the thought that I am always
> picking up after my kids and when I don't it will stay for weeks or
> longer,
> possibly be broken or lost or destroyed. It drives me crazy. Mostly I
> think
> of how much it might cost or just how many times I have picked it up. Of
> course it's great when they lose something and they freak out. But we seem
> to keep buying more stuff and it continually is discarded.
>
> I have predicted what will be the response to this so let me have it.
>
> My boys are 9, 6, and 3
>
> Yes some of my problem is probably a result of the past when I seem to
> have
> always been the one picking up after my two brothers and yes I am the
> middle
> child. It used to upset me that they "my brothers" and my Dad were such
> pigs
> because my Mom always worked so hard to keep the house neat and clean
> along
> with get this, working as a house keeper and maid at a motel. One more
> bitch
> about my brothers they notoriously destroyed my stuff.
>
> I don't want to resent my boys I want to be the cool laid back person that
> I
> "thought" I used to be. I also want my boys not to think of me as a
> dictating tyrant.
> So do I learn to walk over the mess or happily pick it up and if it is
> destroyed stop buying more cause frankly it is starting to cost a lot.
>
> Loving Father
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Michelle Thedaker
For me, I try to remember that cleaning up a big mess (or even what seems to
me to be a not-so-big mess) can be terribly overwhelming. We just moved to
another home this past Friday, and I have boxes *everywhere* right now. I
know in a *logical* sense that it will not be a big job to slowly go, room
by room, and put the contents of the boxes where they belong. But I find
myself completely ignoring the boxes and doing other things - it's much too
*emotionally* overwhelming.
I usually tidy up after my boys (ages 8.5 and 4.5) without comment, knowing
that I do it because *I* want it cleaned up, it makes *me* feel good. But
if I would like their help, or if they are wanting to clean a space (usually
because they want to put on a show or build a special project there), I
always help them tackle the job step by step. "Here, let's first do all the
train tracks, and they go in this box." Then once the train tracks are
finished, we move on to cars, or Legos, etc. But I am with them throughout
the steps, breaking it down with them in little snippets of cleaning. Yes,
this takes longer than just saying "Okay everybody clean up!". But it
results in no tears, a great connection between us, and a very empowering
feeling for the boys that they accomplished this huge job without feeling
icky about it. I figure that eventually (and by that I mean by adulthood!)
they will be able to tackle large projects (of any kind!) using these same
techniques.
Shell & Da Boys
Drew, 8.5 and Josh, 4.5
www.thedaker.blogspot.com
"If you are lucky enough to find a way of life you
love, you have to find the courage to live it." John Irving
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
me to be a not-so-big mess) can be terribly overwhelming. We just moved to
another home this past Friday, and I have boxes *everywhere* right now. I
know in a *logical* sense that it will not be a big job to slowly go, room
by room, and put the contents of the boxes where they belong. But I find
myself completely ignoring the boxes and doing other things - it's much too
*emotionally* overwhelming.
I usually tidy up after my boys (ages 8.5 and 4.5) without comment, knowing
that I do it because *I* want it cleaned up, it makes *me* feel good. But
if I would like their help, or if they are wanting to clean a space (usually
because they want to put on a show or build a special project there), I
always help them tackle the job step by step. "Here, let's first do all the
train tracks, and they go in this box." Then once the train tracks are
finished, we move on to cars, or Legos, etc. But I am with them throughout
the steps, breaking it down with them in little snippets of cleaning. Yes,
this takes longer than just saying "Okay everybody clean up!". But it
results in no tears, a great connection between us, and a very empowering
feeling for the boys that they accomplished this huge job without feeling
icky about it. I figure that eventually (and by that I mean by adulthood!)
they will be able to tackle large projects (of any kind!) using these same
techniques.
Shell & Da Boys
Drew, 8.5 and Josh, 4.5
www.thedaker.blogspot.com
"If you are lucky enough to find a way of life you
love, you have to find the courage to live it." John Irving
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~She
didn't know where to start and didn't want me to tell her what to do ;-)~~
I'm still like this!
I do best when someone will work alongside me and if the mess is
overwhelming, give me steps. Dh is great at this with the really big
tasks...he ends up doing most of it but at least we're together and I
can do the less overwhelming parts. He THINKS in such an organized
manner. I don't.
I know that if I'm overwhelmed easily by big messes, my kids might be
also. The best thing my parents could have done back in the day is
just be WITH me, work alongside me instead of nag me. A task done in
partnership can be fun! It certainly doesn't build up the hostility
that expecations and nagging can.
My grandmother used to come over and help me organize. It was awesome
because I had an adult willing to just work with me and making jobs
less intimidating. I would LOVE to have her help some days! I want to
be the kind of adult that my kids know will be on their side. If
something is too messy and stressing me out, I am honest about that
but I don't expect someone else to fix the problem for me....they
often do want to be part of the solution though (but they're all
getting older too).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
didn't know where to start and didn't want me to tell her what to do ;-)~~
I'm still like this!
I do best when someone will work alongside me and if the mess is
overwhelming, give me steps. Dh is great at this with the really big
tasks...he ends up doing most of it but at least we're together and I
can do the less overwhelming parts. He THINKS in such an organized
manner. I don't.
I know that if I'm overwhelmed easily by big messes, my kids might be
also. The best thing my parents could have done back in the day is
just be WITH me, work alongside me instead of nag me. A task done in
partnership can be fun! It certainly doesn't build up the hostility
that expecations and nagging can.
My grandmother used to come over and help me organize. It was awesome
because I had an adult willing to just work with me and making jobs
less intimidating. I would LOVE to have her help some days! I want to
be the kind of adult that my kids know will be on their side. If
something is too messy and stressing me out, I am honest about that
but I don't expect someone else to fix the problem for me....they
often do want to be part of the solution though (but they're all
getting older too).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
brad jones
From one loving father to another.
You asked for it, so here it goes <BWG>
I have concluded that our children did not ask to be here, so they owe us no respect.
There is nothing magical about being a parent/child-owner that will <cause> a connection/bond between you and your child, if you want one, you'll have to implement/initiate it since many kids will be indifferent to a connection once they have determined that you have no interest in it either.
Your kids are not responsible for the actions of your dad or your brothers and have no control over your emotional baggage from that era of your life, the time has passed for that to have an effect on you other than being a distant memory.
What does your spouse think about this situation?
I have no problem advising my daughter that the toys she leaves in the walkway 1. will be a hazard to anyone walking thru when the lights are off, 2. will get broken when and if I step on them, and 3. she is the one who took them out so she is responsible for picking them back up. She doesn't like the putting them back up part but will do it when she finds out that she won't get computer privileges or some other (dare I say it here <BWG>) punishment if she doesn't.
You being angry at the cost is also not your children's dilemma to solve. I'm sure that there is some financial limit that prevents you from buying any and every toy that is made and in that sense you have decided what you can and can't buy. Since it is your decision, you are to blame. You have the power to change your habits.
You are the only person in the whole universe that can make you happy, laid-back, non-dictatorial, non-tyrannical.......
----- Original Message ----
From: John Buxcel <johnbuxcel@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 6:42:00 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling unrespected
Hello all I am not sure what I am really feeling from my kids right now but
I have been out of town for three days and I think I must have thought the
break would create a new out look when I returned but I still have feelings
of discontent. I just can't seem to shake the thought that I am always
picking up after my kids and when I don't it will stay for weeks or longer,
possibly be broken or lost or destroyed. It drives me crazy. Mostly I think
of how much it might cost or just how many times I have picked it up. Of
course it's great when they lose something and they freak out. But we seem
to keep buying more stuff and it continually is discarded.
I have predicted what will be the response to this so let me have it.
My boys are 9, 6, and 3
Yes some of my problem is probably a result of the past when I seem to have
always been the one picking up after my two brothers and yes I am the middle
child. It used to upset me that they "my brothers" and my Dad were such pigs
because my Mom always worked so hard to keep the house neat and clean along
with get this, working as a house keeper and maid at a motel. One more bitch
about my brothers they notoriously destroyed my stuff.
