Snarky comments
Ren Allen
I'm bringing something from another list here for discussion. It's
interesting to me, how people will bash this list and exclude the
truth about our discussions here. The following is what was posted
from a member right here at UB:
~~"I suggest you stay clear of unschoolingbasics. The owner there
assumes that she is the only one who is right and if she doesn't like
what you have to say will jump all over you and then put you on
moderated posts, or delete what you have to say because it
doesn't "fit" into her way of thinking. She does nothing but push
freedom and free speech, etc. yet she finds it okay to moderate people
or delete what they have to say. That makes no sense. Today's
highlights were mainly about how it is fine for your kid to view pono
movies, including hardcore, if they choose to. Most of the main
contributors of posts love to jump on anyone that shows any signs of
actually being a parent to their children, and looking out for them."~~
I think it's too bad that the person chose to warn people away from a
list that others might find helpful. To each their own.
I'm not sure who they think the "owner" is since there are two of us
and two moderators. The posts that were deleted were religious in
nature and/or extremely inflammatory and not about unschooling.
Yep, we're censorship happy.;)
I care deeply about "looking out" for my children and I think it's
apparent by all the posts here that we are all very connected parents
that place our relationships with our children as a high priority in life.
So.....I brought this here as a point of discussion. With all the
intense discussions about assisting our children without coercion and
control, how does it boil down to someone hearing "Porno is fine" and
missing the entire point????
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
interesting to me, how people will bash this list and exclude the
truth about our discussions here. The following is what was posted
from a member right here at UB:
~~"I suggest you stay clear of unschoolingbasics. The owner there
assumes that she is the only one who is right and if she doesn't like
what you have to say will jump all over you and then put you on
moderated posts, or delete what you have to say because it
doesn't "fit" into her way of thinking. She does nothing but push
freedom and free speech, etc. yet she finds it okay to moderate people
or delete what they have to say. That makes no sense. Today's
highlights were mainly about how it is fine for your kid to view pono
movies, including hardcore, if they choose to. Most of the main
contributors of posts love to jump on anyone that shows any signs of
actually being a parent to their children, and looking out for them."~~
I think it's too bad that the person chose to warn people away from a
list that others might find helpful. To each their own.
I'm not sure who they think the "owner" is since there are two of us
and two moderators. The posts that were deleted were religious in
nature and/or extremely inflammatory and not about unschooling.
Yep, we're censorship happy.;)
I care deeply about "looking out" for my children and I think it's
apparent by all the posts here that we are all very connected parents
that place our relationships with our children as a high priority in life.
So.....I brought this here as a point of discussion. With all the
intense discussions about assisting our children without coercion and
control, how does it boil down to someone hearing "Porno is fine" and
missing the entire point????
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
eviecurley
Ren,
Thank you so much for bringing this here as this discussion got me all
fired up last night. The poster certainly misrepresented the topic
here and obviously has issues with RU. When I went and found the
posts she described frankly, I was shocked that she was categorizing
it the way she was. In no way did any of the posts resemble the
things she was saying on the other board. Now someone has so kindly
sent me a link to a book on sexual addiction because, since I don't
have a problem with the topic here, evidently I need to know about
sexual addiction. I don't get it.
I think some people just have a predisposition to finding something
bad or evil around every corner. She just doesn't understand RU and
one can only surmise from reading the post that she has never read
anything about it not does she care to because her mind is already
made up.
I really resent the fact that she said I do not parent my children.
NO I don't control them, yes I do talk to them, listen to their
feelings, and take into account that they are a part of our family and
have needs and wants that are just as important as mine. While I'm
new to RU, one thing I know is that RU parents are more involved in
their children's lives than a lot of parents I know. My kids can come
and ask me about porn if they see it somewhere and I have confidence
that we can talk about it like rational people. They have seen things
on the internet that made them uncomfortable and they came to me and
told me. After we talked about it, they decided for themselves that
it made them uncomfortable and they didn't want to see it anymore. I
didn't have to throw a ban down. I feel good that I have such a close
relationship with my children and I feel sorry for anyone else who
wouldn't want such a thing and sees children as mindless
troublemakers, just waiting for an opportunity to disappoint their
parents.
Ren, you asked how is it possible for someone to miss the point. I
don't know what the answer to that is. I wish I knew. The whole
thing made me feel sad and disappointed that someone would
misrepresent my way of life like that.
As I said on the other board, I can see where someone like her could
have been shocked by some of the things that were discussed. What I
didn't say, and what I don't understand is the vitriol with which the
message was delivered.
Sorry this post is so long, there is so much more to say but the wrap
it up music is playing for me. I haven't posted here much but this
topic brought me out of the woodwork.
I enjoy reading about all of you and learn from everyone's
perspective, even if I disagree with it on occasion. Isn't that why
we're here? To learn from each other?
Thanks again for bringing this over.
Evie
www.whimsipage.blogspot.com
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
Thank you so much for bringing this here as this discussion got me all
fired up last night. The poster certainly misrepresented the topic
here and obviously has issues with RU. When I went and found the
posts she described frankly, I was shocked that she was categorizing
it the way she was. In no way did any of the posts resemble the
things she was saying on the other board. Now someone has so kindly
sent me a link to a book on sexual addiction because, since I don't
have a problem with the topic here, evidently I need to know about
sexual addiction. I don't get it.
I think some people just have a predisposition to finding something
bad or evil around every corner. She just doesn't understand RU and
one can only surmise from reading the post that she has never read
anything about it not does she care to because her mind is already
made up.
I really resent the fact that she said I do not parent my children.
NO I don't control them, yes I do talk to them, listen to their
feelings, and take into account that they are a part of our family and
have needs and wants that are just as important as mine. While I'm
new to RU, one thing I know is that RU parents are more involved in
their children's lives than a lot of parents I know. My kids can come
and ask me about porn if they see it somewhere and I have confidence
that we can talk about it like rational people. They have seen things
on the internet that made them uncomfortable and they came to me and
told me. After we talked about it, they decided for themselves that
it made them uncomfortable and they didn't want to see it anymore. I
didn't have to throw a ban down. I feel good that I have such a close
relationship with my children and I feel sorry for anyone else who
wouldn't want such a thing and sees children as mindless
troublemakers, just waiting for an opportunity to disappoint their
parents.
Ren, you asked how is it possible for someone to miss the point. I
don't know what the answer to that is. I wish I knew. The whole
thing made me feel sad and disappointed that someone would
misrepresent my way of life like that.
As I said on the other board, I can see where someone like her could
have been shocked by some of the things that were discussed. What I
didn't say, and what I don't understand is the vitriol with which the
message was delivered.
Sorry this post is so long, there is so much more to say but the wrap
it up music is playing for me. I haven't posted here much but this
topic brought me out of the woodwork.
I enjoy reading about all of you and learn from everyone's
perspective, even if I disagree with it on occasion. Isn't that why
we're here? To learn from each other?
Thanks again for bringing this over.
Evie
www.whimsipage.blogspot.com
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>life.
> I'm bringing something from another list here for discussion. It's
> interesting to me, how people will bash this list and exclude the
> truth about our discussions here. The following is what was posted
> from a member right here at UB:
>
> ~~"I suggest you stay clear of unschoolingbasics. The owner there
> assumes that she is the only one who is right and if she doesn't like
> what you have to say will jump all over you and then put you on
> moderated posts, or delete what you have to say because it
> doesn't "fit" into her way of thinking. She does nothing but push
> freedom and free speech, etc. yet she finds it okay to moderate people
> or delete what they have to say. That makes no sense. Today's
> highlights were mainly about how it is fine for your kid to view pono
> movies, including hardcore, if they choose to. Most of the main
> contributors of posts love to jump on anyone that shows any signs of
> actually being a parent to their children, and looking out for them."~~
>
>
> I think it's too bad that the person chose to warn people away from a
> list that others might find helpful. To each their own.
>
> I'm not sure who they think the "owner" is since there are two of us
> and two moderators. The posts that were deleted were religious in
> nature and/or extremely inflammatory and not about unschooling.
> Yep, we're censorship happy.;)
>
> I care deeply about "looking out" for my children and I think it's
> apparent by all the posts here that we are all very connected parents
> that place our relationships with our children as a high priority in
>
> So.....I brought this here as a point of discussion. With all the
> intense discussions about assisting our children without coercion and
> control, how does it boil down to someone hearing "Porno is fine" and
> missing the entire point????
>
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
Schafer Vanessa
Ren,
I am still new to this (we've been at this a year.) I
know a couple of times I got upset with some of the
comments made to me here, but after thinking about it,
I took things the wrong way. I know what you were
trying to do, you were trying to get me to think
outside the box, and relax, and let the kids learn
things that they were interested in, and also to learn
right along with them.
I don't know who it was that made the comments you
found on another list, but I have found this group to
be extremely helpful to me and my family. I have come
to learn alot about unschooling from this group, and
have found you all to be very helpful. I feel sorry
for anyone who doesn't want to join the group because
of what one person said. I think if this person
stopped to think about things, like I had the chance
to do, they would find that you weren't telling them
not to be a parent, but to respect your children, and
be there with them, by their side, to help them make
decisions, or to find solutions to problems. As I see
it, unschooling is about living a life of freedom, and
enjoying all there is to offer, not by yourself, but
together with your child/children. I am still
learning, and you all have been a tremendous help. I
know everyone has a difference of opinions, but isn't
that what makes us individuals? You all have helped
me think in ways that I never would have, if I hadn't
pulled my kids out of public schools. What was the
normal thing there, is no longer normal in my house.
It is really fun to just relax, and throw all of the
time lines out the window, with no more book reports,
etc, and no certain time we have to be anywhere.
I want to apologize to you, and to everyone else for
any of the times I took advice wrong, and didn't take
the time to really listen. Thanks again for all of
the help. I will continue to stay a part of this
group, so that I can learn more, and bounce
ideas/question off from you all.
Thanks again!!!
--- Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat?
Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
I am still new to this (we've been at this a year.) I
know a couple of times I got upset with some of the
comments made to me here, but after thinking about it,
I took things the wrong way. I know what you were
trying to do, you were trying to get me to think
outside the box, and relax, and let the kids learn
things that they were interested in, and also to learn
right along with them.
I don't know who it was that made the comments you
found on another list, but I have found this group to
be extremely helpful to me and my family. I have come
to learn alot about unschooling from this group, and
have found you all to be very helpful. I feel sorry
for anyone who doesn't want to join the group because
of what one person said. I think if this person
stopped to think about things, like I had the chance
to do, they would find that you weren't telling them
not to be a parent, but to respect your children, and
be there with them, by their side, to help them make
decisions, or to find solutions to problems. As I see
it, unschooling is about living a life of freedom, and
enjoying all there is to offer, not by yourself, but
together with your child/children. I am still
learning, and you all have been a tremendous help. I
know everyone has a difference of opinions, but isn't
that what makes us individuals? You all have helped
me think in ways that I never would have, if I hadn't
pulled my kids out of public schools. What was the
normal thing there, is no longer normal in my house.
It is really fun to just relax, and throw all of the
time lines out the window, with no more book reports,
etc, and no certain time we have to be anywhere.
I want to apologize to you, and to everyone else for
any of the times I took advice wrong, and didn't take
the time to really listen. Thanks again for all of
the help. I will continue to stay a part of this
group, so that I can learn more, and bounce
ideas/question off from you all.
Thanks again!!!
--- Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
> I'm bringing something from another list here forVanessa
> discussion. It's
> interesting to me, how people will bash this list
> and exclude the
> truth about our discussions here. The following is
> what was posted
> from a member right here at UB:
>
> ~~"I suggest you stay clear of unschoolingbasics.
> The owner there
> assumes that she is the only one who is right and
> if she doesn't like
> what you have to say will jump all over you and then
> put you on
> moderated posts, or delete what you have to say
> because it
> doesn't "fit" into her way of thinking. She does
> nothing but push
> freedom and free speech, etc. yet she finds it okay
> to moderate people
> or delete what they have to say. That makes no
> sense. Today's
> highlights were mainly about how it is fine for your
> kid to view pono
> movies, including hardcore, if they choose to. Most
> of the main
> contributors of posts love to jump on anyone that
> shows any signs of
> actually being a parent to their children, and
> looking out for them."~~
>
>
> I think it's too bad that the person chose to warn
> people away from a
> list that others might find helpful. To each their
> own.
>
> I'm not sure who they think the "owner" is since
> there are two of us
> and two moderators. The posts that were deleted
> were religious in
> nature and/or extremely inflammatory and not about
> unschooling.
> Yep, we're censorship happy.;)
>
> I care deeply about "looking out" for my children
> and I think it's
> apparent by all the posts here that we are all very
> connected parents
> that place our relationships with our children as a
> high priority in life.
>
> So.....I brought this here as a point of discussion.
> With all the
> intense discussions about assisting our children
> without coercion and
> control, how does it boil down to someone hearing
> "Porno is fine" and
> missing the entire point????
>
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat?
Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
Deb Lewis
> I think it's too bad that the person chose to warn people away from aI wouldn't worry about that, Ren. People who want information more
> list that others might find helpful.
than they want to be paranoid will check out the resources that appeal
to them. There are a lot of places to get information, there are good
publications, anyone with internet access can find good stuff.
