Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Harrassment was Teasing
[email protected]
This is not toughing up it is being a bully and abusive regardless
of if it occurs to kids or adults.
***********
It also is harassment. The Americans with Disability Act was formed in order to protect people from just this type a situation.
I disagree with the idea that getting the supervisor involved can be construed as "tattling". In my NSHO, this is something that I would address with the museum personnel staff. Just because the harrassers are under 18 doesn't make what they are doing any less illegal.
One in All,
All in One -
If only this is realized,
No more worry about your not being perfect!
~~ Seng - ts'an
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of if it occurs to kids or adults.
***********
It also is harassment. The Americans with Disability Act was formed in order to protect people from just this type a situation.
I disagree with the idea that getting the supervisor involved can be construed as "tattling". In my NSHO, this is something that I would address with the museum personnel staff. Just because the harrassers are under 18 doesn't make what they are doing any less illegal.
One in All,
All in One -
If only this is realized,
No more worry about your not being perfect!
~~ Seng - ts'an
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hbmccarty
Yes, I was being facetious in saying toughening up- I don't think it is
either.
We discussed how he'd like to deal with this today. These are not kids
that he is likely to run into again and we discussed the possibility
that having an ineffective adult getting involved might make it worse,
and he seemed willing to take that chance, as he felt it was wrong. He
is the youngest of the kids that work there, and is very surprised at
how the kids are acting in general- not taking the job seriously and
trying to do as little as possible. He was not interested in having me
get directly involved, as I thought. He applied for the job through the
Youth Employment Service- which is a local government agency- they
handed out a pamphlet about sexual harassment at the orientation, and
in the employee handbook it has a section titled Respect which asks kid
to call their YES representative if they feel they are being harassed.
The suggestion of writing a letter is a good one, and if he doesn't feel
comfortable approaching someone in person I will suggest that, or ask if
I could write one myself.
I am so impressed with his willingness to continue to enter into new
situations and meet people and ask questions despite the difficulty he
is having speaking- he is so confident- much more so than I was at that age.
Thanks so much for the perspectives on this.
Heather
MystikMomma@... wrote:
either.
We discussed how he'd like to deal with this today. These are not kids
that he is likely to run into again and we discussed the possibility
that having an ineffective adult getting involved might make it worse,
and he seemed willing to take that chance, as he felt it was wrong. He
is the youngest of the kids that work there, and is very surprised at
how the kids are acting in general- not taking the job seriously and
trying to do as little as possible. He was not interested in having me
get directly involved, as I thought. He applied for the job through the
Youth Employment Service- which is a local government agency- they
handed out a pamphlet about sexual harassment at the orientation, and
in the employee handbook it has a section titled Respect which asks kid
to call their YES representative if they feel they are being harassed.
The suggestion of writing a letter is a good one, and if he doesn't feel
comfortable approaching someone in person I will suggest that, or ask if
I could write one myself.
I am so impressed with his willingness to continue to enter into new
situations and meet people and ask questions despite the difficulty he
is having speaking- he is so confident- much more so than I was at that age.
Thanks so much for the perspectives on this.
Heather
MystikMomma@... wrote:
>
> This is not toughing up it is being a bully and abusive regardless
> of if it occurs to kids or adults.
>
> ***********
>
hbmccarty
Thought I would update on the situation with my son(age 14) being
harassed about his speech disfluency. He noticed that the kids had
pretty much stopped after a few days. After the six weeks of his job
were over, we happened to meet his supervisor- who told us how impressed
he was with our son's behavior- that he was courteous, responsible-
would complete work he was asked to do and then go on to do more while
most of the other kids in the program we not able to complete the work
and took any opportunity they could to not work. He said he had asked
our son if he would come back if another opportunity came up and our son
had said no. This seemed like the perfect time to bring up what had
happened- and this is very interesting- the supervisor said he had
noticed that our son was upset, and guessed the reason. Then he said
that he also had a stutter, and had never had speech therapy, and had
found his own way of controlling it- and proceeded to tell us how awful
school was for him and that he really empathized with our son. He had
taken aside the kids, who he said were also harassing some of the girls,
and talked to them about what was expected in the workplace in a general
way without mentioning any names or specific situations.
I told my son what the supervisor had said and now he even seems willing
to go back- knowing that none of the other kids he had difficulty with
would ever be there again. What started out to be a a very difficult
situation seems to have turned into a confidence building experience.
and I do enjoy the validation of unschooling, of course! The supervisor
said he had other homeschooled kids working for him in past years, but
that our son was really outstanding in his ability to do the job and
just be a decent person.
Heather
harassed about his speech disfluency. He noticed that the kids had
pretty much stopped after a few days. After the six weeks of his job
were over, we happened to meet his supervisor- who told us how impressed
he was with our son's behavior- that he was courteous, responsible-
would complete work he was asked to do and then go on to do more while
most of the other kids in the program we not able to complete the work
and took any opportunity they could to not work. He said he had asked
our son if he would come back if another opportunity came up and our son
had said no. This seemed like the perfect time to bring up what had
happened- and this is very interesting- the supervisor said he had
noticed that our son was upset, and guessed the reason. Then he said
that he also had a stutter, and had never had speech therapy, and had
found his own way of controlling it- and proceeded to tell us how awful
school was for him and that he really empathized with our son. He had
taken aside the kids, who he said were also harassing some of the girls,
and talked to them about what was expected in the workplace in a general
way without mentioning any names or specific situations.
I told my son what the supervisor had said and now he even seems willing
to go back- knowing that none of the other kids he had difficulty with
would ever be there again. What started out to be a a very difficult
situation seems to have turned into a confidence building experience.
and I do enjoy the validation of unschooling, of course! The supervisor
said he had other homeschooled kids working for him in past years, but
that our son was really outstanding in his ability to do the job and
just be a decent person.
Heather
castlecarver
It is so refreshing to hear that the problem was taken care of by the
supervisor. You must be very proud of your son for being such a good
worker.
Sandi
supervisor. You must be very proud of your son for being such a good
worker.
Sandi
[email protected]
Heather, on a day like today, I really needed to hear that. I am SO glad
your son found support and validation. I'm so glad there are good folk out
there. I hope he does go back- if HE wants to. Thanks SO much for the update. Hug
that great son of yours "for me" :)
Karen...who's been feeling rather disheartened today...
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
your son found support and validation. I'm so glad there are good folk out
there. I hope he does go back- if HE wants to. Thanks SO much for the update. Hug
that great son of yours "for me" :)
Karen...who's been feeling rather disheartened today...
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hbmccarty
Yes, but I also am sad that my son is the exception. All of those kids
deserve to be treated better at home and at school- there are reasons
their behavior is undesirable. I treat my son as a human being, which is
what he is!
I find it very ironic that my unschooled son is a better worker than
kids who are going to school- presumably in part to learn to be good
workers, isn't that the idea?
Heather
castlecarver wrote:
deserve to be treated better at home and at school- there are reasons
their behavior is undesirable. I treat my son as a human being, which is
what he is!
I find it very ironic that my unschooled son is a better worker than
kids who are going to school- presumably in part to learn to be good
workers, isn't that the idea?
Heather
castlecarver wrote:
>
> You must be very proud of your son for being such a good
> worker.
> Sandi
>
>
castlecarver
I am convinced that public schools are designed by corporations so as
to raise up a new generation of competent factory workers.
My own experience with my first job out of high school gave me that idea.
I got to school a few minutes before the bell rang. When the bell rang
I had 5 minutes to get to class and worked until the bell rang again,
then I went to a different class and did a different sort of work.
This happened every hour and bells also rang for lunch and break time
when we could all crowd into a little smoking area outside for a few
minutes to talk (Telling my age here no smoking areas in high schools
any more) My joy came when the last bell of the day rang and I could
go home.
My first job was in a refrigerator factory. I arrived a minute or two
before the bell rang whereupon I had 5 minutes to get to my station
and begin working. An hour later the bell would ring again and I would
go to a different station and do a different sort of work. This
happened every hour and bells also rang for lunch and break time when
we could all crowd into a little smoking area outside for a few
minutes to talk. The only difference was that I called the teacher the
line coach and the principal was called the manager. Oh and I got a
small paycheck and went home to my own apartment not my parents house.
But my joy came when the last bell of the shift rang and I could go home.
Most of the same people I "worked" with in high school were there
working in that factory. Many of them are STILL there. And factory
work is an honest living. But I think that the public school system is
designed to point most students in the direction of factory work.
to raise up a new generation of competent factory workers.
My own experience with my first job out of high school gave me that idea.
I got to school a few minutes before the bell rang. When the bell rang
I had 5 minutes to get to class and worked until the bell rang again,
then I went to a different class and did a different sort of work.
This happened every hour and bells also rang for lunch and break time
when we could all crowd into a little smoking area outside for a few
minutes to talk (Telling my age here no smoking areas in high schools
any more) My joy came when the last bell of the day rang and I could
go home.
My first job was in a refrigerator factory. I arrived a minute or two
before the bell rang whereupon I had 5 minutes to get to my station
and begin working. An hour later the bell would ring again and I would
go to a different station and do a different sort of work. This
happened every hour and bells also rang for lunch and break time when
we could all crowd into a little smoking area outside for a few
minutes to talk. The only difference was that I called the teacher the
line coach and the principal was called the manager. Oh and I got a
small paycheck and went home to my own apartment not my parents house.
But my joy came when the last bell of the shift rang and I could go home.
Most of the same people I "worked" with in high school were there
working in that factory. Many of them are STILL there. And factory
work is an honest living. But I think that the public school system is
designed to point most students in the direction of factory work.
--- In [email protected], hbmccarty <hbmccarty@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, but I also am sad that my son is the exception. All of those kids
> deserve to be treated better at home and at school- there are reasons
> their behavior is undesirable. I treat my son as a human being,
which is
> what he is!
>
> I find it very ironic that my unschooled son is a better worker than
> kids who are going to school- presumably in part to learn to be good
> workers, isn't that the idea?
>
> Heather
>
carenkh
--- In [email protected], "castlecarver" <artist@...>
wrote:
the Year - has quite a few articles about that, as well as several
books. (One of them called "The Underground History of American
Education" You can get that whole book online at
www.johntaylorgatto.com) Here's an article of his:
http://www.spinninglobe.net/againstschool.htm
Very perceptive of you! Some family members have a concern that my
radically unschooled kids won't be ready for the job market - I think
they'll be perfectly in tune with it! Especially as more and more
specialization and entrepreneurialship (is that a word? lol) occurs.
peace,
Caren
wrote:
>Why, yes - that's it, exactly! John Taylor Gatto - once NY Teacher of
> I am convinced that public schools are designed by corporations so as
> to raise up a new generation of competent factory workers.
the Year - has quite a few articles about that, as well as several
books. (One of them called "The Underground History of American
Education" You can get that whole book online at
www.johntaylorgatto.com) Here's an article of his:
http://www.spinninglobe.net/againstschool.htm
Very perceptive of you! Some family members have a concern that my
radically unschooled kids won't be ready for the job market - I think
they'll be perfectly in tune with it! Especially as more and more
specialization and entrepreneurialship (is that a word? lol) occurs.
peace,
Caren
castlecarver
NEW WORD :-) entrepreneurialship means business savvy..
Thanks for the link. This is very interesting and reflects my thoughts
on the matter. Only going deeper... I have pretty well talked my
entire family into homeschooling or unschooling with my theories of
programmed factory workers.
I also have wondered about the relative maturity of teens. My
grandparents were married at the ages of 14 & 15. They had a household
and children when they were 15 & 16. My grandfather went on to become
an engineer for the Navy during WWII. Hr lied about his age...
although he the Navy gave training, he never actually graduated high
school. And he was one of the most brilliant people I have ever met.
They stayed together for their entire lives.
I personally had a MUCH longer childhood. And was not prepared for
life as an adult when it was first required of me. I have had the same
concerns about my son with our version of education. Then he does
things that amaze me...
He asked for an allowance several months ago. Instead of just hading
him money, we asked him to think of how he could earn some money. This
did not include regular chores. We helped him with his ideas by
granting him a loan to start his own business. He usually makes about
$100 a week now... quite a lot for an 11 year old boy and much more
than what he requested in allowance.
Now for the really amazing thing. This month our well pump stopped
working. We as a family try to avoid borrowing money. But when this
happened we were just not prepared due to an incident with the car the
moth before which had taken our ready savings. But guess who had
enough money to buy a new well pump? Then when I tried to pay him back
this week he said "Oh you don't have to pay me back. We all use the
water and I've been thinking I need to help out with things since I am
making my own money now."
I almost fell over ...
Thanks for the link. This is very interesting and reflects my thoughts
on the matter. Only going deeper... I have pretty well talked my
entire family into homeschooling or unschooling with my theories of
programmed factory workers.