I don't want to resent my boys I want to be the cool laid back person that I
"thought" I used to be. I also want my boys not to think of me as a
dictating tyrant.
So do I learn to walk over the mess or happily pick it up and if it is
destroyed stop buying more cause frankly it is starting to cost a lot.
Loving Father
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You asked for it, so here it goes <BWG>
I have concluded that our children did not ask to be here, so they owe us no respect.
There is nothing magical about being a parent/child-owner that will <cause> a connection/bond between you and your child, if you want one, you'll have to implement/initiate it since many kids will be indifferent to a connection once they have determined that you have no interest in it either.
Your kids are not responsible for the actions of your dad or your brothers and have no control over your emotional baggage from that era of your life, the time has passed for that to have an effect on you other than being a distant memory.
What does your spouse think about this situation?
I have no problem advising my daughter that the toys she leaves in the walkway 1. will be a hazard to anyone walking thru when the lights are off, 2. will get broken when and if I step on them, and 3. she is the one who took them out so she is responsible for picking them back up. She doesn't like the putting them back up part but will do it when she finds out that she won't get computer privileges or some other (dare I say it here <BWG>) punishment if she doesn't.
You being angry at the cost is also not your children's dilemma to solve. I'm sure that there is some financial limit that prevents you from buying any and every toy that is made and in that sense you have decided what you can and can't buy. Since it is your decision, you are to blame. You have the power to change your habits.
You are the only person in the whole universe that can make you happy, laid-back, non-dictatorial, non-tyrannical.......
----- Original Message ----
From: John Buxcel <johnbuxcel@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 6:42:00 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling unrespected
Hello all I am not sure what I am really feeling from my kids right now but
I have been out of town for three days and I think I must have thought the
break would create a new out look when I returned but I still have feelings
of discontent. I just can't seem to shake the thought that I am always
picking up after my kids and when I don't it will stay for weeks or longer,
possibly be broken or lost or destroyed. It drives me crazy. Mostly I think
of how much it might cost or just how many times I have picked it up. Of
course it's great when they lose something and they freak out. But we seem
to keep buying more stuff and it continually is discarded.
I have predicted what will be the response to this so let me have it.
My boys are 9, 6, and 3
Yes some of my problem is probably a result of the past when I seem to have
always been the one picking up after my two brothers and yes I am the middle
child. It used to upset me that they "my brothers" and my Dad were such pigs
because my Mom always worked so hard to keep the house neat and clean along
with get this, working as a house keeper and maid at a motel. One more bitch
about my brothers they notoriously destroyed my stuff.
I don't want to resent my boys I want to be the cool laid back person that I
"thought" I used to be. I also want my boys not to think of me as a
dictating tyrant.
So do I learn to walk over the mess or happily pick it up and if it is
destroyed stop buying more cause frankly it is starting to cost a lot.
Loving Father
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mara
Hi,
I can not believe someone on this board is suggesting punishment for not picking up toys.
One thing to think about is what would make it easier and more joyful for you to pick up the toys. Can you put on YOUR favorite music, buy more shelves or bins and create some kind of order that looks good to you? I constantly rearrange the playroom to make it look nice and make cleaning up for me easier. I never make my kids clean (3 and 6), but sometimes they will help me on their own or thank me for making it so nice for them.
When I do it I do it with love, thinking how they will enjoy the fresh room in the morning. I am sure there is more advice coming from some of the pros.
You might also like to read some thoughts on the cleaning issue here: http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/chores/cleaningupafterthemselves.html
All the best,
Mara
----- Original Message ----
From: brad jones <bhmjones@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 2:14:18 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling unrespected
From one loving father to another.
You asked for it, so here it goes <BWG>
I have concluded that our children did not ask to be here, so they owe us no respect.
There is nothing magical about being a parent/child- owner that will <cause> a connection/bond between you and your child, if you want one, you'll have to implement/initiate it since many kids will be indifferent to a connection once they have determined that you have no interest in it either.
Your kids are not responsible for the actions of your dad or your brothers and have no control over your emotional baggage from that era of your life, the time has passed for that to have an effect on you other than being a distant memory.
What does your spouse think about this situation?
I have no problem advising my daughter that the toys she leaves in the walkway 1. will be a hazard to anyone walking thru when the lights are off, 2. will get broken when and if I step on them, and 3. she is the one who took them out so she is responsible for picking them back up. She doesn't like the putting them back up part but will do it when she finds out that she won't get computer privileges or some other (dare I say it here <BWG>) punishment if she doesn't.
You being angry at the cost is also not your children's dilemma to solve. I'm sure that there is some financial limit that prevents you from buying any and every toy that is made and in that sense you have decided what you can and can't buy. Since it is your decision, you are to blame. You have the power to change your habits.
You are the only person in the whole universe that can make you happy, laid-back, non-dictatorial, non-tyrannical. ......
----- Original Message ----
From: John Buxcel <johnbuxcel@gmail. com>
To: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 6:42:00 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling unrespected
Hello all I am not sure what I am really feeling from my kids right now but
I have been out of town for three days and I think I must have thought the
break would create a new out look when I returned but I still have feelings
of discontent. I just can't seem to shake the thought that I am always
picking up after my kids and when I don't it will stay for weeks or longer,
possibly be broken or lost or destroyed. It drives me crazy. Mostly I think
of how much it might cost or just how many times I have picked it up. Of
course it's great when they lose something and they freak out. But we seem
to keep buying more stuff and it continually is discarded.
I have predicted what will be the response to this so let me have it.
My boys are 9, 6, and 3
Yes some of my problem is probably a result of the past when I seem to have
always been the one picking up after my two brothers and yes I am the middle
child. It used to upset me that they "my brothers" and my Dad were such pigs
because my Mom always worked so hard to keep the house neat and clean along
with get this, working as a house keeper and maid at a motel. One more bitch
about my brothers they notoriously destroyed my stuff.
I don't want to resent my boys I want to be the cool laid back person that I
"thought" I used to be. I also want my boys not to think of me as a
dictating tyrant.
So do I learn to walk over the mess or happily pick it up and if it is
destroyed stop buying more cause frankly it is starting to cost a lot.
Loving Father
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo com/r/hs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I can not believe someone on this board is suggesting punishment for not picking up toys.
One thing to think about is what would make it easier and more joyful for you to pick up the toys. Can you put on YOUR favorite music, buy more shelves or bins and create some kind of order that looks good to you? I constantly rearrange the playroom to make it look nice and make cleaning up for me easier. I never make my kids clean (3 and 6), but sometimes they will help me on their own or thank me for making it so nice for them.
When I do it I do it with love, thinking how they will enjoy the fresh room in the morning. I am sure there is more advice coming from some of the pros.
You might also like to read some thoughts on the cleaning issue here: http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/chores/cleaningupafterthemselves.html
All the best,
Mara
----- Original Message ----
From: brad jones <bhmjones@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 2:14:18 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling unrespected
From one loving father to another.
You asked for it, so here it goes <BWG>
I have concluded that our children did not ask to be here, so they owe us no respect.
There is nothing magical about being a parent/child- owner that will <cause> a connection/bond between you and your child, if you want one, you'll have to implement/initiate it since many kids will be indifferent to a connection once they have determined that you have no interest in it either.
Your kids are not responsible for the actions of your dad or your brothers and have no control over your emotional baggage from that era of your life, the time has passed for that to have an effect on you other than being a distant memory.
What does your spouse think about this situation?
I have no problem advising my daughter that the toys she leaves in the walkway 1. will be a hazard to anyone walking thru when the lights are off, 2. will get broken when and if I step on them, and 3. she is the one who took them out so she is responsible for picking them back up. She doesn't like the putting them back up part but will do it when she finds out that she won't get computer privileges or some other (dare I say it here <BWG>) punishment if she doesn't.
