re: mainstream path lurker
patrick morris
I just wanted to say how happy I was to hear you say with trepidation
that you're concerned your son might be drawn into the current of the
main stream. good for you, so many people come into unschooling
hoping their kids will have a good time and pray that they will find
that current. I also ponder what does it mean as my son now 14 begins
to encroach on that demarcated zone of adult responsibility. I
certainly hope for a fun arty ride but do question if my motivations
lack a more practical bent. maybe a good roundtable discussion at the
conference
patrick
" We spend and too often waste a lifetime walking in the shadow of our
ultimate unclaimed self." (from 'a beam of intense darkness')
that you're concerned your son might be drawn into the current of the
main stream. good for you, so many people come into unschooling
hoping their kids will have a good time and pray that they will find
that current. I also ponder what does it mean as my son now 14 begins
to encroach on that demarcated zone of adult responsibility. I
certainly hope for a fun arty ride but do question if my motivations
lack a more practical bent. maybe a good roundtable discussion at the
conference
patrick
" We spend and too often waste a lifetime walking in the shadow of our
ultimate unclaimed self." (from 'a beam of intense darkness')
keetry
--- In [email protected], "patrick morris"
<katinandrea@...> wrote:
wondered about this because I'm not. When I read about what other
unschoolers do, parents and children, they are writing, drawing,
painting, gaming, playing an instrument, writing music, etc., doing
all these arty or creative things. I'm a scientist, an evolutionary
biologist. I am not creative in an arty way at all. I need step by
step directions for doing anything arty or crafty with my children.
I don't want my children to go down the "mainstream" path when they
go out on their own but I would have no idea how to help them pursue
a lifetime of art. I'm not sure what I'm getting here. Not
necessarily looking for any advice or suggestions. I think I'm just
sort of thinking out loud about this subject. I think maybe I'm
worried that my children will be at a disadvantage for unschooling
with such an uncreative mother.
Alysia
<katinandrea@...> wrote:
>motivations
> I
> certainly hope for a fun arty ride but do question if my
> lack a more practical bent.our
> patrick
>
>
> " We spend and too often waste a lifetime walking in the shadow of
> ultimate unclaimed self." (from 'a beam of intense darkness')Is non-arty mainstream? Or, are most unschoolers arty? I have
>
wondered about this because I'm not. When I read about what other
unschoolers do, parents and children, they are writing, drawing,
painting, gaming, playing an instrument, writing music, etc., doing
all these arty or creative things. I'm a scientist, an evolutionary
biologist. I am not creative in an arty way at all. I need step by
step directions for doing anything arty or crafty with my children.
I don't want my children to go down the "mainstream" path when they
go out on their own but I would have no idea how to help them pursue
a lifetime of art. I'm not sure what I'm getting here. Not
necessarily looking for any advice or suggestions. I think I'm just
sort of thinking out loud about this subject. I think maybe I'm
worried that my children will be at a disadvantage for unschooling
with such an uncreative mother.
Alysia
swissarmy_wife
Is taking a mainstream path really an issue? Forgive me if I have
missed something, I haven't been following this entire conversation,
but I wanted to chime in. I don't necessarily think taking a
mainstream path is a bad thing. I think being able to make informed
decisions regarding the paths we take would be more important. My son
loves mainstream sports. Since he is unschooled we feel that he is
better prepared to make decisions regarding whether he sticks to his
sport or not. He's very competitive. Something I learned last
weekend. Wrestling is a very intense and emotional sport for a child,
but he LOVES it and has decided that the pros far outweigh the cons.
(read: being told what to do and yelled at from the sidelines)
As far as art goes, I am fairly creative, but not terribly
spontaneous. If your children want more art in their lives, or you
want to expose them to more art. I don't see a problem with planning
at all. Just don't be rigid in your plan. Many times when we start
something arty, the kids take off on their own. And BTW they may not
pursue a lifetime of art. I don't think art is a "prerequisite" to
unschooling. It's something that many children enjoy (i think kids
are naturally creative) and unschooling provides the perfect scenario
for children to be and stay creative.
-Heather
missed something, I haven't been following this entire conversation,
but I wanted to chime in. I don't necessarily think taking a
mainstream path is a bad thing. I think being able to make informed
decisions regarding the paths we take would be more important. My son
loves mainstream sports. Since he is unschooled we feel that he is
better prepared to make decisions regarding whether he sticks to his
sport or not. He's very competitive. Something I learned last
weekend. Wrestling is a very intense and emotional sport for a child,
but he LOVES it and has decided that the pros far outweigh the cons.
(read: being told what to do and yelled at from the sidelines)
As far as art goes, I am fairly creative, but not terribly
spontaneous. If your children want more art in their lives, or you
want to expose them to more art. I don't see a problem with planning
at all. Just don't be rigid in your plan. Many times when we start
something arty, the kids take off on their own. And BTW they may not
pursue a lifetime of art. I don't think art is a "prerequisite" to
unschooling. It's something that many children enjoy (i think kids
are naturally creative) and unschooling provides the perfect scenario
for children to be and stay creative.
-Heather
> Is non-arty mainstream? Or, are most unschoolers arty? I have
> wondered about this because I'm not. When I read about what other
> unschoolers do, parents and children, they are writing, drawing,
> painting, gaming, playing an instrument, writing music, etc., doing
> all these arty or creative things. I'm a scientist, an evolutionary
> biologist. I am not creative in an arty way at all. I need step by
> step directions for doing anything arty or crafty with my children.
> I don't want my children to go down the "mainstream" path when they
> go out on their own but I would have no idea how to help them pursue
> a lifetime of art. I'm not sure what I'm getting here. Not
> necessarily looking for any advice or suggestions. I think I'm just
> sort of thinking out loud about this subject. I think maybe I'm
> worried that my children will be at a disadvantage for unschooling
> with such an uncreative mother.
>
> Alysia
>
Karen Swanay
>**********************************************************************************************
> > Is non-arty mainstream? Or, are most unschoolers arty? I have
> > wondered about this because I'm not. When I read about what other
> > unschoolers do, parents and children, they are writing, drawing,
> > painting, gaming, playing an instrument, writing music, etc., doing
> > all these arty or creative things. I'm a scientist, an evolutionary
> > biologist. I am not creative in an arty way at all. I need step by
> > step directions for doing anything arty or crafty with my children.
> > I don't want my children to go down the "mainstream" path when they
> > go out on their own but I would have no idea how to help them pursue
> > a lifetime of art. I'm not sure what I'm getting here. Not
> > necessarily looking for any advice or suggestions. I think I'm just
> > sort of thinking out loud about this subject. I think maybe I'm
> > worried that my children will be at a disadvantage for unschooling
> > with such an uncreative mother.
> >
> > Alysia
I don't know, you know, because I'm so new to this and I have
misinterpreted before, but I didn't think the point of unschooling was
for us as parents to be feeding our talents and interests to our
children. I *do* think that to a certain degree, either nature,
nurture or both, that kids take on the desires of their parents
naturally. Well some do. I am an animal nut. I began working with
animals when I was 12. I've been a zookeeper, a large animal trainer,
a dog trainer, groomer, vet tech, and now I work with aggressive dogs,
using +P methods, helping to change the culture of force and
pain-based training for these dogs. Both of my kids like animals.
One of my kids likes them as I do. I didn't force it on him, I just
think he saw my passion and watched my involvement and it either
struck a chord in him or he took on what he saw. Will he go into
animal behavior when he's older? I don't know. But I don't think
it's necessary for me to pretend to be something I'm not for him or
for him to pretend to an interest he doesn't have you know?
If you aren't artsy, OK. Are your kids? Do they even seem
interested? Maybe they'd much rather spend time at a museum than
gluing macaroni to paper plates. I think that's OK. Not everyone has
the interest in everything else, and certainly not everyone has the
talent. And I'm *SURE* you are creative in other ways.
Karen
--
Karen
http://temptabo.blogspot.com/
Ren Allen
~~I'm a scientist, an evolutionary
biologist. I am not creative in an arty way at all. ~~
I don't think that's true.:) Here's what I mean by that...
some people are naturally more abstract in their thinking, full of
color and pictures. Some people are more logical and concrete full of
questions and reason. We all have varying degrees of interests and
talents and natural leanings. We don't all need to be artists, that's
for sure!