I also have wondered about the relative maturity of teens. My
grandparents were married at the ages of 14 & 15. They had a household
and children when they were 15 & 16. My grandfather went on to become
an engineer for the Navy during WWII. Hr lied about his age...
although he the Navy gave training, he never actually graduated high
school. And he was one of the most brilliant people I have ever met.
They stayed together for their entire lives.
I personally had a MUCH longer childhood. And was not prepared for
life as an adult when it was first required of me. I have had the same
concerns about my son with our version of education. Then he does
things that amaze me...
He asked for an allowance several months ago. Instead of just hading
him money, we asked him to think of how he could earn some money. This
did not include regular chores. We helped him with his ideas by
granting him a loan to start his own business. He usually makes about
$100 a week now... quite a lot for an 11 year old boy and much more
than what he requested in allowance.
Now for the really amazing thing. This month our well pump stopped
working. We as a family try to avoid borrowing money. But when this
happened we were just not prepared due to an incident with the car the
moth before which had taken our ready savings. But guess who had
enough money to buy a new well pump? Then when I tried to pay him back
this week he said "Oh you don't have to pay me back. We all use the
water and I've been thinking I need to help out with things since I am
making my own money now."
I almost fell over ...
--- In [email protected], "carenkh" <carenkh@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "castlecarver" <artist@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I am convinced that public schools are designed by corporations so as
> > to raise up a new generation of competent factory workers.
>
>
> Why, yes - that's it, exactly! John Taylor Gatto - once NY Teacher of
> the Year - has quite a few articles about that, as well as several
> books. (One of them called "The Underground History of American
> Education" You can get that whole book online at
> www.johntaylorgatto.com) Here's an article of his:
>
> http://www.spinninglobe.net/againstschool.htm
>
> Very perceptive of you! Some family members have a concern that my
> radically unschooled kids won't be ready for the job market - I think
> they'll be perfectly in tune with it! Especially as more and more
> specialization and entrepreneurialship (is that a word? lol) occurs.
>
> peace,
> Caren
>
trektheory
--- In [email protected], "castlecarver" <artist@...>
wrote:
What kind of business did he start? (Inquiring minds want to know...)
Linda
wrote:
> He asked for an allowance several months ago. Instead of just hadingAwesome!
> him money, we asked him to think of how he could earn some money. This
> did not include regular chores. We helped him with his ideas by
> granting him a loan to start his own business. He usually makes about
> $100 a week now... quite a lot for an 11 year old boy and much more
> than what he requested in allowance.
What kind of business did he start? (Inquiring minds want to know...)
Linda
Deb Lewis
***He asked for an allowance several months ago. Instead of just
hading
him money, we asked him to think of how he could earn some money. ***
Helping people think of ways to earn money is fine but I wonder why
you think of sharing family money with a family member as "just
handing him money."
That *sounds* like "handout" which can have a fairly negative
connotation. If adults in a family can have money to spend (beyond
necessity) then there is no reason a child in the family can't have
money to spend.
There are lots of reasons why parents might not be able to give money
to their kids but to try to teach a kid a lesson is not a reason
that's easily justified within an unschooling philosophy.
***This did not include regular chores. ***
Does he have regular chores that he's required to do? Have you
considered that people learn things like housekeeping and helping
others in the same way they learn to talk and walk and eat with a
spoon and read and tell time? There are some very good bits on the
subject of unschooling and chores at Joyce Fetteroll's website
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/ scroll down on the right. And some
here: http://sandradodd.com/chores
*** But guess who had
enough money to buy a new well pump? ***
That was really generous and sweet of him. And much more helpful
than if he'd asked you to think of ways you could earn some extra
money. And since he knew that as a family you try to avoid
borrowing money, he didn't even grant you a loan that you had to pay
back. ; )
***I almost fell over ...***
If you always think the best of him you won't risk injury of falling
over when he shows generosity even beyond what is shown to him.
Deb Lewis
hading
him money, we asked him to think of how he could earn some money. ***
Helping people think of ways to earn money is fine but I wonder why
you think of sharing family money with a family member as "just
handing him money."
That *sounds* like "handout" which can have a fairly negative
connotation. If adults in a family can have money to spend (beyond
necessity) then there is no reason a child in the family can't have
money to spend.
There are lots of reasons why parents might not be able to give money
to their kids but to try to teach a kid a lesson is not a reason
that's easily justified within an unschooling philosophy.
***This did not include regular chores. ***
Does he have regular chores that he's required to do? Have you
considered that people learn things like housekeeping and helping
others in the same way they learn to talk and walk and eat with a
spoon and read and tell time? There are some very good bits on the
subject of unschooling and chores at Joyce Fetteroll's website
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/ scroll down on the right. And some
here: http://sandradodd.com/chores
*** But guess who had
enough money to buy a new well pump? ***
That was really generous and sweet of him. And much more helpful
than if he'd asked you to think of ways you could earn some extra
money. And since he knew that as a family you try to avoid
borrowing money, he didn't even grant you a loan that you had to pay
back. ; )
***I almost fell over ...***
If you always think the best of him you won't risk injury of falling
over when he shows generosity even beyond what is shown to him.
Deb Lewis
castlecarver
Hi Linda,
He has become a "Merchant" We take him to salvage auctions and
wholesale auctions and allow him to bid on lots of items he feels he
can resell. The he lists some on eBay using my id, he takes other
items to a local flea market, and still other items to a live retail
auction. He is responsible for buying his items, all seller fees and
gas money. Most people who we deal with love the fact that he is so
young and learning to run a business.
He usually buys collectibles, toys and bicycles. This week he bought
electronics and purses. He has made a few mistakes. But that is all
part of learning. And it is a LOT of fun. But it takes a lot of time too.
Sandi
--- In [email protected], "trektheory"
<trektheory@...> wrote:
He has become a "Merchant" We take him to salvage auctions and
wholesale auctions and allow him to bid on lots of items he feels he
can resell. The he lists some on eBay using my id, he takes other
items to a local flea market, and still other items to a live retail
auction. He is responsible for buying his items, all seller fees and
gas money. Most people who we deal with love the fact that he is so
young and learning to run a business.
He usually buys collectibles, toys and bicycles. This week he bought
electronics and purses. He has made a few mistakes. But that is all
part of learning. And it is a LOT of fun. But it takes a lot of time too.
Sandi
--- In [email protected], "trektheory"
<trektheory@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "castlecarver" <artist@>
> wrote:
>
>
> > He asked for an allowance several months ago. Instead of just hading
> > him money, we asked him to think of how he could earn some money. This
> > did not include regular chores. We helped him with his ideas by
> > granting him a loan to start his own business. He usually makes about
> > $100 a week now... quite a lot for an 11 year old boy and much more
> > than what he requested in allowance.
>
> Awesome!
>
> What kind of business did he start? (Inquiring minds want to know...)
>
>
> Linda
>
castlecarver
Have we ever actually met? Then how can you make a judgment about the
amount of generosity I show to my son? You know nothing of my family
life or circumstances. It is not a matter of not wanting to share with
family members. As far as sharing is concerned... We give our son the
best that we can afford without creating debt. And have often gone
without the extras in order to make sure he has the extra things that
make him happy beyond his necessities. So he was already spending
money though it went from my hand to the merchant. The items he wanted
went to him. He understood that. When he asked for allowance he was
asking for a way to have money that was his own... bypassing us.
If unschooling is about learning by experiencing the world, then why
is helping a child to earn money instead of giving an allowance not a
part of it? Which do you think makes the boy happier? Discovering that
he can earn $100 a week or more by doing something he really enjoys,
or us opening a wallet to give him $20 a week which is what he
requested. I feel that this was a great opportunity for a lesson...
Is it not a fact that when my son becomes a man he will need to earn a
living? Shall I then spare my child from earning money while he is
young and instead give him money over and above what I have already
sacrificed to give him? Or should I give him money and have him do
without the things I gave him previously unless he spends the money?
And what will that do to the attitude of the man I see him rapidly
becoming? Will he expect to be given money? Probably not... but I
still believe he is better for my leading into learning to manage a
business. I'm sure you have heard the saying "Give a man a fish; you
have fed him for a day. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for
a lifetime." So which of the two is more generous, meeting an
immediate need, or helping one learn to meet that need independently
both now and in the future?
As far as chores are concerned, we as a family rotate certain tasks.
We ALL get up and do them together at the same time every day.Not by
schedule but by habit. He has been in the habit of helping since he
was able to pick up a broom and sweep or vacuum a floor. We handled
this by simply saying "Here... it's your turn... you can do it. I'll
help." Similar to "OK take a step. You can do it. I'll hold your
hands." And he has never questioned that since he is a part of the
family then he is a part of the chores which we do together as a
family. How is this not like walking and talking? It is simply a fact
of our lives. No one likes to clean the toilet so we each take it in
turns. If we didn't organize it that way, then it would never get
cleaned. My days are Sunday and Wednesday. It is the adults in the
family who came up with this system but we ALL abide by it so that we
may live comfortably and without the stench of filth.
Yes it was very generous of him to buy the well pump. However we did
not ask for his money. We didn't even ask for a loan although he at
first suggested it to be a loan. We were planning to use the card...
If he had asked me to think of ways to earn more money, I wouldn't
have been surprised. We went for a week without running water.
So I had asked myself that very question several times before he
offered to buy the well pump. Most questions are helpful if worded in
a positive manner so as to lead you to new thoughts which are positive.
I do think the best of my son. However his actions surprised me. Not
because he showed me more generosity that I have shown him, but
because he had been saving to buy a very expensive racing bike. He has
wanted that bike for about two years and we simply could not afford
it. He had saved nearly enough to buy the bike a little more than the
well pump costs. So when he said not to pay him back, I was stunned. I
know how much he wants the bike and we had originally agreed that this
was a loan. But then maybe the generosity that I have shown him in
other matters affected his decision. I should hope so.
amount of generosity I show to my son? You know nothing of my family
life or circumstances. It is not a matter of not wanting to share with
family members. As far as sharing is concerned... We give our son the
best that we can afford without creating debt. And have often gone
without the extras in order to make sure he has the extra things that
make him happy beyond his necessities. So he was already spending
money though it went from my hand to the merchant. The items he wanted
went to him. He understood that. When he asked for allowance he was
asking for a way to have money that was his own... bypassing us.
If unschooling is about learning by experiencing the world, then why
is helping a child to earn money instead of giving an allowance not a
part of it? Which do you think makes the boy happier? Discovering that
he can earn $100 a week or more by doing something he really enjoys,
or us opening a wallet to give him $20 a week which is what he
requested. I feel that this was a great opportunity for a lesson...
Is it not a fact that when my son becomes a man he will need to earn a
living? Shall I then spare my child from earning money while he is
young and instead give him money over and above what I have already
sacrificed to give him? Or should I give him money and have him do
without the things I gave him previously unless he spends the money?
And what will that do to the attitude of the man I see him rapidly
becoming? Will he expect to be given money? Probably not... but I
still believe he is better for my leading into learning to manage a
business. I'm sure you have heard the saying "Give a man a fish; you
have fed him for a day. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for
a lifetime." So which of the two is more generous, meeting an
immediate need, or helping one learn to meet that need independently
both now and in the future?
As far as chores are concerned, we as a family rotate certain tasks.
We ALL get up and do them together at the same time every day.Not by
schedule but by habit. He has been in the habit of helping since he
was able to pick up a broom and sweep or vacuum a floor. We handled
this by simply saying "Here... it's your turn... you can do it. I'll
help." Similar to "OK take a step. You can do it. I'll hold your
hands." And he has never questioned that since he is a part of the
family then he is a part of the chores which we do together as a
family. How is this not like walking and talking? It is simply a fact
of our lives. No one likes to clean the toilet so we each take it in
turns. If we didn't organize it that way, then it would never get
cleaned. My days are Sunday and Wednesday. It is the adults in the
family who came up with this system but we ALL abide by it so that we
may live comfortably and without the stench of filth.
Yes it was very generous of him to buy the well pump. However we did
not ask for his money. We didn't even ask for a loan although he at
first suggested it to be a loan. We were planning to use the card...
If he had asked me to think of ways to earn more money, I wouldn't
have been surprised. We went for a week without running water.
So I had asked myself that very question several times before he
offered to buy the well pump. Most questions are helpful if worded in
a positive manner so as to lead you to new thoughts which are positive.
I do think the best of my son. However his actions surprised me. Not
because he showed me more generosity that I have shown him, but
because he had been saving to buy a very expensive racing bike. He has
wanted that bike for about two years and we simply could not afford
it. He had saved nearly enough to buy the bike a little more than the
well pump costs. So when he said not to pay him back, I was stunned. I
know how much he wants the bike and we had originally agreed that this
was a loan. But then maybe the generosity that I have shown him in
other matters affected his decision. I should hope so.
