melissa_hice

I am fairly new to unschooling (since this fall). I'm still learning.
I was able to meet up with some "unschooling" families yesterday.
Maybe I was expecting too much, but I was let down. When I asked the
mothers about unschooling, they said things like:

"We do some unschooling and some curriculum" or
"We do unschooling some weeks and some weeks we do more school work"
"I consider us unschooling, but we also use other methods as well."

and similar responses.

I thought unschooling was like a lifestyle or something. Do most
people who "unschool" do it partially and those who unschool "full
time" are in the minority?

Melissa, who is trying to live an unschooled life with 2 dc

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: melissa_hice <mhice@...>


I am fairly new to unschooling (since this fall). I'm still learning.
I was able to meet up with some "unschooling" families yesterday.
Maybe I was expecting too much, but I was let down. When I asked the
mothers about unschooling, they said things like:

"We do some unschooling and some curriculum" or
"We do unschooling some weeks and some weeks we do more school work"
"I consider us unschooling, but we also use other methods as well."

and similar responses.

I thought unschooling was like a lifestyle or something. Do most
people who "unschool" do it partially and those who unschool "full
time" are in the minority?

-===-

That's the conundrum. <g>

There's no definition. Well, there's no UNIVERSAL definition. *I* have
one. I really GOOD one. <g>

Basically *anything* is unschooling to many people who simply aren't
sending their kids to school. *I* feel they haven't bothered to read
John Holt, if that's what they think it is.

*I* think Holt was VERY specific in his description/definition. He was
wholly behind the idea that children are NATURAL learning machines and
that we don't need to coerce anything. That children *want* to learn
and *want* to be as adult-like as possible. That we just need to be
patient---and trusting and respectful and generous and curious and
MODEL all that for them. Children will do the rest.

I'm sorry you had those messages come at you. If you can make it to a
conference, you will be immersed in the whole life philosophy.

Minority/majority? Well, on the lists, I'd say *most* people are still
working on it---hell, ALL of us are still working on it! I try to do
better every day---it's a never-ending process. <G> But the regular
posters here and on all the lists that sprang from Unschoolingdotcom
and unschooling.com are radical unschoolers who see it as a lifestyle.
But the majority of readers and people out there who say they're
unschooling? They're not quite on the same page. In fact, many are in
different chapters and even different BOOKS!

Where are you? Maybe we know someone nearby who gets it. A day with a
family who's UNSCHOOLING can be life-changing. I just got back from a
weekend with two other radical unschooling families (the Haworths and
the Biegler/Yablonskis). There's nothing like it.

If you're ever passing through Columbia, SC, you're welcome to hang
with us!

We'll be at the Northeast Unschooling Conference in Peabody, MA in May,
and of course at the Live and Learn Unscholing Conference in September.
*I* will have more time to sit and chat in Peabody <g>, but I'd love to
meet you at either conference.

Don't be so discouraged. We're out here. <g>


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Melissa Gray

Hi Melissa, I'm Melissa as well.

We started unschooling about 3 and 1/2 years ago, and we had the
exact same problem. I was really uncomfortable at playdates, outings
and such, because so many of the 'unschooling' parents would say,
"Well, the kids have these classes" and the kids HATED them, math and
science and such, or almost all the discussion was around what
curriculum was unschooly enough. I was so fortunate to meet someone
who had the time and energy to start their own group, and so we did,
one that specifically states that no discussion of curriculum or
coercion would be tolerated. Other than that we're very tolerant of
any person ;-)

The conference would make a huge difference, I know it did for us, to
be completely surrounded by hundreds of lifestyle unschoolers. Where
do you live?

Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane

blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/




On Mar 1, 2008, at 8:00 AM, melissa_hice wrote:

> I am fairly new to unschooling (since this fall). I'm still learning.
> I was able to meet up with some "unschooling" families yesterday.
> Maybe I was expecting too much, but I was let down. When I asked the
> mothers about unschooling, they said things like:
>
> "We do some unschooling and some curriculum" or
> "We do unschooling some weeks and some weeks we do more school work"
> "I consider us unschooling, but we also use other methods as well."
>
> and similar responses.
>
> I thought unschooling was like a lifestyle or something. Do most
> people who "unschool" do it partially and those who unschool "full
> time" are in the minority?
>
> Melissa, who is trying to live an unschooled life with 2 dc
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~I thought unschooling was like a lifestyle or something. Do most
people who "unschool" do it partially and those who unschool "full
time" are in the minority?~~


I don't know who is or isn't the minority, but I would guess that
radical unschoolers aren't a majority anywhere.;) Except maybe at Live
and Learn or other conferences.