But, I believe that humans are born creative and expressive. It's not
about how they express that part of themselves, it's more important
they feel free to do so. You might express your creative self by
solving a complex scientific problem.
We are all creative forces, we all need to express who-we-are in some
manner. That's part of being human in my opinion. I guess the question
I would have for you is when did you decide you weren't an artist? Is
this something you enjoyed as a child? Colors, textures and design
seem to be pretty natural for young children and they decide at some
point they aren't "good enough" or the ridicule and comparison they
receive shuts them down to even attempting art.
Art is (at it's best) free expression. Not rules and "how to" and step
by step. It's manipulating colors or materials in a way that makes you
feel good, that expresses something within you!
Again, some people won't find as much satisfaction doing those sorts
of activities and that's ok. But music and art and writing belong to
all humans, they don't belong exclusively to artistic types. Those
forms of expression are ultimately about human connections to
me....not about whether you're the next Picasso or Mozart or Thoreau!
I have found that with children, you only need have a variety of
materials available and they will find ways to create with them just
fine. If we can approach art and other activities with the heart of a
young child, I believe we can find joy in the simple exploration of
such things. Watch them, they are young scientists about
it...observing, experimenting, analyzing, making conclusions etc..
So ask yourself if you don't do those things simply because you have
zero interest in them, or if you don't do them because you're afraid
to explore them (or shut down to the idea of being artistic). Because
it matters. It's one thing if you aren't interested, it's another
thing entirely if you're avoiding them the way I used to avoid math!:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
biologist. I am not creative in an arty way at all. ~~
I don't think that's true.:) Here's what I mean by that...
some people are naturally more abstract in their thinking, full of
color and pictures. Some people are more logical and concrete full of
questions and reason. We all have varying degrees of interests and
talents and natural leanings. We don't all need to be artists, that's
for sure!
But, I believe that humans are born creative and expressive. It's not
about how they express that part of themselves, it's more important
they feel free to do so. You might express your creative self by
solving a complex scientific problem.
We are all creative forces, we all need to express who-we-are in some
manner. That's part of being human in my opinion. I guess the question
I would have for you is when did you decide you weren't an artist? Is
this something you enjoyed as a child? Colors, textures and design
seem to be pretty natural for young children and they decide at some
point they aren't "good enough" or the ridicule and comparison they
receive shuts them down to even attempting art.
Art is (at it's best) free expression. Not rules and "how to" and step
by step. It's manipulating colors or materials in a way that makes you
feel good, that expresses something within you!
Again, some people won't find as much satisfaction doing those sorts
of activities and that's ok. But music and art and writing belong to
all humans, they don't belong exclusively to artistic types. Those
forms of expression are ultimately about human connections to
me....not about whether you're the next Picasso or Mozart or Thoreau!
I have found that with children, you only need have a variety of
materials available and they will find ways to create with them just
fine. If we can approach art and other activities with the heart of a
young child, I believe we can find joy in the simple exploration of
such things. Watch them, they are young scientists about
it...observing, experimenting, analyzing, making conclusions etc..
So ask yourself if you don't do those things simply because you have
zero interest in them, or if you don't do them because you're afraid
to explore them (or shut down to the idea of being artistic). Because
it matters. It's one thing if you aren't interested, it's another
thing entirely if you're avoiding them the way I used to avoid math!:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH
Ah, but evolutionary biology is one of the most beautiful things in the world. It is such a wonderful symphony of connections and growth and change. Oh, I can wax quite lyrical about evolutionary biology. Simon and Linnaea know a lot about the workings of the natural world because David (an evolutionary anthropologist) and I (another evolutionary anthropologist) are so in love with what we know, and excited by it, and often stunned by it. And we talk about it.
There is an art to science. There is a creativity inherent in biology. They aren't separate things. In the preface to Richard Dawkins' book Unweaving the Rainbow he says;
My title is from Keats, who believed that Newton had destroyed all the poetry of the rainbow by reducing it to the prismatic colours. Keats could hardly have been more wrong, and my aim is to guide all who are tempted by a similar view towards the opposite conclusion. Science is, or ought to be, the inspiration for great poetry,..."
Anyhow, there is beauty in symmetry and there is amazement in discovering that symmetry is a marker of health and the ability of the individual to overcome environmental insults. It is a wonderous thing to see how the beauty we find in the symmetrical is based on reproductive drive.
Just like with all things unschooling, don't separate the scientific from the artistic. I don't feel like I'm reaching clarity here, but really, there is a lot of overlap between the two.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
From: keetry <keetry@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 19 March, 2008 11:50:45 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: mainstream path lurker
--- In [email protected], "patrick morris"
<katinandrea@...> wrote:
wondered about this because I'm not. When I read about what other
unschoolers do, parents and children, they are writing, drawing,
painting, gaming, playing an instrument, writing music, etc., doing
all these arty or creative things. I'm a scientist, an evolutionary
biologist. I am not creative in an arty way at all. I need step by
step directions for doing anything arty or crafty with my children.
I don't want my children to go down the "mainstream" path when they
go out on their own but I would have no idea how to help them pursue
a lifetime of art. I'm not sure what I'm getting here. Not
necessarily looking for any advice or suggestions. I think I'm just
sort of thinking out loud about this subject. I think maybe I'm
worried that my children will be at a disadvantage for unschooling
with such an uncreative mother.
Alysia
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There is an art to science. There is a creativity inherent in biology. They aren't separate things. In the preface to Richard Dawkins' book Unweaving the Rainbow he says;
My title is from Keats, who believed that Newton had destroyed all the poetry of the rainbow by reducing it to the prismatic colours. Keats could hardly have been more wrong, and my aim is to guide all who are tempted by a similar view towards the opposite conclusion. Science is, or ought to be, the inspiration for great poetry,..."
Anyhow, there is beauty in symmetry and there is amazement in discovering that symmetry is a marker of health and the ability of the individual to overcome environmental insults. It is a wonderous thing to see how the beauty we find in the symmetrical is based on reproductive drive.
Just like with all things unschooling, don't separate the scientific from the artistic. I don't feel like I'm reaching clarity here, but really, there is a lot of overlap between the two.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message ----
From: keetry <keetry@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 19 March, 2008 11:50:45 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: mainstream path lurker
--- In [email protected], "patrick morris"
<katinandrea@...> wrote:
>motivations
> I
> certainly hope for a fun arty ride but do question if my
> lack a more practical bent.our
> patrick
>
>
> " We spend and too often waste a lifetime walking in the shadow of
> ultimate unclaimed self." (from 'a beam of intense darkness')Is non-arty mainstream? Or, are most unschoolers arty? I have
>
wondered about this because I'm not. When I read about what other
unschoolers do, parents and children, they are writing, drawing,
painting, gaming, playing an instrument, writing music, etc., doing
all these arty or creative things. I'm a scientist, an evolutionary
biologist. I am not creative in an arty way at all. I need step by
step directions for doing anything arty or crafty with my children.
I don't want my children to go down the "mainstream" path when they
go out on their own but I would have no idea how to help them pursue
a lifetime of art. I'm not sure what I'm getting here. Not
necessarily looking for any advice or suggestions. I think I'm just
sort of thinking out loud about this subject. I think maybe I'm
worried that my children will be at a disadvantage for unschooling
with such an uncreative mother.
Alysia
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hbmccarty
patrick morris wrote:
amazing musician or has not picked up a math book by the age of 13, that
it the end of unschooling when it could be just the beginning of a whole
new exciting stage of life lived in freedom. To me a huge breakthrough
has been to really accept that my kids could grow up and do anything at
all. Maybe they could find their happiness in academia or the arts, but
that is not better than any other path. One never knows where any
interest can lead, but if it doesn't lead anywhere apparent- that is
wonderful, too. To assume that we as parents know what is a valid way to
spend time or what a right way of thinking is is so presumptuous- how
can one be so confident to know what is right for another person? day to
day or for a lifetime-
his own money, and has a vision of himself becoming independent. It
seems that there is so much fear in parents that their kids will not
grow up and become independent that it becomes a self-fulfilling
prophecy. I would think that most kids would have their own motivations
to become responsible adults and that the parent is mainly there to
support and facilitate that path. Thought the timing certainly would
vary. It is so fun to be along with him on this journey- it inspires me
on my own continuing one-
Heather
>Yes, I really have seen this, too. And then when their kid is not an
> I just wanted to say how happy I was to hear you say with trepidation
> that you're concerned your son might be drawn into the current of the
> main stream. good for you, so many people come into unschooling
> hoping their kids will have a good time and pray that they will find
> that current.