--- In [email protected], "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> ***He asked for an allowance several months ago. Instead of just
> hading
> him money, we asked him to think of how he could earn some money. ***
>
> Helping people think of ways to earn money is fine but I wonder why
> you think of sharing family money with a family member as "just
> handing him money."
> That *sounds* like "handout" which can have a fairly negative
> connotation. If adults in a family can have money to spend (beyond
> necessity) then there is no reason a child in the family can't have
> money to spend.
>
> There are lots of reasons why parents might not be able to give money
> to their kids but to try to teach a kid a lesson is not a reason
> that's easily justified within an unschooling philosophy.
>
> ***This did not include regular chores. ***
>
> Does he have regular chores that he's required to do? Have you
> considered that people learn things like housekeeping and helping
> others in the same way they learn to talk and walk and eat with a
> spoon and read and tell time? There are some very good bits on the
> subject of unschooling and chores at Joyce Fetteroll's website
> http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/ scroll down on the right. And some
> here: http://sandradodd.com/chores
>
>
> *** But guess who had
> enough money to buy a new well pump? ***
>
> That was really generous and sweet of him. And much more helpful
> than if he'd asked you to think of ways you could earn some extra
> money. And since he knew that as a family you try to avoid
> borrowing money, he didn't even grant you a loan that you had to pay
> back. ; )
>
> ***I almost fell over ...***
>
> If you always think the best of him you won't risk injury of falling
> over when he shows generosity even beyond what is shown to him.
>
>
> Deb Lewis
>
hbmccarty
My daughter has recently started a small business selling jewelry- she
has sold some
to family and friends, and has set up a page on etsy(like ebay for
handmade items-pretty cool). She has in the past sold some of her
unwanted toys on ebay. She really loves to be able to shop often, she
loves shopping sprees. Just the process of shopping is delightful to
her. Sometimes we can do this, sometimes not. We have given her an
allowance, and then also just her buy things, which I will continue to do.
My son is 14 and had a job this summer- he couldn't wait to turn 14. He
has thought about having a business as well, but isn't sure. He may look
for another job. He does stuff for us for money also.
Our personal resources are limited at times- as I chose a long time ago
not to enter the corporate workforce, and then had kids and couldn't
bear to leave them, so have only worked part time, sporadically. My
husband made a similar choice and is in the trades as he much prefers to
be independent and not work in an office. He makes good money when he
works, but he has times of not working, no health insurance, etc. We
choose to live in an area that is somewhat depressed, to be near family
and to have all the other advantages of living in an area that is less
crowded, more home schoolers, etc. However this leaves us not able to
afford all the things the kids want all the time. When they were
frustrated by this we have talked about the choices we made, and they
haven't asked us to make different ones, though I would consider it. One
thing we did offer them was to help them figure out ways to bring in
money from outside the family, and have supported them when they chose this.
We have always bought used clothing, and the kids don't always want to
do this anymore. It is perfect for them to be earning some money, as
then we can all have more of what we want, and not have to make these
hard choices about time vs money that face us constantly. It really is
liberating for them and us.
I have felt so sad so often about not being able to afford things the
kids want, but then if I am busy and have a lot of freelance work or
helping my husband with his bookkeeping then my time is severely
limited, and they also really need a lot of my time driving and helping
and being together. Accepting these limits and finding a balance and
being comfortable with them has been difficult for me- especially as I
am really really now trying not to say no unnecessarily. Sometimes this
leads to me saying yes when I am not really comfortable with it-
spending money we don't have, or just getting totally exhausted. It is
SO nice when I don't have work, and my husband is logging hours, and we
can relax and say yes a lot.
Heather
has sold some
to family and friends, and has set up a page on etsy(like ebay for
handmade items-pretty cool). She has in the past sold some of her
unwanted toys on ebay. She really loves to be able to shop often, she
loves shopping sprees. Just the process of shopping is delightful to
her. Sometimes we can do this, sometimes not. We have given her an
allowance, and then also just her buy things, which I will continue to do.
My son is 14 and had a job this summer- he couldn't wait to turn 14. He
has thought about having a business as well, but isn't sure. He may look
for another job. He does stuff for us for money also.
Our personal resources are limited at times- as I chose a long time ago
not to enter the corporate workforce, and then had kids and couldn't
bear to leave them, so have only worked part time, sporadically. My
husband made a similar choice and is in the trades as he much prefers to
be independent and not work in an office. He makes good money when he
works, but he has times of not working, no health insurance, etc. We
choose to live in an area that is somewhat depressed, to be near family
and to have all the other advantages of living in an area that is less
crowded, more home schoolers, etc. However this leaves us not able to
afford all the things the kids want all the time. When they were
frustrated by this we have talked about the choices we made, and they
haven't asked us to make different ones, though I would consider it. One
thing we did offer them was to help them figure out ways to bring in
money from outside the family, and have supported them when they chose this.
We have always bought used clothing, and the kids don't always want to
do this anymore. It is perfect for them to be earning some money, as
then we can all have more of what we want, and not have to make these
hard choices about time vs money that face us constantly. It really is
liberating for them and us.
I have felt so sad so often about not being able to afford things the
kids want, but then if I am busy and have a lot of freelance work or
helping my husband with his bookkeeping then my time is severely
limited, and they also really need a lot of my time driving and helping
and being together. Accepting these limits and finding a balance and
being comfortable with them has been difficult for me- especially as I
am really really now trying not to say no unnecessarily. Sometimes this
leads to me saying yes when I am not really comfortable with it-
spending money we don't have, or just getting totally exhausted. It is
SO nice when I don't have work, and my husband is logging hours, and we
can relax and say yes a lot.
Heather
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 3, 2007, at 11:07 PM, castlecarver wrote:
more mindful and respectful of their children, then any ideas that a
parent can't pick up and apply to their own lives to be more
respectful needs held up and questioned.
It's exactly because no one can see the respect you're giving your
son that the idea you presented to the list was examined. Respect
isn't inherent in "Instead of just handing him money, we asked him to
think of how he could earn some money." A parent picking up that idea
could easily do it in a very controlling way because there isn't any
help in the idea on how to do it respectfully.
While the list is to help parents help their kids explore the world,
the ideas need to be grounded in growing relationships.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Have we ever actually met? Then how can you make a judgment about theIf the list is seen as *a* philosophical recipe for parents to become
> amount of generosity I show to my son?
more mindful and respectful of their children, then any ideas that a
parent can't pick up and apply to their own lives to be more
respectful needs held up and questioned.
It's exactly because no one can see the respect you're giving your
son that the idea you presented to the list was examined. Respect
isn't inherent in "Instead of just handing him money, we asked him to
think of how he could earn some money." A parent picking up that idea
could easily do it in a very controlling way because there isn't any
help in the idea on how to do it respectfully.
While the list is to help parents help their kids explore the world,
the ideas need to be grounded in growing relationships.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robert Saxon
Actually, I'm quite interested in the HOW you did what you did. I'm very
process-oriented in some things, and this is one of them.
example did not fully demonstrate it. In other words (to me), it did not
show HOW you did what you did, just that something happened, and that good
things have come out of it.
So if you wouldn't mind terribly, HOW did you go about this? I'm really
interested to know how you negotiated that.
--Rob
DH to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (5.66 years) and Elissa (4.4166 years)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
process-oriented in some things, and this is one of them.
> It's exactly because no one can see the respect you're giving yourBingo. I would NOT say that you disrespected your son. Rather, your
> son that the idea you presented to the list was examined.
example did not fully demonstrate it. In other words (to me), it did not
show HOW you did what you did, just that something happened, and that good
things have come out of it.
So if you wouldn't mind terribly, HOW did you go about this? I'm really
interested to know how you negotiated that.
--Rob
DH to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (5.66 years) and Elissa (4.4166 years)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
castlecarver
Rob,
Thank you, you are correct. I didn't give a lot of details. But that
one response could have been better worded. I didn't feel that my idea
was being examined, I rather felt that I was being personally
attacked. Oh well...
This is a long story... And I get wordy sometimes so bear with me.
Here is what happened. DS came to me and said something like. "My
friends get $20 a week from their parents for allowance. I think I
should get $20 a week so I can buy some things on my own. Plus one guy
I know gets $40 a month to mow the lawn and clean his room AND
allowance. I think I should be paid to mow the lawn and clean my room."
My Answer. "Hmm let me discuss this with Pop."
In our private discussion we decided that not only could we not afford
it and still support our boy's bike racing sport, this would be an
opportunity to help him to become more independent and learn about the
economics of the household.
After looking over the finances we all sat down and had a discussion
about it. We explained just how much money we have and just how much
we must spend each month on basic bills. Both DH & I run home based
businesses so I keep a record of income and budget for each and for
the household. I showed him the records. Our businesses support us but
oftentimes we are pretty well strapped for cash.
We then explained that if we gave him that much allowance and paid him
that much for chores he has been doing for free, then we wouldn't be
able to pay for things that we normally buy for him: bicycle race
entry fees, tires and other upkeep on the bike, and practice sessions,
gas money to get to those races, etc. So if he still wanted to get
those things it would often have to come out of his allowance. (He
didn't like that idea because he wanted money in addition to those fun
things.)
Or we could help him find a way to make up a job for himself to earn
his own money just as each of us made up our own jobs. We told him to
think of 3 things that he thought he would like to try and we would
see how we could help. We gave him 3 days to research each idea.
His first idea was learning to make chainsaw carvings to sell. That's
what I do. I explained to him that it's too dangerous for a little
boy. Maybe I'll teach him to carve with a chainsaw when he is bigger
and stronger. I offered my smaller tools and lessons. He tried some
smaller carvings but didn't have the patience for it. Maybe later...
His second idea was bicycle repair and sales. Which is what DH does.
Honestly this is also one for an older boy. People who ride seriously
tend to not want to leave their bike with a very young boy to be
repaired. No matter how competent he happens to be.
His last idea was simply Yard Sales or flea markets. Which is fine
once or twice with your own junk errr merchandise. But we asked him
"How are you going to keep getting things to sell? You have to keep
getting items or once you run out of your own things, you won't have a
business any more."
That day, he and I Googled "wholesale items" and found a weekly
wholesale auction in our area. The first week we just watched. He
wanted to bid on items but I told him that he had to watch to see how
it is done and to be careful about bidding. When we got home he was SO
excited I thought he would never stop talking about that auction and
what he could get for such cheap prices. That one experience made him
into one very savvy shopper. :-)
Now we explained that he would need some cash to bid on items and pay
for any fee at flea markets when he sold those items. And that we
would loan him the money. We made a project out of it. We explained
that in the real world when he needed money for a business loan, he
would need to write a proposal that explained just what he planned to
do with the money and how he would run his business. Also how and when
he would pay the loan. His proposal was addressed to "The Bank of Mom
and Pop"
The Bank of Mom & Pop loaned the young entrepreneur enough to bid on
items to fill a flea market table, pay table fees, and gas money to
get there on the first trip. After that he was responsible for
covering all his overhead costs and paying back the loan. Which he did.
Since then he has discovered several more auctions, a few more flea
markets, and eBay. His little business does very well over all. He has
made some wise choices and some not so wise. Only once has he returned
to the Bank of Mom & Pop when he wanted to buy something that was a
GREAT DEAL. But we didn't have that much money at the time. So instead
of missing out on that great deal, he negotiated with another adult
merchant to share the deal. They both came out quite well.
At first we bid on his behalf but now most of the auctioneers know him
and accept bids from him. Though we accompany him to auctions and flea
markets, we do not speak for him. If he looks to us for advice we give
it. But we have gotten used to saying "These are his things. You need
to speak with him."
When he asks if he should buy something I nearly always respond with
questions. "Do you think you can make a profit? What's your target
market? Who would buy it? Where would you sell it?" If he asks me if I
think he should take an offer on an item I nearly always answer "If
you take that offer, are you making enough to suit you? Will you be
happy with the offer? If the answer is no then don't take the offer.
It's your item so you decide."
So that is the story of how we lead our son into being a right good
businessman. We've made quite a friends in the process.
Sand
--- In [email protected], "Robert Saxon"
<TheSaxons@...> wrote:
Thank you, you are correct. I didn't give a lot of details. But that
one response could have been better worded. I didn't feel that my idea
was being examined, I rather felt that I was being personally
attacked. Oh well...
This is a long story... And I get wordy sometimes so bear with me.
Here is what happened. DS came to me and said something like. "My
friends get $20 a week from their parents for allowance. I think I
should get $20 a week so I can buy some things on my own. Plus one guy
I know gets $40 a month to mow the lawn and clean his room AND
allowance. I think I should be paid to mow the lawn and clean my room."
My Answer. "Hmm let me discuss this with Pop."
In our private discussion we decided that not only could we not afford
it and still support our boy's bike racing sport, this would be an
opportunity to help him to become more independent and learn about the
economics of the household.
