11 is such a hard age
Karen Swanay
OK, this should be a quick and easy answer...maybe =)
This morning I was talking to my 11 yr old son and he was mouthing
off. (We were discussing household chores meaning what is done around
a house to keep it running smoothly.) And he was saying he wanted
some extra money to buy something. I told him he could earn it by
helping to clean up around the yard but that it was his choice. (And
no, I don't have the money to just hand him everything he wants under
the sun...I have to save when I want something that I don't need. He
has his needs completely taken care of. His wants we have to work on
budgeting for.) Anyway, rather than me doing it all, I offered I
would pay him to help me. He said "No, I'm not doing that because you
will want it done your way and I don't want to put up with that." I
said "OK that's your choice." Then he said "You always do that, say
we have a choice when we don't. If I don't help I can't earn extra
money and so you say I have a choice when I don't. You are so mean
that way." And I don't think I was being mean at all. I offered him
the choice to help me in the yard or not that's his choice. And it
hurt my feelings. So I said "It hurts my feelings when you say I'm
mean when I'm trying to help you find ways to get what you want." And
then he started to cry. I asked him why he was crying and he said
"When you say I hurt your feelings that makes me sad because it means
you hate me." OK that SO doesn't mean that. I explained that it
doesn't mean I hate him at all but that I have feelings too, and they
get hurt. And that in his life he's going to meet people that are
more sensitive than others and that's just the way life is. And in
the middle of me talking he butted in and started to talk over me. So
I said "Excuse me, I was speaking. It's impolite to interrupt others
when they are talking. I listen when you speak, it's disrespectful to
me to not offer me the same courtesy that I extend to you." And
that's when he freaked out. Told me I shouldn't tell him he's being
disrespectful because that makes him feel bad.
So what do I do? If my husband talked to me that way I'd have
responded the same way. If my mother did it I would have responded
the same way. If a friend did it same thing. So I don't think I was
being heavy handed with him because he's a kid. I have feelings too
just like he does. If I'm trying to respect his feelings and his
wants he should do the same with me and everyone else in the house
yes? And if I am wrong can someone offer a different script for this
exchange?
Thank you.
Karen
This morning I was talking to my 11 yr old son and he was mouthing
off. (We were discussing household chores meaning what is done around
a house to keep it running smoothly.) And he was saying he wanted
some extra money to buy something. I told him he could earn it by
helping to clean up around the yard but that it was his choice. (And
no, I don't have the money to just hand him everything he wants under
the sun...I have to save when I want something that I don't need. He
has his needs completely taken care of. His wants we have to work on
budgeting for.) Anyway, rather than me doing it all, I offered I
would pay him to help me. He said "No, I'm not doing that because you
will want it done your way and I don't want to put up with that." I
said "OK that's your choice." Then he said "You always do that, say
we have a choice when we don't. If I don't help I can't earn extra
money and so you say I have a choice when I don't. You are so mean
that way." And I don't think I was being mean at all. I offered him
the choice to help me in the yard or not that's his choice. And it
hurt my feelings. So I said "It hurts my feelings when you say I'm
mean when I'm trying to help you find ways to get what you want." And
then he started to cry. I asked him why he was crying and he said
"When you say I hurt your feelings that makes me sad because it means
you hate me." OK that SO doesn't mean that. I explained that it
doesn't mean I hate him at all but that I have feelings too, and they
get hurt. And that in his life he's going to meet people that are
more sensitive than others and that's just the way life is. And in
the middle of me talking he butted in and started to talk over me. So
I said "Excuse me, I was speaking. It's impolite to interrupt others
when they are talking. I listen when you speak, it's disrespectful to
me to not offer me the same courtesy that I extend to you." And
that's when he freaked out. Told me I shouldn't tell him he's being
disrespectful because that makes him feel bad.
So what do I do? If my husband talked to me that way I'd have
responded the same way. If my mother did it I would have responded
the same way. If a friend did it same thing. So I don't think I was
being heavy handed with him because he's a kid. I have feelings too
just like he does. If I'm trying to respect his feelings and his
wants he should do the same with me and everyone else in the house
yes? And if I am wrong can someone offer a different script for this
exchange?
Thank you.
Karen
swissarmy_wife
First of all I have to giggle at your subject line. I think struggles
often come with children at different ages and then the statement
comes to mind "# is such a hard age". It's kind of like when your
out with your child and they do something neat publicly and someone
walks by and says, "thats such a great age". They are all tough and
great. I could even put my own age in there.
I'm gonna give this a shot because I sometimes have similar struggles
with my 9 year old. He is very intense and sometimes his tone of
voice is very negative.
have had a list of things to choose from or even asked him what he
would like to do. In another scenario, if you have the money to give
him for yard work, why don't you you just let him have it? Were you
going to spend it somewhere else? (I definitely could be wrong there,
but I don't see a problem with it letting a child have a few bucks if
they ask for it)
Anyway, rather than me doing it all, I offered I
because it either IS that way or WAS that way. I don't know how long
you have been unschooling, but he might need time to trust that he can
do something HIS way.
As a parent, I know that many of things my children say I can't take
personally. They are children and don't always have the tools to
express their anger and frustration. I would have left that alone.
He's is allowed to think your mean without you trying to change his
mind. That's his CHIOCE.
So
anything anymore. I don't even know if I should. I do know that when
I let it go. It wasn't a big deal anymore. He's a kid. Kids
interrupt. I interrupt! Someone told me it was a Northeast thing.
we all interrupt each other. Ever been to Boston?
unless you approve?
I made a pact with myself the other day. It's February and we are
getting some cabin fever around here. There's been some struggles. I
decided, that I was going to TALK LESS and DO MORE. It's really
working. The more I point stuff out, the worse the struggles get. If
I just solve the problems, they see me using problem solving and learn
that way.
I REALLY hope this helps. It sounds like you have a very intense 11
year old. So do I! (9) I know how hard and frustrating it can be to
stay in the now and parent that way you'd like when the emotional
response is so extreme.
often come with children at different ages and then the statement
comes to mind "# is such a hard age". It's kind of like when your
out with your child and they do something neat publicly and someone
walks by and says, "thats such a great age". They are all tough and
great. I could even put my own age in there.
I'm gonna give this a shot because I sometimes have similar struggles
with my 9 year old. He is very intense and sometimes his tone of
voice is very negative.
> I told him he could earn it byInstead of giving him the one "chore" to earn money. Maybe you could
> helping to clean up around the yard but that it was his choice. (And
> no, I don't have the money to just hand him everything he wants under
> the sun...I have to save when I want something that I don't need. He
> has his needs completely taken care of. His wants we have to work on
> budgeting for.)
have had a list of things to choose from or even asked him what he
would like to do. In another scenario, if you have the money to give
him for yard work, why don't you you just let him have it? Were you
going to spend it somewhere else? (I definitely could be wrong there,
but I don't see a problem with it letting a child have a few bucks if
they ask for it)
Anyway, rather than me doing it all, I offered I
> would pay him to help me. He said "No, I'm not doing that because youI don't blame him. If this is what he believes then its probably
> will want it done your way and I don't want to put up with that."
because it either IS that way or WAS that way. I don't know how long
you have been unschooling, but he might need time to trust that he can
do something HIS way.
> You are so mean that way." And I don't think I was being mean atDid it really hurt your feelings? Or were you trying to make a point?
>all. I offered him the choice to help me in the yard or not that's
>his choice. And it hurt my feelings. So I said "It hurts my
>feelings when you say I'm mean when I'm trying to help you find ways
>to get what you want."
As a parent, I know that many of things my children say I can't take
personally. They are children and don't always have the tools to
express their anger and frustration. I would have left that alone.
He's is allowed to think your mean without you trying to change his
mind. That's his CHIOCE.
So
> I said "Excuse me, I was speaking. It's impolite to interrupt othersIt does. I have an interrupter. Big time! I've chosen not to say
> when they are talking. I listen when you speak, it's disrespectful to
> me to not offer me the same courtesy that I extend to you." And
> that's when he freaked out. Told me I shouldn't tell him he's being
> disrespectful because that makes him feel bad.
anything anymore. I don't even know if I should. I do know that when
I let it go. It wasn't a big deal anymore. He's a kid. Kids
interrupt. I interrupt! Someone told me it was a Northeast thing.
we all interrupt each other. Ever been to Boston?
> So what do I do? If my husband talked to me that way I'd haveYour mother and husband aren't allowed to form opinions about you
> responded the same way. If my mother did it I would have responded
> the same way.
unless you approve?
>So I don't think I being heavy handed with him because he's a kid.He thinks so. And his opinion should be valuable to you.
I made a pact with myself the other day. It's February and we are
getting some cabin fever around here. There's been some struggles. I
decided, that I was going to TALK LESS and DO MORE. It's really
working. The more I point stuff out, the worse the struggles get. If
I just solve the problems, they see me using problem solving and learn
that way.
I REALLY hope this helps. It sounds like you have a very intense 11
year old. So do I! (9) I know how hard and frustrating it can be to
stay in the now and parent that way you'd like when the emotional
response is so extreme.