Here at this list, you'll find it heavily influenced by those of us
that live unschooling as a lifestyle, a philosophy that pervades every
choice and relationship. It's simple in my mind...you either trust
children or you don't. You trust they can learn what they need, when
they need it, or you don't. That applies to everything.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~~We'll be at the Northeast Unschooling Conference in Peabody, MA in
May, and of course at the Live and Learn Unscholing Conference in
September. *I* will have more time to sit and chat in Peabody <g>, but
I'd love to meet you at either conference.~~

I'll be at both of those too...but I'll be fairly distracted because
all of my children will be with me. Come to think of it, I probably
won't see my kids all weekend actually, other than Jalen.;) Moira will
be traveling with us as well, so I'll have an extra unschooler (now in
college) for you to meet.

I'll see some of you in Chicago next week too!! Looking forward to it.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

k g

What about classes and curriculum that the child chooses? We have had Switched on Schoolhouse, which is a school at home packaged curriculum for the computer. The kids WANTED to do it.They saw it at someone else's house and told me to buy it for them. I have it set up, but I removed any due dates. There are no daily assignments from me. It's just in there and the kids can do it whenever they want and do any subject they want. They have used it quite a lot for the past 2 years, especially the science and French. They also like taking classes at the Mystic Seaport Museum (the science related ones) and sometimes at the local nature center.
I never considered us to be true unschoolers, but ecclectic. Although I would like to work on more unschooling. Is this also part time unschooling? What if the kids choose the class or want the curriculum?
-Kelly


---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 1, 2008, at 11:01 AM, k g wrote:

> What about classes and curriculum that the child chooses?

Again why is more important than what. Two kids can do curriculum and
one be unschooling and the other not.

If a mom is worried that learning from life isn't enough, if the
child went to school and picked up the message they need a rigorous
course of study to be learning, if a mom doesn't trust unschooling
and is secretly relieved with a child does something that resembles
school then a child can say they want to do a curriculum but are
choosing for reasons that have nothing to do with natural learning.

So those are questions to ask *yourself*. Could there be a reason
they're choosing it other than because they enjoy it?

You don't need to answer because we aren't the ones you need to
convince! You need to understand for yourself so you can objectively
look at unschooling in your home.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maisha Khalfani

See..that's why I'm going to both of these conferences. I need to *see* you
guys in action. I don't know any radically Unschooling families. I know
families who are Unschooling on the academic end (or at least trying to).
But when you talk about living with your children consensually and as
partners..that's when the glaze comes over their faces LOL.



be at peace,

Maisha

<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/> Khalfani Family Adventures

<http://earthspiritjourneys.blogspot.com/> EarthSpirit Journeys





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: k g <barefootmamax4@...>

What about classes and curriculum that the child chooses? We have had
Switched
on Schoolhouse, which is a school at home packaged curriculum for the
computer.
The kids WANTED to do it.They saw it at someone else's house and told
me to buy
it for them. I have it set up, but I removed any due dates. There are
no daily
assignments from me. It's just in there and the kids can do it whenever
they
want and do any subject they want. They have used it quite a lot for
the past 2
years, especially the science and French. They also like taking classes
at the
Mystic Seaport Museum (the science related ones) and sometimes at the
local
nature center.

-=-=-=-=-

If they *want* to do it, great. But if it's seen as "better" some how,
that's when it gets tricky.

-=-=-=-=-

Is this also part time unschooling?

-=-=-==-

IMO, there's no such thing. EITHER you understand that children are
hard-wired to learn, OR you don't. That part's not difficult to
understand. That is very black & white.