After looking over the finances we all sat down and had a discussion
about it. We explained just how much money we have and just how much
we must spend each month on basic bills. Both DH & I run home based
businesses so I keep a record of income and budget for each and for
the household. I showed him the records. Our businesses support us but
oftentimes we are pretty well strapped for cash.
We then explained that if we gave him that much allowance and paid him
that much for chores he has been doing for free, then we wouldn't be
able to pay for things that we normally buy for him: bicycle race
entry fees, tires and other upkeep on the bike, and practice sessions,
gas money to get to those races, etc. So if he still wanted to get
those things it would often have to come out of his allowance. (He
didn't like that idea because he wanted money in addition to those fun
things.)
Or we could help him find a way to make up a job for himself to earn
his own money just as each of us made up our own jobs. We told him to
think of 3 things that he thought he would like to try and we would
see how we could help. We gave him 3 days to research each idea.
His first idea was learning to make chainsaw carvings to sell. That's
what I do. I explained to him that it's too dangerous for a little
boy. Maybe I'll teach him to carve with a chainsaw when he is bigger
and stronger. I offered my smaller tools and lessons. He tried some
smaller carvings but didn't have the patience for it. Maybe later...
His second idea was bicycle repair and sales. Which is what DH does.
Honestly this is also one for an older boy. People who ride seriously
tend to not want to leave their bike with a very young boy to be
repaired. No matter how competent he happens to be.
His last idea was simply Yard Sales or flea markets. Which is fine
once or twice with your own junk errr merchandise. But we asked him
"How are you going to keep getting things to sell? You have to keep
getting items or once you run out of your own things, you won't have a
business any more."
That day, he and I Googled "wholesale items" and found a weekly
wholesale auction in our area. The first week we just watched. He
wanted to bid on items but I told him that he had to watch to see how
it is done and to be careful about bidding. When we got home he was SO
excited I thought he would never stop talking about that auction and
what he could get for such cheap prices. That one experience made him
into one very savvy shopper. :-)
Now we explained that he would need some cash to bid on items and pay
for any fee at flea markets when he sold those items. And that we
would loan him the money. We made a project out of it. We explained
that in the real world when he needed money for a business loan, he
would need to write a proposal that explained just what he planned to
do with the money and how he would run his business. Also how and when
he would pay the loan. His proposal was addressed to "The Bank of Mom
and Pop"
The Bank of Mom & Pop loaned the young entrepreneur enough to bid on
items to fill a flea market table, pay table fees, and gas money to
get there on the first trip. After that he was responsible for
covering all his overhead costs and paying back the loan. Which he did.
Since then he has discovered several more auctions, a few more flea
markets, and eBay. His little business does very well over all. He has
made some wise choices and some not so wise. Only once has he returned
to the Bank of Mom & Pop when he wanted to buy something that was a
GREAT DEAL. But we didn't have that much money at the time. So instead
of missing out on that great deal, he negotiated with another adult
merchant to share the deal. They both came out quite well.
At first we bid on his behalf but now most of the auctioneers know him
and accept bids from him. Though we accompany him to auctions and flea
markets, we do not speak for him. If he looks to us for advice we give
it. But we have gotten used to saying "These are his things. You need
to speak with him."
When he asks if he should buy something I nearly always respond with
questions. "Do you think you can make a profit? What's your target
market? Who would buy it? Where would you sell it?" If he asks me if I
think he should take an offer on an item I nearly always answer "If
you take that offer, are you making enough to suit you? Will you be
happy with the offer? If the answer is no then don't take the offer.
It's your item so you decide."
So that is the story of how we lead our son into being a right good
businessman. We've made quite a friends in the process.
Sand
--- In [email protected], "Robert Saxon"
<TheSaxons@...> wrote:
>very
> Actually, I'm quite interested in the HOW you did what you did. I'm
> process-oriented in some things, and this is one of them.did not
>
> > It's exactly because no one can see the respect you're giving your
> > son that the idea you presented to the list was examined.
>
> Bingo. I would NOT say that you disrespected your son. Rather, your
> example did not fully demonstrate it. In other words (to me), it
> show HOW you did what you did, just that something happened, andthat good
> things have come out of it.
>
> So if you wouldn't mind terribly, HOW did you go about this? I'm really
> interested to know how you negotiated that.
>
> --Rob
>
> DH to Seana for 10 years
> "Daddy!" to Genevieve (5.66 years) and Elissa (4.4166 years)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Deb Lewis
Since this is an unschooling discussion list, I'm looking at what you
wrote about one incident in the light of unschooling. I hope
unschooling parents think about that idea of "just handing" children
money.
Lot's of time parents who write that their kid is part of the family
and so should share part in the housework, don't feel that the kid is
enough a part of the family to share in some pocket money. So I want
to ramble a little about the notion of "just handing" someone money,
which makes it sound very much like they're not honestly worthy of
cash unless the parent gets something out of the deal too.
In my family, my husband has been the wage earner all of Dylan's
(ds's) life. I've made a little money here or there but David has
paid the mortgage and the bills and the big stuff. When I want money
I take it (if we have it<g>) If he ever said to or about me that
instead of "just handing" me money I should think of ways to earn
some I'd be positively snorty and it would not help me think kindly
of him.
It used to be there was a substantial imbalance of power between wage
earning men and non wage earning women in marriage. Women often had
to ask for money for things they needed or wanted that were beyond
the necessities of keeping a home. Imagine if your household had
money but your partner chose instead to teach you a lesson and asked
you to find ways to earn extra money. Would that feel good? Would
your relationship with your partner be helped by his or her efforts
to control and manipulate you?
As I wrote before, I think it's fine to help someone think of ways to
earn money. But not if it's a manipulation to provide a "lesson" one
person (an adult) thinks the other person (a child) should now
learn. I think it's even better for unschooling parents to strive
to reduce or eliminate (if it can be eliminated) the imbalance of
power between our children and ourselves. Help is better than a
lesson. It will help your understanding of unschooling to weigh the
effect and value of trying to teach someone a lesson against the
effect and value of offering honest help and support without
manipulation.
***If unschooling is about learning by experiencing the world, then
why
is helping a child to earn money instead of giving an allowance not a
part of it? ***
Unschooling is partly about understanding that our kids will learn
what they need without us teaching lessons. That's a very basic
concept of unschooling, that learning is natural and does not require
teaching.
Helping a child earn money, if that's what he wants to do, is very
kind and in keeping with the principles of unschooling. Not sharing
family money for the purpose of teaching someone a lesson is not.
***Is it not a fact that when my son becomes a man he will need to
earn a
living? ***
Maybe and maybe not. There are many things we cannot know. I know
three adult men who are husbands and fathers who do not "earn a
living," so it is not a fact that all men need to earn a living.
The world changes fast. There are things we can't conceive of that
our kids will be living with in the future. Life will be different
for them than it is for us.
***Shall I then spare my child from earning money while he is
young and instead give him money over and above what I have already
sacrificed to give him? ***
Why did you use the phrase "spare him?" Helping someone think of
ways to earn money, if that's what they want, no matter their age, is
a nice thing to do. Sharing family money with family members is a
nice thing to do. It is not an either/ or situation. One is not
required to give children money in order to "spare" them the
(apparently hideous necessity? ) of earning money. Nor should a
child have to earn his own money in order to have the things he wants
if other family members have spending money. What is it that you
believe you sacrificed that he is not entitled to as your child? As
parents we get to make all the choices about the way we live with our
children. It will help parents who want to unschool to understand
that the choices they make can build their relationship with their
children or can undermine their relationship. Choices that build our
relationships are better for unschooling.
I hope parents who think of parenting as a sacrifice can change their
thinking and consider the generosity and kindness we show our kids to
be a choice we make that is as much for our emotional well being as
it is our kids. If there are any sacrifices in a parent child
relationship it is almost always the child making sacrifices, having
no choice about being born, about what kind of parents he gets, about
whether he ends up with siblings about what foods are in the house,
and then be subjected to his parents brand of parenting which almost
always includes some system of punishment - taking away his things,
his freedom, etc.
Parents sacrifice my ass. If you don't want your life changed by
kids don't have kids.
***Or should I give him money and have him do
without the things I gave him previously unless he spends the money?
***
Those aren't your only choices.<go> As parents we can make the
choice to be as considerate of our kids as we are of ourselves and
our partners. He could have parents who get him all of what he needs
and as much of what he wants as they can afford AND some spending
money of his own. That's a good option that will show him how to be
generous with his own kids one day. I'm not saying it was a bad idea
to help him start his own business. I'm looking at the other stuff.
That you decided he needed to learn a lesson about money, that you
decided he wasn't worth twenty bucks a month of your own spending
money.
***And what will that do to the attitude of the man I see him rapidly
becoming? ***
He's eleven, right? I think if he lives with generous people who
help him when he needs help and who don't try to manipulate him, he
will be a generous and helpful man.
*** I'm sure you have heard the saying "Give a man a fish; you
have fed him for a day. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for
a lifetime." So which of the two is more generous,***
There's a problem with that saying. <g> Anyone who ever ate a fish
can figure out how to catch a fish. It's not rocket science. It's so
easy even a caveman could do it. <g> And really, if a man came to
your door, hungry would you feed the poor bugger or would you make
him first go earn the money to buy some food to eat? What if it was
Jesus or Buddha or Muhammad? If someone is in need it is NOT more
generous to teach them a lesson than it is to help them
immediately. One of the beautiful things about unschooling is that
it doesn't set a predetermined course and rate of speed for our
kids. We neither hinder nor hurry them. No one needs to learn to
fish at eleven.<g> No one should be prevented from fishing if they
want to, (fishing is metaphor for learning) but the choice to fish
or not to fish should be up to the individual, not the individual's
mom. <g>
(That saying implies a hungry man, with an ocean full of tasty fish
nearby is such a dolt he'd never figure out he could get his own damn
fish if you first gave him a fish. It might sound like something,
but it's crap. (or is that carp?) Hunger isn't caused by a lack of
willingness of hungry people to try to get food.)
"*** Similar to "OK take a step. You can do it. I'll hold your
hands." ***
Sweeping isn't genetically programmed like walking. Mom's don't make
their kids walk by saying a few encouraging words. Some people
might find that sweeping up helps them have a better quality of life
but not all people care about clean or dirty floors. Not all people
live where there are floors to sweep and dishes to wash, but all
people who are physiologically able, walk. Mom's can make their
kids sweep up though, because of that power imbalance mentioned
earlier it can be that kids comply with a parents wishes not because
they see value in the task they've been assigned but because they
feel pressured to do what they're told out of fear of punishment or
some other misery if they don't comply.
A kid can only naturally help with household things if he's free to
help or not help. If a thing is valuable to an individual then that
person will do that thing.
***...since he is a part of the
family then he is a part of the chores which we do together as a
family.***
There's a significant difference. It's the parents set the standards
for cleanliness that they then expect the children to adopt as their
own and live up to. Requiring a child to do chores in a home
selected by the parents to a standard set by the parents is not the
same as the inborn desire and physiological drive of humans to
acquire language and to walk. Maybe he's happy to help out and
never questions your system. But what if he does? If he doesn't
want to clean the toilet next time can he skip it?
Learning is natural but that doesn't mean all things learned have the
same value to the individual. Walking and talking will be valuable
for your son's lifetime. Sweeping may or may not be. The learning
of all those things can be done naturally.
***No one likes to clean the toilet so we each take it in
turns. ***
So because no one likes it everyone has to do it? Would it make
sense to fix a meal you knew absolutely no one would enjoy? Would
you go on vacation to a place no one wanted to go? Would you rent a
movie no one wanted to see? If you believe the toilet must be
maintained at a certain level then take responsibility for that
conviction and be the one to clean the pot. I think of cleaning as a
gift I can give my family, to make our little house of chipping paint
and second hand store furniture a place of peace and comfort. I
worked as a housekeeper in a motel and if there's anything can make
you see cleaning your own bathroom as a very pleasant task it's
cleaning up after a motel full burly hunters who are subsisting for a
week on chewing tobacco and sausages and beer. <g>
***If we didn't organize it that way, then it would never get
cleaned.***
You could clean it. You could hire it cleaned. You could barter it
cleaned. You could trade with a friend who just loves shining
porcelain and do her laundry or mow her lawn. By saying it would
NEVER get cleaned are you telling us that you yourself would refuse
to clean it if it was not your turn and you saw that it was grimy?
Put a bleach disc in the tank. Put a box of premoistened cleaning
towels on the back of the toilet. Every morning when you get up go
wipe off the toilet. It's not a big deal, it takes about one minute,
it gets done every day, you're not making anyone else live up to your
standard for a clean toilet.