And sometimes being warned against a list motivates people to join. : )
Some little bit of evidence to support the argument that trying to
limit someone usually doesn't work the way folks hope it will.<g>
> So.....I brought this here as a point of discussion. With all theIt's not normal to trust kids or to believe they have good
> intense discussions about assisting our children without coercion and
> control, how does it boil down to someone hearing "Porno is fine" and
> missing the entire point????
intentions. It's much easier to listen to our fears (which are
typically supported and encouraged by most of the people who love us)
than it is to listen to some radical stranger telling us our kids are
good people who are capable of making good decisions.
The unschooling philosophy is so clear and logical once you understand
it but until then it just seems nutty.
Deb Lewis
Schafer Vanessa
Evie,
I don't see anything wrong with what you are doing. A
child has a natural ability to learn and to question.
I am new to unschooling (1 year into it), and the one
thing that I've learned and am still learning is to
trust your kids. Like your kids, mine know that they
can come to me and ask me any questions they have, and
I will be more than glad to answer it. If I don't
know the answer, then we look it up together. Life is
all about the choices that we make. If my children
ran across nuditity, I would definately talk to them
about it, along with my husband.
Keep doing what your doing. If it works for you
great. I think this is more about trusting kids, than
anything else. I think kids need to be given the
freedom to make their own choices, and sometimes with
a little help here and there. What one person sees in
the things that you are, or aren't doing right with
your kids, is there opinion. I've learned alot from
this group, and continue to learn new stuff everyday.
I understand exactly what you are saying.
--- eviecurley <ecurley@...> wrote:
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/
I don't see anything wrong with what you are doing. A
child has a natural ability to learn and to question.
I am new to unschooling (1 year into it), and the one
thing that I've learned and am still learning is to
trust your kids. Like your kids, mine know that they
can come to me and ask me any questions they have, and
I will be more than glad to answer it. If I don't
know the answer, then we look it up together. Life is
all about the choices that we make. If my children
ran across nuditity, I would definately talk to them
about it, along with my husband.
Keep doing what your doing. If it works for you
great. I think this is more about trusting kids, than
anything else. I think kids need to be given the
freedom to make their own choices, and sometimes with
a little help here and there. What one person sees in
the things that you are, or aren't doing right with
your kids, is there opinion. I've learned alot from
this group, and continue to learn new stuff everyday.
I understand exactly what you are saying.
--- eviecurley <ecurley@...> wrote:
> Ren,Vanessa
>
> Thank you so much for bringing this here as this
> discussion got me all
> fired up last night. The poster certainly
> misrepresented the topic
> here and obviously has issues with RU. When I went
> and found the
> posts she described frankly, I was shocked that she
> was categorizing
> it the way she was. In no way did any of the posts
> resemble the
> things she was saying on the other board. Now
> someone has so kindly
> sent me a link to a book on sexual addiction
> because, since I don't
> have a problem with the topic here, evidently I need
> to know about
> sexual addiction. I don't get it.
>
> I think some people just have a predisposition to
> finding something
> bad or evil around every corner. She just doesn't
> understand RU and
> one can only surmise from reading the post that she
> has never read
> anything about it not does she care to because her
> mind is already
> made up.
>
> I really resent the fact that she said I do not
> parent my children.
> NO I don't control them, yes I do talk to them,
> listen to their
> feelings, and take into account that they are a part
> of our family and
> have needs and wants that are just as important as
> mine. While I'm
> new to RU, one thing I know is that RU parents are
> more involved in
> their children's lives than a lot of parents I know.
> My kids can come
> and ask me about porn if they see it somewhere and I
> have confidence
> that we can talk about it like rational people. They
> have seen things
> on the internet that made them uncomfortable and
> they came to me and
> told me. After we talked about it, they decided for
> themselves that
> it made them uncomfortable and they didn't want to
> see it anymore. I
> didn't have to throw a ban down. I feel good that I
> have such a close
> relationship with my children and I feel sorry for
> anyone else who
> wouldn't want such a thing and sees children as
> mindless
> troublemakers, just waiting for an opportunity to
> disappoint their
> parents.
>
> Ren, you asked how is it possible for someone to
> miss the point. I
> don't know what the answer to that is. I wish I
> knew. The whole
> thing made me feel sad and disappointed that someone
> would
> misrepresent my way of life like that.
>
> As I said on the other board, I can see where
> someone like her could
> have been shocked by some of the things that were
> discussed. What I
> didn't say, and what I don't understand is the
> vitriol with which the
> message was delivered.
>
> Sorry this post is so long, there is so much more to
> say but the wrap
> it up music is playing for me. I haven't posted
> here much but this
> topic brought me out of the woodwork.
>
> I enjoy reading about all of you and learn from
> everyone's
> perspective, even if I disagree with it on occasion.
> Isn't that why
> we're here? To learn from each other?
>
> Thanks again for bringing this over.
>
> Evie
>
> www.whimsipage.blogspot.com
>
> --- In [email protected], "Ren
> Allen"
> <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
> >
> > I'm bringing something from another list here for
> discussion. It's
> > interesting to me, how people will bash this list
> and exclude the
> > truth about our discussions here. The following is
> what was posted
> > from a member right here at UB:
> >
> > ~~"I suggest you stay clear of unschoolingbasics.
> The owner there
> > assumes that she is the only one who is right and
> if she doesn't like
> > what you have to say will jump all over you and
> then put you on
> > moderated posts, or delete what you have to say
> because it
> > doesn't "fit" into her way of thinking. She does
> nothing but push
> > freedom and free speech, etc. yet she finds it
> okay to moderate people
> > or delete what they have to say. That makes no
> sense. Today's
> > highlights were mainly about how it is fine for
> your kid to view pono
> > movies, including hardcore, if they choose to.
> Most of the main
> > contributors of posts love to jump on anyone that
> shows any signs of
> > actually being a parent to their children, and
> looking out for them."~~
> >
> >
> > I think it's too bad that the person chose to warn
> people away from a
> > list that others might find helpful. To each their
> own.
> >
> > I'm not sure who they think the "owner" is since
> there are two of us
> > and two moderators. The posts that were deleted
> were religious in
> > nature and/or extremely inflammatory and not about
> unschooling.
> > Yep, we're censorship happy.;)
> >
> > I care deeply about "looking out" for my children
> and I think it's
> > apparent by all the posts here that we are all
> very connected parents
> > that place our relationships with our children as
> a high priority in
> life.
> >
> > So.....I brought this here as a point of
> discussion. With all the
> > intense discussions about assisting our children
> without coercion and
> > control, how does it boil down to someone hearing
> "Porno is fine" and
> > missing the entire point????
> >
> >
> > Ren
> > learninginfreedom.com
> >
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/
Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky
That person did not want to hear what we had to say.
The person wanted us to agree with her/him.
Most parents can't think other than either/or .
*Parents know best
*We have to protect them or they will make bad decisions.
and the list goes on.....
Alex
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The person wanted us to agree with her/him.
Most parents can't think other than either/or .
*Parents know best
*We have to protect them or they will make bad decisions.
and the list goes on.....
Alex
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
j50yab
I hope it is okay for me to chip in here? This is the first time I've
posted on this board and I'm not an unschooler. I am however learning
a great deal about parenting from this board. So, you have asked how
the point could be missed and I thought you might appreciate my input
"from the outside".
I don't know anything about the posts on the other boards/board
politics etc (and neither do i want to) but my first observation is
that if someone were following the board "with their ears closed" they
would certainly come away with an impression that "hardcore porn is
okay", "roll out the barrels of beer" and "playing in busy roads is
fine too". They might not however notice anything else (for myself,
I am trying to hear the "everything else" and am choosing to ignore
the porn/beer/busy roads stuff).
If we really want to reflect upon it and consider how we could help
others to understand the whole point, then perhaps this could be along
the lines of, "if we truly believe we've got it right, then what is
the best way we can find to share this with others and to help them
'get it' too?". First off we would need to be acutely aware of the
perspective/needs/etc of the listener. In the case of the thread I
think we are talking about the comments were certainly helpful and
time and effort was put into explaining/clarifying things for the
original poster (although I am sure some of it would have been very
frustrating for her as it would to me!!). She is being given the room
to be clear about the issues without getting "hammered" for it.
That said, and I'm trying to be helpful here, as someone looking from
the outside, I wonder whether it could possibly have been wiser for
experienced posters to duck out of some of the more "unusual" examples
and steer the thread to less controversial territory in view of the
fact that the original questioner is struggling, is asking for help,
and is not already treading the path of radical unschooling - plus,
you don't know who else is lurking on the thread (like me!) and could
be pushed away from the cause rather than attracted towards it.
I don't mean that these things shouldn't be discussed, but that if you
are asking how come people don't get the main point, then this could
be one of the reasons.
Sarah
posted on this board and I'm not an unschooler. I am however learning
a great deal about parenting from this board. So, you have asked how
the point could be missed and I thought you might appreciate my input
"from the outside".
I don't know anything about the posts on the other boards/board
politics etc (and neither do i want to) but my first observation is
that if someone were following the board "with their ears closed" they
would certainly come away with an impression that "hardcore porn is
okay", "roll out the barrels of beer" and "playing in busy roads is
fine too". They might not however notice anything else (for myself,
I am trying to hear the "everything else" and am choosing to ignore
the porn/beer/busy roads stuff).
If we really want to reflect upon it and consider how we could help
others to understand the whole point, then perhaps this could be along
the lines of, "if we truly believe we've got it right, then what is
the best way we can find to share this with others and to help them
'get it' too?". First off we would need to be acutely aware of the
perspective/needs/etc of the listener. In the case of the thread I
think we are talking about the comments were certainly helpful and
time and effort was put into explaining/clarifying things for the
original poster (although I am sure some of it would have been very
frustrating for her as it would to me!!). She is being given the room
to be clear about the issues without getting "hammered" for it.
That said, and I'm trying to be helpful here, as someone looking from
the outside, I wonder whether it could possibly have been wiser for
experienced posters to duck out of some of the more "unusual" examples
and steer the thread to less controversial territory in view of the
fact that the original questioner is struggling, is asking for help,
and is not already treading the path of radical unschooling - plus,
you don't know who else is lurking on the thread (like me!) and could
be pushed away from the cause rather than attracted towards it.
I don't mean that these things shouldn't be discussed, but that if you
are asking how come people don't get the main point, then this could
be one of the reasons.
Sarah
Lisa Meuser
Thanks so much Ren for bringing this here.
I too was very saddened to read how someone's fear could lead to them
misrepresenting UB.
I am just a lurker here, but have learned so much and am so grateful
for this list. It has really been a hidden support system for me. :)
To answer your question, i think that people still really are afraid
of their sexuality, and of sex in general. Passing this fear onto
your children is really a horrible thing. :(
:) lisa
I too was very saddened to read how someone's fear could lead to them
misrepresenting UB.
I am just a lurker here, but have learned so much and am so grateful
for this list. It has really been a hidden support system for me. :)
To answer your question, i think that people still really are afraid
of their sexuality, and of sex in general. Passing this fear onto
your children is really a horrible thing. :(
:) lisa
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: j50yab <ummhamzah99@...>
That said, and I'm trying to be helpful here, as someone looking from
the outside, I wonder whether it could possibly have been wiser for
experienced posters to duck out of some of the more "unusual" examples
and steer the thread to less controversial territory in view of the
fact that the original questioner is struggling, is asking for help,
and is not already treading the path of radical unschooling - plus,
you don't know who else is lurking on the thread (like me!) and could
be pushed away from the cause rather than attracted towards it.
-=-=-
Well, we try NOT to deal with hypotheticals. Typically the extreme
hypotheticals are: drug use, sex/porn, and playing in the middle of the
street. <g>
REAL issues that folks are dealing with *today* are more welcome---and
folks can try REAL examples/suggestions and get right back to us. It
just works better that way. *very* rarely are those examples as extreme
as the ttypcal hypothetical.
But often someone with an 18 month old wants to discuss porn/sex or
drug issues with her hypothetical teenager. Not that's it's bad to be
thinking that far ahead! It's just that they are made up situations.
And the suggestions/advice can constantly be refuted by the original
poster with, "yeah, but" or "what if"---'til we're blue in the face
with ideas/suggestions/advice.
Karen's now asking advice on how to deal with a
tradtionally-parented-teen-gone-wild. That's *very* hard for us to give
advice or suggestions for because we advocate starting as early as
possible to develop the trust that is obviously lacking in her case.
It's not that she *can't* regain/build trust---it's just that that is
EXACTLY what we are trying to avoid with our foundation-laying right
now!
I would even venture to say that it's a lot like deschooling: Karen's
daughter will need one month for every year she has been "traditionally
parented" in order to "de-parent" completely. It's sooo much easier to
start out that way OR start while the child is still youngish.
I truly have NO advice for Karen. I'm terribly sorry! I see this
behavior over and over in varying degrees with Cameron's friends. But I
also believe that as they are "parented" less and less (because they
are out on their own and "parenting" themselves), that they will
(fortunately) eventually straighten themselves out (if they don't
seriously hurt/imprison/kill themselves first) AND that they will
(unfortanately) become the same kind of parent that they had---because
they will believe that they turned out "just fine."---Vicious cycle,
huh?
