Nance Confer

Questions:
He pays rent??? Does the list know all about this arrangement and I just wasn't paying attention?

Did anybody but you care about the button being pushed? And isn't that just too close to pushing your buttons? :)

Nance

******************

Yesterday a situation came up with my oldest that has me concerned. I
am not sure what he's thinking.

We went to the bank to get money deposited, etc. DS has a check every
month for him to spend money on. He pays rent and has money left for
what he wants. It is quite some change. At the bank I reminded him
of the rent and the money he owed for the toy I got for him because he
could not wait. (Lego Mars Mission set) He was upset (I would be too
if I didn't understand how money shrinks), but he paid the amounts
needed. He went over to the back of the room and played with the table
set toys for kids. I was ready to go because one twin was hungry and
wanted to eat. A gentle reminder to all... then I was left waiting at
the door with one twin. I went back again to remind him and the other
twin, but DS stayed while the rest of us stood at the door. We
FINALLY got to the van but DS lagged back, pushing at the handicapped
door button. I went back once again but he refused to look at me or
stop pushing at the button. I had to push him away gently to look at
me (remember we depend on eye contact to sign and communicate) and get
him to stop pushing the button. He kept coming back at it before
running to the van. I explained when he finally looked at me that
the button is for people who are in a wheelchair or have crutches. If
kids play with it all the time they might take out that button or put
up an ugly sign that says Parents, please do not allow your children



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adrean Clark

> He pays rent??? Does the list know all about this arrangement and I just wasn't paying attention?

No, he pays a portion of the rent scaled down to his income. I
thought it would help him understand a little of how things work with
my own money as well. This money usually goes to paying for gas and
eating out all together since I have to make the payment myself at the
beginning of the month. I didn't know this could be a hot button?

Adrean

swissarmy_wife

Wait what? I must have missed this. Your son pays rent? Why?

Second, it sounds to me like your son was very upset that he had to
leave. Did you try and acknowledge his feelings about leaving? I see
that you sign, but did you try to effectively communicate to him that
you understood upwhy he was set, and try and reach some sort of
solution. Sometimes, when my kids are upset about leaving, all I have
to do is acknowledge their feelings and empathize with them (gee I
know this really sucks, maybe next time we can stay longer).




> Yesterday a situation came up with my oldest that has me concerned. I
> am not sure what he's thinking.
>
> We went to the bank to get money deposited, etc. DS has a check every
> month for him to spend money on. He pays rent and has money left for
> what he wants. It is quite some change. At the bank I reminded him
> of the rent and the money he owed for the toy I got for him because he
> could not wait. (Lego Mars Mission set) He was upset (I would be too
> if I didn't understand how money shrinks), but he paid the amounts
> needed. He went over to the back of the room and played with the table
> set toys for kids. I was ready to go because one twin was hungry and
> wanted to eat. A gentle reminder to all... then I was left waiting at
> the door with one twin. I went back again to remind him and the other
> twin, but DS stayed while the rest of us stood at the door. We
> FINALLY got to the van but DS lagged back, pushing at the handicapped
> door button. I went back once again but he refused to look at me or
> stop pushing at the button. I had to push him away gently to look at
> me (remember we depend on eye contact to sign and communicate) and get
> him to stop pushing the button. He kept coming back at it before
> running to the van. I explained when he finally looked at me that
> the button is for people who are in a wheelchair or have crutches. If
> kids play with it all the time they might take out that button or put
> up an ugly sign that says Parents, please do not allow your children
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

GWilhelm

Do you give him the money from which he has to pay you rent? And then he has
to pay or budget his expenses from that? How old is he?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrean Clark" <adreanaline@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] not stopping


>> He pays rent??? Does the list know all about this arrangement and I just
>> wasn't paying attention?
>
> No, he pays a portion of the rent scaled down to his income. I
> thought it would help him understand a little of how things work with
> my own money as well. This money usually goes to paying for gas and
> eating out all together since I have to make the payment myself at the
> beginning of the month. I didn't know this could be a hot button?
>
> Adrean
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

swissarmy_wife

I was thinking also that these are awfully big concepts for an 8 year
old to grasp. Also, by giving him money and requiring he give it back
to pay you rent you are forcing a false learning experience. If he
hasn't already, he will figure out that children don't pay rent.
Adults do.

