[email protected]

My reply is long and has lots to read and think about. Take it in small doses, if necessary!

My dd was a lot like Emilie's at 4 (minus the sensitivity to seams, but with a sensitivity to loud noises). I only have one child - I wondered why my little one was so different from others' kids, especially since we attachment parented and did all the same things our contemporaries did - and I had no other to compare her to. One of my friends had the most easy-going baby and child - she felt quite self-congratulatory that she'd raised this agreeable kid. Then she had a 2nd child - who was just like mine! It pointed out to me (and to her <g>) that kids come with different temperaments. It's us, the parents, who have to figure out how to make their lives sweet.

> That said, my almost four year old is too little to go away from her
> family for "several days" (for that matter so is my 6 year old:-)) .

No kidding! My 12 year old isn't ready to be away from us for several days, even now. She might do two days of sleepover with her best friend because she gets along well with the parents. But overnight camp? No way!

> Her behavior sounds to me like she really needs to connect. She needs
> outside help to calm down. She needs to feel that she is safe and
> that life is predictable. To me, that is what a tantrum is. Overload
> and a cry for help. Maybe she just isn't ready for this type of
> extended visit. If she does have to be away from home, maybe she
> needs fewer transitions and more support in decision making. For some
> a sandwich is just a sandwich i.e, my husband, others special order
> every aspect of their meal down to tiny details i.e., me. Temperament
> accounts for a lot.

As Emilie said, temperament accounts for a lot. A 4 year old who is highly sensitive or high need is going to need so much *more* than the usual mainstream parenting. Maybe even more than the usual alternative parenting. I agree that perhaps she's not ready to be away from her mother, so if that's going to happen anyway, the challenge for you is to make her time with you as easy for you all
as possible. Can you work with your cousin on easing the transition for her? Can you spend time at her house, so the little one is more comfortable with you?

It appears that you expect her to react to everything that is happening in the same way your children do and when she doesn't, there's major conflict. I think hitting or punitive time out are not likely to work - she's too unhappy - and it's not kind. She's not getting her needs met, somehow.
Here are lots of ideas: http://sandradodd.com/peacefulparenting and http://sandradodd.com/spanking

Two of the books I mentioned on this list recently might be of help to you, both in understanding this little girl and coming up with alternatives to punitive measures: "The Highly Sensitive Child" by Elaine Aron and "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. Danielle Conger, an unschooling mom, writes eloquently on this: http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/spirited.html I'd also like to recommend Scott Noelle's Daily Groove about parenting - a little reminder in your inbox each day.
http://www.enjoyparenting.com/daily-groove/big-spirit

Of course, most of these assume the child is your own. But the ideas are transferable to a child in your care.

As Sandra Dodd often says (and I'm paraphrasing) "words have power and meaning". I would look at the language you're using in regard to this young child - "spiteful", "demand", "tantrum", "defiance", "aggressive", "destructive". If you see her this way, (and your response to her as "not giving in") there's not much room for loving kindness and creating situations in which she can feel okay.

Children act as "good" as they feel, generally. Sensitive kids have lots more going on inside them. I can reason with my dd now, but often only after she's managed to get herself under control. It's taken awhile and she still has moments of unreasonableness, but we've all learned she needs space and time to calm herself down. Her sweet nature then resumes.

Reasoning doesn't work for young children who are in such distress that they do unreasonable things to get their needs met. Though I'm not sure about the barn example <g>, a place to fall apart safely on her own (a room with lots of pillows and soft things) may work, but not as punishment. You'll need to be nearby, so she knows she's not been abandoned. After she's calmed down, you could talk with her about how she was feeling, about other ways to get her needs met like asking, showing, touching gently. (BTW, some sensitive children prefer being held facing away from you or being sat beside instead of looking directly at them as it's too aggressive or embarrassing for them). You could talk with her about ways you want to try to understand her better ie. would she like you to ask her again what she wants when you get to Sonic? would she like more/less/no warning when leaving the pool?

That's another issue if she has trouble with transitions or even auditory processing. She may not be registering the "minute warnings" (usually arbitrary time limits created for the convenience of parents, not the enjoyment of children) and is completely flustered when she "now" has to go. I don't know how many words she has, but my dd had difficulty articulating what she wanted when she was overwhelmed. It came out in her behaviour.

