Robert Saxon

Last night was really bad for me, but my kids were wonderful.

While DW and I were in the middle of some oh-so-important things (note the
sarcasm here), dd#2 came up to me and said that she needed some Mommy &
Daddy time. We put her off "for a few minutes." I made a phone call to my
own father, and while talking with him, dd#1 came in a few minutes later and
said that she needed me "right now!" I asked what was wrong, and she said
that dd2 wouldn't share the cheese crackers. I said that I'd be in in a
minute. I wasn't. 5-10 minutes later dd1 is upset b/c dd2 has eaten
everything.

I had let myself get stressed before this, and for some reason I went
hurtling off the deep end screaming "cannonball!". Well, I did some yelling
at dd2, anyway. Not proud of myself a-tall.

I told them about how bad I felt for ignoring them and for yelling, and
apologized to both of them as well. (The conversation was a bit more
substantive than this, but that's the gist.) And both tried to make ME feel
better when I was the one being an idiot. Wish I'd been able to de-school
myself and do a lot of this before I had kids so they wouldn't have to put
up with all this baggage of mine.

So why tell y'all all this? I suppose it's to re-iterate that when we do
screw up, there's a good chance they'll give us another one (another chance,
that is).

Sometimes I don't deserve my own kids.

Comments and questions are most welcome.

--Rob
DH to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Genevieve for 5.75 years, Elissa for 4.5 years


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>>So why tell y'all all this? I suppose it's to re-iterate that when we do
screw up, there's a good chance they'll give us another one (another chance,
that is).

Sometimes I don't deserve my own kids.<<<

Rob, thanks for posting this. You helped so many people here you won't
believe it. Because unschooling isn't dependent on being perfect, and every one of
us f*&ks up. And kids know that and they love us and if we apologize and try
to do better next time they forgive us, too.

It's easy to mess up. I'm sure the cracker incident felt like it could wait
a couple of minutes. And you're going to mess up on something else, again. And
it's going to be okay. And your kids are learning that their parents can
mess up and take responsibility for it, and if they mess up, it'll also be okay.

It's easy for long time unschoolers to get the "well, of course it works for
you -- you/your child is exceptional." One of the things I hear a lot is
"we'd just fight all the time." I explain that they might fight at first, but
when you don't have to rush out to the next thing you can deal with the conflict
and move on.

Thank you for sharing this story, and thanks for being a good dad.

Kathryn



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~Wish I'd been able to de-school myself and do a lot of this before I
had kids so they wouldn't have to put up with all this baggage of mine.~~

I completely second that sentiment! We were having a discussion last
night about the way things used to be in our house (controlled tv,
grounding etc..) and it really hurt me to hear the kids tell about
things dh and I had done. ugh. I really prefer to block a lot of that
from my mind because it's hard to believe we were that way.

I still screw up. They still forgive me. Lucky for all of us, I'm
really ok with being called out on my behavior now. Our children are
SO wise and so willing to show us a better way if we pay attention.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

The Victors

I have a question pertaining to this post. I still control the TV and I
still ground. In you all�s opinion, should I not be doing these things? I
am stuck in child lead learning/ getting a schedule and ciriculum started
limbo and not sure where to go from here.

My kids sit around and play and watch TV all day. Is this good, bad? I am
really having some self-doubting moments right now. It seems unschooling
myself is turning out to be extremely hard and borderline impossible.



HELP! And yes, I am breathing, just trying to figure out where to step next
without falling through the cracks.



Melissa V





~~Wish I'd been able to de-school myself and do a lot of this before I
had kids so they wouldn't have to put up with all this baggage of mine.~~

I completely second that sentiment! We were having a discussion last
night about the way things used to be in our house (controlled tv,
grounding etc..) and it really hurt me to hear the kids tell about
things dh and I had done. ugh. I really prefer to block a lot of that
from my mind because it's hard to believe we were that way.

I still screw up. They still forgive me. Lucky for all of us, I'm
really ok with being called out on my behavior now. Our children are
SO wise and so willing to show us a better way if we pay attention.

Ren
learninginfreedom.-com













Melissa V.





The LORD replied:

"My son, my precious child,
I love you and I would never leave you.
During your times of trial and suffering,
when you see only one set of footprints,
it was then that I carried you."




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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1010 - Release Date: 9/15/2007
7:54 PM




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 17, 2007, at 8:01 PM, The Victors wrote:

> I have a question pertaining to this post. I still control the TV
> and I
> still ground.

I think you should figure out why we think you shouldn't control tv
or punish.

> In you all�s opinion, should I not be doing these things? I
> am stuck in child lead learning/ getting a schedule and ciriculum
> started
> limbo and not sure where to go from here.

We don't do "child-led learning" - that is misleading in that implies
that the parents sit back and wait for kids to "take the lead." But
there is more to unschooling that that - it is more like a dance in
which the child sometimes leads, the parent sometimes leads, and most
of the time the dance flows so seamlessly that it is impossible to
say that either is really leading.

In her new book, Mary Griffith called is "collaborative" living -
I love that term.
>
> My kids sit around and play and watch TV all day.

"Sit around?" That's an insult, right? So how about you rephrase that
to say, "My kids love to play and watch tv."