Joyce Fetteroll
> OK, this should be a quick and easy answer...maybe =)Relatively so, but not the answer I think you're expecting!
I think you need to listen to what your son is saying. He's reacting
to how the world feels to him, not to how you believe it looks.
Regardless of what the intent of your words and actions is, he's
feeling them differently.
From what you wrote, I'd say he's spot on. It *isn't* fun to help
someone who wants a clone of themselves. Free help should be
appreciated regardless of what's expected. In fact throw expectations
away. Appreciate the *time* someone has taken from their life to do
something for you. Paid help should be different, but if you've
gotten into this type of interaction over free help in the past, the
difference will take some healing with a lot of pure unadulterated
appreciation of free help.
> "You always do that, sayDoesn't make a difference. *He* sees it his way and he's going to
> we have a choice when we don't. If I don't help I can't earn extra
> money and so you say I have a choice when I don't. You are so mean
> that way." And I don't think I was being mean at all.
react to how he sees it. If you respond in the way *you* want him to
see the world, you'll be butting heads and he'll feel unheard.
You've had years to learn how to be patient with someone who's still
feeling his way. He *isn't* trying to hurt you. He's just trying to
solve a problem with skills that aren't up to the task. They will
grow. He doesn't need lessons in the moment on how to relate. Help
him solve the problem. Don't change the focus.
> I offered himWhat you offered was my way or the highway. What he wants is someone
> the choice to help me in the yard or not that's his choice.
to help him solve his problem. Be his advocate. If one solution falls
through, help him think of another. Help him think of dozens.
> So I said "It hurts my feelings when you say I'mAgain, listen to what he's telling you.
> mean when I'm trying to help you find ways to get what you want." And
> then he started to cry. I asked him why he was crying and he said
> "When you say I hurt your feelings that makes me sad because it means
> you hate me."
It *can* be frustrating, certainly, but remove yourself from the
equation. It's not about you. It's about him and a problem he's
having. Get yourself out of the way of the problem.
Don't tell him he's hurt your feelings in a situation like this. It
takes the focus off the problem and turns him into the problem.
> OK that SO doesn't mean that.To him it does.
> And that in his life he's going to meet people that areHe wants to buy something. You've turned it into a lecture on how
> more sensitive than others and that's just the way life is.
inadequate he is.
> And inIf I went to someone I trusted for help and they started lecturing me
> the middle of me talking he butted in and started to talk over
> me. So
> I said "Excuse me, I was speaking. It's impolite to interrupt others
> when they are talking.
on something that was unrelated, I'd be irritated too.
> I listen when you speak, it's disrespectful toActually, perhaps what you do is wait until he's done speaking, but
> me to not offer me the same courtesy that I extend to you.
what you're doing is listening to see if you agree with what he's
saying and then tell him he's wrong. You *aren't* listening to his
words and trying to understand *him*.
You'd probably get a lot out of:
THE DAILY GROOVE ~ by Scott Noelle
www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove
Nice and short and sweet everyday, ways to honor our children. :-)
Joyce
Karen Swanay
On Feb 7, 2008 8:19 AM, swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...> wrote:
Instead of giving him the one "chore" to earn money. Maybe you could
have had a list of things to choose from or even asked him what he
would like to do. In another scenario, if you have the money to give
him for yard work, why don't you you just let him have it? Were you
going to spend it somewhere else? (I definitely could be wrong there,
but I don't see a problem with it letting a child have a few bucks if
they ask for it)
**OK well I had given a list of things he could choose from. And we
don't just have the money to give him. Plus he's very selfish,
(something I've noticed but not said to him or anyone else.) And he
doesn't take very good care of his things unless he's worked to get
them. So I figured it would be good for him all around.
Additionally, he saved all his holiday money and bought himself
something he really wanted and it gave him a sense of pride about what
he had done. And that *is* good for him. So I figured this would be
good. I wish we had so much disposable income I could just hand them
100.00 and say "have fun" but we don't. As I mentioned I have to save
for things I want rather than need. I do jobs myself rather than pay
someone to do something or am very economical at the grocery to eek
out some little extra money. So no, just handing it over isn't really
an option and on top of it all we are saving to take them to Disney
(which they know about) in June for their Star Wars weekend. So
giving them each (I have two boys 9 and 11) 100.00 for a
skateboard/ripper thingy would cut into the vacation money. I suppose
I could give them the option of having one but not the other. Or
getting to go but no souveniers. I just think they will have more fun
at the Disney thing. (AND I discussed this with them and the 9 yr old
is willing to wait until his bday for his ripper 9 yr old DOB 9 Sept
11 yr old 15 Oct) Because the 9 yr old wants that Disney thing and
wants money to spend there. Like I said I wish we had it, but we
don't. I give them little bits of money here and there all the time.
But a big purchase like that is too much for me to swing as
disposable.
>
>
> Anyway, rather than me doing it all, I offered I
> > would pay him to help me. He said "No, I'm not doing that because you
> > will want it done your way and I don't want to put up with that."
>
> I don't blame him. If this is what he believes then its probably
> because it either IS that way or WAS that way. I don't know how long
> you have been unschooling, but he might need time to trust that he can
> do something HIS way.
**Well here's the problem with this...we live on base. And the yard
work needs to be done THEIR way. Not mine. Not his. And if he's not
going to do it up to the code we've agreed to abide by then he's not
really doing it and so there isn't any reason for me to pay him for
helping if he's going to do it his way. I'm OK with the idea that
everything should be what and how he wants with his area, his body,
etc...but we do live with a set of rules and they have to be followed.
So if he's not going to do what the list asks for then he's not
really doing it. He could pick something else from the list I gave
him. AND I gave him the option of not doing anything at all. It was
a choice. Not a command disguised as a choice. But if he chooses to
help with the yard then he has to do what needs to be done. I don't
like the rule either but it is what it is.
> Did it really hurt your feelings? Or were you trying to make a point?
> As a parent, I know that many of things my children say I can't take
> personally. They are children and don't always have the tools to
> express their anger and frustration. I would have left that alone.
> He's is allowed to think your mean without you trying to change his
> mind. That's his CHIOCE.
**Yeah it really did hurt my feelings. I go out of my way, choosing
my words carefully, trying to parent them with more respect than I was
ever shown and for that he goes after me. It did hurt my feelings.
He is allowed to think I'm mean that part didn't bother me. He's been
saying that since he could talk. I also got the "I hate you!" thing
when he was 2. That's normal frustration. But when I'm trying to
help him and he says I'm trying to hurt him then yeah that hurts me.
>>
> It does. I have an interrupter. Big time! I've chosen not to say
> anything anymore. I don't even know if I should. I do know that when
> I let it go. It wasn't a big deal anymore. He's a kid. Kids
> interrupt. I interrupt! Someone told me it was a Northeast thing.
> we all interrupt each other. Ever been to Boston?
**I'm from Boston. But interrupting is a constant problem with him.
And it's not showing others the respect he wants to be shown. If his
brother interrupts him when he's speaking his head blows off. He
hates it. So it's not a foreign concept for him.
> Your mother and husband aren't allowed to form opinions about you
> unless you approve?
**Nope they are allowed to form whatever opinions they want but if
they say something ugly and mean and it hurts my feelings I'm going to
say that it hurt and if they interrupt me, then I'm going to say that
I would like to be shown the same respect I show them.
>
> He thinks so. And his opinion should be valuable to you.
***His opinion is valuable, but it is not the only opinion that
matters here. There are 5 of us. And one can't rule. The "rule"
here is that everyone has the right to feel safe, happy and loved.
And so we try not to do things that make others not feel that way.
Sometimes there is going to be conflict between what two or more
people want but this is a constant thing with him. He's SO high
strung. And wants what he wants all the time. Me too, only I know
that can't happen. His brother too...etc....
> I REALLY hope this helps. It sounds like you have a very intense 11
> year old. So do I! (9) I know how hard and frustrating it can be to
> stay in the now and parent that way you'd like when the emotional
> response is so extreme.
***He uses this extremity against his brother too. So it's something
we have to change. It's not going to serve him well in life. His
interpersonal relationships often suffer because of it. And I want to
see him have better friends and be happier. This really is a
stumbling block for him with others not just me.
Karen
Ren Allen
~~Then he said "You always do that, say
we have a choice when we don't. If I don't help I can't earn extra
money and so you say I have a choice when I don't. You are so mean
that way."~~
I have to agree with him 100%. Based on what you wrote, he is being
treated disrespectfully and with little choice. If he can earn the
money, then you can also budget the money to simply give him. Do the
yardwork together, because you're a team and don't hold him to your
standard.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
we have a choice when we don't. If I don't help I can't earn extra
money and so you say I have a choice when I don't. You are so mean
that way."~~
I have to agree with him 100%. Based on what you wrote, he is being
treated disrespectfully and with little choice. If he can earn the
money, then you can also budget the money to simply give him. Do the
yardwork together, because you're a team and don't hold him to your
standard.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~And we
don't just have the money to give him. ~~
Then how can he earn it? If there is money to pay him for a job, then
there is money to give him. That is just not being honest.