You being angry at the cost is also not your children's dilemma to solve. I'm sure that there is some financial limit that prevents you from buying any and every toy that is made and in that sense you have decided what you can and can't buy. Since it is your decision, you are to blame. You have the power to change your habits.
You are the only person in the whole universe that can make you happy, laid-back, non-dictatorial, non-tyrannical. ......
----- Original Message ----
From: John Buxcel <johnbuxcel@gmail. com>
To: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 6:42:00 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling unrespected
Hello all I am not sure what I am really feeling from my kids right now but
I have been out of town for three days and I think I must have thought the
break would create a new out look when I returned but I still have feelings
of discontent. I just can't seem to shake the thought that I am always
picking up after my kids and when I don't it will stay for weeks or longer,
possibly be broken or lost or destroyed. It drives me crazy. Mostly I think
of how much it might cost or just how many times I have picked it up. Of
course it's great when they lose something and they freak out. But we seem
to keep buying more stuff and it continually is discarded.
I have predicted what will be the response to this so let me have it.
My boys are 9, 6, and 3
Yes some of my problem is probably a result of the past when I seem to have
always been the one picking up after my two brothers and yes I am the middle
child. It used to upset me that they "my brothers" and my Dad were such pigs
because my Mom always worked so hard to keep the house neat and clean along
with get this, working as a house keeper and maid at a motel. One more bitch
about my brothers they notoriously destroyed my stuff.
I don't want to resent my boys I want to be the cool laid back person that I
"thought" I used to be. I also want my boys not to think of me as a
dictating tyrant.
So do I learn to walk over the mess or happily pick it up and if it is
destroyed stop buying more cause frankly it is starting to cost a lot.
Loving Father
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo com/r/hs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
brad jones
I'm not really suggesting it as much as I am admitting that I do it. I know I need to wean myself from this system and attempt a more RU approach, but I definitely do not agree that I should be the one to pick up her toys when she is the one who got them out and knew that I desire her to pick them up if she leaves them out. I consider it enabling the type of behaviour that I do not desire if I pick them up for her.
----- Original Message ----
From: Mara <mamadeluz@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 7:36:04 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling unrespected
Hi,
I can not believe someone on this board is suggesting punishment for not picking up toys.
One thing to think about is what would make it easier and more joyful for you to pick up the toys. Can you put on YOUR favorite music, buy more shelves or bins and create some kind of order that looks good to you? I constantly rearrange the playroom to make it look nice and make cleaning up for me easier. I never make my kids clean (3 and 6), but sometimes they will help me on their own or thank me for making it so nice for them.
When I do it I do it with love, thinking how they will enjoy the fresh room in the morning. I am sure there is more advice coming from some of the pros.
You might also like to read some thoughts on the cleaning issue here: http://joyfullyrejo ycing.com/ influencing% 20kid%20behavior /chores/cleaning upafterthemselve s.html
All the best,
Mara
----- Original Message ----
From: brad jones <bhmjones@yahoo. com>
To: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 2:14:18 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling unrespected
From one loving father to another.
You asked for it, so here it goes <BWG>
I have concluded that our children did not ask to be here, so they owe us no respect.
There is nothing magical about being a parent/child- owner that will <cause> a connection/bond between you and your child, if you want one, you'll have to implement/initiate it since many kids will be indifferent to a connection once they have determined that you have no interest in it either.
Your kids are not responsible for the actions of your dad or your brothers and have no control over your emotional baggage from that era of your life, the time has passed for that to have an effect on you other than being a distant memory.
What does your spouse think about this situation?
I have no problem advising my daughter that the toys she leaves in the walkway 1. will be a hazard to anyone walking thru when the lights are off, 2. will get broken when and if I step on them, and 3. she is the one who took them out so she is responsible for picking them back up. She doesn't like the putting them back up part but will do it when she finds out that she won't get computer privileges or some other (dare I say it here <BWG>) punishment if she doesn't.
You being angry at the cost is also not your children's dilemma to solve. I'm sure that there is some financial limit that prevents you from buying any and every toy that is made and in that sense you have decided what you can and can't buy. Since it is your decision, you are to blame. You have the power to change your habits.
You are the only person in the whole universe that can make you happy, laid-back, non-dictatorial, non-tyrannical. ......
----- Original Message ----
From: John Buxcel <johnbuxcel@ gmail. com>
To: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 6:42:00 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling unrespected
Hello all I am not sure what I am really feeling from my kids right now but
I have been out of town for three days and I think I must have thought the
break would create a new out look when I returned but I still have feelings
of discontent. I just can't seem to shake the thought that I am always
picking up after my kids and when I don't it will stay for weeks or longer,
possibly be broken or lost or destroyed. It drives me crazy. Mostly I think
of how much it might cost or just how many times I have picked it up. Of
course it's great when they lose something and they freak out. But we seem
to keep buying more stuff and it continually is discarded.
I have predicted what will be the response to this so let me have it.
My boys are 9, 6, and 3
Yes some of my problem is probably a result of the past when I seem to have
always been the one picking up after my two brothers and yes I am the middle
child. It used to upset me that they "my brothers" and my Dad were such pigs
because my Mom always worked so hard to keep the house neat and clean along
with get this, working as a house keeper and maid at a motel. One more bitch
about my brothers they notoriously destroyed my stuff.
I don't want to resent my boys I want to be the cool laid back person that I
"thought" I used to be. I also want my boys not to think of me as a
dictating tyrant.
So do I learn to walk over the mess or happily pick it up and if it is
destroyed stop buying more cause frankly it is starting to cost a lot.
Loving Father
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----- Original Message ----
From: Mara <mamadeluz@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 7:36:04 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling unrespected
Hi,
I can not believe someone on this board is suggesting punishment for not picking up toys.
One thing to think about is what would make it easier and more joyful for you to pick up the toys. Can you put on YOUR favorite music, buy more shelves or bins and create some kind of order that looks good to you? I constantly rearrange the playroom to make it look nice and make cleaning up for me easier. I never make my kids clean (3 and 6), but sometimes they will help me on their own or thank me for making it so nice for them.
When I do it I do it with love, thinking how they will enjoy the fresh room in the morning. I am sure there is more advice coming from some of the pros.
You might also like to read some thoughts on the cleaning issue here: http://joyfullyrejo ycing.com/ influencing% 20kid%20behavior /chores/cleaning upafterthemselve s.html
All the best,
Mara
----- Original Message ----
From: brad jones <bhmjones@yahoo. com>
To: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 2:14:18 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling unrespected
From one loving father to another.
You asked for it, so here it goes <BWG>
I have concluded that our children did not ask to be here, so they owe us no respect.
There is nothing magical about being a parent/child- owner that will <cause> a connection/bond between you and your child, if you want one, you'll have to implement/initiate it since many kids will be indifferent to a connection once they have determined that you have no interest in it either.
Your kids are not responsible for the actions of your dad or your brothers and have no control over your emotional baggage from that era of your life, the time has passed for that to have an effect on you other than being a distant memory.
What does your spouse think about this situation?
I have no problem advising my daughter that the toys she leaves in the walkway 1. will be a hazard to anyone walking thru when the lights are off, 2. will get broken when and if I step on them, and 3. she is the one who took them out so she is responsible for picking them back up. She doesn't like the putting them back up part but will do it when she finds out that she won't get computer privileges or some other (dare I say it here <BWG>) punishment if she doesn't.
You being angry at the cost is also not your children's dilemma to solve. I'm sure that there is some financial limit that prevents you from buying any and every toy that is made and in that sense you have decided what you can and can't buy. Since it is your decision, you are to blame. You have the power to change your habits.
You are the only person in the whole universe that can make you happy, laid-back, non-dictatorial, non-tyrannical. ......