My kid helps with some housework too, so I know kids help generously
and willingly. The difference in an unschooling family is that kids
come to help with cleaning because they want to, not because parents
decide they should. The same reasoning applies to chores as applies
to math and reading. When a person sees value in reading and is
ready he will learn to read. That person might always just read what
he needs in order to get by and never have a desire to read the
classics or read for pleasure. When a person understands the value
of being able to figure out if he has enough money for two toys or
three and wants to be able to figure change, and when his brain is
ready, he learns to count and add and subtract. He may never feel
the need to learn higher math. When a kid sees the benefit of a tidy
house and when he is ready he will learn to do some things to make
his environment more comfortable. He may never feel the need for
perfect cleanliness and spotless floors or a toilet cleaned every day.
***we ALL abide by it so that we
may live comfortably and without the stench of filth.***
I'm not an ambitious housekeeper. I have pets and pet beds and
litter pans and a pigeon strutting around on my front porch (perched
on a paperback rack right now, his name is Walter) I don't require
chores of my child and we have never even come close to living in
the "stench of filth." Maybe you have fears about what your house
would be like if you didn't have help with the housework but stench
and filth are pretty extreme.<g>
These basic ideas of unschooling - that learning is natural and
doesn't require mom and dad provide lessons and that children are
good people who should be thought well of and treated with generosity
have been written about extensively and are available for you to read
again at www.sandradodd.com/unschooling , at
www.joyfullyrejoycing.com and at www.unschooling.info/articles.htm .
Deb Lewis
wrote about one incident in the light of unschooling. I hope
unschooling parents think about that idea of "just handing" children
money.
Lot's of time parents who write that their kid is part of the family
and so should share part in the housework, don't feel that the kid is
enough a part of the family to share in some pocket money. So I want
to ramble a little about the notion of "just handing" someone money,
which makes it sound very much like they're not honestly worthy of
cash unless the parent gets something out of the deal too.
In my family, my husband has been the wage earner all of Dylan's
(ds's) life. I've made a little money here or there but David has
paid the mortgage and the bills and the big stuff. When I want money
I take it (if we have it<g>) If he ever said to or about me that
instead of "just handing" me money I should think of ways to earn
some I'd be positively snorty and it would not help me think kindly
of him.
It used to be there was a substantial imbalance of power between wage
earning men and non wage earning women in marriage. Women often had
to ask for money for things they needed or wanted that were beyond
the necessities of keeping a home. Imagine if your household had
money but your partner chose instead to teach you a lesson and asked
you to find ways to earn extra money. Would that feel good? Would
your relationship with your partner be helped by his or her efforts
to control and manipulate you?
As I wrote before, I think it's fine to help someone think of ways to
earn money. But not if it's a manipulation to provide a "lesson" one
person (an adult) thinks the other person (a child) should now
learn. I think it's even better for unschooling parents to strive
to reduce or eliminate (if it can be eliminated) the imbalance of
power between our children and ourselves. Help is better than a
lesson. It will help your understanding of unschooling to weigh the
effect and value of trying to teach someone a lesson against the
effect and value of offering honest help and support without
manipulation.
***If unschooling is about learning by experiencing the world, then
why
is helping a child to earn money instead of giving an allowance not a
part of it? ***
Unschooling is partly about understanding that our kids will learn
what they need without us teaching lessons. That's a very basic
concept of unschooling, that learning is natural and does not require
teaching.
Helping a child earn money, if that's what he wants to do, is very
kind and in keeping with the principles of unschooling. Not sharing
family money for the purpose of teaching someone a lesson is not.
***Is it not a fact that when my son becomes a man he will need to
earn a
living? ***
Maybe and maybe not. There are many things we cannot know. I know
three adult men who are husbands and fathers who do not "earn a
living," so it is not a fact that all men need to earn a living.
The world changes fast. There are things we can't conceive of that
our kids will be living with in the future. Life will be different
for them than it is for us.
***Shall I then spare my child from earning money while he is
young and instead give him money over and above what I have already
sacrificed to give him? ***
Why did you use the phrase "spare him?" Helping someone think of
ways to earn money, if that's what they want, no matter their age, is
a nice thing to do. Sharing family money with family members is a
nice thing to do. It is not an either/ or situation. One is not
required to give children money in order to "spare" them the
(apparently hideous necessity? ) of earning money. Nor should a
child have to earn his own money in order to have the things he wants
if other family members have spending money. What is it that you
believe you sacrificed that he is not entitled to as your child? As
parents we get to make all the choices about the way we live with our
children. It will help parents who want to unschool to understand
that the choices they make can build their relationship with their
children or can undermine their relationship. Choices that build our
relationships are better for unschooling.
I hope parents who think of parenting as a sacrifice can change their
thinking and consider the generosity and kindness we show our kids to
be a choice we make that is as much for our emotional well being as
it is our kids. If there are any sacrifices in a parent child
relationship it is almost always the child making sacrifices, having
no choice about being born, about what kind of parents he gets, about
whether he ends up with siblings about what foods are in the house,
and then be subjected to his parents brand of parenting which almost
always includes some system of punishment - taking away his things,
his freedom, etc.
Parents sacrifice my ass. If you don't want your life changed by
kids don't have kids.
***Or should I give him money and have him do
without the things I gave him previously unless he spends the money?
***
Those aren't your only choices.<go> As parents we can make the
choice to be as considerate of our kids as we are of ourselves and
our partners. He could have parents who get him all of what he needs
and as much of what he wants as they can afford AND some spending
money of his own. That's a good option that will show him how to be
generous with his own kids one day. I'm not saying it was a bad idea
to help him start his own business. I'm looking at the other stuff.
That you decided he needed to learn a lesson about money, that you
decided he wasn't worth twenty bucks a month of your own spending
money.
***And what will that do to the attitude of the man I see him rapidly
becoming? ***
He's eleven, right? I think if he lives with generous people who
help him when he needs help and who don't try to manipulate him, he
will be a generous and helpful man.
*** I'm sure you have heard the saying "Give a man a fish; you
have fed him for a day. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for
a lifetime." So which of the two is more generous,***
There's a problem with that saying. <g> Anyone who ever ate a fish
can figure out how to catch a fish. It's not rocket science. It's so
easy even a caveman could do it. <g> And really, if a man came to
your door, hungry would you feed the poor bugger or would you make
him first go earn the money to buy some food to eat? What if it was
Jesus or Buddha or Muhammad? If someone is in need it is NOT more
generous to teach them a lesson than it is to help them
immediately. One of the beautiful things about unschooling is that
it doesn't set a predetermined course and rate of speed for our
kids. We neither hinder nor hurry them. No one needs to learn to
fish at eleven.<g> No one should be prevented from fishing if they
want to, (fishing is metaphor for learning) but the choice to fish
or not to fish should be up to the individual, not the individual's
mom. <g>
(That saying implies a hungry man, with an ocean full of tasty fish
nearby is such a dolt he'd never figure out he could get his own damn
fish if you first gave him a fish. It might sound like something,
but it's crap. (or is that carp?) Hunger isn't caused by a lack of
willingness of hungry people to try to get food.)
"*** Similar to "OK take a step. You can do it. I'll hold your
hands." ***
Sweeping isn't genetically programmed like walking. Mom's don't make
their kids walk by saying a few encouraging words. Some people
might find that sweeping up helps them have a better quality of life
but not all people care about clean or dirty floors. Not all people
live where there are floors to sweep and dishes to wash, but all
people who are physiologically able, walk. Mom's can make their
kids sweep up though, because of that power imbalance mentioned
earlier it can be that kids comply with a parents wishes not because
they see value in the task they've been assigned but because they
feel pressured to do what they're told out of fear of punishment or
some other misery if they don't comply.
A kid can only naturally help with household things if he's free to
help or not help. If a thing is valuable to an individual then that
person will do that thing.
***...since he is a part of the
family then he is a part of the chores which we do together as a
family.***
There's a significant difference. It's the parents set the standards
for cleanliness that they then expect the children to adopt as their
own and live up to. Requiring a child to do chores in a home
selected by the parents to a standard set by the parents is not the
same as the inborn desire and physiological drive of humans to
acquire language and to walk. Maybe he's happy to help out and
never questions your system. But what if he does? If he doesn't
want to clean the toilet next time can he skip it?
Learning is natural but that doesn't mean all things learned have the
same value to the individual. Walking and talking will be valuable
for your son's lifetime. Sweeping may or may not be. The learning
of all those things can be done naturally.
***No one likes to clean the toilet so we each take it in
turns. ***
So because no one likes it everyone has to do it? Would it make
sense to fix a meal you knew absolutely no one would enjoy? Would
you go on vacation to a place no one wanted to go? Would you rent a
movie no one wanted to see? If you believe the toilet must be
maintained at a certain level then take responsibility for that
conviction and be the one to clean the pot. I think of cleaning as a
gift I can give my family, to make our little house of chipping paint
and second hand store furniture a place of peace and comfort. I
worked as a housekeeper in a motel and if there's anything can make
you see cleaning your own bathroom as a very pleasant task it's
cleaning up after a motel full burly hunters who are subsisting for a
week on chewing tobacco and sausages and beer. <g>
***If we didn't organize it that way, then it would never get
cleaned.***
You could clean it. You could hire it cleaned. You could barter it
cleaned. You could trade with a friend who just loves shining
porcelain and do her laundry or mow her lawn. By saying it would
NEVER get cleaned are you telling us that you yourself would refuse
to clean it if it was not your turn and you saw that it was grimy?
Put a bleach disc in the tank. Put a box of premoistened cleaning
towels on the back of the toilet. Every morning when you get up go
wipe off the toilet. It's not a big deal, it takes about one minute,
it gets done every day, you're not making anyone else live up to your
standard for a clean toilet.
My kid helps with some housework too, so I know kids help generously
and willingly. The difference in an unschooling family is that kids
come to help with cleaning because they want to, not because parents
decide they should. The same reasoning applies to chores as applies
to math and reading. When a person sees value in reading and is
ready he will learn to read. That person might always just read what
he needs in order to get by and never have a desire to read the
classics or read for pleasure. When a person understands the value
of being able to figure out if he has enough money for two toys or
three and wants to be able to figure change, and when his brain is
ready, he learns to count and add and subtract. He may never feel
the need to learn higher math. When a kid sees the benefit of a tidy
house and when he is ready he will learn to do some things to make
his environment more comfortable. He may never feel the need for
perfect cleanliness and spotless floors or a toilet cleaned every day.
***we ALL abide by it so that we
may live comfortably and without the stench of filth.***
I'm not an ambitious housekeeper. I have pets and pet beds and
litter pans and a pigeon strutting around on my front porch (perched
on a paperback rack right now, his name is Walter) I don't require
chores of my child and we have never even come close to living in
the "stench of filth." Maybe you have fears about what your house
would be like if you didn't have help with the housework but stench
and filth are pretty extreme.<g>
These basic ideas of unschooling - that learning is natural and
doesn't require mom and dad provide lessons and that children are
good people who should be thought well of and treated with generosity
have been written about extensively and are available for you to read
again at www.sandradodd.com/unschooling , at
www.joyfullyrejoycing.com and at www.unschooling.info/articles.htm .
Deb Lewis
trektheory
--- In [email protected], "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...> wrote:
rocket science easier. He has gone fishing, but not managed the
catching part. When he was younger, a friend of ours took him and his
own son fishing, and ds wasn't getting any nibbles. Saw some other
kids come by and pull 'em out left and right. Friend asked the kids
what they were using as bait -- hot dogs. Friend kindly bought hot
dogs to use -- and ds STILL caught nothing. If ever there were a born
non-fisherman, it's my son!
Rocket science, otoh, well, it ain't brain surgery! :-)
Linda
And really, if a man came to
>Well, a caveman may be able to do it, but I suspect my ds would find
> *** I'm sure you have heard the saying "Give a man a fish; you
> have fed him for a day. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for
> a lifetime." So which of the two is more generous,***
>
> There's a problem with that saying. <g> Anyone who ever ate a fish
> can figure out how to catch a fish. It's not rocket science. It's so
> easy even a caveman could do it. <g>
rocket science easier. He has gone fishing, but not managed the
catching part. When he was younger, a friend of ours took him and his
own son fishing, and ds wasn't getting any nibbles. Saw some other
kids come by and pull 'em out left and right. Friend asked the kids
what they were using as bait -- hot dogs. Friend kindly bought hot
dogs to use -- and ds STILL caught nothing. If ever there were a born
non-fisherman, it's my son!