>
amazing musician or has not picked up a math book by the age of 13, that
it the end of unschooling when it could be just the beginning of a whole
new exciting stage of life lived in freedom. To me a huge breakthrough
has been to really accept that my kids could grow up and do anything at
all. Maybe they could find their happiness in academia or the arts, but
that is not better than any other path. One never knows where any
interest can lead, but if it doesn't lead anywhere apparent- that is
wonderful, too. To assume that we as parents know what is a valid way to
spend time or what a right way of thinking is is so presumptuous- how
can one be so confident to know what is right for another person? day to
day or for a lifetime-
>I have seen my son become very practical- he likes to be able to earn
> I also ponder what does it mean as my son now 14 begins
> to encroach on that demarcated zone of adult responsibility. I
> certainly hope for a fun arty ride but do question if my motivations
> lack a more practical bent. maybe a good roundtable discussion at the
> conference
> patrick
>
his own money, and has a vision of himself becoming independent. It
seems that there is so much fear in parents that their kids will not
grow up and become independent that it becomes a self-fulfilling
prophecy. I would think that most kids would have their own motivations
to become responsible adults and that the parent is mainly there to
support and facilitate that path. Thought the timing certainly would
vary. It is so fun to be along with him on this journey- it inspires me
on my own continuing one-
Heather
keetry
--- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife"
<heatherbean@...> wrote:
their lives, not anything to do with a career or job choice, per se. I
do not want my children to grow up and not think for themselves and
follow rules simply because they are rules or do what they're told
simply because an authority figure told them to.
I think I said that in response to whatever the person before me
posted about it, which I now can't remember. LOL I'd have to go back
and read the post that I responded to. I can see how what I wrote made
it look like I was saying art was not mainstream or mainstream was not
good.
Alysia
<heatherbean@...> wrote:
>When I say mainstream I mean in terms of the way most people live
> Is taking a mainstream path really an issue?
> -Heather
>
their lives, not anything to do with a career or job choice, per se. I
do not want my children to grow up and not think for themselves and
follow rules simply because they are rules or do what they're told
simply because an authority figure told them to.
I think I said that in response to whatever the person before me
posted about it, which I now can't remember. LOL I'd have to go back
and read the post that I responded to. I can see how what I wrote made
it look like I was saying art was not mainstream or mainstream was not
good.
Alysia
Pamela Sorooshian
I'm a statistician and an economist. So is my husband.
But our three kids are VERY "arty." I'm not sure how that happened
other than that we really kept supplying them with materials,
experiences, encouragement to pursue their own interests, and that is
the direction their interests went.
We did have a LOT of materials around - tons of paper, markers,
crayons, paints, chalk, brushes, scissors, yarn, string, hole
punchers, popsicle sticks, fabric, thread, beads, needles, wooden
thingies, buttons, glitter, glue guns, glue sticks, white glue,
"stiffy" glue, and on and on and on. Lots of homemade playdough. I
don't think it mattered so much what the materials were - they were
always just things that we picked up at garage sales, thrift stores,
or the art or craft stores. Wander around in Michaels or another craft
store - if the kids are interested, they'll see "projects" they might
want to do. We kept lots of magazines around - they did a lot of
collage-making while watching tv or listening to books on tape or to
music.
It was all "free play" - we didn't do very many predetermined crafts.
The kids "made messes" mostly! (That's from other peoples' points of
view, not ours.) Most of those creative materials were always
available for them to use in their pretend play - indoors or outdoors.
Get some really good materials, too, for drawing and coloring and
painting -- because there is a great joy in using high quality stuff -
like PrismaColor colored pencils. They are expensive, so we took
better care of them, the kids valued them and still have their large
boxes of PrismaColor pencils, used so much that they are only an inch
or so long, now.
You could have fun looking through and ordering a lot of cool stuff
from the Dick Blick art supplies catalog.
When the kids were young, we went for very quick trips to lots of
museums, art galleries, stopped by the art department at the college
where I teach, paused to look at paintings or photographs hanging in
public places (like some MacDonalds have local artwork in them).
Roya (23) is an artist - ceramics, painting, drawing and she knits and
crochets - designs her own stuff. Roxana (20) doesn't create visual
art of her own, but she is in Paris for three months and has a pass to
the Louvre where she goes every time she has a spare couple of hours.
And I'm impressed by the artistry of the photographs she's been taking
while living in Europe. Rosie (17) makes latch-hook rugs - she buys
the kits. She also crochets and knits.
Plus - all three of them sing a lot. Roxana performs a lot in
musicals. Rox and Rosie both are into dancing and acting, too. We go
to the theater a LOT.
None of the development of all this arty side of life required me to
teach them anything. It was all exposure and enjoyment and free play.
When they got older - into their mid-teens, they started wanting more
formal experiences. Roya enrolled in a ceramics class at the community
college and continued with that for years. She joined a college vocal
ensemble and performed with them for a couple of years. Roxana and
Rosie take community college courses in musical theater, acting,
dance, and technical theater like lighting design and stage make-up.
-pam
But our three kids are VERY "arty." I'm not sure how that happened
other than that we really kept supplying them with materials,
experiences, encouragement to pursue their own interests, and that is
the direction their interests went.
We did have a LOT of materials around - tons of paper, markers,
crayons, paints, chalk, brushes, scissors, yarn, string, hole
punchers, popsicle sticks, fabric, thread, beads, needles, wooden
thingies, buttons, glitter, glue guns, glue sticks, white glue,
"stiffy" glue, and on and on and on. Lots of homemade playdough. I
don't think it mattered so much what the materials were - they were
always just things that we picked up at garage sales, thrift stores,
or the art or craft stores. Wander around in Michaels or another craft
store - if the kids are interested, they'll see "projects" they might
want to do. We kept lots of magazines around - they did a lot of
collage-making while watching tv or listening to books on tape or to
music.
It was all "free play" - we didn't do very many predetermined crafts.
The kids "made messes" mostly! (That's from other peoples' points of
view, not ours.) Most of those creative materials were always
available for them to use in their pretend play - indoors or outdoors.
Get some really good materials, too, for drawing and coloring and
painting -- because there is a great joy in using high quality stuff -
like PrismaColor colored pencils. They are expensive, so we took
better care of them, the kids valued them and still have their large
boxes of PrismaColor pencils, used so much that they are only an inch
or so long, now.
You could have fun looking through and ordering a lot of cool stuff
from the Dick Blick art supplies catalog.
When the kids were young, we went for very quick trips to lots of
museums, art galleries, stopped by the art department at the college
where I teach, paused to look at paintings or photographs hanging in
public places (like some MacDonalds have local artwork in them).
Roya (23) is an artist - ceramics, painting, drawing and she knits and
crochets - designs her own stuff. Roxana (20) doesn't create visual
art of her own, but she is in Paris for three months and has a pass to
the Louvre where she goes every time she has a spare couple of hours.
And I'm impressed by the artistry of the photographs she's been taking
while living in Europe. Rosie (17) makes latch-hook rugs - she buys
the kits. She also crochets and knits.
Plus - all three of them sing a lot. Roxana performs a lot in
musicals. Rox and Rosie both are into dancing and acting, too. We go
to the theater a LOT.
None of the development of all this arty side of life required me to
teach them anything. It was all exposure and enjoyment and free play.
When they got older - into their mid-teens, they started wanting more
formal experiences. Roya enrolled in a ceramics class at the community
college and continued with that for years. She joined a college vocal
ensemble and performed with them for a couple of years. Roxana and
Rosie take community college courses in musical theater, acting,
dance, and technical theater like lighting design and stage make-up.