----- Original Message ----
From: John Buxcel <johnbuxcel@ gmail. com>
To: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 6:42:00 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Feeling unrespected
Hello all I am not sure what I am really feeling from my kids right now but
I have been out of town for three days and I think I must have thought the
break would create a new out look when I returned but I still have feelings
of discontent. I just can't seem to shake the thought that I am always
picking up after my kids and when I don't it will stay for weeks or longer,
possibly be broken or lost or destroyed. It drives me crazy. Mostly I think
of how much it might cost or just how many times I have picked it up. Of
course it's great when they lose something and they freak out. But we seem
to keep buying more stuff and it continually is discarded.
I have predicted what will be the response to this so let me have it.
My boys are 9, 6, and 3
Yes some of my problem is probably a result of the past when I seem to have
always been the one picking up after my two brothers and yes I am the middle
child. It used to upset me that they "my brothers" and my Dad were such pigs
because my Mom always worked so hard to keep the house neat and clean along
with get this, working as a house keeper and maid at a motel. One more bitch
about my brothers they notoriously destroyed my stuff.
I don't want to resent my boys I want to be the cool laid back person that I
"thought" I used to be. I also want my boys not to think of me as a
dictating tyrant.
So do I learn to walk over the mess or happily pick it up and if it is
destroyed stop buying more cause frankly it is starting to cost a lot.
Loving Father
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~I consider it enabling the type of behaviour that I do not
desire if I pick them up for her.~~
What? Enabling her to be a CHILD? Children have different priorities
than we do, how are you "enabling" her if you pick up for her? You're
enabling her to see kindness and graciousness modeled perhaps!
Being kind to others fosters healthy relationships. Healthy
relationships are what unschooling is based on. Trust and respect
aren't about a person that is bigger and stronger manipulating someone
smaller. That's what punishment is all about.
Please, please read "Punished by Rewards" which talks about the damage
of both punishment and rewards. Anytime you feel the need to withdraw
her privileges, just remember how that would feel if another adult did
it to YOU. It sucks.
How much fun would it be to say "Hey, these toys are right in the
hallway and I can't walk through here...can you help me with these
really quick?" and then just start to pick them up?" Much better than
manipulating her by threatening a removal of something that brings joy.
Here's the practical side of it; how much energy does it take to get
her to do the clean-up vs. just doing it yourself? I found that trying
to control other people is a LOT more exhausting than just getting the
damn thing done.
As she sees you modeling respectful behavior, you can bet she'll learn
it just fine. Punishment does not lead to anything but resentment and
removal of trust.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
desire if I pick them up for her.~~
What? Enabling her to be a CHILD? Children have different priorities
than we do, how are you "enabling" her if you pick up for her? You're
enabling her to see kindness and graciousness modeled perhaps!
Being kind to others fosters healthy relationships. Healthy
relationships are what unschooling is based on. Trust and respect
aren't about a person that is bigger and stronger manipulating someone
smaller. That's what punishment is all about.
Please, please read "Punished by Rewards" which talks about the damage
of both punishment and rewards. Anytime you feel the need to withdraw
her privileges, just remember how that would feel if another adult did
it to YOU. It sucks.
How much fun would it be to say "Hey, these toys are right in the
hallway and I can't walk through here...can you help me with these
really quick?" and then just start to pick them up?" Much better than
manipulating her by threatening a removal of something that brings joy.
Here's the practical side of it; how much energy does it take to get
her to do the clean-up vs. just doing it yourself? I found that trying
to control other people is a LOT more exhausting than just getting the
damn thing done.
As she sees you modeling respectful behavior, you can bet she'll learn
it just fine. Punishment does not lead to anything but resentment and
removal of trust.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Pamela Sorooshian
> ~~I consider it enabling the type of behaviour that I do notIt took a long time for my husband to get this - but it all works so
> desire if I pick them up for her.~~
much better if we model helpfulness and generosity and responsibility
and carefulness and orderliness and kindness and all those other
character traits that we have so much desire to (force) see in our
children.
They can't choose to be helpful and generous and responsible and
careful and orderly and kind if they don't have a choice.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
CCB123
Hi - As the mom of a 9.5 year old girl, I have been picking up after
her for years! Her pretend plays can involve objects from throughout
the house in a complex world in the middle of the living room! The
only bit I have to offer, is that she is starting to pick up after
herself! I think it is a developmental change, and it is not all the
time, as usually needs to be asked. . . but. . . tonight she helped
pick up the living room as we are having friends over tomorrow for
brunch! So, there is hope!! Hang in there. . .
her for years! Her pretend plays can involve objects from throughout
the house in a complex world in the middle of the living room! The
only bit I have to offer, is that she is starting to pick up after
herself! I think it is a developmental change, and it is not all the
time, as usually needs to be asked. . . but. . . tonight she helped
pick up the living room as we are having friends over tomorrow for
brunch! So, there is hope!! Hang in there. . .
carnationsgalore
> I'm not really suggesting it as much as I am admitting that I doBrad, I know you've gotten some great responses that will hopefully
> it. I know I need to wean myself from this system and attempt a
> more RU approach, but I definitely do not agree that I should be
> the one to pick up her toys when she is the one who got them out
> and knew that I desire her to pick them up if she leaves them out.
> I consider it enabling the type of behaviour that I do not desire
> if I pick them up for her.
help you towards a more trusting relationship with your daughter. I
thought your first response to this thread was really great. But
then you mentioned the punishment, your desires, and the word
enabling.
Here are some things to ponder, not to answer on the list but just
get you thinking. Why do you want her to have a certain behavior?
Is it because it's your house and your rules? Do you think that
having that certain behavior is something she absolutely needs as
she grows into an adult? Do you really believe that if you don't
force her into picking up her things that she won't ever do it for
herself? Is shaming her to learn the behavior the only way to help
her learn that behavior? Is that lesson so important that you're
really willing to let it be more important than having a trusting,
peaceful relationship with your daughter?
Beth M.
Deb Lewis
***I definitely do not agree that I should be the one to pick up her toys when she is
the one who got them out and knew that I desire her to pick them up if she
leaves them out.***
If my dh makes dinner I clean up the dishes. If he got all that stuff out, he made the "mess," he could clean it up, but I appreciate that he cooked so I clean up. If I insisted all the time he clean up his own mess I wonder how long it would be before he just didn't feel like cooking anymore?
When my kid was small an liked toys and had them all around our little house, I appreciated that he was happy and learning and so when I wanted something picked up I picked it up myself.
If I'd made the picking up of toys an unhappy chore for my kid I wonder how long it would've been before he began to feel like it just wasn't worth the bother to pull some of his favorite stuff out?
I want our unschooling home to be a place where my kid is free to learn and explore. My goal is not to get my kid to pick up things I want picked up. My goal is to provide a happy place of learning. Play is learning.
When he was little and there were lots of toys out, if I thought he was finished with some of them I'd ask, "Can I put some of these away?" Sometimes he'd come help me, and if he didn't it was because what he was doing was more interesting than coming to help put toys away. I'm glad for that! I'm glad he's had more interesting things to do and to think!<g> Sometimes he'd come to snag the toys he still wanted to play with. <g>
A thing that really helped was to have bins for toys in each room. I also liked canvas or string bags on doorknobs. We had a separate bin for trains and train parts because those were pretty special.
And it happened that as Dylan got older he more and more picked up his own stuff. I believe at least part of the reason he's helpful today and will clean up after someone else is because we modeled being helpful and kindly picking up after others.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the one who got them out and knew that I desire her to pick them up if she
leaves them out.***
If my dh makes dinner I clean up the dishes. If he got all that stuff out, he made the "mess," he could clean it up, but I appreciate that he cooked so I clean up. If I insisted all the time he clean up his own mess I wonder how long it would be before he just didn't feel like cooking anymore?
When my kid was small an liked toys and had them all around our little house, I appreciated that he was happy and learning and so when I wanted something picked up I picked it up myself.
