[email protected]

In a message dated 7/28/2007 7:22:45 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
Maura@... writes:

one of the things that happen
frequently around here that leave me wondering how a cookie cutter
unschooling life
could ever work for us.





I think there is no such thing as a "cookie cutter unschooling life" first
off. we all are so different - its perhaps one of the base levels of
unschooling. each household will be different, doing different things. Science looks
one way here, different at someone else's house, same with math, english,
dance, music...the thread that ties us together is the joy of learning, with the
child directing the interests. We provide things, options and items and time
and patience. We listen to the children, we respect the kids' needs and
interests and are supporting them. We help them decide, we talk, we value their
pov's and their ideas. We support that love of learning we ALL had/have...and in
the process, we also often get that love and easy joy of learning back into
our own lives that way.

We protect our kids from danger by talking with them about the danger. We
help them to make choices by discussion. Nothing should simply be "just because"
but because there is an understanding. I DO have some limits - say, I won't
buy Minute Maid Juice Boxes at Target. It has High Fructose Corn Syrup in it.
But I WILL buy the lemonade juice boxes from Trader Joe's because they
don't. Julian is 4 and he knows this. I'd rather him not have lemonade vs juice
due to added sugars, but hey - this is a compromise. It helps him learn about
nutrition, patience, supports his desire for his lemonade and supports my
desire to not have him swallow that stuff ;) He gets it because we talk about it,
talk about why and make arrangements for his needs to be met.

As for running into the street...some kids are more compulsive than others
and may be so excited about the prospect of what is on the other side of the
road, that they just aren't ready to self contain. That's ok. Because if one
knows their child, we can use prevention instead of fear. We can come to the
street area knowing that this is something that may happen. We then deal with
that accordingly. For some kids, that may mean not being in that kind of
situation for a bit, for some that may mean a verbal reminder, for some it might
mean a simple discussion of how people in cars can't easily see smaller people
and we have to look out for ourselves.

The point with all of this, is not to give examples of each situation, but
to say that we each tailor our parenting to our children's needs. We must know
our children, and unschooling I feel, provides the most excellent way to
really KNOW them. We play with them, work with them, cook with them, love and
live with them. By knowing them well, we can care for them WITH them. We become
partners - Child-Parent partners...and since we are all so different...there
are no cookie cutter unschoolers :)

OK, so I took the long route saying that ;) But I hope that helps a bit. We
are so lucky, I feel, to have this time wit our kids. It takes some
responsibility, and some adjustment. But oh, the pay-off...it's wonderful.

OK, back to more reading. I don't often reply like that, I'm the novel
writer about my life and am always hoping for support and learning, lol, so the
rest I'll leave to those that do that so darned well.

Karen



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[email protected]

In a message dated 7/29/2007 5:53:38 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:

Getting another persons "ok" on being part of something is simply a
way to respect personal boundaries. If the person hasn't agreed, then
they can't be shot at.


Yup, I agree with Ren. This is one of those times that yes, we DO say "no"
but we are then in a situation in which we MUST offer different alternatives.
All needs met that way...that was what I was leading to in my novella of
earlier ;) That teaches respect, by giving to it to all concerned...

K.



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mauratracy

Thank you for your reply Karen.

--- In [email protected], Kidgie@... wrote:
>
> >
> I think there is no such thing as a "cookie cutter unschooling life"

>the thread that ties us together is the joy of learning, with the
> child directing the interests. We provide things, options and items and time
> and patience. We listen to the children, we respect the kids' needs and
> interests and are supporting them. We help them decide, we talk, we value their
> pov's and their ideas. We support that love of learning we ALL had/have...and in
> the process, we also often get that love and easy joy of learning back into
> our own lives that way.
>
> We protect our kids from danger by talking with them about the danger. We
> help them to make choices by discussion. Nothing should simply be "just because"
> but because there is an understanding.

All of this above, Karen, and others, is what I mean when I say "the cookie cutter life."

I DO have some limits - say, I won't
> buy Minute Maid Juice Boxes at Target. It has High Fructose Corn Syrup in it.