As long as he is seen as a "selfish" person, you are going to have
struggles with him. He is doing the best he can. The parents need to
change the way they see him and be his advocate rather than his enemy.
I don't blame him a bit for being angry.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
don't just have the money to give him. ~~
Then how can he earn it? If there is money to pay him for a job, then
there is money to give him. That is just not being honest.
As long as he is seen as a "selfish" person, you are going to have
struggles with him. He is doing the best he can. The parents need to
change the way they see him and be his advocate rather than his enemy.
I don't blame him a bit for being angry.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~He uses this extremity against his brother too. So it's something
we have to change. It's not going to serve him well in life. His
interpersonal relationships often suffer because of it. And I want to
see him have better friends and be happier. This really is a
stumbling block for him with others not just me.~~
The stumbling block is in the way you view him. You see him as someone
that needs to be changed. You're focused on how to change his
behavior. He knows this. He is not accepted and cherished for exactly
who-he-is right NOW. So he's intense. Some of that intensity would
probably diminish if he felt the adults in his life were on his side,
were there to help him get what he wants/needs.
When you say "it's something we have to change" that is very
worrisome. You can force him to change his behavior just to please
you. That isn't real change. That isn't optimal for unschooling.
Support him in the place he's in TODAY. Most of the problem I am
reading, is about how you view this child and the struggles the adults
are setting up. Quit struggling. Quit working against him. Ask
yourself how you can help him get what he wants rather than set up a
false situation that is not based on truth. If there is money to pay
for a job, you have SOME kind of money to help him out. He's smart. He
knows this is false and sees right through it.
I remember seeing right through that kind of lie adults told me and it
made me a very angry person. He shouldn't have to jump through hoops
to get help. Give him MORE access, not less.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
we have to change. It's not going to serve him well in life. His
interpersonal relationships often suffer because of it. And I want to
see him have better friends and be happier. This really is a
stumbling block for him with others not just me.~~
The stumbling block is in the way you view him. You see him as someone
that needs to be changed. You're focused on how to change his
behavior. He knows this. He is not accepted and cherished for exactly
who-he-is right NOW. So he's intense. Some of that intensity would
probably diminish if he felt the adults in his life were on his side,
were there to help him get what he wants/needs.
When you say "it's something we have to change" that is very
worrisome. You can force him to change his behavior just to please
you. That isn't real change. That isn't optimal for unschooling.
Support him in the place he's in TODAY. Most of the problem I am
reading, is about how you view this child and the struggles the adults
are setting up. Quit struggling. Quit working against him. Ask
yourself how you can help him get what he wants rather than set up a
false situation that is not based on truth. If there is money to pay
for a job, you have SOME kind of money to help him out. He's smart. He
knows this is false and sees right through it.
I remember seeing right through that kind of lie adults told me and it
made me a very angry person. He shouldn't have to jump through hoops
to get help. Give him MORE access, not less.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
swissarmy_wife
> **OK well I had given a list of things he could choose from. And weYou said it to all of us. And your thinking it. Stop making excuses.
> don't just have the money to give him. Plus he's very selfish,
> (something I've noticed but not said to him or anyone else.)
If he is selfish all you can do is model unselfish behavior. You
can't force him to not be selfish.
And he
> doesn't take very good care of his things unless he's worked to getThere his things you need to respect that. My child is quite similar.
> them.
>So I figured it would be good for him all around.You figured wrong. Christmas was on his terms. This time it wasn't.
> Additionally, he saved all his holiday money and bought himself
> something he really wanted and it gave him a sense of pride about
>what he had done. And that *is* good for him. So I figured this
>would be good.
>I wish we had so much disposable income I could just hand themWho does? That's a lot of money. My point was, you were willing to
> 100.00 and say "have fun" but we don't.
pay him fo working in the yard. So you obviously had a few extra
dollars for him. It's not like you were going to use it to pay
someone else right?
>As I mentioned I have to save for things I want rather than need. IYou keep mentioning it and I think you need to visit your own
>do jobs myself rather than pay someone to do something or am very
>economical at the grocery to eek out some little extra money. So no,
>just handing it over isn't really an option and on top of it all we
>are saving to take them to Disney (which they know about) in June for
>their Star Wars weekend.
resentments about your tight budget. Have you ever sat down and
showed him on a piece of paper how your paychecks get divvied up and
why there isn't much left?
>So giving them each (I have two boys 9 and 11) 100.00 for aIf you can't afford a skateboard, then you can't afford a skateboard.
> skateboard/ripper thingy would cut into the vacation money.
You've turned it into an argument. No one has it all. Maybe you
feel guilty. You're trying to force a learning/saving money
experience. It won't work.
> **Well here's the problem with this...we live on base. And the yardThen you follow them. Let him do the yard work to the best of his
> work needs to be done THEIR way. Not mine. Not his. And if he's not
> going to do it up to the code we've agreed to abide by then he's not
> really doing it and so there isn't any reason for me to pay him for
> helping if he's going to do it his way. I'm OK with the idea that
> everything should be what and how he wants with his area, his body,
> etc...but we do live with a set of rules and they have to be followed.
ability at the time. Then YOU pick up the slack. (without complaint)
Your son did not agree to abide by the base rules. YOU DID. Your son
did not choose to live on base. YOU DID. He is frustrated with
your/the bases rules, and you as the mom should be accepting and
loving his help in any form. And if it isn't up to code... then get
outside and make it up to code.
> So if he's not going to do what the list asks for then he's notThis is not a choice. This is "my way or the highway".
> really doing it. He could pick something else from the list I gave
> him. AND I gave him the option of not doing anything at all. It was
> a choice.
> **Yeah it really did hurt my feelings. I go out of my way, choosingThe truth hurts. He's telling you the truth. Someone else already
> my words carefully, trying to parent them with more respect than I was
> ever shown and for that he goes after me. It did hurt my feelings.
> He is allowed to think I'm mean that part didn't bother me. He's been
> saying that since he could talk. I also got the "I hate you!" thing
> when he was 2. That's normal frustration. But when I'm trying to
> help him and he says I'm trying to hurt him then yeah that hurts me.
said it, but your turning his problems into his inadequacy. He feels
your being mean. It's fairly obvious why.
> **I'm from Boston. But interrupting is a constant problem with him.Funny coincidence you being from Boston. you can't force this stuff.
> And it's not showing others the respect he wants to be shown. If
>his brother interrupts him when he's speaking his head blows off.
>He hates it. So it's not a foreign concept for him.
you will only build resentment. He's going to resent you. My guess
is he already does. I bet you interupt HIM to tell him he's
interrupting YOU. While your logic may be telling you one thing, two
wrongs don't make right.
> > Your mother and husband aren't allowed to form opinions about youthey are adults with years of experience in handling their emotions.
> > unless you approve?
>
> **Nope they are allowed to form whatever opinions they want but if
> they say something ugly and mean and it hurts my feelings I'm going to
> say that it hurt and if they interrupt me, then I'm going to say that
> I would like to be shown the same respect I show them.
your child does not have that same experience.
The "rule"
> here is that everyone has the right to feel safe, happy and loved.He doesn't. What are you willing to do to change that.
And wants what he wants all the time. Me too, only I know
> that can't happen. His brother too...etc....Look, your just being argumentative. All children are different. I
will tell you that my 9 year old requires more attention and love and
handholding than my 3 year old. It's just the way things are. I get
frustrated too sometimes. He's really intense. He's fairly
demanding. I'll say it again... all children are different. the
expectation that they should all be the same or act the saem or feel
the same is ridiculous.
> ***He uses this extremity against his brother too. So it's somethingMaybe if you just let it go and quit trying to control him and his
> we have to change. It's not going to serve him well in life. His
> interpersonal relationships often suffer because of it. And I want to
> see him have better friends and be happier. This really is a
> stumbling block for him with others not just me.
feelings and his behaviors he wouldn't feel so overwhelmed with
expectations. Yours are high. I couldn't even live up to them and
I'm a rational (sometimes. hehe) adult.
TALK LESS, DO MORE.
Ren Allen
~~**Nope they are allowed to form whatever opinions they want but if
they say something ugly and mean and it hurts my feelings I'm going to
say that it hurt and if they interrupt me, then I'm going to say that
I would like to be shown the same respect I show them.~~
But he was trying to express his frustration and I doubt he's feeling
safe in being able to do that now. He obviously does NOT want to hurt
his mother's feelings but the first chance he got to express how he
really felt, it got shut down with an emotional outburst from
Mom...taking his feelings personally. He has a right to think you're
mean! A safe home means he's should feel safe in expressing some
difficult feelings he's having towards you too. As adults, we should
have the tools to be a sounding board for them and give them options
for expressing anger and frustration.