DO you believe that your children will learn EVERYTHING they will need
to know? NOT *before* they need to know it, but that they will learn it
WHEN they need to know it?

*HOW* they learn it will be different for each and every person. So
will *WHEN*. And *WHERE*. *WHY* may also be different, but it should be
related to the *learner's* desire to learn that thing.

How could someone unschool part time? What would that look like?
Seriously---can anyone here describe that to me? I trust you to learn
*this*, but not *that*?? What kind of trust is that?

If you trust me to learn---if you trust that I am *capable* of learning
everything I need to know, why would you feel the need to *make* me
learn anything?

You could *help* me, if I have the desire, but you can't *force* me to!
And by forcing, you demonstrate that you don't NOT, in fact, *trust* me.

-=-=-=-=-=-

What if the kids choose the class or want the curriculum?

-=-=-=-=-

*I* do that sometimes. Both of my boys have done it. Ben (my husband)
is doing that right this minute: he's studying for War
College----because he *wants* to.

The philosophical problem comes from the societal view that classes and
curriculum and teachers are considered THE ways to learn. Any other
learning isn't really valued. If that's the way you or your children
are seeing their classes and curricula, then it shows a lack of *trust*
in the learning process.

If, on the other hand, you see classes and curricula as a different way
to access the information or a fun way to learn, then it's just that: a
different way to access the information and a fun way to learn.

SEEing that difference will enable you to trust that we *are* natural
learners. Classes and curricula can be fine ways to learn---if that's
what makes the learner happy. But NOT if that's the only way the
learner sees that learning *can* happen.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

seccotine_ch

*****
Joyce Fetteroll wrote :
> Again why is more important than what. Two kids can do curriculum
and
one be unschooling and the other not.
******

Hi, this is your Swiss lurker again :)

I completely agree with the "why" being the most important thing. The
power of intention ... :)

I'm really struggling with unschooling vs. curricular learning these
days, and I guess the main reasons are the following :

- unschooling is not allowed here in Switzerland; we have the right
to
homeschool, provided we follow the official curriculum in french and
math. In June, my son will be tested in order to check if he knows
how
to read, to count and if he writes correctly. And he does not (he
knows
how to read, actually, but he's not fluent because he doesn't read a
lot)

- there are so many beautiful and interesting "teaching" material - I
have so much fun doing it and imagining doing all these things with
my
kids (I like the idea of curriculum for parents, I've read that
somewhere ;p) It's difficult to let that go :))

- "lessons" are also the occasion of having fun together, and it
helps
structuring our days. If I don't organize things, what we mainly do
is
doing our own business separately (well, the kinds play a lot
together
and I like that - actually, I think that unschooling would be worth
it for this single reason only :)). I have sometimes the feeling that
we are
loosing time, that we should do a lot of fascinating things and that
we
mostly hang around (? not sure of the word).

- unschooling is exhausting :D ! It can be very difficult for me to
follow my 3 kids and/or to propose them new things. A curriculum
would be easier, and I'm not against some "easiness" sometimes. It
wouldn't mean that we don't learn all the time, in many different
places and occasions (I'm completely convinced that human are hard-
wired to learn), but reading-writing-math would be taken care of "on
schedule" and it would really lighten my burden.

- a last one on the "anxious" side : I am unconfortable with the
fact that my kids aren't at level compared to other kids. I KNOW this
is a bad one, really I do, and it doesn't appear all the time, just a
flashy thing - but it sometimes bothers me, especially
because I know that people around me strongly disagree with my
choices ... Please don't attack me on this one, because I'm really
conscious of its poisonous potential. I've just added it to be honest
with my motivations : some are positive ones (and by positive, I mean
source of life and joy), some are negative ones ...

Having said all that, I'm still confused and some days I'm 100% on
the
unschooling side (I'm a huge fan of John Holt, I love reading him)
and
some other days, I'm more willing to sit at a table and DO schooly
things with them. Really, it probably sound like old news to you, but
for me, it's a big problem. I really can't choose between the two
paths ...