-pam
On Mar 19, 2008, at 4:50 AM, keetry wrote:
> I don't want my children to go down the "mainstream" path when they
> go out on their own but I would have no idea how to help them pursue
> a lifetime of art. I'm not sure what I'm getting here. Not
> necessarily looking for any advice or suggestions. I think I'm just
> sort of thinking out loud about this subject. I think maybe I'm
> worried that my children will be at a disadvantage for unschooling
> with such an uncreative mother.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
art. My children don't see me doing art. Therefore, am I indirectly
influencing them away from art since they don't see me doing it?
I see it emphasized over and over again in unschooling groups that
we model behavior, interests, etc. If I don't model an interest in
art, will my children, who may be naturally arty, lose that in
themselves?
"So ask yourself if you don't do those things simply because you have
zero interest in them, or if you don't do them because you're afraid
to explore them (or shut down to the idea of being artistic)."
(posted by Ren)
I don't recall any time feeling an interest in art that was
squashed. I honestly think I never really enjoyed it. Periodically
now, people try to expose me to art or music and I'm just not
interested. For several years now I've been searching for some art
to hang in my home to make it look more decorated. I can't find a
thing that I like enough to want to spend my money on. I don't buy
music CDs, either. I do remember doing Algebra with my dad when I
was very young and absolutely loving it. That's how we would pass
time during long car rides.:-)
Alysia
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
> I don't know, you know, because I'm so new to this and I havewas
> misinterpreted before, but I didn't think the point of unschooling
> for us as parents to be feeding our talents and interests to ourwith
> children. I *do* think that to a certain degree, either nature,
> nurture or both, that kids take on the desires of their parents
> naturally. Well some do. I am an animal nut. I began working
> animals when I was 12. I've been a zookeeper, a large animaltrainer,
> a dog trainer, groomer, vet tech, and now I work with aggressivedogs,
> using +P methods, helping to change the culture of force andjust
> pain-based training for these dogs. Both of my kids like animals.
> One of my kids likes them as I do. I didn't force it on him, I
> think he saw my passion and watched my involvement and it eitherhas
> struck a chord in him or he took on what he saw. Will he go into
> animal behavior when he's older? I don't know. But I don't think
> it's necessary for me to pretend to be something I'm not for him or
> for him to pretend to an interest he doesn't have you know?
>
> If you aren't artsy, OK. Are your kids? Do they even seem
> interested? Maybe they'd much rather spend time at a museum than
> gluing macaroni to paper plates. I think that's OK. Not everyone
> the interest in everything else, and certainly not everyone has theI agree with this and I guess that's why it concerns me. I don't do
> talent. And I'm *SURE* you are creative in other ways.
>
> Karen
> --
> Karen
>
> http://temptabo.blogspot.com/
>
art. My children don't see me doing art. Therefore, am I indirectly
influencing them away from art since they don't see me doing it?
I see it emphasized over and over again in unschooling groups that
we model behavior, interests, etc. If I don't model an interest in
art, will my children, who may be naturally arty, lose that in
themselves?
"So ask yourself if you don't do those things simply because you have
zero interest in them, or if you don't do them because you're afraid
to explore them (or shut down to the idea of being artistic)."
(posted by Ren)
I don't recall any time feeling an interest in art that was
squashed. I honestly think I never really enjoyed it. Periodically
now, people try to expose me to art or music and I'm just not
interested. For several years now I've been searching for some art
to hang in my home to make it look more decorated. I can't find a
thing that I like enough to want to spend my money on. I don't buy
music CDs, either. I do remember doing Algebra with my dad when I
was very young and absolutely loving it. That's how we would pass
time during long car rides.:-)
Alysia
Pamela Sorooshian
I remember playing cards a lot with my dad when I was very young.
Not much artsy going on in my house, either. And I DID have a
traumatic experience with art, in school, in 4th grade.
But, I want to say that it is worth it to get over it.
Yet another chance to heal, to fill a gap in ourselves, through
parenting our own children.
Maybe a good start is to focus on bringing the world of art to them by
noticing what they notice. I remember we were in a shopping mall,
once, and my oldest daughter mentioned something about the store
fronts - how you could often tell what kind of merchandise was going
to be inside the store, by what the design of the outside of the store
was. What she said was that it felt weird to her if the outside of
the store didn't "go with" what was inside. HUH? I'd have NEVER even
noticed anything like that. So - we walked around the mall, looking at
store fronts and guessing what was inside and then checking. Got ME to
focus on "design" in a way I never had before and, ever since that
day, I've had a sort of sweet fondness for beautifully (and
accurately) designed store fronts (facades?). That was my little toe
stepping into the waters of a growing appreciation of architectural
design as art.
Play some music in the car - try LOTS of different kinds and, instead
of focusing on whether you like it or not, focus on your kids'
response to it.
This is kind of like playing "warmer and colder" - do more of things
that are warmer, less when the response is colder.
Go to museums for quick trips - just find something interesting, enjoy
it, and then leave. Make these visits short and sweet. My kids, as
young adults, are now HUGE art museum lovers. I'm really pleased for
them to have this in their lives. But, amazingly, "I" am now also an
art lover - and that was an unexpected side-effect of unschooling. A
bonus for me.
-pam
Not much artsy going on in my house, either. And I DID have a
traumatic experience with art, in school, in 4th grade.
But, I want to say that it is worth it to get over it.
Yet another chance to heal, to fill a gap in ourselves, through
parenting our own children.
Maybe a good start is to focus on bringing the world of art to them by
noticing what they notice. I remember we were in a shopping mall,
once, and my oldest daughter mentioned something about the store
fronts - how you could often tell what kind of merchandise was going
to be inside the store, by what the design of the outside of the store
was. What she said was that it felt weird to her if the outside of
the store didn't "go with" what was inside. HUH? I'd have NEVER even
noticed anything like that. So - we walked around the mall, looking at
store fronts and guessing what was inside and then checking. Got ME to
focus on "design" in a way I never had before and, ever since that
day, I've had a sort of sweet fondness for beautifully (and
accurately) designed store fronts (facades?). That was my little toe
stepping into the waters of a growing appreciation of architectural
design as art.
Play some music in the car - try LOTS of different kinds and, instead
of focusing on whether you like it or not, focus on your kids'
response to it.
This is kind of like playing "warmer and colder" - do more of things
that are warmer, less when the response is colder.
Go to museums for quick trips - just find something interesting, enjoy
it, and then leave. Make these visits short and sweet. My kids, as
young adults, are now HUGE art museum lovers. I'm really pleased for
them to have this in their lives. But, amazingly, "I" am now also an
art lover - and that was an unexpected side-effect of unschooling. A
bonus for me.
-pam
On Mar 19, 2008, at 10:04 AM, keetry wrote:
>
> I don't recall any time feeling an interest in art that was
> squashed. I honestly think I never really enjoyed it. Periodically
> now, people try to expose me to art or music and I'm just not
> interested. For several years now I've been searching for some art
> to hang in my home to make it look more decorated. I can't find a
> thing that I like enough to want to spend my money on. I don't buy
> music CDs, either. I do remember doing Algebra with my dad when I
> was very young and absolutely loving it. That's how we would pass
> time during long car rides.:-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb
--- In [email protected], "keetry" <keetry@...> wrote:
yes, it is step by step and logical BUT there's also an intuitive
creative aspect to science (and numbers) as well. Creativity is not
confined to papier mache and oil paints and writing poetry. There's
creativity in connecting the dots of the data in a new way that sheds a
different perspective on something.
Plus, just because you aren't particularly interested in "arty" stuff
doesn't mean you can't *facilitate* their access to the arts if that's
something of interest to someone.
--Deb
> I think maybe I'mAh but you're missing that science is a very creative thinking process -
> worried that my children will be at a disadvantage for unschooling
> with such an uncreative mother.
>
> Alysia
>
yes, it is step by step and logical BUT there's also an intuitive
creative aspect to science (and numbers) as well. Creativity is not
confined to papier mache and oil paints and writing poetry. There's
creativity in connecting the dots of the data in a new way that sheds a
different perspective on something.
Plus, just because you aren't particularly interested in "arty" stuff
doesn't mean you can't *facilitate* their access to the arts if that's
something of interest to someone.
--Deb
[email protected]
Although modeling is HUGE, we all have interests that no one else in
the family shares. How do you think that happens?
The *key* is to honor passions even if it's not something we would
choose.
