Do neural pathways close?
hbmccarty
A homeschooling parent and former teacher told me today that children
must learn skip counting or multiplication by age 12 or the neural
pathways that allow this will close as an explanation of why children
must be forced to learn. This seemed completely absurd, but of course I
didn't have the right thing to say at the moment.
My google search turned up this article
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/33/38811529.pdf , which seems to refute
her statement, as well as having some other quite interesting
information about learning.
I have emailed my cousin who works in this field to check for the most
up to date info before I forward to our local list but thought I would
also consult the real experts on children and learning.
thanks!
Heather McCarty
must learn skip counting or multiplication by age 12 or the neural
pathways that allow this will close as an explanation of why children
must be forced to learn. This seemed completely absurd, but of course I
didn't have the right thing to say at the moment.
My google search turned up this article
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/33/38811529.pdf , which seems to refute
her statement, as well as having some other quite interesting
information about learning.
I have emailed my cousin who works in this field to check for the most
up to date info before I forward to our local list but thought I would
also consult the real experts on children and learning.
thanks!
Heather McCarty
Erin Crouchman
The introduction to math needs to occur in the preschool years when the developing brain is actively pruning "unused" synapses. This pruning stops at about age 5 and then by mid-adolescence, mylenation (coating of the synapses to make the connections quicker) is said to slow. With a solid foundation, the brain can continue to learn heirarchical math. It gets more and more difficult for the brain to learn this kind of processing as one ages without any previous mathematical learning.
Hope that helps.
hbmccarty <hbmccarty@...> wrote:
A homeschooling parent and former teacher told me today that children
must learn skip counting or multiplication by age 12 or the neural
pathways that allow this will close as an explanation of why children
must be forced to learn. This seemed completely absurd, but of course I
didn't have the right thing to say at the moment.
My google search turned up this article
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/33/38811529.pdf , which seems to refute
her statement, as well as having some other quite interesting
information about learning.
I have emailed my cousin who works in this field to check for the most
up to date info before I forward to our local list but thought I would
also consult the real experts on children and learning.
thanks!
Heather McCarty
---------------------------------
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hope that helps.
hbmccarty <hbmccarty@...> wrote:
A homeschooling parent and former teacher told me today that children
must learn skip counting or multiplication by age 12 or the neural
pathways that allow this will close as an explanation of why children
must be forced to learn. This seemed completely absurd, but of course I
didn't have the right thing to say at the moment.
My google search turned up this article
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/33/38811529.pdf , which seems to refute
her statement, as well as having some other quite interesting
information about learning.
I have emailed my cousin who works in this field to check for the most
up to date info before I forward to our local list but thought I would
also consult the real experts on children and learning.
thanks!
Heather McCarty
---------------------------------
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
-~~A homeschooling parent and former teacher told me today that
children must learn skip counting or multiplication by age 12 or the
neural pathways that allow this will close as an explanation of why
children must be forced to learn. ~~
Total and complete bullshit.
If you think about what they call "multiplication" in school, it is
simply memorization of facts. That isn't anything you need to learn at
any age. Ever. It's more convenient but memorization isn't exactly a
skill that you need by a certain age.
REAL multiplication is used all the time, when we use money or cook or
grow gardens.... the unschooled brain is exposed to the situations in
which it can use those skills all the time! If your child is living
and having fun, they are using numbers and learning multiplication.
Real math is in the doing, in the using of numbers and learning to
manipulate them. It has NOTHING to do with the equations on paper.
That's just how we communicate math concepts. A person can learn THAT
part anytime in life.
Skip counting?? Whoop-te-do! Who cares...seriously. I bet they'd say
you have to learn how to tie your shoes by a certain age or you'll
never learn. I bet they'd say a person who didn't read by a certain
age would have issues their entire life. They should meet my 14 year
old who would disprove THAT idea (he learned to read after 12).
Our society has a lot of fear tied up into learning things early. Like
earlier is better somehow. The mind that is nurtured and healthy, the
mind that is exposed to ideas and places and people and given freedom
to dream, THAT mind can learn whatever it needs whenever it needs the
information or skill.
I say "pppphhhhhffffttttt" to the very mistaken notion that we need to
learn anything by any certain age.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
children must learn skip counting or multiplication by age 12 or the
neural pathways that allow this will close as an explanation of why
children must be forced to learn. ~~
Total and complete bullshit.
If you think about what they call "multiplication" in school, it is
simply memorization of facts. That isn't anything you need to learn at
any age. Ever. It's more convenient but memorization isn't exactly a
skill that you need by a certain age.
REAL multiplication is used all the time, when we use money or cook or
grow gardens.... the unschooled brain is exposed to the situations in
which it can use those skills all the time! If your child is living
and having fun, they are using numbers and learning multiplication.
Real math is in the doing, in the using of numbers and learning to
manipulate them. It has NOTHING to do with the equations on paper.
That's just how we communicate math concepts. A person can learn THAT
part anytime in life.
Skip counting?? Whoop-te-do! Who cares...seriously. I bet they'd say
you have to learn how to tie your shoes by a certain age or you'll
never learn. I bet they'd say a person who didn't read by a certain
age would have issues their entire life. They should meet my 14 year
old who would disprove THAT idea (he learned to read after 12).
Our society has a lot of fear tied up into learning things early. Like
earlier is better somehow. The mind that is nurtured and healthy, the
mind that is exposed to ideas and places and people and given freedom
to dream, THAT mind can learn whatever it needs whenever it needs the
information or skill.
I say "pppphhhhhffffttttt" to the very mistaken notion that we need to
learn anything by any certain age.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~It gets more and more difficult for the brain to learn this kind of
processing as one ages without any previous mathematical learning.~~
What do you mean by "mathematical learning"? Because if you're talking
about the equations on paper, then I say BALONEY. A human being
exposed to LIFE is gaining "mathematical learning" even when it
doesn't look like it. Without a single math lesson of any kind, ever,
my children have picked up mathematical concepts with ease. So I ask
for clarification on the above statement because the kind of "math"
they do in school (or in prescribed lessons of any kind) is NOT
necessary for the brain to learn that kind of processing.
In fact, I think it's harmful to the brain's very natural way of
processing numbers.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
processing as one ages without any previous mathematical learning.~~
What do you mean by "mathematical learning"? Because if you're talking
about the equations on paper, then I say BALONEY. A human being
exposed to LIFE is gaining "mathematical learning" even when it
doesn't look like it. Without a single math lesson of any kind, ever,
my children have picked up mathematical concepts with ease. So I ask
for clarification on the above statement because the kind of "math"
they do in school (or in prescribed lessons of any kind) is NOT
necessary for the brain to learn that kind of processing.
In fact, I think it's harmful to the brain's very natural way of
processing numbers.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Melissa Gray
Okay article, it states that there are optimal times for learning
certain things, but does emphasize plasticity of learning...which is
sooo important. Optimal is key.
Having a child with developmental disabilities, I heard a lot of "IF
they don't learn it by age X, they'll never learn it" or "If you
don't teach Y, they will never learn to Z". Breanna has continued to
amaze professionals everywhere, because she is not learning these
things according to some artificial timeline, she is learning it on
hers. It's just as effective, but it's based on strategy, rather than
rote learning (which is something else that the article brings up) I
have kids who are completely neurotypical, learning on their own time
line, and seem to be doing really well. Emily never wanted to learn
skip counting, but figured out multiplication in one day. Weeks later
she'd figured out basic algebraic concepts by herself.
By saying that if a child doesn't learn by a certain age, that they
will never learn, she is dismissing thousands of disabled children
who learn, people who suffer from traumatic brain injuries and
actually develop BRAND NEW NEURAL circuits to perform these tasks, as
well as children who just learn differently but are stuck in a
schooly environment that tells them they are broken. Ick.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
certain things, but does emphasize plasticity of learning...which is
sooo important. Optimal is key.
Having a child with developmental disabilities, I heard a lot of "IF
they don't learn it by age X, they'll never learn it" or "If you
don't teach Y, they will never learn to Z". Breanna has continued to
amaze professionals everywhere, because she is not learning these
things according to some artificial timeline, she is learning it on
hers. It's just as effective, but it's based on strategy, rather than
rote learning (which is something else that the article brings up) I
have kids who are completely neurotypical, learning on their own time
line, and seem to be doing really well. Emily never wanted to learn
skip counting, but figured out multiplication in one day. Weeks later
she'd figured out basic algebraic concepts by herself.