What he said did not sound mean to me. It sounded like a frustrated
kiddo that needed to be heard and empathized with. Rather than telling
him how it hurt your feelings, could you not have just reflectively
listened? "So you feel like I'm not being fair?" and explored it
further to help you understand where he's coming from!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
they say something ugly and mean and it hurts my feelings I'm going to
say that it hurt and if they interrupt me, then I'm going to say that
I would like to be shown the same respect I show them.~~
But he was trying to express his frustration and I doubt he's feeling
safe in being able to do that now. He obviously does NOT want to hurt
his mother's feelings but the first chance he got to express how he
really felt, it got shut down with an emotional outburst from
Mom...taking his feelings personally. He has a right to think you're
mean! A safe home means he's should feel safe in expressing some
difficult feelings he's having towards you too. As adults, we should
have the tools to be a sounding board for them and give them options
for expressing anger and frustration.
What he said did not sound mean to me. It sounded like a frustrated
kiddo that needed to be heard and empathized with. Rather than telling
him how it hurt your feelings, could you not have just reflectively
listened? "So you feel like I'm not being fair?" and explored it
further to help you understand where he's coming from!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Karen Swanay
Actually it causes him trouble with his friends. Not with the adults
necessarily. When he freaks out and yells at a friend for something
that is a mistake or yells at a friend that "I'll never play with you
again!" It hurts him in the end. Why do I always feel like you all
think I'm the worst parent in the world when I post here? I want to
help him be a happier person. What makes him happy is to have friends
with whom he gets along. When this extreme behavior causes issues
what do you suggest I do?
Karen
necessarily. When he freaks out and yells at a friend for something
that is a mistake or yells at a friend that "I'll never play with you
again!" It hurts him in the end. Why do I always feel like you all
think I'm the worst parent in the world when I post here? I want to
help him be a happier person. What makes him happy is to have friends
with whom he gets along. When this extreme behavior causes issues
what do you suggest I do?
Karen
Ren Allen
~~>So giving them each (I have two boys 9 and 11) 100.00 for a
listen to what my child wants, brainstorm ideas for helping them get
what they want and give that child $20 towards the skateboard today.
Modeling how to get what we want is a valuable tool for children.
A child that knows you are on their side, a child that knows you WANT
them to have what they want, is a less frustrated child. A child whose
mother sees them as "selfish" is going to act out more, because they
aren't in a safe environment. "Safe" is a big word that has a lot to
do with emotional safety. It should be safe to call someone an asshole
and feel they will listen and try to figure out what will work better.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
> skateboard/ripper thingy would cut into the vacation money.~~Ya know, I couldn't do that right now either. But I can certainly
listen to what my child wants, brainstorm ideas for helping them get
what they want and give that child $20 towards the skateboard today.
Modeling how to get what we want is a valuable tool for children.
A child that knows you are on their side, a child that knows you WANT
them to have what they want, is a less frustrated child. A child whose
mother sees them as "selfish" is going to act out more, because they
aren't in a safe environment. "Safe" is a big word that has a lot to
do with emotional safety. It should be safe to call someone an asshole
and feel they will listen and try to figure out what will work better.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~Why do I always feel like you all
think I'm the worst parent in the world when I post here? ~~
You're not or you wouldn't be here!:)The worst parents wouldn't be
asking questions or caring about the outcome. You obviously care very
much. But there are some big stumbling blocks in your relationship and
the way you view your child that we're trying to point out. Sometimes
it isn't easy to hear....believe me I know this. If you're willing to
stop and reflect, without taking it as a personal attack on who you
are and your love for your child, there is a big opportunity to help
this relationship get better.
We can give you information but we can't make you change.;)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
think I'm the worst parent in the world when I post here? ~~
You're not or you wouldn't be here!:)The worst parents wouldn't be
asking questions or caring about the outcome. You obviously care very
much. But there are some big stumbling blocks in your relationship and
the way you view your child that we're trying to point out. Sometimes
it isn't easy to hear....believe me I know this. If you're willing to
stop and reflect, without taking it as a personal attack on who you
are and your love for your child, there is a big opportunity to help
this relationship get better.
We can give you information but we can't make you change.;)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
swissarmy_wife
The truth hurts. When I first started unschooling and started asking
questions. The answers sometimes made me cry.
It's a journey for all of you. You're spending to much time worrying
about your sons future and what you want for him. If he has a hard
time with a friend. He needs maybe a hug and your support. He
doesn't need you to tell him everything he did wrong. I'm sure he
knows. His extreme behavior, may always be somewhat extreme, as with
my son. He needs you to love him for who he is. How can he have
friends if he can't even find support in his family?
--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
questions. The answers sometimes made me cry.
It's a journey for all of you. You're spending to much time worrying
about your sons future and what you want for him. If he has a hard
time with a friend. He needs maybe a hug and your support. He
doesn't need you to tell him everything he did wrong. I'm sure he
knows. His extreme behavior, may always be somewhat extreme, as with
my son. He needs you to love him for who he is. How can he have
friends if he can't even find support in his family?
--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>
> Actually it causes him trouble with his friends. Not with the adults
> necessarily. When he freaks out and yells at a friend for something
> that is a mistake or yells at a friend that "I'll never play with you
> again!" It hurts him in the end. Why do I always feel like you all
> think I'm the worst parent in the world when I post here? I want to
> help him be a happier person. What makes him happy is to have friends
> with whom he gets along. When this extreme behavior causes issues
> what do you suggest I do?
>
> Karen
>
Karen Swanay
Hey that's unfair. He's not unsupported by his family. Now you are
saying that he's unloved. That is NOT true. When he's blown up at a
friend he gets a hug and we talk about what happened and how he could
have done things differently. What am I supposed to do? Go yell at
the other kid? Make sure all interactions my son has always go his
way? Last night he got angry with a friend for bumping him when they
were playing on the trampoline. He freaked out and screamed at his
BROTHER who wasn't even on the trampoline. So they both come in the
door crying. So I'm supposed to what? Hug John and tell Liam to suck
it up because his brother is intense? Honestly, I do not try to abuse
my kids. I go out of my way to be kind and sensitive to them and
their needs. But there is more than just one of them...and John's
needs and wants can't be more important than everyone else's. He has
to give when he doesn't want to as well as the rest of us. Conflict
usually needs compromise to come to solution. But I didn't deserve
you taking a swipe at my parenting. I don't tell him what he did
wrong. I help him see how things unfolded and how a different
reaction would have yeilded a different result. What am I supposed to
do if that is an unloving and abusive response?
Karen
saying that he's unloved. That is NOT true. When he's blown up at a
friend he gets a hug and we talk about what happened and how he could
have done things differently. What am I supposed to do? Go yell at
the other kid? Make sure all interactions my son has always go his
way? Last night he got angry with a friend for bumping him when they
were playing on the trampoline. He freaked out and screamed at his
BROTHER who wasn't even on the trampoline. So they both come in the
door crying. So I'm supposed to what? Hug John and tell Liam to suck
it up because his brother is intense? Honestly, I do not try to abuse
my kids. I go out of my way to be kind and sensitive to them and
their needs. But there is more than just one of them...and John's
needs and wants can't be more important than everyone else's. He has
to give when he doesn't want to as well as the rest of us. Conflict
usually needs compromise to come to solution. But I didn't deserve
you taking a swipe at my parenting. I don't tell him what he did
wrong. I help him see how things unfolded and how a different
reaction would have yeilded a different result. What am I supposed to
do if that is an unloving and abusive response?
Karen
On Feb 7, 2008 9:35 AM, swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> The truth hurts. When I first started unschooling and started asking
> questions. The answers sometimes made me cry.
>
> It's a journey for all of you. You're spending to much time worrying
> about your sons future and what you want for him. If he has a hard
> time with a friend. He needs maybe a hug and your support. He
> doesn't need you to tell him everything he did wrong. I'm sure he
> knows. His extreme behavior, may always be somewhat extreme, as with
> my son. He needs you to love him for who he is. How can he have
> friends if he can't even find support in his family?
>
> --- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
>
>
> <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
> >
> > Actually it causes him trouble with his friends. Not with the adults
> > necessarily. When he freaks out and yells at a friend for something
> > that is a mistake or yells at a friend that "I'll never play with you
> > again!" It hurts him in the end. Why do I always feel like you all
> > think I'm the worst parent in the world when I post here? I want to
> > help him be a happier person. What makes him happy is to have friends
> > with whom he gets along. When this extreme behavior causes issues
> > what do you suggest I do?
> >
> > Karen
> >
>
>
>
>
swissarmy_wife
I'm sorry your having such a hard time right now. Until you make the
choice to stop taking constructive criticism personally, then no
advice you ask for will do you any good at all.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help to you. your situation is so
familiar to me. I was really hoping i could have helped you.
--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
choice to stop taking constructive criticism personally, then no
advice you ask for will do you any good at all.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help to you. your situation is so
familiar to me. I was really hoping i could have helped you.