No one here can make anyone else unschool---or even be a better parent.
We can share our stories and experiences and suggest things that have
worked for us (OR against us). We can inspire and be inspired by each
other. What others take is EXACTLY what they are looking for. Some will
be happy with what they take away. Others will not.
It helps if the original poster is upfront and honest and willing to
accept what others generously offer (or not---take whatever works for
you!). But we cannot make those who are giving of themselves (many for
hours a day---away from their own children!) to do it in a way that
appeals to each and every lurker/poster. Every experienced voice here
that shares his/her stories s doing so because s/he feels that the
world will be a better place if more parents were mindful of their
roles and if more children were trusted and respected. Period.
All of us honestly have plenty of other worthwhile things to do. We
don't *have* to be here. <g> It's a choice we make because we hope to
make a difference in families' lives.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: j50yab <ummhamzah99@...>
That said, and I'm trying to be helpful here, as someone looking from
the outside, I wonder whether it could possibly have been wiser for
experienced posters to duck out of some of the more "unusual" examples
and steer the thread to less controversial territory in view of the
fact that the original questioner is struggling, is asking for help,
and is not already treading the path of radical unschooling - plus,
you don't know who else is lurking on the thread (like me!) and could
be pushed away from the cause rather than attracted towards it.
-=-=-
Well, we try NOT to deal with hypotheticals. Typically the extreme
hypotheticals are: drug use, sex/porn, and playing in the middle of the
street. <g>
REAL issues that folks are dealing with *today* are more welcome---and
folks can try REAL examples/suggestions and get right back to us. It
just works better that way. *very* rarely are those examples as extreme
as the ttypcal hypothetical.
But often someone with an 18 month old wants to discuss porn/sex or
drug issues with her hypothetical teenager. Not that's it's bad to be
thinking that far ahead! It's just that they are made up situations.
And the suggestions/advice can constantly be refuted by the original
poster with, "yeah, but" or "what if"---'til we're blue in the face
with ideas/suggestions/advice.
Karen's now asking advice on how to deal with a
tradtionally-parented-teen-gone-wild. That's *very* hard for us to give
advice or suggestions for because we advocate starting as early as
possible to develop the trust that is obviously lacking in her case.
It's not that she *can't* regain/build trust---it's just that that is
EXACTLY what we are trying to avoid with our foundation-laying right
now!
I would even venture to say that it's a lot like deschooling: Karen's
daughter will need one month for every year she has been "traditionally
parented" in order to "de-parent" completely. It's sooo much easier to
start out that way OR start while the child is still youngish.
I truly have NO advice for Karen. I'm terribly sorry! I see this
behavior over and over in varying degrees with Cameron's friends. But I
also believe that as they are "parented" less and less (because they
are out on their own and "parenting" themselves), that they will
(fortunately) eventually straighten themselves out (if they don't
seriously hurt/imprison/kill themselves first) AND that they will
(unfortanately) become the same kind of parent that they had---because
they will believe that they turned out "just fine."---Vicious cycle,
huh?
No one here can make anyone else unschool---or even be a better parent.
We can share our stories and experiences and suggest things that have
worked for us (OR against us). We can inspire and be inspired by each
other. What others take is EXACTLY what they are looking for. Some will
be happy with what they take away. Others will not.
It helps if the original poster is upfront and honest and willing to
accept what others generously offer (or not---take whatever works for
you!). But we cannot make those who are giving of themselves (many for
hours a day---away from their own children!) to do it in a way that
appeals to each and every lurker/poster. Every experienced voice here
that shares his/her stories s doing so because s/he feels that the
world will be a better place if more parents were mindful of their
roles and if more children were trusted and respected. Period.
All of us honestly have plenty of other worthwhile things to do. We
don't *have* to be here. <g> It's a choice we make because we hope to
make a difference in families' lives.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
Vickisue Gray
~~The owner there assumes that she is the only one who
is right and if she doesn't like what you have to say will jump
all over you and then put you on moderated posts, or delete
what you have to say because it doesn't "fit" into her way of thinking. ~~
Wow, that doesn't sound like this group.... If you decided to delete
someones comment, I'd guess that it was really off base.
Now, as for controlling moderators, I've had that experience on a Christian
hs'ling group I'm in, simply because I made a positive post on how video
games can be educational! They were spouting on the 'evils' of computer
games, video games, and the poor little (in their minds) evil DS and how as
parents, we need to keep these instruments of evil from our children.
LOL...
Nope. I don't see you all being controlling. I see you all as probably being the
most clear thinking group of people I've come across on-line. Personally, I
appreciate you all.
Vicki
____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat?
Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
is right and if she doesn't like what you have to say will jump
all over you and then put you on moderated posts, or delete
what you have to say because it doesn't "fit" into her way of thinking. ~~
Wow, that doesn't sound like this group.... If you decided to delete
someones comment, I'd guess that it was really off base.
Now, as for controlling moderators, I've had that experience on a Christian
hs'ling group I'm in, simply because I made a positive post on how video
games can be educational! They were spouting on the 'evils' of computer
games, video games, and the poor little (in their minds) evil DS and how as
parents, we need to keep these instruments of evil from our children.
LOL...
Nope. I don't see you all being controlling. I see you all as probably being the
most clear thinking group of people I've come across on-line. Personally, I
appreciate you all.
Vicki
____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat?
Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lesa
BRAVO!!!!!!!! BRAVO!!!!!!!!!
-------Original Message-------
From: kbcdlovejo@...
Date: 07/31/07 11:35:08
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Snarky comments//teens-gone-wild/this
list
-----Original Message-----
From: j50yab <ummhamzah99@...>
That said, and I'm trying to be helpful here, as someone looking from
the outside, I wonder whether it could possibly have been wiser for
experienced posters to duck out of some of the more "unusual" examples
and steer the thread to less controversial territory in view of the
fact that the original questioner is struggling, is asking for help,
and is not already treading the path of radical unschooling - plus,
you don't know who else is lurking on the thread (like me!) and could
be pushed away from the cause rather than attracted towards it.
-=-=-
Well, we try NOT to deal with hypotheticals. Typically the extreme
hypotheticals are: drug use, sex/porn, and playing in the middle of the
street. <g>
REAL issues that folks are dealing with *today* are more welcome---and
folks can try REAL examples/suggestions and get right back to us. It
just works better that way. *very* rarely are those examples as extreme
as the ttypcal hypothetical.
But often someone with an 18 month old wants to discuss porn/sex or
drug issues with her hypothetical teenager. Not that's it's bad to be
thinking that far ahead! It's just that they are made up situations.
And the suggestions/advice can constantly be refuted by the original
poster with, "yeah, but" or "what if"---'til we're blue in the face
with ideas/suggestions/advice.
Karen's now asking advice on how to deal with a
tradtionally-parented-teen-gone-wild. That's *very* hard for us to give
advice or suggestions for because we advocate starting as early as
possible to develop the trust that is obviously lacking in her case.
It's not that she *can't* regain/build trust---it's just that that is
EXACTLY what we are trying to avoid with our foundation-laying right
now!
I would even venture to say that it's a lot like deschooling: Karen's
daughter will need one month for every year she has been "traditionally
parented" in order to "de-parent" completely. It's sooo much easier to
start out that way OR start while the child is still youngish.
I truly have NO advice for Karen. I'm terribly sorry! I see this
behavior over and over in varying degrees with Cameron's friends. But I
also believe that as they are "parented" less and less (because they
are out on their own and "parenting" themselves), that they will
(fortunately) eventually straighten themselves out (if they don't
seriously hurt/imprison/kill themselves first) AND that they will
(unfortanately) become the same kind of parent that they had---because
they will believe that they turned out "just fine."---Vicious cycle,
huh?
No one here can make anyone else unschool---or even be a better parent.
We can share our stories and experiences and suggest things that have
worked for us (OR against us). We can inspire and be inspired by each
other. What others take is EXACTLY what they are looking for. Some will
be happy with what they take away. Others will not.
It helps if the original poster is upfront and honest and willing to
accept what others generously offer (or not---take whatever works for
you!). But we cannot make those who are giving of themselves (many for
hours a day---away from their own children!) to do it in a way that
appeals to each and every lurker/poster. Every experienced voice here
that shares his/her stories s doing so because s/he feels that the
world will be a better place if more parents were mindful of their
roles and if more children were trusted and respected. Period.
All of us honestly have plenty of other worthwhile things to do. We
don't *have* to be here. <g> It's a choice we make because we hope to
make a difference in families' lives.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
__________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-------Original Message-------
From: kbcdlovejo@...
Date: 07/31/07 11:35:08
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Snarky comments//teens-gone-wild/this
list
-----Original Message-----
From: j50yab <ummhamzah99@...>
That said, and I'm trying to be helpful here, as someone looking from
the outside, I wonder whether it could possibly have been wiser for
experienced posters to duck out of some of the more "unusual" examples
and steer the thread to less controversial territory in view of the
fact that the original questioner is struggling, is asking for help,
and is not already treading the path of radical unschooling - plus,
you don't know who else is lurking on the thread (like me!) and could
be pushed away from the cause rather than attracted towards it.
-=-=-
Well, we try NOT to deal with hypotheticals. Typically the extreme
hypotheticals are: drug use, sex/porn, and playing in the middle of the
street. <g>
REAL issues that folks are dealing with *today* are more welcome---and
folks can try REAL examples/suggestions and get right back to us. It
just works better that way. *very* rarely are those examples as extreme
as the ttypcal hypothetical.
But often someone with an 18 month old wants to discuss porn/sex or
drug issues with her hypothetical teenager. Not that's it's bad to be
thinking that far ahead! It's just that they are made up situations.
And the suggestions/advice can constantly be refuted by the original
poster with, "yeah, but" or "what if"---'til we're blue in the face
with ideas/suggestions/advice.
Karen's now asking advice on how to deal with a
tradtionally-parented-teen-gone-wild. That's *very* hard for us to give
advice or suggestions for because we advocate starting as early as
possible to develop the trust that is obviously lacking in her case.
It's not that she *can't* regain/build trust---it's just that that is
EXACTLY what we are trying to avoid with our foundation-laying right
now!
I would even venture to say that it's a lot like deschooling: Karen's
daughter will need one month for every year she has been "traditionally
parented" in order to "de-parent" completely. It's sooo much easier to
start out that way OR start while the child is still youngish.
I truly have NO advice for Karen. I'm terribly sorry! I see this
behavior over and over in varying degrees with Cameron's friends. But I
also believe that as they are "parented" less and less (because they
are out on their own and "parenting" themselves), that they will
(fortunately) eventually straighten themselves out (if they don't
seriously hurt/imprison/kill themselves first) AND that they will
(unfortanately) become the same kind of parent that they had---because
they will believe that they turned out "just fine."---Vicious cycle,
huh?
No one here can make anyone else unschool---or even be a better parent.
We can share our stories and experiences and suggest things that have
worked for us (OR against us). We can inspire and be inspired by each
other. What others take is EXACTLY what they are looking for. Some will
be happy with what they take away. Others will not.
It helps if the original poster is upfront and honest and willing to
accept what others generously offer (or not---take whatever works for
you!). But we cannot make those who are giving of themselves (many for
hours a day---away from their own children!) to do it in a way that
appeals to each and every lurker/poster. Every experienced voice here
that shares his/her stories s doing so because s/he feels that the
world will be a better place if more parents were mindful of their
roles and if more children were trusted and respected. Period.
All of us honestly have plenty of other worthwhile things to do. We
don't *have* to be here. <g> It's a choice we make because we hope to
make a difference in families' lives.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
__________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
On Jul 31, 2007, at 8:03 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
would go away thinking I had said, "Hardcore porn? My 3-year-old
loves it! I'd buy it for any kid who wanted it, no questions asked!"
People like to bring extreme examples, to get us to say, "Oh, yes, I
would say No to heroin or porn, therefore it's OK that _you_ want to
say no to your kid drinking pop or watching Nick, Jr." I posted about
porn because I have actual experience with it, and to say, "You know,
even in this apparently obviously extreme case where you'd think we
would all just draw a hard line with our kids, there are nuances."
But for people who can't see, or don't want to see, nuances, that
kind of argument will never sink in. They just go "OMG Porn!" and run
away, I guess.
I know it can be hard to get past a really ingrained idea. I remember
being appalled when I first read unschoolers talk about their kids
falling asleep in front of videos. That image just cried out "bad,
neglectful parenting!" to me. But then I had a kid who gets wild and
wired and who, at least sometimes, doesn't want to go to bed with me
to settle down. And guess what? Putting on a familiar video, and
sitting with him while he watches it, is a great way to help him
settle his body and quiet his mind so he can drop off to sleep. If I
can struggle to let go of an idea about kids falling asleep while
watching videos, how hard must it be for someone to let go of even
more ingrained ideas about what good parents tell their kids about
sex, drugs, and so on?
Sorry for tossing fuel on that particular fire.