You consider yourself "un-artsy" (and I agree with Schuyler that
biology IS art!), but that doesn't mean you can't fill your house with
art supplies and take them out to play around with. Find the art in
biology and play with THAT idea.
We host house concerts, and one of the musical artists who has
performed here is Marjorie Thompson, a biology professor at Brown. She
has made (and sells) what she calls "biologically correct" art. <g> She
also makes a working "biological clock." <G>
http://www.mosugarmusic.com/jewelry/jewelry_purchase.htm
Here's what she says about her "Cell Fun Jewelry"
"Marjorie has been teaching Histology and Embryology to Biology
students at Brown University since 1981. In 1990, she began crafting
these "Biologically Correct" pins as a device for instruction, and with
inspiration provided by design in nature. The line was later expanded
to include Biological Clocks. She has a Certificate in Scientific
Illustration from Rhode Island School of Design and has worked for
decades as a freelance part time biomedical illustrator.
"Items exhibit attention to detail including organelles and whole
cell/structure morphology."
I think they are a scream! Oh---and her music is fabulous too---and
she's coming back to our house to perform in July. Everyone is welcome!
<G>
My husband is a "mathie" and sees the beauty in numbers. He LOVES
patterns---and likes pointing out patterns that he sees *everywhere*!
<G>
Have you tried Artist Trading Cards? It's a wonderful way to be "artsy"
and creative in a small way. You might find you really like that.
-----Original Message-----
From: keetry <keetry@...>
art. My children don't see me doing art. Therefore, am I indirectly
influencing them away from art since they don't see me doing it?
I see it emphasized over and over again in unschooling groups that
we model behavior, interests, etc. If I don't model an interest in
art, will my children, who may be naturally arty, lose that in
themselves?
"So ask yourself if you don't do those things simply because you have
zero interest in them, or if you don't do them because you're afraid
to explore them (or shut down to the idea of being artistic)."
(posted by Ren)
I don't recall any time feeling an interest in art that was
squashed. I honestly think I never really enjoyed it. Periodically
now, people try to expose me to art or music and I'm just not
interested. For several years now I've been searching for some art
to hang in my home to make it look more decorated. I can't find a
thing that I like enough to want to spend my money on. I don't buy
music CDs, either. I do remember doing Algebra with my dad when I
was very young and absolutely loving it. That's how we would pass
time during long car rides.:-)
the family shares. How do you think that happens?
The *key* is to honor passions even if it's not something we would
choose.
You consider yourself "un-artsy" (and I agree with Schuyler that
biology IS art!), but that doesn't mean you can't fill your house with
art supplies and take them out to play around with. Find the art in
biology and play with THAT idea.
We host house concerts, and one of the musical artists who has
performed here is Marjorie Thompson, a biology professor at Brown. She
has made (and sells) what she calls "biologically correct" art. <g> She
also makes a working "biological clock." <G>
http://www.mosugarmusic.com/jewelry/jewelry_purchase.htm
Here's what she says about her "Cell Fun Jewelry"
"Marjorie has been teaching Histology and Embryology to Biology
students at Brown University since 1981. In 1990, she began crafting
these "Biologically Correct" pins as a device for instruction, and with
inspiration provided by design in nature. The line was later expanded
to include Biological Clocks. She has a Certificate in Scientific
Illustration from Rhode Island School of Design and has worked for
decades as a freelance part time biomedical illustrator.
"Items exhibit attention to detail including organelles and whole
cell/structure morphology."
I think they are a scream! Oh---and her music is fabulous too---and
she's coming back to our house to perform in July. Everyone is welcome!
<G>
My husband is a "mathie" and sees the beauty in numbers. He LOVES
patterns---and likes pointing out patterns that he sees *everywhere*!
<G>
Have you tried Artist Trading Cards? It's a wonderful way to be "artsy"
and creative in a small way. You might find you really like that.
-----Original Message-----
From: keetry <keetry@...>
>I agree with this and I guess that's why it concerns me. I don't do
art. My children don't see me doing art. Therefore, am I indirectly
influencing them away from art since they don't see me doing it?
I see it emphasized over and over again in unschooling groups that
we model behavior, interests, etc. If I don't model an interest in
art, will my children, who may be naturally arty, lose that in
themselves?
"So ask yourself if you don't do those things simply because you have
zero interest in them, or if you don't do them because you're afraid
to explore them (or shut down to the idea of being artistic)."
(posted by Ren)
I don't recall any time feeling an interest in art that was
squashed. I honestly think I never really enjoyed it. Periodically
now, people try to expose me to art or music and I'm just not
interested. For several years now I've been searching for some art
to hang in my home to make it look more decorated. I can't find a
thing that I like enough to want to spend my money on. I don't buy
music CDs, either. I do remember doing Algebra with my dad when I
was very young and absolutely loving it. That's how we would pass
time during long car rides.:-)
JJ Ross
This thread got me thinking of the John Adams quote (are y'all
watching the McCollough HBO miniseries btw? My teens think it's
great!) about education across the generations, that it isn't so much
about modeling as making possible by what YOU do, the progress to the
next level of freedom and self-determination, for your children. Each
generation looks different if you're doing it right. :)
. Let me go see if I can find it:
"I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study
Mathematics and Philosophy. My sons ought to study Mathematics and
Philosophy, Geography, natural History, Naval Architecture,
navigation, Commerce and Agriculture, in order to give their Children
a right to study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary,
Tapestry and Porcelaine.
[This letter has not been dated precisely, but appears to have been
written after Adams's letter to his wife on May 12, and before one
written to her on May 15.]
Source: letter to Abigail Adams, after May 12, 1780.Adams Family
Correspondence, ed. L. H. Butterfield, vol. 3, p. 342 (1973).
watching the McCollough HBO miniseries btw? My teens think it's
great!) about education across the generations, that it isn't so much
about modeling as making possible by what YOU do, the progress to the
next level of freedom and self-determination, for your children. Each
generation looks different if you're doing it right. :)
. Let me go see if I can find it:
"I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study
Mathematics and Philosophy. My sons ought to study Mathematics and
Philosophy, Geography, natural History, Naval Architecture,
navigation, Commerce and Agriculture, in order to give their Children
a right to study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary,
Tapestry and Porcelaine.
[This letter has not been dated precisely, but appears to have been
written after Adams's letter to his wife on May 12, and before one
written to her on May 15.]
Source: letter to Abigail Adams, after May 12, 1780.Adams Family
Correspondence, ed. L. H. Butterfield, vol. 3, p. 342 (1973).
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
> Although modeling is HUGE, we all have interests that no one else in
> the family shares. How do you think that happens?
>
> The *key* is to honor passions even if it's not something we would
> choose.
>
> You consider yourself "un-artsy" (and I agree with Schuyler that
> biology IS art!), but that doesn't mean you can't fill your house with
> art supplies and take them out to play around with. Find the art in
> biology and play with THAT idea.
>
> We host house concerts, and one of the musical artists who has
> performed here is Marjorie Thompson, a biology professor at Brown. She
> has made (and sells) what she calls "biologically correct" art. <g> She
> also makes a working "biological clock." <G>
>
> http://www.mosugarmusic.com/jewelry/jewelry_purchase.htm
>
> Here's what she says about her "Cell Fun Jewelry"
>
> "Marjorie has been teaching Histology and Embryology to Biology
> students at Brown University since 1981. In 1990, she began crafting
> these "Biologically Correct" pins as a device for instruction, and with
> inspiration provided by design in nature. The line was later expanded
> to include Biological Clocks. She has a Certificate in Scientific
> Illustration from Rhode Island School of Design and has worked for
> decades as a freelance part time biomedical illustrator.
>
> "Items exhibit attention to detail including organelles and whole
> cell/structure morphology."
>
> I think they are a scream! Oh---and her music is fabulous too---and
> she's coming back to our house to perform in July. Everyone is welcome!
> <G>
>
> My husband is a "mathie" and sees the beauty in numbers. He LOVES
> patterns---and likes pointing out patterns that he sees *everywhere*!
> <G>
>
> Have you tried Artist Trading Cards? It's a wonderful way to be "artsy"
> and creative in a small way. You might find you really like that.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: keetry <keetry@...>
> >
> I agree with this and I guess that's why it concerns me. I don't do
> art. My children don't see me doing art. Therefore, am I indirectly
> influencing them away from art since they don't see me doing it?