If I'd made the picking up of toys an unhappy chore for my kid I wonder how long it would've been before he began to feel like it just wasn't worth the bother to pull some of his favorite stuff out?
I want our unschooling home to be a place where my kid is free to learn and explore. My goal is not to get my kid to pick up things I want picked up. My goal is to provide a happy place of learning. Play is learning.
When he was little and there were lots of toys out, if I thought he was finished with some of them I'd ask, "Can I put some of these away?" Sometimes he'd come help me, and if he didn't it was because what he was doing was more interesting than coming to help put toys away. I'm glad for that! I'm glad he's had more interesting things to do and to think!<g> Sometimes he'd come to snag the toys he still wanted to play with. <g>
A thing that really helped was to have bins for toys in each room. I also liked canvas or string bags on doorknobs. We had a separate bin for trains and train parts because those were pretty special.
And it happened that as Dylan got older he more and more picked up his own stuff. I believe at least part of the reason he's helpful today and will clean up after someone else is because we modeled being helpful and kindly picking up after others.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stacey
okay, i'm just going to say this and sorry if it 'offends' anyone,
etc. i've said this on a 'positive parenting' board, and set off
a 'really' hot topic!!???-but i 'still' don't see why??
basically, i am the person that picks up the toys. i can 'ask' my
kids to pick up, and when they 'remember', they do get real proud of
themselves. story-welcome to the house of ADD, i have it. my husband
has it. my oldest child has it. younger ones??? too young to know.
our motivational level is near 0!! (unless we just 'get that urge';)
for me, there has to be a reward at the other end. dishes pile up
throughout the day and i do them at night. why? because no
one 'bothers' me then, and i can get them done in 10 minutes flat.
otherwise, i'm constantly interrupted!! picking up toys is the
same. i (or if i have the kids, it's the same) pick up in sections.
for example, the past few days i have computer game i like to play. i
can't say i'm very good at it;) so the games are quite short. but i
played a game. when that game was done, i picked up the toys in the
livingroom (we have a toybox in the living room). then i played a
game. then i vacuamed, like a corner of the the room (it was pretty
bad) and then when that goal was met, i vacuamed a little more till i
got bored/motivation was gone!) then played another game (as a
reward) anyways, after going back and forth, i eventually had the
room cleaned. went to the dishes, one sink load (play game) and go
back and forth.
the same works for kids. pick up this, 5 min on computer. also you
can do, watch a show. oh, commercials!!! quick, pick up these toys
fast (turn off tv. goal of this 'game' is to pick up the arm load of
toys fast, 'race' them to the room, put away and come back before the
show starts again. can you do it????? ready, set, go!) yes, they will
be running the the house...but, they have a goal, and in the end it
works.
i know...i'm not sitting down and explaining to them we all need
to 'sit down and work as a family'. fact is, in our house, that is
not a motivation. if i don't see a reward, me, as a parent, am not
interested!! (mom is depressed/ADD). but this works for us all, and
the work gets done.
anyways, i hope this helps someone. i don't mean to back off of
the 'positive parent' thing. fact is, i think there are a lot of
strands that run off of that, and it is not one, straight line.
there are several ways.
stacey:)
that he cooked so I clean up. If I insisted all the time he clean up
his own mess I wonder how long it would be before he just didn't feel
like cooking anymore?
when I wanted something picked up I picked it up myself.
wasn't worth the bother to pull some of his favorite stuff out?
want picked up. My goal is to provide a happy place of learning.
Play is learning.
away?" Sometimes he'd come help me, and if he didn't it was because
what he was doing was more interesting than coming to help put toys
away. I'm glad for that! I'm glad he's had more interesting things
to do and to think!<g> Sometimes he'd come to snag the toys he
still wanted to play with. <g>
bin for trains and train parts because those were pretty special.
today and will clean up after someone else is because we modeled
being helpful and kindly picking up after others.
etc. i've said this on a 'positive parenting' board, and set off
a 'really' hot topic!!???-but i 'still' don't see why??
basically, i am the person that picks up the toys. i can 'ask' my
kids to pick up, and when they 'remember', they do get real proud of
themselves. story-welcome to the house of ADD, i have it. my husband
has it. my oldest child has it. younger ones??? too young to know.
our motivational level is near 0!! (unless we just 'get that urge';)
for me, there has to be a reward at the other end. dishes pile up
throughout the day and i do them at night. why? because no
one 'bothers' me then, and i can get them done in 10 minutes flat.
otherwise, i'm constantly interrupted!! picking up toys is the
same. i (or if i have the kids, it's the same) pick up in sections.
for example, the past few days i have computer game i like to play. i
can't say i'm very good at it;) so the games are quite short. but i
played a game. when that game was done, i picked up the toys in the
livingroom (we have a toybox in the living room). then i played a
game. then i vacuamed, like a corner of the the room (it was pretty
bad) and then when that goal was met, i vacuamed a little more till i
got bored/motivation was gone!) then played another game (as a
reward) anyways, after going back and forth, i eventually had the
room cleaned. went to the dishes, one sink load (play game) and go
back and forth.
the same works for kids. pick up this, 5 min on computer. also you
can do, watch a show. oh, commercials!!! quick, pick up these toys
fast (turn off tv. goal of this 'game' is to pick up the arm load of
toys fast, 'race' them to the room, put away and come back before the
show starts again. can you do it????? ready, set, go!) yes, they will
be running the the house...but, they have a goal, and in the end it
works.
i know...i'm not sitting down and explaining to them we all need
to 'sit down and work as a family'. fact is, in our house, that is
not a motivation. if i don't see a reward, me, as a parent, am not
interested!! (mom is depressed/ADD). but this works for us all, and
the work gets done.
anyways, i hope this helps someone. i don't mean to back off of
the 'positive parent' thing. fact is, i think there are a lot of
strands that run off of that, and it is not one, straight line.
there are several ways.
stacey:)
>her toys when she is
> ***I definitely do not agree that I should be the one to pick up
> the one who got them out and knew that I desire her to pick them upif she
> leaves them out.***stuff out, he made the "mess," he could clean it up, but I appreciate
>
> If my dh makes dinner I clean up the dishes. If he got all that
that he cooked so I clean up. If I insisted all the time he clean up
his own mess I wonder how long it would be before he just didn't feel
like cooking anymore?
>little house, I appreciated that he was happy and learning and so
> When my kid was small an liked toys and had them all around our
when I wanted something picked up I picked it up myself.
>wonder how long it would've been before he began to feel like it just
> If I'd made the picking up of toys an unhappy chore for my kid I
wasn't worth the bother to pull some of his favorite stuff out?
>learn and explore. My goal is not to get my kid to pick up things I
> I want our unschooling home to be a place where my kid is free to
want picked up. My goal is to provide a happy place of learning.
Play is learning.
>was finished with some of them I'd ask, "Can I put some of these
> When he was little and there were lots of toys out, if I thought he
away?" Sometimes he'd come help me, and if he didn't it was because
what he was doing was more interesting than coming to help put toys
away. I'm glad for that! I'm glad he's had more interesting things
to do and to think!<g> Sometimes he'd come to snag the toys he
still wanted to play with. <g>
>I also liked canvas or string bags on doorknobs. We had a separate
> A thing that really helped was to have bins for toys in each room.
bin for trains and train parts because those were pretty special.
>his own stuff. I believe at least part of the reason he's helpful
> And it happened that as Dylan got older he more and more picked up
today and will clean up after someone else is because we modeled
being helpful and kindly picking up after others.
>
> Deb Lewis
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Deb Lewis
***I just can't seem to shake the thought that I am always
picking up after my kids ***
Your kids are really young and they just don't see things the same way you do. They don't see "mess" when they look at their toys.