Rocket science, otoh, well, it ain't brain surgery! :-)
Linda
And really, if a man came to
> your door, hungry would you feed the poor bugger or would you make
> him first go earn the money to buy some food to eat? What if it was
> Jesus or Buddha or Muhammad? If someone is in need it is NOT more
> generous to teach them a lesson than it is to help them
> immediately. One of the beautiful things about unschooling is that
> it doesn't set a predetermined course and rate of speed for our
> kids. We neither hinder nor hurry them. No one needs to learn to
> fish at eleven.<g> No one should be prevented from fishing if they
> want to, (fishing is metaphor for learning) but the choice to fish
> or not to fish should be up to the individual, not the individual's
> mom. <g>
>
> (That saying implies a hungry man, with an ocean full of tasty fish
> nearby is such a dolt he'd never figure out he could get his own damn
> fish if you first gave him a fish. It might sound like something,
> but it's crap. (or is that carp?) Hunger isn't caused by a lack of
> willingness of hungry people to try to get food.)
>
> "*** Similar to "OK take a step. You can do it. I'll hold your
> hands." ***
>
> Sweeping isn't genetically programmed like walking. Mom's don't make
> their kids walk by saying a few encouraging words. Some people
> might find that sweeping up helps them have a better quality of life
> but not all people care about clean or dirty floors. Not all people
> live where there are floors to sweep and dishes to wash, but all
> people who are physiologically able, walk. Mom's can make their
> kids sweep up though, because of that power imbalance mentioned
> earlier it can be that kids comply with a parents wishes not because
> they see value in the task they've been assigned but because they
> feel pressured to do what they're told out of fear of punishment or
> some other misery if they don't comply.
>
> A kid can only naturally help with household things if he's free to
> help or not help. If a thing is valuable to an individual then that
> person will do that thing.
>
> ***...since he is a part of the
> family then he is a part of the chores which we do together as a
> family.***
>
> There's a significant difference. It's the parents set the standards
> for cleanliness that they then expect the children to adopt as their
> own and live up to. Requiring a child to do chores in a home
> selected by the parents to a standard set by the parents is not the
> same as the inborn desire and physiological drive of humans to
> acquire language and to walk. Maybe he's happy to help out and
> never questions your system. But what if he does? If he doesn't
> want to clean the toilet next time can he skip it?
>
> Learning is natural but that doesn't mean all things learned have the
> same value to the individual. Walking and talking will be valuable
> for your son's lifetime. Sweeping may or may not be. The learning
> of all those things can be done naturally.
>
> ***No one likes to clean the toilet so we each take it in
> turns. ***
>
> So because no one likes it everyone has to do it? Would it make
> sense to fix a meal you knew absolutely no one would enjoy? Would
> you go on vacation to a place no one wanted to go? Would you rent a
> movie no one wanted to see? If you believe the toilet must be
> maintained at a certain level then take responsibility for that
> conviction and be the one to clean the pot. I think of cleaning as a
> gift I can give my family, to make our little house of chipping paint
> and second hand store furniture a place of peace and comfort. I
> worked as a housekeeper in a motel and if there's anything can make
> you see cleaning your own bathroom as a very pleasant task it's
> cleaning up after a motel full burly hunters who are subsisting for a
> week on chewing tobacco and sausages and beer. <g>
>
> ***If we didn't organize it that way, then it would never get
> cleaned.***
>
> You could clean it. You could hire it cleaned. You could barter it
> cleaned. You could trade with a friend who just loves shining
> porcelain and do her laundry or mow her lawn. By saying it would
> NEVER get cleaned are you telling us that you yourself would refuse
> to clean it if it was not your turn and you saw that it was grimy?
> Put a bleach disc in the tank. Put a box of premoistened cleaning
> towels on the back of the toilet. Every morning when you get up go
> wipe off the toilet. It's not a big deal, it takes about one minute,
> it gets done every day, you're not making anyone else live up to your
> standard for a clean toilet.
>
> My kid helps with some housework too, so I know kids help generously
> and willingly. The difference in an unschooling family is that kids
> come to help with cleaning because they want to, not because parents
> decide they should. The same reasoning applies to chores as applies
> to math and reading. When a person sees value in reading and is
> ready he will learn to read. That person might always just read what
> he needs in order to get by and never have a desire to read the
> classics or read for pleasure. When a person understands the value
> of being able to figure out if he has enough money for two toys or
> three and wants to be able to figure change, and when his brain is
> ready, he learns to count and add and subtract. He may never feel
> the need to learn higher math. When a kid sees the benefit of a tidy
> house and when he is ready he will learn to do some things to make
> his environment more comfortable. He may never feel the need for
> perfect cleanliness and spotless floors or a toilet cleaned every day.
>
> ***we ALL abide by it so that we
> may live comfortably and without the stench of filth.***
>
> I'm not an ambitious housekeeper. I have pets and pet beds and
> litter pans and a pigeon strutting around on my front porch (perched
> on a paperback rack right now, his name is Walter) I don't require
> chores of my child and we have never even come close to living in
> the "stench of filth." Maybe you have fears about what your house
> would be like if you didn't have help with the housework but stench
> and filth are pretty extreme.<g>
>
> These basic ideas of unschooling - that learning is natural and
> doesn't require mom and dad provide lessons and that children are
> good people who should be thought well of and treated with generosity
> have been written about extensively and are available for you to read
> again at www.sandradodd.com/unschooling , at
> www.joyfullyrejoycing.com and at www.unschooling.info/articles.htm .
>
> Deb Lewis
>
Robert Saxon
Sand,
Thanks for your response! It was really interesting reading all that,
long-winded tho you may have thought it.
First let me say that it sounds like y'all worked hard to make stuff happen
for him and for you. When I look at your description and compare it against
what other more schooly parents do (those who would rather just toss off "We
can't afford it," and end of discussion), I'm going, "Yeah!"
OK, here's the flip-side of my comments. Instead of talking about how much
better that was compared to others, I'm more interested in comparing it
against the goals towards which I'm striving. I'd like to take your
narrative and try to put it into an unschooling context.
Now, dropping into my code-review mentality (I'm a software
tester/programmer by trade), the mantra is, "It's the program, not the
programmer." I'm looking at stuff and commenting on and analyzing it. No
value is being assigned to you or DH or anyone else. I am tossing around
ideas, suggestions or what-ifs.
So now I look at your description and ask some questions. "OK, I see some
real good stuff here, but how could it be more unschool-like? Was DS's
freedom maximized? Were everyone's needs met? Was there too much structure
here? Not enough? How much of the outcome/process was negotiated, and how
much was pre-determined by the parents?" No judgements here, just
deconstructing, looking at, and analyzing. I'll use what I get here for
myself later. Maybe my ramblings will be useful to someone else.
Moving along...
"I think it's even better for unschooling parents to strive
to reduce or eliminate (if it can be eliminated) the imbalance of
power between our children and ourselves."
My kids have been (and are) capable of more than I thought they were. I
find more often than not that it is I who limit them rather than they who
are not ready.
*** Shall I then spare my child from earning money while he is young and
instead give him money over and above what I have already sacrificed to give
him? ***
Hmmm...Well, I see a couple issues here. Hopefully I'm not taking things
out of context.
First, respect for everyone's needs, including yours -- if you can't give it
to him, then you shouldn't be expected to. That's a strong need you have,
and a very real one.
Second, well, why are there only two options (have him earn money at a job
v. give him money on top of what he gets)? Instead of seeing the obvious
either/or, use your own mutual needs as a starting point of negotiation.
Start brainstorming. In addition to opening up even more possibilities,
doing this may also expose other, more deeply-seated needs that trump the
stated ones, and will allow everyone to be even more honest with each other.
(btw, kudos to you and DH for looking at finances, decided that you couldn't
do it, NOT deciding off-handedly that it wasn't going to work. And actually
showing him y'all's finances.)
And this gets into the question, What are his needs? Obviously, he wants
money so he can buy some things on his own. But what will buying his own
stuff give him? Maybe it's a peer pressure thing, a way to be seen as equal
among his friends. Perhaps it's a need to feel more autonomous. His
friends have spending money that gives them a certain amount of "freedom"
which he doesn't have. Now, having money would certainly meet those needs,
but maybe something else would as well.
You may even know the answer to these questions, but perhaps you see my
point. There can be stuff underlying what's presented to us, and it's
important we have as full a picture as possible. Also note that it's
important for you to realize what your true needs are. Bizarre as it may
sound, "being able to pay the bills" may have an underlying need under it.
And it may not be the one you think.
So, if I understand your description, DS had either the option of an
allowance which would be dipped into regularly, or he could come up with a
job.
If it were possible to view parallel universes, it might be interesting to
witness the following scenario:
Present the situation to him. Repeat back to him what you understand his
needs to be, and make sure he agrees with this. Present to him your needs.
State that you know this matters to him, and that you and DH are committed
to working with him on it. Next, ask if he has any ideas about solving this
dilemma (contrast that with overtly suggesting that he find some kind of
job). Perhaps work with him on where to get ideas, if he is open to that.
You might also mention that you and DH have some ideas, and ask if he would
like to hear any them.
Doing all this takes even more time and energy, sure. But it also lets in
more future possibilities, different ideas, etc. (No, I can't think of any,
but that doesn't mean DS can't.) And even if DS would still wind up doing
what he's doing now, there's now even MORE trust and respect in y'all's
relationship than there is currently. It sounds like there's already a good
amount there. Imagine notching it up even more.
And diverging on to the cleanliness issue...
Our children do not always learn the lesson we try to teach. I may be
teaching cleanliness by insisting that my children pick up their toys after
they are done. Perhaps the lesson they are actually learning is that
sometimes Dad is a real jerk, or that Dad can be scary (I'm not always
calm), and to be afraid of him. What's the moral of the story of "The Boy
Who Cried Wolf"? "Don't tell lies"? Or "Don't tell the same lie twice?"
--Rob
DH to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (getting close to 6) and Elissa (almost 4.5).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for your response! It was really interesting reading all that,
long-winded tho you may have thought it.
First let me say that it sounds like y'all worked hard to make stuff happen
for him and for you. When I look at your description and compare it against
what other more schooly parents do (those who would rather just toss off "We
can't afford it," and end of discussion), I'm going, "Yeah!"
OK, here's the flip-side of my comments. Instead of talking about how much
better that was compared to others, I'm more interested in comparing it
against the goals towards which I'm striving. I'd like to take your
narrative and try to put it into an unschooling context.
Now, dropping into my code-review mentality (I'm a software
tester/programmer by trade), the mantra is, "It's the program, not the
programmer." I'm looking at stuff and commenting on and analyzing it. No
value is being assigned to you or DH or anyone else. I am tossing around
ideas, suggestions or what-ifs.
So now I look at your description and ask some questions. "OK, I see some
real good stuff here, but how could it be more unschool-like? Was DS's
freedom maximized? Were everyone's needs met? Was there too much structure
here? Not enough? How much of the outcome/process was negotiated, and how
much was pre-determined by the parents?" No judgements here, just
deconstructing, looking at, and analyzing. I'll use what I get here for
myself later. Maybe my ramblings will be useful to someone else.
Moving along...
"I think it's even better for unschooling parents to strive
to reduce or eliminate (if it can be eliminated) the imbalance of
power between our children and ourselves."
My kids have been (and are) capable of more than I thought they were. I
find more often than not that it is I who limit them rather than they who
are not ready.
*** Shall I then spare my child from earning money while he is young and
instead give him money over and above what I have already sacrificed to give
him? ***
Hmmm...Well, I see a couple issues here. Hopefully I'm not taking things
out of context.
First, respect for everyone's needs, including yours -- if you can't give it
to him, then you shouldn't be expected to. That's a strong need you have,
and a very real one.
Second, well, why are there only two options (have him earn money at a job
v. give him money on top of what he gets)? Instead of seeing the obvious
either/or, use your own mutual needs as a starting point of negotiation.
Start brainstorming. In addition to opening up even more possibilities,
doing this may also expose other, more deeply-seated needs that trump the
stated ones, and will allow everyone to be even more honest with each other.
(btw, kudos to you and DH for looking at finances, decided that you couldn't
do it, NOT deciding off-handedly that it wasn't going to work. And actually
showing him y'all's finances.)
And this gets into the question, What are his needs? Obviously, he wants
money so he can buy some things on his own. But what will buying his own
stuff give him? Maybe it's a peer pressure thing, a way to be seen as equal
among his friends. Perhaps it's a need to feel more autonomous. His
friends have spending money that gives them a certain amount of "freedom"
which he doesn't have. Now, having money would certainly meet those needs,
but maybe something else would as well.
You may even know the answer to these questions, but perhaps you see my
point. There can be stuff underlying what's presented to us, and it's
important we have as full a picture as possible. Also note that it's
important for you to realize what your true needs are. Bizarre as it may
sound, "being able to pay the bills" may have an underlying need under it.
And it may not be the one you think.
So, if I understand your description, DS had either the option of an
allowance which would be dipped into regularly, or he could come up with a
job.
If it were possible to view parallel universes, it might be interesting to
witness the following scenario:
Present the situation to him. Repeat back to him what you understand his
needs to be, and make sure he agrees with this. Present to him your needs.