>
> I see it emphasized over and over again in unschooling groups that
> we model behavior, interests, etc. If I don't model an interest in
> art, will my children, who may be naturally arty, lose that in
> themselves?
>
> "So ask yourself if you don't do those things simply because you have
> zero interest in them, or if you don't do them because you're afraid
> to explore them (or shut down to the idea of being artistic)."
> (posted by Ren)
>
> I don't recall any time feeling an interest in art that was
> squashed. I honestly think I never really enjoyed it. Periodically
> now, people try to expose me to art or music and I'm just not
> interested. For several years now I've been searching for some art
> to hang in my home to make it look more decorated. I can't find a
> thing that I like enough to want to spend my money on. I don't buy
> music CDs, either. I do remember doing Algebra with my dad when I
> was very young and absolutely loving it. That's how we would pass
> time during long car rides.:-)
>
keetry
Thanks to everyone. You have helped me see that I am doing what I
can to facilitate my children's interests. I do provide a lot of art
materials and my son does play with them when he wants. He painted a
beautiful painting of yellow the other day, his fave color. I guess
I was just feeling like that wasn't enough if I didn't do something
with the stuff on a regular basis. We listen to music in the car. We
have CDs at home that my son can listen to whenever he wants. He
loves to dance and I love watching him dance.
I'm slowly learning that I am creative in my thinking. I never
thought of myself as that way before but I'm pretty good at thinking
outside the box. It drives my husband batty, who does everything by
the book just because that's the way it's done. hehe
This has also got me thinking more about my interest in art. I do
remember hating school field trips to the Smithsonian art museum.
Somehow those trips took all the fun and enjoyment out of the art.
And, as if once wasn't bad enough, I think I had to go every year
from around 5th grade on. Art doesn't move me like it moves some
people. I took an art class in the 8th grade. I don't remember being
discouraged about my work. I vaguely remember that I did well in the
class. I do remember, though, that I found it very boring because it
was so techinical. I just wanted to paint a picture. I didn't want
to have to worry about shading and perspective.
I guess I'm not as limited as I thought.
Alysia
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
can to facilitate my children's interests. I do provide a lot of art
materials and my son does play with them when he wants. He painted a
beautiful painting of yellow the other day, his fave color. I guess
I was just feeling like that wasn't enough if I didn't do something
with the stuff on a regular basis. We listen to music in the car. We
have CDs at home that my son can listen to whenever he wants. He
loves to dance and I love watching him dance.
I'm slowly learning that I am creative in my thinking. I never
thought of myself as that way before but I'm pretty good at thinking
outside the box. It drives my husband batty, who does everything by
the book just because that's the way it's done. hehe
This has also got me thinking more about my interest in art. I do
remember hating school field trips to the Smithsonian art museum.
Somehow those trips took all the fun and enjoyment out of the art.
And, as if once wasn't bad enough, I think I had to go every year
from around 5th grade on. Art doesn't move me like it moves some
people. I took an art class in the 8th grade. I don't remember being
discouraged about my work. I vaguely remember that I did well in the
class. I do remember, though, that I found it very boring because it
was so techinical. I just wanted to paint a picture. I didn't want
to have to worry about shading and perspective.
I guess I'm not as limited as I thought.
Alysia
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>happened
> I'm a statistician and an economist. So is my husband.
>
> But our three kids are VERY "arty." I'm not sure how that
> other than that we really kept supplying them with materials,is
> experiences, encouragement to pursue their own interests, and that
> the direction their interests went.I
>
> We did have a LOT of materials around - tons of paper, markers,
> crayons, paints, chalk, brushes, scissors, yarn, string, hole
> punchers, popsicle sticks, fabric, thread, beads, needles, wooden
> thingies, buttons, glitter, glue guns, glue sticks, white glue,
> "stiffy" glue, and on and on and on. Lots of homemade playdough.
> don't think it mattered so much what the materials were - theywere
> always just things that we picked up at garage sales, thriftstores,
> or the art or craft stores. Wander around in Michaels or anothercraft
> store - if the kids are interested, they'll see "projects" theymight
> want to do. We kept lots of magazines around - they did a lot ofto
> collage-making while watching tv or listening to books on tape or
> music.crafts.
>
> It was all "free play" - we didn't do very many predetermined
> The kids "made messes" mostly! (That's from other peoples' pointsof
> view, not ours.) Most of those creative materials were alwaysoutdoors.
> available for them to use in their pretend play - indoors or
> Get some really good materials, too, for drawing and coloring andstuff -
> painting -- because there is a great joy in using high quality
> like PrismaColor colored pencils. They are expensive, so we tooklarge
> better care of them, the kids valued them and still have their
> boxes of PrismaColor pencils, used so much that they are only aninch
> or so long, now.stuff
>
> You could have fun looking through and ordering a lot of cool
> from the Dick Blick art supplies catalog.college
>
> When the kids were young, we went for very quick trips to lots of
> museums, art galleries, stopped by the art department at the
> where I teach, paused to look at paintings or photographs hangingin
> public places (like some MacDonalds have local artwork in them).and
>
> Roya (23) is an artist - ceramics, painting, drawing and she knits
> crochets - designs her own stuff. Roxana (20) doesn't createvisual
> art of her own, but she is in Paris for three months and has apass to
> the Louvre where she goes every time she has a spare couple ofhours.
> And I'm impressed by the artistry of the photographs she's beentaking
> while living in Europe. Rosie (17) makes latch-hook rugs - shebuys
> the kits. She also crochets and knits.go
>
> Plus - all three of them sing a lot. Roxana performs a lot in
> musicals. Rox and Rosie both are into dancing and acting, too. We
> to the theater a LOT.to
>
> None of the development of all this arty side of life required me
> teach them anything. It was all exposure and enjoyment and freeplay.
> When they got older - into their mid-teens, they started wantingmore
> formal experiences. Roya enrolled in a ceramics class at thecommunity
> college and continued with that for years. She joined a collegevocal
> ensemble and performed with them for a couple of years. Roxanaand
> Rosie take community college courses in musical theater, acting,up.
> dance, and technical theater like lighting design and stage make-
>
> -pam
keetry
Haha! Those pins are cool!
Alysia
Alysia
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
> > We host house concerts, and one of the musical artists who has
> performed here is Marjorie Thompson, a biology professor at Brown.
She
> has made (and sells) what she calls "biologically correct" art.
<g> She
> also makes a working "biological clock." <G>
>
> http://www.mosugarmusic.com/jewelry/jewelry_purchase.htm
>
> Here's what she says about her "Cell Fun Jewelry"
>
> "Marjorie has been teaching Histology and Embryology to Biology
> students at Brown University since 1981. In 1990, she began
crafting
> these "Biologically Correct" pins as a device for instruction, and
with
> inspiration provided by design in nature. The line was later
expanded
> to include Biological Clocks. She has a Certificate in Scientific
> Illustration from Rhode Island School of Design and has worked for
> decades as a freelance part time biomedical illustrator.
>
> "Items exhibit attention to detail including organelles and whole
> cell/structure morphology."
>
> I think they are a scream! Oh---and her music is fabulous too---
and
> she's coming back to our house to perform in July. Everyone is
welcome!
> <G>
diana jenner
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 2:26 PM, keetry <keetry@...> wrote:
I remember the *day* I decided I wasn't an artist. 1st grade (I can even
smell the classroom!) and we had Art class via television. You either kept
up or you didn't -- I didn't and I worked the next (too!) many years
supporting that kind of self-talk.
Then I questioned my own brains belief about myself. Challenged myself to
examine the Truths I was holding about mySelf. What if, just what *if* my
1st grade self was WRONG??
Turns out, I AM pretty creative!
I even have a painting (ala Bob Ross, complete with happy bushes) that will
go on display at our local coffee shop this summer :D
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> This has also got me thinking more about my interest in art. I doAnother example of Unschooling healing the parent ::g::
> remember hating school field trips to the Smithsonian art museum.
> Somehow those trips took all the fun and enjoyment out of the art.