My concerns are this:
* You will be creating a resentment toward earning money and
having to give it up again.
* You also will be creating trust issues in your relationship.
You're giving him something. Then taking it back.

I think, if he is interested, including him in the budget, paying
bills process would be much more likely to help him understand where
the money goes.


--- In [email protected], "Adrean Clark"
<adreanaline@...> wrote:
>
> > He pays rent??? Does the list know all about this arrangement and
I just wasn't paying attention?
>
> No, he pays a portion of the rent scaled down to his income. I
> thought it would help him understand a little of how things work with
> my own money as well. This money usually goes to paying for gas and
> eating out all together since I have to make the payment myself at the
> beginning of the month. I didn't know this could be a hot button?
>
> Adrean
>

Ren Allen

~~No, he pays a portion of the rent scaled down to his income. I
thought it would help him understand a little of how things work with
my own money as well. ~~

Wow.
Kids shouldn't have to pay rent in my opinion. Ever. I think that is a
parents responsibility. Sure, share all the information about where
the money goes if he's interested in being included in that. Great.
But paying rent?
No. Parents should be responsible for providing the necessities for
their children. That's part of being a parent. I don't think making a
child pay rent is a healthy way to foster trust. He lives in your
home, you chose to have him, you chose to provide everything he needs
by choosing to have a child.

And he's 8!! I don't even make my 18 year old pay rent. I can't
imagine a child having that kind of adult responsibility foisted upon
him. What happened to having a carefree childhood?

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

Adrean,

As I read through your money arrangements with your child, I keep
thinking about how I'd feel if my dh treated me the way you're
treating your child. I would be PISSED. It's disrespectful.

Obviously a parent/child relationship is very different from a
parenting partnership, but all I have to do in order to see whether
something is respectful is ask myself how I'd feel if dh and I did
that to each other. Makes a lot of treatment to children look very
different.

When my dh was the sole breadwinner, he didn't give me an allowance
and have me pay rent or any other such thing. He provided what he could.
My money, our home, our food etc.. is for everyone in the family.
Whether you have any sort of income or not, you are provided for. We
share our resources.

The money your eight year old is being given, should be his to choose
how to use or it isn't really his. If he's being made to pay rent,
that is decided by the parents and it really isn't a choice at all.
The amount is decided by the adults, the fact that he has to use his
money that way is decided by adults. If you give him money, it should
be truly HIS in my opinion. Anything you decided about how it's used,
makes it NOT his at all. So keep that portion and quite pretending
it's his. Because it isn't.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

diana jenner

On Feb 10, 2008 8:08 AM, Adrean Clark <adreanaline@...> wrote:

> > He pays rent??? Does the list know all about this arrangement and I
> just wasn't paying attention?
>
> No, he pays a portion of the rent scaled down to his income. I
> thought it would help him understand a little of how things work with
> my own money as well. This money usually goes to paying for gas and
> eating out all together since I have to make the payment myself at the
> beginning of the month. I didn't know this could be a hot button?
>
>

I think your situation is (like mine) very different than the norm. Are you
talking about his SSI check?
I've received Social Security Survivors Benefits since my husband's death.
This means every month, I get a stipend for me and one for each child.
Basically, this means the kid(s) get a check in their name. My kids were
initially confused as to why I couldn't hand over the entire thing to them;
I explained that it really comes out as *child support* and it's intended to
Support their whole Lives. I also made it clear that just as I get *paid*
just for being their mom, they get paid just for being kids (allowance,
though I think stipend is a better term). I've made a point (even, maybe
especially, when it's a struggle) to be VERY generous with their pocket
money.
It's much easier for Hayden and I, as he gets older and has a better
understanding of the day-to-day financial flow of our lives.
The situation described above sounds like a different take on what I'm
doing. It's not a "collect cans to pay your rent" kind of situation :D
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

On Feb 10, 2008 8:54 PM, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> The money your eight year old is being given, should be his to choose
> how to use or it isn't really his. If he's being made to pay rent,
> that is decided by the parents and it really isn't a choice at all.
> The amount is decided by the adults, the fact that he has to use his
> money that way is decided by adults. If you give him money, it should
> be truly HIS in my opinion. Anything you decided about how it's used,
> makes it NOT his at all. So keep that portion and quite pretending
> it's his. Because it isn't.
>
>
>