I think it's unrealistic to expect such young kids to have internalized your standard of and ideas about clean. Even the nine year old. He must seem pretty big and mature to you compared to the little ones. But learning happens according to the learners schedule, not according to the frustrated dad's schedule. <g.> If you can somehow change your expectation I think you'll feel less stress.
Can you change the way you see their toys and stuff? Can you stop seeing it as "mess" and think of it as the physical manifestation of their joy and learning? If you could look around and say to yourself, "Wow, my kids have really had fun today!" instead of "what a mess." I think you could help yourself feel better.
As with learning to read, you won't make your kids learn to be tidy by forcing tidy lessons or by stressing out over their lack of tidiness.<g> As they get older and if they've had your good example they will more and more see the value in taking care of their things. You can't force that kind of learning any more than you can force going potty in the toilet instead of diapers or reading before a kid is ready.
***So do I learn to walk over the mess or happily pick it up and if it is
destroyed stop buying more cause frankly it is starting to cost a lot.***
Walk over the stuff they're still using and be glad you can give them something that makes them so happy. Pick up the things they're finished with as a kindness, to help protect those things from getting broken or lost. Ask for help but be ok with it if they don't help. Someday they will help, really. They're just not there yet. You didn't get mad at them when they couldn't walk yet, right? When you had to carry them everywhere? You just knew one day they'd walk and your back would have it a little easier.<g.>
If you had a most beloved car and you left it parked on the street and it started to hail would you want your partner to run out and move it into the garage or just watch it get dented because you left it parked outside?
It's nice to help people. It's nice to be helped. Being helped is what lets us see the value in being helpful. Every time you pick up toys for your kids you're helping them learn, your being a good person and you're making your little part of the world a happier place.
We had a bin or two for toys in each room. I liked those Rubbermaid totes because they're really sturdy and have handles and were strong enough to double as kid perches. They can be carried or shoved into different rooms as needed. I hung bags for toys on door knobs. That way I didn't have to make multiple trips to different rooms to put stuff away... it just went into the nearest bin or bag. We kept a couple of little boxes for teeny things, parts to other things, so they were easier to find. We made more storage space available in the rooms most often played in. We cleared off a couple of shelves to make room for toys.
Is it mostly toys making up the "mess?" If it's more than toys can you hire a housekeeper one day a week. That way you'd know the big stuff would get done no matter how many toys were out. Could you dedicate one day a week to housekeeping? Could you take the kids out of the house one day a week, swimming or something, so your partner could clean?
***I am not sure what I am really feeling from my kids right now but
I have been out of town for three days and I think I must have thought the
break would create a new out look when I returned but I still have feelings
of discontent.***
Were you hoping to come home to a clean house as a kind of "welcome home, we missed you, we tried to make things comfortable for you after your trip" and were disappointed to find the same old place? Did it leave you feeling unimportant that there was nothing special waiting for you on your return? Did it seem like it didn't make any difference whether you were there or not? That's probably not a kid issue. The kids are still young enough they wouldn't have thought about what you might need to feel welcomed and loved. It's not because they don't love you or didn't miss you, they're just very young.
If you have a need to come home to a peaceful tidy place after you've been traveling, let your partner know that. Maybe it's too much for one person to tidy up a house lived in by five, but if you make your partner aware of your need the two of you might be able to come up with ideas for better meeting that need. If you felt unappreciated or unloved when you got home let your partner know that too. It was probably just wildly busy being the one parent home with three energetic boys.
Deb Lewis.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
picking up after my kids ***
Your kids are really young and they just don't see things the same way you do. They don't see "mess" when they look at their toys.
I think it's unrealistic to expect such young kids to have internalized your standard of and ideas about clean. Even the nine year old. He must seem pretty big and mature to you compared to the little ones. But learning happens according to the learners schedule, not according to the frustrated dad's schedule. <g.> If you can somehow change your expectation I think you'll feel less stress.
Can you change the way you see their toys and stuff? Can you stop seeing it as "mess" and think of it as the physical manifestation of their joy and learning? If you could look around and say to yourself, "Wow, my kids have really had fun today!" instead of "what a mess." I think you could help yourself feel better.
As with learning to read, you won't make your kids learn to be tidy by forcing tidy lessons or by stressing out over their lack of tidiness.<g> As they get older and if they've had your good example they will more and more see the value in taking care of their things. You can't force that kind of learning any more than you can force going potty in the toilet instead of diapers or reading before a kid is ready.
***So do I learn to walk over the mess or happily pick it up and if it is
destroyed stop buying more cause frankly it is starting to cost a lot.***
Walk over the stuff they're still using and be glad you can give them something that makes them so happy. Pick up the things they're finished with as a kindness, to help protect those things from getting broken or lost. Ask for help but be ok with it if they don't help. Someday they will help, really. They're just not there yet. You didn't get mad at them when they couldn't walk yet, right? When you had to carry them everywhere? You just knew one day they'd walk and your back would have it a little easier.<g.>
If you had a most beloved car and you left it parked on the street and it started to hail would you want your partner to run out and move it into the garage or just watch it get dented because you left it parked outside?
It's nice to help people. It's nice to be helped. Being helped is what lets us see the value in being helpful. Every time you pick up toys for your kids you're helping them learn, your being a good person and you're making your little part of the world a happier place.
We had a bin or two for toys in each room. I liked those Rubbermaid totes because they're really sturdy and have handles and were strong enough to double as kid perches. They can be carried or shoved into different rooms as needed. I hung bags for toys on door knobs. That way I didn't have to make multiple trips to different rooms to put stuff away... it just went into the nearest bin or bag. We kept a couple of little boxes for teeny things, parts to other things, so they were easier to find. We made more storage space available in the rooms most often played in. We cleared off a couple of shelves to make room for toys.
Is it mostly toys making up the "mess?" If it's more than toys can you hire a housekeeper one day a week. That way you'd know the big stuff would get done no matter how many toys were out. Could you dedicate one day a week to housekeeping? Could you take the kids out of the house one day a week, swimming or something, so your partner could clean?
***I am not sure what I am really feeling from my kids right now but
I have been out of town for three days and I think I must have thought the
break would create a new out look when I returned but I still have feelings
of discontent.***
Were you hoping to come home to a clean house as a kind of "welcome home, we missed you, we tried to make things comfortable for you after your trip" and were disappointed to find the same old place? Did it leave you feeling unimportant that there was nothing special waiting for you on your return? Did it seem like it didn't make any difference whether you were there or not? That's probably not a kid issue. The kids are still young enough they wouldn't have thought about what you might need to feel welcomed and loved. It's not because they don't love you or didn't miss you, they're just very young.
If you have a need to come home to a peaceful tidy place after you've been traveling, let your partner know that. Maybe it's too much for one person to tidy up a house lived in by five, but if you make your partner aware of your need the two of you might be able to come up with ideas for better meeting that need. If you felt unappreciated or unloved when you got home let your partner know that too. It was probably just wildly busy being the one parent home with three energetic boys.
Deb Lewis.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
I've done this with my now 4yo from the beginning and he is much
more helpful than my teenager. He doesn't always help me and that's
fine. I understand that it's me that wants things picked up, even if
it's for safety reasons. Sometimes I ask him to wait to do something
until I'm done picking up but I only do that for safety.
his share. It was a complete waste. As he got older and bigger and
realized I couldn't force him anymore he would rarely do anything to
help out. Most of the time he just created more and more mess
without any consideration for me (at least it seemed to me. Maybe he
was considering me and doing it on purpose.). The end result of all
of that was having a teen who was very angry with me and me being
miserable.
Alysia
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>than
> How much fun would it be to say "Hey, these toys are right in the
> hallway and I can't walk through here...can you help me with these
> really quick?" and then just start to pick them up?" Much better
> manipulating her by threatening a removal of something that bringsjoy.
I've done this with my now 4yo from the beginning and he is much
more helpful than my teenager. He doesn't always help me and that's
fine. I understand that it's me that wants things picked up, even if
it's for safety reasons. Sometimes I ask him to wait to do something
until I'm done picking up but I only do that for safety.