--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>with you
> Hey that's unfair. He's not unsupported by his family. Now you are
> saying that he's unloved. That is NOT true. When he's blown up at a
> friend he gets a hug and we talk about what happened and how he could
> have done things differently. What am I supposed to do? Go yell at
> the other kid? Make sure all interactions my son has always go his
> way? Last night he got angry with a friend for bumping him when they
> were playing on the trampoline. He freaked out and screamed at his
> BROTHER who wasn't even on the trampoline. So they both come in the
> door crying. So I'm supposed to what? Hug John and tell Liam to suck
> it up because his brother is intense? Honestly, I do not try to abuse
> my kids. I go out of my way to be kind and sensitive to them and
> their needs. But there is more than just one of them...and John's
> needs and wants can't be more important than everyone else's. He has
> to give when he doesn't want to as well as the rest of us. Conflict
> usually needs compromise to come to solution. But I didn't deserve
> you taking a swipe at my parenting. I don't tell him what he did
> wrong. I help him see how things unfolded and how a different
> reaction would have yeilded a different result. What am I supposed to
> do if that is an unloving and abusive response?
> Karen
>
> On Feb 7, 2008 9:35 AM, swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The truth hurts. When I first started unschooling and started asking
> > questions. The answers sometimes made me cry.
> >
> > It's a journey for all of you. You're spending to much time worrying
> > about your sons future and what you want for him. If he has a hard
> > time with a friend. He needs maybe a hug and your support. He
> > doesn't need you to tell him everything he did wrong. I'm sure he
> > knows. His extreme behavior, may always be somewhat extreme, as with
> > my son. He needs you to love him for who he is. How can he have
> > friends if he can't even find support in his family?
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
> >
> >
> > <luvbullbreeds@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually it causes him trouble with his friends. Not with the adults
> > > necessarily. When he freaks out and yells at a friend for something
> > > that is a mistake or yells at a friend that "I'll never play
> > > again!" It hurts him in the end. Why do I always feel like you allfriends
> > > think I'm the worst parent in the world when I post here? I want to
> > > help him be a happier person. What makes him happy is to have
> > > with whom he gets along. When this extreme behavior causes issues
> > > what do you suggest I do?
> > >
> > > Karen
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Karen Swanay
I posted this...
~~Why do I always feel like you all
think I'm the worst parent in the world when I post here? ~~
Then you said this....
<<The truth hurts>>
***************************************************
That is not constructive criticism. That's hurtful speak. And then
you said he feels that his family doesn't love nor support him. That
is not constructive criticism that's saying I abuse and neglect my
son. He's NOT unloved.
I am listening. I am trying to hear how to balance how to make him
happy all the time and keep everyone else happy all the time
especially when what he wants so often requires others not only to be
unhappy but miserable. Like when he tells his 9 yr old brother that
life would be better if he just died. That's not nice. And it
doesn't mean that John should be cuddled and loved on when he is
hateful to his brother. It's the hardest thing in the world for me to
figure out what to do when one of my kids hurts the other. And FYI
that exchange followed Liam asking John not to throw his things. I
heard Liam ask him in a nice way. And he responds with wishing Liam
was dead??? And when I say that wasn't a nice thing to say he
responds with "well he shouldn't get his feelings hurt by that I'm
just expressing my feelings."
Karen
~~Why do I always feel like you all
think I'm the worst parent in the world when I post here? ~~
Then you said this....
<<The truth hurts>>
***************************************************
That is not constructive criticism. That's hurtful speak. And then
you said he feels that his family doesn't love nor support him. That
is not constructive criticism that's saying I abuse and neglect my
son. He's NOT unloved.
I am listening. I am trying to hear how to balance how to make him
happy all the time and keep everyone else happy all the time
especially when what he wants so often requires others not only to be
unhappy but miserable. Like when he tells his 9 yr old brother that
life would be better if he just died. That's not nice. And it
doesn't mean that John should be cuddled and loved on when he is
hateful to his brother. It's the hardest thing in the world for me to
figure out what to do when one of my kids hurts the other. And FYI
that exchange followed Liam asking John not to throw his things. I
heard Liam ask him in a nice way. And he responds with wishing Liam
was dead??? And when I say that wasn't a nice thing to say he
responds with "well he shouldn't get his feelings hurt by that I'm
just expressing my feelings."
Karen
rebecca de
Hi folks I decided to jump on this thread because even though I don't have a 11 year old that perhaps some of what is being talked about may be something I need to hear also. I didn't expect to find bickering. Now the peace keeper in me wants to come out.
Karen, I have felt this way on groups before -- this one and others I'm on -- matter of fact recently on another group a guy basically told me I should put my son back into school until I get a grip... OUCH I felt hurt, angry, defensive. But I didn't respond right away, I just thought on it, cried, etc. After a bit I excepted that my action did sound "out of control" and later the man said that he had a brother that lost his kids because the mother wouldn't get help for her abusive behavior -- so basically my post set off something inside him -- which I understood completely. I wasn't happy with my ways either that was why I was reaching out for help. Anyway, please , please, try to step back and view your posts and others from an outside angle. When reading Heathers post I truly don't see anything in it that you really didn't say yourself (even in the post before the one below!) Now I don't think the "truth hurts" statement was polite but ??? let it go. I
truly believe that everyone on these lists mean well. Remember also we when just communicating via e-mail many times things can be misinterpreted. We can't hear your voice tones and such ...
Anyway, Karen you are doing the best you can -- and always trying to improve -- just like the rest of us. Take a deep breath surround beautiful white light around you and know that you are one with the divine .... Good.... Now hug yourself and forgive yourself for your actions... no more quilt!! now go hug your kids.
Again, thank you for being willing to speak up and look for solutions. ... Remember though, really search for what is right for your family!!
Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
Hey that's unfair. He's not unsupported by his family. Now you are
saying that he's unloved. That is NOT true. When he's blown up at a
friend he gets a hug and we talk about what happened and how he could
have done things differently. What am I supposed to do? Go yell at
the other kid? Make sure all interactions my son has always go his
way? Last night he got angry with a friend for bumping him when they
were playing on the trampoline. He freaked out and screamed at his
BROTHER who wasn't even on the trampoline. So they both come in the
door crying. So I'm supposed to what? Hug John and tell Liam to suck
it up because his brother is intense? Honestly, I do not try to abuse
my kids. I go out of my way to be kind and sensitive to them and
their needs. But there is more than just one of them...and John's
needs and wants can't be more important than everyone else's. He has
to give when he doesn't want to as well as the rest of us. Conflict
usually needs compromise to come to solution. But I didn't deserve
you taking a swipe at my parenting. I don't tell him what he did
wrong. I help him see how things unfolded and how a different
reaction would have yeilded a different result. What am I supposed to
do if that is an unloving and abusive response?
Karen
Karen, I have felt this way on groups before -- this one and others I'm on -- matter of fact recently on another group a guy basically told me I should put my son back into school until I get a grip... OUCH I felt hurt, angry, defensive. But I didn't respond right away, I just thought on it, cried, etc. After a bit I excepted that my action did sound "out of control" and later the man said that he had a brother that lost his kids because the mother wouldn't get help for her abusive behavior -- so basically my post set off something inside him -- which I understood completely. I wasn't happy with my ways either that was why I was reaching out for help. Anyway, please , please, try to step back and view your posts and others from an outside angle. When reading Heathers post I truly don't see anything in it that you really didn't say yourself (even in the post before the one below!) Now I don't think the "truth hurts" statement was polite but ??? let it go. I
truly believe that everyone on these lists mean well. Remember also we when just communicating via e-mail many times things can be misinterpreted. We can't hear your voice tones and such ...
Anyway, Karen you are doing the best you can -- and always trying to improve -- just like the rest of us. Take a deep breath surround beautiful white light around you and know that you are one with the divine .... Good.... Now hug yourself and forgive yourself for your actions... no more quilt!! now go hug your kids.
Again, thank you for being willing to speak up and look for solutions. ... Remember though, really search for what is right for your family!!
Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
Hey that's unfair. He's not unsupported by his family. Now you are
saying that he's unloved. That is NOT true. When he's blown up at a
friend he gets a hug and we talk about what happened and how he could
have done things differently. What am I supposed to do? Go yell at
the other kid? Make sure all interactions my son has always go his
way? Last night he got angry with a friend for bumping him when they
were playing on the trampoline. He freaked out and screamed at his
BROTHER who wasn't even on the trampoline. So they both come in the
door crying. So I'm supposed to what? Hug John and tell Liam to suck
it up because his brother is intense? Honestly, I do not try to abuse
my kids. I go out of my way to be kind and sensitive to them and
their needs. But there is more than just one of them...and John's
needs and wants can't be more important than everyone else's. He has
to give when he doesn't want to as well as the rest of us. Conflict
usually needs compromise to come to solution. But I didn't deserve
you taking a swipe at my parenting. I don't tell him what he did
wrong. I help him see how things unfolded and how a different
reaction would have yeilded a different result. What am I supposed to
do if that is an unloving and abusive response?
Karen
On Feb 7, 2008 9:35 AM, swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> The truth hurts. When I first started unschooling and started asking
> questions. The answers sometimes made me cry.