By saying that if a child doesn't learn by a certain age, that they
will never learn, she is dismissing thousands of disabled children
who learn, people who suffer from traumatic brain injuries and
actually develop BRAND NEW NEURAL circuits to perform these tasks, as
well as children who just learn differently but are stuck in a
schooly environment that tells them they are broken. Ick.
Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane
blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
On Mar 4, 2008, at 8:30 PM, hbmccarty wrote:
> A homeschooling parent and former teacher told me today that children
> must learn skip counting or multiplication by age 12 or the neural
> pathways that allow this will close as an explanation of why children
> must be forced to learn. This seemed completely absurd, but of
> course I
> didn't have the right thing to say at the moment.
>
> My google search turned up this article
> http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/33/38811529.pdf , which seems to
> refute
> her statement, as well as having some other quite interesting
> information about learning.
>
> I have emailed my cousin who works in this field to check for the most
> up to date info before I forward to our local list but thought I would
> also consult the real experts on children and learning.
>
> thanks!
>
> Heather McCarty
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
My husband coaches athletes (specifically race car drivers) and
particularly addresses brain function and learning in his seminars. I
asked him, since one of his passions is how the brain works. This is
what he wrote:
"I don't have anything that specifically deals with skip counting (I'm
assuming she's talking about counting by 2s or 5s) or multiplication.
But, if you read the book 'The Brain That Changes Itself' (and watch
'The Brain Fitness Program' that was on PBS tonight), it pretty much
says that any talk about how our brains are hardwired at any point in
life is not true. The research mentioned in the book talks about how
we can learn pretty much anything at any time in our lives, and that
our brains are extremely plastic. Again, it doesn't talk specifically
about counting and multiplication, but that was certainly my take-away
from the research discussed in the book.
Personally, in about 5 minutes during an Inner Speed Secrets seminar,
I've coached a middle-aged man to count backwards from 100 by 7s. If
these people can learn to do that at 50 years old, why can't a teen
learn to count by 5s, or 10s, or 2s, or to memorize multiplication
tables (which is what most are really doing, right? They are just
memorizing them - not learning what they mean).
Those are my thoughts. No research to back up my opinions, though. But
that book might provide some insight. If the question is, "Do neural
pathways close?" then I know the answer is a big fat NO."
Robin B.
particularly addresses brain function and learning in his seminars. I
asked him, since one of his passions is how the brain works. This is
what he wrote:
"I don't have anything that specifically deals with skip counting (I'm
assuming she's talking about counting by 2s or 5s) or multiplication.
But, if you read the book 'The Brain That Changes Itself' (and watch
'The Brain Fitness Program' that was on PBS tonight), it pretty much
says that any talk about how our brains are hardwired at any point in
life is not true. The research mentioned in the book talks about how
we can learn pretty much anything at any time in our lives, and that
our brains are extremely plastic. Again, it doesn't talk specifically
about counting and multiplication, but that was certainly my take-away
from the research discussed in the book.
Personally, in about 5 minutes during an Inner Speed Secrets seminar,
I've coached a middle-aged man to count backwards from 100 by 7s. If
these people can learn to do that at 50 years old, why can't a teen
learn to count by 5s, or 10s, or 2s, or to memorize multiplication
tables (which is what most are really doing, right? They are just
memorizing them - not learning what they mean).
Those are my thoughts. No research to back up my opinions, though. But
that book might provide some insight. If the question is, "Do neural
pathways close?" then I know the answer is a big fat NO."
Robin B.
On Mar 4, 2008, at 6:30 PM, hbmccarty wrote:
> A homeschooling parent and former teacher told me today that children
> must learn skip counting or multiplication by age 12 or the neural
> pathways that allow this will close as an explanation of why children
> must be forced to learn. This seemed completely absurd, but of
> course I
> didn't have the right thing to say at the moment.
>
> My google search turned up this article
> http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/33/38811529.pdf , which seems to
> refute
> her statement, as well as having some other quite interesting
> information about learning.
>
> I have emailed my cousin who works in this field to check for the most
> up to date info before I forward to our local list but thought I would
> also consult the real experts on children and learning.
>
> thanks!
>
> Heather McCarty
>
Jodi Bezzola
It really continues to blow my mind how those with a vested interest (and payoff), think it's okay to make stuff up to give credence to all the bullshit theories that fly around about the way we learn. We - I mean they - are *so* brainwashed in this culture! I am oh so grateful to be aligned with the 'real experts on children and learning'! Thanks y'all :)
Jodi
Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
My husband coaches athletes (specifically race car drivers) and
particularly addresses brain function and learning in his seminars. I
asked him, since one of his passions is how the brain works. This is
what he wrote:
"I don't have anything that specifically deals with skip counting (I'm
assuming she's talking about counting by 2s or 5s) or multiplication.
But, if you read the book 'The Brain That Changes Itself' (and watch
'The Brain Fitness Program' that was on PBS tonight), it pretty much
says that any talk about how our brains are hardwired at any point in
life is not true. The research mentioned in the book talks about how
we can learn pretty much anything at any time in our lives, and that
our brains are extremely plastic. Again, it doesn't talk specifically
about counting and multiplication, but that was certainly my take-away
from the research discussed in the book.
Personally, in about 5 minutes during an Inner Speed Secrets seminar,
I've coached a middle-aged man to count backwards from 100 by 7s. If
these people can learn to do that at 50 years old, why can't a teen
learn to count by 5s, or 10s, or 2s, or to memorize multiplication
tables (which is what most are really doing, right? They are just
memorizing them - not learning what they mean).
Those are my thoughts. No research to back up my opinions, though. But
that book might provide some insight. If the question is, "Do neural
pathways close?" then I know the answer is a big fat NO."
Robin B.
Jodi
Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
My husband coaches athletes (specifically race car drivers) and
particularly addresses brain function and learning in his seminars. I
asked him, since one of his passions is how the brain works. This is
what he wrote:
"I don't have anything that specifically deals with skip counting (I'm
assuming she's talking about counting by 2s or 5s) or multiplication.
But, if you read the book 'The Brain That Changes Itself' (and watch
'The Brain Fitness Program' that was on PBS tonight), it pretty much
says that any talk about how our brains are hardwired at any point in
life is not true. The research mentioned in the book talks about how
we can learn pretty much anything at any time in our lives, and that
our brains are extremely plastic. Again, it doesn't talk specifically
about counting and multiplication, but that was certainly my take-away
from the research discussed in the book.
Personally, in about 5 minutes during an Inner Speed Secrets seminar,
I've coached a middle-aged man to count backwards from 100 by 7s. If
these people can learn to do that at 50 years old, why can't a teen
learn to count by 5s, or 10s, or 2s, or to memorize multiplication
tables (which is what most are really doing, right? They are just
memorizing them - not learning what they mean).
Those are my thoughts. No research to back up my opinions, though. But
that book might provide some insight. If the question is, "Do neural
pathways close?" then I know the answer is a big fat NO."
Robin B.
On Mar 4, 2008, at 6:30 PM, hbmccarty wrote:
> A homeschooling parent and former teacher told me today that children
> must learn skip counting or multiplication by age 12 or the neural
> pathways that allow this will close as an explanation of why children
> must be forced to learn. This seemed completely absurd, but of
> course I
> didn't have the right thing to say at the moment.
>
> My google search turned up this article
> http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/33/38811529.pdf , which seems to
> refute
> her statement, as well as having some other quite interesting
> information about learning.
>
> I have emailed my cousin who works in this field to check for the most
> up to date info before I forward to our local list but thought I would
> also consult the real experts on children and learning.
>
> thanks!
>
> Heather McCarty
>
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 7:23 PM, Erin Crouchman <ecrouchm@...> wrote:
*anyone* being able to go through the first many years of life, in a rich,
joyful, unschooling environment, never being exposed to the reality of
numbers and their meaningful manipulation -- as it directly applies to their
lives!! (H began receiving a stipend at age 4 and could figure out 10%
discounts and 6% tax by age 5 -- it was his money, this was important
stuff!!)
