Sylvia Toyama

It is a corporate device for the delivery of advertising and we the viewers are the product that the advertisers are buying with their money.

****
We the viewers are simply the product the advertisers are HOPING to buy. We can't be sold without our consent, whether informed or passive. But just placing the ad does not guarantee the advertisers that they OWN us.

****

Now, I know that everybody thinks they are so media savvy that they can see right through the ads, but they affect us all, children too (if not particularly) in ways we don't understand. The advertisers are not stupid.... The plots revolve around product placement and merchandising. My husband works in the business and it is startling the degree to which this is true, particularly in children's programming.

*****
And when our kids see these commercials, they ask all kinds of questions I couldn't think to anticipate. Those questions present learning moments no one could plan into a curriculum.

Our kids will be bombarded with commercials as adults - and I won't be there to explain the nuances, stereotypes and methods of the pitch. If one buys the argument that commercials on TV are a potential danger to kids, then I'd much rather we encounter that danger while they're still living at home, still looking to me for my insights. I don't want that to be an issue they grapple with after they've left home, or shut me out because I showed my lack of trust in their intelligence by limiting their viewing choices.

****
We do our kids a disservice if we give them free access to television with little information about it's true nature. In this way, I think tv is similar to school. It has it's own agenda, and it is not set up for the benefit the people who use it.

****
I haven't seen anyone here advocating that kids be given access to TV with little info about the true nature of advertising. We've all talked about how TV viewing kicks off conversation about a million different things -- from truth in advertising, to stereotypes (in both shows & ads), to historical content as it really happened vs how it's presented in schools and popular perceptions, to morals and why people make the choices they make, and so much more than I can think of right now.

Sylvia

http://www.ourhapahome.blogspot.com
http://www.myeverydaysacred.blogspot.com




---------------------------------
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Emilie

My point about tv is that it's ALL advertising -even the programmes.
We are the product that is being bought whether we buy a something or
not. It is like buying billboard space in our homes. They are buying
access to us. It is only because advertisers. product placers, and
corporations pay for tv that it even exists. You don't have to buy
their stuff to be the product, all you have to do is watch. Again I
AM NOT ADVOCATING RESTRICTING ACCESS, just pointing out that kids
need to know that EVERYTHING on tv is actually advertising and
propaganda put out by corporations who are trying to manipulate us.
Kids know this about commercials, but they often don't know it about
the actual programmes they watch. In the same way that schools
pretend to educate, tv pretends to educate. I learned a lot in
school, despite the system. A lot can be learned from tv too, if you
realize that every programme, be it history, nature, news, drama etc.
is trying to manipulate the way you think to some corporate
advantage. When kids understand this, they can find out the real
truth, through real research.
I felt pretty betrayed when I discovered that all the nature shows I
watched when I was a kid were staged and the explanations given for
animal behavior were all grossly incorrect, and often politically
motivated. 20 years later nature shows are still staged and
inaccurate. I am not saying that we should restrict our kids access
to tv. But we shouldn't be singing it's praises to them and claiming
that it is a way to access some great wealth of knowledge either. A
more neutral stance would serve them better. I fully support the
rights of kids to choose when and what to watch. But, the pro -tv
stuff I have been reading here lately is pretty over the top. It is
not some unschooling educational panacea, it is how corporations
access people.

Emilie

At 09:02 PM 29/07/2007, you wrote:

>It is a corporate device for the delivery of advertising and we the
>viewers are the product that the advertisers are buying with their money.
>
>****
>We the viewers are simply the product the advertisers are HOPING to
>buy. We can't be sold without our consent, whether informed or
>passive. But just placing the ad does not guarantee the advertisers
>that they OWN us.
>
>****
>
>Now, I know that everybody thinks they are so media savvy that they
>can see right through the ads, but they affect us all, children too
>(if not particularly) in ways we don't understand. The advertisers
>are not stupid.... The plots revolve around product placement and
>merchandising. My husband works in the business and it is startling
>the degree to which this is true, particularly in children's programming.
>
>*****
>And when our kids see these commercials, they ask all kinds of
>questions I couldn't think to anticipate. Those questions present
>learning moments no one could plan into a curriculum.
>
>Our kids will be bombarded with commercials as adults - and I won't
>be there to explain the nuances, stereotypes and methods of the
>pitch. If one buys the argument that commercials on TV are a
>potential danger to kids, then I'd much rather we encounter that
>danger while they're still living at home, still looking to me for
>my insights. I don't want that to be an issue they grapple with
>after they've left home, or shut me out because I showed my lack of
>trust in their intelligence by limiting their viewing choices.
>
>****
>We do our kids a disservice if we give them free access to
>television with little information about it's true nature. In this
>way, I think tv is similar to school. It has it's own agenda, and it
>is not set up for the benefit the people who use it.
>
>****
>I haven't seen anyone here advocating that kids be given access to
>TV with little info about the true nature of advertising. We've all
>talked about how TV viewing kicks off conversation about a million
>different things -- from truth in advertising, to stereotypes (in
>both shows & ads), to historical content as it really happened vs
>how it's presented in schools and popular perceptions, to morals and
>why people make the choices they make, and so much more than I can
>think of right now.
>
>Sylvia
>
><http://www.ourhapahome.blogspot.com>http://www.ourhapahome.blogspot.com
>http://www.myeverydaysacred.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.
>
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>
>