> And, as if once wasn't bad enough, I think I had to go every year
> from around 5th grade on. Art doesn't move me like it moves some
> people. I took an art class in the 8th grade. I don't remember being
> discouraged about my work. I vaguely remember that I did well in the
> class. I do remember, though, that I found it very boring because it
> was so technical. I just wanted to paint a picture. I didn't want
> to have to worry about shading and perspective.
>
> I guess I'm not as limited as I thought.
>
>
>
>
I remember the *day* I decided I wasn't an artist. 1st grade (I can even
smell the classroom!) and we had Art class via television. You either kept
up or you didn't -- I didn't and I worked the next (too!) many years
supporting that kind of self-talk.
Then I questioned my own brains belief about myself. Challenged myself to
examine the Truths I was holding about mySelf. What if, just what *if* my
1st grade self was WRONG??
Turns out, I AM pretty creative!
I even have a painting (ala Bob Ross, complete with happy bushes) that will
go on display at our local coffee shop this summer :D
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I'm running way behind because my laptop has been in the hospital at the mall, and I'm using my son's which is waaaay out of my comfort zone (his preferences definitely reflect that we use different parts of the brain to process lol!)
But I wanted to address this because I really identified with your concerns. But I also have so much evidence that your concerns are unfounded. I have seven kids and every single one has such radically different interests. I spend all my spare time reading. I'm not an artistic person, per se (although thanks to Ren I love ATCs lol) and my eight year old is a fantastic, immersed artist. She started so young experimenting with colors and perspectives. Because of those interests, I've got to art galleries and museums and such, spending time with her. Emily LOVES to sew, and spends her time comparing fabrics and colors and sewing shapes to see what the 3D creates. I have NO idea where they get this....I've sewn, sure, but one year decided my girls needed matching Easter dresses, and never sewed since. So I'm definitely NOT modeling these interests, BUT I am aware of their interests and strew to ensure they feel supported in them.
Anyway, got to give the laptop back to the boy, so I'll sign off now. Tomorrow morning I'm getting up early to get mine back YAY!
Melissa
---- keetry <keetry@...> wrote:
But I wanted to address this because I really identified with your concerns. But I also have so much evidence that your concerns are unfounded. I have seven kids and every single one has such radically different interests. I spend all my spare time reading. I'm not an artistic person, per se (although thanks to Ren I love ATCs lol) and my eight year old is a fantastic, immersed artist. She started so young experimenting with colors and perspectives. Because of those interests, I've got to art galleries and museums and such, spending time with her. Emily LOVES to sew, and spends her time comparing fabrics and colors and sewing shapes to see what the 3D creates. I have NO idea where they get this....I've sewn, sure, but one year decided my girls needed matching Easter dresses, and never sewed since. So I'm definitely NOT modeling these interests, BUT I am aware of their interests and strew to ensure they feel supported in them.
Anyway, got to give the laptop back to the boy, so I'll sign off now. Tomorrow morning I'm getting up early to get mine back YAY!
Melissa
---- keetry <keetry@...> wrote:
> >
> I agree with this and I guess that's why it concerns me. I don't do
> art. My children don't see me doing art. Therefore, am I indirectly
> influencing them away from art since they don't see me doing it?
>
> I see it emphasized over and over again in unschooling groups that
> we model behavior, interests, etc. If I don't model an interest in
> art, will my children, who may be naturally arty, lose that in
> themselves
Ren Allen
~~I guess
I was just feeling like that wasn't enough if I didn't do something
with the stuff on a regular basis.~~
I've considered myself to be an artist for most of my life and we
certainly don't do anything on a regular basis!!:)
Unschooling can help us let go of that "not-doing-enough" syndrome.
When that feeling rises up it's a good chance to examine whether we
need to infuse our days with something new, or if it's just old
baggage clinging desperately.
That's one thing I love about keeping a blog. Anytime I feel that "not
enough" crap I just go skim the blog for a month back and suddenly I
realize that even with all our hanging-out-watching-American-Idol
nights we are still doing a LOT.
Ebb and tide, flow and pulse. That's how it goes.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
I was just feeling like that wasn't enough if I didn't do something
with the stuff on a regular basis.~~
I've considered myself to be an artist for most of my life and we
certainly don't do anything on a regular basis!!:)
Unschooling can help us let go of that "not-doing-enough" syndrome.
When that feeling rises up it's a good chance to examine whether we
need to infuse our days with something new, or if it's just old
baggage clinging desperately.
That's one thing I love about keeping a blog. Anytime I feel that "not
enough" crap I just go skim the blog for a month back and suddenly I
realize that even with all our hanging-out-watching-American-Idol
nights we are still doing a LOT.
Ebb and tide, flow and pulse. That's how it goes.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Lisa
Ok on the subject of art and creativity.... two of my kids are VERY
skilled at drawing.... no one "taught" them to draw... they didn't
have lessons except for the older one having a few formal lessons
which she hated and the tiny bit of art that a kid gets at school in K
and 1st grades. When the art lessons we were getting started
frustrating her we quit ( about 4 weeks in!) Ok so flash forward now
she is almost 15... the other kiddo that draws is almost 13.... both
REALLY talented. Every person that sees them drawing or sees their
drawings comments on how well they draw.
I am happy to supply them with papers, pens, pencils and every other
art supply under the sun as I have done their entire lives. The
thing I get really sick of is the constant nagging by other people
that they should take formal lessons! My response is usually that
they developed to the point they are on their own (they occasionally
ask for technique books and so forth), neither has ever asked for
lessons or formal instruction...if they did I would provide it, and
frankly I think that sometimes natural talent or aptitude is damaged
by "lessons". The constant need that some people seem to have to
"improve" on everything really boggles me. Both kids are happy with
their skill, they are not frustrated and they get so much pleasure and
joy from their artwork I don't see why that isn't enough for the world!
My oldest was told in school that she was not "artistic" (her
teacher's passion was drawing which my younger daughter excelled in)
it took years at home for her to discover she has a talent for
sculpting and for other types of art...jewelry, sewing, clothing
design etc. Our youngest, the only boy, is very creative but in a
very different way...he builds all sorts of things with legos, knex,
tinker toys etc... everything he builds has to "do something", has to
be symmetrical etc ... it's all very mathematical.
Anyway I am always surprised by the types of people who say they
aren't creative but then show some amazing wit for jokes or
impressions, draw or doodle with great skill or write computer
programs and such. I think there is amazing creativity in lots of
things that aren't appreciated by alot of folks because they don't fit
some preconceived notion of what creativity or art is.
Interesting discussion!
Lisa Blocker
skilled at drawing.... no one "taught" them to draw... they didn't
have lessons except for the older one having a few formal lessons
which she hated and the tiny bit of art that a kid gets at school in K
and 1st grades. When the art lessons we were getting started
frustrating her we quit ( about 4 weeks in!) Ok so flash forward now
she is almost 15... the other kiddo that draws is almost 13.... both
REALLY talented. Every person that sees them drawing or sees their
drawings comments on how well they draw.
I am happy to supply them with papers, pens, pencils and every other
art supply under the sun as I have done their entire lives. The
thing I get really sick of is the constant nagging by other people
that they should take formal lessons! My response is usually that
they developed to the point they are on their own (they occasionally
ask for technique books and so forth), neither has ever asked for
lessons or formal instruction...if they did I would provide it, and
frankly I think that sometimes natural talent or aptitude is damaged
by "lessons". The constant need that some people seem to have to
"improve" on everything really boggles me. Both kids are happy with
their skill, they are not frustrated and they get so much pleasure and
joy from their artwork I don't see why that isn't enough for the world!
My oldest was told in school that she was not "artistic" (her
teacher's passion was drawing which my younger daughter excelled in)
it took years at home for her to discover she has a talent for
sculpting and for other types of art...jewelry, sewing, clothing
design etc. Our youngest, the only boy, is very creative but in a
very different way...he builds all sorts of things with legos, knex,
tinker toys etc... everything he builds has to "do something", has to
be symmetrical etc ... it's all very mathematical.
Anyway I am always surprised by the types of people who say they
aren't creative but then show some amazing wit for jokes or
impressions, draw or doodle with great skill or write computer
programs and such. I think there is amazing creativity in lots of
things that aren't appreciated by alot of folks because they don't fit
some preconceived notion of what creativity or art is.
Interesting discussion!