Math, as in the ruination of the joy of number manipulation by school
systems, is absolutely unnecessary!
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The introduction to math needs to occur in the preschool years when theExposure to numbers in everyday life? Absolutely! I can't imagine, though,
> developing brain is actively pruning "unused" synapses. This pruning stops
> at about age 5 and then by mid-adolescence, mylenation (coating of the
> synapses to make the connections quicker) is said to slow. With a solid
> foundation, the brain can continue to learn heirarchical math. It gets more
> and more difficult for the brain to learn this kind of processing as one
> ages without any previous mathematical learning.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
>
>
>
*anyone* being able to go through the first many years of life, in a rich,
joyful, unschooling environment, never being exposed to the reality of
numbers and their meaningful manipulation -- as it directly applies to their
lives!! (H began receiving a stipend at age 4 and could figure out 10%
discounts and 6% tax by age 5 -- it was his money, this was important
stuff!!)
Math, as in the ruination of the joy of number manipulation by school
systems, is absolutely unnecessary!
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa
OK if this were true how would she explain how people with traumatic
brain injuries "relearn" how to walk, talk, speak, resume their lives
and jobs etc??? I think the brain is way more malleable than we ever
give it credit for! I also have a special needs child with
significant language issues who at almost 13 continues to learn new
concepts every day through her daily life. Yes some things are more
directly presented to her but most things are because she's asked what
this or that is called or what it does etc. She also recently
presented to me this cool thing she had figured out.... if you count
"nickels" you can tell time... hmmmmm sounds like her neural pathways
are doing just fine! (By the way this child on MRI shows a smaller
than "normal" hippocampus(long term memory and spatial reasoning) and
cerebellum (motor control and sensory perception). At age 4 we were
told by the school system she was "hopeless". For the record she's
also an AMAZING artist... without a single art lesson.
Sounds like the education crowd has found another scare tactic to
justify parents paying a zillion dollars to tutoring companies and
educational "specialists" !
Lisa Blocker
brain injuries "relearn" how to walk, talk, speak, resume their lives
and jobs etc??? I think the brain is way more malleable than we ever
give it credit for! I also have a special needs child with
significant language issues who at almost 13 continues to learn new
concepts every day through her daily life. Yes some things are more
directly presented to her but most things are because she's asked what
this or that is called or what it does etc. She also recently
presented to me this cool thing she had figured out.... if you count
"nickels" you can tell time... hmmmmm sounds like her neural pathways
are doing just fine! (By the way this child on MRI shows a smaller
than "normal" hippocampus(long term memory and spatial reasoning) and
cerebellum (motor control and sensory perception). At age 4 we were
told by the school system she was "hopeless". For the record she's
also an AMAZING artist... without a single art lesson.
Sounds like the education crowd has found another scare tactic to
justify parents paying a zillion dollars to tutoring companies and
educational "specialists" !
Lisa Blocker
>
> > A homeschooling parent and former teacher told me today that children
> > must learn skip counting or multiplication by age 12 or the neural
> > pathways that allow this will close as an explanation of why children
> > must be forced to learn. This seemed completely absurd, but of
> > course I
> > didn't have the right thing to say at the moment.
> >
> > My google search turned up this article
> > http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/33/38811529.pdf , which seems to
> > refute
> > her statement, as well as having some other quite interesting
> > information about learning.
> >
> > I have emailed my cousin who works in this field to check for the most
> > up to date info before I forward to our local list but thought I would
> > also consult the real experts on children and learning.
> >
> > thanks!
> >
> > Heather McCarty
> >
>
trektheory
Well, we learn things differently at different ages. That you can
never learn them after a certain age? Strikes me as misinterpreting
information.
Think of it this way -- everyone pretty much agrees that young
children are wired to learn languages, and so many introduce many
languages to their young children, to help them have a leg up on that.
Does that mean that after a certain age, you can't learn a new
language? Of course not! My bil and sil learned Swedish and Greek
before assignments in those countries. They were adults.
And one nephew learned Spanish young -- and lost it all from disuse.
My ds is 16, and learning French -- and acing the class, taking the
language labs that best help him learn to hear and speak it, and is
thinking some in French. (It annoyed him at first, but now he's used
to it.)
I once tutored a girl who had learned her math facts for school --
then, a few years later, was working to get back up to speed for
another school, and had forgotten them. I just had her make a chart
to refer to when she needed it -- and they came back in no time. I
never once drilled her in it. If that had been a critical make or
break time for memorizing multiplication facts, she would have
remembered in the first place!
Linda
never learn them after a certain age? Strikes me as misinterpreting
information.
Think of it this way -- everyone pretty much agrees that young
children are wired to learn languages, and so many introduce many
languages to their young children, to help them have a leg up on that.
Does that mean that after a certain age, you can't learn a new
language? Of course not! My bil and sil learned Swedish and Greek
before assignments in those countries. They were adults.
And one nephew learned Spanish young -- and lost it all from disuse.
My ds is 16, and learning French -- and acing the class, taking the
language labs that best help him learn to hear and speak it, and is
thinking some in French. (It annoyed him at first, but now he's used
to it.)
I once tutored a girl who had learned her math facts for school --
then, a few years later, was working to get back up to speed for
another school, and had forgotten them. I just had her make a chart
to refer to when she needed it -- and they came back in no time. I
never once drilled her in it. If that had been a critical make or
break time for memorizing multiplication facts, she would have
remembered in the first place!
Linda
--- In [email protected], hbmccarty <hbmccarty@...> wrote:
>
> A homeschooling parent and former teacher told me today that children
> must learn skip counting or multiplication by age 12 or the neural
> pathways that allow this will close as an explanation of why children
> must be forced to learn. This seemed completely absurd, but of course I
> didn't have the right thing to say at the moment.
>
> My google search turned up this article
> http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/33/38811529.pdf , which seems to refute
> her statement, as well as having some other quite interesting
> information about learning.
>
> I have emailed my cousin who works in this field to check for the most
> up to date info before I forward to our local list but thought I would
> also consult the real experts on children and learning.
>
> thanks!
>
> Heather McCarty
>
Ren Allen
~~
And one nephew learned Spanish young -- and lost it all from disuse.~~
Exactly!
From what I've read and learned about neural pathways, is that we grow
them up to a certain age, yes. But once we've grown that neural
pathway it's always there. The brain begins to "turn off" the ones
that aren't used regularly but if we were to stimulate our brains in a
way that utilize that "off" neural pathway, it will begin to work again.
That's why a child that is blind from birth is not able to have those
bionicle eyes they're experimenting with now....the sight neural
pathways never got developed, so the brain wouldn't know what to do
with that information.
What stimulates neural pathways to grow in young children? I believe
being held a lot, talked to, played with and raised in a nourishing
environment gives a person all the neural pathways they'll need for
the rest of their life learning.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
And one nephew learned Spanish young -- and lost it all from disuse.~~
Exactly!
From what I've read and learned about neural pathways, is that we grow
them up to a certain age, yes. But once we've grown that neural
pathway it's always there. The brain begins to "turn off" the ones
that aren't used regularly but if we were to stimulate our brains in a
way that utilize that "off" neural pathway, it will begin to work again.
That's why a child that is blind from birth is not able to have those
bionicle eyes they're experimenting with now....the sight neural
pathways never got developed, so the brain wouldn't know what to do
with that information.
What stimulates neural pathways to grow in young children? I believe
being held a lot, talked to, played with and raised in a nourishing
environment gives a person all the neural pathways they'll need for
the rest of their life learning.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/4/2008 7:50:35 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
ecrouchm@... writes:
It gets more and more difficult for the brain to learn this kind of
processing as one ages without any previous mathematical learning.
E, that sounds like the same idea that you can't teach an old dog new tricks
- But the reality, as you just stated, is that you can, it just may be
harder - is that a decent analogy?
Karen
**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecrouchm@... writes:
It gets more and more difficult for the brain to learn this kind of
processing as one ages without any previous mathematical learning.
E, that sounds like the same idea that you can't teach an old dog new tricks
- But the reality, as you just stated, is that you can, it just may be
harder - is that a decent analogy?