You may be right - staying home may be less overwhelming for this little girl. I would think about creating a nest for you all for those few days. Maybe the less stimulation, the better.

It's always going to difficult when someone else's child falls apart and you are the responsible adult. You have less "invested" in them, if you kwim. However, it may be that you will be the trusted "other" adult in this little girl's life - perhaps you can be a soft place for her to fall. And you'll get a chance to feel good about helping her become who she's meant to be.

Robin B.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carenkh

I want to second the suggestion for The Highly Sensitive Child
(http://tinyurl.com/23lvzb), and throw out one more - Raising Your
Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka (http://tinyurl.com/266rrz).
That's definitely what this sounds like to me - I'm also wondering if
the little girl just really, really wants to be at home, and feels a
bit powerless about that. Some talking/processing along those lines
might be helpful - I believe there's always an underlying need or
issue when kids "act out" - that's why it's called "acting out"! :-)

peace,
Caren

Lisa

I wanted to add another perspective to the mix... some kids who are
intense (I have one at my house) don't handle lots of talking in the
midst of a crisis very well. Most of us have had the experience of
being upset about something and then having someone in our face that
goes on and on way beyond what you would like (even well meaning it
gets tiresome) Try to use very simple language and be in tune with
whether they feel threatened by being looked in the eye or whatever.

Imagine being a small child and trying to express your wishes to this
big person who isn't your mother and by that flaw alone can not
possibly do it right! My husband even gets that treatment when the
kids say "Mommy doesn't do it THAT way!" Perhaps if you simply
acknowledge to her that you know she must miss her mommy today and
give her a few choices of activities (giving children who are
frustrated some control over their immediate future can sometimes
help) You might also try to rectify the last visit (since you admit
the swat on the bottom bothered you a great deal) by telling her that
you are sorry that you did that.... don't qualify it just you are
sorry you swatted her (I often hear adults apologizing to children for
swatting etc by saying I am sorry I hit you BUT you were ....). She
may arrive this time prepared for battle if you don't defuse those
feelings.

She may also be very visual and have a hard time choosing between what
she thinks she wants from her memory of her last yummy meal when she
is hungry.... maybe show her pictures on the menu of her choices. My
son will sometimes say he isn't hungry when we go to a restaurant(the
noise, smell, crowd etc overwhelm him)... I will ask if I may order
something for him to have later and if so what does he think he would
like... this solves the problem that can arise if our food comes and
he decides he really is hungry. If he does not want to order
something for later but then gets upset when the food comes we order
then and give him a bit of this and that from our plates until his
food comes. For him at least it seems sometimes he is feeling out of
control and overwhelmed and just seeing that if he needs the world to
do his bidding for the time being is possible he feels better. It's
easy to overlook how powerless children can feel when the world seems
to march on without their input...giving them some say and some
choices really helps.


My son will often get very upset if his sandwich is cut incorrectly,
his bread too dry (we have had many sandwiches that had to find other
homes when he asked for a sandwich then got distracted and found it
dry many minutes later!) or god forbid if his jelly is not placed on
the top! I try to remain calm because I know that these are little
things that make him feel that his world is predictable and safe (I
also had sock bumps like another poster!). There have been times when
other things were going on and I didn't have as much patience or the
ability to make another sandwich (if we are out and it's already done
with no replacement ingredients) I am lucky to have alot of like
minded friends who can find a knife to cut his uncut sandwich or
suggest turning his sandwich over so the dry side can rehumidify on
the plate.

Regarding leaving an activity... this is so hard... just think how
many times you say you are leaving and then begin to chat with friends
again! If you are at the pool and it's an activity that ends at a
certain time and you must leave the pool at a certain time you need to
prepare her for that... show her the clock ... explain where the hands
will be when it's the end and your disappointment that it's someone
else's rule that you can't change. If it's not a limit set by someone
else that you can't change but it's just you that wants to leave
perhaps you can find a way for her to continue in the pool safely
while you get out. A shallow children's area or wearing a life jacket
while you sit on the side in reach.... some way that she can make the
transition without feeling forced.

Juggling the needs of several different people is very hard... I find
that simply stating without going on and on to my kids that I am
working on a solution helps. I often ask one child who is ready to
leave to ask the other kids if they are ready... usually they work it
out between themselves without me getting involved BUT my kids are
much older(17,14,12 and 6). Often one child telling the child that is
ready to leave why they aren't ready is enough. I have one child who
is always ready to leave before the others are... I make sure to take
something that she will enjoy doing to pass the time and take the
place of what she is wanting to do at home. I don't always have the
amount of patience with this that I would like...sometimes I am
downright aggravated but I TRY really hard!