Su
> So.....I brought this here as a point of discussion. With all theAfter I posted my thing about porn, I _knew_ there were people who
> intense discussions about assisting our children without coercion and
> control, how does it boil down to someone hearing "Porno is fine" and
> missing the entire point????
would go away thinking I had said, "Hardcore porn? My 3-year-old
loves it! I'd buy it for any kid who wanted it, no questions asked!"
People like to bring extreme examples, to get us to say, "Oh, yes, I
would say No to heroin or porn, therefore it's OK that _you_ want to
say no to your kid drinking pop or watching Nick, Jr." I posted about
porn because I have actual experience with it, and to say, "You know,
even in this apparently obviously extreme case where you'd think we
would all just draw a hard line with our kids, there are nuances."
But for people who can't see, or don't want to see, nuances, that
kind of argument will never sink in. They just go "OMG Porn!" and run
away, I guess.
I know it can be hard to get past a really ingrained idea. I remember
being appalled when I first read unschoolers talk about their kids
falling asleep in front of videos. That image just cried out "bad,
neglectful parenting!" to me. But then I had a kid who gets wild and
wired and who, at least sometimes, doesn't want to go to bed with me
to settle down. And guess what? Putting on a familiar video, and
sitting with him while he watches it, is a great way to help him
settle his body and quiet his mind so he can drop off to sleep. If I
can struggle to let go of an idea about kids falling asleep while
watching videos, how hard must it be for someone to let go of even
more ingrained ideas about what good parents tell their kids about
sex, drugs, and so on?
Sorry for tossing fuel on that particular fire.
Su
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/31/2007 5:06:46 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
~~"I suggest you stay clear of unschoolingbasics. The owner there
assumes that she is the only one who is right and if she doesn't like
what you have to say will jump all over you and then put you on
moderated posts, or delete what you have to say because it
doesn't "fit" into her way of thinking. She does nothing but push
freedom and free speech, etc. yet she finds it okay to moderate people
or delete what they have to say. That makes no sense. Today's
highlights were mainly about how it is fine for your kid to view pono
movies, including hardcore, if they choose to. Most of the main
contributors of posts love to jump on anyone that shows any signs of
actually being a parent to their children, and looking out for them."~~
____________________________________________________________
Ren, I have seen VERY few "snarky" comments. I have seen things said less
sensitively that *I* would put it - but that really is sooooo individualistic
and how one reads an email vs hears a speaking tone always comes into play.
I find this list challenging! And I LOVE that. I need the challenge - to get
me to think, HARD, abut the kids, my parenting, what is good for all of us,
myself too. I am glad for this challenge. I am trying hard to face up to it. I
have also found that I can take what I like and leave the rest. So can
anyone else.
As I said in another note to a different person here, I do feel that there
have been a few reactionary comments and I thought it was due to members here
feeling attacked. I came here right as those religious posts (I think it was
them, it may have been a different person though) and attacks were happening.
Since then, I have seen what appears to be some defensiveness. That person,
now not a member, was outright rude and claimed we didn't parent our
children. It wasn't nice at all, and I just assumed some of that stress and tension
has been carried over a bit due to that. In other words, a poster's questions
might feel like an attack on unschooling or on parenting, when in fact the
frustration and stress from the poster is only that - frustration in their
personal situation. A reader may then read it as if there were attacks upon
unschooling...and well, a tangled mess of emotions and issues strewn across
cyberspace! :)
Basically, this list is a lifeline for me. I find it to be good fellowship,
outspoken and very clear advice and opinions that make me think and want to do
better as a parent. And as a result, I feel I have.
Karen
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
~~"I suggest you stay clear of unschoolingbasics. The owner there
assumes that she is the only one who is right and if she doesn't like
what you have to say will jump all over you and then put you on
moderated posts, or delete what you have to say because it
doesn't "fit" into her way of thinking. She does nothing but push
freedom and free speech, etc. yet she finds it okay to moderate people
or delete what they have to say. That makes no sense. Today's
highlights were mainly about how it is fine for your kid to view pono
movies, including hardcore, if they choose to. Most of the main
contributors of posts love to jump on anyone that shows any signs of
actually being a parent to their children, and looking out for them."~~
____________________________________________________________
Ren, I have seen VERY few "snarky" comments. I have seen things said less
sensitively that *I* would put it - but that really is sooooo individualistic
and how one reads an email vs hears a speaking tone always comes into play.
I find this list challenging! And I LOVE that. I need the challenge - to get
me to think, HARD, abut the kids, my parenting, what is good for all of us,
myself too. I am glad for this challenge. I am trying hard to face up to it. I
have also found that I can take what I like and leave the rest. So can
anyone else.
As I said in another note to a different person here, I do feel that there
have been a few reactionary comments and I thought it was due to members here
feeling attacked. I came here right as those religious posts (I think it was
them, it may have been a different person though) and attacks were happening.
Since then, I have seen what appears to be some defensiveness. That person,
now not a member, was outright rude and claimed we didn't parent our
children. It wasn't nice at all, and I just assumed some of that stress and tension
has been carried over a bit due to that. In other words, a poster's questions
might feel like an attack on unschooling or on parenting, when in fact the
frustration and stress from the poster is only that - frustration in their
personal situation. A reader may then read it as if there were attacks upon
unschooling...and well, a tangled mess of emotions and issues strewn across
cyberspace! :)
Basically, this list is a lifeline for me. I find it to be good fellowship,
outspoken and very clear advice and opinions that make me think and want to do
better as a parent. And as a result, I feel I have.
Karen
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
j50yab
Thank you
Sarah
Sarah
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/31/2007 6:10:39 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
ecurley@... writes:
Ren, you asked how is it possible for someone to miss the point. I
don't know what the answer to that is. I wish I knew.
I know I know, pick me!
Oh, wait, that's a schooly thing ;)
But really - things are taken as personal criticisms, people assume things
and can't hear due to their own blocked ideas. They, some that is, have a need
to be "right" for themselves. The thing is, it's ok to be wrong, whatever
that means. What matters is that we stay open to ideas and concepts! That's how
*I* learn from this list, and in general. As I said before, take what you
like, leave the rest. Perhaps their own discomfort is what is causing the
argumentative behavior, so they miss the point due to that. Fear, too. Fear's a
biggie I think too...Fear-based living that is, not an actual feeling scared of
something...
Hmmm...
Karen
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecurley@... writes:
Ren, you asked how is it possible for someone to miss the point. I
don't know what the answer to that is. I wish I knew.
I know I know, pick me!
Oh, wait, that's a schooly thing ;)
But really - things are taken as personal criticisms, people assume things
and can't hear due to their own blocked ideas. They, some that is, have a need
to be "right" for themselves. The thing is, it's ok to be wrong, whatever
that means. What matters is that we stay open to ideas and concepts! That's how
*I* learn from this list, and in general. As I said before, take what you
like, leave the rest. Perhaps their own discomfort is what is causing the
argumentative behavior, so they miss the point due to that. Fear, too. Fear's a
biggie I think too...Fear-based living that is, not an actual feeling scared of
something...
Hmmm...
Karen
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
diana jenner
On 7/31/07, Kidgie@... <Kidgie@...> wrote:
Reminds me of another great saying: Some folks would rather be right than
happy.
It's the darn sad truth. When I get all up in angst, I ask myself which am I
striving for?
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>-=-
>
> In a message dated 7/31/2007 6:10:39 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> ecurley@... <ecurley%40triad.rr.com> writes:
>
> Ren, you asked how is it possible for someone to miss the point. I
> don't know what the answer to that is. I wish I knew.
>
> But really - things are taken as personal criticisms, people assume things
>
> and can't hear due to their own blocked ideas. They, some that is, have a
> need
> to be "right" for themselves.
>
Reminds me of another great saying: Some folks would rather be right than
happy.
It's the darn sad truth. When I get all up in angst, I ask myself which am I
striving for?
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/31/2007 11:11:22 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
supenn@... writes:
Sorry for tossing fuel on that particular fire.
Su
Su, your post, to me, was wonderful!!! I really GOT it, and it helped me
rethink some things about my past and...fear based thinking! So, thank you, k?
Karen
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
supenn@... writes:
Sorry for tossing fuel on that particular fire.
Su
Su, your post, to me, was wonderful!!! I really GOT it, and it helped me
rethink some things about my past and...fear based thinking! So, thank you, k?
Karen
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Paul D. Fernhout
Ren Allen wrote:
censored (beyond being moderately delayed), but obviously this person
misunderstands what is being said here, because the posters in relation to
TV programs say TV program choice is often the beginning of a dialog, not
the end of one. And in general, almost all unschooling parents are spending
a lot more time with their kids and spending a lot more intellectual and
emotional effort trying to reach good decisions with and for kids -- the
complete opposite of an effortless dumping of kids into the day-prison
called school 7am-3pm weekdays. If people can't see that after reading this
list, obviously they just don't want to see it.
Still, beyond what I saw as negative comments directed to Maura's writings,
and then further defenses of those when Maura pointed that out, it seems
that assumptions were made as to her background (or mine for that matter). I
think Maura rightly called some people on it (and as she says elsewhere,
she's not the person posting about that in another list anyway). Such
comments are understandable on this list given its history and also some
unschoolers maybe feeling sometimes perhaps in a threatened minority (as the
above quoted comment from another list shows), but it still doesn't make it
feel that friendly. I'm not saying it should or should not feel friendly,
I'm just pointing out why for many newcomers it might not seem friendly --
related to assumptions. Once might expect people coming to the list to have
mistaken assumptions (after all they are new) but one might hope old hands
on a list might make less assumptions of newcomers. Look again at Maura's
situation -- a long time homeschooler and self-labeled unschooler, almost
singlehandedly managing a block of kids sometimes. There is a lot to respect
there.
And she (or I) certainly aren't making "snarky" comments like, say, here:
http://suburbanturmoil.blogspot.com/2006/11/unschooling-updated.html
but the response somehow feels seems more in line as if we had. (There's
some good defense of unschooling there in the comments too, by the way.)
In my own case, I agree very much with the unschooling approach and have for
years -- I just happen to think TV is more insidiously dangerous than most
people here feel it is (especially for young children whose brains are
either still growing rapidly or who have trouble distinguishing between
fantasy and reality -- but also to a lesser degree for other ages, including
parents. :-) Obviously most (but not all) people currently on this list
disagree with this assessment of risk versus reward and think TV an overall
positive, especially as managed in unschooling families. So, it's not the
unschooling philosophy I disagree with, it's the assessment of risk/reward
for one particular (large) aspect of modern life (TV) for our family at this
particular time. Other people make other decisions in what cars they feel
drive with their kids, where they live with their kids, whether or when to
give kids guns or fireworks or knives, and so on. Still, even without a
hooked-up TV which I still consider too dangerous to use right now for a
young child, we live in a place with dangerous packs of coyotes and
potentially troublesome bears and hard-to-see bobcats that will drop out of
the trees on their prey (young kids?) -- so we just have a different view of
risk/reward. Our dogs help minimize those risks somewhat, as does a fence,
as does parental vigilance -- just as there are several ways many
unschoolers attempt to minimize risk for TV watching. No doubt some person
here might think where we live is too dangerous a place for a young child
and not worth the benefits, even as I think a TV in the living room is too
dangerous for a young child and not worth the benefits. In the case of TV, I
responded directly to a question of my views of TV. This isn't to reopen the
TV argument, just to point out where I am coming from related to unschooling.
If you want to contemplate why other people (maybe not that specific quoted
poster) might look at this list so differently relative to how the people on
it feel about it, I think some of the questions and comments Maura posted
about real situations and their implications indirectly show why people
might consider unschooling as depicted on this list as sometimes
questionable (and if not "cookie cuter" than some unschooling version of an
unrealistic "Father Knows Best" with the child obviously playing a starring
role. :-)
For example, consider Maura's pointing out the impracticality of rounding up
the neighbors' kids to go to a paint ball park. Also, consider the seeming
non-acceptance by some people here that such an alternative solution of
playing in a paintball park at well defined times and with proper safety
equipment and well-defined ground rules (like only willing participants get
shot at) -- even if accepted by the child -- was still essentially a "no" in
relation to what her son really wanted to do right then and there of run
wild with an airgun and friends. There are a lot of potentially dangerous
things in our society that are often managed as staged processes of learning
and proving increasing trustworthiness over a period of time -- martial
arts, learning to fly, learning to drive, practicing emergency medicine,
being a wilderness guide, and so on. I think the lack of great answers to
this specific issue and Maura's rebuttals on it shows a weakness in an
overly broad *philosophical* position of maximum freedom for the child to
chose their own activities which many here seem to maintain (even as their
excellent *practice* of unschooling seems fantastic). There is a big hole,
which Maura points out, related to incremental trust -- to earning trust to
work with ever greater resources or ever more dangerous resources, and to
explain that process to the child (Note: it is somewhat similar to the
process of earning incremental powers in video games as kids level up after
hard work. :-). And that tension between theory and practice is then
disturbing to many who are not on this list (as well as a few on it).
Essentially, in practice, rather than say "no", most unschoolers according
to what people here say usually try very hard to find a way to say "yes" to
at least part of a request (given their level of trust in the child's
current abilities and decision making skills related to the activity).