Karen
**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/4/2008 7:59:22 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
I say "pppphhhhhffffttttt" to the very mistaken notion that we need to
learn anything by any certain age.
Ren, may I use that in a signature somewhere? I love it. I will of course
cite the author!
Karen
**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
I say "pppphhhhhffffttttt" to the very mistaken notion that we need to
learn anything by any certain age.
Ren, may I use that in a signature somewhere? I love it. I will of course
cite the author!
Karen
**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lesley Cross
"It really continues to blow my mind how those with a vested interest (and
payoff), think it's okay to make stuff up to give credence to all the
bullshit theories that fly around about the way we learn. We - I mean they -
are *so* brainwashed in this culture! I am oh so grateful to be aligned with
the 'real experts on children and learning'! Thanks y'all :)
Jodi"
I always find it helpful to remember that the reason most people stubbornly
cling to excuses justifying forced learning (hahaha! The term "forced
learning" is such a hilarious oxymoron- like it could be justified!) is that
it's too painful. Can you imagine, in our culture that promotes guilt, how
it would feel for most people to come to the horrifying realization of the
unnecessary pain inflicted upon them as children? And the pain of knowing
they have done, or are doing the same thing to their own children? (or, in
the case of many teachers, other people's children)? So painful, in fact,
that their minds cannot see it. Their minds will continue to create excuses
to justify their experience. That's the cycle of abuse, isn't it? How
often do you hear adults say that they "deserved" to be hit or punished in
some other way when they were children? It's the same thing.
I think most of us who are able to see it either come from a background that
was either a little bit closer to RU than mainstream (leaving that little
window open where we could see that it could be better), or was so damaging
that pain was dulled enough so we could see through it- or maybe we're just
made of tougher stuff ? :-)
It's easy to be angry about it, especially when confronted directly by
someone who believes and defends all the bullshit theories, but
compassionate understanding puts you in a more empowered place.
Lesley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
payoff), think it's okay to make stuff up to give credence to all the
bullshit theories that fly around about the way we learn. We - I mean they -
are *so* brainwashed in this culture! I am oh so grateful to be aligned with
the 'real experts on children and learning'! Thanks y'all :)
Jodi"
I always find it helpful to remember that the reason most people stubbornly
cling to excuses justifying forced learning (hahaha! The term "forced
learning" is such a hilarious oxymoron- like it could be justified!) is that
it's too painful. Can you imagine, in our culture that promotes guilt, how
it would feel for most people to come to the horrifying realization of the
unnecessary pain inflicted upon them as children? And the pain of knowing
they have done, or are doing the same thing to their own children? (or, in
the case of many teachers, other people's children)? So painful, in fact,
that their minds cannot see it. Their minds will continue to create excuses
to justify their experience. That's the cycle of abuse, isn't it? How
often do you hear adults say that they "deserved" to be hit or punished in
some other way when they were children? It's the same thing.
I think most of us who are able to see it either come from a background that
was either a little bit closer to RU than mainstream (leaving that little
window open where we could see that it could be better), or was so damaging
that pain was dulled enough so we could see through it- or maybe we're just
made of tougher stuff ? :-)
It's easy to be angry about it, especially when confronted directly by
someone who believes and defends all the bullshit theories, but
compassionate understanding puts you in a more empowered place.
Lesley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hbmccarty
This is the reply from my cousin at MIT- the "expert"- I forwarded him
the same link:
you are right that making a blanket statement about particular ages
related to that particular aspect of learning is not supported by
current evidence in the field. however, what the article says about
differences in learning over life stages is fairly well accepted. so
as always its not so black and white. there may be a greater ability
to learn certain math skills at certain stages of life, but saying
anything so specific as what the other parent claimed is not currently
substantiated, to my knowledge.<
Anyway- this is the cousin that made a major "detour" with 2 yrs in
prison on an arson charge after struggling through high school and a
suicide attempt.
Here is his more current bio:
received a B.S. in computer science in 2002 and a Ph.D. in cognitive and
neural systems in 2007. His doctoral work focused on characterizing the
geometry of primary visual cortex in human using surface-based analysis
of structural magnetic resonance images. His interests include
understanding how spatial representations in cortex facilitate brain
function and developing methods to harness these representations for
novel applications. Now a Postdoctoral Associate.
Fancy. Anyway, he likes his job a lot, plays in a band, lives frugally,
collects Jane Fonda workout books and videos, and has a super sense of
humor, and I think he is just about the coolest person in my family
though my grandmother can't get over his hair - you think she could over
look that considering!
Even if there are 'sensitive' periods when is may be easier for children
in general to learn some certain skill- the benefits of introducing that
skill when a child has no interest and in the worst case insisting that
a child learn during this time period due to fear of any kind is
completely outweighed by my personal experience over and over that
neural pathways are not at their most effective under coercion, stress,
and fear. And my children are not children in general, they are
individuals who know best when their own neural pathways are ready to
learn any certain thing. BTW, they both seem to pretty much "get" basic
arithmetic-though have not memorized all the facts - my daughter mainly
through her love of shopping- IRL and online shopping games.
I wish people would be more careful with their "facts and figures" and
not use them as scare tactics. I think this woman has got a whole bunch
of home schoolers believing that their children will never multiply if
they aren't made to do it right now, and who knows what other dire
consequences- probably that they will be on the couch at 30- wait a
minute, that was my uncle- didn't he go to public school?
Excerpts from the article:
"Evidence is now accumulating that our emotions do re-sculpt
neural tissue. In situations of excessive stress or intense fear, social
judgment and cognitive
performance suffer through compromise to the neural processes of
emotional regulation.
Some stress is essential to meet challenges and can lead to better
cognition and learning, but
beyond a certain level it has the opposite effect."
Sounds like school, possibly? Excessive stress, intense fear, social
judgement?
"Concerning positive emotions, one of most
powerful triggers that motivates people to learn is the illumination
that comes with the
grasp of new concepts – the brain responds very well to this. A primary
goal of early
education should be to ensure that children have this experience of
“enlightenment” as early
as possible and become aware of just how pleasurable learning can be.
Managing one’s emotions is one of the key skills of being an effective
learner; self-regulation
is one of the most important behavioural and emotional skills that
children and older people
need in their social environments."
Sounds like unschooling to me! Becoming aware of the pleasures of
learning and self regulating. Though that doesn't sound quite as much
fun as we are having-
Heather
the same link:
>good find. i like the objective tone and seemingly very reasonablestance taken by this article. citations would be nice, though. i think
you are right that making a blanket statement about particular ages
related to that particular aspect of learning is not supported by
current evidence in the field. however, what the article says about
differences in learning over life stages is fairly well accepted. so
as always its not so black and white. there may be a greater ability
to learn certain math skills at certain stages of life, but saying
anything so specific as what the other parent claimed is not currently
substantiated, to my knowledge.<
Anyway- this is the cousin that made a major "detour" with 2 yrs in
prison on an arson charge after struggling through high school and a
suicide attempt.
Here is his more current bio:
received a B.S. in computer science in 2002 and a Ph.D. in cognitive and
neural systems in 2007. His doctoral work focused on characterizing the
geometry of primary visual cortex in human using surface-based analysis
of structural magnetic resonance images. His interests include
understanding how spatial representations in cortex facilitate brain
function and developing methods to harness these representations for
novel applications. Now a Postdoctoral Associate.
Fancy. Anyway, he likes his job a lot, plays in a band, lives frugally,
collects Jane Fonda workout books and videos, and has a super sense of
humor, and I think he is just about the coolest person in my family
though my grandmother can't get over his hair - you think she could over
look that considering!
Even if there are 'sensitive' periods when is may be easier for children
in general to learn some certain skill- the benefits of introducing that
skill when a child has no interest and in the worst case insisting that
a child learn during this time period due to fear of any kind is
completely outweighed by my personal experience over and over that
neural pathways are not at their most effective under coercion, stress,
and fear. And my children are not children in general, they are
individuals who know best when their own neural pathways are ready to
learn any certain thing. BTW, they both seem to pretty much "get" basic
arithmetic-though have not memorized all the facts - my daughter mainly
through her love of shopping- IRL and online shopping games.