I imagine that one day Hayden may decide he'd like *his* check deposited
into *his* account. Oh My! How cool must that be for a kid, to have a FAT
(definitely in their perspective) check deposited every single month :D If
it were tomorrow, that means we'd have to have a talk about *family cash
flow* and his contribution to such. He'd probably think it was a real treat
to pay his *bills* every month, especially if it meant an ATM card or actual
paper check to sign :D I'd even play along and get a receipt book ;)
He's already talked about depositing his allowance into a checking account,
so he can pay his WoW and Runescape fees independently.
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adrean Clark

Ren --

I'd be angry too if my husband treated me this way, but the checks are
in my sons' names. They are, in a complicated way, child support from
my husband. In the past I kept the checks but felt it wasn't fair
because their names are on them, so they get them. I did not mention
this because I didn't want to completely open our finances to the
list. Cat's out the bag now. :)

Because I give this disposable income to the children instead of
keeping it, it also means I ask for extra support elsewhere to make it
to the end of the month. So the "rent" helps in that aspect. I am
still thinking over our options on it.

But I do understand DS's anger at having money fly out of his hands -
he got upset at Radio Shack recently because the $20 pinball machine
he was choosing to buy himself took the last of his money. He asked
to go to there and I supported him in his request. DS was saying it's
amazing how a itty-bitty thing like a Nintendogs DS game cartridge
costs more new than the pinball machine. The wheels in his head are
turning now. :)

When you mention a "care-free childhood," what do you picture? For
me, I want my children to be well aware of how the world works, to be
involved with the running of a household and the tasks needed for it.
I don't want them to view adult life as mysterious and some mythical
threshhold that they will reach, then get smacked down or forever feel
like they're just playing at being adults. I don't mean throw the
ugliness of the world at them, I mean have them aware of the
responsibilities and situations that come with living.

I understand that it wouldn't be a good idea to extract "rent" from
the boys because they didn't choose the place we live in right now.
One option could be that we together as a family choose the next place
we live and discuss the contribution each of us could give to the new
place. Or we could settle on an "allowance" amount paid out by check
or cash every week via "bank box" in the house so I wouldn't be the
direct one to blame. (For the twins at this point it's the mailbox
where their checks are yet to arrive. Ha.) There's lots more ideas...


Adrean

Nance Confer

John wrote: The boys get a check each month, thanks to my
being on SSDI. It is automatic "child support."

***********

Hi John --

It's good to have this input but it still isn't clear to me why this is an issue.

Does the check actually come made out in the boys' name each month? Or does it come made out to the parent, to be used for child support?

Thanks.

Nance



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Susan Wiltbank

When I first pulled our kids out of school, I wanted them to understand our finances. My mom had never included my brother in I in the task of family finances. I firmly believe in letting our kids know how much we pay out in bills and how much is left for fun. So, I got 2 extra registers and printed some "checks" out for them to use. Whenever dh got paid we went to the bank made our deposit, then went home to write out the bills. Jordan and Skylor recorded everything I did in their registers, they wrote out checks for all the same bills in the same amounts. When we were done, they knew exactly how much was left for fun stuff. This way they understand when I would have to say,we only have the money for so&so. They knew I wasn't lying and knew when the extra money was there I would gladly spend it on them.
Susie
----- Original Message -----
From: swissarmy_wife<mailto:heatherbean@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 7:19 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Paying Rent WAS: not stopping


I was thinking also that these are awfully big concepts for an 8 year
old to grasp. Also, by giving him money and requiring he give it back
to pay you rent you are forcing a false learning experience. If he
hasn't already, he will figure out that children don't pay rent.
Adults do.

My concerns are this:
* You will be creating a resentment toward earning money and
having to give it up again.
* You also will be creating trust issues in your relationship.
You're giving him something. Then taking it back.

I think, if he is interested, including him in the budget, paying
bills process would be much more likely to help him understand where
the money goes.