Often, that is enough to satisfy a kid. But, as I see it, and as many others
see it, that is still saying "no" or "setting limits" -- even if the limits
are not spelled out in hard and fast rules. A pattern repeated here again
and again as a suggested approach to a child's request beyond some implicit
internal (often unacknowledged) parental limit of trust or resources is
essentially often a variant of: "(implicit no) -- here is why -- and how
about a related idea as a compromise distraction?" So, the response to an
unacceptable request which goes beyond an implicit parental limit is
essentially a refusal (even if the word "no" is not used), then an
explanation (or dialog), and a compromise substitute. And that is often what
is suggested many modern books on parenting these days. It's a great
approach. And I see nothing wrong with that from a practical point of view.
And many people here seem to have taken that idea to a wonderful and
creative extreme with good results reported. But, I and others do find it
problematical when it seems like unschoolers are trying to claim they don't
set limits or say "no" -- when it seems obvious they do, just in a generally
more humane and creative way.
For some people, living in a world of implicit limits may even seem
worse than living in a world of explicit limits -- since you never know as a
kid when you will get a "discussion" or "frown" (punishments from some kids'
point of view?) for breaking an implicit rule or passing an invisible fence
you never knew was there. It's not at all the same situation, but to show
how there can be unintended consequences to everything, John Holt writes in
one of his books how the most terrified kids he ever taught were actually
ones from an upper middle class school which focused on constant praise, and
he said the kids essentially lived in terror of not being praised. He
suggested in that case the very real fear they felt was greater than if the
school has just disciplined the kids severely for any wrong answer. Related
link:
http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm
Now, I'm not suggesting unschooling kids live in terror or that they get too
much praise -- this is just an analogy to unintended consequences of
anything, even a lot of choices, that seems like a good thing. [Actually,
even having a lot of choices can be its own sort of tyranny, see:
http://www.alternet.org/story/18390 ]
But, I would suggest for some kids, in some situations, having clear
boundaries may be better and promote more creativity within them than having
vague ones which must always be wondered about as a cause of stress.
I think most mainstream parents would have less problems with unschooling
(even radical unschooling or even "unparenting") presented as "we supervise
and interact with our younger kids a lot, and we try to refuse as little as
possible, and when we do set limits, we try to do that as humanely as
possible, explaining as much a possible, and and with as much compromise as
we (the parents) feel is reasonable in order to support as much of the
original intent of the child as possible, considering the needs and
limitations of everyone in the family. It takes a lot of time and energy,
much more so than mainstream parenting in many ways. We do this because
(pick one or more of) we believe practicing using judgment results in
developing judgment, or we believe in the value of childhood in its own
right, or we believe freedom is its own value, or we believe whatever else.
I think that is somehow a more complete expression of it -- including that
it takes a lot of hard work.
As an analogy, consider nursing. So much pro-nursing literature tries to
make it look easy and "natural" in order to encourage new mothers to try it,
and also as there is an aspect of self-fulfilling prophecy there. But then
when it is hard (as it often is, as our society has lost the
inter-generational handing down of technique and confidence in part due to
1950s doctoring), and as problems arise, it's easy for new mothers to just
quit out of frustration, or even just blame themselves -- as in, if it is so
easy and natural, what is wrong with me that it is so hard or takes so much
time and attention? Perhaps it's better for unschoolers, as perhaps with
nursing, to say up front -- this is often very hard in terms of parental
time and effort, but it is worth it for all these benefits (X, Y, and Z), so
it is a great long term investment for you and your kids if you can afford
it right now."
Anyway, I feel (from an outside point of view) there is a confusion between
obviously working *technique* (of family-oriented compromise, sometimes
labeled "unschooling") and seemingly implausible *theory* (of complete
individual freedom, as if there were no current limits just because they are
not spelled out in advance) as it is seems to be presented here sometimes.
Not surprisingly, differences between practice and theory happens all the
time in engineering and science. The engineers (like the people on this
list) come up with a way to do something the scientists (mainstream parents
and mainstream educators?) with all their theories say is impossible (like
perhaps to someday travel faster than light, or perhaps to let older
unschooled kids have unlimited access to TV or Video Games :-) and then,
eventually, the scientists revise the theory, and change it to fit the facts.
As an analogy, in some towns in the Netherlands that have removed all
traffic signs and lights and speed bumps and find traffic fatalities go down
-- and the theory is something like that drivers become more cautious around
pedestrians when they don't have obvious traffic signals.
This list represents facts as to successful practice in many families, but I
think for various reasons it sometimes lacks a good way of articulating a
good enough theoretical framework to newcomers to explain why the practices
work (in practice) as well as they do -- as opposed to why they should not
work in theory according to some theories -- either mainstream or ones
floated here. :-)
--Paul Fernhout
> I'm bringing something from another list here for discussion. It'sI can't speak to censorship as I don't think any of my posts have been
> interesting to me, how people will bash this list and exclude the
> truth about our discussions here. The following is what was posted
> from a member right here at UB:
>
> ~~"I suggest you stay clear of unschoolingbasics. The owner there
> assumes that she is the only one who is right and if she doesn't like
> what you have to say will jump all over you and then put you on
> moderated posts, or delete what you have to say because it
> doesn't "fit" into her way of thinking. She does nothing but push
> freedom and free speech, etc. yet she finds it okay to moderate people
> or delete what they have to say. That makes no sense. Today's
> highlights were mainly about how it is fine for your kid to view pono
> movies, including hardcore, if they choose to. Most of the main
> contributors of posts love to jump on anyone that shows any signs of
> actually being a parent to their children, and looking out for them."~~
censored (beyond being moderately delayed), but obviously this person
misunderstands what is being said here, because the posters in relation to
TV programs say TV program choice is often the beginning of a dialog, not
the end of one. And in general, almost all unschooling parents are spending
a lot more time with their kids and spending a lot more intellectual and
emotional effort trying to reach good decisions with and for kids -- the
complete opposite of an effortless dumping of kids into the day-prison
called school 7am-3pm weekdays. If people can't see that after reading this
list, obviously they just don't want to see it.
Still, beyond what I saw as negative comments directed to Maura's writings,
and then further defenses of those when Maura pointed that out, it seems
that assumptions were made as to her background (or mine for that matter). I
think Maura rightly called some people on it (and as she says elsewhere,
she's not the person posting about that in another list anyway). Such
comments are understandable on this list given its history and also some
unschoolers maybe feeling sometimes perhaps in a threatened minority (as the
above quoted comment from another list shows), but it still doesn't make it
feel that friendly. I'm not saying it should or should not feel friendly,
I'm just pointing out why for many newcomers it might not seem friendly --
related to assumptions. Once might expect people coming to the list to have
mistaken assumptions (after all they are new) but one might hope old hands
on a list might make less assumptions of newcomers. Look again at Maura's
situation -- a long time homeschooler and self-labeled unschooler, almost
singlehandedly managing a block of kids sometimes. There is a lot to respect
there.
And she (or I) certainly aren't making "snarky" comments like, say, here:
http://suburbanturmoil.blogspot.com/2006/11/unschooling-updated.html
but the response somehow feels seems more in line as if we had. (There's
some good defense of unschooling there in the comments too, by the way.)
In my own case, I agree very much with the unschooling approach and have for
years -- I just happen to think TV is more insidiously dangerous than most
people here feel it is (especially for young children whose brains are
either still growing rapidly or who have trouble distinguishing between
fantasy and reality -- but also to a lesser degree for other ages, including
parents. :-) Obviously most (but not all) people currently on this list
disagree with this assessment of risk versus reward and think TV an overall
positive, especially as managed in unschooling families. So, it's not the
unschooling philosophy I disagree with, it's the assessment of risk/reward
for one particular (large) aspect of modern life (TV) for our family at this
particular time. Other people make other decisions in what cars they feel
drive with their kids, where they live with their kids, whether or when to
give kids guns or fireworks or knives, and so on. Still, even without a
hooked-up TV which I still consider too dangerous to use right now for a
young child, we live in a place with dangerous packs of coyotes and
potentially troublesome bears and hard-to-see bobcats that will drop out of
the trees on their prey (young kids?) -- so we just have a different view of
risk/reward. Our dogs help minimize those risks somewhat, as does a fence,
as does parental vigilance -- just as there are several ways many
unschoolers attempt to minimize risk for TV watching. No doubt some person
here might think where we live is too dangerous a place for a young child
and not worth the benefits, even as I think a TV in the living room is too
dangerous for a young child and not worth the benefits. In the case of TV, I
responded directly to a question of my views of TV. This isn't to reopen the
TV argument, just to point out where I am coming from related to unschooling.
If you want to contemplate why other people (maybe not that specific quoted
poster) might look at this list so differently relative to how the people on
it feel about it, I think some of the questions and comments Maura posted
about real situations and their implications indirectly show why people
might consider unschooling as depicted on this list as sometimes
questionable (and if not "cookie cuter" than some unschooling version of an
unrealistic "Father Knows Best" with the child obviously playing a starring
role. :-)
For example, consider Maura's pointing out the impracticality of rounding up
the neighbors' kids to go to a paint ball park. Also, consider the seeming
non-acceptance by some people here that such an alternative solution of
playing in a paintball park at well defined times and with proper safety
equipment and well-defined ground rules (like only willing participants get
shot at) -- even if accepted by the child -- was still essentially a "no" in
relation to what her son really wanted to do right then and there of run
wild with an airgun and friends. There are a lot of potentially dangerous
things in our society that are often managed as staged processes of learning
and proving increasing trustworthiness over a period of time -- martial
arts, learning to fly, learning to drive, practicing emergency medicine,
being a wilderness guide, and so on. I think the lack of great answers to
this specific issue and Maura's rebuttals on it shows a weakness in an
overly broad *philosophical* position of maximum freedom for the child to
chose their own activities which many here seem to maintain (even as their
excellent *practice* of unschooling seems fantastic). There is a big hole,
which Maura points out, related to incremental trust -- to earning trust to
work with ever greater resources or ever more dangerous resources, and to
explain that process to the child (Note: it is somewhat similar to the
process of earning incremental powers in video games as kids level up after
hard work. :-). And that tension between theory and practice is then
disturbing to many who are not on this list (as well as a few on it).
Essentially, in practice, rather than say "no", most unschoolers according
to what people here say usually try very hard to find a way to say "yes" to
at least part of a request (given their level of trust in the child's
current abilities and decision making skills related to the activity).
Often, that is enough to satisfy a kid. But, as I see it, and as many others
see it, that is still saying "no" or "setting limits" -- even if the limits
are not spelled out in hard and fast rules. A pattern repeated here again
and again as a suggested approach to a child's request beyond some implicit
internal (often unacknowledged) parental limit of trust or resources is
essentially often a variant of: "(implicit no) -- here is why -- and how
about a related idea as a compromise distraction?" So, the response to an
unacceptable request which goes beyond an implicit parental limit is
essentially a refusal (even if the word "no" is not used), then an
explanation (or dialog), and a compromise substitute. And that is often what
is suggested many modern books on parenting these days. It's a great
approach. And I see nothing wrong with that from a practical point of view.
And many people here seem to have taken that idea to a wonderful and
creative extreme with good results reported. But, I and others do find it
problematical when it seems like unschoolers are trying to claim they don't
set limits or say "no" -- when it seems obvious they do, just in a generally
more humane and creative way.
For some people, living in a world of implicit limits may even seem
worse than living in a world of explicit limits -- since you never know as a
kid when you will get a "discussion" or "frown" (punishments from some kids'
point of view?) for breaking an implicit rule or passing an invisible fence
you never knew was there. It's not at all the same situation, but to show
how there can be unintended consequences to everything, John Holt writes in
one of his books how the most terrified kids he ever taught were actually
ones from an upper middle class school which focused on constant praise, and
he said the kids essentially lived in terror of not being praised. He
suggested in that case the very real fear they felt was greater than if the
school has just disciplined the kids severely for any wrong answer. Related
link:
http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm
Now, I'm not suggesting unschooling kids live in terror or that they get too
much praise -- this is just an analogy to unintended consequences of
anything, even a lot of choices, that seems like a good thing. [Actually,
even having a lot of choices can be its own sort of tyranny, see:
http://www.alternet.org/story/18390 ]
But, I would suggest for some kids, in some situations, having clear
boundaries may be better and promote more creativity within them than having
vague ones which must always be wondered about as a cause of stress.
I think most mainstream parents would have less problems with unschooling
(even radical unschooling or even "unparenting") presented as "we supervise
and interact with our younger kids a lot, and we try to refuse as little as
possible, and when we do set limits, we try to do that as humanely as
possible, explaining as much a possible, and and with as much compromise as
we (the parents) feel is reasonable in order to support as much of the
original intent of the child as possible, considering the needs and
limitations of everyone in the family. It takes a lot of time and energy,
much more so than mainstream parenting in many ways. We do this because
(pick one or more of) we believe practicing using judgment results in
developing judgment, or we believe in the value of childhood in its own
right, or we believe freedom is its own value, or we believe whatever else.
I think that is somehow a more complete expression of it -- including that
it takes a lot of hard work.