I think you may also be experiencing some feelings of being offended
that you are trying so hard to be accommodating and this child seems
to be ungrateful! Try to remember first and foremost she's 4 an her
mommy can't take care of her that day (those days).
Good luck!
Lisa

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Lisa" <jlblock01@...>
wrote:
>> some way that she can make the
> transition without feeling forced.

Talking about where you are going or what you'll be doing next can
help this, too. Sometimes kids get stuck on the idea of "leaving"
and the finality of it, so having a "next" can make a big
difference. For awhile I would always plan to do something Mo would
enjoy right after leaving a playdate - go for ice cream or to the
dollar store, usually. Both of those also included getting something
to keep her occupied in the car, which smoothed the transition even
more.

> If you are at the pool and it's an activity that ends at a
> certain time and you must leave the pool at a certain time you
need to
> prepare her for that... show her the clock

This is something that varies alot with kids - and even changes over
time. I don't recall at what age I was able to start giving Mo
warnings about leaving, but before that point - I'm thinking 3.5 or
4 - any amount of warning would drive her nuts. She just didn't want
to think about anything but the moment. Around 4.5 she started
wanting some warning, but just one "minute" warning! Over the last
year and a half this has gotten longer - now she seems to like a
warning around 15min, and one "time to get ready to go" sort of
notice.

> I wanted to add another perspective to the mix... some kids who are
> intense (I have one at my house) don't handle lots of talking in
the
> midst of a crisis very well.

Even kids who aren't terribly intense can be this way. Mo had
a "word limit" for a few years that dropped to zero when she was
overloaded in any way. No words or touch or eye-contact. Nowadays
she does best if I say "I'm sorry" for any unhappiness on her part -
not as in "my fault" but as in "I am unhappy that you are unhappy".
She still prefers *less* words in moments of stress.

> She may also be very visual and have a hard time choosing between
what
> she thinks she wants from her memory of her last yummy meal when
she
> is hungry

This is a good point, too. Mo often needs me to list off everything
in the house that's available for her to eat, and sometimes run
through the list a couple times so she can choose, if she can't see
all the options in one place (like some in the fridge and some in
the pantry). Sometimes she seems to choose based on a combination of
color and temperature, but not so much texture or crunchiness, which
are often deciding factors for other kids.

---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)

Janet

I was hoping this info would help me with a similar dilemma - but
this behavior does sound age appropriate for a 4 yo separated from
her parents. My problem is a little girl who is 8 who comes to visit
with her mom. She is a holy terror. She gets into more things than a
2yo and she drives my 10yo, 14 yo and 17yo crazy. She is always
hanging on them (literally), going into their rooms (the 10yo
doesn't have a door on her room - house design! Just a curtain!) and
being a real pest. She crashes into us from behind several times
during each visit and gives horrible bear hugs when you least expect
it. (I have told her again and again to NOT do that please! But to no
avail. She is always getting into everyone's things.

When we have warning that she's coming, it's not too bad, we can lock
things up, but that doesn't always happen. Once 10yo dd was working
for hours making a bead thingy for her brother's birthday - they
dropped by and this girl just grabbed the bead thing and dumped it
all out - off the pegs! She does absolutely not listen to her mom and
rarely listens to me. Her mom is a single mom who comes here to check
her email and use the phone - she has no where to leave dd when she
comes - and I would feel pretty silly saying "you are welcome here,
but your little dd is NOT!" even though that's how I feel. She's just
a child!!

I describe her to friends as "perfectly normal for a child raised by
wild wolves." She has no respect for others at all. I can see where
that comes from. Her mom is constantly on her case "don't do this,
don't do that, no you can't do that...." and on and on. I often butt
in and say, "In our house, this is OK, so you have my permission!"
She's not allowed out to play without asking mom who usually says NO,
even on a gorgeous day and we live on 10 acres in the country!
Perfect for kids. We have swings, a trampoline, outbuildings to play
in .... lots of toys, sandbox.... but mom won't let her go out. My
kids run in and out all day! And out is exactly where I want her
because she can tear around and have fun and not hurt anyone or
anything! She is LOUD and obnoxious.