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Fetteroll

On Jul 29, 2007, at 10:29 PM, Emilie wrote:
> Again I
> AM NOT ADVOCATING RESTRICTING ACCESS, just pointing out that kids
> need to know that EVERYTHING on tv is actually advertising and
> propaganda

They don't need to know this any more than they need to know that 2+2=4.

Like 2+2=4 we can point it out, but it helps learning hugely to
*trust* that kids are intelligent enough to put the pieces together
and will form an understanding.

You're treating this like brain surgery. It isn't. It really doesn't
take that much brain power to realize that a real brand name
mentioned in a TV show is an ad and not a public endorsement of the
superiority of that product.

My daughter even pointed out during a Gilmore Girls episode that the
expert car guy wouldn't be showing Lorelei Fords.

> put out by corporations who are trying to manipulate us.

And what's the return rate for all their dollars spent?

People see all the money spent on advertising and think that much
money must be powerful. But in truth the spend so much because it
takes that much just to make any kind of impact.

We had this discussion recently and someone said 2-3% are influenced
to try something.

And, really, look at what you're saying. *So what* if they're trying
to manipulate us? You're treating it like it is working like a charm
and we turn into creatures who blindly buy what we're told to buy.

Is that true? I honestly don't know anyone like that. Advertising can
*intrigue* me about a product but it can't convince me that it's
superior once I've tried it. The performance of the product does
that. It can't make me turn my brain off and buy what I'm told
without regard to quality.

Here's a good example. I probably wouldn't have tried Fructis shampoo
without the ads and that awesome song. (Though the real, full version
of the song is pretty nasty ;-) I have bought more because while it
isn't better than anything else, it does work -- and it reminds me of
the song when I see the bottle ;-) What's wrong with that? Where's
the danger? If the product didn't work, I wouldn't buy it again. The
advertising got me to *try* something I wouldn't have. The product
itself (and the song) encourage me to keep buying it. I haven't been
duped into believing something that's inferior is actually superior.
I'm not unaware of why I'm buying it.

Give people more credit than that! I'm even a product of school and
conventional parents who never gave me the advertising talk ;-). Even
so I figured out advertising.

If you step back objectively, and look at your own behavior, you are
acting as you fear we are. You're reading the propaganda of the anti-
advertising people and believing it over what your own eyes see in
your friends and neighbors. Do you see real people you actually know
-- not the statistics in the propaganda -- who behave as you fear
people will? I don't even see *kids* do that. Parents fear kids have
been influenced because they ask for what they've seen. But that's
what adults do too. But kids aren't stupid. If something doesn't work
as advertised, they don't keep buying the product. They don't keep on
trusting that what they see on TV is truth.

Please give kids more credit for intelligence than that. Unschooling
can't flourish if you're so distrusting of children's intelligence.

And by trust don't assume it means stepping back and assuming kids
will figure out the world on their own! We need to be there for them.
But truly all it takes is picking out the techniques advertisers use
in a fun way for kids to catch on. It's a very simple concept.

(What *does* though happen with TV is that parents start saying no to
what kids ask for because they fear the kids have been influenced and
want to nip that in the bud. But what's truly going on is that kids
realize that if they're only going to get 1 out of every 10 things
they ask for, then they need to ask a lot more to get what they want.
That's the power of no. It makes advertising feel a lot more
effective than it is! If we just buy what the kids are asking for and
trust their intelligence (and be there with them for support as they
explore) they will figure out advertising *much* quicker than kids of
parents who say no.)

> But we shouldn't be singing it's praises to them and claiming
> that it is a way to access some great wealth of knowledge either

Because you fear TV advertising so much, you are reading
unconditional praise because we aren't including your fears with
every mention of TV.

We trust kids are intelligent. We are with our kids, not filling them
with fears, but exploring how the world works.

It isn't as difficult to understand as you are painting it to be. It
takes a moment to point out an advertising technique and have fun
exploring that with kids.