>get
> Here's the practical side of it; how much energy does it take to
> her to do the clean-up vs. just doing it yourself? I found thattrying
> to control other people is a LOT more exhausting than just gettingthe
> damn thing done.I wasted a lot of time and energy fighting with my oldest son to do
his share. It was a complete waste. As he got older and bigger and
realized I couldn't force him anymore he would rarely do anything to
help out. Most of the time he just created more and more mess
without any consideration for me (at least it seemed to me. Maybe he
was considering me and doing it on purpose.). The end result of all
of that was having a teen who was very angry with me and me being
miserable.
>learn
> As she sees you modeling respectful behavior, you can bet she'll
> it just fine. Punishment does not lead to anything but resentmentand
> removal of trust.Yeah that! See above.
Alysia
Deb Lewis
***Oh gawd why did I even post LOL, this is quickly escalating to Total
Misinterpretation.... <backing off back into the lurker corner hoping to learn
to keep my mouth shut>***
This list is a place for new unschoolers to get advice and ideas about how to make unschooling work. You're new to unschooling. It would be better if you weren't offering advice and ideas since you don't have a lot of unschooling experience.
I don't know anything about free diving. It wouldn't be helpful of me to go to a list for newish divers and give a bunch of advice. It wouldn't be helpful for me to say, "well, just use a breathing apparatus!"
It's a great place for you to ask questions about how unschoolers might handle different problems or to ask how a situation might have played out in an unschooling household. Great place to write about what you're doing and to get ideas about what you might do differently if you hope to make unschooling work at your house.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Misinterpretation.... <backing off back into the lurker corner hoping to learn
to keep my mouth shut>***
This list is a place for new unschoolers to get advice and ideas about how to make unschooling work. You're new to unschooling. It would be better if you weren't offering advice and ideas since you don't have a lot of unschooling experience.
I don't know anything about free diving. It wouldn't be helpful of me to go to a list for newish divers and give a bunch of advice. It wouldn't be helpful for me to say, "well, just use a breathing apparatus!"
It's a great place for you to ask questions about how unschoolers might handle different problems or to ask how a situation might have played out in an unschooling household. Great place to write about what you're doing and to get ideas about what you might do differently if you hope to make unschooling work at your house.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
barefootmamax4
--- In [email protected], brad jones <bhmjones@...>
wrote:
one, you'll have to implement/initiate it since many kids will be
indifferent to a connection once they have determined that you have
no interest in it either.
I do not believe this is true! I can't speak for a father, but for a
mother there is an actual physical bond when a child nurses creating
oxytocin. Yes, you can take away the trust by not meeting your
child's needs or worse, but I'm pretty sure that unless your child
has bonded to peers instead of parents the bond is there and it is
natural. When you are connected to you child they often will do
things for you simply because they want to, the same as you do freely
for them.
lights are off, 2. will get broken when and if I step on them, and 3.
she is the one who took them out so she is responsible for picking
them back up. She doesn't like the putting them back up part but will
do it when she finds out that she won't get computer privileges or
some other (dare I say it here <BWG>) punishment if she doesn't.
I can see the natural conseqence of the toys getting broken,but that
is about it.
Although this is true (the last part) is is completely contrary to
what you wrote above about giving punishments.You wrote that
only "you" are responsible for your happiness, so why does your
happiness appear contingent on your daughter obeying? What if she
says "no"? Then to keep your happiness you must force compliance with
punishments?!You are making your daughter responsible for your
happiness.
You wrote that "you" bought the toy ,and is therefore responsible
for it's cost...and then why do you suddenly act like you are not
responsible when it comes to picking it up? Who's toy is it? If you
truly give it away then why do you care what she does with it? It no
longer belongs to you! I feel confused by your statements.They
contradict each other.
-Kelly
wrote:
><cause> a connection/bond between you and your child, if you want
> >
> There is nothing magical about being a parent/child-owner that will
one, you'll have to implement/initiate it since many kids will be
indifferent to a connection once they have determined that you have
no interest in it either.
I do not believe this is true! I can't speak for a father, but for a
mother there is an actual physical bond when a child nurses creating
oxytocin. Yes, you can take away the trust by not meeting your
child's needs or worse, but I'm pretty sure that unless your child
has bonded to peers instead of parents the bond is there and it is
natural. When you are connected to you child they often will do
things for you simply because they want to, the same as you do freely
for them.
> I have no problem advising my daughter that the toys she leaves inthe walkway 1. will be a hazard to anyone walking thru when the
lights are off, 2. will get broken when and if I step on them, and 3.
she is the one who took them out so she is responsible for picking
them back up. She doesn't like the putting them back up part but will
do it when she finds out that she won't get computer privileges or
some other (dare I say it here <BWG>) punishment if she doesn't.
I can see the natural conseqence of the toys getting broken,but that
is about it.
>happy, laid-back, non-dictatorial, non-tyrannical.......
> You being angry at the cost is also not your children's dilemma to
>solve. I'm sure that there is some financial limit that prevents you
>from buying any and every toy that is made and in that sense you
>have >decided what you can and can't buy. Since it is your decision,
>you are to blame. You have the power to change your habits.
> You are the only person in the whole universe that can make you
Although this is true (the last part) is is completely contrary to
what you wrote above about giving punishments.You wrote that
only "you" are responsible for your happiness, so why does your
happiness appear contingent on your daughter obeying? What if she
says "no"? Then to keep your happiness you must force compliance with
punishments?!You are making your daughter responsible for your
happiness.
You wrote that "you" bought the toy ,and is therefore responsible
for it's cost...and then why do you suddenly act like you are not
responsible when it comes to picking it up? Who's toy is it? If you
truly give it away then why do you care what she does with it? It no
longer belongs to you! I feel confused by your statements.They
contradict each other.
-Kelly
Pamela Sorooshian
On Mar 23, 2008, at 9:10 AM, keetry wrote:
nitpick a point.
It isn't likely true that you can't walk through there. It can sound
like a challenge the way you put it.
You could do what we call the "stingray shuffle" - when walking in the
ocean, shuffle your feet along the sand so that they'll be underneath,
not on top of, any stingrays you might come across. You could walk the
same way through your hallway. I KNOW this because we've let different
rooms in the house get that cluttered. Plus, a kid can handle walking
through the mess easier than an adult - it doesn't seem risky to them.
They don't picture, in their heads, someone twisting an ankle, or one
of their toys being broken.
So, anyway, just be careful about exaggerating - young kids are very
concrete thinkers.
Maybe instead say only, "Hey, I'm going to get this stuff picked up
and organized, if you want to help." Trust the kids to figure out why
that's a nice way to live.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > How much fun would it be to say "Hey, these toys are right in theI totally agree with the sentiment being expressed, but I'm going to
> > hallway and I can't walk through here...can you help me with these
> > really quick?" and then just start to pick them up?" Much better
> than
nitpick a point.
It isn't likely true that you can't walk through there. It can sound
like a challenge the way you put it.
You could do what we call the "stingray shuffle" - when walking in the
ocean, shuffle your feet along the sand so that they'll be underneath,
not on top of, any stingrays you might come across. You could walk the
same way through your hallway. I KNOW this because we've let different
rooms in the house get that cluttered. Plus, a kid can handle walking
through the mess easier than an adult - it doesn't seem risky to them.
They don't picture, in their heads, someone twisting an ankle, or one
of their toys being broken.
So, anyway, just be careful about exaggerating - young kids are very
concrete thinkers.
Maybe instead say only, "Hey, I'm going to get this stuff picked up
and organized, if you want to help." Trust the kids to figure out why
that's a nice way to live.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
brad jones
I semi agree......
----- Original Message ----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 10:20:12 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Feeling unrespected
~~I consider it enabling the type of behaviour that I do not
desire if I pick them up for her.~~
What? Enabling her to be a CHILD? Children have different priorities
than we do, how are you "enabling" her if you pick up for her? You're
enabling her to see kindness and graciousness modeled perhaps!