>
> It's a journey for all of you. You're spending to much time worrying
> about your sons future and what you want for him. If he has a hard
> time with a friend. He needs maybe a hug and your support. He
> doesn't need you to tell him everything he did wrong. I'm sure he
> knows. His extreme behavior, may always be somewhat extreme, as with
> my son. He needs you to love him for who he is. How can he have
> friends if he can't even find support in his family?
>
> --- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
>
>
> <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
> >
> > Actually it causes him trouble with his friends. Not with the adults
> > necessarily. When he freaks out and yells at a friend for something
> > that is a mistake or yells at a friend that "I'll never play with you
> > again!" It hurts him in the end. Why do I always feel like you all
> > think I'm the worst parent in the world when I post here? I want to
> > help him be a happier person. What makes him happy is to have friends
> > with whom he gets along. When this extreme behavior causes issues
> > what do you suggest I do?
> >
> > Karen
> >
>
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
swissarmy_wife
Well... it does. Although, You seem to have taken it somewhat out of
context.
Take or leave the advice. I'm not here to argue with you.
--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
context.
Take or leave the advice. I'm not here to argue with you.
--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>
> I posted this...
>
> ~~Why do I always feel like you all
> think I'm the worst parent in the world when I post here? ~~
>
> Then you said this....
>
> <<The truth hurts>>
>
> ***************************************************
>
> That is not constructive criticism. That's hurtful speak. And then
> you said he feels that his family doesn't love nor support him. That
> is not constructive criticism that's saying I abuse and neglect my
> son. He's NOT unloved.
>
> I am listening. I am trying to hear how to balance how to make him
> happy all the time and keep everyone else happy all the time
> especially when what he wants so often requires others not only to be
> unhappy but miserable. Like when he tells his 9 yr old brother that
> life would be better if he just died. That's not nice. And it
> doesn't mean that John should be cuddled and loved on when he is
> hateful to his brother. It's the hardest thing in the world for me to
> figure out what to do when one of my kids hurts the other. And FYI
> that exchange followed Liam asking John not to throw his things. I
> heard Liam ask him in a nice way. And he responds with wishing Liam
> was dead??? And when I say that wasn't a nice thing to say he
> responds with "well he shouldn't get his feelings hurt by that I'm
> just expressing my feelings."
>
> Karen
>
Karen Swanay
Thanks Rebecca. I really am trying. It's so very hard when there is
more than one person to make happy, and since I am feeling like I did
something wrong or at least not getting it right I came here for help.
I did not expect someone to tell me I'm a horrible parent. I'm just
going to think about this for a while and muddle through I guess.
Thanks again.
Karen
more than one person to make happy, and since I am feeling like I did
something wrong or at least not getting it right I came here for help.
I did not expect someone to tell me I'm a horrible parent. I'm just
going to think about this for a while and muddle through I guess.
Thanks again.
Karen
Debra Rossing
>And we don't just have the money to give him.So then how are you planning to pay him for something you'd otherwise do
yourself for free? You'd have to be coming up with the money from
somewhere, right? If you can't afford to -give- him the money, then you
can't afford to -pay- him for his work. If you've got $10 to pay him for
yard work, you've got $10 to give him toward what he wants.
>But if he chooses to help with the yard then he has to do what needs tobe done. I don't like the rule either but it is what it is.
Does he know WHY things are the way they are (as in, do they give you a
list when you move in saying "This is how to mow the lawn")? Does it
really have to be done in a certain way or does it just have to have a
certain outcome? For instance, mowing can be done around in
decreasing/increasing circles, in horizontal lines, vertical lines,
criss-cross (like baseball outfields) - does it have to be done in a
particular way or does it just have to be done once per week during the
specified season (or year round if you're in a warmer climate) and cut
to a certain height?
>The "rule" here is that everyone has the right to feel safe, happy andloved.
Then it sounds like you "broke" the rule - he didn't feel safe, happy
and loved in your exchange.
Deb
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swissarmy_wife
I swore i would not respond anymore. And I swear it will be the last
if it remains confrontational. it's not my intentions at all.
NO ONE told you were a horrible parent. That is what you chose to
hear out of what I said. When I said "the truth hurts" I was
referring to everything that was said to help you that you argued or
responded negatively to. I was referring to the fact that you were
obviously bothered by our answers (especially mine I guess). the
truth does hurt! and a lot! I should know! Especially when you hit
that realization that you have done something contrary to your beliefs
and what you would like. I'm awfully sorry that i hurt your feelings.
You shouldn't take what I am saying so personally. I don't mean it
that way.
honesty is something that everyone asks for, but no one really wants
to hear
--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
if it remains confrontational. it's not my intentions at all.
NO ONE told you were a horrible parent. That is what you chose to
hear out of what I said. When I said "the truth hurts" I was
referring to everything that was said to help you that you argued or
responded negatively to. I was referring to the fact that you were
obviously bothered by our answers (especially mine I guess). the
truth does hurt! and a lot! I should know! Especially when you hit
that realization that you have done something contrary to your beliefs
and what you would like. I'm awfully sorry that i hurt your feelings.
You shouldn't take what I am saying so personally. I don't mean it
that way.
honesty is something that everyone asks for, but no one really wants
to hear
--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Rebecca. I really am trying. It's so very hard when there is
> more than one person to make happy, and since I am feeling like I did
> something wrong or at least not getting it right I came here for help.
> I did not expect someone to tell me I'm a horrible parent. I'm just
> going to think about this for a while and muddle through I guess.
> Thanks again.
> Karen
>
rebecca de
Karen,
I completely understand this. We are trying!! I think you need to muddle only over what you want and let go of the hurt you feel by words. I don't think anyone was saying you are a horrible parent -- I think we ( I say we because that is how I have felt at times with various postings towards me -- and to tell the truth I haven't been posting too much on any group lately in fear of this...) but I think what is reallllly happening is that you are not happy either with your response --hence why you posted for advice. So as stated before -- chin up forgive your actions and know that you will make a better choice next time...
Hey if it makes you feel in better -- I screamed at my 5 year old today because I keep asking him not to pick on his brother (whose 2) and I just blew. Not cool but I did -- so now we've talked and I'm back to reflecting how not to do that!!
Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
Thanks Rebecca. I really am trying. It's so very hard when there is
more than one person to make happy, and since I am feeling like I did
something wrong or at least not getting it right I came here for help.
I did not expect someone to tell me I'm a horrible parent. I'm just
going to think about this for a while and muddle through I guess.
Thanks again.
Karen
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I completely understand this. We are trying!! I think you need to muddle only over what you want and let go of the hurt you feel by words. I don't think anyone was saying you are a horrible parent -- I think we ( I say we because that is how I have felt at times with various postings towards me -- and to tell the truth I haven't been posting too much on any group lately in fear of this...) but I think what is reallllly happening is that you are not happy either with your response --hence why you posted for advice. So as stated before -- chin up forgive your actions and know that you will make a better choice next time...
Hey if it makes you feel in better -- I screamed at my 5 year old today because I keep asking him not to pick on his brother (whose 2) and I just blew. Not cool but I did -- so now we've talked and I'm back to reflecting how not to do that!!
Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
Thanks Rebecca. I really am trying. It's so very hard when there is
more than one person to make happy, and since I am feeling like I did
something wrong or at least not getting it right I came here for help.
I did not expect someone to tell me I'm a horrible parent. I'm just
going to think about this for a while and muddle through I guess.
Thanks again.
Karen
---------------------------------
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Nance Confer
In another scenario, if you have the money to give
him for yard work, why don't you you just let him have it?
********
Exactly what I was thinking.
I know my kids know I really don't have the money when I tell them I don't. That's the reality in a lot of homes.
But I don't suddenly have the money if they do something I want them to do.
If you want him to help you with the yardwork, why not just ask him to help? I don't have any sort of regular chores for anyone in the house but if I'm trying to do something and need a hand, I ask. "Hey, tall guy (everyone in this darned house is taller than me! :) ), could you reach that down from the shelf for me?" "Honey, could you please move the palm fronds out to the curb for the trash? (who knew they were so heavy??)"
More like I would ask anyone who was standing there for help. Not just because I can either withhold money or not.
I just came home from picking up the nephew we babysit. As I was leaving, I told DD that there was a load of clothes in the dryer and it included some of her things. If she wanted something, she could get the load of laundry out.
I see that she has dressed and did not take the clothes out of the dryer. So, eventually, I'll get to it. Or she will if she thinks of it. Or the baby and I will play "laundry" later -- not a method known for its efficiency, btw. :)
But it wasn't DD's chore to take the laundry out of the dryer and it would have been insulting to her to suggest that I would pay her to do such a simple thing that's really just a matter of who needs the clothes.
Too much info? :)
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
him for yard work, why don't you you just let him have it?
********
Exactly what I was thinking.
I know my kids know I really don't have the money when I tell them I don't. That's the reality in a lot of homes.
But I don't suddenly have the money if they do something I want them to do.