I wish people would be more careful with their "facts and figures" and
not use them as scare tactics. I think this woman has got a whole bunch
of home schoolers believing that their children will never multiply if
they aren't made to do it right now, and who knows what other dire
consequences- probably that they will be on the couch at 30- wait a
minute, that was my uncle- didn't he go to public school?
Excerpts from the article:
"Evidence is now accumulating that our emotions do re-sculpt
neural tissue. In situations of excessive stress or intense fear, social
judgment and cognitive
performance suffer through compromise to the neural processes of
emotional regulation.
Some stress is essential to meet challenges and can lead to better
cognition and learning, but
beyond a certain level it has the opposite effect."
Sounds like school, possibly? Excessive stress, intense fear, social
judgement?
"Concerning positive emotions, one of most
powerful triggers that motivates people to learn is the illumination
that comes with the
grasp of new concepts – the brain responds very well to this. A primary
goal of early
education should be to ensure that children have this experience of
“enlightenment” as early
as possible and become aware of just how pleasurable learning can be.
Managing one’s emotions is one of the key skills of being an effective
learner; self-regulation
is one of the most important behavioural and emotional skills that
children and older people
need in their social environments."
Sounds like unschooling to me! Becoming aware of the pleasures of
learning and self regulating. Though that doesn't sound quite as much
fun as we are having-
Heather
Erin Crouchman
Ren, I see that you are very passionate about this and I think you were genuine in asking your question so here is my response:
Most of us learn math starting in infancy. Without a school, without worksheets and problems on paper. We count and subtract how many peas we have left to eat at dinnertime. I don't think I really need to demonstrate how math is used from an early age, but without this exposure, indeed, I *do* believe the literature that tells us these pathways will close.
To each their own,
Erin
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
~~It gets more and more difficult for the brain to learn this kind of
processing as one ages without any previous mathematical learning.~~
What do you mean by "mathematical learning"? Because if you're talking
about the equations on paper, then I say BALONEY. A human being
exposed to LIFE is gaining "mathematical learning" even when it
doesn't look like it. Without a single math lesson of any kind, ever,
my children have picked up mathematical concepts with ease. So I ask
for clarification on the above statement because the kind of "math"
they do in school (or in prescribed lessons of any kind) is NOT
necessary for the brain to learn that kind of processing.
In fact, I think it's harmful to the brain's very natural way of
processing numbers.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
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Most of us learn math starting in infancy. Without a school, without worksheets and problems on paper. We count and subtract how many peas we have left to eat at dinnertime. I don't think I really need to demonstrate how math is used from an early age, but without this exposure, indeed, I *do* believe the literature that tells us these pathways will close.
To each their own,
Erin
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
~~It gets more and more difficult for the brain to learn this kind of
processing as one ages without any previous mathematical learning.~~
What do you mean by "mathematical learning"? Because if you're talking
about the equations on paper, then I say BALONEY. A human being
exposed to LIFE is gaining "mathematical learning" even when it
doesn't look like it. Without a single math lesson of any kind, ever,
my children have picked up mathematical concepts with ease. So I ask
for clarification on the above statement because the kind of "math"
they do in school (or in prescribed lessons of any kind) is NOT
necessary for the brain to learn that kind of processing.
In fact, I think it's harmful to the brain's very natural way of
processing numbers.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 7:57 AM, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
probably stand a heavier work load?
My experience as a human and a mostly adult human at that ::bg:: I find my
body/mind/spirit first reacts with shock at new stuff, the falls in to the
experience. I can't imagine my brain saying NO to new information or NEW
ways to interpret what's already there...
That's why a child that is blind from birth is not able to have those
pre-lingually Deaf.
artificial constructs in the Big Picture of the Human Experience. Sure, a
"great" social experiment maybe, certainly *not* the experience required to
bring us to this place in time... We'll realize it again (collectively), our
kids need *us* --everything else is the gravy of life.
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> ~~***Wouldn't it make sense, too, that the paths that already exist could
> And one nephew learned Spanish young -- and lost it all from disuse.~~
>
> Exactly!
> From what I've read and learned about neural pathways, is that we grow
> them up to a certain age, yes. But once we've grown that neural
> pathway it's always there. The brain begins to "turn off" the ones
> that aren't used regularly but if we were to stimulate our brains in a
> way that utilize that "off" neural pathway, it will begin to work again.
>
probably stand a heavier work load?
My experience as a human and a mostly adult human at that ::bg:: I find my
body/mind/spirit first reacts with shock at new stuff, the falls in to the
experience. I can't imagine my brain saying NO to new information or NEW
ways to interpret what's already there...
That's why a child that is blind from birth is not able to have those
> bionicle eyes they're experimenting with now....the sight neuralSame hearing cannot be *restored* with a cochlear implant if someone is
> pathways never got developed, so the brain wouldn't know what to do
> with that information.
>
pre-lingually Deaf.
> What stimulates neural pathways to grow in young children? I believeAs a still-evolving species, this is what makes sense. I'll never understand
> being held a lot, talked to, played with and raised in a nourishing
> environment gives a person all the neural pathways they'll need for
> the rest of their life learning.
>
>
>
>
artificial constructs in the Big Picture of the Human Experience. Sure, a
"great" social experiment maybe, certainly *not* the experience required to
bring us to this place in time... We'll realize it again (collectively), our
kids need *us* --everything else is the gravy of life.
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi Bezzola
~~I think most of us who are able to see it either come from a background that
was either a little bit closer to RU than mainstream (leaving that little
window open where we could see that it could be better), or was so damaging
that pain was dulled enough so we could see through it- or maybe we're just
made of tougher stuff ? :-)~~
...or always thought there was a better way, recognized the brilliance of RU as the 'better way', and rather than repeating the pattern of pain, choosing to slog through the mire of accepting and healing the reality of my own childhood so I can do better by my kids. I see my husband as one of the ones that 'can't' see it yet because he still thinks his upbringing and his public schooling were 'fine'.
I have understanding for the reasons behind the thinking and the behaviours of the educationaleze folks, just not loads of compassion or patience <g>.
Jodi
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
was either a little bit closer to RU than mainstream (leaving that little
window open where we could see that it could be better), or was so damaging
that pain was dulled enough so we could see through it- or maybe we're just
made of tougher stuff ? :-)~~
...or always thought there was a better way, recognized the brilliance of RU as the 'better way', and rather than repeating the pattern of pain, choosing to slog through the mire of accepting and healing the reality of my own childhood so I can do better by my kids. I see my husband as one of the ones that 'can't' see it yet because he still thinks his upbringing and his public schooling were 'fine'.
I have understanding for the reasons behind the thinking and the behaviours of the educationaleze folks, just not loads of compassion or patience <g>.
Jodi
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
brad jones
So seriously do you believe there are neural pathways that exist in every human that are strictly for math?
Erin Crouchman <ecrouchm@...> wrote: Ren, I see that you are very passionate about this and I think you were genuine in asking your question so here is my response:
Most of us learn math starting in infancy. Without a school, without worksheets and problems on paper. We count and subtract how many peas we have left to eat at dinnertime. I don't think I really need to demonstrate how math is used from an early age, but without this exposure, indeed, I *do* believe the literature that tells us these pathways will close.
To each their own,
Erin
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
~~It gets more and more difficult for the brain to learn this kind of
processing as one ages without any previous mathematical learning.~~
What do you mean by "mathematical learning"? Because if you're talking
about the equations on paper, then I say BALONEY. A human being
exposed to LIFE is gaining "mathematical learning" even when it
doesn't look like it. Without a single math lesson of any kind, ever,
my children have picked up mathematical concepts with ease. So I ask
for clarification on the above statement because the kind of "math"
they do in school (or in prescribed lessons of any kind) is NOT
necessary for the brain to learn that kind of processing.
In fact, I think it's harmful to the brain's very natural way of
processing numbers.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Erin Crouchman <ecrouchm@...> wrote: Ren, I see that you are very passionate about this and I think you were genuine in asking your question so here is my response:
Most of us learn math starting in infancy. Without a school, without worksheets and problems on paper. We count and subtract how many peas we have left to eat at dinnertime. I don't think I really need to demonstrate how math is used from an early age, but without this exposure, indeed, I *do* believe the literature that tells us these pathways will close.