As an analogy, consider nursing. So much pro-nursing literature tries to
make it look easy and "natural" in order to encourage new mothers to try it,
and also as there is an aspect of self-fulfilling prophecy there. But then
when it is hard (as it often is, as our society has lost the
inter-generational handing down of technique and confidence in part due to
1950s doctoring), and as problems arise, it's easy for new mothers to just
quit out of frustration, or even just blame themselves -- as in, if it is so
easy and natural, what is wrong with me that it is so hard or takes so much
time and attention? Perhaps it's better for unschoolers, as perhaps with
nursing, to say up front -- this is often very hard in terms of parental
time and effort, but it is worth it for all these benefits (X, Y, and Z), so
it is a great long term investment for you and your kids if you can afford
it right now."
Anyway, I feel (from an outside point of view) there is a confusion between
obviously working *technique* (of family-oriented compromise, sometimes
labeled "unschooling") and seemingly implausible *theory* (of complete
individual freedom, as if there were no current limits just because they are
not spelled out in advance) as it is seems to be presented here sometimes.
Not surprisingly, differences between practice and theory happens all the
time in engineering and science. The engineers (like the people on this
list) come up with a way to do something the scientists (mainstream parents
and mainstream educators?) with all their theories say is impossible (like
perhaps to someday travel faster than light, or perhaps to let older
unschooled kids have unlimited access to TV or Video Games :-) and then,
eventually, the scientists revise the theory, and change it to fit the facts.
As an analogy, in some towns in the Netherlands that have removed all
traffic signs and lights and speed bumps and find traffic fatalities go down
-- and the theory is something like that drivers become more cautious around
pedestrians when they don't have obvious traffic signals.
This list represents facts as to successful practice in many families, but I
think for various reasons it sometimes lacks a good way of articulating a
good enough theoretical framework to newcomers to explain why the practices
work (in practice) as well as they do -- as opposed to why they should not
work in theory according to some theories -- either mainstream or ones
floated here. :-)
--Paul Fernhout
Christy Mahoney
>But we cannot make those who are giving of themselves (many forthat
> hours a day---away from their own children!) to do it in a way
> appeals to each and every lurker/poster.I agree with this and do not expect a certain tone from posts, but
then I've been at this list since it began, I think.
I do feel that this list has long ago outgrown its description and
title, as many long-time unschoolers and posters here have become
more critical of newbies, sometimes grilling them with accusatory
questions. That's probably just the nature of doing something for a
long time and having the same questions repeated, but if people come
here looking for basics, I don't believe that's what they find.
I know that it is difficult for me to remember how I used to think
before unschooling :)
-Christy
Vickisue Gray
I can see your point but I was new to homeschooling last year.
I joined numerous groups so I could learn. Each and every group
invited me to read the archives. This is one of the groups that
I've stayed with (currently active in 26 groups, lol, still learning)
and I can tell you from personal experience, this group is one
of the least judge-mental or non-helpful groups out there.
I have found that they many 'cross-exam' a post, but personally,
I find that makes you really look at just what is the underlying question.
I, personally, would like you all to keep doing what you do.
My opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
Vicki
----- Original Message ----
From: Christy Mahoney <unschooling1@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 1:57:18 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Snarky comments//teens-gone-wild/this list
then I've been at this list since it began, I think.
I do feel that this list has long ago outgrown its description and
title, as many long-time unschoolers and posters here have become
more critical of newbies, sometimes grilling them with accusatory
questions. That's probably just the nature of doing something for a
long time and having the same questions repeated, but if people come
here looking for basics, I don't believe that's what they find.
I know that it is difficult for me to remember how I used to think
before unschooling :)
-Christy
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I joined numerous groups so I could learn. Each and every group
invited me to read the archives. This is one of the groups that
I've stayed with (currently active in 26 groups, lol, still learning)
and I can tell you from personal experience, this group is one
of the least judge-mental or non-helpful groups out there.
I have found that they many 'cross-exam' a post, but personally,
I find that makes you really look at just what is the underlying question.
I, personally, would like you all to keep doing what you do.
My opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
Vicki
----- Original Message ----
From: Christy Mahoney <unschooling1@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 1:57:18 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Snarky comments//teens-gone-wild/this list
>But we cannot make those who are giving of themselves (many forthat
> hours a day---away from their own children!) to do it in a way
> appeals to each and every lurker/poster.I agree with this and do not expect a certain tone from posts, but
then I've been at this list since it began, I think.
I do feel that this list has long ago outgrown its description and
title, as many long-time unschoolers and posters here have become
more critical of newbies, sometimes grilling them with accusatory
questions. That's probably just the nature of doing something for a
long time and having the same questions repeated, but if people come
here looking for basics, I don't believe that's what they find.
I know that it is difficult for me to remember how I used to think
before unschooling :)
-Christy
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
but if people come
here looking for basics, I don't believe that's what they find.
I agree. When I joined this list, I expected Unschooling Basics and feel I got "Advanced Radical Unschooling." Not that its a bad thing......I learn so much here. Some of us have lives that are not as conducive to RU for various reasons and we are trying to incorporate these ways of living into structures that do no presuppose conditions that ideally facilitate RU. Like having one parent home full-time, etc. The ideal is to unschool from the beginning, of course, but I am sure many of us did not for various reasons and probably mostly lurk. I just try and grow and learn each day. I take what I can from the list and try and incorporate it into my life.
Kathryn
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Christy Mahoney" <unschooling1@...>
then I've been at this list since it began, I think.
I do feel that this list has long ago outgrown its description and
title, as many long-time unschoolers and posters here have become
more critical of newbies, sometimes grilling them with accusatory
questions. That's probably just the nature of doing something for a
long time and having the same questions repeated, but if people come
here looking for basics, I don't believe that's what they find.
I know that it is difficult for me to remember how I used to think
before unschooling :)
-Christy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
here looking for basics, I don't believe that's what they find.
I agree. When I joined this list, I expected Unschooling Basics and feel I got "Advanced Radical Unschooling." Not that its a bad thing......I learn so much here. Some of us have lives that are not as conducive to RU for various reasons and we are trying to incorporate these ways of living into structures that do no presuppose conditions that ideally facilitate RU. Like having one parent home full-time, etc. The ideal is to unschool from the beginning, of course, but I am sure many of us did not for various reasons and probably mostly lurk. I just try and grow and learn each day. I take what I can from the list and try and incorporate it into my life.
Kathryn
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Christy Mahoney" <unschooling1@...>
>But we cannot make those who are giving of themselves (many forthat
> hours a day---away from their own children!) to do it in a way
> appeals to each and every lurker/poster.I agree with this and do not expect a certain tone from posts, but
then I've been at this list since it began, I think.
I do feel that this list has long ago outgrown its description and
title, as many long-time unschoolers and posters here have become
more critical of newbies, sometimes grilling them with accusatory
questions. That's probably just the nature of doing something for a
long time and having the same questions repeated, but if people come
here looking for basics, I don't believe that's what they find.
I know that it is difficult for me to remember how I used to think
before unschooling :)
-Christy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Shannon Barniskis
Yay for Paul!
he said: "(implicit no) -- here is why -- and how about a related idea as a compromise distraction?" So, the response to an unacceptable request which goes beyond an implicit parental limit is essentially a refusal (even if the word "no" is not used), then an explanation (or dialog), and a compromise substitute. And that is often what
is suggested many modern books on parenting these days. It's a great approach. "
This is what I've noticed in many of the posts here: people are busy vigorously upholding the RU ideal that they're claiming they set few limits on their children. Bu there's a trust/wisdom conundrum. Obviously no one here would give a 2 year old welding gear limit-free. But RU parents are more likely to let the small ones try welding with a LOT of limits placed on the activity until they're proven to have some level of wisdom about the dangers involved. That's also why I (prepare yourself for RU heresy here) limit the amount of time my kids watch TV and playcomputer games. *gasp* Obviously there's a whole different level of danger tv to acetylene torches, but no less serious in my mind. Perhaps your kids were born inherently balanced and wise, but mine will do nothing but play RuneScape all day if it's allowed, (and sometimes it is). I think RuneScape is a very valuable activity. So is dancing, and cleaning your room, and reading a book, and climbing trees and hanging out with your family...all of those things are limited here, though I frankly don't have to set too many limits on excessive room-cleaning!
Thing is, we can argue all day about whether TV has any inherent worth (yes & no--it's a tool, depends on how you use it) and whether limiting use of video games makes me a bad RU mommy, but I see my job as helping my children to acquire wisdom, and the way we've chosen to do so is by making "all things in moderation" our mantra. You may choose to help your children aquire wisdom in a different way. I get the feeling many of you teach wisdom the "sink or swim' way in which you let your kids immerse themselves in whatever impulse they have at any given moment. Which could be very empowering for the kid and I hope it works out for anyone who does that. I believe that my kids would suffer a lot of sinking that I can easily prevent by simply requiring them to aim for balance. It's funny, I read the link given by Paul the suburban turmoil lady (who was an imbecile, mostly) but she had a point about the freedom from TV addiction her mom gave her when she was 8. No one likes to be told "no you can't do this thing you enjoy all day, do something else", but it's something I believe is necessary for kids--my kids anyway, I can't presume to know what's best for yours.
And some adults probably--me being one of them!--could be told the same thing. The difference is that I've learned to deal with my impulse control (sort of) and my kids haven't. They see something they want this second, and everything else falls away, including the bigger picture things they want (i.e that kid refusing swim class to stay with cousins could be my daughter--who will sometimes claim not to want to go to dance class when she's immersed in something else--but in fact dance class is her passion and once she's there she's very glad of it. You may think I'm interpreting this wrongly, but it's true--she sometimes doesn't know what she really wants--she just knows her immediate desires.)
Thus the idea of letting your child's short-term desires supercede other desires in the name of freedom is not really helping, is it? You can go back and ask "When you kept playing outside and refused to go to dance class, did you regret it later?" and sometimes that's great. Or you can support your kid a little more and talk in depth before the decision of whether to go or not, to play video games or go for a walk, or whatever balanced decision needs to be made--and that's even better. We do that all the time with 2 of our kids and it works great. Somethimes they make a choice I wouldn't make, but then, I'm not them. But my 12yo daughter can rarely see past immediate gratification--and she's the kid needs to be pulled away from one thing, complaining bitterly the while, so she can do something else she actually wants more. She's the cut-off-her-nose-to-spite-her-face kind of stubborn.
So I see freedom for our kids not in absolute "you do whatever you want whenever you want it", but rather in "you make most of the choices about your life, but sometimes I'm going to act on my extra years and expericen and make a choice that you can't see from where you're at". If I'm wrong about a choice I make, I say sorry. But if I think my kids are in danger of losing a scrap of their soul I intervene. Example: I was nearly in tears reading about the kid suffering social problems related to his airgun impulse-control problems and I wanted to scream "take the gun away!" The kid can't deal with it right now, he needs to acquire more social skills before he should be shooting at people. I see absolute freedom is the worst sort of disservice in this case. Lots of limits need to be placed on that kid's use of guns until he can see that what he wants more than shooting people is enjoying his social interactions. He's too young to see that bigger picture--it's up to his parents to do so. At least that's what I see from over here. Who knows how it feels over there, in his family?
So--long post, huh? I have lots to say. I have a feeling I'm going to be reamed out for my controlling tendencies. That's not such a good sign about the comfort level for newbies on the list, you know. I've lurked for a couple of weeks and realized that reaming out is fairly common in this list. I'm Ok with it , though. I can take it because I have confidence that I'm doing the right thing for my family in terms of balance and choice. (Perhaps others weren't so comfortable and that's why they slammed you on another list.) But as a 14 year veteran of unschooling--extremely radical in that until last year we never did much "school" at all (and last year was an experiment--failed, by the way) I feel that a few of the people on this list have the idea that there's only one way to live an RU life--their way. I thought maybe they were new converts and like all new converts had a passionate ideal for "purity". Darn that whole purity thing--life messes it up every time!
Warmly, Shannon
"I've been making a list of the things they don't teach you at school. They don't teach you how to love somebody. They don't teach you how to be famous. They don't teach you how to be rich or how to be poor. They don't teach you how to walk away from someone you don't love any longer. They don't teach you how to know what's going on in someone else's mind. They don't teach you what to say to someone who's dying. They don't teach you anything worth knowing." Neil Gaiman
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
he said: "(implicit no) -- here is why -- and how about a related idea as a compromise distraction?" So, the response to an unacceptable request which goes beyond an implicit parental limit is essentially a refusal (even if the word "no" is not used), then an explanation (or dialog), and a compromise substitute. And that is often what
is suggested many modern books on parenting these days. It's a great approach. "
This is what I've noticed in many of the posts here: people are busy vigorously upholding the RU ideal that they're claiming they set few limits on their children. Bu there's a trust/wisdom conundrum. Obviously no one here would give a 2 year old welding gear limit-free. But RU parents are more likely to let the small ones try welding with a LOT of limits placed on the activity until they're proven to have some level of wisdom about the dangers involved. That's also why I (prepare yourself for RU heresy here) limit the amount of time my kids watch TV and playcomputer games. *gasp* Obviously there's a whole different level of danger tv to acetylene torches, but no less serious in my mind. Perhaps your kids were born inherently balanced and wise, but mine will do nothing but play RuneScape all day if it's allowed, (and sometimes it is). I think RuneScape is a very valuable activity. So is dancing, and cleaning your room, and reading a book, and climbing trees and hanging out with your family...all of those things are limited here, though I frankly don't have to set too many limits on excessive room-cleaning!