If you want him to help you with the yardwork, why not just ask him to help? I don't have any sort of regular chores for anyone in the house but if I'm trying to do something and need a hand, I ask. "Hey, tall guy (everyone in this darned house is taller than me! :) ), could you reach that down from the shelf for me?" "Honey, could you please move the palm fronds out to the curb for the trash? (who knew they were so heavy??)"
More like I would ask anyone who was standing there for help. Not just because I can either withhold money or not.
I just came home from picking up the nephew we babysit. As I was leaving, I told DD that there was a load of clothes in the dryer and it included some of her things. If she wanted something, she could get the load of laundry out.
I see that she has dressed and did not take the clothes out of the dryer. So, eventually, I'll get to it. Or she will if she thinks of it. Or the baby and I will play "laundry" later -- not a method known for its efficiency, btw. :)
But it wasn't DD's chore to take the laundry out of the dryer and it would have been insulting to her to suggest that I would pay her to do such a simple thing that's really just a matter of who needs the clothes.
Too much info? :)
Nance
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Kathleen Gehrke
--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
The folks on this list are trying to reflect how perhaps your reaction
made your son feel. They, or he did not say you were horrible.
Sometimes in our best efforts for our kids we get our own stuff wrapped
up in it.
They, these unschooling mamas,are giving you feedback from an
unschooling perspective. If you were on a mainstream homeschooling
group the reaction would have been entirely different. But you asked
for an unschooling thought from radical unschooling folks. They have
lots of wisdom. NOT conventional thought, but what folks here have
determined to be a better choice for their families and kids. It is not
easy. It requires we look at things in a new light.
No one here is personally attacking you. They are simply looking at the
situation from an unschooling or a child centered position and
reflecting that to you. That is what you asked for. It is NOT an attack
on you at all.
You are a mother who loves her kid and wants what is best for him. No
one doubts that. The information shared on this list is for the benefit
of all of us.
I sometimes get into some of the very same mindsets and need to be
shaken loose and refocused on what my philosophy and thoughts are on
parenting, homeschooling/unschooling and respect. I have to question
myself and my own learned reactions to get where I want to be.
AND btw it is an ongoing process for all of us.
Kathleen
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>Karen you are the only one who said you are a horrible parent.
> Thanks Rebecca. I really am trying. It's so very hard when there is
> more than one person to make happy, and since I am feeling like I did
> something wrong or at least not getting it right I came here for help.
> I did not expect someone to tell me I'm a horrible parent. I'm just
> going to think about this for a while and muddle through I guess.
> Thanks again.
> Karen
>
The folks on this list are trying to reflect how perhaps your reaction
made your son feel. They, or he did not say you were horrible.
Sometimes in our best efforts for our kids we get our own stuff wrapped
up in it.
They, these unschooling mamas,are giving you feedback from an
unschooling perspective. If you were on a mainstream homeschooling
group the reaction would have been entirely different. But you asked
for an unschooling thought from radical unschooling folks. They have
lots of wisdom. NOT conventional thought, but what folks here have
determined to be a better choice for their families and kids. It is not
easy. It requires we look at things in a new light.
No one here is personally attacking you. They are simply looking at the
situation from an unschooling or a child centered position and
reflecting that to you. That is what you asked for. It is NOT an attack
on you at all.
You are a mother who loves her kid and wants what is best for him. No
one doubts that. The information shared on this list is for the benefit
of all of us.
I sometimes get into some of the very same mindsets and need to be
shaken loose and refocused on what my philosophy and thoughts are on
parenting, homeschooling/unschooling and respect. I have to question
myself and my own learned reactions to get where I want to be.
AND btw it is an ongoing process for all of us.
Kathleen
carenkh
Hi, Karen -
I want to invite you to take a deep, deep breath - 3 of them, in fact,
right from your tummy. Nice, slow breaths.
I can see when you read "he feels unsupported" you heard "he *is*
unloved". See the difference in those 2 statements? No one here is
saying you don't love your child. *He feels* unsupported and unheard.
He clearly told you that. Instead of beating your head against the
wall of "But he is loved! He is supported! He should see that!", can
you try to see things from his view? Can you believe his words, and go
from there? Instead of pointing out to him how wrong his words are.
I also want to challenge you to focus on the one issue you brought
here, him wanting something. Can you let go of fears about how his
friends treat him/he treats his friends for now? I *know* you feel
they're connected, that one thing leads to another. But I believe if
you can temporarily let go of *all* the other issues, and just focus
on this one thing - the exchange you had about him wanting something -
lots of clarity can come.
Also - it would serve you, and your whole family, very well if you
drop the whole idea that it's your job to make everyone happy. I can't
write more about that now, but I hope someone else has time. This is
important. It is not your job to *make* anyone, and certainly not
everyone, happy.
peace to you,
Caren
I want to invite you to take a deep, deep breath - 3 of them, in fact,
right from your tummy. Nice, slow breaths.
I can see when you read "he feels unsupported" you heard "he *is*
unloved". See the difference in those 2 statements? No one here is
saying you don't love your child. *He feels* unsupported and unheard.
He clearly told you that. Instead of beating your head against the
wall of "But he is loved! He is supported! He should see that!", can
you try to see things from his view? Can you believe his words, and go
from there? Instead of pointing out to him how wrong his words are.
I also want to challenge you to focus on the one issue you brought
here, him wanting something. Can you let go of fears about how his
friends treat him/he treats his friends for now? I *know* you feel
they're connected, that one thing leads to another. But I believe if
you can temporarily let go of *all* the other issues, and just focus
on this one thing - the exchange you had about him wanting something -
lots of clarity can come.
Also - it would serve you, and your whole family, very well if you
drop the whole idea that it's your job to make everyone happy. I can't
write more about that now, but I hope someone else has time. This is
important. It is not your job to *make* anyone, and certainly not
everyone, happy.
peace to you,
Caren
Kathleen Gehrke
>I think he has a great sense of justice. It is tough for me when my
> ~~Then he said "You always do that, say
> we have a choice when we don't. If I don't help I can't earn extra
> money and so you say I have a choice when I don't. You are so mean
> that way."~~
kids call me on my control issues;[. I always step back and feel hurt
too.. But when I look I usually find their perspective legitimate.
Kathleen
Nance Confer
**11 sounds easy compared to being the parent in these scenarios! :)
**First, it is not your job to "make him happy all the time" or "keep everyone else happy all the time."
I am listening. I am trying to hear how to balance how to make him
happy all the time and keep everyone else happy all the time
especially when what he wants so often requires others not only to be
unhappy but miserable. Like when he tells his 9 yr old brother that
life would be better if he just died. That's not nice. And it
doesn't mean that John should be cuddled and loved on when he is
hateful to his brother. It's the hardest thing in the world for me to
figure out what to do when one of my kids hurts the other.
**Maybe you've told this story before and I didn't see it then but it does seem like a lot of scenes are being thrown into the discussion here -- all jumbled together -- and it sounds like you, Mom, are the one having a hard time.
**Not to sound too condescending. . . I don't want to minimize how you feel when this sort of thing happens and you have the urge to "fix" it. But it is not your place to figure out what to do when one kid hurts another. You will never be able to come up with the "just right" phrase or rule that will prevent one brother from upsetting the other.
And FYI
that exchange followed Liam asking John not to throw his things. I
heard Liam ask him in a nice way. And he responds with wishing Liam
was dead??? And when I say that wasn't a nice thing to say he
responds with "well he shouldn't get his feelings hurt by that I'm
just expressing my feelings."
Karen
**This is out of context for me as I don't know the whole story but I think it would get a "don't be an asshole" comment from me if anyone said that sort of thing to me. Someone has told John it is OK for him to "express his feeling?" Yep, that's OK. It is not OK to be cruel to others though. Or to hide behind saying it was "just a joke." And people who do that should be called on it.
**But that's not to say that John isn't a good person or that he needs to be "changed" or anything as disrespectful sounding as that. Maybe he just needs to have enough life experience to see that this sort of outburst is not productive. Maybe he will never be a diplomat. :) But he's only 11 and just figuring all of this out.
**And if Mom hasn't figured it out yet -- and it does sound like many of these things upset you and you carry resentment about them -- when to let go and let kids sort things out themselves, when to accept one personality is not as adorable as the next, when to have hurt feelings about what a kid says and when to suck it up and realize he's just a kid -- imagine how hard it is for the 11-year-old in the picture.
**Maybe a less stressful thing than saving for a vacation you can't afford would help? Maybe clear and repeated explanations about the rules on yardwork not being anyone's choice but the rules of the military? Maybe an acceptance than trying to live as unschoolers is not a perfect fit with the military but you are all in this together and trying to see how well you can all live together, for each other?
**There is so much that comes out every time you post another snippet that it is hard to know what sort of input you want or need. But it doesn't sound to me that all of the issues are about being 11.
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
**First, it is not your job to "make him happy all the time" or "keep everyone else happy all the time."
I am listening. I am trying to hear how to balance how to make him
happy all the time and keep everyone else happy all the time
especially when what he wants so often requires others not only to be
unhappy but miserable. Like when he tells his 9 yr old brother that
life would be better if he just died. That's not nice. And it
doesn't mean that John should be cuddled and loved on when he is
hateful to his brother. It's the hardest thing in the world for me to
figure out what to do when one of my kids hurts the other.