Joyce

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Meredith

--- In [email protected], Emilie <erugard@...> wrote:
>> not some unschooling educational panacea

I think you're missing the point that unschooling isn't
about "education". I'm not using tv as an "educational tool" any
more than I am cooking. I don't say to my kids "lets turn the tv on
and learn something" <gag>.

>A lot can be learned from tv too, if you
> realize that every programme, be it history, nature, news, drama
etc.
> is trying to manipulate the way you think to some corporate
> advantage. When kids understand this, they can find out the real
> truth, through real research.

Try coming at this from a different direction... when kids aren't
expected to swallow adult bs hook-line-and-sinker on a daily basis,
they tend not to blindly accept things at face-value. They form
their own theories and test them in the real world. Why should my
kids believe *anything* they see or hear or read? They have the
opportunity to test the trustworthiness of *my* words, after all,
and the opportunity to disagree with me, to offer their own
attitudes and ideas and have me consider them seriously. They know
that their own words and thoughts are *as* valuble as adult words
and thoughts. That makes a big difference in the way they approach
*any* kind of information.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

Kelli Traaseth

****So any helpful advice? Is my unschooling 6 year old sub-par because
she hasn't figured this stuff out on her own compared to your
unschooling 6 year olds? (just kidding, just so you know) What am I
doing wrong? Or what aren't I doing wrong?****

I think it's all in how we react to it. I used to think my daughter wanted everything she was excited about and I would get this defensive feeling, like.."she wants to buy that too??" But one time she told me off, saying, "just because I'm showing you this or talking about it doesn't mean I have to have it or buy it!" <g> She just gets excited seeing new cool things. I'm the same way.

So maybe you could just share her excitement and joy for things without all your thoughts about what the TV people are doing. You say you aren't fearful of it all but what ever feelings you are having, I'm sure they're still coming across to your daughter. I know we can't and don't want to mask all of our emotions, but to see why she's interested in those certain things might bring you closer to where she's at. It might bring you out of your position and thinking about TV and into sharing her joy.

***Of course we gently discuss commercials and obvious
advertising, usually by answering her questions rather than
initiating it ourselves. That part is easy. But I do struggle with
how to talk to her about how consumerism in a larger sense is being
relentlessly promoted on tv. ****

I think the easy part that you are referring to is what you should continue doing. And then let her think about it. She might not agree with you on your opinion. Even if the TV industry is doing what you say, (I don't know many people in that industry) I think kids are pretty savvy and your daughter will figure it out too. Just be available to her and answer her questions. (like you said ) Maybe it will even take a purchase or two to figure it out. ;) And that's ok too, my girls soo wanted " The Original Chocolate Factory" The ads made this little sauce pan and accessories look so awesome. So we got it. They were so excited when they received it in the mail and we had some fun with it. It probably wasn't as great as they thought it was going to be but we still had some fun. They have made some other decisions based on that and other purchases. It's all been OK. I've helped pay and they've paid, both options and they are getting more savvy about it all the
time. They are 10 and 12 now.

For us, just looking at TV as another resource seems to go pretty well. The selling and promoting is going to be everywhere. There are different radio shows that I wouldn't want to listen to also that are trying to sell certain ideas. There are books that are also trying do the same thing. But we can choose not to read them or turn off the TV or radio. We can then in turn go back and listen to or watch something that we feel is valuable. That way it doesn't have to have this big power over us.

It's like a big smorgasbord of choices! That's why I love this RU life. :)








Kelli~


http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." ~Anais Nin




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Kelli Traaseth

Maybe words from Scott Noelle can address these concerns. He puts things so well. I'm sure a lot of people here get his e-mails but this one really addressed what I was trying to say as far as TV discomfort. I think it can be applied to any of our own discomforts though. Video game playing and TV watching tend to come to mind, I know I used to be there with those things. :)


THE DAILY GROOVE ~ by Scott Noelle
www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove

:: The Canary In the Coal Mine ::

Long ago, miners avoided death by bringing
canaries
into the coal mines. The sensitive songbirds
would
react to small amounts of toxic gases, thereby
alerting the miners to the invisible danger.

In a way, our children provide a similar service.
We've been so conditioned to tolerate stress that
we
often fail to seek relief from it, but our
sensitive
children have no such tolerance. They often feel
*our* stress before *we* do!

So when your child seems particularly irritable
and
reactive, it's a good idea to ask yourself
whether
s/he might be reflecting *your* stress. Check in
with your body and emotions, and let yourself
*feel*
what's there.

Seek the fresh air of soothing, stress-free
thoughts, and then bless your child for keeping
you
in touch with your Inner Guidance.

http://dailygroove.net/canary

**********************************

So maybe it's not the TV or the game or the "what-ever"
that's causing the stress?

Maybe it's our own stress over these things?






Kelli~


http://ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com/

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." ~Anais Nin




---------------------------------
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Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

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