--- In [email protected]<mailto:unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>, "Adrean Clark"
<adreanaline@...> wrote:
>
> > He pays rent??? Does the list know all about this arrangement and
I just wasn't paying attention?
>
> No, he pays a portion of the rent scaled down to his income. I
> thought it would help him understand a little of how things work with
> my own money as well. This money usually goes to paying for gas and
> eating out all together since I have to make the payment myself at the
> beginning of the month. I didn't know this could be a hot button?
>
> Adrean
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adrean Clark

It's both. My name and the boys' names are on them (for ease of banking).

Adrean

Ren Allen

~~For
me, I want my children to be well aware of how the world works, to be
involved with the running of a household and the tasks needed for it.~~


There's really no such thing as a "care-free" childhood, but I do
think kids should ideally be free from adult responsibility until such
time as they WANT it. Which they do, each in their own way and time.
Just like everything else. I don't think providing themselves with
housing is something they should need to do until they want to. In
essence, your child is being made to be responsible for something he
doesn't want to be responsible for.

The checks aren't truly for him alone. Whether they're in his name or
not, he does not have complete control over how to spend them...so it
isn't his. I would not try to pretend like it is. I would take those
checks and use them for whatever survival things you need, then give
the children exactly what is theirs free and clear of any strings.
Just my .02.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~~So, I got 2 extra registers and printed
some "checks" out for them to use. Whenever dh got paid we went to the
bank made our deposit, then went home to write out the bills. Jordan
and Skylor recorded everything I did in their registers, they wrote
out checks for all the same bills in the same amounts.~~



If my child was interested in learning about this, the above might
work. Otherwise it's just another construed lesson intended to teach
them something. Maybe they enjoyed it, but I find these kind of
activities more about what the adults think the child needs to learn
rather than bubbling up out of natural curiosity.

As my children get old enough to ask questions about cost and such, we
share household income and budget information. Ours is a little bit
more confusing because we can seem loaded one month and in the
poorhouse for several months (dh is in real estate) and we can't spend
what we have leftover after bills! But, we share whatever information
needed. Learning about finances can be as natural as learning to read
when one is ready. It doesn't take a lesson or activity created by an
adult in order to learn this.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

swissarmy_wife

I grew up with a disabled mother. If I remember right we used to get
those checks, but it was once in awhile, not monthly since my mother
was the custodial parent.

Both names are on those checks. It is my understanding that those
checks are intended for you, to aid you financially in the raising of
your children. I think each child gets a separate check because this
is the amount allotted to you for that particular child. I do not
think this is for ease of banking. I think that is for ease of their
records. Child support, even court ordered child support isn't
intended to go straight into the hands of the child. It is intended
for the parent to make the child's life as comfortable as it would be
if the father were there.

--- In [email protected], "Adrean Clark"
<adreanaline@...> wrote:
>
> It's both. My name and the boys' names are on them (for ease of
banking).
>
> Adrean
>

wisdomalways5

maybe explaining to them that you must use such and such amount to
live on and you will cash what is left and give to them to spend.
Instead you are giving them money and then taking it back and then
they are mad about what is left when they have seen the whole
amount.

Julie



--- In [email protected], "Adrean Clark"
<adreanaline@...> wrote:
>
> Ren --
>
> I'd be angry too if my husband treated me this way, but the checks
are
> in my sons' names. They are, in a complicated way, child support
from
> my husband. In the past I kept the checks but felt it wasn't fair
> because their names are on them, so they get them. I did not
mention
> this because I didn't want to completely open our finances to the
> list. Cat's out the bag now. :)
>
> Because I give this disposable income to the children instead of
> keeping it, it also means I ask for extra support elsewhere to
make it
> to the end of the month. So the "rent" helps in that aspect. I am
> still thinking over our options on it.
>
> But I do understand DS's anger at having money fly out of his
hands -
> he got upset at Radio Shack recently because the $20 pinball
machine
> he was choosing to buy himself took the last of his money. He
asked
> to go to there and I supported him in his request. DS was saying
it's
> amazing how a itty-bitty thing like a Nintendogs DS game cartridge
> costs more new than the pinball machine. The wheels in his head
are
> turning now. :)
>
> When you mention a "care-free childhood," what do you picture? For
> me, I want my children to be well aware of how the world works, to
be
> involved with the running of a household and the tasks needed for
it.
> I don't want them to view adult life as mysterious and some
mythical
> threshhold that they will reach, then get smacked down or forever
feel
> like they're just playing at being adults. I don't mean throw the
> ugliness of the world at them, I mean have them aware of the
> responsibilities and situations that come with living.
>
> I understand that it wouldn't be a good idea to extract "rent" from
> the boys because they didn't choose the place we live in right now.
> One option could be that we together as a family choose the next
place
> we live and discuss the contribution each of us could give to the
new
> place. Or we could settle on an "allowance" amount paid out by
check
> or cash every week via "bank box" in the house so I wouldn't be the
> direct one to blame. (For the twins at this point it's the mailbox
> where their checks are yet to arrive. Ha.) There's lots more
ideas...
>
>
> Adrean
>