**Maybe you've told this story before and I didn't see it then but it does seem like a lot of scenes are being thrown into the discussion here -- all jumbled together -- and it sounds like you, Mom, are the one having a hard time.
**Not to sound too condescending. . . I don't want to minimize how you feel when this sort of thing happens and you have the urge to "fix" it. But it is not your place to figure out what to do when one kid hurts another. You will never be able to come up with the "just right" phrase or rule that will prevent one brother from upsetting the other.
And FYI
that exchange followed Liam asking John not to throw his things. I
heard Liam ask him in a nice way. And he responds with wishing Liam
was dead??? And when I say that wasn't a nice thing to say he
responds with "well he shouldn't get his feelings hurt by that I'm
just expressing my feelings."
Karen
**This is out of context for me as I don't know the whole story but I think it would get a "don't be an asshole" comment from me if anyone said that sort of thing to me. Someone has told John it is OK for him to "express his feeling?" Yep, that's OK. It is not OK to be cruel to others though. Or to hide behind saying it was "just a joke." And people who do that should be called on it.
**But that's not to say that John isn't a good person or that he needs to be "changed" or anything as disrespectful sounding as that. Maybe he just needs to have enough life experience to see that this sort of outburst is not productive. Maybe he will never be a diplomat. :) But he's only 11 and just figuring all of this out.
**And if Mom hasn't figured it out yet -- and it does sound like many of these things upset you and you carry resentment about them -- when to let go and let kids sort things out themselves, when to accept one personality is not as adorable as the next, when to have hurt feelings about what a kid says and when to suck it up and realize he's just a kid -- imagine how hard it is for the 11-year-old in the picture.
**Maybe a less stressful thing than saving for a vacation you can't afford would help? Maybe clear and repeated explanations about the rules on yardwork not being anyone's choice but the rules of the military? Maybe an acceptance than trying to live as unschoolers is not a perfect fit with the military but you are all in this together and trying to see how well you can all live together, for each other?
**There is so much that comes out every time you post another snippet that it is hard to know what sort of input you want or need. But it doesn't sound to me that all of the issues are about being 11.
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alysia
"**Well here's the problem with this...we live on base. And the yard
work needs to be done THEIR way. Not mine. Not his. And if he's not
going to do it up to the code we've agreed to abide by then he's not
really doing it and so there isn't any reason for me to pay him for
helping if he's going to do it his way. I'm OK with the idea that
everything should be what and how he wants with his area, his body,
etc...but we do live with a set of rules and they have to be followed.
So if he's not going to do what the list asks for then he's not
really doing it. He could pick something else from the list I gave
him. AND I gave him the option of not doing anything at all. It was
a choice. Not a command disguised as a choice. But if he chooses to
help with the yard then he has to do what needs to be done. I don't
like the rule either but it is what it is."
I wonder if the rule about how the lawn has to be done is as rigid as you think. We've lived on two bases and never kept the yard the way it was supposed to be kept all the time and never really had a problem. We got a few notices at the first base when the grass got too tall but we still never really got in any trouble. When I showed those to my ds he was much more willing to mow the lawn right away than when I nagged and nagged at him that it had to be done. Even then, though, it was never done perfectly but we never got any notices about that.
Alysia
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work needs to be done THEIR way. Not mine. Not his. And if he's not
going to do it up to the code we've agreed to abide by then he's not
really doing it and so there isn't any reason for me to pay him for
helping if he's going to do it his way. I'm OK with the idea that
everything should be what and how he wants with his area, his body,
etc...but we do live with a set of rules and they have to be followed.
So if he's not going to do what the list asks for then he's not
really doing it. He could pick something else from the list I gave
him. AND I gave him the option of not doing anything at all. It was
a choice. Not a command disguised as a choice. But if he chooses to
help with the yard then he has to do what needs to be done. I don't
like the rule either but it is what it is."
I wonder if the rule about how the lawn has to be done is as rigid as you think. We've lived on two bases and never kept the yard the way it was supposed to be kept all the time and never really had a problem. We got a few notices at the first base when the grass got too tall but we still never really got in any trouble. When I showed those to my ds he was much more willing to mow the lawn right away than when I nagged and nagged at him that it had to be done. Even then, though, it was never done perfectly but we never got any notices about that.
Alysia
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Alysia
"**OK well I had given a list of things he could choose from. And we
don't just have the money to give him. Plus he's very selfish,
(something I've noticed but not said to him or anyone else.) And he
doesn't take very good care of his things unless he's worked to get
them. So I figured it would be good for him all around.
Additionally, he saved all his holiday money and bought himself
something he really wanted and it gave him a sense of pride about what
he had done. And that *is* good for him. So I figured this would be
good. I wish we had so much disposable income I could just hand them
100.00 and say "have fun" but we don't. As I mentioned I have to save
for things I want rather than need. I do jobs myself rather than pay
someone to do something or am very economical at the grocery to eek
out some little extra money. So no, just handing it over isn't really
an option and on top of it all we are saving to take them to Disney
(which they know about) in June for their Star Wars weekend. So
giving them each (I have two boys 9 and 11) 100.00 for a
skateboard/ripper thingy would cut into the vacation money. I suppose
I could give them the option of having one but not the other. Or
getting to go but no souveniers. I just think they will have more fun
at the Disney thing. (AND I discussed this with them and the 9 yr old
is willing to wait until his bday for his ripper 9 yr old DOB 9 Sept
11 yr old 15 Oct) Because the 9 yr old wants that Disney thing and
wants money to spend there. Like I said I wish we had it, but we
don't. I give them little bits of money here and there all the time.
But a big purchase like that is too much for me to swing as
disposable."
I see a lot in here about what YOU think is best or would be the most fun but not what your ds really wants. That could be very different. It can also be very different from what his brother wants. That doesn't make it any less valid.
He's probably old enough that you could sit down with him and show him how your budget works, money vs. money out, how and where you save money by doing things yourself, how you pay yourself for those jobs. Then ask him if there are things he thinks he could do or cut back on to save the money for the thing he wants.
Alysia
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don't just have the money to give him. Plus he's very selfish,
(something I've noticed but not said to him or anyone else.) And he
doesn't take very good care of his things unless he's worked to get
them. So I figured it would be good for him all around.
Additionally, he saved all his holiday money and bought himself
something he really wanted and it gave him a sense of pride about what
he had done. And that *is* good for him. So I figured this would be
good. I wish we had so much disposable income I could just hand them
100.00 and say "have fun" but we don't. As I mentioned I have to save
for things I want rather than need. I do jobs myself rather than pay
someone to do something or am very economical at the grocery to eek
out some little extra money. So no, just handing it over isn't really
an option and on top of it all we are saving to take them to Disney
(which they know about) in June for their Star Wars weekend. So
giving them each (I have two boys 9 and 11) 100.00 for a
skateboard/ripper thingy would cut into the vacation money. I suppose
I could give them the option of having one but not the other. Or
getting to go but no souveniers. I just think they will have more fun
at the Disney thing. (AND I discussed this with them and the 9 yr old
is willing to wait until his bday for his ripper 9 yr old DOB 9 Sept
11 yr old 15 Oct) Because the 9 yr old wants that Disney thing and
wants money to spend there. Like I said I wish we had it, but we
don't. I give them little bits of money here and there all the time.
But a big purchase like that is too much for me to swing as
disposable."
I see a lot in here about what YOU think is best or would be the most fun but not what your ds really wants. That could be very different. It can also be very different from what his brother wants. That doesn't make it any less valid.
He's probably old enough that you could sit down with him and show him how your budget works, money vs. money out, how and where you save money by doing things yourself, how you pay yourself for those jobs. Then ask him if there are things he thinks he could do or cut back on to save the money for the thing he wants.
Alysia
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb
--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
not the same as saying you abuse and neglect him. Saying he FEELS
unloved and unsupported is his Truth, right now. You love him dearly -
if you didn't, this wouldn't be a struggle. BUT his world, his
perspective, in the here and now is that you are trying to fix him and
make him do things your way (and again that is apparently what HIS
VIEW is) rather than helping him get what he's wanting. Perception is
HUGE! Just as you are *perceiving* that you were told that you abuse
and neglect your son when NO ONE said that.
--Deb
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
> you said he feels that his family doesn't love nor support him.NO that is not the same - saying he doesn't FEEL loved or supported is
>That
> is not constructive criticism that's saying I abuse and neglect my
> son. He's NOT unloved.
>
not the same as saying you abuse and neglect him. Saying he FEELS
unloved and unsupported is his Truth, right now. You love him dearly -
if you didn't, this wouldn't be a struggle. BUT his world, his
perspective, in the here and now is that you are trying to fix him and
make him do things your way (and again that is apparently what HIS
VIEW is) rather than helping him get what he's wanting. Perception is
HUGE! Just as you are *perceiving* that you were told that you abuse
and neglect your son when NO ONE said that.
--Deb