Short of limiting their time here, which I already do, drastically,
how can I help this poor kid? I had her once for 6 hours while her
mom was being evaluated at the ER and I can tell you I have never
seen a 8 yo act so incredibly poorly. She is definitely very
inconsistently, conventionally parented and I'm at a loss.

My kids really don't like her because of her behavior but she hasn't
picked up on how to act to get others to like you yet! I think she'd
be better off as a conventionally parented kid than she is now
because mom is so incredibly inconsistent. I have never seen anything
quite like it. Maybe I just have to limit her visits and grin and
bear it, but I'd like to do something more helpful than that. I have
read all the books recommended in the 4yo case and pretty much am
very laid back (as some see it) with my kids. I don't know what to
do! I really do like her mom, and they have no phone at all and no
way to communicate with the world so until she gets her business up
and running I feel like I want to help her. But not at this cost. If
I knew how to tactfully handle that child....

Jan

Meredith

--- In [email protected], Janet <janeteg@...> wrote:
>
> I was hoping this info would help me with a similar dilemma - but
> this behavior does sound age appropriate for a 4 yo separated from
> her parents. My problem is a little girl who is 8 who comes to
visit
> with her mom. She is a holy terror.

It sounds like she has issues with impulse control - something that
can certainly be exacerbated by unskillful parenting but isn't a
*result* of that. Some kids develop impulse control more slowly than
others and end up feeling very out-of-control most of the time if
they don't have a lot of emotional support.

The most helpful thing you can do, right off the bat, is alter your
expectations of what's appropriate for her - treat her *behaviors*
the way you would a much younger child's.

> Once 10yo dd was working
> for hours making a bead thingy for her brother's birthday - they
> dropped by and this girl just grabbed the bead thing and dumped it
> all out - off the pegs!

One of the things I've noticed with Ray and my gf's dd Savannah (7) -
both of whom have issues with impulse control - is that if
something catches their eye they "zone in" very quickly and intently
and act without hesitation. There's not really any thought-process
going on. That's something to keep in mind with this girl. She's not
malicious, its just that every thought and impulse is being
expressed the moment its experienced.

If you can get her attention and shift her focus, that's great, but
often with Ray and Svh the trick has been slowing them down enough
to make that possible - it all happens so Fast!

> When we have warning that she's coming, it's not too bad, we can
lock
> things up, but that doesn't always happen.

Locking things up is a very useful strategy! Also prepping your kids
a little beforehand - not just in terms of "what do we need to hide"
but in terms of "oh, remember she does those bear-hugs" so kids can
decide where they want to be and how they want to react Beforehand
so her company isn't quite so overwhelming. Think in terms of both
grabbing her attention and using boundaries to slow her down.

Personally, I'd try to be a bit firmer with mom about unplanned
visits. You need time to prepare your home and family for her
company! Maybe, if they are going to "just stop by" they can call
from a pay-phone on the way, or knock on the door but play in the
yard until y'all are ready, or knock and let you know "we're running
errands, can we play when we're done?"

Ray's mom used to use the sorts of strategies this mom is using -
going to others homes to use the resources there. Its hugely
stressful on the kid, which drops the whole impulse-control thing
from low to none. Advance notice helps on both ends.

> out is exactly where I want her
> because she can tear around and have fun and not hurt anyone or
> anything! She is LOUD and obnoxious.

Have you expressed that to the mom? That its much easier on your
family if dd plays outside? It also gives dd a whole lot more
autonomy, which will help her feel better about herself. Why doesn't
mom want her outside?

> how can I help this poor kid? I had her once for 6 hours while her
> mom was being evaluated at the ER and I can tell you I have never
> seen a 8 yo act so incredibly poorly. She is definitely very
> inconsistently, conventionally parented and I'm at a loss.
>

Think of her as a *very* young child - if mom dropped by with a
toddler and got on the computer, or left, what would you do? You'd
have to watch the little one constantly and help her explore the
space and people respectfully, right? It's going to take *that* much
attention and energy on your part to help this girl. Is your family
okay with that?

> she hasn't
> picked up on how to act to get others to like you yet!

Its important to recognize that low impulse control isn't
low "intelligence" or even a lack of social skills. Part of the
problem may well be that when the girl tries to do things that
are "socially acceptable" her lack of impulse control results in her
doing those things too hard and fast. Like this:

> She crashes into us from behind several times
> during each visit and gives horrible bear hugs when you least
expect
> it.