THANK YOU Karen for admitting to a no!!!!! Seriously, it actually helps me see better how
everyone can have their needs met, including our needs for.....nutrition, health, safety,
etc..

> But I WILL buy the lemonade juice boxes from Trader Joe's because they
> don't. Julian is 4 and he knows this. I'd rather him not have lemonade vs juice
> due to added sugars, but hey - this is a compromise. It helps him learn about
> nutrition, patience, supports his desire for his lemonade and supports my
> desire to not have him swallow that stuff ;) He gets it because we talk about it,
> talk about why and make arrangements for his needs to be met.

I see what you're saying. It sounds like there was a "no" there, but you found another way
to meet the need. I get that.
>
> As for running into the street...some kids are more compulsive than others
> and may be so excited about the prospect of what is on the other side of the
> road, that they just aren't ready to self contain. That's ok. Because if one
> knows their child, we can use prevention instead of fear. We can come to the
> street area knowing that this is something that may happen. We then deal with
> that accordingly. For some kids, that may mean not being in that kind of
> situation for a bit, for some that may mean a verbal reminder, for some it might
> mean a simple discussion of how people in cars can't easily see smaller people
> and we have to look out for ourselves.

Yes. And like you said, for some that may mean helping them understand that cars can't
easily see smaller people, etc.. But thank you for acknowledging that "(f)or some kids, that
may mean not being in that kind of situation for a bit." There's another "no." I see
though, that if we need to, in the process of meeting their needs, we can say (if only in our
heads) "No." Then go on to find another way to meet the need they are experiencing.

> The point with all of this, is not to give examples of each situation, but
> to say that we each tailor our parenting to our children's needs. We must know
> our children, and unschooling I feel, provides the most excellent way to
> really KNOW them. We play with them, work with them, cook with them, love and
> live with them. By knowing them well, we can care for them WITH them. We become
> partners - Child-Parent partners...

I agree with all of this, and already parent this way....not to my best ability yet, but
philosophically I do not struggle with this. This, the way you put it, doesn't sound as
extreme as I otherwise see it. (CAn't think of a better word than extreme. Please no one
pick at that. It's almost 2 in the morning....I'm doing my best.)

> OK, so I took the long route saying that ;) But I hope that helps a bit. We
> are so lucky, I feel, to have this time wit our kids. It takes some
> responsibility, and some adjustment. But oh, the pay-off...it's wonderful.

You do help. Thank you. I agree that it is (well, most of the time) wonderful.
>
> OK, back to more reading. I don't often reply like that, I'm the novel
> writer about my life and am always hoping for support and learning, lol, so the
> rest I'll leave to those that do that so darned well.

You did well, in my opinion. I think I can hear the softer viewpoint. I think some people
start with the extreme to make the point, and it's actually harder that way for me. Better
to find common ground first, then you don't see so far apart from one another, rather than
polarizing right from the get go.

Thanks Karen,
Maura

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/29/2007 11:37:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
Maura@... writes:

Yes, but my son repeatedly, all day long, does not repsect others' personal
boudaries. It is
a real problem with him, and for his little brother who gets hurt (not
injured, mind you) by
him every day of his life. (This, by the way is a HUGE issue for me. It
kills me that I can't
make my one son be kinder and gentler to my other son. It kills me that my
little son has
to live everyday having his body disrespected. It kills me that he hates
his big brother. It
kills me that my big son has a little brother who hates him when he should
have a little
brother who adroes him and looks up to him. Doesn't anybody out there have
a child like
this??!!)


I just wanted to comment to you that I really hear your pain and your
confusion. I can tell it's really bothering you and you are trying SO hard to
learn, help, do what's right, AND take care of a family and yourself. That's a
LOT, and I know that too, from my issues I've been having. It's not just the
same, but I can SO relate to the feelings you are having (don't know if you saw
my novel long post about my teens and my issues with my eldest - hard
situation, hoping for something to help me cope, you know? Advice, something...it's a
toughie.)