Thing is, we can argue all day about whether TV has any inherent worth (yes & no--it's a tool, depends on how you use it) and whether limiting use of video games makes me a bad RU mommy, but I see my job as helping my children to acquire wisdom, and the way we've chosen to do so is by making "all things in moderation" our mantra. You may choose to help your children aquire wisdom in a different way. I get the feeling many of you teach wisdom the "sink or swim' way in which you let your kids immerse themselves in whatever impulse they have at any given moment. Which could be very empowering for the kid and I hope it works out for anyone who does that. I believe that my kids would suffer a lot of sinking that I can easily prevent by simply requiring them to aim for balance. It's funny, I read the link given by Paul the suburban turmoil lady (who was an imbecile, mostly) but she had a point about the freedom from TV addiction her mom gave her when she was 8. No one likes to be told "no you can't do this thing you enjoy all day, do something else", but it's something I believe is necessary for kids--my kids anyway, I can't presume to know what's best for yours.
And some adults probably--me being one of them!--could be told the same thing. The difference is that I've learned to deal with my impulse control (sort of) and my kids haven't. They see something they want this second, and everything else falls away, including the bigger picture things they want (i.e that kid refusing swim class to stay with cousins could be my daughter--who will sometimes claim not to want to go to dance class when she's immersed in something else--but in fact dance class is her passion and once she's there she's very glad of it. You may think I'm interpreting this wrongly, but it's true--she sometimes doesn't know what she really wants--she just knows her immediate desires.)
Thus the idea of letting your child's short-term desires supercede other desires in the name of freedom is not really helping, is it? You can go back and ask "When you kept playing outside and refused to go to dance class, did you regret it later?" and sometimes that's great. Or you can support your kid a little more and talk in depth before the decision of whether to go or not, to play video games or go for a walk, or whatever balanced decision needs to be made--and that's even better. We do that all the time with 2 of our kids and it works great. Somethimes they make a choice I wouldn't make, but then, I'm not them. But my 12yo daughter can rarely see past immediate gratification--and she's the kid needs to be pulled away from one thing, complaining bitterly the while, so she can do something else she actually wants more. She's the cut-off-her-nose-to-spite-her-face kind of stubborn.
So I see freedom for our kids not in absolute "you do whatever you want whenever you want it", but rather in "you make most of the choices about your life, but sometimes I'm going to act on my extra years and expericen and make a choice that you can't see from where you're at". If I'm wrong about a choice I make, I say sorry. But if I think my kids are in danger of losing a scrap of their soul I intervene. Example: I was nearly in tears reading about the kid suffering social problems related to his airgun impulse-control problems and I wanted to scream "take the gun away!" The kid can't deal with it right now, he needs to acquire more social skills before he should be shooting at people. I see absolute freedom is the worst sort of disservice in this case. Lots of limits need to be placed on that kid's use of guns until he can see that what he wants more than shooting people is enjoying his social interactions. He's too young to see that bigger picture--it's up to his parents to do so. At least that's what I see from over here. Who knows how it feels over there, in his family?
So--long post, huh? I have lots to say. I have a feeling I'm going to be reamed out for my controlling tendencies. That's not such a good sign about the comfort level for newbies on the list, you know. I've lurked for a couple of weeks and realized that reaming out is fairly common in this list. I'm Ok with it , though. I can take it because I have confidence that I'm doing the right thing for my family in terms of balance and choice. (Perhaps others weren't so comfortable and that's why they slammed you on another list.) But as a 14 year veteran of unschooling--extremely radical in that until last year we never did much "school" at all (and last year was an experiment--failed, by the way) I feel that a few of the people on this list have the idea that there's only one way to live an RU life--their way. I thought maybe they were new converts and like all new converts had a passionate ideal for "purity". Darn that whole purity thing--life messes it up every time!
Warmly, Shannon
"I've been making a list of the things they don't teach you at school. They don't teach you how to love somebody. They don't teach you how to be famous. They don't teach you how to be rich or how to be poor. They don't teach you how to walk away from someone you don't love any longer. They don't teach you how to know what's going on in someone else's mind. They don't teach you what to say to someone who's dying. They don't teach you anything worth knowing." Neil Gaiman
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wisdomalways5
--- In [email protected], "Christy Mahoney"
<unschooling1@...> wrote:
that made me really look at what I was doing. I posted that I "make"
my 2 yr old pick up the mess she made when in a rage and put it
*works* for us. Somebody said - just because it works for you does not
mean it is "unschooling" and there is a certain unscchooling
philosophy that that kind of behavior does not work----
It really made me think and think what exactly was unschooling. I am
thankful for being called on the carpet to examine what *I* thought
was working. Which was really not working and not nice in any way
except for me.
If I had heard "well everyone does it different and there is no right
or wrong" I would have continued on the path of sortof unschooling but
missing the point.
I am thankful for the point blank questions because it helps me see
clearly- I think the name is important because it states that it is
about the "basics" of what unschooling is. A lot of new people want to
hear "its ok your doing it right" when it is NOT unschooling and they
get hurt but after they are hurt they either listen or they back off
and do what they are going to do.
I like this list because it is no nonsense and does not have the
touchy feeling feel of don't hurt anyones feelings. I like to have and
hear beliefs being challenged because that is how I grow.
So thank you
JulieH
<unschooling1@...> wrote:
>I need to chime in that it was this list and the accusatory questions
>
> I do feel that this list has long ago outgrown its description and
> title, as many long-time unschoolers and posters here have become
> more critical of newbies, sometimes grilling them with accusatory
> questions. That's probably just the nature of doing something for a
> long time and having the same questions repeated, but if people come
> here looking for basics, I don't believe that's what they find.
>
> I know that it is difficult for me to remember how I used to think
> before unschooling :)
>
> -Christy
>
that made me really look at what I was doing. I posted that I "make"
my 2 yr old pick up the mess she made when in a rage and put it
*works* for us. Somebody said - just because it works for you does not
mean it is "unschooling" and there is a certain unscchooling
philosophy that that kind of behavior does not work----
It really made me think and think what exactly was unschooling. I am
thankful for being called on the carpet to examine what *I* thought
was working. Which was really not working and not nice in any way
except for me.
If I had heard "well everyone does it different and there is no right
or wrong" I would have continued on the path of sortof unschooling but
missing the point.
I am thankful for the point blank questions because it helps me see
clearly- I think the name is important because it states that it is
about the "basics" of what unschooling is. A lot of new people want to
hear "its ok your doing it right" when it is NOT unschooling and they
get hurt but after they are hurt they either listen or they back off
and do what they are going to do.
I like this list because it is no nonsense and does not have the
touchy feeling feel of don't hurt anyones feelings. I like to have and
hear beliefs being challenged because that is how I grow.
So thank you
JulieH
Ren Allen
~~That's probably just the nature of doing something for a
~~ I need to chime in that it was this list and the accusatory
questions that made me really look at what I was doing.~~
Same here. (I should clarify that I'm quoting from two different posts
above).
Both Kelly and I (the listowners) tend to deal better with
blunt,to-the-point discussion. So it makes sense that our list leans
to the side of blunt, like us.:) We DO however, realize that a lot of
people are new to RU ideas and accept the fact that we (and many other
posters here which we are eternally grateful to for their time) will
answer the same tv/chores/food questions over and over and over
again.That's just fine.
It's "basics" because we're encouraging people to look beyond
education and see how to apply these principles to ALL of life. Just
as it says in the description. If a person is uncomfortable with that,
that's their business and their journey. We aren't here to convert
anyone, but we WILL question those that have decided it can't work for
one reason or another. Because we are living it and KNOW it can work.
I'm very patient overall, with anyone that wants to question or even
disagree. Where I get a bit cranky, is when someone gets on a list
that has a clear description and starts disrespectfully lambasting
everyone on the list for being "unparents" or telling RU members that
they are "nuts" or their kids will be "hellions".
Also, if people are on the sensitive side, blunt questions might feel
uncomfortable and they may like a list like another more "support"
based list better. I personally can't stand a lot of syrupy sweetness.
THAT will make me feel all itchy. ;)
Everyone needs to find lists that work for them..no doubt. There are
hundreds of unschooling lists available now. This list is a mere drop
in the bucket of what's available. One choice. Nobody is being chained
here and forced to stay if they don't like it. I think it's pretty
presumptuous to ask a list to change to suit each person, rather than
simply finding a list that works for you or creating one.
This list was started for exactly that reason! We didn't like the way
a list was run, so we started our own. It keeps on growing, so it must
work for some of the people.:)
What's that Bob Marley song?..."You can please some people sometimes,
but you can't please all the people all the time..."
Oh yeah. Bob had it right.
I really get exhausted sometimes at these lists, because I DON'T feel
they are the best medium for discussion. It's really difficult to
convey strong thoughts without all the body language to assist.
Just last night in Asheville, I had a discussion with an unschooling
parent about chores. Her girls are raised (Trevor is dating their dd)
for the most part but I was conveying some radically different ideas
about parenting and chores. Somehow, with diametrically opposed views,
we could discuss it and relate our stories and not get upset at all
(that's pretty typical in real life discussions I've found) even
though we strongly disagree.
We had a great night and laughed a lot. Live interactions are a lot
less tricky in many ways. I also think we tend to post exactly what
we're thinking, when in real life it gets tempered to some degree?
Perhaps.
Anyhoo, the list IS a "basics" list for those seeking the RU lifestyle
or trying to glean ideas from it. It's a discussion list, leaned
towards the idea that people WANT to learn about applying RU
principles to all of life, not just education. It's also a secular
list which some new folks don't realize and just assume we're all
going to say "amen" when they talk about their faith. That's ok. We
get this kind of stuff every few weeks. It somes and goes just like
the tv discussions.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
> long time and having the same questions repeated, but if people comeI would disagree.
> here looking for basics, I don't believe that's what they find.~~
~~ I need to chime in that it was this list and the accusatory
questions that made me really look at what I was doing.~~
Same here. (I should clarify that I'm quoting from two different posts
above).
Both Kelly and I (the listowners) tend to deal better with
blunt,to-the-point discussion. So it makes sense that our list leans
to the side of blunt, like us.:) We DO however, realize that a lot of
people are new to RU ideas and accept the fact that we (and many other
posters here which we are eternally grateful to for their time) will
answer the same tv/chores/food questions over and over and over
again.That's just fine.
It's "basics" because we're encouraging people to look beyond
education and see how to apply these principles to ALL of life. Just
as it says in the description. If a person is uncomfortable with that,
that's their business and their journey. We aren't here to convert
anyone, but we WILL question those that have decided it can't work for
one reason or another. Because we are living it and KNOW it can work.
I'm very patient overall, with anyone that wants to question or even
disagree. Where I get a bit cranky, is when someone gets on a list
that has a clear description and starts disrespectfully lambasting
everyone on the list for being "unparents" or telling RU members that
they are "nuts" or their kids will be "hellions".
Also, if people are on the sensitive side, blunt questions might feel
uncomfortable and they may like a list like another more "support"
based list better. I personally can't stand a lot of syrupy sweetness.
THAT will make me feel all itchy. ;)
Everyone needs to find lists that work for them..no doubt. There are
hundreds of unschooling lists available now. This list is a mere drop
in the bucket of what's available. One choice. Nobody is being chained
here and forced to stay if they don't like it. I think it's pretty
presumptuous to ask a list to change to suit each person, rather than
simply finding a list that works for you or creating one.
This list was started for exactly that reason! We didn't like the way
a list was run, so we started our own. It keeps on growing, so it must
work for some of the people.:)
What's that Bob Marley song?..."You can please some people sometimes,
but you can't please all the people all the time..."
Oh yeah. Bob had it right.
I really get exhausted sometimes at these lists, because I DON'T feel
they are the best medium for discussion. It's really difficult to
convey strong thoughts without all the body language to assist.
Just last night in Asheville, I had a discussion with an unschooling
parent about chores. Her girls are raised (Trevor is dating their dd)
for the most part but I was conveying some radically different ideas
about parenting and chores. Somehow, with diametrically opposed views,
we could discuss it and relate our stories and not get upset at all
(that's pretty typical in real life discussions I've found) even
though we strongly disagree.
We had a great night and laughed a lot. Live interactions are a lot
less tricky in many ways. I also think we tend to post exactly what
we're thinking, when in real life it gets tempered to some degree?
Perhaps.
Anyhoo, the list IS a "basics" list for those seeking the RU lifestyle
or trying to glean ideas from it. It's a discussion list, leaned
towards the idea that people WANT to learn about applying RU
principles to all of life, not just education. It's also a secular
list which some new folks don't realize and just assume we're all
going to say "amen" when they talk about their faith. That's ok. We
get this kind of stuff every few weeks. It somes and goes just like
the tv discussions.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
~~Some of us have lives that are not as conducive to RU for various
reasons and we are trying to incorporate these ways of living into
structures that do no presuppose conditions that ideally facilitate
RU. Like having one parent home full-time, etc.~~
I think that people somehow assume some ideal situation for those of
us that are passionate about RU. It's really pretty far from the
truth. We CHOOSE the RU lifestyle, not because we have some perfectly
conducive lifestyle but because it WORKS!