This could be either Svh or Ray (at that age). A hug is a nice
thing, a friendly thing... the problem is they can't control the
intensity. Ray used to knock people down. Svh does things like poke
people in the eyes. Totally not meaning any harm, but she's used to
adult who stroke her hair and face affectionately. She just can't
*do* the gentle, slow movements. She feels friendly and WHAMMO
someone gets a face full of fingers.

> My kids really don't like her because of her behavior

This is pretty important bc you are *their* advocate. For this alone
I would be really really firm with the other mom - advance notice or
the kid stays outside. Maybe all y'all can brainstorm some other
solutions together - ask your kids for other ideas.

In the long run, my experience with Ray's mom has been that friends
who have set really firm boundaries with her have been able to have
a relationship either with her or Ray longer - years instead of
months. Definately brainstorm with your kids and ask for mom's input
and her dd's, but if mom is as inconsistent as you are implying, it
may well be necessary to really put your foot down about your
family's boundaries.

---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)

Lisa O

Thanks, Robin. I read your post after my previous post tonight. You
touched on a lot of good points. The statement about my language
when I describe her really hit me. I do struggle with my feelings
toward her, as my language suggests. I think it comes from a feeling
that I'm under attack. As an abused child, I still respond as a
victim, even in such circumstances as children acting out, as
childrn do. I've been trying to sort out what these strong emotions
are, and where they are coming from, and I know for certain a 4 yo
child cannot be responsible for all I have been feeling. This is a
subject my cousin (her Mom) and I discussed last night, regarding
our relationships with our kids, and our 'snap' reactions to some
behaviors (mirroring our parents). We are BOTH struggling to respond
in a loving way to her child. And, yes, we are both aware that our
seething-under-the-smile is not working very well, as she senses it
and responds accordingly...but that's where we both are at this
point. There is no quick-fix, I just have to quietly work out MY
issues on this subject, and let the relationship with my 4yo cousin
heal as I do.
Meanwhile, I will take tomorrow in-stride, remembering how powerful
my language and the energy I project truly are. I may be able to
fool some people with a smile, but not the little ones. And they
deserve better.
Thanks, you've been truly helpful.
Lisa O