I also wanted to mention that not too long ago, right as I joined, there
were a few people that had joined that were very argumentative and were
basically calling the parents here "unparents" as if they did not parent their
children, and let them run wild. I think it put some of us on the defensive, so
when a post comes through that sounds as if unschooling is being challenged, yet
again, the patience level is harder to maintain. You might be hearing some
stress and defensiveness based upon that - not that I presume to speak for the
people that have replied, it's just an observation I have noticed. I think
tone is often lost in emails, and when tensions are running high and
frustration is too, we may well misread someone's intentions - wether it's a reply or a
question to the group.

I want to say too, that you appear to really be trying to find creative
solutions. You're asking, you are thinking, feeling and stumbling around they way
most of us humans do at times ;) I sure am doing a lot of stumbling myself
these days! I have the virtually bruised toes from the virtual stubbing I've
been doing, lol...

The answers will come with you and your son, in time. As we all continue to
stay open with our kids and our feelings, the answers come. Parenting from the
heart is the goal we all have here, and that will, of course, look a bit
different from home to home any times. But the connection - the heart and the
children - are the basics we all do have.

I wish you luck! It'll be ok. Keep listening to your very heart of hearts.

Karen



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[email protected]

In a message dated 7/30/2007 2:36:52 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
Maura@... writes:

You did well, in my opinion. I think I can hear the softer viewpoint. I
think some people
start with the extreme to make the point, and it's actually harder that way
for me. Better
to find common ground first, then you don't see so far apart from one
another, rather than
polarizing right from the get go.

Thanks Karen,
Maura


Well, thank you! :)

Maybe we should all discuss some of the times we DO say "no." I say it more
than just the Minute Maid juice boxes, lol. I'm earthy and honest with my
kids. The relationship we have is good for that, their personalities are good for
that. Julian, is my most sensitive and gentle child. I can't tease him or be
as earthy with him - so I'm not. He would get his feelings hurt. So I am
adjusting my mothering to each child...and with 5 of them, sometimes I feel as
if I have multiple personalities via mothering, lol! It's not an area I
question about myself however, since the kids are fairly comfy, as am I, kwim?

I already replied to another bit of your emails, so I'll stop for now - just
wanted to let you know that about me.

Take care!
Karen



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debbie

I have never posted here before. The references to Tourette's caught
my attention. My son has Tourette's. Impulse control is most
definately an issue for him. He truly struggles with it. He has gone
through many tics over the past few years. Some of them have been
hurtful to those around him and some have been hurtful to himself.
We do talk about alternatives to some of the tics. And have managed
to curtail some of them.
Some of them however we just have to hope will pass eventually.
Fortuanately my son has not developed the swearing form (which is
rare by the way) of Tourette's. He has peeped, poked, throat cleared,
tongue thrusted, blinked, chewed, slapped (himself and others). He
has also attacked others because of the echoeing inside his head.
Large groups of people are overwhelming for him. He has a form of
echolalia. Only he doesn't repeat out loud what is said.. Instead he
hears everything that is said to him over and over and over again.
That gets confusing when there are lots of kids yelling (playing) at
the same time. There are times that even the sound of someone
writing in the other room is unbareable to him.
There are many adjustments that have been made in our lives to
accomodate his special needs. His older sister understands those
accomodations. Just as I understood the accomodations that needed to
be made for my 2 MR older brothers when we were children.
There are times on lists such as these when I feel like there is
truly a lack of understanding for parents of children with special
needs. Parenting a child with special needs is a whole different
world than parenting a "normal" child. With my daughter I can reason
an compromise. With my son things need to be straight forward. The
less words the better. A simple yes or no works well for him in most
situations. Going through all of the reasons for the yes or no has
led to much confusion for him.
I am not certain if I will ever embrace all of the unschooling
philosophy as I have seen it presented time and time again. It seems
that if one strays from the philosophy then there is harsh judgement
and snarky comments. Rather than embracing the person for even asking
a valid question. Seems a bit narrow to me. I much prefer to attempt
to understand where another person is coming from than be so quick to
rush a judgement on them as a parent.
There is more than one right way. The key is to find what works for
your family.