To each their own,
Erin
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
~~It gets more and more difficult for the brain to learn this kind of
processing as one ages without any previous mathematical learning.~~
What do you mean by "mathematical learning"? Because if you're talking
about the equations on paper, then I say BALONEY. A human being
exposed to LIFE is gaining "mathematical learning" even when it
doesn't look like it. Without a single math lesson of any kind, ever,
my children have picked up mathematical concepts with ease. So I ask
for clarification on the above statement because the kind of "math"
they do in school (or in prescribed lessons of any kind) is NOT
necessary for the brain to learn that kind of processing.
In fact, I think it's harmful to the brain's very natural way of
processing numbers.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~Ren, may I use that in a signature somewhere? I love it. I will of
course cite the author!~~
Haha! Of course you may utilize it, rasberry and all.;) I wonder if
I'll ever get over the joy of saying "neener, neener" to all the
teachers and adults that fed me so many lies as a child. Somewhat
healing and all....
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
course cite the author!~~
Haha! Of course you may utilize it, rasberry and all.;) I wonder if
I'll ever get over the joy of saying "neener, neener" to all the
teachers and adults that fed me so many lies as a child. Somewhat
healing and all....
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~We count and subtract how many peas we have left to eat
at dinnertime. I don't think I really need to demonstrate how math is
used from an early age, but without this exposure, indeed, I *do*
believe the literature that tells us these pathways will close.~~
That's why I questioned whether you were relating "mathematical
processing" to schoolwork or simply the daily stuff we naturally
encounter. I think that kind of research is used all to often to
justify "early education" and other such useless crap.
In an unschooling family, a child will have toys to play with and
count, they will have food to play with and people to talk to and lots
and lots of chances to naturally encounter numbers. Of course. I think
in most any healthy family a child will develop those neural pathways
without a thought as to exposure because math is all around us.
A child left out in nature with no human interaction might not develop
those neural pathways...but maybe they would. Because there has been
some evidence of feral children learning all sorts of things nobody
thought they could learn after they were found. Not great evidence
there, because in most of those cases the scientists turned the poor
child into a case study and they never had a normal family life which
would give us a better look at just what neural pathways HAD formed
without a healthy start.
I think we don't really know the mysteries of the brain. I believe
wholeheartedly that in a nourishing family all the neural pathways a
person needs will develop just fine. Math and all (which is really
about patterns and sequence and logic).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
at dinnertime. I don't think I really need to demonstrate how math is
used from an early age, but without this exposure, indeed, I *do*
believe the literature that tells us these pathways will close.~~
That's why I questioned whether you were relating "mathematical
processing" to schoolwork or simply the daily stuff we naturally
encounter. I think that kind of research is used all to often to
justify "early education" and other such useless crap.
In an unschooling family, a child will have toys to play with and
count, they will have food to play with and people to talk to and lots
and lots of chances to naturally encounter numbers. Of course. I think
in most any healthy family a child will develop those neural pathways
without a thought as to exposure because math is all around us.
A child left out in nature with no human interaction might not develop
those neural pathways...but maybe they would. Because there has been
some evidence of feral children learning all sorts of things nobody
thought they could learn after they were found. Not great evidence
there, because in most of those cases the scientists turned the poor
child into a case study and they never had a normal family life which
would give us a better look at just what neural pathways HAD formed
without a healthy start.
I think we don't really know the mysteries of the brain. I believe
wholeheartedly that in a nourishing family all the neural pathways a
person needs will develop just fine. Math and all (which is really
about patterns and sequence and logic).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Mark V Fullerton
<"Most of us learn math starting in infancy. Without a school, without
worksheets and problems on paper. We count and subtract how many peas we have
left to eat at dinnertime. I don't think I really need to demonstrate how math
is used from an early age, but without this exposure, indeed, I *do* believe the
literature that tells us these pathways will close.">
I am sure that is true, but so what? It is inconceivable that any child would lack the necessary
exposure to the world in order for this to happen. Although there was a case years ago of a
young girl who was imprisoned at home by her parents and not allowed to communicate with
people; she apparently failed to develop left-hemisphere language ability. Whether she might
have been able to do so eventually is unclear, since she was delivered into the hands of
people who were more interested in studying her that in relating to her. See "Genie: A
Scientific Tragedy" at http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0060924659?
filterBy=addThreeStar
A more interesting question might be: if children are denied the opportunity to discover and
to decide their own interests by age 12, will they ever be able to do so?
worksheets and problems on paper. We count and subtract how many peas we have
left to eat at dinnertime. I don't think I really need to demonstrate how math
is used from an early age, but without this exposure, indeed, I *do* believe the
literature that tells us these pathways will close.">
I am sure that is true, but so what? It is inconceivable that any child would lack the necessary
exposure to the world in order for this to happen. Although there was a case years ago of a
young girl who was imprisoned at home by her parents and not allowed to communicate with
people; she apparently failed to develop left-hemisphere language ability. Whether she might
have been able to do so eventually is unclear, since she was delivered into the hands of
people who were more interested in studying her that in relating to her. See "Genie: A
Scientific Tragedy" at http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0060924659?
filterBy=addThreeStar
A more interesting question might be: if children are denied the opportunity to discover and
to decide their own interests by age 12, will they ever be able to do so?
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/5/2008 9:20:02 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
Ecrouchman: ~~We count and subtract how many peas we have left to eat
at dinnertime. I don't think I really need to demonstrate how math is
used from an early age, but without this exposure, indeed, I *do*
believe the literature that tells us these pathways will close.~~
Ren: That's why I questioned whether you were relating "mathematical
processing" to schoolwork or simply the daily stuff we naturally
encounter. I think that kind of research is used all to often to
justify "early education" and other such useless crap.
____________________
The mediator in me is replying here :)
I think that the same thing is essentially being said. I know "E" personally
- she is a great friend that is brand new to unschooling - jumped right in,
feet first into the exciting waters of it. Ren is a well versed women with
lots of experience - and also a good friend/mentor style to me. Both of you
women are really outspoken, direct and confident - reasons I like you both so
much. Both are super-child-oriented, too.
anyway - just wanted to mention that. i love being challenged here - I feel
like I am always shifting, learning, getting it more and more each day.
sometimes, the directness of this group is INTENSE, but I've never really seen
anything personally directed - but lost of challenging going on - in a good way.
Well, not too sure of my point anymore, but yeah. lol.
Love to all, and thanks to all,
Karen
**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
Ecrouchman: ~~We count and subtract how many peas we have left to eat
at dinnertime. I don't think I really need to demonstrate how math is
used from an early age, but without this exposure, indeed, I *do*
believe the literature that tells us these pathways will close.~~
Ren: That's why I questioned whether you were relating "mathematical
processing" to schoolwork or simply the daily stuff we naturally
encounter. I think that kind of research is used all to often to
justify "early education" and other such useless crap.
____________________
The mediator in me is replying here :)
I think that the same thing is essentially being said. I know "E" personally
- she is a great friend that is brand new to unschooling - jumped right in,
feet first into the exciting waters of it. Ren is a well versed women with
lots of experience - and also a good friend/mentor style to me. Both of you
women are really outspoken, direct and confident - reasons I like you both so
much. Both are super-child-oriented, too.
anyway - just wanted to mention that. i love being challenged here - I feel
like I am always shifting, learning, getting it more and more each day.
sometimes, the directness of this group is INTENSE, but I've never really seen
anything personally directed - but lost of challenging going on - in a good way.
Well, not too sure of my point anymore, but yeah. lol.
Love to all, and thanks to all,
Karen
**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa
Ren,
To address your question about feral children etc.... I have a
friend who had the distinction of being the worst case of child abuse
in Northern VA history at one point. He was the second of 3
children... an older brother and younger sister were never abused (it
was discovered during his adulthood that neither of his "parents" were
genetically linked to him although no adoption records have been
found) At any rate... he never attended school, at various times in
his life he was made to live in an abandoned barn on the property his
father managed (a large horse farm). He was abused in so many ways
it's just heartbreaking to even contemplate. His xrays light up like
a Christmas tree he has so many breaks and heal overs. He can tell
you which household chemicals do the least damage when ingested and
which ones only get worse when water is consumed after them. He
knows how long you can go without food before you pass out and lots of
other horribly useful things if you are being tortured!