Being kind to others fosters healthy relationships. Healthy
relationships are what unschooling is based on. Trust and respect
aren't about a person that is bigger and stronger manipulating someone
smaller. That's what punishment is all about.
Please, please read "Punished by Rewards" which talks about the damage
of both punishment and rewards. Anytime you feel the need to withdraw
her privileges, just remember how that would feel if another adult did
it to YOU. It sucks.
How much fun would it be to say "Hey, these toys are right in the
hallway and I can't walk through here...can you help me with these
really quick?" and then just start to pick them up?" Much better than
manipulating her by threatening a removal of something that brings joy.
Here's the practical side of it; how much energy does it take to get
her to do the clean-up vs. just doing it yourself? I found that trying
to control other people is a LOT more exhausting than just getting the
damn thing done.
As she sees you modeling respectful behavior, you can bet she'll learn
it just fine. Punishment does not lead to anything but resentment and
removal of trust.
Ren
learninginfreedom. com
____________________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----- Original Message ----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 10:20:12 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Feeling unrespected
~~I consider it enabling the type of behaviour that I do not
desire if I pick them up for her.~~
What? Enabling her to be a CHILD? Children have different priorities
than we do, how are you "enabling" her if you pick up for her? You're
enabling her to see kindness and graciousness modeled perhaps!
Being kind to others fosters healthy relationships. Healthy
relationships are what unschooling is based on. Trust and respect
aren't about a person that is bigger and stronger manipulating someone
smaller. That's what punishment is all about.
Please, please read "Punished by Rewards" which talks about the damage
of both punishment and rewards. Anytime you feel the need to withdraw
her privileges, just remember how that would feel if another adult did
it to YOU. It sucks.
How much fun would it be to say "Hey, these toys are right in the
hallway and I can't walk through here...can you help me with these
really quick?" and then just start to pick them up?" Much better than
manipulating her by threatening a removal of something that brings joy.
Here's the practical side of it; how much energy does it take to get
her to do the clean-up vs. just doing it yourself? I found that trying
to control other people is a LOT more exhausting than just getting the
damn thing done.
As she sees you modeling respectful behavior, you can bet she'll learn
it just fine. Punishment does not lead to anything but resentment and
removal of trust.
Ren
learninginfreedom. com
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 23, 2008, at 10:57 AM, Stacey wrote:
Picking up for 5 minutes is a good thing to try too.
I think where you've missed the mark is imposing a particular way.
For yourself, you're choosing to clean for the reward of a computer
game. You've had the freedom to try things out. You have the freedom
to dump it all and live in a messy house :-) You have the freedom to
decide the computer game isn't working for you and try something
else. Or not.
But to impose a solution on someone else isn't the same thing at all.
Without freedom to explore and choose, even if they're having fun for
now (or even forever), the idea isn't rooted in actions that will
build relationships. The idea can't be picked up by someone else on
the list and plopped into their family for the same result. (My
daughter, for instance, got tense with competition, even competing
with herself.)
That's why this isn't a "this is what works for our family" type of
list. It's a list for discussing the philosophy of respect and trust
and relationship building. How it looks in each family will be
different but the foundation of the ideas needs to be respect and
trust and relationship building for it to be useful for the list.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> the same works for kids. pick up this, 5 min on computer. also youTurning picking up into a game is good to try. :-)
> can do, watch a show. oh, commercials!!! quick, pick up these toys
> fast (turn off tv. goal of this 'game' is to pick up the arm load of
> toys fast, 'race' them to the room, put away and come back before the
> show starts again. can you do it????? ready, set, go!) yes, they will
> be running the the house...but, they have a goal, and in the end it
> works.
Picking up for 5 minutes is a good thing to try too.
I think where you've missed the mark is imposing a particular way.
For yourself, you're choosing to clean for the reward of a computer
game. You've had the freedom to try things out. You have the freedom
to dump it all and live in a messy house :-) You have the freedom to
decide the computer game isn't working for you and try something
else. Or not.
But to impose a solution on someone else isn't the same thing at all.
Without freedom to explore and choose, even if they're having fun for
now (or even forever), the idea isn't rooted in actions that will
build relationships. The idea can't be picked up by someone else on
the list and plopped into their family for the same result. (My
daughter, for instance, got tense with competition, even competing
with herself.)
That's why this isn't a "this is what works for our family" type of
list. It's a list for discussing the philosophy of respect and trust
and relationship building. How it looks in each family will be
different but the foundation of the ideas needs to be respect and
trust and relationship building for it to be useful for the list.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bhmjones
--- In [email protected], "barefootmamax4"
<barefootmamax4@...> wrote:
is nothing magical about it, it is something the parent implements,
precisely what I said....
midst of learning about this unschooling I can see that I used to
think punishment was good for the child. It had nothing to do with
making me happy...
was responding to. If you re-read what I said about cost, I was
responding to him being unhappy about how much it cost him to buy the
toys, I was pointing out to him that he is the one who decides how
much he spends, not his children....
<barefootmamax4@...> wrote:
>will
> --- In [email protected], brad jones <bhmjones@>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > There is nothing magical about being a parent/child-owner that
> <cause> a connection/bond between you and your child, if you wanta
> one, you'll have to implement/initiate it since many kids will be
> indifferent to a connection once they have determined that you have
> no interest in it either.
>
> I do not believe this is true! I can't speak for a father, but for
> mother there is an actual physical bond when a child nursescreating
> oxytocin. Yes, you can take away the trust by not meeting yourThis proves what I said, I said nothing "magical" is to blame, there
> child's needs or worse, but I'm pretty sure that unless your child
> has bonded to peers instead of parents the bond is there and it is
> natural.
is nothing magical about it, it is something the parent implements,
precisely what I said....
> When you are connected to you child they often will dofreely
> things for you simply because they want to, the same as you do
> for them.in
>
> > I have no problem advising my daughter that the toys she leaves
> the walkway 1. will be a hazard to anyone walking thru when the3.
> lights are off, 2. will get broken when and if I step on them, and
> she is the one who took them out so she is responsible for pickingwill
> them back up. She doesn't like the putting them back up part but
> do it when she finds out that she won't get computer privileges orthat
> some other (dare I say it here <BWG>) punishment if she doesn't.
>
> I can see the natural conseqence of the toys getting broken,but
> is about it.to
>
> >
> > You being angry at the cost is also not your children's dilemma
> >solve. I'm sure that there is some financial limit that preventsyou
> >from buying any and every toy that is made and in that sense youdecision,
> >have >decided what you can and can't buy. Since it is your
> >you are to blame. You have the power to change your habits.with
>
> > You are the only person in the whole universe that can make you
> happy, laid-back, non-dictatorial, non-tyrannical.......
>
> Although this is true (the last part) is is completely contrary to
> what you wrote above about giving punishments.You wrote that
> only "you" are responsible for your happiness, so why does your
> happiness appear contingent on your daughter obeying? What if she
> says "no"? Then to keep your happiness you must force compliance
> punishments?!You are making your daughter responsible for yourThe punishment is not meant for my happiness. Now that I'm in the
> happiness.
midst of learning about this unschooling I can see that I used to
think punishment was good for the child. It had nothing to do with
making me happy...
> You wrote that "you" bought the toy ,and is therefore responsibleno
> for it's cost...and then why do you suddenly act like you are not
> responsible when it comes to picking it up? Who's toy is it? If you
> truly give it away then why do you care what she does with it? It
> longer belongs to you! I feel confused by your statements.TheyI think you are confusing my statement with the other father who I
> contradict each other.
> -Kelly
>
was responding to. If you re-read what I said about cost, I was
responding to him being unhappy about how much it cost him to buy the
toys, I was pointing out to him that he is the one who decides how
much he spends, not his children....