State that you know this matters to him, and that you and DH are committed
to working with him on it. Next, ask if he has any ideas about solving this
dilemma (contrast that with overtly suggesting that he find some kind of
job). Perhaps work with him on where to get ideas, if he is open to that.
You might also mention that you and DH have some ideas, and ask if he would
like to hear any them.
Doing all this takes even more time and energy, sure. But it also lets in
more future possibilities, different ideas, etc. (No, I can't think of any,
but that doesn't mean DS can't.) And even if DS would still wind up doing
what he's doing now, there's now even MORE trust and respect in y'all's
relationship than there is currently. It sounds like there's already a good
amount there. Imagine notching it up even more.
And diverging on to the cleanliness issue...
Our children do not always learn the lesson we try to teach. I may be
teaching cleanliness by insisting that my children pick up their toys after
they are done. Perhaps the lesson they are actually learning is that
sometimes Dad is a real jerk, or that Dad can be scary (I'm not always
calm), and to be afraid of him. What's the moral of the story of "The Boy
Who Cried Wolf"? "Don't tell lies"? Or "Don't tell the same lie twice?"
--Rob
DH to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Genevieve (getting close to 6) and Elissa (almost 4.5).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~If it were possible to view parallel universes, it might be
interesting to witness the following scenario: Present the situation
to him. Repeat back to him what you understand his needs to be, and
make sure he agrees with this. Present to him your needs. State that
you know this matters to him, and that you and DH are committed
to working with him on it. Next, ask if he has any ideas about solving
this dilemma (contrast that with overtly suggesting that he find some
kind of job). Perhaps work with him on where to get ideas, if he is
open to that. You might also mention that you and DH have some ideas,
and ask if he would like to hear any them.~~
Holy crikey Rob!! When are you going to present a workshop at a
conference? :)
That was awesome.
I think you said everything I wanted to say and more, so I'm not even
going to respond at this point.
I just want to say that I think it's awesome to empower your children
to make their own money, but it's also great to examine our ideas
surrounding these issues just as Deb and Rob outlined.
When anything comes up where I'm feeling "put out" or "used" I try to
really examine where it's coming from because my kids and I are in
partnership in this journey. The feelings aren't usually about the
situation right in front of me...it's old baggage. Who cleans the
toilet is less important to me than how everyone feels about it.
Funny thing, none of us mind cleaning the toilet and it's such a silly
job to even focus on. My kids LOVE cleaning the toilet much to my
dismay at times.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
interesting to witness the following scenario: Present the situation
to him. Repeat back to him what you understand his needs to be, and
make sure he agrees with this. Present to him your needs. State that
you know this matters to him, and that you and DH are committed
to working with him on it. Next, ask if he has any ideas about solving
this dilemma (contrast that with overtly suggesting that he find some
kind of job). Perhaps work with him on where to get ideas, if he is
open to that. You might also mention that you and DH have some ideas,
and ask if he would like to hear any them.~~
Holy crikey Rob!! When are you going to present a workshop at a
conference? :)
That was awesome.
I think you said everything I wanted to say and more, so I'm not even
going to respond at this point.
I just want to say that I think it's awesome to empower your children
to make their own money, but it's also great to examine our ideas
surrounding these issues just as Deb and Rob outlined.
When anything comes up where I'm feeling "put out" or "used" I try to
really examine where it's coming from because my kids and I are in
partnership in this journey. The feelings aren't usually about the
situation right in front of me...it's old baggage. Who cleans the
toilet is less important to me than how everyone feels about it.
Funny thing, none of us mind cleaning the toilet and it's such a silly
job to even focus on. My kids LOVE cleaning the toilet much to my
dismay at times.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 7, 2007, at 9:37 AM, Deb Lewis wrote:
to feed themselves?
Why not feed them *and* show them how to feed themselves if they'd
like to learn?
Or, in the case of my daughter, just feed in an atmosphere where she
can learn? Which is where the analogy breaks down. We brought our
children into the world through our own choices. Part of bringing
them into the world is meeting their needs. We don't have the same
obligation to a hungry stranger who knocks on our door.
We've always been generous with Kat, helping her get what she wanted.
When she was young she wanted a lot! ;-) Starting at 14 it was tough
for her to come up with a list of things to buy her for presents. She
has also expressed the desire to spend her own money on what she
wants rather than me paying for it. I didn't teach her either of
those things. Though I did model generosity. And she has grown and
now has the needs of a 16 yo rather than the needs of a 7 or 10 or 13
yo.
We do our kids a disservice if we extrapolate their current wants and
needs onto their future adult selves. 10 yos have 10 yo needs. Their
10 yo needs aren't something they need trained out of in order to
become decent adults. We didn't need to train them to stop eating
with their fingers (though I'm sure plenty of parents are certain
they did!), or to stop crawling, or stop crying when they fall, or
stop playing video games as soon as they crawl out of bed.
We model generosity. We treat them with respect. And their needs
evolve and change without being unnaturally dragged forward into a
later age because they're still unmet.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> And really, if a man came toAnd are the only two choices to either feed someone or teach them how
> your door, hungry would you feed the poor bugger or would you make
> him first go earn the money to buy some food to eat?
to feed themselves?
Why not feed them *and* show them how to feed themselves if they'd
like to learn?
Or, in the case of my daughter, just feed in an atmosphere where she
can learn? Which is where the analogy breaks down. We brought our
children into the world through our own choices. Part of bringing
them into the world is meeting their needs. We don't have the same
obligation to a hungry stranger who knocks on our door.
We've always been generous with Kat, helping her get what she wanted.
When she was young she wanted a lot! ;-) Starting at 14 it was tough
for her to come up with a list of things to buy her for presents. She
has also expressed the desire to spend her own money on what she
wants rather than me paying for it. I didn't teach her either of
those things. Though I did model generosity. And she has grown and
now has the needs of a 16 yo rather than the needs of a 7 or 10 or 13
yo.
We do our kids a disservice if we extrapolate their current wants and
needs onto their future adult selves. 10 yos have 10 yo needs. Their
10 yo needs aren't something they need trained out of in order to
become decent adults. We didn't need to train them to stop eating
with their fingers (though I'm sure plenty of parents are certain
they did!), or to stop crawling, or stop crying when they fall, or
stop playing video games as soon as they crawl out of bed.
We model generosity. We treat them with respect. And their needs
evolve and change without being unnaturally dragged forward into a
later age because they're still unmet.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***And are the only two choices to either feed someone or teach them
how
to feed themselves?***
If we're talking about eating (and we're not<g>) But if we were, I
think if that guy knows to go to someone's door and ask for food he
*does* know how to feed himself. <g> If it works. ; )
There are more socially acceptable and respected methods of taking
care of oneself (and they sometimes don't work either, I got fired
from a job when I was eighteen) but going to the place where there is
food and asking for some doesn't always equal not knowing how to feed
oneself.
If we're talking about learning (and we are) then it's an important
point Joyce makes that a child doesn't need to be trained into his
future adult self.
I work two days a week now doing weddings and funerals and holiday
and corporate floral arrangements. When I was a young'un my parents
never would have believed that anyone could decide which days they
wanted to work each week, or could earn any money that way. If dh
David was out of the picture (chopped to bits, his body hidden 'neath
the house) Dylan and I could get by on those two days a week. If we
wanted extra stuff (calcium oxide, attorney's fees) I'd want to work
an extra day, yes, but there is no way my parents would have believed
it was possible a woman could support herself and kid with only a
couple days work each week and not be a prostitute. <g>
Kids naturally learn to take part in some way in the things other
humans are doing and parents can't know for sure what the future will
hold and those are two good arguments (but not the only two! <g>)
against training (or trying to train) kids to be good future
workers.
Deb Lewis
how
to feed themselves?***
If we're talking about eating (and we're not<g>) But if we were, I
think if that guy knows to go to someone's door and ask for food he
*does* know how to feed himself. <g> If it works. ; )
There are more socially acceptable and respected methods of taking
care of oneself (and they sometimes don't work either, I got fired
from a job when I was eighteen) but going to the place where there is
food and asking for some doesn't always equal not knowing how to feed
oneself.
If we're talking about learning (and we are) then it's an important
point Joyce makes that a child doesn't need to be trained into his
future adult self.
I work two days a week now doing weddings and funerals and holiday
and corporate floral arrangements. When I was a young'un my parents
never would have believed that anyone could decide which days they
wanted to work each week, or could earn any money that way. If dh
David was out of the picture (chopped to bits, his body hidden 'neath
the house) Dylan and I could get by on those two days a week. If we
wanted extra stuff (calcium oxide, attorney's fees) I'd want to work
an extra day, yes, but there is no way my parents would have believed
it was possible a woman could support herself and kid with only a
couple days work each week and not be a prostitute. <g>
Kids naturally learn to take part in some way in the things other
humans are doing and parents can't know for sure what the future will
hold and those are two good arguments (but not the only two! <g>)
against training (or trying to train) kids to be good future
workers.
Deb Lewis
Deb Lewis
*** He has gone fishing, but not managed the
catching part. When he was younger, a friend of ours took him and his
own son fishing, and ds wasn't getting any nibbles. Saw some other
kids come by and pull 'em out left and right. Friend asked the kids
what they were using as bait -- hot dogs. Friend kindly bought hot
dogs to use -- and ds STILL caught nothing. If ever there were a born
non-fisherman, it's my son!***
My husband loves flyfishing but is not as successful catching fish as
his favorite fishing companion, his brother in law. He looks pretty
doing it though. <g> But David releases the fish he does catch and
cuts the barbs off his hooks to make it less likely that he'll
critically injure the fish. He's ok with not catching as many
fish. He had a fish on once, on the Little Blackfoot, and a bear
came skipping out of the woods to help him. Is that the bear
equivalent of asking for a fish? David was more than happy to let the
bear have his fish. It never occurred to him to try to teach the bear
how to catch his own. (The fish and the bear get bigger as the years
go by)
We knew a guy in Alaska (who eventually became a guide on the Kenai
river) but who used to snag fish. He caught a lot! So, he could
feed himself, but it wasn't legal<g>
***Rocket science, otoh, well, it ain't brain surgery! :-)***
Coffee came right out my nose!
Dylan and I have attempted some form of rocket science in the
backyard with limited success. I haven't yet attempted brain surgery
but I'm willing. Eager even!<g> I don't fish at all and don't want
to.
When Dylan was little he had a doctor's kit. It had a little vinyl
apron with internal organs printed on. He used to put the apron on
the dog and operate on her. That poor dog must have had a miraculous
regenerating liver because she had it removed more times than I can
count. She never had brain surgery though, to my knowledge.
Deb Lewis
catching part. When he was younger, a friend of ours took him and his
own son fishing, and ds wasn't getting any nibbles. Saw some other
kids come by and pull 'em out left and right. Friend asked the kids
what they were using as bait -- hot dogs. Friend kindly bought hot
dogs to use -- and ds STILL caught nothing. If ever there were a born
non-fisherman, it's my son!***
My husband loves flyfishing but is not as successful catching fish as
his favorite fishing companion, his brother in law. He looks pretty
doing it though. <g> But David releases the fish he does catch and
cuts the barbs off his hooks to make it less likely that he'll
critically injure the fish. He's ok with not catching as many
fish. He had a fish on once, on the Little Blackfoot, and a bear
came skipping out of the woods to help him. Is that the bear
equivalent of asking for a fish? David was more than happy to let the
bear have his fish. It never occurred to him to try to teach the bear
how to catch his own. (The fish and the bear get bigger as the years
go by)
We knew a guy in Alaska (who eventually became a guide on the Kenai
river) but who used to snag fish. He caught a lot! So, he could
feed himself, but it wasn't legal<g>
***Rocket science, otoh, well, it ain't brain surgery! :-)***
Coffee came right out my nose!
Dylan and I have attempted some form of rocket science in the
backyard with limited success. I haven't yet attempted brain surgery
but I'm willing. Eager even!<g> I don't fish at all and don't want
to.
When Dylan was little he had a doctor's kit. It had a little vinyl
apron with internal organs printed on. He used to put the apron on
the dog and operate on her. That poor dog must have had a miraculous
regenerating liver because she had it removed more times than I can
count. She never had brain surgery though, to my knowledge.
Deb Lewis
hbmccarty
>Kids naturally learn to take part in some way in the things otherDeb Lewis
>humans are doing and parents can't know for sure what the future will
>hold and those are two good arguments (but not the only two! <g>)
>against training (or trying to train) kids to be good future
>workers.
Deb, this is a great point. Where this thread started was with my son
who without any training at all to be a good worker somehow managed to
be the best youth worker even seen at his place of work this summer,
because he chose to be there and didn't have loads of other stuff in his
head about how he should hate it because it is work, and so could be
responsive to the situation and what was needed. My kids both have an
intense desire to be part of the earning and spending of money. I can't
even imagine them not choosing to participate in some way in the myriad
of ways people earn money. So often parents worry that their children
will grow up and never get up off the couch and get a job if they aren't
forced. Maybe this is partly because so many parents hate the way they
themselves have chosen to earn money. I have heard it is a trend for
parents to continue to be involved in forcing their kids to work, even
to the point of setting up job interviews for them after college.