I work full-time outside the home. So does dh. Not ideal.
I hear about challenging children and how RU just can't work for that
family. Uh-uh...living that one as anyone who knows my family can attest.
I hear how hard it is to transition to RU from more mainstream styles.
Been there, done that.
I have good friends that deal with depression, cancer or other very
difficult issues....they manage to RU.
The truth is, all of it comes down to choice.
A person can find a million reasons why RU won't work for their
family, all of them valid to that person. Problem is, there are many
RU families out there that are making it work with those very same
challeges.
RU isn't about never having limits. Its about how one approaches those
"limits" (I choose to see them as challenges or just plain-old natural
flow). RU isn't about some "ideal" family. It's about how a family
navigates the less than ideal.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
reasons and we are trying to incorporate these ways of living into
structures that do no presuppose conditions that ideally facilitate
RU. Like having one parent home full-time, etc.~~
I think that people somehow assume some ideal situation for those of
us that are passionate about RU. It's really pretty far from the
truth. We CHOOSE the RU lifestyle, not because we have some perfectly
conducive lifestyle but because it WORKS!
I work full-time outside the home. So does dh. Not ideal.
I hear about challenging children and how RU just can't work for that
family. Uh-uh...living that one as anyone who knows my family can attest.
I hear how hard it is to transition to RU from more mainstream styles.
Been there, done that.
I have good friends that deal with depression, cancer or other very
difficult issues....they manage to RU.
The truth is, all of it comes down to choice.
A person can find a million reasons why RU won't work for their
family, all of them valid to that person. Problem is, there are many
RU families out there that are making it work with those very same
challeges.
RU isn't about never having limits. Its about how one approaches those
"limits" (I choose to see them as challenges or just plain-old natural
flow). RU isn't about some "ideal" family. It's about how a family
navigates the less than ideal.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Paul D. Fernhout"
<pdfernhout@...> wrote:
this discussion comes from a lack of specific examples. I think
Joyce brought that up, too, and its a fairly important point.
*Because* radical unschooling is about individual parents'
relationships with unique children it really is much more helpful to
lay out a specific interaction than to attempt to apply broad
standards to "some kids in some situations".
unschooling. Its not what radical unschoolers are trying to express.
What this describes is parents manipulating children and that's a
different matter.
When I was first trying to wrap my head around unschooling I thought
the above statement was what unschoolers were talking about, too. I
thought that bc I was still looking through a lens of limits and
nos. When I stepped away from that lens, the image I had of
unschooling shifted significantly.
I have a suggestion for Paul, in particular, but also anyone else
with younger children. There's a board that focuses specifically on
the challenges of unschooling with younger kids that I found very
helpful in wrapping my mind around some of these weirdo ideas:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled
I'm not trying to run anyone off (and I'm on that board, too, so
Beware ;)) but its very true that "communication" and "trust" look
different with, say, a 3yo than a 10yo. How to work toward more open
communication and increased trust with younger children is the focus
of AU.
I also recommend anyone who is struggling trying to picture what
unschooling "looks like" on a daily basis check out some unschooling
blogs. Here's a link to a page with a bunch of blog addresses:
http://organiclearning.org/resources.html
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
<pdfernhout@...> wrote:
>> But, I would suggest for some kids, in some situationsPersonally, I think a big part of the confusion that's arrising in
this discussion comes from a lack of specific examples. I think
Joyce brought that up, too, and its a fairly important point.
*Because* radical unschooling is about individual parents'
relationships with unique children it really is much more helpful to
lay out a specific interaction than to attempt to apply broad
standards to "some kids in some situations".
> For some people, living in a world of implicit limits may even seemknow as a
> worse than living in a world of explicit limits -- since you never
> kid when you will get a "discussion" or "frown" (punishments fromsome kids'
> point of view?) for breaking an implicit rule or passing aninvisible fence
> you never knew was there.This is a big part of what I mean by "confusion". This isn't
unschooling. Its not what radical unschoolers are trying to express.
What this describes is parents manipulating children and that's a
different matter.
When I was first trying to wrap my head around unschooling I thought
the above statement was what unschoolers were talking about, too. I
thought that bc I was still looking through a lens of limits and
nos. When I stepped away from that lens, the image I had of
unschooling shifted significantly.
I have a suggestion for Paul, in particular, but also anyone else
with younger children. There's a board that focuses specifically on
the challenges of unschooling with younger kids that I found very
helpful in wrapping my mind around some of these weirdo ideas:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled
I'm not trying to run anyone off (and I'm on that board, too, so
Beware ;)) but its very true that "communication" and "trust" look
different with, say, a 3yo than a 10yo. How to work toward more open
communication and increased trust with younger children is the focus
of AU.
I also recommend anyone who is struggling trying to picture what
unschooling "looks like" on a daily basis check out some unschooling
blogs. Here's a link to a page with a bunch of blog addresses:
http://organiclearning.org/resources.html
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
Manisha Kher
--- In [email protected], "Shannon Barniskis"
<hawthorn@...> wrote:
You know what, no one is going to come to your house to see what you
do. There isn't any requirement that says you must not limit TV if
you want to unschool. However, I do not want to see that discussed
as a recommendation here. There are a million other places that talk
about limiting TV watching, or sugar or what have you. I get that
advice from parenting books and pediatricians. I come here to hear
about families that do not have restrictions and still live fairly
balanced lives.
gets done with watching as much TV as one wants. This is especially
true if TV is not restricted and kids are free to go back to it.
We have no restrictions on TV. Have never had them. That does not
mean that we expose our children to anything and everything. We
don't watch stuff that I think will be disturbing in their presence.
There are days when my daughter watches endless hours of TV and then
there are days when she watches hardly any. My son wathces very
little TV. One side-effect of homeschooling is that school+homework
is not stealing 6-8 hours of each day. So there's plenty of time to
watch TV and play outdoors and do arts/crafts etc.
Why? I'm not being snarky - this is a genuine question. Why do you
need to limit dancing, reading or climbing trees?
Manisha
<hawthorn@...> wrote:
> That's also why I (prepare yourself for RU heresy here) limit theamount of time my kids watch TV and playcomputer games. *gasp*
You know what, no one is going to come to your house to see what you
do. There isn't any requirement that says you must not limit TV if
you want to unschool. However, I do not want to see that discussed
as a recommendation here. There are a million other places that talk
about limiting TV watching, or sugar or what have you. I get that
advice from parenting books and pediatricians. I come here to hear
about families that do not have restrictions and still live fairly
balanced lives.
> Perhaps your kids were born inherently balanced and wise, but mineIt's not a matter of being balanced or wise. Sometimes one simply
> will do nothing but play RuneScape all day if it's allowed, (and
> sometimes it is).
gets done with watching as much TV as one wants. This is especially
true if TV is not restricted and kids are free to go back to it.
We have no restrictions on TV. Have never had them. That does not
mean that we expose our children to anything and everything. We
don't watch stuff that I think will be disturbing in their presence.
There are days when my daughter watches endless hours of TV and then
there are days when she watches hardly any. My son wathces very
little TV. One side-effect of homeschooling is that school+homework
is not stealing 6-8 hours of each day. So there's plenty of time to
watch TV and play outdoors and do arts/crafts etc.
> I think RuneScape is a very valuable activity. So is dancing, andhanging out with your family...all of those things are limited here,
> cleaning your room, and reading a book, and climbing trees and
Why? I'm not being snarky - this is a genuine question. Why do you
need to limit dancing, reading or climbing trees?
Manisha
Deb
Just a quick comment on balance:
Don't know if anyone here knows the song "Junk Food Junkie" but it's
basically about a guy who eats organic brown rice and plain organic
yogurt and such during the day where folks are around (a very "Crunchy
Granola" type). But at night he sneaks into his hidden closet and
pulls out the Twinkies and RC Cola. DH and I were talking about this
in the car (since it was on the CD we were listening to) and DS chimed
in and said it sounded like a balanced diet - he ate "healthy" foods
during the day and "not as healthy" foods at night so it was "even".
It was interesting to see his never-externally-regulated take on it.
Had a great discussion following that about "healthy", "unhealthy",
and balance and why did he only eat the Twinkies at night when no one
could see him.
--Deb
Don't know if anyone here knows the song "Junk Food Junkie" but it's
basically about a guy who eats organic brown rice and plain organic
yogurt and such during the day where folks are around (a very "Crunchy
Granola" type). But at night he sneaks into his hidden closet and
pulls out the Twinkies and RC Cola. DH and I were talking about this
in the car (since it was on the CD we were listening to) and DS chimed
in and said it sounded like a balanced diet - he ate "healthy" foods
during the day and "not as healthy" foods at night so it was "even".
It was interesting to see his never-externally-regulated take on it.
Had a great discussion following that about "healthy", "unhealthy",
and balance and why did he only eat the Twinkies at night when no one
could see him.
--Deb
j50yab
Maybe a little tweak of the intro page *would* help the board meet
everyone's expectations a little better? I don't know, I'm sure there
will have been some very good lines on the board before that could be
used, "prepare to have your parenting ideas turned upside down" is a
bit lame (you can tell I'm not in marketing can't you!!) but that type
of wording might help new members have more realistic expectations of
what the board's about. Challenged is a good word.
Sarah
everyone's expectations a little better? I don't know, I'm sure there
will have been some very good lines on the board before that could be
used, "prepare to have your parenting ideas turned upside down" is a
bit lame (you can tell I'm not in marketing can't you!!) but that type
of wording might help new members have more realistic expectations of
what the board's about. Challenged is a good word.
Sarah
Ren Allen
~~> Perhaps your kids were born inherently balanced and wise, but mine
I trust that my children's "balance" is very different from my own. I
also prefer to be present with them, learning about the game from
their point of view, hearing their excitement, bringing them
snacks...in short being part of their world rather than limiting
something they find interesting.
Limits is the easy way out in my opinion.
One of our closest friends is sending her teen up here to stay with us
for a while. They are like family to us and our children miss each
other terribly. The challenge? B is not wanting to fly alone, even
though his Mom can send him up!
When we were writing today she said something about "I'm going to go
mainstream on him and tell him to get his butt on that
plane!"...completely joking of course BUT it seems so much easier to us!
Having people just do what I say sounds lovely at times...no matter
their age.:) It doesn't respect their preferences or build healthy
relationships though. In the case of B flying up here, we are looking
at meeting in another city to get him, his Mom driving him up, renting
a vehicle etc...
In short, we are providing a framework of options. The child is as
much a part of the decision making process as the parents. It's a lot
more EFFORT this way...YES. It could be a big old NO. It's not. It's
an open-ended dialogue that takes everyone's needs into account. We
haven't figured out how to make it work yet. But I guarantee there
will be a solution eventually and the kids will be together.
Win, win, win, win. That's the goal. When it breaks down in the moment
and IS a "no", it's done with respect to the individual and sympathy
for their needs and feelings. That's a big difference to a
traditional, top-down authority approach.
I love having these discussions because it's a wonderful reminder for
ME to stay in the moment with my child when problem solving. It's a
great tool for opening me up to more "yes". Just discussing it can
help us see new options we didn't see before.
The goal isn't a constant stream of "yes" that leaves anyone feeling
stressed and tired. The goal is mutual agreement and/or empowerment
for each family member to make their own choices.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
> will do nothing but play RuneScape all day if it's allowed, (andMaybe that IS balance for them.
> sometimes it is).~~
I trust that my children's "balance" is very different from my own. I
also prefer to be present with them, learning about the game from
their point of view, hearing their excitement, bringing them
snacks...in short being part of their world rather than limiting
something they find interesting.
Limits is the easy way out in my opinion.
One of our closest friends is sending her teen up here to stay with us
for a while. They are like family to us and our children miss each
other terribly. The challenge? B is not wanting to fly alone, even
though his Mom can send him up!
When we were writing today she said something about "I'm going to go
mainstream on him and tell him to get his butt on that
plane!"...completely joking of course BUT it seems so much easier to us!
Having people just do what I say sounds lovely at times...no matter
their age.:) It doesn't respect their preferences or build healthy
relationships though. In the case of B flying up here, we are looking
at meeting in another city to get him, his Mom driving him up, renting
a vehicle etc...
In short, we are providing a framework of options. The child is as
much a part of the decision making process as the parents. It's a lot
more EFFORT this way...YES. It could be a big old NO. It's not. It's
an open-ended dialogue that takes everyone's needs into account. We
haven't figured out how to make it work yet. But I guarantee there
will be a solution eventually and the kids will be together.
Win, win, win, win. That's the goal. When it breaks down in the moment
and IS a "no", it's done with respect to the individual and sympathy
for their needs and feelings. That's a big difference to a
traditional, top-down authority approach.
I love having these discussions because it's a wonderful reminder for
ME to stay in the moment with my child when problem solving. It's a
great tool for opening me up to more "yes". Just discussing it can
help us see new options we didn't see before.
The goal isn't a constant stream of "yes" that leaves anyone feeling
stressed and tired. The goal is mutual agreement and/or empowerment
for each family member to make their own choices.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com