All that said... he ended up in foster care at age 17 when he snapped
and almost killed his father during an episode of abuse. He was put
into a school program and basically completed an entire school career
and got a high school diploma in just a few years then went on to
college and did very well. I have had many conversations with him
about his past because it just amazes me that he developed at all.
He said he played alot of math and logic games in his head...
evidently he had learned to count at some point (perhaps as a toddler
before the abuse began?) he was able to take that simple skill and
although he didnt know what it was called he learned to add, subtract,
multiply and divide just by knowing how to count. So my thought is
that there are very minimal "math" type things that really HAVE to be
taught to develop those type of neural pathways. His main deficit was
language... he had made up lots of names for things because he didn't
know what they were really called but basically he made his own
language so in all actuality language was not a weakness English was!
He of course has all the emotional baggage, lots of sensory issues
and so forth (you should have seen him the first time he tasted Pepsi!
) Anyway he's quite a neat person to know ... and he assures my
children that he WAS raised in a barn but doesn't leave doors open!
Anyway just thought you would find that interesting!
Lisa Blocker
To address your question about feral children etc.... I have a
friend who had the distinction of being the worst case of child abuse
in Northern VA history at one point. He was the second of 3
children... an older brother and younger sister were never abused (it
was discovered during his adulthood that neither of his "parents" were
genetically linked to him although no adoption records have been
found) At any rate... he never attended school, at various times in
his life he was made to live in an abandoned barn on the property his
father managed (a large horse farm). He was abused in so many ways
it's just heartbreaking to even contemplate. His xrays light up like
a Christmas tree he has so many breaks and heal overs. He can tell
you which household chemicals do the least damage when ingested and
which ones only get worse when water is consumed after them. He
knows how long you can go without food before you pass out and lots of
other horribly useful things if you are being tortured!
All that said... he ended up in foster care at age 17 when he snapped
and almost killed his father during an episode of abuse. He was put
into a school program and basically completed an entire school career
and got a high school diploma in just a few years then went on to
college and did very well. I have had many conversations with him
about his past because it just amazes me that he developed at all.
He said he played alot of math and logic games in his head...
evidently he had learned to count at some point (perhaps as a toddler
before the abuse began?) he was able to take that simple skill and
although he didnt know what it was called he learned to add, subtract,
multiply and divide just by knowing how to count. So my thought is
that there are very minimal "math" type things that really HAVE to be
taught to develop those type of neural pathways. His main deficit was
language... he had made up lots of names for things because he didn't
know what they were really called but basically he made his own
language so in all actuality language was not a weakness English was!
He of course has all the emotional baggage, lots of sensory issues
and so forth (you should have seen him the first time he tasted Pepsi!
) Anyway he's quite a neat person to know ... and he assures my
children that he WAS raised in a barn but doesn't leave doors open!
Anyway just thought you would find that interesting!
Lisa Blocker
> A child left out in nature with no human interaction might not develop
> those neural pathways...but maybe they would. Because there has been
> some evidence of feral children learning all sorts of things nobody
> thought they could learn after they were found. Not great evidence
> there, because in most of those cases the scientists turned the poor
> child into a case study and they never had a normal family life which
> would give us a better look at just what neural pathways HAD formed
> without a healthy start.
>
> I think we don't really know the mysteries of the brain. I believe
> wholeheartedly that in a nourishing family all the neural pathways a
> person needs will develop just fine. Math and all (which is really
> about patterns and sequence and logic).
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
hbmccarty
Hi Erin-
Not to challenge you personally, but do you have any specific links,
books, articles that would support the idea that neural pathways close?
I have posted the article that I posted her on our local list, and the
woman that originally made the statement thanked me, but says:
There are a certain number of synapses that close during the
'growing' years due to environment and types of learning. It is
thought that there is a certain synapse configuration that causes
mental retardation and autism.
I didn't find anything like this in my search- but thought you might
have some information about this- inferred from your post quoted below:
Erin Crouchman wrote:
Most of us learn math starting in infancy. Without a school, without
worksheets and problems on paper. We count and subtract how many peas we
have left to eat at dinnertime. I don't think I really need to
demonstrate how math is used from an early age, but without this
exposure, indeed, I *do* believe the literature that tells us these
pathways will close.
In addition:
I found this below to be very true- as one of a very few unschoolers and
maybe one of 2 radical unschoolers in the midst of a large group of
school at home families- in order to have my views be seen as rational
and not raving lunacy I find it very important to be compassionate and
unfailingly polite. I usually avoid discussion, but lately am feeling up
to the challenge! Empowered. We all care deeply about our children, we
just have very different ways of viewing our role as caring parent.
lesley wrote:
It's easy to be angry about it, especially when confronted directly by
someone who believes and defends all the bullshit theories, but
compassionate understanding puts you in a more empowered place.
Heather
Not to challenge you personally, but do you have any specific links,
books, articles that would support the idea that neural pathways close?
I have posted the article that I posted her on our local list, and the
woman that originally made the statement thanked me, but says:
There are a certain number of synapses that close during the
'growing' years due to environment and types of learning. It is
thought that there is a certain synapse configuration that causes
mental retardation and autism.
I didn't find anything like this in my search- but thought you might
have some information about this- inferred from your post quoted below:
Erin Crouchman wrote:
Most of us learn math starting in infancy. Without a school, without
worksheets and problems on paper. We count and subtract how many peas we
have left to eat at dinnertime. I don't think I really need to
demonstrate how math is used from an early age, but without this
exposure, indeed, I *do* believe the literature that tells us these
pathways will close.
In addition:
I found this below to be very true- as one of a very few unschoolers and
maybe one of 2 radical unschoolers in the midst of a large group of
school at home families- in order to have my views be seen as rational
and not raving lunacy I find it very important to be compassionate and
unfailingly polite. I usually avoid discussion, but lately am feeling up
to the challenge! Empowered. We all care deeply about our children, we
just have very different ways of viewing our role as caring parent.
lesley wrote:
It's easy to be angry about it, especially when confronted directly by
someone who believes and defends all the bullshit theories, but
compassionate understanding puts you in a more empowered place.
Heather
Jodi Bezzola
~~A more interesting question might be: if children are denied the opportunity to discover and to decide their own interests by age 12, will they ever be able to do so?~~
This question caught my attention as a *very* valid one. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it took a loooooong time to even have an inkling of what my interests are. I remember going to a course called "Life Directions" about 10 years ago and being completely overwhelmed (at age 30) by all the questions about what I love, what draws me, what fascinates me, because it was all one gigantic *blank*. Those who were making decisions for me back then - parents, educators, religious leaders - did one hell of a job of denying me the opportunity to even know it was okay to *have* my own interests, so much so that at age 41 it's something I still struggle with - knowing myself, knowing what I'm passionate about. I really believe that the pathways wired for passion, joy, interest, purpose, self-regulation, self-referencing, love, etc. are so crucial to be concerned about - these are what make us *happy* imo .
Jodi
Mark V Fullerton <markvictorfullerton@...> wrote:
<"Most of us learn math starting in infancy. Without a school, without
worksheets and problems on paper. We count and subtract how many peas we have
left to eat at dinnertime. I don't think I really need to demonstrate how math
is used from an early age, but without this exposure, indeed, I *do* believe the
literature that tells us these pathways will close.">
I am sure that is true, but so what? It is inconceivable that any child would lack the necessary
exposure to the world in order for this to happen. Although there was a case years ago of a
young girl who was imprisoned at home by her parents and not allowed to communicate with
people; she apparently failed to develop left-hemisphere language ability. Whether she might
have been able to do so eventually is unclear, since she was delivered into the hands of
people who were more interested in studying her that in relating to her. See "Genie: A
Scientific Tragedy" at http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0060924659?
filterBy=addThreeStar
A more interesting question might be: if children are denied the opportunity to discover and
to decide their own interests by age 12, will they ever be able to do so?