Susan Wiltbank

I guess I should've added that this was when I first pulled them out of school, and felt the need to "teach" them something. But my son has always had a love affair with money ;0).
Susie
----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen<mailto:starsuncloud@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 5:11 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Paying Rent WAS: not stopping


~~So, I got 2 extra registers and printed
some "checks" out for them to use. Whenever dh got paid we went to the
bank made our deposit, then went home to write out the bills. Jordan
and Skylor recorded everything I did in their registers, they wrote
out checks for all the same bills in the same amounts.~~

If my child was interested in learning about this, the above might
work. Otherwise it's just another construed lesson intended to teach
them something. Maybe they enjoyed it, but I find these kind of
activities more about what the adults think the child needs to learn
rather than bubbling up out of natural curiosity.

As my children get old enough to ask questions about cost and such, we
share household income and budget information. Ours is a little bit
more confusing because we can seem loaded one month and in the
poorhouse for several months (dh is in real estate) and we can't spend
what we have leftover after bills! But, we share whatever information
needed. Learning about finances can be as natural as learning to read
when one is ready. It doesn't take a lesson or activity created by an
adult in order to learn this.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wilda lahmann

Very well put, what I have been spending countless hours trying to put into words here.....my kiddos also receive checks from their deceased father....

swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...> wrote: I grew up with a disabled mother. If I remember right we used to get
those checks, but it was once in awhile, not monthly since my mother
was the custodial parent.

Both names are on those checks. It is my understanding that those
checks are intended for you, to aid you financially in the raising of
your children. I think each child gets a separate check because this
is the amount allotted to you for that particular child. I do not
think this is for ease of banking. I think that is for ease of their
records. Child support, even court ordered child support isn't
intended to go straight into the hands of the child. It is intended
for the parent to make the child's life as comfortable as it would be
if the father were there.

--- In [email protected], "Adrean Clark"
<adreanaline@...> wrote:
>
> It's both. My name and the boys' names are on them (for ease of
banking).
>
> Adrean
>








Savannah, Tennessee
"Just this side of Paradise"





---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

***No, he pays a portion of the rent scaled down to his income. I
thought it would help him understand a little of how things work with
my own money as well.***

We write here sometimes about parents being their child's partner. What we mean by that is parents who've been alive longer and have more experience and more ideas about how to solve problems, etc., should be helping their kids do what they want and get what they want. We don't mean a child should be a parents partner in managing adult responsibilities.

Making a child pay rent, making a little child feel responsible for what should be his parents responsibilities comes uncomfortably close to emotional incest. A parent who makes a child feel that he is a partner in the responsibility of feeding and housing a family is making a terrible, terrible mistake. It's unhealthy. Stop it.

If the checks are intended for the kids to use, give them the checks. If the checks are intended for their care, cash the checks and use the portion you need and give them what's left for spending money. Tell them something like, "This is from the money your Dad sends to help take care of us." and let that be it

Everyone has to find a way to live with what they have. Whether you have a one income family, SS checks, whether you're on Welfare, whether both parents work EVERYONE has to find a way to live with the money they have. Limited income is not an excuse for the emotional abuse of children.


Deb Lewis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keetry

If you really need to use that money to help pay the rent, it's not
realy disposable, is it? It's part of the family income that is needed
for necessities.

Alysia

--- In [email protected], "Adrean Clark"
<adreanaline@...> wrote:
>
> > Because I give this disposable income to the children instead of
> keeping it, it also means I ask for extra support elsewhere to make
it
> to the end of the month. So the "rent" helps in that aspect. I am
> still thinking over our options on it.
>
> Adrean
>