Back to lurking for me :)

Debbie






--- In [email protected], "mauratracy" <Maura@...>
wrote:
>
> Thank you for your reply Karen.
>
> --- In [email protected], Kidgie@ wrote:
> >
> > >
> > I think there is no such thing as a "cookie cutter unschooling
life"
>
> >the thread that ties us together is the joy of learning, with the
> > child directing the interests. We provide things, options and
items and time
> > and patience. We listen to the children, we respect the kids'
needs and
> > interests and are supporting them. We help them decide, we talk,
we value their
> > pov's and their ideas. We support that love of learning we ALL
had/have...and in
> > the process, we also often get that love and easy joy of
learning back into
> > our own lives that way.
> >
> > We protect our kids from danger by talking with them about the
danger. We
> > help them to make choices by discussion. Nothing should simply
be "just because"
> > but because there is an understanding.
>
> All of this above, Karen, and others, is what I mean when I
say "the cookie cutter life."
>
> I DO have some limits - say, I won't
> > buy Minute Maid Juice Boxes at Target. It has High Fructose Corn
Syrup in it.
>
> THANK YOU Karen for admitting to a no!!!!! Seriously, it actually
helps me see better how
> everyone can have their needs met, including our needs
for.....nutrition, health, safety,
> etc..
>
> > But I WILL buy the lemonade juice boxes from Trader Joe's
because they
> > don't. Julian is 4 and he knows this. I'd rather him not have
lemonade vs juice
> > due to added sugars, but hey - this is a compromise. It helps
him learn about
> > nutrition, patience, supports his desire for his lemonade and
supports my
> > desire to not have him swallow that stuff ;) He gets it because
we talk about it,
> > talk about why and make arrangements for his needs to be met.
>
> I see what you're saying. It sounds like there was a "no" there,
but you found another way
> to meet the need. I get that.
> >
> > As for running into the street...some kids are more compulsive
than others
> > and may be so excited about the prospect of what is on the other
side of the
> > road, that they just aren't ready to self contain. That's ok.
Because if one
> > knows their child, we can use prevention instead of fear. We can
come to the
> > street area knowing that this is something that may happen. We
then deal with
> > that accordingly. For some kids, that may mean not being in that
kind of
> > situation for a bit, for some that may mean a verbal reminder,
for some it might
> > mean a simple discussion of how people in cars can't easily see
smaller people
> > and we have to look out for ourselves.
>
> Yes. And like you said, for some that may mean helping them
understand that cars can't
> easily see smaller people, etc.. But thank you for acknowledging
that "(f)or some kids, that
> may mean not being in that kind of situation for a bit." There's
another "no." I see
> though, that if we need to, in the process of meeting their needs,
we can say (if only in our
> heads) "No." Then go on to find another way to meet the need they
are experiencing.
>
> > The point with all of this, is not to give examples of each
situation, but
> > to say that we each tailor our parenting to our children's needs.
We must know
> > our children, and unschooling I feel, provides the most excellent
way to
> > really KNOW them. We play with them, work with them, cook with
them, love and
> > live with them. By knowing them well, we can care for them WITH
them. We become
> > partners - Child-Parent partners...
>
> I agree with all of this, and already parent this way....not to my
best ability yet, but
> philosophically I do not struggle with this. This, the way you put
it, doesn't sound as
> extreme as I otherwise see it. (CAn't think of a better word than
extreme. Please no one
> pick at that. It's almost 2 in the morning....I'm doing my best.)
>
> > OK, so I took the long route saying that ;) But I hope that helps
a bit. We
> > are so lucky, I feel, to have this time wit our kids. It takes
some
> > responsibility, and some adjustment. But oh, the pay-off...it's
wonderful.
>
> You do help. Thank you. I agree that it is (well, most of the
time) wonderful.
> >
> > OK, back to more reading. I don't often reply like that, I'm the
novel
> > writer about my life and am always hoping for support and
learning, lol, so the
> > rest I'll leave to those that do that so darned well.
>
> You did well, in my opinion. I think I can hear the softer
viewpoint. I think some people
> start with the extreme to make the point, and it's actually harder
that way for me. Better
> to find common ground first, then you don't see so far apart from
one another, rather than
> polarizing right from the get go.
>
> Thanks Karen,
> Maura
>