Hope I'll read some good advice, as usual and thanking you again for
simply being there :)

Helen, in Geneva (Switzerland), happy and exhausted mother of Sylvain
(7 yo), Cyrielle (5 yo) and Circé (2 yo)

jenniferbreseman

Wow, that's interesting. What happens if your son does not pass the
test? Is that the only way they enforce the law to follow the
national curriculum? Have you talked to your kids about it? Not to
scare them or anything, but to let them know what the consequences
are. Perhaps there are ways to gain the skills to pass the test that
would be more a natural part of life than sitting at the kitchen
table doing lessons. Reading books on things they like, looking up
things on the internet...

There is some chatter here in Virginia because next to us in
Washington DC there is legislation that would tighten up
homeschooling in a similar way. Requiring following their curriculum
(if you've ever heard how bad DC schools are, you should be laughing
hysterically now). I've wondered what I would do. To me unschooling
is about getting the most joy out of life. I think I would be more
joyful doing a little curriculum than fending off the authorities.
And then working within the system to help bring about change. We're
so lucky in our state to have a state homeschool organization which
is organized and well run (mostly by unschoolers) that keeps on top
of legislation as it arises and helps to educate our lawmakers about
homeschooling.

I'd love to hear more about the law and organizations like that in
Switzerland.

Jennifer

--- In [email protected], "seccotine_ch"
<seccotine@...> wrote:
>
> *****
> Joyce Fetteroll wrote :
> > Again why is more important than what. Two kids can do curriculum
> and
> one be unschooling and the other not.
> ******
>
> Hi, this is your Swiss lurker again :)
>
> I completely agree with the "why" being the most important thing.
The
> power of intention ... :)
>
> I'm really struggling with unschooling vs. curricular learning
these
> days, and I guess the main reasons are the following :
>
> - unschooling is not allowed here in Switzerland; we have the right
> to
> homeschool, provided we follow the official curriculum in french
and
> math. In June, my son will be tested in order to check if he knows
> how
> to read, to count and if he writes correctly. And he does not (he
> knows
> how to read, actually, but he's not fluent because he doesn't read
a
> lot)
>
> - there are so many beautiful and interesting "teaching" material -
I
> have so much fun doing it and imagining doing all these things with
> my
> kids (I like the idea of curriculum for parents, I've read that
> somewhere ;p) It's difficult to let that go :))
>
> - "lessons" are also the occasion of having fun together, and it
> helps
> structuring our days. If I don't organize things, what we mainly do
> is
> doing our own business separately (well, the kinds play a lot
> together
> and I like that - actually, I think that unschooling would be worth
> it for this single reason only :)). I have sometimes the feeling
that
> we are
> loosing time, that we should do a lot of fascinating things and
that
> we
> mostly hang around (? not sure of the word).
>
> - unschooling is exhausting :D ! It can be very difficult for me to
> follow my 3 kids and/or to propose them new things. A curriculum
> would be easier, and I'm not against some "easiness" sometimes. It
> wouldn't mean that we don't learn all the time, in many different
> places and occasions (I'm completely convinced that human are hard-
> wired to learn), but reading-writing-math would be taken care
of "on
> schedule" and it would really lighten my burden.
>
> - a last one on the "anxious" side : I am unconfortable with the
> fact that my kids aren't at level compared to other kids. I KNOW
this
> is a bad one, really I do, and it doesn't appear all the time, just
a
> flashy thing - but it sometimes bothers me, especially
> because I know that people around me strongly disagree with my
> choices ... Please don't attack me on this one, because I'm really
> conscious of its poisonous potential. I've just added it to be
honest
> with my motivations : some are positive ones (and by positive, I
mean
> source of life and joy), some are negative ones ...
>
> Having said all that, I'm still confused and some days I'm 100% on
> the
> unschooling side (I'm a huge fan of John Holt, I love reading him)
> and
> some other days, I'm more willing to sit at a table and DO schooly
> things with them. Really, it probably sound like old news to you,
but
> for me, it's a big problem. I really can't choose between the two
> paths ...
>
> Hope I'll read some good advice, as usual and thanking you again
for
> simply being there :)
>
> Helen, in Geneva (Switzerland), happy and exhausted mother of
Sylvain
> (7 yo), Cyrielle (5 yo) and Circé (2 yo)
>