I have to say that often the way I earn money(working for my dad's
business, designing labels for organic growers) seems way more fun to me
than many of the things I am asked to do that are meant to be just for
fun(such as going to a party with a lot of people I barely know who
aren't all that friendly). Working to earn money and learning and having
fun are not exclusive of each other. Learning that they are might be one
of the more harmful possible results of being schooled.
Heather
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _,___
trektheory
--- In [email protected], "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...> wrote:
When my ds was 2ish, he was once listening to dh's heart, and said,
"Wanna take it out and look at it!" Dh explained that the heart had
to stay inside, that sometimes a surgeon can take a heart out to work
on it -- at which point ds said, "And he would use a knife!"
Dh's heart is still in his chest.
Linda
>Well, thank goodness for THAT!
> My husband loves flyfishing ... He looks pretty
> doing it though. <g>
> ***Rocket science, otoh, well, it ain't brain surgery! :-)***Interesting imagery...
>
> Coffee came right out my nose!
> When Dylan was little he had a doctor's kit. It had a little vinylLucky dog...
> apron with internal organs printed on. He used to put the apron on
> the dog and operate on her. That poor dog must have had a miraculous
> regenerating liver because she had it removed more times than I can
> count. She never had brain surgery though, to my knowledge.
When my ds was 2ish, he was once listening to dh's heart, and said,
"Wanna take it out and look at it!" Dh explained that the heart had
to stay inside, that sometimes a surgeon can take a heart out to work
on it -- at which point ds said, "And he would use a knife!"
Dh's heart is still in his chest.
Linda
trektheory
--- In [email protected], hbmccarty <hbmccarty@...> wrote:
want to be doing. I always liked that. (Might've been Heinlein, but
I won't swear to it.)
Linda
>Where this thread started was with my sonhis
> who without any training at all to be a good worker somehow managed to
> be the best youth worker even seen at his place of work this summer,
> because he chose to be there and didn't have loads of other stuff in
> head about how he should hate it because it is work,Can't remember where, but I once read that the best play is work you
want to be doing. I always liked that. (Might've been Heinlein, but
I won't swear to it.)
Linda
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "castlecarver"
<artist@...> wrote:
he not very verbal? There are things I don't tend to discuss with my
dd(6) because she's not terribly verbal, but I do try to involve her
in family processes as much as possible. In a general sense, she
knows how much money we have to spend on non-essentials at any given
time bc its something we refer to regularly. The economics of the
household are something we involve her in to the extent that she's
capable of understanding and/or interested in. It wouldn't occur to
me to go away from her to converse about finances, although she
might get tired of my discussion with George about the details and
wander off to do her own thing and ask for a synopis later.
My stepson is older, but a new addition to the family, so we've been
sort of fumbling along trying to figure out how to include him in
our financial decisions. Its challenging bc his input was never
sought in the past - he lacks a whole lot of tools in this area,
including the tools to discuss the matter without belittling his own
wants and needs. Offerring him an allowance has been one way to help
him start to develop some of those tools without dumping him into
the deep end, so to speak.
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't do xyz, just throwing out
some different (possibly) dynamics and ways of thinking.
reason for the three things and three days, though? Was he in a
hurry? Could you have offered him some of your personal spending
money for a month or two to figure this out? It sounds as though
y'all found a solution that everyone in the family is happy with,
and I'm not trying to put that down, but certainly my stepson would
be overwhelmed by that kind of pressure - his background and
personality just wouldn't support that kind of problem solving.
My 6yo frequently comes up with plans to make money. She's very
active and experimental, so we work toward letting her try these out
whenever possible - she wants to be involved in the finances
directly if she can be. Its part of her life, after all. Again, I'm
not saying you should or shouldn't do anything in particular, just
painting a different picture. There doesn't *have* to be a sudden
conversation of "mom, can I have an allowance?" any more than we
have to sit our kids down and talk about the Constitution or the
birds and the bees. Finances can be one of the many topics that
swirl through our daily life.
philosophy than unschooling. I want to be really clear about that.
There really isn't anything natural about creating obstacles and
setting projects for the sake of our kids learning a lesson, and I
want to talk about this and the next bit from that angle. This
certainly *is* me saying "don't do xyz" - not simply bc "its not
unschooling dogma" but bc I honestly don't believe these kinds of
contrived lessons are useful.
Why not just give him the money, *especially* as y'all don't like
loans in general? Besides being contradictory to your own, stated
philosophy, in the real world there are grants, inheritances, and
outright gifts available. I just went to the L&L conference on a
scholarship plus a gift from a family member - I'm very grateful!
but it has taken me years to let go of my idea that "I don't just
want to be handed money". I've certainly given other people money,
time, food, housing and the use of my posessions on more than one
occasion, but I had an enormous amount of baggage around the idea of
being the recipient of others' generosity. That has held me back
more than once in my life.
money to get over some personal financial hump, would you ask him to
write you a proposal? Maybe y'all would create a paper contract, but
chances are the conversation with that friend would *be* the
proposal. When George wanted to buy a new truck recently he went to
the bank and talked to a loan officer. That conversation was his
proposal. There was some paperwork, but the loan officer walked him
through it. My dd has been to the bank on more than one occasion and
has seen me and her dad chat with loan officers. She's not much
interested in the percentage rates of our various loans, but she has
a basic grasp of what borrowing money looks like in the real world.
It frequently looks more like a conversation than a piece of paper.
If someone I cared about needed help writing a proposal to get a
loan (or grant), I'd help that person find the resources he or she
needed to write the best proposal possible. It probably wouldn't be
me, but I know who to ask. Its good to be able to utilize human
resources in that way, but mom having kid write a proposal as a
project doesn't necessarily give the kid the skills to know how to
utilize any resource other than mom. It really doesn't promote
independence in the way I think you hoped.
meant to be belittling, although I realize it may sound that way.
Part of unschooling is helping our kids to shine in whatever they
choose to do, and it sounds as though your son is shining brightly
in his endeavors, with y'all's support. From an unschooling
perspective, the shine is what's important. Of course, its easy to
see a shiny kid in the midst of success. Where it gets challenging
is at the transitions and times of struggle - those are where we can
choose to focus on lessons for the future, or helping our kids to
shine right now, and carry that shine into whatever the future may
bring.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
<artist@...> wrote:
>> My Answer. "Hmm let me discuss this with Pop."afford
>
> In our private discussion we decided that not only could we not
> it and still support our boy's bike racing sport, this would be anthe
> opportunity to help him to become more independent and learn about
> economics of the household.I wonder why y'all had to discuss it separately from your son - is
he not very verbal? There are things I don't tend to discuss with my
dd(6) because she's not terribly verbal, but I do try to involve her
in family processes as much as possible. In a general sense, she
knows how much money we have to spend on non-essentials at any given
time bc its something we refer to regularly. The economics of the
household are something we involve her in to the extent that she's
capable of understanding and/or interested in. It wouldn't occur to
me to go away from her to converse about finances, although she
might get tired of my discussion with George about the details and
wander off to do her own thing and ask for a synopis later.
My stepson is older, but a new addition to the family, so we've been
sort of fumbling along trying to figure out how to include him in
our financial decisions. Its challenging bc his input was never
sought in the past - he lacks a whole lot of tools in this area,
including the tools to discuss the matter without belittling his own
wants and needs. Offerring him an allowance has been one way to help
him start to develop some of those tools without dumping him into
the deep end, so to speak.
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't do xyz, just throwing out
some different (possibly) dynamics and ways of thinking.
> Or we could help him find a way to make up a job for himself toearn
> his own money just as each of us made up our own jobs. We told himto
> think of 3 things that he thought he would like to try and we wouldYou obviously gave this a Lot of careful consideration! Is there a
> see how we could help. We gave him 3 days to research each idea.
>
reason for the three things and three days, though? Was he in a
hurry? Could you have offered him some of your personal spending
money for a month or two to figure this out? It sounds as though
y'all found a solution that everyone in the family is happy with,
and I'm not trying to put that down, but certainly my stepson would
be overwhelmed by that kind of pressure - his background and
personality just wouldn't support that kind of problem solving.
My 6yo frequently comes up with plans to make money. She's very
active and experimental, so we work toward letting her try these out
whenever possible - she wants to be involved in the finances
directly if she can be. Its part of her life, after all. Again, I'm
not saying you should or shouldn't do anything in particular, just
painting a different picture. There doesn't *have* to be a sudden
conversation of "mom, can I have an allowance?" any more than we
have to sit our kids down and talk about the Constitution or the
birds and the bees. Finances can be one of the many topics that
swirl through our daily life.
> Now we explained that he would need some cash to bid on items andpay
> for any fee at flea markets when he sold those items. And that weWhat you describe in this section is more of a "teachable moment"
> would loan him the money.
philosophy than unschooling. I want to be really clear about that.
There really isn't anything natural about creating obstacles and
setting projects for the sake of our kids learning a lesson, and I
want to talk about this and the next bit from that angle. This
certainly *is* me saying "don't do xyz" - not simply bc "its not
unschooling dogma" but bc I honestly don't believe these kinds of
contrived lessons are useful.
Why not just give him the money, *especially* as y'all don't like
loans in general? Besides being contradictory to your own, stated
philosophy, in the real world there are grants, inheritances, and
outright gifts available. I just went to the L&L conference on a
scholarship plus a gift from a family member - I'm very grateful!
but it has taken me years to let go of my idea that "I don't just
want to be handed money". I've certainly given other people money,
time, food, housing and the use of my posessions on more than one
occasion, but I had an enormous amount of baggage around the idea of
being the recipient of others' generosity. That has held me back
more than once in my life.
> We explainedto
> that in the real world when he needed money for a business loan, he
> would need to write a proposal that explained just what he planned
> do with the money and how he would run his business.In the real world, if a friend you respected needed a little bit of
money to get over some personal financial hump, would you ask him to
write you a proposal? Maybe y'all would create a paper contract, but
chances are the conversation with that friend would *be* the
proposal. When George wanted to buy a new truck recently he went to
the bank and talked to a loan officer. That conversation was his
proposal. There was some paperwork, but the loan officer walked him
through it. My dd has been to the bank on more than one occasion and
has seen me and her dad chat with loan officers. She's not much
interested in the percentage rates of our various loans, but she has
a basic grasp of what borrowing money looks like in the real world.
It frequently looks more like a conversation than a piece of paper.
If someone I cared about needed help writing a proposal to get a
loan (or grant), I'd help that person find the resources he or she
needed to write the best proposal possible. It probably wouldn't be
me, but I know who to ask. Its good to be able to utilize human
resources in that way, but mom having kid write a proposal as a
project doesn't necessarily give the kid the skills to know how to
utilize any resource other than mom. It really doesn't promote
independence in the way I think you hoped.
> So that is the story of how we lead our son into being a right goodIts wonderful that your son is enjoying his enterprise. That's not
> businessman. We've made quite a friends in the process.
meant to be belittling, although I realize it may sound that way.
Part of unschooling is helping our kids to shine in whatever they
choose to do, and it sounds as though your son is shining brightly
in his endeavors, with y'all's support. From an unschooling
perspective, the shine is what's important. Of course, its easy to
see a shiny kid in the midst of success. Where it gets challenging
is at the transitions and times of struggle - those are where we can
choose to focus on lessons for the future, or helping our kids to
shine right now, and carry that shine into whatever the future may
bring.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
On the way home from L&L, I wondered why Mo was taking soooooo long at
the rest area, only to discover her cleaning the toilet!
Unschoolers....go figure.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>> Funny thing, none of us mind cleaning the toilet and it's such asilly
> job to even focus on. My kids LOVE cleaning the toilet much to mySNORT!
> dismay at times.:)
>
On the way home from L&L, I wondered why Mo was taking soooooo long at
the rest area, only to discover her cleaning the toilet!
Unschoolers....go figure.
---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 13)
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/11/2007 9:25:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
On the way home from L&L, I wondered why Mo was taking soooooo long at
the rest area, only to discover her cleaning the toilet!
Unschoolers.Unschoolers.<WB<<<<<<<,
OK so if you ever feel like traveling my house is available.
;-)
Pam G
Visit my blog: http://gentlegull.blogspot.com/
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
On the way home from L&L, I wondered why Mo was taking soooooo long at
the rest area, only to discover her cleaning the toilet!
Unschoolers.Unschoolers.<WB<<<<<<<,
OK so if you ever feel like traveling my house is available.
;-)
Pam G
Visit my blog: http://gentlegull.blogspot.com/
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]