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This question caught my attention as a *very* valid one. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it took a loooooong time to even have an inkling of what my interests are. I remember going to a course called "Life Directions" about 10 years ago and being completely overwhelmed (at age 30) by all the questions about what I love, what draws me, what fascinates me, because it was all one gigantic *blank*. Those who were making decisions for me back then - parents, educators, religious leaders - did one hell of a job of denying me the opportunity to even know it was okay to *have* my own interests, so much so that at age 41 it's something I still struggle with - knowing myself, knowing what I'm passionate about. I really believe that the pathways wired for passion, joy, interest, purpose, self-regulation, self-referencing, love, etc. are so crucial to be concerned about - these are what make us *happy* imo .
Jodi
Mark V Fullerton <markvictorfullerton@...> wrote:
<"Most of us learn math starting in infancy. Without a school, without
worksheets and problems on paper. We count and subtract how many peas we have
left to eat at dinnertime. I don't think I really need to demonstrate how math
is used from an early age, but without this exposure, indeed, I *do* believe the
literature that tells us these pathways will close.">
I am sure that is true, but so what? It is inconceivable that any child would lack the necessary
exposure to the world in order for this to happen. Although there was a case years ago of a
young girl who was imprisoned at home by her parents and not allowed to communicate with
people; she apparently failed to develop left-hemisphere language ability. Whether she might
have been able to do so eventually is unclear, since she was delivered into the hands of
people who were more interested in studying her that in relating to her. See "Genie: A
Scientific Tragedy" at http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0060924659?
filterBy=addThreeStar
A more interesting question might be: if children are denied the opportunity to discover and
to decide their own interests by age 12, will they ever be able to do so?
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rebecca de
Jodi,
Yet again, so often what you write is so much on the lines that I am at!! I am also working on remembering what I like to do at 39 yet!!! Even more reason that I am following the unschooling path I do not want to rob my children of that ability!!
Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...> wrote: ~~A more interesting question might be: if children are denied the opportunity to discover and to decide their own interests by age 12, will they ever be able to do so?~~
This question caught my attention as a *very* valid one. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it took a loooooong time to even have an inkling of what my interests are. I remember going to a course called "Life Directions" about 10 years ago and being completely overwhelmed (at age 30) by all the questions about what I love, what draws me, what fascinates me, because it was all one gigantic *blank*. Those who were making decisions for me back then - parents, educators, religious leaders - did one hell of a job of denying me the opportunity to even know it was okay to *have* my own interests, so much so that at age 41 it's something I still struggle with - knowing myself, knowing what I'm passionate about. I really believe that the pathways wired for passion, joy, interest, purpose, self-regulation, self-referencing, love, etc. are so crucial to be concerned about - these are what make us *happy* imo .
Jodi
Mark V Fullerton <markvictorfullerton@...> wrote:
<"Most of us learn math starting in infancy. Without a school, without
worksheets and problems on paper. We count and subtract how many peas we have
left to eat at dinnertime. I don't think I really need to demonstrate how math
is used from an early age, but without this exposure, indeed, I *do* believe the
literature that tells us these pathways will close.">
I am sure that is true, but so what? It is inconceivable that any child would lack the necessary
exposure to the world in order for this to happen. Although there was a case years ago of a
young girl who was imprisoned at home by her parents and not allowed to communicate with
people; she apparently failed to develop left-hemisphere language ability. Whether she might
have been able to do so eventually is unclear, since she was delivered into the hands of
people who were more interested in studying her that in relating to her. See "Genie: A
Scientific Tragedy" at http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0060924659?
filterBy=addThreeStar
A more interesting question might be: if children are denied the opportunity to discover and
to decide their own interests by age 12, will they ever be able to do so?
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yet again, so often what you write is so much on the lines that I am at!! I am also working on remembering what I like to do at 39 yet!!! Even more reason that I am following the unschooling path I do not want to rob my children of that ability!!
Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...> wrote: ~~A more interesting question might be: if children are denied the opportunity to discover and to decide their own interests by age 12, will they ever be able to do so?~~
This question caught my attention as a *very* valid one. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it took a loooooong time to even have an inkling of what my interests are. I remember going to a course called "Life Directions" about 10 years ago and being completely overwhelmed (at age 30) by all the questions about what I love, what draws me, what fascinates me, because it was all one gigantic *blank*. Those who were making decisions for me back then - parents, educators, religious leaders - did one hell of a job of denying me the opportunity to even know it was okay to *have* my own interests, so much so that at age 41 it's something I still struggle with - knowing myself, knowing what I'm passionate about. I really believe that the pathways wired for passion, joy, interest, purpose, self-regulation, self-referencing, love, etc. are so crucial to be concerned about - these are what make us *happy* imo .
Jodi
Mark V Fullerton <markvictorfullerton@...> wrote:
<"Most of us learn math starting in infancy. Without a school, without
worksheets and problems on paper. We count and subtract how many peas we have
left to eat at dinnertime. I don't think I really need to demonstrate how math
is used from an early age, but without this exposure, indeed, I *do* believe the
literature that tells us these pathways will close.">
I am sure that is true, but so what? It is inconceivable that any child would lack the necessary
exposure to the world in order for this to happen. Although there was a case years ago of a
young girl who was imprisoned at home by her parents and not allowed to communicate with
people; she apparently failed to develop left-hemisphere language ability. Whether she might
have been able to do so eventually is unclear, since she was delivered into the hands of
people who were more interested in studying her that in relating to her. See "Genie: A
Scientific Tragedy" at http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0060924659?
filterBy=addThreeStar
A more interesting question might be: if children are denied the opportunity to discover and
to decide their own interests by age 12, will they ever be able to do so?
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/7/2008 9:27:19 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
jodibezzola@... writes:
Those who were making decisions for me back then - parents, educators,
religious leaders - did one hell of a job of denying me the opportunity to even
know it was okay to *have* my own interests, so much so that at age 41 it's
something I still struggle with - knowing myself, knowing what I'm passionate
about.
________________
Oh, I get that! In my early years, I was sure I'd be a naturalist, my
passion for that was rather powerful...and as time passed, and more and more
controlling schooling came my way, my interst waned and it became about the things
I *couldn't* have, not about the things *I* wanted to be and have. I totally
understand that...and some of those feelings are what brought me here to
unschooling.
Karen
**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jodibezzola@... writes:
Those who were making decisions for me back then - parents, educators,
religious leaders - did one hell of a job of denying me the opportunity to even
know it was okay to *have* my own interests, so much so that at age 41 it's
something I still struggle with - knowing myself, knowing what I'm passionate
about.
________________
Oh, I get that! In my early years, I was sure I'd be a naturalist, my
passion for that was rather powerful...and as time passed, and more and more
controlling schooling came my way, my interst waned and it became about the things
I *couldn't* have, not about the things *I* wanted to be and have. I totally
understand that...and some of those feelings are what brought me here to
unschooling.
Karen
**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Erin has unsubbed. But you could google it and probably receive
thousands of hits.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
-----Original Message-----
From: hbmccarty <hbmccarty@...>
Hi Erin-
Not to challenge you personally, but do you have any specific links,
books, articles that would support the idea that neural pathways close?
I have posted the article that I posted her on our local list, and the
woman that originally made the statement thanked me, but says:
There are a certain number of synapses that close during the
'growing' years due to environment and types of learning. It is
thought that there is a certain synapse configuration that causes
mental retardation and autism.
I didn't find anything like this in my search-
thousands of hits.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
-----Original Message-----
From: hbmccarty <hbmccarty@...>
Hi Erin-
Not to challenge you personally, but do you have any specific links,
books, articles that would support the idea that neural pathways close?
I have posted the article that I posted her on our local list, and the
woman that originally made the statement thanked me, but says:
There are a certain number of synapses that close during the
'growing' years due to environment and types of learning. It is
thought that there is a certain synapse configuration that causes
mental retardation and autism.
I didn't find anything like this in my search-
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/7/2008 12:03:05 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
Erin has unsubbed. But you could google it and probably receive
thousands of hits.
~Kelly
_______________________
Oh, no. Dammit. Sigh.
Karen
**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
Erin has unsubbed. But you could google it and probably receive
thousands of hits.
~Kelly
_______________________
Oh, no. Dammit. Sigh.
Karen
**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]