Lisa Blocker
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: keetry <keetry@...>
This has also got me thinking more about my interest in art. I do
remember hating school field trips to the Smithsonian art museum.
Somehow those trips took all the fun and enjoyment out of the art.
And, as if once wasn't bad enough, I think I had to go every year
from around 5th grade on.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Yeah---don't do that.
Parents do it all the time, just as your school did. They want to
expose their kids to art or science or ---whatever, so they pack up and
pay to go to the place only to find that not everyone is having the
time of their lives. They persevere because they paid for the ticket
(and museum. zoo prices in many places have gone through the roof!) and
they feel the need to get their money's worth. So children are
d-r-a-g-g-e-d through the museum, barely looking. Or *mom* is
fascinated and wants to look at and read each and every plaque (that's
ME! <g>), so the kids have to stay with her while she piddles.
Better to get a family pass and go for 20-30 minutes and leave while
it's still an interesting place. Better for mom to come back *by
herself* and spend hours reading all the plaques.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Art doesn't move me like it moves some
people. I took an art class in the 8th grade. I don't remember being
discouraged about my work.
-=-=-=-=-=
I remember being *good*, so I was given special "art lessons" at the
art museum. I wanted to scream, "I HATE PEARS!" Why do "art teachers"
feel the need to make children draw picture after picture of PEARS???
I learned to hate art class. I knew *I* would never torture my kids
like that.
-=-=-=-=-=-=
I vaguely remember that I did well in the
class. I do remember, though, that I found it very boring because it
was so techinical. I just wanted to paint a picture. I didn't want
to have to worry about shading and perspective.
-=-=-=-=-=
Poetry.
Teachers can suck the very life out of a poem by analyzing the damned
thing to death.
I couldn't understand why we couldn't just ENJOY the poem.
I can't understand why we can't just ENJOY art.
Why do we have to analyze and "understand" things? Why isn't it OK just
to *like* something....just because?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I guess I'm not as limited as I thought.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Of COURSE not!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: keetry <keetry@...>
This has also got me thinking more about my interest in art. I do
remember hating school field trips to the Smithsonian art museum.
Somehow those trips took all the fun and enjoyment out of the art.
And, as if once wasn't bad enough, I think I had to go every year
from around 5th grade on.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Yeah---don't do that.
Parents do it all the time, just as your school did. They want to
expose their kids to art or science or ---whatever, so they pack up and
pay to go to the place only to find that not everyone is having the
time of their lives. They persevere because they paid for the ticket
(and museum. zoo prices in many places have gone through the roof!) and
they feel the need to get their money's worth. So children are
d-r-a-g-g-e-d through the museum, barely looking. Or *mom* is
fascinated and wants to look at and read each and every plaque (that's
ME! <g>), so the kids have to stay with her while she piddles.
Better to get a family pass and go for 20-30 minutes and leave while
it's still an interesting place. Better for mom to come back *by
herself* and spend hours reading all the plaques.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Art doesn't move me like it moves some
people. I took an art class in the 8th grade. I don't remember being
discouraged about my work.
-=-=-=-=-=
I remember being *good*, so I was given special "art lessons" at the
art museum. I wanted to scream, "I HATE PEARS!" Why do "art teachers"
feel the need to make children draw picture after picture of PEARS???
I learned to hate art class. I knew *I* would never torture my kids
like that.
-=-=-=-=-=-=
I vaguely remember that I did well in the
class. I do remember, though, that I found it very boring because it
was so techinical. I just wanted to paint a picture. I didn't want
to have to worry about shading and perspective.
-=-=-=-=-=
Poetry.
Teachers can suck the very life out of a poem by analyzing the damned
thing to death.
I couldn't understand why we couldn't just ENJOY the poem.
I can't understand why we can't just ENJOY art.
Why do we have to analyze and "understand" things? Why isn't it OK just
to *like* something....just because?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I guess I'm not as limited as I thought.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Of COURSE not!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
kel9769
. I think maybe I'm
I am right there in the non crafty boat with you. Liz is very
interested in all things crafty and I do my best to support those
interests. When she was small I would go with her to craft events and
do my best. She also spent a lot of time with my sister and in the
craft & sewing groups at Girls Inc. Now that she's a teen my support
is mostly financial & transportation. Last night we started working
on cross stitch projects together. That is the only craft I have ever
enjoyed. Liz tried it before and was frustrated with it. Maybe now
it will be something we can enjoy together. I do consider myself to
be creative of thought. I can see a lot of options and tend to think
outside the box. I think this trait is very common with unschooling
parents, perhaps even universal. Being creative means more than being
crafty or artistic or even having an interest in those things. It
being able to see a way to support interests in your children that are
not your own.
Kelly
> worried that my children will be at a disadvantage for unschoolingHi ALyisa
> with such an uncreative mother.
>
> Alysia
I am right there in the non crafty boat with you. Liz is very
interested in all things crafty and I do my best to support those
interests. When she was small I would go with her to craft events and
do my best. She also spent a lot of time with my sister and in the
craft & sewing groups at Girls Inc. Now that she's a teen my support
is mostly financial & transportation. Last night we started working
on cross stitch projects together. That is the only craft I have ever
enjoyed. Liz tried it before and was frustrated with it. Maybe now
it will be something we can enjoy together. I do consider myself to
be creative of thought. I can see a lot of options and tend to think
outside the box. I think this trait is very common with unschooling
parents, perhaps even universal. Being creative means more than being
crafty or artistic or even having an interest in those things. It
being able to see a way to support interests in your children that are
not your own.
Kelly
>
Ren Allen
>Yet she makes really cool and beautiful ATC's (and other art) today!:)
> I learned to hate art class. ~~
> Poetry.thing to death.~~
>Teachers can suck the very life out of a poem by analyzing the damned
Or by forcing people to write poetry. Ugh.
I'll never forget chatting with a homeschooling Mum back in P'cola
when we first moved there. She was bragging about some poems her dd
had written and I said "wow, it's really cool that she loves writing
poetry"
The response? "Oh, she doesn't, she hates it! I have to make her do it"
Blech, ptooey, yuck.
Even before my radical unschooling journey, I KNEW that was a really
yucky thing to do and I never wanted my kids to learn to hate poetry
because of ME. I made my two older ones hate chores pretty good though.;)
I remember having this really sad feeling because the poor kid should
not have been writing poems if she hated it. Defeats the entire
purpose of poetry all together.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
keetry
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
Smithsonian. I soooooooo wanted to go to the Museum of Natural
History (being a biologist and all). Every time we ended up at the
Air and Space Museum. YUCK! That was where ds wanted to go, though.
He loved that place. When we were up there visiting my mom a few
weeks ago we took my 4yo to the Smithsonian and finally I got to go
where I wanted to go. He's very interested in dinosaurs right now so
he loved it, too. We all had a great time and ds got to ride the
carousel on the Mall with Grandma afterward.
Alysia
>up and
>
> Parents do it all the time, just as your school did. They want to
> expose their kids to art or science or ---whatever, so they pack
> pay to go to the place only to find that not everyone is havingthe
> time of their lives. They persevere because they paid for theticket
> (and museum. zoo prices in many places have gone through theroof!) and
> they feel the need to get their money's worth. So children are(that's
> d-r-a-g-g-e-d through the museum, barely looking. Or *mom* is
> fascinated and wants to look at and read each and every plaque
> ME! <g>), so the kids have to stay with her while she piddles.When we lived near DC we would take our then 8-11yo son to the
Smithsonian. I soooooooo wanted to go to the Museum of Natural
History (being a biologist and all). Every time we ended up at the
Air and Space Museum. YUCK! That was where ds wanted to go, though.
He loved that place. When we were up there visiting my mom a few
weeks ago we took my 4yo to the Smithsonian and finally I got to go
where I wanted to go. He's very interested in dinosaurs right now so
he loved it, too. We all had a great time and ds got to ride the
carousel on the Mall with Grandma afterward.
>damned
> Teachers can suck the very life out of a poem by analyzing the
> thing to death.just
>
> I couldn't understand why we couldn't just ENJOY the poem.
>
> I can't understand why we can't just ENJOY art.
>
> Why do we have to analyze and "understand" things? Why isn't it OK
> to *like* something....just because?So very true.
>
Alysia