> Is this good, bad?

That they do what they love?

> I am
> really having some self-doubting moments right now. It seems
> unschooling
> myself is turning out to be extremely hard and borderline impossible.

Read read read - think some and read some more. One really good
exercise is to pretend you are all on vacation - keep a sort of
"travel diary" <G> - meaning observe your kids and think really hard
about what they're learning from their leisure time activities. After
a while, you'll realize that they are always learning.

-pam

>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Hampton

The best question for you would be - why are you controlling the tv and punishing?

the more you control the more it is wanted-needed-desired

the more you let go the more they have the CHOICE to do ANYTHING- including watching tv.

tv is not better or worse then say- reading a book- if they were reading all day would you tell them to go watch tv

we live in an electronic time and electronics have been demonized for no reason-

why are you not trusting them to make their own choices?

What are you grounding them for? at our house there are no punishments and no rules- "misbehavior" is seen as a time to teach about stuff and we work it out and find something that works for everyone- my 4 yr old will tell her friends who are 6 and 8 that they can work it out and she comes up with an acceptable solution- she still lashes out when she has the need to but that is not punished either and it is way less than before unschooling

hope that helps I have to run
----- Original Message -----
From: The Victors<mailto:dvictor1@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 9:01 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Kids did fine, I was awful


I have a question pertaining to this post. I still control the TV and I
still ground. In you all's opinion, should I not be doing these things? I
am stuck in child lead learning/ getting a schedule and ciriculum started
limbo and not sure where to go from here.

My kids sit around and play and watch TV all day. Is this good, bad? I am
really having some self-doubting moments right now. It seems unschooling
myself is turning out to be extremely hard and borderline impossible.



HELP! And yes, I am breathing, just trying to figure out where to step next
without falling through the cracks.



Melissa V





~~Wish I'd been able to de-school myself and do a lot of this before I
had kids so they wouldn't have to put up with all this baggage of mine.~~

I completely second that sentiment! We were having a discussion last
night about the way things used to be in our house (controlled tv,
grounding etc..) and it really hurt me to hear the kids tell about
things dh and I had done. ugh. I really prefer to block a lot of that
from my mind because it's hard to believe we were that way.

I still screw up. They still forgive me. Lucky for all of us, I'm
really ok with being called out on my behavior now. Our children are
SO wise and so willing to show us a better way if we pay attention.

Ren
learninginfreedom.-com













Melissa V.





The LORD replied:

"My son, my precious child,
I love you and I would never leave you.
During your times of trial and suffering,
when you see only one set of footprints,
it was then that I carried you."




No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1010 - Release Date: 9/15/2007
7:54 PM




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 17, 2007, at 11:01 PM, The Victors wrote:

> My kids sit around and play and watch TV all day. Is this good, bad?

The very best way you can understand is to answer the question
yourself. Of course your head is full of all the counter arguments
that are so common in our society. If you read here:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

that will give your a perspective on the other side.

The thing is that all the counter arguments are based on what people
*fear* will happen, not on actual knowledge. The arguments *do* make
sense. It sure feels like a real possibility that when given the
freedom to do nothing but watch TV that that's what kids would do.
(It makes sense because we have the sneaking suspicion that if we
could live a life of leisure with no responsibilities that that's
exactly what we would do. ;-) And stay up all night. And eat cake for
breakfast!)

What unschoolers have is experience with giving kids the freedoms
that people fear will have horrible consequences. We know that when
kids live life with TV as just another thing to do, that it doesn't
consume them any more than building with Legos does.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

seccotine_ch

> tv is not better or worse then say- reading a book- if they were
reading all day would you tell them to go watch tv
>

*~*~*~*~*~*

About watching TV vs. reading

I remember from my English literature course (yes, I did some, at the
University, I know you wouldn't tell from my nice prose, but well ...)
that when the first novels came out, they have a terrible reputation
and were accused to have the worst influence on people imagination.
They were not serious enough, what books should be. And they were
encouraging idleness.

When you look at people watching TV or people reading, you could say
similar things about both activities. I'm sure that most of the
arguments against TV could be used, without being much modified,
against reading fiction.

As a child, I was reading all the time and maybe it was not so good,
maybe it was a time-consuming activity and it may have prevented me
from doing other interesting things ... I'm still a very "cerebral"
person, having mostly fun with written things and needing sometimes to
bea bit pushed to get out of my home (couch/computer) ... Unschooling
is really good for me, at this level :) But it didn't bother anybody,
because books are so positively seen, because they are "cultural"
objects ...

My youngest daughter, who is 2, has seen a lot of TV and she has an
amazing memory of proper nouns. I don't know if I'm right, but I have
the feeling that there is a connection between the two things.

Helen

carenkh

My apologies if this has been posted before - this is one of my
favorite articles from Ode Magazine:

http://www.odemagazine.com/doc/36/if_games_had_come_before_books

That whole issue (September 2006 - http://www.odemagazine.com/doc/36)
would be worth ordering as a back issue - lots of good stuff in there!

peace,
Caren



--- In [email protected], "seccotine_ch"
<seccotine@...> wrote:
>when the first novels came out, they have a terrible reputation
> and were accused to have the worst influence on people imagination.