As --- In [email protected], robin.bentley@... wrote:
>
> My reply is long and has lots to read and think about. Take it in
small doses, if necessary!
>
> My dd was a lot like Emilie's at 4 (minus the sensitivity to
seams, but with a sensitivity to loud noises). I only have one
child - I wondered why my little one was so different from others'
kids, especially since we attachment parented and did all the same
things our contemporaries did - and I had no other to compare her
to. One of my friends had the most easy-going baby and child - she
felt quite self-congratulatory that she'd raised this agreeable
kid. Then she had a 2nd child - who was just like mine! It pointed
out to me (and to her <g>) that kids come with different
temperaments. It's us, the parents, who have to figure out how to
make their lives sweet.
>
> > That said, my almost four year old is too little to go away from
her
> > family for "several days" (for that matter so is my 6 year old:-
)) .
>
> No kidding! My 12 year old isn't ready to be away from us for
several days, even now. She might do two days of sleepover with her
best friend because she gets along well with the parents. But
overnight camp? No way!
>
> > Her behavior sounds to me like she really needs to connect. She
needs
> > outside help to calm down. She needs to feel that she is safe
and
> > that life is predictable. To me, that is what a tantrum is.
Overload
> > and a cry for help. Maybe she just isn't ready for this type of
> > extended visit. If she does have to be away from home, maybe she
> > needs fewer transitions and more support in decision making. For
some
> > a sandwich is just a sandwich i.e, my husband, others special
order
> > every aspect of their meal down to tiny details i.e., me.
Temperament
> > accounts for a lot.
>
> As Emilie said, temperament accounts for a lot. A 4 year old who
is highly sensitive or high need is going to need so much *more*
than the usual mainstream parenting. Maybe even more than the usual
alternative parenting. I agree that perhaps she's not ready to be
away from her mother, so if that's going to happen anyway, the
challenge for you is to make her time with you as easy for you all
> as possible. Can you work with your cousin on easing the
transition for her? Can you spend time at her house, so the little
one is more comfortable with you?
>
> It appears that you expect her to react to everything that is
happening in the same way your children do and when she doesn't,
there's major conflict. I think hitting or punitive time out are
not likely to work - she's too unhappy - and it's not kind. She's
not getting her needs met, somehow.
> Here are lots of ideas: http://sandradodd.com/peacefulparenting
and http://sandradodd.com/spanking
>
> Two of the books I mentioned on this list recently might be of
help to you, both in understanding this little girl and coming up
with alternatives to punitive measures: "The Highly Sensitive Child"
by Elaine Aron and "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene. Danielle
Conger, an unschooling mom, writes eloquently on this:
http://danielleconger.organiclearning.org/spirited.html I'd also
like to recommend Scott Noelle's Daily Groove about parenting - a
little reminder in your inbox each day.
> http://www.enjoyparenting.com/daily-groove/big-spirit
>
> Of course, most of these assume the child is your own. But the
ideas are transferable to a child in your care.
>
> As Sandra Dodd often says (and I'm paraphrasing) "words have power
and meaning". I would look at the language you're using in regard to
this young child -
"spiteful", "demand", "tantrum", "defiance", "aggressive", "destruct
ive". If you see her this way, (and your response to her as "not
giving in") there's not much room for loving kindness and creating
situations in which she can feel okay.
>
> Children act as "good" as they feel, generally. Sensitive kids
have lots more going on inside them. I can reason with my dd now,
but often only after she's managed to get herself under control.
It's taken awhile and she still has moments of unreasonableness, but
we've all learned she needs space and time to calm herself down.
Her sweet nature then resumes.
>
> Reasoning doesn't work for young children who are in such distress
that they do unreasonable things to get their needs met. Though I'm
not sure about the barn example <g>, a place to fall apart safely
on her own (a room with lots of pillows and soft things) may work,
but not as punishment. You'll need to be nearby, so she knows she's
not been abandoned. After she's calmed down, you could talk with
her about how she was feeling, about other ways to get her needs met
like asking, showing, touching gently. (BTW, some sensitive
children prefer being held facing away from you or being sat beside
instead of looking directly at them as it's too aggressive or
embarrassing for them). You could talk with her about ways you want
to try to understand her better ie. would she like you to ask her
again what she wants when you get to Sonic? would she like
more/less/no warning when leaving the pool?
>
> That's another issue if she has trouble with transitions or even
auditory processing. She may not be registering the "minute
warnings" (usually arbitrary time limits created for the convenience
of parents, not the enjoyment of children) and is completely
flustered when she "now" has to go. I don't know how many words she
has, but my dd had difficulty articulating what she wanted when she
was overwhelmed. It came out in her behaviour.
>
> You may be right - staying home may be less overwhelming for this
little girl. I would think about creating a nest for you all for
those few days. Maybe the less stimulation, the better.
>
> It's always going to difficult when someone else's child falls
apart and you are the responsible adult. You have less "invested"
in them, if you kwim. However, it may be that you will be the
trusted "other" adult in this little girl's life - perhaps you can
be a soft place for her to fall. And you'll get a chance to feel
good about helping her become who she's meant to be.
>
> Robin B.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Janet

Thanks for these ideas.... We do treat her as a child much younger
than she is, for sure. And "poor impulse control"..... yes, that's
about it in a nutshell. And her mom is the same way. I had a long
vent typed up about her but realized "this is NOT unschooling
related!" so I chucked it. Thanks for the suggestions. We will
probably make a sign "SCHOOL IN SESSION - DO NOT DISTURB" and put it
on the door!

Janet in MN

>--- In
><mailto:unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>[email protected],
>Janet <janeteg@...> wrote:
> >
> > I was hoping this info would help me with a similar dilemma - but
> > this behavior does sound age appropriate for a 4 yo separated from
> > her parents. My problem is a little girl who is 8 who comes to
>visit
> > with her mom. She is a holy terror.
>
>It sounds like she has issues with impulse control - something that
>can certainly be exacerbated by unskillful parenting but isn't a
>*result* of that. Some kids develop impulse control more slowly than
>others and end up feeling very out-of-control most of the time if
>they don't have a lot of emotional support.

BIG SNIP

>Definately brainstorm with your kids and ask for mom's input
>and her dd's, but if mom is as inconsistent as you are implying, it
>may well be necessary to really put your foot down about your
>family's boundaries.
>
>---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)